67. 英德关系

他是个秘密的天主教徒。

He was a kind of crypto Catholic.

他的弟弟詹姆斯二世继承了查理二世的王位，是个公开的天主教徒，这引发了新教徒的全面崩溃。

His brother, James the second, who succeeds Charles the second, is an open Catholic, and that then precipitates a Protestant meltdown.

于是就有了1688年的光荣革命。

And so you have the glorious revolution of sixteen eighty eight.

威廉三世来自

William the third comes from

荷兰。

Holland.

来自荷兰。

From from The Netherlands.

是的。

Yep.

和他的妻子玛丽一起。

With his wife, Mary.

玛丽的妹妹安妮随后继位，但他们都没有子嗣。

Mary's sister Anne then follows, but neither of them have children.

因此，英国面临着一个难题：我们该选谁当国王？

And so Britain faces the problem of of of what king do we get?

我们去哪里找一个新教君主？

Where do we get a Protestant monarchy?

于是他们转向索菲亚，她的儿子乔治——汉诺威选帝侯——前来继位，成为乔治一世。

And so they turn to Sophia, whose whose son, George, who is the electorate of Hanover, comes over and becomes George the first.

是的。

Yeah.

这绝对是一个划时代的时刻，不是吗？

This is absolutely seismic moment, isn't it?

我的意思是

I mean

因此，十八世纪的汉诺威时代，英国与德国的关系完全交织在一起。

So the eighteenth century, the Hanoverian age, the relations of Britain and Germany are are completely intertwined.

让我感到惊讶的是，我们总是认为乔治们非常沉闷，而事实上，早期的乔治们确实如此。

And one thing that surprises me about this is that, if we always think of the Georges as terribly stolid, and and in many ways, they were the early Georges.

但当乔治一世出现时，整个英格兰爆发了大规模的暴乱。

But when George the first pitches up, there are colossal riots all across England.

在他加冕日，1714年10月20日，你提到了伯明翰。

So on his coronation day, 10/20/1714, you mentioned Birmingham.

显然，伯明翰在遭受鲁珀特亲王袭击后已经重建，但也许人们仍未原谅德国人这种行为。

So clearly, Birmingham has rebuilt itself after being attacked by prince Rupert, but perhaps it's not forgiven, the Germans for this behavior.

因为在伯明翰发生了大规模的暴乱。

Because there's these massive riots in Birmingham.

人们四处高喊：杀死那个老流氓，把所有圆头党都干掉。

People are going around shouting, kill the old rogue, kill them all down with the round heads.

显然，‘圆头党’并不是指德国人——德国人应该是方头党，对吧？

Now the round heads are obviously not talking about Germans with sort of German that's that's that's the square heads, isn't it?

这是第一次世界大战时对德国人的嘲讽吗？

The first World War mockery of the Germans?

但他们谈论的是，乔治一世得到了辉格党的支持，这些辉格党人是17世纪中期革命的继承者，是议会派的后裔，我想。

But they're talking George the first has been championed by the Whigs, by the the sort of inheritors of the of the revolution of the mid seventeenth century, by the sort of descendants of the parliamentarians, I suppose.

还有这些大规模的乔治事件。

And there's these colossal George.

他们实际上并没有真正压制住这些骚乱。

They they actually don't really manage to clamp down on this.

很多人没有受到惩罚，因为支持者太多了。

They don't the a lot of people don't get punished because the rights are so widespread.

但乔治以他沉稳的日耳曼式态度对此置之不理。

But George just sort of ignores them in his stolid Teutonic way.

你知道吗，乔治？

And you know what, George?

有一件事让我非常惊讶。

Something that greatly surprised me.

他非常欣赏双关语。

He was a big admirer of double entendres.

是吗？

Was he?

对。

Yeah.

但不是用英语，显然，因为他不会说。

But not but not in English, obviously, because he didn't speak.

不会德语。

No German.

嗯，我觉得这一点其实是有争议的。

Well, I think this is this is contested, actually.

有些人说他实际上会说的英语比以前认为的要多一些，但他确实喜欢粗俗的幽默。

Some people say he actually spoke a bit more English than was previously thought, But he did like bawdy humor.

他非常……而且当时有很多传言，说他带来了许多德国情妇之类的人。

He was a very and and there was a lot of talk that he was sort of bringing over all these German mistresses and things.

所以我觉得他有点像德国版的西德·詹姆斯。

So I think maybe he's a sort of German Sid James.

也许这就是方式。

Maybe that's the way.

你的西德·詹姆斯式的笑？

That your Sid James laugh?

但我喜欢把‘倒地的圆头’当作口号来喊。

But I like I I like I like down with the round heads as a chant.

你会不会

Will you will

我不会喊这个，因为我就是圆头。

I wouldn't chant that because I'm a round head.

但是

But

我能想象你坐在看台上对着德国队喊这个。

I can imagine you sit on the terraces shouting that at the German team.

是的。

Yeah.

天哪。

Gosh.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Definitely.

基于历史背景的助威口号。

Historically informed chants.

是的。

Yeah.

而且他当然带来了亨德尔，那位伟大的，你知道的，那种

And he, of course, brings over Handel, the great, you know, the the sort of

伟大的奴隶。

The great slaver.

嗯，是的。

That well, yes.

英国音乐的巨擘，乔治·弗雷德里克·亨德尔。

The titanic figure of English music, George Frederick handle Handel.

当然，这些十八世纪英国音乐的伟大时刻，其实都源自德国。

And these sorts of great moments of English eighteenth century music are, of course, German.

因此，这开启了一段浪漫的渊源。

So that sort of kick starts a romance.

是乔治二世，对吧？

And it's George George the second, isn't he?

他站了起来。

He stands.

他聆听《弥赛亚》，听到了《哈利路亚》合唱。

He he listens to, to the Messiah, and he hears the Alleluia chorus.

他被深深打动，于是站起身来鼓掌。

And he's so struck by it that he stands up and applauds.

这是个动人的故事。

That's a nice story.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，现在去听《弥赛亚》时站起来已经成为一种传统了。

And I think that that that that's it's now the tradition when you go to the Messiah that you stand up.

真的吗？

Really?

哈利路亚合唱段。

The Alleluia chorus.

你可不想搞错吧？

You don't wanna get that wrong, do you?

你可不想说你在为《无》鼓掌吧。

You don't wanna say that you're applauding No.

其他人也没有。

No one else.

是的。

Yeah.

但如果你是国王，你就可以这么做。

But if but if you're the king, you can do that.

而且，当然，乔治二世另一件著名的事是，他是最后一位亲自率军出征的英国君主。

And, also, of course, George the second other great famous thing about George the second is that, he's the last British monarch to lead an army.

是在德国的迪特林根战役，对吧？

In Germany at the battle of Dettingen, isn't it?

是的。

Yes.

他在那里差点输掉战役。

Where he almost loses.

我的意思是，他是个糟糕的将军。

I mean, he's he's a terrible general.

嗯，这显然是一种主题，因为这一定与德意志传统有关，因为鲁珀特亲王也是如此。

Well well, that's obviously a theme because that's just that's must be some there must be something Germanic in that because that's Prince Rupert as well.

但这本身也是一个有趣的故事。

But that's an interesting story in itself.

所以，我们显然做过关于七年战争的播客，对吧？

So that obviously often we did the Seven Years' War and podcast, didn't we?

在讲述十八世纪英国崛起和扩张的整个故事中，常常被忽略的一点是，我们始终深度参与着欧洲事务。

And one thing that's often lost from all of this sort of story of eighteenth century Britain as it becomes and Britain's expansion is that we are involved in Europe the whole time.

对于汉诺威王朝的君主们来说，保护汉诺威以及参与德意志事务对他们至关重要。

And for the Hanoverian kings, the protection of Hanover and their involvement in German affairs was immensely important to them.

因此，在这段我们如今已遗忘的时期里，英国深深卷入了德意志世界的复杂政治之中。

So all this time, in a way that we've now forgotten, Britain was enmeshed in the sort of incredibly arcane politics of the Germanic world.

乔治二世非常有效地确保了英国的军队和资金被用于保卫他在德意志的领土。

And George the second is is very, very effective at ensuring that British arms and and money is used to defend his territories in Germany.

是的。

Yes.

实际上，有些学者，比如布伦丹·西姆斯，写了一本关于这个主题的巨著，他认为，尽管我们现在过度关注帝国和殖民扩张，但这些其实只是手段而非目的，真正让君主和精英阶层在意的，正是你所说的中欧势力均衡。

I mean, actually, this is something that some scholars so there's a guy called Brendan Simms, who's written a massive colossal book about this, arguing that for all that we're now fixated with empire and with colonial expansion, that actually this was merely a means to an end, And that what mattered to the monarch and most of the elite was exactly as you say, the balance of power within Central Europe.

而其他所有事情——获取殖民地、建造舰队——在很大程度上只是这场针对法国、争夺欧洲大陆主导权的战争中的一种工具。

And all the other stuff, the acquiring of colonies and the ships and was a sort of was was just a weapon in this war largely against the French for control of their sort of continent.

我们在《七年战争》那期播客中提到过，英国和普鲁士自然而然地成为了盟友。

And so we we talked about that in the in the Seven Years' War podcast that that Britain and Prussia kind of become natural allies.

是的。

Yes.

这显然一直延续到了拿破仑时代。

And that is obviously something that then carries through into the Napoleonic era.

没错。

Yeah.

正是如此。

That exactly.

英格兰和普鲁士的传统联盟，后来变成了英国和普鲁士，对吧？

England and Prussia, the usual alliance becomes Britain and Prussia, doesn't it?

我认为，至少到十九世纪时，这种所谓祖先之间的友谊、血脉相连的说法就开始形成了。

And I think it's at that point, certainly by the nineteenth century, that this idea of the ancestral, you know, friendship, that there's sort of ties of kinship.

我的意思是，这显然是某种……

I mean, that's obviously something Well,

这体现在威灵顿和布吕歇尔身上

it's it's embodied in Wellington and Bucha

是的。

Yes.

他们在滑铁卢战场的尸横遍野中相遇。

Kind of meeting each other amid the carnage of Waterloo.

这种场景成为了十九世纪初德意志人与英国人彼此看待对方的奠基性形象。

And that that is the kind of foundational image for the way that the Germans and the and and and the British see each other, certainly in the first years of the of the nineteenth century.

不过，我意思是，布吕歇尔、腓特烈大帝以及普鲁士军事力量的概念，显然是我们基于后来的发展而回溯投射的。

Although, I I mean, what what so Blucher and and and Frederick the Great and the idea of of Prussian arms is obviously something that that we might backproject because we know where it's it's going to lead.

但撇开普鲁士不谈，当时仍然存在众多选侯国、宫廷小邦和主教领地等等。

But away from Prussia, you've still got all these kind of electorates and palacelets and bishoprics and things.

然后拿破仑将它们全部废除了。

And then Napoleon gets rid of them.

拿破仑时代结束后，人们面临的问题是：德国究竟应该是什么样子。

And then you've coming out of coming out of the Napoleonic era, you've got the problem of what what what should Germany be.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，在那个时候，你得考虑两件事，汤姆。

And Well, at that point, you've got two things, think, Tom.

第一，普鲁士正在扩张。

One, you've you've got Prussia expanding.

是的。

So Yeah.

德国从未真正成为一个特别有力的政治概念，但在十九世纪，它将变成一个政治概念。

Germany is going to become which has never really been a a sort of a a particularly potent political concept, is going to become a political concept in the nineteenth century.

但同时，法国也在衰落。

But also, you have the decline of France.

我认为，一旦法国开始衰落，英国与德国的关系就会发生变化，因为我们的友谊长期以来建立在共同憎恨法国的基础上。

And I think the British relationship with Germany changes once France starts to decline because we our friendship was spaced so tightly on a shared loathing of the French.

但我认为，关于‘德国应该是什么’这个问题，还有另一个维度，它源于法国大革命和拿破仑战争，那就是催生了一种深刻的哲学内省氛围。

But I think I think there's another dimension to to this kind of what should Germany be that that comes out of the the French Revolution and the the Napoleonic Wars, which is that it generates a kind of mood of profound philosophical introspection.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，当时英国人眼中的德国人并不是军国主义者，而是恰恰相反——几乎是梦想家和思想家，是的。

And so the the the image of the Germans in England at this time is not of kind of militarists, but of almost the precise opposite, kind of dreamers and thinkers Yeah.

他们的头脑迷失在云雾中。

Whose head had lost in the cloud.

就像歌德和卡斯帕·大卫·弗里德里希画中那些凝视山谷、感受情绪的人物。

It's the sort of Goethe and Casper David Friedrich paintings of people looking at valleys and and feeling

非常忧郁。

very miserable.

在山上凝视雾气之类的情景。

On mountains and gazing at mist and things.

因此，像塞缪尔·泰勒·柯勒律治这样的伟大诗人，你知道，他和威廉·华兹华斯一起创作了《抒情歌谣集》，这位伟大的浪漫主义代表人物前往德国，学习德语，然后回来复述他所吸收的全部唯心主义哲学。

And and so you've got someone like Samuel Taylor Coleridge, the great poet, you know, with William Wordsworth writing the lyrical ballads, one of the great romantic figures, who goes to Germany and learns German and then basically comes back and regurgitates all this idealist philosophy that he's picked up.

这对英国人如何看待德国人产生了巨大而深远的影响。

And that's hugely, hugely influential on how the British see the Germans.

所以，是的。

So Yeah.

我想，虽然我们还没讲满四十五分钟，但该吹哨休息了，咱们短暂休息一下吧。

I I I think it you know, we haven't had forty five minutes, but we it's the whistle should blow, and we should go and have a have a brief interval.

但我觉得这是个不错的停顿点。

But I think it's a good point to leave it.

一个非常愉快的停顿点。

A very a very happy point.

是的。

Yeah.

把德国人看作是无能、 incompetent 的梦想家，他们在哲学方面非常出色。

Seeing the seeing the Germans as as ineffectual, incompetent dreamers who were very good at philosophy.

所以这个播客最终会变成斯文约恩·埃里克森对英格兰队表现的点评。

So this podcast is gonna turn out like Svenjourn Eriksson's verdicts on English performances.

上半场，表现不错。

First half, good.

下半场就不那么好了。

Second half not so good.

休息后见。

See you after the break.

欢迎回到《历史的余音》，我是桑布鲁克和汤姆·荷兰。

Welcome back to the rest is History, with me, Sandbrook and Tom Holland.

我们正在讨论英格兰和德国，或者说是英国和德国，我想，因为我们已经进入十九世纪了。

And we are talking England and Germany or Britain and Germany, I suppose, since we're into the nineteenth century.

汤姆，我认为这一切中一个绝对核心的人物是阿尔伯特亲王，我们还没讨论过他。

And, Tom, I think an absolutely central figure in all this is prince Albert, who we haven't discussed yet.

是的。

Yes.

他当然最终娶了维多利亚女王。

Who, of course, ends up marrying queen Victoria.

而且，我们在休息前也提到过，德国的形象就是无效的。

And, again, we were talking before the before the break that the image of Germany is is they're ineffectual.

他们基本上并不富裕。

They're basically not very rich.

这正是人们对阿尔伯特亲王的看法，对吧？

And that's that's very much the kind of opinion on Prince Albert, isn't it?

他似乎被认为是在超越自己的实力，我觉得。

He's he's not quite seen he's seen as punching above his weight, I think

确实是。

He is

通过迎娶维多利亚女王。

in marrying Queen Victoria.

他是典型的伴侣典范：一出现就遭到所有人鄙视，人们都说，这个冒牌的外国人是谁？我们为什么要听他的？

He is the paradigmatic example of the consort who arrives and everybody despises him, and they say, who is this jumped up foreigner, and why should we listen to him?

所以很多人说，他来自的萨克森-科堡，面积比一个英国郡还小。

So a lot of people say Saxe Coburg, which is where he's from, is smaller than an English county.

当然，让这种情况变得更糟的是两件事。

And and, of course, what makes this sort of worse is two things.

第一，维多利亚女王对他极度忠诚。

One, that Queen Victoria is utterly devoted to him.

如果你读过她的日记，就会知道，哦，我昨晚多么幸福地依偎在他怀里，诸如此类的话。

You know, if you read her sort of diary entries, you know, oh, what a night I spent in his arms and all this kind of business.

但另一方面，阿尔伯特亲王在很多方面都是一个非常令人钦佩的人，不过我猜他也会非常令人厌烦，因为他从德国来，你可以想象他用一口完美的德式英语口音说话。

But also Prince Albert is Prince Albert is in many ways an immensely admirable man, he's also, I imagine, incredibly annoying because he arrived he arrived from Germany, and you can imagine him speaking, you know, perfect German accent in English.

他会说，你们的童工问题完全不可接受。

And he sort of says, your child labor is very unacceptable.

你知道，你们应该清理一下这些。

You know, you should clean up this.

你们应该做那个。

You should do that.

你们应该举办一场盛大的博览会。

You should start have a great exhibition.

你们应该做这一切。

You should all this.

你知道，他拥有所有

You know, he's he's got all

这些都太棒了，多米尼克。

these Great, Dominic.

这些都是很棒的内容。

That's all great stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

但他还有这么多改进的想法。

But he's got all these improving ideas.

你这是在扮演弗拉什曼的声音。

You're the voice of Flashman.

我的意思是，最糟糕的是，你看到他有这么多出色、非常棒的想法，非常值得钦佩的想法。

I mean, that's the worst thing you see, that he's got all these brilliant, very good ideas, very admirable ideas.

而来自这个来自萨克斯·戈贝格的人，很多人会不耐烦地摇头。

And coming from this guy who from Saks Goebag, a lot of people sort of shake their heads grumpily.

但随着时间的推移，我认为他逐渐赢得了人们的认同，因为我觉得

But over time, I think he wins people over because his I think

他确实如此。

he does.

大规模的现代化理念。

Massive modernizing ideas.

你无法反驳这些理念。

You can't argue with them.

我的意思是，童工问题很难辩护。

I mean, the child labor is hard to defend.

但还有那场盛大的博览会

The but also the great exhibition

是的。

Yes.

这本质上是他的计划，取得了巨大成功。

Which is essentially his his scheme is a great success.

最终，它资助了所有的博物馆，最明显的是维多利亚和阿尔伯特博物馆，还有南肯辛顿的其他一些博物馆。

And it ends up funding, you know, all the museums, Victoria and Albert Museum most obviously, but others as well in South Kensington.

这成了对他永久的纪念。

And that's a permanent memorial to him.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

我的意思是，还有纪念物，而且

I mean, there's memorial And

他有一座巨大的金色雕像，周围环绕着帝国的象征符号，我真惊讶它至今还没被拆除。

he's got that kind of massive gold statue of him surrounded by emblems of the empire, which I'm amazed hasn't been canceled yet.

他去世时，人们在全国各地都建立了纪念物。

And when he died, I mean, people put up memorials all over the country.

在伍尔弗汉普顿就有一座纪念物。

There's a memorial in, Wolverhampton.

汤米会被安放在这里。

Tommy will be put there.

是的。

Yeah.

阿尔伯特王子骑着马，位于伍尔弗汉普顿的中心。

Prince Albert's on a horse in the middle of Wolverhampton.

所以它是

So It's

很高兴看到米德兰兹地区终于与德国和解了。

good to see the Midlands getting reconciled at last to Germany.

对。

Yes.

在鲁珀特王子之后，是的。

After Prince Rupert and Yeah.

在鲁珀特王子之后，以及伯明翰和佐治亚的骚乱之后，米德兰兹地区终于确切地意识到，它属于日耳曼文化。

After Prince Rupert and after the riots in Birmingham and Georgia first, the Midlands finally, exactly, discovered it's in a Teuton.

但还有圣诞树。

But also the Christmas tree.

圣诞树是阿尔伯特的持久遗产。

The Christmas tree is, Albert's lasting legacy.

因为我认为在那之前已经有过圣诞树，但他真正普及了圣诞树这个概念。

Because I think there have been Christmas trees before, but he really popularizes the idea of the Christmas tree.

所以我们欠他太多了，汤姆。

So we owe him so much, Tom.

所以英德关系看起来很不错，对吧？

So it's all good looking good, isn't it, for Anglo German relations?

非常好。

It's great.

而且实际上，一直到1870年。

And actually, right up to 1870.

我稍微说得更远一点，但我认为1870年是关键的转折点，因为那正是俾斯麦基本上——我的意思是，我们之前在关于第二帝国的播客里和凯西·霍耶讨论过这个。

I I I a little bit beyond that, but I think 1870 is the key turning point because that, of course, is the moment when Bismarck basically, we I mean, we talked about this with Kathy Hoyer in our second Reich podcast.

她操控着法国人。

She maneuvers the French.

抱歉。

Sorry.

她。

She.

俾斯麦。

Bismarck.

卡蒂亚。

Katya.

卡蒂亚不会。

Katya doesn't.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为卡蒂亚身上也有俾斯麦式的特质。

She's got she's got a Bismarckian side to her, I think, Katya.

总之，俾斯麦诱使法国卷入战争。

Anyway, Bismarck maneuvers the French, into war.

普鲁士人彻底击败了法国，正是在那时，他们建立了第二位皇帝。

The Prussians wipe the floor with the French, and it's and it's then that they create the second emperor.

他们创建了德国。

They create Germany.

我认为，从1870年以后，你可以看到英国日益增长的不安。

The thing I think from 1870 onwards, you can see this growing disquiet in Britain.

但当时，人们对德国的胜利相当热情，不是吗？

But at at the time, there's quite a lot of enthusiasm for Germany's victories, isn't it?

当时也有媒体报道，我们很高兴看到清醒、勤奋、道德的德国战胜了

There is also kind of press reports, we are glad to see sober, industrious, moral Germany triumph over

是的。

Yeah.

天主教的鹰。

Catholic eagle.

虚荣心强，是的。

Vainglorious Yes.

法国的公鸡。

Cockerels of France.

是的。

Yeah.

但我觉得大概一周后，就像宿醉一样。

But I think then sort of about a week later, they it's like the hangover.

他们醒过来，心想：天哪。

They kinda wake up and think, oh god.

他们很快就要在足球上打败我们了。

They're gonna be beating us at football soon.

对。

Yes.

我也说过，一旦德国统一，德国资本主义的庞大引擎就开始轰鸣。

And I've also said this moment that once Germany is unified, the tremendous engines of German capitalism really start to roar.

因此，到了十九世纪末，德国制造业已经赶上并确实开始超越英国制造业。

And so by the end of the nineteenth century, German manufacturing has caught up with and indeed is overtaking British manufacturing.

然后你就迎来了我们之前提到的那些时刻，那种略带偏执的幻想。

And then you get this moment, these moments which we talked about before of, you know, this sort of slightly paranoid fantasies.

我的意思是，你甚至可以说，这些想法最终并没有那么偏执，因为德国人确实即将入侵，德国人已经通过了

I mean, you could argue they don't turn out to be so paranoid after all, that the Germans are about to invade, that the Germans have over Through the

多尔金缺口。

Dorking Gap.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

我们之前谈过1910年的入侵以及诸如此类的事情，但我

They we talked about the the invasion of nineteen ten and all these kinds of But I

我觉得这还不止如此。

think it's more than that as well.

我的意思是，这不仅仅关乎军事，对吧？

I mean, it's not just military, is it?

甚至也不只是工业。

Or even industrial.

还有一种感觉，那就是德国人更文明。

It's also the sense that the Germans are more civilized.

是的。

Yes.

他们几乎在每一个文化领域都胜过了我们。

That they that they they are kind of beating us pretty much in every cultural field.

对。

Yeah.

他们的实验室、他们的大学，正是如此。

Their laboratories, their universities, exactly.

他们的大学树立了典范。

Their universities set the template.

我认为这是英国人第一次感受到自卑感。

And I think it's the for for the first time, the English feel an inferiority complex.

因此，他们以一种显而易见的方式回应——建造庞大而雄伟的战舰。

And so they respond in the obvious way by building huge, massive phallic warships.

是的。

Yeah.

当然，还有无畏舰竞赛。

Well, of course, there's the dreadnought race.

在我说的那之前，那种对国家阳刚之气的痴迷其实是双方共有的。

There's the dreadnought race before the I mean, I think the the sort of obsession with national virility is is shared on both sides.

所以，我们之前谈过，比如威廉二世和他的船鞋，确实

So, I mean, we talked, obviously, the Kaiser and his boating shoes has has been

是的。

Yes.

一头母牛。

A cow.

这是我们第三次提到他们了。

As we for the third time, I get to mention them.

他被人嘲笑。

He gets laughed at.

所以有一件事我们确实坚持的是，我们有正确的游艇礼仪。

So that's one thing where we do uphold is is that we have proper yachting etiquette.

而皇帝在这些事情上却令人遗憾地显得粗俗。

And the the Kaiser is lamentably gauche at such issues.

至少在这方面，不列颠统治着海洋。

So there, at least, Britannia rules the wave.

你在这方面是骗了自己吧，不是吗？

You you have fooled yourself on this, don't you?

我的意思是，

I mean,

这从来都不算太糟。

it's never terrible.

是的。

Yes.

在我看来，你同情那位皇帝。

To me, you sympathize with the Kaiser.

我的意思是，你们在很多方面其实很相似。

I mean, you're quite similar people in in many ways, I think.

而且

And

好吧，我们别继续这个类比了。

Well, let's not pursue that analogy.

但在第一次世界大战之前，我认为有两件事正在发生。

But, yes, before the first world war, I think there were two things going on.

一是焦虑，二是对那位傲慢自大的皇帝及其无畏舰的恐惧，还有德国试图获取自己的殖民地，德国制造商超越他们自己。

One is the anxiety and one is the sort of the the the fear that of the pompous strutting Kaiser and his dreadnoughts and Germany trying to get its own colonies and and German manufacturers overtaking their own.

但同时也有一种对德国持续不断的迷恋。

But there also is this this continuing fascination with Germany.

所以有个人叫霍尔丹，霍尔丹勋爵，他是第一次世界大战前组建英国军队的人。

So there's a guy called Haldane, Lord Haldane, who is the guy who builds up the British army before the first world war.

霍尔丹是个德国迷，就像当时很多人一样，他曾在德国待过很长时间。

And Haldane is a Germanophile as many people were, and Haldane has spent lots of time in Germany.

实际上，他在第一次世界大战期间被罢免了职务，因为人们说：‘他整个夏天都待在德国。’

And actually, he then gets drummed out of office in the first world war because people say, oh, he's been spending all his summers in Germany.

他有众多德国朋友，读德国书籍，这在爱德华时代很多知识分子中都很常见。

He's got all these German friends, he reads German books and as a lot of intellectuals did in the Edwardian period.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

我的意思是，但甚至在此之前，你会想到乔治·艾略特信仰危机，因为德国神学家正在彻底重写我们对基督教历史的理解基础。

I mean, but but because well, but even before that, you think of George Eliot and her crisis of faith because the sense that theologians in Germany are radically rewriting the basis for our understanding of of Christian history.

是的。

Yeah.

影响极其深远。

Absolutely massive impact.

而且这几乎影响了每一个学术领域。

And and and that is across, you know, pretty much every academic discipline.

是德国在引领潮流。

It's Germany who's blazing the path.

我认为这确实引发了一种混合情绪——既着迷又自卑，而这些显然都融入了那股推动英国走向

And I think that that that does generate a kind of mixture of kind of fascination, inferiority, all of which obviously feeds into the swirl of of opinion that helps push Britain into

是的。

Yeah.

战争

War

1914年对德国的战争中。

against Germany in 1914.

然后我认为，这也稍微助长了战争期间的一些宣传。

And then I think also slightly, I think, slightly feeds some of the propaganda during the war.

所以，显然有很多关于‘德国人强奸了比利时’之类的说法。

So, obviously, there's lots of the sort of stuff about, the Germans have raped Belgium.

他们确实，你知道的

They are, you know

钉死加拿大士兵。

Crucifying Canadian soldiers.

钉死人们。

Crucifying people.

他们强奸修女。

They are raping nuns.

他们用刺刀刺杀婴儿之类的。

They are bayonetting babies and stuff.

其中很多，你知道的，确实有几分真实，因为德国人在比利时确实以极大的凶残推进。

A lot of which, you know, there's a grain of truth in that, as in the Germans do proceed with great sort of ferocity through Belgium.

我以为修正主义的再修正其实是，比利时确实发生了可怕的暴行。

I thought that they they the the revisionism of the revisionism was that actually there were terrible atrocities in Belgium.

我认为确实有暴行，但我觉得那并不是人们所说的那种暴行。

I think there are atrocities, but I don't think they're quite the atrocities that are.

所以德国人确实会射杀平民。

So the Germans do shoot civilians.

他们确实烧毁了鲁汶的大图书馆。

They do burn the great library in Louvain.

作为占领力量，他们的行为非常残忍。

They do behave very ferociously as an occupying force.

我的意思是，汤姆，这个比较其实是克伦威尔在爱尔兰的所作所为。

I mean, actually, the comparison, Tom, is Cromwell in Ireland.

动机完全相同。

Exactly from the same motives.

所以当德国人进入比利时，而比利时人抵抗时，德国人对比利时人的抵抗感到非常震惊。

So the Germans, when they set off into Belgium and the Belgians resist, the Germans are quite shocked that the Belgians are resisting.

他们的指挥官基本上说，我们必须极其残酷地行动，我们会赢得战争，并通过恐惧来建立秩序。

And their their commanders basically say, you know, we have to do this incredibly fiercely, and we will, you know, win the war, and we will impose order by fear.

我们要让他们感到害怕。

And we make them scared.

否则，他们会向我们开枪，还有诸如此类的事情。

Otherwise, they will shoot at us and and all this sort of thing.

所以这种行为是相当有意识的，但我不认为它像英国报纸报道所暗示的那样野蛮。

So it's quite it's done quite deliberately, but I don't think it's quite as savage as the sort of British newspaper coverage suggested.

但我确实认为，随后发生的事情——所有这些作家，比如吉卜林、H.G.威尔斯、约瑟夫·康拉德之类的人，纷纷撰文发表，说德国人就是庸俗的野蛮人、嗜血的怪物。

But I do think that what then happened, which is all these sort of people, you know, all these writers, the sort of Kiplings and, I don't know, h g Wells' and Joseph Conrads or whatever, venturing into print and saying, oh, the Germans are just Philistines and barbarians and blood drinking monsters.

我认为其中一部分动机是：太好了。

I think some of that is motivated by, oh, great.

现在我们不必再担心他们那么聪明了。

Now we don't have to worry about them being so clever anymore.

因为吉卜林确实影响巨大。

Well, because Kipling definitely Kipling was massive.

我的意思是，他非常讨厌德国人。

I mean, he he hated Germans.

他的一些短篇小说，是的。

Some of his short stories Yes.

太可怕了。

Were terrible.

有一篇是关于玛丽·波斯盖特的，没错。

There's one with Mary Posgate, where the That's right.

有一个德国飞行员快死了，她嗯，

There's a German aviator who is is dying, and she Yeah.

就把他留在花园里等死。

Kinda leaves him to die in the garden.

我们本该觉得

And we're supposed to

是的。

Yeah.

真是令人不寒而栗。

Really chilling stuff.

事实上，这些观点常常来自那些三十年前还推崇日耳曼兄弟情谊的人。

And actually, it's often coming from people, I think, who, you know, thirty years earlier, would have been all about Teutonic brotherhood.

而现在，他们只是把这一切完全颠倒了过来。

And now they've just sort of turned that on its head.

《退场》这首著名的诗，是吉卜林为维多利亚女王登基周年纪念所写，提醒我们勿忘历史，勿忘历史，是的。

The recessional, the famous poem that that Kipling wrote of the Jubilee of Queen Victoria, saying, you know, lest we forget, lest we forget Yeah.

否则我们终将如尼尼微和推罗一般消亡。

Or we end up one with Nineveh and Tyre.

尼尼微和推罗。

Nineveh and Tyre.

他选用了‘次等种族’这个词。

He in in a choice, he talks about lesser breeds.

我认为，这些‘次等种族’指的并不是德国人。

And I think the lesser breeds are not of the Germans.

‘没有法律的次等种族’？

Lesser breeds without the law?

不是。

No.

我不认为他们是德国人。

I don't think they're the Germans.

我认为他们是被殖民的民族。

I think they're the they're the colonized peoples.

我认为这存在争议。

I think there is debate.

是吗？

Is there?

我不认同吉卜林的学术观点。

I'm not I'm not okay with Kipling's scholarship.

我认为有些人认为他可能是在指德国人。

I think I think there are people who think that that he may be referring to the Germans there.

但无论如何，吉卜林在这里表达的是一种对德国的恐惧，正是在这里，你开始意识到，因为他们后来被称为匈奴人。

But anyway, but but Kipling there is voicing a kind of, a kind of horror, really, at at the I at Germany as and and it's there that you're starting to get the idea that that because they they come to be called the Huns.

是的。

Yes.

他们显然是匈牙利人。

Who obviously are actually Hungarians.

但我的意思是，那种原始野蛮的概念，本质上是罗马人的观念。

But, I mean, the idea that there is a kind of primal barbarism, it's essentially the kind of the Roman idea.

是的。

Yes.

在莱茵河之外

That beyond the Rhine

人们会使用‘野蛮人’这个词。

Well, people use the word barbarian.

他们用

They use

这个词用得很多。

it all the time.

一切都是野蛮与黑暗。

All is all is savagery and darkness.

我的意思是，这完全否定了从波尼法爵开始的那套观念。

I mean, it's absolutely it's kinda whole repudiation of that thing that had begun with with Boniface.

但有趣的是，汤姆，这种观念消失得如此之快。

But then the interesting thing, Tom, is that that disappears so quickly.

所以到了二十世纪二十年代，一切都变成了：来吧，我们和德国人签订一些军控条约吧。

So that by the nineteen twenties, it's all like, you know, let's go and conclude some arms treaties with the Germans.

他们在重建。

They're rebuilding.

那里有很多东西，有一种强烈的倾向——别对德国人太残忍，虽然‘别对德国人太刻薄’是后来的说法，但二十世纪二十年代和三十年代确实有这种情绪，不是吗？

There's a lot there's a great sort of don't let's be beast I mean, the don't let's be beastly to the Germans is a later phrase, but there's a sense of that in the nineteen twenties and thirties, isn't there?

我的意思是，这背后正是许多绥靖政策的根源。

I mean, that's what lies behind a lot of appeasement.

也许我们对德国人太严厉了。

That the maybe we were a bit harsh on the Germans.

他们也没那么糟糕。

They're not quite so bad.

他们正努力重新站稳脚跟。

They're trying to get back on their feet.

我不确定。

I'm not sure.

我的意思是，显然魏玛时期的柏林对英国的艺术家、作家和知识分子有一种迷人的吸引力。

I I I mean, obviously, the the Weimar Berlin has a kind of hypnotic appeal for for for British artists and writers and intellectuals.

所以对我们英国人来说，我们是通过那些曾去那里的人的视角来看待魏玛时期的。

So I think for us in England, we we see Weimar through the the the eyes of of the people who did that.

你知道，《歌厅》就是这种现象的典型代表。

You know, Cabaret would be the kind of exemplification of that.

是的。

Yeah.

像克里斯托弗·伊舍伍德这样的人。

Christopher Isherwood type people.

但我认为，始终萦绕在我们心头的问题是：该如何对待德国。

But but I think I I think shadowing the whole time, there's the issue of what to do about Germany.

而其背后是德国力量本质上具有危险性的假设。

And underlying that is the assumption that German power is inherently dangerous.

这就是英国和法国维持联盟的原因。

And that's why Britain and France maintain their alliance.

这绝对是丘吉尔的观点。

It's absolutely Churchill's view.

我认为这种想法甚至体现在绥靖政策中，因为本质上，我们可能——你知道——把他们逼得太狠了。

And I think it's even there in appeasement because the essentially, it's kind of we might, you know you it is maybe we push them too far.

也许我们从他们身上索取得太多了。

Maybe we we we exacted too much out of them.

但我的意思是，绥靖政策背后也隐含着一种观念：你必须对某人进行安抚。

But but, I mean, underlying appeasement is also the idea that you have to appease someone.

因为如果你不这么做的话

Because if you don't

是的。

Yeah.

他们会攻击你。

They'll hit you.

我的意思是，我不太确定这一点，但我认为我们应该专门做一期关于绥靖政策的播客。

Well, I mean, I think I'm not I'm not sure about that, but I think we should do a podcast just on appeasement.

实际上，我想告诉你一件我们还没讨论过的事，就是德国人如何看待英国。

And, actually, I wanna tell you one thing we haven't talked about is what the Germans think of Britain.

毫无疑问，许多德国人在第一次世界大战后仍认为英国是他们的天然盟友和朋友。

Because there's no doubt that lots of Germans still, after the first world war, think of Britain as their natural ally and their natural friend.

包括希特勒吗？

Including Hitler?

是的。

Yeah.

在第一次世界大战期间，德国人中有大量人，我的意思是，很多人对英国竟然参战感到震惊和恐惧。

So during the first world war, there have been ton I mean, the a lot of Germans had been absolutely appalled and horrified that Britain had entered at all.

他们原本以为英国不会参战。

They'd assumed that Britain would not enter.

当英国参战时，他们感到被背叛，因为他们觉得自己的表亲倒向了法国，与他们为敌。

And then when Britain, does, they feel betrayed because they feel that their cousin has turned against them, siding with the French.

好吧，当乔治五世把萨克森-科堡家族改为温莎家族时，皇帝开过一个大玩笑。

Well, there's the Kaiser's great joke when Yes.

当乔治五世把萨克森-科堡家族改为温莎家族时。

When George the fifth changes the the house of Saxe Coburg to the house of Windsor.

皇帝风趣地说：‘我要去看莎士比亚的戏剧《温莎的风流娘们》了。’

And the Kaiser wittily says, I'm off to see Shakespeare's play the merry wives of Saxe Coburg.

公平地说，这真是个不错的——我的意思是，这

To be fair, that's quite a good I mean It

是个不错的笑话。

is a good joke.

是的。

Yeah.

皇帝确实讲过一个不错的笑话。

The Kaiser the Kaiser did make one good joke.

我觉得我们可以安全地

I think we can safely

说瓦格。

say Wag.

但你说得对，对于希特勒和纳粹来说，英国并不是一个显而易见的敌人。

But but you're right that for Hitler and the Nazis, England was not automatically an obvious enemy.

许多高级纳粹分子确实认为，我们可以做到。

And lots of senior Nazis did think, well, we can do it.

我们可以和英国达成协议，你知道的，就像伊恩·柯尔彻所说，他在谈论自己如何开始研究纳粹历史时提到，上世纪七十年代一个德国人对他说，我们本可以瓜分世界。

We can deal do a deal with the British and do, you know, sort of I mean, Ian Kirscher said this, didn't he, in his when he was talking about how he got into doing the history of the Nazis that a German guy said to him in this nineteen seventies, we could have divided up the world between us.

我认为上世纪三十年代，这种观点在当时相当普遍。

I think there was quite a lot of sentiment along those lines in the nineteen thirties.

是的。

Yeah.

而且希特勒，他钦佩英国对印度的统治。

And Hitler, I mean, he admired British rule over India

是的。

Yeah.

并且将此视为他所向往的典范。

And kind of saw that as an exemplification of what he wanted.

所以，是的，英国确实有一些方面甚至被纳粹所钦佩。

So, yes, there were aspects of Britain that even the Nazis admired.

我的意思是，我们终究不可能不提到战争，所以不如直接谈。

I mean, we were never gonna not mention the war, so we might as well.

我觉得有趣的是，英国人对德国的宣传，在我看来，实际上并没有像最初那样强烈反德，而是更反纳粹。

I think what's interesting to me is that the the propaganda, the the British sense of of Germany is, to my mind, actually, not quite as intensely anti German as it was in the first of all, it's more anti Nazi.

对。

Yeah.

所以，这是否就是《布利普上校的生活与时代》所描述的那样？

So so some was this the life and times of colonel Blimp?

是的。

Yes.

这部电影描绘了一位正直的普鲁士人物，被视为德国最优秀代表。

Which features an honorable Prussian figure who who is seen as the best of Germany.

丘吉尔讨厌它，对吧？

And Churchill hated it, didn't he?

他想禁止这部电影。

He wanted it banned.

他认为这基本上是一种亲德国的宣传。

He thought that it was kind of basically kind of pro German propaganda.

但另一方面，汤姆，就连丘吉尔也谈过隆美尔。

But even Churchill, on the other hand, Tom, said, for example, of Rommel.

我认为隆美尔是英国舆论在战后重新接纳德国的关键人物，因为隆美尔在英国人眼中就是‘好德国人’的典范。

And I think Rommel is a really import actually, really important figure in how British opinion kind of rehabilitated Germany after the war, because Rommel is the sort of the the the paradigm of the good German in British eyes.

甚至在战争期间，丘吉尔就曾评价隆美尔，说他是一位伟大的将军，是一位高尚的对手，之类的话。

And even during the war, Churchill said of Rommel, he's a very great general and a noble antagonist or something like this.

所以，你知道，一直存在这样一种观念——我认为这种观念在一战时并不存在——那就是还有另一个德国，纳粹压制了真正的德国。

So, you know, there was always this sense, which I don't think really exists in the first world war, that there was another Germany, that the Nazis had suppressed, as it were, the real Germany.

还存在另一个德国，它高尚、正直、有德行，是一个体面的敌人，但这个德国却不知怎地消失了。

And there was another Germany that was noble and, you know, upstanding and virtuous and a sort of decent enemy, and that that had somehow been lost.

这在战争结束后变得极为重要，当时英国是四个占领国之一，显然在决定战后德国命运方面扮演了关键角色。

Which which is then terribly important when the war is over, and Britain is one of the four occupying powers, and obviously plays a crucial role in deciding what will happen to Germany after the war.

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，战后英国的政策在我看来是英德关系中一个惊人的亮点。

I mean, British British policy after the after the war seems to me an incredible bright spot in Anglo German relations.

例如，正是英国军官重建了大众汽车公司。

Well, it's a British officer who rebuilds Volkswagen, for example.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

英国在重建德国民主制度和恢复德国工业方面发挥了关键作用，并且实际上借鉴了英国自身的问题，确保德国不会重蹈覆辙。

And and Britain plays a kind of crucial role in in reestablishing German democracy and reestablishing German industry, and actually kind of learning from problems that Britain has and ensuring that Germany doesn't have them.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这是真的。

I think that's true.

我的意思是，别忘了在两次世界大战之后，有些美国政策制定者认为，解决办法是永远肢解德国，摧毁它的工业，把它变成某种

I mean, don't forget that being there were American policymakers who said the the answer to this after two world wars is to break up Germany forever, to break it up, destroy its industry, and just turn it into this sort

类似森林的地方。

of Kind of forest.

是的。

Yeah.

变成基本上是瑞士，变成许多小瑞士，这样它就再也无法威胁欧洲。

Into basically Switzerland, into lots of little Switzerland's so that it can never again menace Europe.

我认为没有那样做的一个原因是，到那时，对德国的恐惧已经被对俄罗斯的恐惧所取代，而一个强大的德国被视为对抗苏联的重要屏障。

And and I think one reason for not doing that was by this point, fear of Germany had been overtaken by fear of Russia, and having a strong Germany was seen as an important bulwark against the Soviet Union.

是的。

Yeah.

所以显而易见，在五十年代、六十年代、七十年代，存在着许多矛盾心理。

So so obviously, going into fifties, sixties, seventies, there are so many ambivalences there.

但我想你和任何人一样有资格去追溯这些，因为你写过相关的内容。

But I guess you are as well qualified to trace as anyone because you've written about them.

哦，你太客气了，汤姆。

Oh, you're very kind, Tom.

这真好。

That's nice.

我想，是的。

I think, yes.

我认为，最有趣的是，当然，人们仍然记得战争。

I think I think the most interesting I mean, obviously, there are memories of the war.

有些人不愿意购买德国汽车。

There are people who won't buy German cars.

这种现象在《父辈的军队》中也能看到。

There is and you see that reflected in dad's army.

而且显然，最著名的就是《弗尔蒂旅馆》里从不提及战争。

And obviously, most famously in Fawlty Towers that don't mention the war.

但《弗尔蒂旅馆》的笑点是针对巴西尔·弗尔蒂的。

But the the Fawlty Towers, the joke is against Basil Fawlty.

这并不是针对德国人，对吧？

Well, that's not against Germans, is it?

所以巴西尔这样的人其实很多，但你说得对。

So Basil there are lots of people like Basil, but you're right.

德国人是进步、正直、友善的人，他们来酒店入住，却被巴西尔的行为震惊了。

The Germans are are progressive, decent, kindly people who come to stay at the hotel and are shocked by Basil's conduct.

到了七十年代，我认为在英国人眼中，德国已成为欧洲现代性的典范。

And certainly by the seventies, I think, Germany in British eyes was the exemplar of sort of European modernity.

因此，在七十年代中期，英国报纸上充斥着大量文章，称德国的劳资关系、德国的工厂、德国的教育体系，我们都应该向他们学习。

So there were tons of articles in the British newspapers in the sort of mid seventies saying German labor relations, German factories, German education system, we should learn from them.

德国是一个完美的现代国家。

Germany is the perfect kind of modern country.

你知道吗，上世纪七十年代德国的社会民主党领袖赫尔穆特·施密特曾被邀请到工党大会发表演讲，基本上是表示支持你们遏制罢工和通货膨胀的努力。

You know, there there were these Helmut Schmidt, the social democratic leader of Germany in the nineteen seventies, is brought over to address the Labour Party conference to basically say, you know, we support you in your attempts to stop so many strikes and inflation and so on.

当时有一种强烈的观念，德国就是未来，我们应当更像德国。

And there is this absolute sense, you know, Germany is the is the future, and we should be more like Germany.

我认为我们至今仍保留着这种观念。

And I think that that that we still have that.

我的意思是，这在英国公众舆论中仍然是相当重要的一种倾向。

I mean, I think that's still quite an important strain within British public opinion.

是的。

Yes.

我认为在你所说的略带进步倾向的观点中确实如此。

I think certainly in in what you would call slightly progressive opinion.

但我觉得，即使经历了两次世界大战和一场世界杯，这种想法还是有点让人尴尬，因为你知道，

But I think even even, you know, even even the two World War Wars and and one World Cup, it's it's a bit it's slightly embarrassing because, you know, I mean,

德国的世界杯啊。

Germany's World yeah.

他们赢了很多届世界杯。

They won lots of World Cups.

而对我们来说，这场比赛非常重要。

And and we for for us, you know, this fixture is is massive.

但对他们来说，其实并不是这样。

But for them, it's actually not.

对他们来说，确实不是。

For for them, it isn't.

我的意思是，我们某种程度上比他们更痴迷于德国的成功，而我们几乎不会打扰他们。

For I mean, we're we're, in a way, much more obsessed by by German success than, you know, I mean, we we barely intrude on them.

我觉得你说得完全正确。

I think you're absolutely right.

我觉得我们是对的。

I think we're right.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I don't know.

也许这并不完全正确。

Maybe maybe that's not entirely true.

但我认为，作为对手，我们对德国的执念比德国人对我们的执念更深。

But I think that we are more obsessed by Germany as an opponent than the Germans are by us.

我觉得这是对的。

I think that's right.

从足球角度来看。

In footballing terms.

我还觉得，实际上从政治角度来看也是如此。

I also think and also, I think, in political terms, actually.

我认为关键时刻并不是在1996年欧洲杯点球大战中输给德国人。

And I think the key moment is is not going out to the Germans on penalties in Euro ninety six.

而是在1990年点球大战中输给德国人。

It's going out to the Germans on penalties in 1990.

而且这不仅仅是我在开玩笑，从足球角度来说，事实上，那时德国统一已经提上议程。

And it's not just that I don't mean that sort of facetiously just as a footballing point, but, obviously, it's at that point the German unification is on the agenda.

而撒切尔夫人曾是西德的坚定支持者，实际上在七十年代末、八十年代初，她曾明确表示西德是英国应该效仿的榜样。

And missus Thatcher, who had been a great champion of West Germany, actually, and had had actually, in the late seventies, early eighties, had explicitly said West Germany is a model for Britain to follow.

但在八十年代末、九十年代初，她完全改变了态度，因为她强烈反对德国统一，因为她本质上意识到——当然，她并没有错。

She completely changes her tune at the end of the eighties, early nineties, because she is the great opponent of German unification because she basically recognizes I mean, not not she's not wrong.

她意识到一个统一的德国将成为欧洲的强国，而她并不喜欢这一点。

She recognizes that a united Germany will be the powerhouse of Europe, and she doesn't like it.

她试图阻止这一进程，但失败了。

She And tries to stop it, and she fails.

而科尔总理邀请她去自己的家乡，不是吗？

And chancellor Cole invites her over, doesn't he, for

天哪。

Oh, gosh.

并带她品尝当地的传统美食之类的东西

His hometown and treats him to treats her to to traditional local delicacies and things

实际上，这比那更令人动容。

like It's actually more moving than that.

我的意思是，查尔斯·戴高乐，在英国他被视为一个滑稽人物，但在其他地方，我认为他被看作一个真正意义上的……

I mean, Charles de Gaulle, who is I mean, in Britain, he's seen as a comic figure, but elsewhere, I think, he's seen as a genuinely sort

literally 一个巨人。

of Well, literally a giant.

字面上的巨人。

Literally a giant.

没错。

Exactly.

他内心深处有一种被埋藏的浪漫情怀，他带她四处参观，向她展示各地的风景，想让她了解德国所经历的苦难，以及它是如何重建的，还有他心中的这种愿景。

He he he has this sort of buried romantic side, and he wants to he takes her around, and he sort of shows her the sights, and he wants to show her the soul of Germany, and how much Germany has suffered, and how it has rebuilt, and this sort of this vision that he has.

当她回来时，她能说的只有：天啊，这个人真是太德国了。

And all she can say when she gets back is, oh my god, that man is so German.

我知道。

I know.

我知道。

I know.

我知道。

I know.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，汤姆，她实际上是在代表整个国家发言，不是吗？

I mean, the thing is there, Tom, she's kind of speaking for the nation, isn't she?

我的意思是，很多英国人都是这么想的。

I mean, that's what a lot of British people think.

嗯，当时她确实解雇了尼古拉斯·里德利，他可是她非常亲近的政治盟友。

Well, there was and she had to sack, is it Nicholas Ridley, who was kind of a very close political ally.

他被任命为部长之类的职位。

He was appointed secretary or something.

他曾在《旁观者》杂志上发表一篇文章，说当时的共同市场，不管它叫什么名字

And and he wrote an article in the spectator saying that the common market, whatever it was then

这是德国人策划的阴谋，为了夺取德国的势力范围。

It's a German plot to take a German racket.

德国的势力范围。

German racket.

他们前往欧洲。

They go to Europe.

德国的势力范围。

German racket.

这真是个不错的行动。

That's a very good go.

而且我想，这可能是英国脱欧运动的一个推动因素。

And and I guess I mean, I guess that that was that was kind of a motivating factor in the Brexit campaign, perhaps.

我的意思是，我觉得这仍然有点牵强。

I mean, I think that's still kind of slight

嗯，我认为一旦德国和法国——在这场讨论中，法国一直都在，而且法国是对手。

Well, I think once Germany and France I mean, so much of this in this discussion, France has been there, and France is the antagonist.