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英国帝国，西利爵士曾著名地评论说，它是在心不在焉的状态下获得的。
The British Empire, sir John Sealy, famously opined at the end of the Victorian period was acquired in a fit of absence of mind.
这已成为概括大英帝国如何形成的非常流行的说法，但许多历史学家对此提出了质疑。
It's become a very popular way of summing up the way in which the British Empire came together, but lots of historians have disputed it.
在这些历史学家之中，就有著名的维多利亚时代战役、上流社会与堕落生活的编年史家哈里·弗拉什曼爵士。
And among those historians is the noted chronicler of Victorian battles, high life, and depravity, sir Harry Flashman.
乔治·麦克唐纳·弗雷泽在1990年出版的小说《弗拉什曼与光明之山》中，塑造了这位伟大的反英雄，他嘲笑西利的观点。
George McDonald Fraser's great antihero in Flashman and the Mountain of Light, novel published in 1990, scoffs at Seeley's judgment.
他说，这其实是深思熟虑的结果，还有无数其他因素，比如贪婪与基督教、体面与邪恶、政策与疯狂、深远谋划与盲目偶然、骄傲与贸易、错误与好奇、激情、无知、骑士精神与权宜之计、对正义的真诚追求，以及誓死要把那些该死的青蛙赶出去的决心。
Presence of mind, if you like, he says, and countless other things such as greed and Christianity, decency and villainy, policy and lunacy, deep design and blind chance, pride and trade, blunder and curiosity, passion, ignorance, chivalry and expediency, honest pursuit of right, and determination to keep the bloody frogs out.
多米尼克，你站在哪一边？
Dominic, who who do you side with?
西利爵士，还是哈里·弗拉什曼爵士？
Seeley or Sir Harry Flashman?
哦，我的意思是，你知道的，我觉得我们所有播客都该以弗拉什曼开场。
Oh, the flat I mean, you've always got I think we should all start all our podcasts with Flashman.
我的意思是，你知道的，这会是个很棒的播客。
I mean, the good you know, it's gonna be a good podcast.
你也知道，在接下来的四十五分钟里，任何人说的话都不可能再这么出色了。
You also know that nothing anybody says will be as as good again in the in the next forty five minutes.
但在这点上，我站的是弗拉什曼这边。
But I'm a Flashman man on this.
所以显然，关于那段引言，我们之前在关于历史小说的那期节目中讨论过弗拉什曼。
So clearly I mean, with the great thing about that quote, we talked about Flashman in the historical fiction episode.
弗拉什曼对十九世纪大英帝国的描述，其精彩之处在于，它充满了层层叠叠的模糊性、讽刺与微妙之处。
The great thing about Flashman, the the account of the of the nineteenth century in the British Empire, is that it's actually there's layer upon layer of ambiguity and irony and nuance.
而那段引言里确实完全体现了这些，对吧？
And there absolutely is all that in that quotation, isn't there?
因为里面塞进了太多内容，我觉得这种复杂性恰恰真实地反映了帝国的经历。
Because so much is packed in, and I think there's so much complexity there that actually reflects the the imperial experience.
贪婪、传教精神，你知道的，把那些该死的青蛙赶出去，勇气、正直、邪恶、腐败。
Greed, missionary spirit, you know, keeping the frogs out, valor, decency, villainy, corruption.
所有这些元素都存在于其中，这正是这个故事如此丰富却又极具争议的原因，正如Flashman的引文所暗示的那样。
All those things are there, and that's what makes this story, you know, so rich, but also so controversial that you can actually see in it as the Flashman quotation suggests.
你可以从中看到你想要的任何东西。
You can see in it whatever you like.
这几乎反映了当代人对大英帝国的态度。
As if that is essentially contemporary attitudes to the British Empire.
我的意思是，这绝对是一个极具现实意义的问题。
I mean, it's an absolutely live issue.
我从一本书中得到了这个引文，这本书不仅是对这一主题的综述，更成为整个辩论中不可或缺的贡献。
And I got that quote from a book that that's not only a survey of that, but has become a vital contribution to the entire debate.
萨特曼·桑格拉的《帝国之地》，这本书大约在今年年初出版，我们非常荣幸能邀请到这位作者来到我们的播客。
Sathnam Sanghera's Empireland, which came out, I think at the the beginning of this year, and we are hugely honored to have the author with us on the podcast.
在我正式介绍他之前，我应该先提一下杰特·贝恩斯，是他牵线搭桥的。
And before I before I introduce him fully, probably, I should just mention Jeet Baines, who was the matchmaker over this.
他在Twitter上把我们介绍给了彼此。
He introduced us on Twitter.
我的意思是，我们都互相关注了，但他建议让某个人来谈谈这个话题。
I mean, we all followed each other, but he kind of suggested that that someone come on and talk about it.
非常感谢你，Jeet。
So thank you very much, Jeet.
最重要的是，感谢Sathnam前来和我们交流。
And above all, thank you, Sathnam, for coming on and talking to us.
很高兴。
Pleasure.
我是这个播客的粉丝。
I'm a fan of the podcast.
我希望我们都能因为这次对话而被取消关注。
I'm hoping we can all get canceled as a result of this conversation.
我觉得Dominic最有可能被取消关注。
Well, I think Dominic's the likeliest to get canceled.
我我
I I
我觉得我们已经被封杀了。
think I think we've already been canceled already.
我被封杀过那么多次，都留下疤痕了。
I've I've been canceled so many times, I've got the scars.
萨特纳姆，关于弗拉什曼这个话题，我们一开始聊到过他。
Sathnam, I I on the topic of Flashman, to begin with, we talked about him.
我们做过一期关于历史小说的节目。
We had an episode on historical fiction.
我说过，我本来很惊讶弗拉什曼居然还没被封杀，因为你知道，他的声音代表了一个非常种族主义的维多利亚时代冒险家。
And I said that I thought that I I was surprised that Flashman hadn't been canceled, to be Because, you know, I mean, his the voice is that of a a very racist Victorian adventurer.
我想知道你对这个问题的看法。
And I wonder what your perspective on that.
我的意思是，你觉得弗拉什曼有趣吗？
I mean, do you find Flashman funny?
你觉得他作为历史人物的声音真实可信吗？
Do you find him convincing as a historical voice?
你知道吗，我主要想到的是戴维·卡梅伦，因为人们总是把这两个人拿来比较，对吧？
You know, I mainly think of David Cameron because people always compare the two, don't they?
所以现在我读《弗拉什曼》时，总会想象是戴维·卡梅伦在读它。
And so I now cannot read Flashman without thinking David Cameron's reading it.
实际上，我昨天在读《我们的岛屿故事》，这本书是戴维·卡梅伦选为有史以来最喜爱的儿童读物。
And actually, I was reading Our Island Story yesterday, which David Cameron picked as his favorite children's book of all time.
我简直不敢相信，我的意思是，这可是历史上最著名的历史书籍之一，对吧？
And I couldn't believe I mean, it's it's one of most famous history books of all time, isn't it?
我简直不敢相信，这本书几乎完全没提到帝国。
I just couldn't believe how it barely touched upon Empire.
当它提到时，讲的只是加尔各答黑洞、兵变，以及兵变后印度人如何行为恶劣。
And when it did, it was talking about the black hole Calcutta, the mutiny, the Indians behaving terribly after the mutiny.
如果你对帝国的看法就是这样，然后还当上了首相，那你可就麻烦了，老兄。
If that's your view of Empire and then you become prime minister, you gotta be in trouble, man.
那我们直奔主题吧，因为我提前预习了你要来参加播客，所以我读了你的书，还引用了书里的内容。
So let's let's cut to the chase because I had I was kind of pre previewing that you were coming on the podcast, I and I was reading your book, and I quoted from the book.
它让我感受到，自这本书出版以来，你一直所经历的——你成为了这些对立观点的焦点，比如詹姆斯·奥布莱恩就在书的封面引用了你的话。
And it gave me a sense of what, obviously, you've been living through ever since it came out essentially, which is that you've become the focus for the kind of the rival perspectives on this, that that you've become lauded by so you've got quotes from you've quote from James O'Brien on the front, for instance.
但你也因此遭受了猛烈的攻击，常常是极其种族主义的谩骂，对吧？
But you're you've also had I mean, you've had a firestorm of abuse and often incredibly racist abuse over this, haven't you?
是的。
Yeah.
实际上，两边都有。
Actually, it's on both sides.
一些右翼人士也喜欢这本书。
Gonna say some right wingers have also liked it.
克里斯·帕滕、安德鲁·马赫。
Chris Patten, Andrew Maher.
是的。
Yeah.
基本上就是一场混乱。
It's been a shit show, basically.
我能在播客里说‘一团糟’吗？
Can I say a shit show on the podcast?
当然可以。
Absolutely.
他们会加一个‘e’，意思是任何在15
They'll put a little e, and that means that that anyone on the 15
人们看到‘e’就会以为汤姆又在谈论生殖器切割了。
Well, people will just assume with the e that Tom's talking about genital mutilation again.
所以我相信我们迟早会聊到别的话题。
So I'm sure we'll get off at some point.
很多左翼人士，比如《社会主义工人报》上周评论说，这本书还不够愤怒。
Well, a lot of left wingers the socialist worker reviewed it last week and said it wasn't angry enough.
所以我从左翼那边也收到了很多反馈，很多人说：如果你这么讨厌英国，为什么不回你来的地方呢？
And so I get quite a lot from left wing, and I've had I've had a lot of abuse people saying, if I hate Britain so much, why don't I get back to where I came from, I.
E。
E.
伍尔弗汉普顿？
Wolverhampton?
还有大量的种族主义谩骂，但我以前并不觉得这有什么大不了的，因为如今作为一名记者，这几乎是家常便饭。
And loads of racist abuse, which I didn't really consider significant because it's part of the course nowadays if you're a journalist.
但后来《卫报》发表了一篇文章，我采访了威廉·布莱尔·埃姆布勒姆，他多年来一直写和我类似的内容。
But then The Guardian wrote a story, and I interviewed William Blair Emblem, who's who's been writing similar stuff to me for many more decades.
威廉说，在他二十到三十年研究殖民地印度的历史生涯中，他从未收到过像我这样的信息。
And William said, in his twenty or thirty years of being a historian of colonial India, he hadn't got one message of the kind I get.
一条都没有。
Not one.
这让我意识到，问题出在我的肤色上。
And that made me realize, it's about my color.
你知道吗？
You know?
当你谈论帝国时，你实际上是在谈论种族。
When you're talking about empire, you're talking about race.
你谈论的是白人征服棕色人种的大致情况。
You're talking about white people conquering brown people generally.
关键是，直到现在，帝国的历史主要由白人男性讲述。
And the thing is, until now, the imperial story has been told mainly by white men.
所以，当你像大卫·约约索加这样的人，还有我，在某种程度上站出来说：哦，你知道，帝国并不像你们想的那样时，
And so suddenly, when you get brown people like David Yoyosoga and me to a much more minor degree coming up and saying, oh, you know, Empire wasn't quite like you think it was.
它会触发某些无法超越你肤色的人，使对话变成关于种族的有毒争论，而你无处可逃。
It triggers a certain kind of person who can't see past your color, and it becomes this toxic conversation about race, and there's no escaping it.
但有趣的是，萨纳姆，你的书绝对不是一篇控诉文，对吧？
But the interesting thing about that though, Sanam, is that mean, I your book absolutely isn't a diatribe, is it?
我的意思是，汤姆和我在节目前就聊过，你总是带我们进入史学争论。
I mean, Tom and I were talking about this before the show about the you know, you always give you know, you take us into the historiographical debate.
所以，你知道，帝国是无意中获得的，还是不是？
So, you know, was it acquired in an absence of mind or wasn't it?
它促进了英国经济的发展，还是反而拖累了英国经济？
Did it contribute to Britain's economy or was it even a drain on Britain's economy?
而且你常常会说，很多问题其实并没有简单的答案。
And often you you end up saying, you know, it's for that that there isn't an easy answer to a lot of these things.
事实上，一开始我就特别注意到，你一开始就明确表示，你不相信对帝国进行道德审判。
And in fact, at the beginning, I'm really struck that right at the beginning I mean, that right at the outset, you say you don't believe in doing moral audits of empires.
当然，说任何庞大而模糊的历史现象全好或全坏，这种说法显然过于简单了，我们之前在关于全球帝国的那期节目中也讨论过这一点。
And it's obviously incredibly simplistic to say I mean, we talked about this in our episode about global empires.
把任何庞大而模糊的历史现象简单地归为全好或全坏，这种说法显然太过简化了。
It's very simplistic to talk about any huge amorphous historical phenomenon and say, all good, all bad, or any of those kinds of things.
所以，难怪你觉得这些指责是冲着你个人来的，而不是针对你的书。
So did you so so you sort of it's no wonder, I guess, that you think you think that the abuse is directed at you personally rather than at the book, basically.
是的。
Yeah.
听到你们这么说真的太棒了，因为你们都是顶尖的智者。
It's really great to hear that from you guys because you guys are mega brains.
要理解帝国，唯一正确的方式就是用《弗拉什曼》的视角，因为帝国实在是太复杂了。
And that a flashman quote is the only way to approach Empire because it was bloody complex.
我们在谈论五百年的历史。
We're talking about five hundred years of history.
全球四分之一的地区发生了无数事件。
Lots of things happened across the quarter of the planet.
你居然像给播客打五星评价一样来评判它，你知道我的意思吧，这太荒谬了，但这恰恰是英国人看待帝国的唯一方式。
The idea that you're give it a five star review, like a podcast, you know what I mean, it's insane, but that is the only way the British really see Empire.
我的意思是，汤姆曾请人们为这期播客提问题。
I mean, Tom asked people to suggest questions for this podcast.
我刚刚看了一下那些问题。
I had a look at them just now.
我估计有75%的问题都在问大英帝国是好是坏。
I'd say 75% of them were about whether British Empire was good or bad.
这我要怪尼尔·弗格森。
That is I blame Niall Ferguson.
你知道的？
You know?
我们国家一直执着于讨论帝国是好是坏，现在这种观点被保守派部长们利用了。
We've had this obsession with this in this country about talking about whether Empire's good or bad, and now it's been seized upon by conservative ministers.
你知道，我们甚至不被允许贬低英国历史。
You know, we'd be not allowed to, you know, do down British history.
用这种方式看待复杂的历史真是太荒谬了。
And it's such a silly way of looking at complex history.
我的意思是，这到底意味着什么？
I mean, what does that mean?
当你声称对帝国历史感到自豪时，这到底是什么意思？
If when you say you're proud of imperial history, what does that mean?
你为奴隶制感到自豪吗？
You're proud of slavery?
你为废除奴隶制感到自豪吗？
You're proud of abolition?
但我猜，反过来也是一样的，对吧？
But I suppose it goes the other way, doesn't it?
我的意思是，说你因帝国历史而感到内疚或羞愧，同样荒谬。
I mean, it's equally ludicrous to say that you feel crippled with a sense of guilt or or you feel ashamed.
所以我认为这是双向的。
So I suppose it cuts both ways.
对吧？
Right?
完全正确。
Totally.
几年前，杰里米·科尔宾曾说，我们需要教授帝国的罪行。
And so Jeremy Corbyn was saying a few years ago, we need to teach the crimes of empire.
我对这种说法毫无兴趣。
I've got no time for that.
然后迈克尔·戈尔却说，我们需要教授帝国的辉煌。
Then Michael Goal was saying, we need to teach the glories of empire.
我对这种说法也毫无兴趣。
I've got no time for that.
教授这些东西的唯一方法是通过细致入微的分析，是的。
The only way to teach this stuff is by nuance Yeah.
而不是把它变成一张收支平衡表。
And not to make it a balance sheet thing.
但真的很难摆脱这种思维模式。
But it's really hard to get away from that.
我打赌你最后还是会谈到这个。
I bet you will end up talking about that.
我有时候也会谈到它。
I end up talking about it sometimes too.
我相信我们一定会谈到的。
I'm sure we will.
但有一种方式可以框定这个问题，我最近一直在思考：关于我们应该庆祝还是为帝国感到羞愧的争论，这在当下显然非常热门，但其实并不新鲜。
But but one way to to frame it, which I was kind of reflecting on, is that the argument over whether we should celebrate or feel ashamed of Empire, which is obviously incredibly current at the moment, is it's nothing new.
事实上，这一直是大英帝国整个历史中贯穿始终的主题。
And in fact, it's a theme that has run throughout the entire span of British imperialism.
我们收到了来自吉尔伯特女士，绅士的问题，我认为她任教于蒂奇斯。
And we've got a question from mistress Gilbert Esquire, who I think teaches at Teaches.
是的。
Yeah.
她在布里斯托尔刚刚更名的科尔斯顿学校任教。
At Colston School that just got renamed in Bristol.
所以她对这些问题非常敏感。
So is, you know, incredibly alert to all these issues.
她说，这要追溯到英国，或者说英格兰帝国主义的起源。
And she says so this is going right back to the beginnings of of British, I guess, in English imperialism.
她说，我刚给八年级学生讲授了《暴风雨》。
She says, I've just taught The Tempest to year eight.
詹姆士一世时期对帝国的态度是怎样的？
What was the Jacobean attitude to empire?
似乎当时嘲笑和贬低土著民族是可以接受的。
It seems it's okay to mock and demean the indigenous peoples.
普洛斯彼罗与卡利班。
Prospero with Caliban.
所以我认为《暴风雨》实际上充满了矛盾，普洛斯彼罗是一个复杂的人物，我们对他的态度也各不相同。
So I would say about The Tempest that actually it's incredibly ambivalent that Prospero is a complex figure, and our attitudes to him vary.
有时我们会对卡利班产生深深的同情。
There are times where we feel great sympathy, I think, for Caliban.
我们当然会对爱丽尔这些人物感到同情，他们是普洛斯彼罗几乎奴役的岛上的原住民。
Certainly feel sympathy for Ariel, the these these figures from the the island that Prospero has essentially enslaved.
这种矛盾感从一开始就存在，不是吗？
That sense of ambivalence is there right from the beginning, isn't it?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，抱怨大英帝国和歌颂大英帝国一样，都是英国的传统。
I mean I mean, it's it's as much of a British tradition to moan about British Empire as it is to celebrate it.
历史上那些抨击帝国的人物，从乔治·奥威尔到罗伯特·格雷夫斯，还有萨特南——讽刺的是，他的家族财富很大程度上来自奴隶贸易。
The figures throughout history who who attacked Empire, I mean, go from George Orwell to Robert Graves, Sathnam who ironically, you know, had a lot of his family wealth from slavery.
我们其实忘记了，科尔斯顿是个很好的例子。
We forget actually, Colston's a good example.
竖立科尔斯顿雕像的那个人很难筹到钱，因为没多少人想要那座雕像。
The guy who put up that Colston statue struggled to raise the money because not many people wanted that statue.
克莱夫，罗伯特·克莱夫，在世时极其不受欢迎，曾被拖到议会前受审。
Clive, Robert Clive, wildly unpopular in his lifetime, dragged in front of parliament.
塞缪尔·约翰逊说，他割喉自尽，是因为被自己的罪行压垮了。
Samuel Johnson saying, you know, he slashed his throat because he was overwhelmed by his cron crimes.
但一百年后，他的雕像却被竖立在白厅，而印度总督却说：你知道吗？
But then, you know, a hundred years later, his statue's being put up in Whitehall, and the viceroy of India is is saying, you know what?
这完全是不必要的挑衅。
This is needlessly provocative.
但如今，却有人在庆祝它。
But then now, you have people celebrating it.
所以，是的，这很复杂，不是吗？
And so, yeah, it's complex, isn't it?
这些叙事是会变化的。
And these narratives change.
但这种反帝国主义的叙事，我认为和任何其他东西一样，都是英国式的。
But that anti imperial narrative is as British as anything else, I'd say.
所以这里存在一种有趣的张力。
So interesting there's an interesting tension, though, here.
对吧？
Right?
因为按照你的说法，你书里提到的一点是，我们应该努力就帝国的历史达成一种国家共识。
Because at the end of your mean, I one of the things in your book is you say, we should try and get to a kind of national consensus about the history of the empire.
但从某种意义上说，你这本书的启示，以及英国与帝国互动的全部历史表明，这种共识从未存在过。
But in a way, the lesson of your book, and indeed of all the history of of Britain's engagement with empire, is that there never has been a consensus.
你甚至可以说，任何一个国家叙事的特点就是，它永远都不会存在。
And you could argue I mean, one of the things about any national story is that there never will be.
我的意思是，由于过去具有政治性，注定总是充满分歧的。
I mean, by definition, the past, because it's political, is always gonna be divisive.
所以，你不觉得有一种想法，就是大家手拉手，欢呼着达成一个关于帝国历史的共识性叙述吗？
So don't do you think there's an element that, you know, that the idea of a sort of everybody joining hands and saying, hurrah, we've united around a a sort of a consensual account of our imperial past.
对我来说，至少，这似乎不太可能，这么说吧。
I mean, to me, at least, that seems unlikely, shall we say.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
历史就是争论，因此争论总会存在。
History is argument, and so there's always gonna be argument.
需要有
There needs
争论。
to be argument.
我们需要学会以更文明的方式就这些问题展开争论。
We need to learn how to argue about this stuff in a more civilized way.
话虽如此，还是有事实存在的。
Having said that, there are facts.
最近几周，我们看到有个人在主流媒体上撰文，质疑塔斯马尼亚种族灭绝事件是否发生以及为何发生。
And so lately, last few weeks, we've had a certain person writing in the mainstream press questioning the Tasmanian genocide about whether it happened and why it happened.
你知道吗？
And you know what?
在我看来，我读过九到十篇关于此事的不同叙述，即使像简·莫里斯这样对帝国充满怀旧之情的人，也没有否认这一事实，但突然间它却被质疑了。
In all the I think I've read nine or 10 different accounts of that, even from people like Jan Morris, who are very nostalgic of Empire, none of them deny it as a fact, but then suddenly it's being questioned.
我认为确实存在事实，而且我认为确实存在某种东西。
And I think there are such things as facts, and then I do think there's something there is
如今出现了虚假历史，就像曾经有虚假新闻一样。
fake history now in the way there was fake news.
因为我们对这些知之甚少，公众讨论非常肤浅。
And because we know so little, the public debate is very thin.
所以就塔斯马尼亚人这个话题而言，本质上，我意思是，这场种族灭绝实际上在《HUL》开头就被提及了
So on on the topic of, say, of of the Tasmanians, that essentially, I mean, a genocide that that inspire actually inspire you know, it's it's it's name checked at the beginning of h u l's
是的
Yeah.
世界大战
War the Worlds.
有点吧
Kind of
其中之一
one of the
伟大的反帝国主义小说之一，因为本质上，《世界大战》描述了伦敦遭受了英国对世界其他地区所施加的暴行，特别是针对塔斯马尼亚人。
the great anti imperial novels because essentially, the War of the Worlds is a visitation on London of what the the British have visited on other parts of the world and he specifically the the Tasmanians.
我认为，十九世纪后半叶英国帝国主义权力日益变得有毒的一个关键原因，正如你之前提到的，是种族被伪造成某种科学依据的东西。
There's a sense in which what what really makes the exercise of of British imperial power increasingly toxic in the second half of the nineteenth century, I think, is what you were talking about earlier, which is the the transformation of race into something supposedly scientifically based.
我想，每一个伟大的帝国民族都倾向于认为自己是最优秀的。
And I guess that every great imperial people have tended to assume that they're the best.
因为本质上，如果你不认为自己是最优秀的，你就不会拥有走出去征服他人的自信。
Because essentially, if you don't think you're best, you're not gonna have the self confidence to go out and conquer people.
我想到了希腊人、罗马人、阿拉伯人。
And I can think of the Greeks, the Romans, the Arabs.
我的意思是，每个人在帝国鼎盛时期都会说：我们是最优秀的。
I mean, everybody, you know, in their imperial heyday, they say we're the best.
在我看来，英国人这种表现的特别有毒之处在于，一种伪达尔文主义为它提供了所谓的科学依据。
What what what's peculiarly toxic about the British manifestation of that, it seems to me, is that a kind of cod Darwinism provides supposedly a scientific rationale for it.
尽管基本上，这种理论的基础后来被纳粹彻底摧毁，并成为禁忌话题。
And even though that I mean, basically, you know, the whole basis of that gets incinerated by, by by the Nazis, and it becomes a taboo subject.
但你的感受——作为显然身处这场风暴中心的人——你觉得，即使现在几乎没人会公开说‘是的’，这种影响依然持久存在。
But your sense and and speaking as someone who is is obviously kind of in the eye of this particular storm, your sense is that that has left a leg an enduring legacy even though it it is not taught very, very few people would stand up and say, yes.
我是科学种族主义者。
I'm a scientific racist.
但这种影响依然持续存在。
But the legacy of that endures.
绝对如此。
Absolutely.
是的。
Yeah.
我会说，这种影响体现在我们的种族暴力中。
I would say, I mean, endures in the our racial violence.
我的意思是，当二十世纪五十年代伦敦的黑人遭到袭击时，大英帝国同时在肯尼亚对茅茅起义者做着可怕的事。
Mean, when black people were being attacked in London in nineteen fifties, the British Empire was still doing terrible things with the Mau Mau at the same time in Kenya.
当时伦敦对黑人的态度，和帝国时期的肯尼亚完全一样。
And the attitudes were the same towards black people in London as they as they were in Imperial Kenya.
你还能看到，贯穿于帝国晚期以及二十世纪六七十年代英国社会的肤色壁垒。
And you see in, I would say, in the color bar that ran through, you know, late Empire and through British society in the sixties and seventies and eighties.
我的意思是，直到1984年，伍尔弗汉普顿的工人俱乐部还实行种族隔离。
I mean, working men's clubs in Wolverhampton had a color bar until 1984.
你知道的吗？
You know?
即使到现在，我敢说，在伍尔弗汉普顿，如果你是白人或棕色人种，有些酒吧你可以去，有些则不能去。
Even now, I'd say there's certain pubs you go to if you're white or brown in Wolverhampton and certain pubs you don't go to.
我认为这背后有着非常强大的遗产。
And I think there's a very powerful leg.
我们国家存在制度性种族主义的原因在于，我们曾经拥有帝国制度，而十九世纪的帝国是种族主义的。
The reason we have institutional racism in this country is that we had the institution of empire, which was, in the nineteenth century, racist.
但我为此感到自豪。
But I'm proud of it.
但我们必须记住，种族这个概念在十三到十六世纪之间并不存在。
But we've got to remember that race as a concept didn't exist between the thirteenth and sixteenth centuries.
这是一个相当现代的想法。
It's quite a modern idea.
对吧？
Right?
而且，随着十九世纪这些科学理论的出现，你还看到了一种荒谬的雅利安理论。
And also, you've got this bizarre as these scientific theories emerged in the nineteenth century, you have this bizarre a Aryan theory.
你听说过这个吗？
Do you know about this?
这包括了印度人和锡克教徒。
That encompassed Indians and Sikhs.
这正是为什么我们锡克教徒被视为所谓的‘尚武种族’，甚至有点像‘不错的棕色人种’的原因。
It's part of the reason why we Sikhs were regarded as, you know, a martial race and kind of almost good brownies.
但要理解这一点，对我来说实在太多了。
But it's quite a lot to get my head around that.
而且，你知道，希特勒在印度仍然相当受欢迎，部分原因就是这种雅利安种族理论。
And, you know, Hitler is still quite popular in India in India partly because of this air and race theory.
所以我的意思是，关于这一点，但另一方面，英国与印度的互动也体现在：印欧语系的发现，源于许多在印度的英国官员对当地文明的浓厚兴趣。
So what I I mean, on on on that, that but but that's also the other side, I guess, of, say, the British engagement with specifically India, is that the discovery of Indo European languages is kind of bred off a fascination on the part of many of the British officials who who are in India with the civilization around them.
因此，尽管存在一种文化优越感，甚至日益增强的种族优越感，但令人困惑的是，这种感觉与一种着迷乃至近乎自卑的情绪交织在一起——那些研究梵语的官员们被它的美与力量深深震撼。
So if there's a sense of of superior cultural superiority and increasingly racial superiority, Bewilderingly, it's interfused with a sense of of of fascination and kind of almost inferiority because these officials who are studying Sanskrit are blown away by its beauties, by its power.
他们说，梵语文学的杰作甚至超越了希腊语和拉丁语的作品。
You know, they're saying that the masterpieces of Sanskrit literature are greater than those of of of Greek and Latin.
所以，这正是为什么事情如此复杂，对吧？
So that is part of what makes it so difficult, isn't it?
是的
Yeah.
要理解这个帝国，同一批人既能够表现出令人震惊的种族主义，又同样能够说，我们被描绘成森林里的野蛮人，而印度人却在创造这些伟大的杰作。
To get a handle on the empire that the same people who are perfectly capable of shocking racism are equally capable of saying, you know, we were painted savages in the woods while the people in India were creating these great masterpieces.
不
No.
绝对如此
Absolutely.
在种族混合，比如跨种族关系方面，也发生了同样的情况。
And the same thing happened with the attitude towards the racial racial mixing in, like, inter interracial relationships.
在东印度公司历史的某个阶段，这些关系基本上是被鼓励的。
They were more or less encouraged during a certain phase of the East India Company history.
你知道吗？
You know?
我认为东印度公司曾为英国人和印度妻子之间的婚礼提供资助。
I think the East India Company would pay for weddings between British people and India Indian wives.
但后来维多利亚时代的人来了，白人女性开始能够前往印度，突然间，这成了禁忌。
But then the Victorians come along, and it becomes possible for, you know, white women to travel to India, and suddenly, it's a taboo.
如果你有跨种族的关系，就会丢掉工作。
You'll lose your job if you have a mixed race relationship.
而这就是同一个帝国，在短短几十年间的变化。
And that's the same empire just over a few decades.
萨姆，我想问问你关于你提到自己是锡克教徒的事，我觉得你书中这一点特别有趣。
Sam, I wanted to ask you about some you mentioned being a Sikh, and I thought that was one of the most interesting parts of your book.
你谈到了作为锡克教徒的写作经历。
You talk about the experience of of writing as a Sikh.
我的意思是，人们常常笼统地使用‘印度人’这个词，但作为锡克教徒的具体经历却不同，正如你所说，锡克教徒被视为英勇的、带引号的‘好印度人’。
I mean, not know, people sort of use the word Indian very vaguely, but the the experience of specifically being a Sikh, and as you said, of Sikhs being seen as marshal and as, inverted commas, good Indians.
而且你对这种身份是如何被建构的提出了很有趣的看法——因为一些历史学家认为，这是英国人强加给锡克教徒的完全人为的身份。
And and how and you are you're quite interesting about how much that was constructed, that kind of because some historians think that's this is an identity that's completely constructed and sort of foisted onto Sikhs by the British.
但你似乎认为，这并不是全部真相。
But you seem to think that that's not quite the whole story.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
这并不是全部真相，因为我们自己也有尚武的传统和历史。
It's not quite the whole story because there was we had our own martial theory, you know, history.
第十代上师将锡克教徒转变为一种尚武的信仰。
The tenth guru turned the Sikhs into a martial kind of creed.
他们不得不这么做，因为当时正遭受迫害，于是塑造了一种身份。
They had to because they're being persecuted and created an identity.
但在印度兵变时期，我们的数量正在减少。
But we were fading in numbers, you know, around the time of the Indian Mutiny.
你知道，锡克教徒当时有被并入印度教大众群体的风险。
You know, the Sikhs were at risk of being merged into the Hindu mass, you know.
而当锡克教徒在兵变中站在英国人一边时，英国人认为我们值得信赖，于是将我们理想化，甚至出版书籍解释我们为何拥有天生适合战斗的体格——正如你从我身上也能看出来。
And it was the British, when we took the side, when the Sikhs took the side of the British during the mutiny, decided that we were trustworthy and therefore fetishized us, even published books explaining why we had exactly the right physique for being fighters, as as I'm sure you can tell from me.
我们的鼻子大小合适，肩膀也恰到好处。
And we had the right sized noses, the right shoulders.
而且，是的，让我震惊的是，我们锡克教徒自我认知的方式并非由英国人创造，而是被大英帝国加速塑造的。
And, yeah, it blew my mind that not only the way we see ourselves, the Sikhs, was created by British was not created, but accelerated by British Empire.
但可以说，英国人拯救了我们这个社群，因为成为英国帝国的锡克族战士形象变得极为流行，导致此后几十年锡克教徒的人数大幅增长。
But arguably, they saved us as a community because it became so popular to become, you know, a Sikh martial race employee of the British Empire that the numbers increased massively in the decades afterwards.
甚至加入印度军队的印度教徒也被鼓励举行锡克教式的宗教仪式。
And even Hindus joining the Indian army were encouraged to do the Sikh kind of religious ceremonies.
为了证明他们的尚武精神，
In order to sort of prove their martial valor,
我想是这样。
I suppose.
我可以插一句，就这个话题问你一个跟进的问题吗？
So can I jump in and ask you a quick follow-up to that?
我对此非常着迷。
I I'm fascinated.
你在书中多次提到，而且你有一句特别幽默的话，我实际上已经在自己的书里引用过，说的是出租车司机问你来自哪里，你回答说：‘我来自伍尔弗汉普顿。’
You talk a lot in the book, and and and you've got a very funny line that I think I've quoted in one of my own books, actually, about taxi drivers asking you where you're from and you say, I'm I'm from Wolverhampton.
而且，当人们叫你滚回老家时，你会说，其实我来自伍尔弗汉普顿。
And, you know, people saying go back home and you say, well, I'm actually from Wolverhampton.
你知道吗，你是想让我从休斯顿坐火车赶过去吗？
Know, do you want me to jump on a train from Houston or whatever?
当你谈到印度的锡克教徒时，你用‘我们’来指锡克人，而‘他们’则指英国人。
When you're talking about the Sikhs in India, you used the word we to mean the Sikhs, and they was the British.
所以，当你写这本书、思考这些问题时，你有没有发现自己有意识或无意识地在不同主体立场之间切换，你明白我的意思吗？
So do you did you find yourself kind of when you're writing the book and when you're thinking about these kind of issues, do you find yourself consciously or unconsciously slipping between kind of subjectivities, if you know what I mean.
说实话，这完全是无意识的。
To be honest, it's entirely unconscious.
很多人评论过，当我谈论自己作为英国人、谈论大英帝国时，总爱说‘我们’。
Loads of people have commented on the fact that I keep saying we when I talk about being British, about the British Empire.
我会说‘我们’。
I say we.
而且，一位历史学家告诉我——因为我并不是历史学家。
And apparently, and an historian, I I send the because I'm not a historian.
我在出版前把这本书寄给了五位不同的历史学家，他们都告诉我，不能用‘我们’。
I send the book out to five different historians before publication, and they all said, you can't say we.
这是本科生阶段最常被提醒的一条规则。
It's the number one rule thing you get told as an undergraduate.
别再说‘我们’了。
Stop saying we.
这跟你没关系。
It's not you.
但我就是想用‘我们’，因为这就是我的感受，我希望这是一种包容性的表达，而不是指责性的，因为目前的很多讨论都在指责人、妖魔化对方。
But I wanted to say we because that's the way I feel, and I wanted it to be an inclusive thing and not accusatory because so much of this conversation is about canceling people and demonizing the other side.
你知道，作为锡克教徒，我并不这样觉得。
And, you know, as a Sikh, I don't feel that way.
我觉得自己和你、汤姆一样，都深陷于这个帝国的历史之中。
I feel as implicated an empire as probably you you and Tom.
因为我觉得，英国人和十九世纪的锡克人之间的关系有一种奇怪的——或许也不算奇怪——但非常意味深长的矛盾心态，因为当时的英国官员和将军们似乎对征服锡克帝国怀有一种某种程度的愧疚。
Because because I I I reckon that the there is a kind of strange or maybe it's not strange, but I mean, a really telling ambivalence in the relationship of the British to the Sikhs in in the nineteenth century because there seems to be a kind of certain measure of guilt on the part of of British officials and generals over the over the conquest of the Sikh Empire.
所以领导这场战役的纳皮尔，他说这是一桩卑劣的勾当。
So so Napier who who who leads the the campaign, I mean, he says it's a rascally business.
我记得是孟买总督埃尔芬斯通说过，因为这正好是在阿富汗战争之后，你知道，阿富汗战争的惨败，这正是第一部《弗拉什曼》小说的主题。
And there's it was I think it's Elphinstone who was governor of Bombay says that, because this this is just after the Afghan war, you know, the disaster of the Afghan war, which provides the theme of the first Flashman novel.
彻底的灾难，然后英国人又进去征服了信德。
Complete disaster, and then the British go in and conquer Sind.
他形容这就像一个刚被揍过的街头混混，转头去打自己的妻子。
And he kind of says that it's like, you know, a street bully who's been beaten up who goes in and beats up his wife.
这种观点，你知道，你可能会以为是今天丘吉尔学院的一位觉醒派学者才会说的，嗯。
And and and that's, you know, that that's the kind those are the kind of sentiments that would you know, you you you might expect to hear it from a a a woke academic at Churchill College today Mhmm.
但这些话竟出自亲自实施这些行为的英国官员之口。
But coming from the very British officials who did it.
而一旦他们征服了信德，就大量借鉴了锡克人的帝国治理方式。
And then once they've conquered it, they're modeling a lot of their imperial approaches on on that of the Sikhs.
比如利用开伯尔山口作为门户，这原本就是锡克人最先开始的做法。
So the the idea of using the Kaiba Pass as a kind of gateway, I mean, that's it was the Sikhs who began that.
我认为这归结于一个事实，那就是锡克人几乎击败了英国人。
I think it's and you all go back to the fact that the the Sikhs almost beat the British.
是的，没错。
And we Yes.
完全正确。
Completely.
胜负真的悬而未决。
It was absolutely in the balance.
所以，你越深入研究，就越觉得这件事复杂得多。
And I I so so there's a again, the more you look at it, the more complicated it comes to seem.
是的。
Yeah.
我应该说，必要时，英国人确实大规模且残忍地杀害了锡克人，有时甚至把他们绑在大炮口上。
And I should say, actually, when necessary, the British did murder the Sikhs in large numbers and brutally sometimes tied to the ends of canon.
你知道，有一个特定的锡克教派被炸得粉身碎骨。
You know, there's a particular Sikh sect who have blown to smithereens.
这种将人绑在大炮口处惩罚的目的在于，你无法享有传统的丧葬权利，因为你的身体碎片会散落在广大区域。
And the point of that punishment of being tied to the end of a canon is that you can't have conventional funeral rights, you know, because your body's parts are scattered across a large area.
基本上非常复杂。
So complex, basically.
你在书中提到过。
And you talk in the book.
你在书中谈到，显然，这种被炸出大炮的遭遇对受害者造成了毁灭性的影响。
You talk in your book about the the the obviously, I mean, this has devastating effect on the person who gets blown out of a cannon.
但更引人注目的是，你还谈到了这种行为可能对实际开炮的人所产生的影响。
But also rather strikingly, you talk about the effect it may have had on the people who actually fired them.
完全如此。
Totally.
想象一下，因为这非常
Imagine Because it's very
很难将你自认为是善良的基督徒或在传播文明的信念，与实施这种行为的后果调和起来。
hard to square a conviction that you're maybe a good Christian or, bringing civilization with the impact of doing that.
是的。
Yeah.
有时观众人群中会有妇女和儿童，看着人们被炸得粉身碎骨。
And there were women and children in the audience in the crowd sometimes, you know, watching people being belonged to smithereens.
我的意思是，这肯定在心理上令人不安。
I mean, that's gotta be psychologically disturbing.
这是保罗·吉尔罗伊谈到的，关于殖民对殖民者本身的影响。
That's Paul Gilroy who talks about that, about the effect of colonization upon colonizers.
还有乔治·奥威尔，当然，他在一篇伟大的散文中讲述了自己不得不开枪射杀一头大象的事。
And actually, George Orwell, of course, that in great essay about where he has to shoot an elephant.
那篇文章叫《射象》，对吧？
It's called shooting an elephant, isn't it?
是的。
Yeah.
他感到自己被羞辱了，作为殖民者，帝国中最深的恐惧就是被人嘲笑。
And how he is made to feel ridiculous, that as an imperialist, your fear in empire is constantly that you're be laughed at.
但事实上，我对这一点有点不同意见。
But actually, I would I would quibble with that a tiny bit.
我认为总有一些人会感到内疚，这在所有帝国中可能都是如此。
I think there's always people who do feel guilty, and that's probably been the case in all empires.
那些天性如此的人，或许由于他们的性格或智力倾向，会被羞愧或悔恨所困扰。
People who are their their particular disposition, maybe, their temperamental or intellectual disposition is they will be haunted by shame or by regret or or whatever.
但事实上，在某些方面，我的结论不同，我认为很多人并没有受到创伤，他们实际上享受统治帝国和征服他人。
But actually, in some ways, I mean, I take a different conclusion, which is I think a lot of people weren't traumatized, and they they actually loved running empires and conquering people.
而且，某种程度上，这是一个更令人不安的故事，因为确实有很多人——我记得一个精彩的故事。
And, actually, in a way, it's a more disturbing story that actually lots of people I mean, I can remember a great story.
我的意思是，这完全是另一个帝国。
I mean, this is a completely different empire.
BBC负责历史节目的马丁·戴维森讲过一个关于他亲戚的故事。
There's a a story Martin Davidson, who worked for the BBC running their history programs, tells a story about a relative of his.
我想不起是谁了。
I can't remember who it wasn't.
他们正在谈论匈牙利，这位亲戚说：‘匈牙利啊，真是个美好的国家。’
They were talking about Hungary, and the the relative said, oh, Hungary, you know, wonderful country.
风景太棒了，你知道的，女人非常漂亮，城市也十分宏伟。
Great scenes, you know, the women are very pretty, very handsome cities.
他问：‘你什么时候去的匈牙利？’
And he was like, when were you in Hungary?
这个人说：‘哦，我一生中最美好的日子就是在1942年左右待在那里。’
And and this guy said, oh, I have best days of my life, you know, I was there in 1942 or something.
你想想，这本该是一个黑暗的篇章，本该让你终生愧疚，可他却把它回忆成一段愉快的、类似间隔年的经历。
And you think, jeez, this is meant to be a very dark chapter that you're haunted by, and you're remembering it as, like, this sort of jolly, you know, the equivalent of a gap year.
我觉得这几乎更令人不安，不是吗？
And I think that's almost more disturbing, isn't it?
可能有很多人曾参与过帝国的暴行、征服他人、屠杀妇女儿童等等，但他们实际上并没有因此受到创伤。
That there are lots of people may have been involved in imperial atrocities or in conquering people or blasting women and children to smithereens or whatever, but actually, maybe they're not traumatized by it.
是的。
Yeah.
实际上，我刚读了亚历克·伦顿的书，讲的是他直面家族奴隶制历史的故事，书中提到一个苏格兰人前往加勒比海地区。
Actually, was reading Alex Renton's book, which is about him facing up to his family's history of slavery, and he tells a story about a Scottish guy who goes off to the Caribbean.
他第一天就看到另一个苏格兰同事因为奴隶上菜出错而狠狠惩罚他，感到非常震惊。
And he's on his first day, he sees a Scot another Scottish colleague of him, or he's a slave in the face for serving the food wrong, and he's absolutely full of dismay.
但十年后，这一切对他来说都不再有任何困扰。
But then ten years later, none of it bothers him.
你提到的是什么？
And you quote, what's it?
是托马斯·西斯特尔伍德吗？
Thomas Thistlewood, is it?
那个在牙买加的奴隶主，他会对奴隶施加难以启齿的酷刑，
The the the slave owner in Jamaica who, I mean, flicks unspeakable punishments on
而且把这一切都记录在日记里。
And records it all in a diary.
他把这一切都记在了自己的日记里。
Records it all in his diary.
强奸、酷刑。
Rapes, torture.
我的意思是，令人作呕到我
I mean, so revolting that I
是的。
Yeah.
甚至都不想被提起。
Even Doesn't wanna be talked about.
还没到那种地步。
Doesn't stretch to that extreme.
实际上，我之所以了解到他，是因为他是有记录以来第一个在西印度群岛打板球的人。
And I and actually, he the reason that I came across him is that he's the first person to known person to to have played a cricket match in the West Indies.
哦，天哪。
So Oh, wow.
他竟然用奴隶来平整出一块板球场。
The idea that he's he's using slaves to carve out a a cricket pitch.
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是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
他不是发誓要成为启蒙时代的睡眠者吗？
Swore as a as a Sleep man of the enlightenment, didn't he?
他读了这么多书，却没意识到自己在打板球。
He's reading all these books, didn't realize he was playing cricket.
哦，板球从一开始就被玷污了。
Oh, cricket cricket is being tainted from the beginning.
我认为这就是这个故事的教训，安妮特。
I think that's the lesson of this, Annette.
也许可以把这个讨论留到以后，但我想说的是，这个故事最精彩的部分是康拉德的《黑暗之心》，后来被改编成了《现代启示录》。
Maybe save that discussion for a later for a later but I guess I mean, I guess, again, though, the the the the great story of that is, Conrad's, Heart of Darkness, which then gets translated into Apocalypse Now.
殖民者可以进入一个道德规范彻底瓦解的黑暗之心。
The idea that that the colonizer can enter a heart of darkness where all moral norms get dissolved.
这可以说是一种噩梦，显然是源于帝国运作的直接经验。
And that's a kind of very I mean, that that that's a that's a a nightmare that is clearly bred of direct experience for functioning of Empire.
嗯。
Mhmm.
它挑战了我们关于废奴的叙事——即我们卷入了某种可怕的事情，然后逐渐醒悟。
And it challenges the, I guess, the narrative we have with abolition that we we got involved in something terrible and we gradually saw the light.
事情并不总是这样发展的。
It's not always the way it went.
嗯，我认为这是一个完美的停顿点。
Well, I think, that's a perfect point on which to have a break.
也许我们可以进一步探讨废奴是如何运作的。
And maybe we could we could pursue that theme a bit further on how abolition worked.
不。
No.
我打算
I'm gonna do
因为实际上我不想那样做，因为
that because actually I don't want to do that because
我想把奴隶制的话题留到下一期再讲。
I I want to save slavery for another episode.
是的。
Yeah.
多米尼克在踢腿。
Dominic's kicking.
我已经失去了
I've I've lost
我的汤姆一直试图带我们进入休息环节，但他完全失败了。
my Tom has been attempt Tom has been attempting to take us into the break, but he's completely failed.
所以我们现在休息一下，广告后回来。
So we're gonna have a break, and we shall be back after the ad.
一分钟后见。
See you in a minute.
再见。
Goodbye.
欢迎回到《余下的历史》。
Welcome back to the rest is history.
汤姆·荷兰本来要带我们回来，但他已经撑不住了。
Tom Holland was gonna bring us back in, but he's he's given up the ghost.
他告诉我们，当你不在播音时，他喝得太多了。
He's been drinking too much, he tells us, when you were off air.
所以，汤姆一直是在醉酒状态下做这些播客，但我没想到这会出问题，现在确实出了问题。
So, Tom has always done these podcasts drunk, but I didn't think it would be a problem, and now it is.
总之，我们继续吧。
Anyway, let's continue.
汤姆，我相信如果你能说出话来，你有个问题要问萨特纳姆。
Tom, I believe if you can get your words out, you have a question for satnaam.
非常感谢，多米尼克。
Thank you very much, Dominic.
我同意。
I do.
这是来自哈齐姆·阿明的问题，他说：大英帝国塑造现代世界的方式，就像阿拉伯帝国或中国帝国塑造各自世界一样。
And this is from Hazim Amin, and he asks, the British Empire shaped the modern world in the same way that the Arab Empires or Chinese Empires shaped their respective worlds.
将这种现象简单地归为完全的好或坏，会不会过于简单了？
Wouldn't it be too simplistic to label this phenomenon wholly good or bad?
我想，我想我们之前已经提到过这一点。
I think I mean, I think we touched on that.
但这是一个有趣的问题。
But this is the interesting question.
这些标签本身难道不是受到帝国影响的吗？
Aren't these labels themselves influenced by the empire?
所以，从某种意义上说，我们对帝国主义背景下‘好’与‘坏’的理解，不正是帝国主义的遗产吗？
So in a sense, isn't our understanding of what is good and bad in the context of imperialism itself a legacy of imperialism?
是的。
Yes.
我想你们在关于帝国的播客中已经提到过这一点，我从中学到了很多。
I guess you guys touched upon this in your podcast about empires in general, which I learned a lot from.
当然，记住大英帝国并不是唯一存在过的帝国，这一点非常重要。
And it's definitely useful to remember the British Empire wasn't the only empire that ever happened.
对吧？
Right?
最近由益普索·穆雷进行的一项调查显示，我们对欧洲各地的人进行了调查，发现实际上荷兰人比我们更加怀旧。
And there was a survey done recently by Ipsom Murray, which found that, you know, we surveyed people across Europe and found that actually people in The Netherlands were even more nostalgic than us.
我们是第二怀旧的，但荷兰人非常怀旧。
We were the second most nostalgic, but the Dutch, very nostalgic.
实际上，德国人和法国人也是如此。
And actually, the Germans and the French too.
而且我认为，你几乎不会遇到多少锡克教徒会说锡克帝国不是卓越、多元且和平的。
And actually, I think you won't meet meet many Sikhs who say that Sikh Empire was anything other than brilliant and cosmopolitan and peaceful.
我本来想问你一下。
I was gonna ask you.
也就是说，锡克人对他们帝国的看法是什么？
Is that is that the I mean, is that the so what what is the Sikh take on their empire?
他们认为这非常出色。
That it was brilliant.
非常好。
It was great.
它就是
It was it
非常美好、包容。
was absolutely lovely, inclusive.
我们甚至为英国人庆祝圣诞节。
We celebrated Christmas even for the British.
我从未听过任何关于锡克帝国的负面评价，这对我来说很重要，因为人类天性中似乎总想对某些事物抱有最美好的想象。
And I've never heard a negative word said about Sikh Empire, and it's important for me to remember that there's something in human nature that wants us to believe the best about
穆斯林和印度教徒对锡克帝国怎么看？
What do what do what do Muslims and Hindus say about the Sikh Empire?
实际上，我从来没读过。
Actually, I've I've never read it.
我读过的都是关于锡克帝国的锡克人记载。
All I've read is Sikh accounts of the Sikh Empire.
我很想读一读穆斯林或
I've I would love to read a Muslim or
这挺有意思的
It's a kind of interesting
问题。
question.
关于它。
Of it.
是的。
Yeah.
还有另一个问题我觉得非常有趣，它在你书的结尾出现，其实贯穿全书，约翰·安德鲁斯也提到了这一点。
There's another question that's I I think is fascinating, and it and it comes at the end of your well, it comes throughout your book, and it's, John Andrews sort of picks up on it.
他说，鉴于这里和其他地方的情况如此糟糕，我很想知道，萨特纳姆是否仍然像书中表现的那样乐观，认为让更多人了解帝国的历史就足以推动这场辩论向前发展。
And he says, given how awful things appear here and elsewhere, I would be interested to know if Satnam remains as optimistic as he seems in the book that wider education about the facts of Empire is enough to move this debate forward.
我认为这是你书中一个非常有趣的问题，因为你本质上是主张通过大量教育来认识帝国历史。
Now I think this is a fascinating issue in your book because you're basically caught for a lot of education about empire.
而其中的潜台词或假设是：人们对历史了解得越多，就会变得越友善。
And and the the sort of subtext or the assumption is the more people know about history, the nicer they will be.
我想我们之前已经几次谈到过这个问题，我有一个被一些人视为完全疯狂且异端的观点，那就是：人们越了解历史，越深入思考，就越有可能对邻国发动先发制人的打击。
Now I would I think we've done we've touched on this a few times, and I have what some people regard as an utterly deranged and heretical position, which is often the more people know about history and the more they think a bit about it, the more likely they are to launch a preemptive strike on their neighbors.
那么，你真的认为，了解一段能够凝聚七千万人乃至更多人的历史，并且找到一种真正能让人更加团结的教授方式，是可能的吗？
So so what do you do you honest do you genuinely think that learning that a, there is a a history that can unify, you know, 70,000,000 people or whatever, and, b, that there is a way to teach it that will genuinely bring people more to more together?
我相信是可能的。
I do.
我的意思是，在过去六个月里，要保持乐观确实很难，因为这件事已经变得充满敌意。
I mean, it has been quite hard to retain my optimism in the last six months given it's become a cordial.
我的意思是，政府与黑人的命也是命支持者之间关于帝国的争论充满毒性，而且被保守党以一种类似焦点小组的方式利用了。
I mean, the arguments about Empire between the government and Black Lives Matter supporters are toxic, and it's been weaponized by the Tories in a kind of focus group way.
显然他们做了一些研究，发现声称对帝国历史感到自豪，在米德兰兹地区以及上次大选中支持他们的选民中效果很好。
So they've obviously done some research as they found out that saying they've been proud of imperial history works well in the Midlands and with the people who voted for them in the last general election.
我仍然保持乐观的原因是，年轻人知道的比我多得多，而且他们非常积极。
The reason I'm still optimistic is that young people know a lot more than I did, And they're really keen.
他们从互联网、Instagram 以及《黑豹》这样的电影中获取信息和教育。
They're getting their information and education from the Internet, from Instagram, from films like Black Panther.
我觉得商界实际上也在一定程度上接受了黑人的命也是命和历史议题。
And I feel like the business world has have have also actually embraced the Black Lives Matter and history to a degree.
尽管存在巨大的反弹，但我相信最终年轻人会获胜。
So even though there's massive backlash, I think in the end, young people will win.
但《黑豹》完全是幻想，对吧？
But but Black Panther's a total fantasy, isn't it?
是的。
It is.
对。
Yeah.
但在大英博物馆有一个场景。
But there's a scene in the British Museum.
你还记得那一段吗？
Do you remember that bit?
抱歉，我没看过。
I haven't seen it, I'm afraid.
我也没看过。
I haven't seen it.
我从来没看过超级英雄电影，因为我抵制，因为蜘蛛侠。
Never seen a superhero film cause I boycott it because of Spider Man.
哦，你该看看。
Oh, you should watch it.
我觉得它
I think it's
是影史票房第九高的电影。
the ninth biggest film of all time.
我觉得它们太无聊了。
I find them so boring.
我总是看一会儿就睡着了，我的意思是，我知道这听起来像个老头说的话，但我真没想过自己会这么说，但现在的动作戏实在太多了。
I always fall asleep just I mean, I know this is basically the words of an old man, but but I actually I never thought I would say this, but there is too much action.
是的。
Yeah.
剧情根本看不懂。
Don't know plot.
没错。
No.
《黑豹》绝对值得一看，它让我感到相当乐观。
Black Panther's definitely worth watching, and it it left me feeling quite optimistic.
从我生活中的侄女们身上，我知道她们都是二十多岁，她们真的很在意这些电影，也从中获得很多共鸣。
And I I just know from my nieces in my life, you know, who are in their twenties, they just they really care, and they really get a lot of their stuff.
我觉得教室其实没那么重要。
The classroom doesn't really matter that much, I think.
但考虑到我们有五百年的历史，涵盖全球，而且极其复杂，我们几乎无法就任何事情达成一致，他们到底该学些什么呢？
But what is it that they're gonna study bearing in mind that we've got five hundred years of history and it spans the world and it's all incredibly complicated, and we can't basically agree on anything.
很多孩子每周只上四十分钟的历史课。
A lot of kids do forty minutes of history a week.
是的。
Yeah.
教育体系中关于历史课程的唯一法定内容是大屠杀。
The the only statutory thing on the education in the history curriculum is the holocaust.
大屠杀。
Holocaust.
我认为在第三阶段会涉及一些帝国历史的教学，但差异非常大。
I think there's a bit of teaching of empire in key stage three, but it varies massively.
但有趣的是，斯蒂芬·劳伦斯调查和温德拉什调查都得出了相同的结论：我们需要更好地教授大英帝国历史。
But, you know, interesting, the Stephen Lawrence inquiry and the Windrush inquiry both made the same conclusion that we need to teach British Empire better.
我觉得我们一直在原地打转。
And I think we go around in circles.
我们正面临一场种族危机，却只是惊呼：天哪。
We have a racial crisis, and we're like, oh my god.
我们应该反思为何我们是一个多元文化社会，并更好地教授历史。
We should reflect on the reason why we are multicultural society and teach history better.
我相信你是这么认为的。
And I I believe you do.
我认为英国的部分地区已经在这样做了。
And I think parts of Britain are already doing that.
威尔士的国家课程已经做出了改变。
The Welsh national curriculum has changed already.
希望英格兰也能迎头赶上。
And hopefully, England will catch up.
我的意思是，这确实是个难题，对吧？
I mean, it's a difficult one, isn't it?
因为我一直认为，呃，这又是我一个疯狂的观点。
Because I always used to think that the that actually again, another demented view of mine.
我以前一直认为，美国人作为移民社会，总是让人惊叹他们如何将意大利裔美国人、犹太裔美国人等融入他们的国家叙事中。
I used to think that, the American Americans were very I mean, as an immigrant society, always used to marvel at the way in which they'd integrated, you know, Italian Americans, Jewish Americans, so on and so forth into their national story.
但如今很明显的是，这个国家叙事一直存在漏洞。
But, of course, what's very obvious now, is the national that national story has always had holes.
有些人会说，这是一个巨大而空洞的缺口。
Some would say a colossal gaping single gaping hole.
他们的历史争论甚至比我们的更加激烈，简直到了极致。
And that their debate about history is even more I mean, embittered to the sort of nth degree, compared with ours.
我不知道是否存在一种欧洲模式。
And I don't know whether there's a European model.
我不清楚自己对法国、荷兰等国的教育体系了解多少，是否有人真正成功建立了这样的教育模式——让大多数人能在一种国家叙事中感到基本满意。也许，根本就不可能存在一个让所有人都满意的单一叙事，这或许是注定的。
I don't know whether I don't know enough about the French education system or the Dutch or whatever, about whether anybody has ever actually cracked this of creating a model of an education system that basically most people are are broadly happy within a sort of national a single I mean, maybe that's the thing that you can't have a single narrative that pleases everybody by definition.
但德国人在二战问题上做到了，尽管他们对自己极具问题的殖民历史却未必如此。
But the Germans have with World War two, but not necessarily with their own very problematic colonialism, you know.
但我
But I
我觉得德国历史中的纳粹时期实在太邪恶了。
think I think German history was the Nazis was was so monstrous.
我们已经在播客里多次讨论过，希特勒如今几乎成了西方世界邪恶的化身。
And we've talked about this several times already on the podcast that Hitler has come to to serve the West basically as the embodiment of evil.
因此，他们能够围绕这一点构建整个教育体系。
So they can structure their entire education system around it.
但因为我提到了这个有趣的问题，我想说——
But I I I mean, I think that because you raised this kind of interesting question.
莎士比亚是不是英国人认为最伟大的作家？
Is Shakespeare the you know, the the British think Shakespeare is the greatest writer?
显然，部分原因是他是英国人，而我们说英语，所以我们对他更敏感。
Clearly, think that partly because he's English and we speak English, so we're more sensitive to it.
但更重要的是，由于英语是全球语言，我们把这种观念传播出去了，因此莎士比亚具有全球性的影响力，这让我们更容易维持这种看法。
But also because, clearly, the fact that English is the global language and we exported this idea, and therefore, Shakespeare has a global, resonance, it makes it an easier conceit for us to uphold.
但我认为，像这样坚持某些东西，确实能让很多人感到满足，尤其是那些依赖旅游业的人。
But I guess that, kinda holding on to things like that is something that makes lots of people quite happy, not least those who are responsible for the tourist industry.
是的。
Yeah.
从某种意义上说，推崇自己的文明、自己的国家、自己的遗产，难道不是人性的一部分吗？
There is a sense in which is it not human nature to big up your own civilization, your own country, your own heritage?
而或许英国真正引人注目的一点——正如大家所指出的——在于，英国的特殊性不在于它的沙文主义，而在于许多人对其历史所感到的羞愧。
And perhaps one of the things that's actually striking about Britain, which again, all were pointed out, is that that Britain perhaps is exceptional not for its jingoism, but for the sense of embarrassment that lots of people feel about its history.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为，这种羞愧感无疑一直是一种显著的传统。
I think that that's all the embarrassment has definitely been a prominent tradition.
但我觉得，近年来这种特殊主义在加速发展。
But I feel like the exceptionalism has accelerated in recent years.
比如在新冠疫情中，你就能看到这种对‘世界领先’的痴迷。
I mean, you've seen it with the coronavirus, you know, epidemic, this obsession with world being world beating.
我其实统计过，过去一年里政客们说某事是‘世界领先’的次数，大约有56次。
I actually listed the number of time politicians had said something was world beating in the last year, and it was something like 56 times.
你知道吗，疫苗、我们的检测与追踪系统，其实并不出色。
You know, the vaccines, our test and trace system, which wasn't world beating.
我们的科学，我们拥有世界上最好的科学。
Our science, we have the best science in the world.
我认为每个国家都会吹嘘自己，但我们却做到了极致。
I think every country bigs themselves up, but we take it to an extreme degree.
实际上，我们的政治家鲍里斯·约翰逊现在就经常这么做。
And actually, our politician, Boris Johnson, at the moment, does it all the time.
你知道的？
You know?
他还没当政治家的时候就已经这样了。
He was doing it before he became a politician, really.
你知道的？
You know?
这种非得要当第一的执念。
This obsession with being number one.
我认为这没有任何实际意义，因为正如我们从多米尼克·卡明斯那里了解到的，政府目前并没有表现出特别出色的行为。
I don't think it serves any useful purpose because, you know, as we've learned from Dominic Cummings, the government is not behaving in a particularly world beating way at the moment.
但正如汤姆所暗示的，这难道不正是普遍现象吗？比如你提到的新冠病毒，瑞典曾经在波罗的海地区拥有一个短暂的帝国，这个帝国在18世纪初的波尔塔瓦战役中被摧毁，之后却成了社会民主主义的典范。
But as Tom suggests, isn't that just I mean, all so for example, you mentioned the coronavirus, Sweden, which had a sort of short lived empire in the in the Baltic and its empire was destroyed at what, Paltava in the early eighteenth century, and then became this sort of social democratic poster child.
瑞典同样有着强烈的身份优越感，相信自己引领世界，并且在疫情期间至少有着一段颇具争议的经历。
Sweden also has a strong sense of exceptionalism, also has a belief that it led the world, and, you know, has had a, at the very least, to say, controversial, experience during the pandemic.
所以我不确定这是否是英国独有的现象，对吧？
So I don't know that that's necessarily uniquely British, is it?
我认为这并不是英国独有的，但我觉得我们比其他国家做得更过分。
I don't think it's uniquely British, but I think we do it more than anyone else.
目前印度人也在这么做。
The Indians do it as well at the moment.
而且，我们正在讨论的这些文化战争，实际上也体现在唐纳德·特朗普试图推行爱国主义教育的努力中。
And actually, these culture wars we're talking about are occurring with Donald Trump's attempt to have a patriotic education.
马尔代夫目前正在与印度历史学家合作，试图推动一种特定的印度教右翼历史观。
Maldives doing a load of stuff at the moment with Indian historians and trying to push a certain Hindu far right view of history.
匈牙利和波兰也在发生这种情况吗？
Is that happening in Hungary and in Poland?
波兰。
Poland.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这并不是我们独有的。
So it's not we're not unique.
但我想问，我们凭什么说莫迪在印度的做法是错的？
But I guess I guess, on on what basis would we say say what Modi is doing in India is wrong?
我的意思是，他为什么不能推动印度教民族主义呢？
I mean, why shouldn't he push a Hindu nationalist?
这正是我在
This is I've
注意到你播客中这种后现代倾向：你说，嗯，一切都是神话，没什么重要的。
noticed this kind of postmodern tendency in your podcast to just say, you know, not in everything's a myth, nothing matters.
但说真的，我简直不敢相信
Well, it's but but it's just that in a way I can't believe
是汤姆上有人正在分析我们的播客，并攻击你为后现代主义者。
it was somebody on Tom who's now analyzing our podcast and attacking you for being postmodernist.
是的。
Yeah.
后现代主义者。
Postmodernist.
这真的很后现代。
That's very postmodernist.
对。
Yes.
但你说得对。
But but but you're right.
你说得对。
You're right.
因为从某种意义上说，在我看来，莫迪无论有意识还是无意识，都比尼赫鲁，或者印度独立后那些精英世代，更彻底地否定了英国殖民主义的遗产——那些人基本上理所当然地接受了英国式的范式，即‘世俗’与所谓‘宗教’是截然分开的。
Because in a sense, it seems to me that that that actually Modi is, whether consciously or not, far more dramatically repudiating the legacy of British imperialism than say, Nehru did or the, you know, or the or the the the the generations of the Indian elites that followed independence, which basically took for granted an essentially kind of British paradigm of there being the secular and that this being distinct from things called religions.
而莫迪在某种意义上，确实在试图抹除这种区分。
And and that that Modi in a sense is really trying to erase that.
你知道，他对印度教特性可能的理解或许是错误的、神话化的，但这确实是对一种由英国、欧洲和美国帝国主义广泛传播的世界观的回应。
You know, he he his sense of what Hindutva might have been may well be kind of erroneous and mythical, but it is a reaction against a view of the world that basically was spread by British and European and American imperialism more generally.
在我看来，随着西方势力的退却，在印度、中国、中东和穆斯林国家，许多由欧洲帝国输出的文化和意识形态观念，都将面临质疑。
And it does seem to me that as that that kind of as Western power retreats, so in countries like India, in China, in The Middle East, in Muslim countries, A lot of things that were exported culturally and ideologically by European empires are are going to come under question.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，莫迪与大英帝国的关系非常有趣，因为他的政治传统并没有什么值得称道的历史叙事。
I mean, Modi's relationship to the British Empire is very interesting because his political tradition doesn't have a particularly good story to tell.
你知道，他们并没有参与反对英国帝国主义的斗争。
You know, they weren't part of the the fight against British Empire in particular.
所以，威廉·德普勒在印度撰写关于东印度公司的文章时，经常遭到攻击。
So I mean, Will Drample finds himself attacked quite often for his writing about the East India Company in India.
但确实，这种事情正在全球各地发生。
But, yeah, it's happening all around the world.
我还没回答你的问题，是吧？
I haven't answered your question, have I?
没有。
No.
没有。
No.
我认为不直接回答问题反而很好，我喜欢这种开放的对话方式。
That's I think not answering the questions is is I I well, I like the fact that it's an open conversation, actually.
因为我觉得，人们在讨论大英帝国、讨论帝国主义时，常常陷入一个误区，那就是期待能得出一个明确、简单且充满道德判断的答案。
Because, I mean, I think isn't this what parts of the trouble with when people have these arguments about British Empire, about empires generally, that they expect that you can come to a definitive, simple, and often morally charged answer.
在我看来，你的书的一大亮点就在于你真的如此开放。
And, I mean, one of the great things about your book, it seems to me, is that you actually are so open.
我很想知道，这是否部分因为你既是锡克教徒又是英国人，以这样的身份来审视这个问题；同时我也很感兴趣，你似乎带着很少的先入之见来面对这个议题，不知你是否明白我的意思。
And I wonder whether that's partly because you've come to it in a way, you you you have come to it as both a Sikh and and a Briton, but also it's quite I'm quite interested in that you seem to have come to it with so little baggage, if that makes sense.
我认为关键在于，我是以一个非历史学者的身份来接触这个话题的。
I think the key thing is I've come to it as a nonhistorian.
别介意，但我真的不怎么读历史书籍。
No offense to you guys, but I don't really read history books.
我读过《Dominion》和天哪。
I've read Dominion and Oh, god.
可能还读了另外两本书。
Maybe two other books.
实际上，我不会为了娱乐而读三本书。
Actually, I don't read three books for fun.
你只读了三本，你读了三本书，而且其中一本一定是《Toms》。
You you only read three You read three books, And one of them had to be Toms.
你读过多米尼克的书吗？
Have you read Dominic's books?
我没读过。
I haven't.
没有。
No.
没有。
No.
我看过他的电视节目。
I've seen his TV programs.
天啊。
God.
内容就在电视节目里。
It's in the TV programs.
谢谢。
Thank you.
我分不清电视节目。
I can't tell TV programs.
我接受了。
I'll take that.
耶稣。
Jesus.
但我的意思是，这其实是一个非常重要的观点，因为我想每个听这个播客的人可能都读过历史书籍。
But I mean, actually, that's a very important point because I guess everyone listening to the podcast is probably someone who reads history books.
但很多人并不读。
Lots of people don't.
我读小说。
I read novels.
我写小说。
I write probably write novels.
我想要人物、性爱纠葛和情节。
I want character, sexual intrigue, plot.
这个播客里有很多这样的内容。
There's a lot of that in this podcast.
很多。
A lot
性 intrigue。
of sexual intrigue.
性张力，那是另一回事。
Sexual tension, that's something else.
而历史不会给你这些。
And history doesn't give you that.
而且历史书籍假设你懂得很多。
And also history books assume you know a lot.
我的意思是，我读关于大英帝国的书时真的觉得很吃力，因为有些基础的东西我根本不知道。
I mean, I really struggle reading books on British Empire because there's basic things I didn't know.
而且它们太长了。
Also, they're way too long.
每本历史书都
Every history book is
太长了。
too long.
天啊。
God.
别往那儿说。
Don't go there.
别这么说。
Don't say this.
为什么都这么长？
Why are so long?
所以我的目标是，嗯，
And so my ambition Well,
你得把它放那儿。
you gotta put it there.
你得把它写进关于新神经主义的一章里，对吧？
You gotta put it in a chapter about the neuromantics, haven't you?
所以我的目标是写一本短书，是的。
So my ambition was to write a short book Yeah.
在英国，这确实是我的使命的一部分，因为那里根本没有什么东西。
On British that was really part of my mission because there's not there's not anything.
我认为你说得对，当然，大多数人对历史的认知既不是来自学校，也不是来自读书。
I think I think you're so right that, of course, what most most people's sense of history does not come from school, does not come from reading books.
它是一种模糊、混沌的感觉。
It's a kind of inchoate, vague sense.
也许这就是为什么关于大英帝国的争论如此激烈，因为要么就是奴隶制、种族主义、人被大炮轰飞，要么就是——你知道的，笑话是铁路，对吧？
And perhaps that's why the debate over the British Empire is so toxic because it's either slavery, racism, people blown out of cannons, or it's I mean, the joke is railways, isn't it?
是的。
And Yeah.
死亡头盔。
Death helmets.
民主，还有各种其他东西。
Democracy and, whatever.
实际上，它们在人们的脑海中完全可以与任何事实脱钩。
And, essentially, they they can exist in people's minds completely untethered to any facts whatsoever, really.
是的。
Yeah.
另外，我说的正好和多米尼克相反。
Also, the less you know I'm saying the opposite of Dominic here.
我认为，你对大英帝国历史了解得越少，你的观点就越强烈。
I think the less you know about British imperial history, the stronger your opinions.
我其实认为，这正是那种情况：如果人们真的了解更多，唯一可能的结论就是必须保持审慎。
I actually think it's one of those cases where actually people if did they if they did know more, the only possible conclusion is that you've gotta be nuanced.
是的。
Yeah.
这是唯一可能的结论。
It's it's the only possible conclusion.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得这太乐观了，因为通常那些对某件事了解很多的人，并不总是持有非常细致的观点。
I think that is very optimistic because I think often people who know I mean, it's not always the way that people who know a lot about something tend to have very nuanced views.
我的意思是，我们都熟悉那种阴谋论者，他们对肯尼迪遇刺事件的了解比你一生中可能学到的还要多，然后却提出一些极其晦涩复杂的理论，比如说是外星人干的之类的。
I mean, we're all familiar with the kind of conspiracy theorist who knows more about the Kennedy assassination than, you know, you could you could ever learn in a lifetime and then has some incredibly abstruse and elaborate theory about how it was done by aliens or something.
你知道的，所以你比我更乐观。
You know, that kind of so you're more optimistic than I am.
而且你更乐观，因为你经常谈到人们存在的帝国遗忘或历史遗忘问题。
And I I you're also more optimistic because you talk a lot about imperial amnesia or historical amnesia in people.
但我经常觉得，历史的一个奇怪之处在于，我们这些对历史感兴趣的人，总以为每个人都应该对历史感兴趣，应该比现在更多地思考历史。
But I I often think one of the weird things about history is those of us who are interested in history think everybody should be interested in history and should be thinking about it more than they are.
但实际上，很多人——这么说吧，这对我们这个播客的听众来说，简直有点大逆不道。
But actually, a lot of people I mean, this is kind of this is kind of real heresy to the listeners of this podcast.
但很多人根本不在乎历史，对吧？
But a lot of people just don't give a damn about history, do they?
是的。
No.
我觉得历史是随着年龄增长才会慢慢感兴趣的东西。
I I think it's history is something you get into as you get older.
我为此感到担忧，因为我觉得当你更关注过去而非未来时，你就老了。
I worry about it because I think the moment you're interested more in the past than the future, you're old.
完了。
It's over.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
我太老了。
I'm so old.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，按这个标准，我从四岁起就老了。
I mean, by that definition, I've been old since I was about four.
我以前特别痴迷恐龙。
Well, I was so into dinosaurs.
我的意思是，我完全
Mean, like, I completely
我那时候是的。
I was yeah.
我想，我一直更感兴趣于过去。
I've always been more interested in the past, I guess.
但然后，萨特南，如果你认为过于关注过去而不关注未来是坏事，那为什么你觉得学校里应该如此重视回顾历史呢？
But then, Sathnam, if you think that if you think it's bad to be interested so much in the past and not in the future, how come you think that we should devote so much attention to looking backwards in schools?
关键是，你不能一辈子都盯着过去不放。
Well, it's about how much you don't spend your entire life looking at the past.
但要想规划好未来的路，你得知道自己从哪里来，伙计。
But to work out your path in the future, you need to know where you're coming from, man.
好吧。
Okay.
怎么
How
天啊？
the hell?
我的意思是，英国脱欧就是一个很好的例子。
I mean, Brexit is a good example.
我们目前正试图重新定义与世界的关系。
We're trying to redefine our relationships with the world at the moment.
而我们常常不记得在帝国时期我们对他们做过什么，我认为他们对此感到震惊。
And often, we don't remember what we did to them during the Empire, and I think they find that shocking.
在我所有的研究中，我最喜欢的细节是托尼·布莱尔回忆录中提到他将香港交还给中国时的情景。
My my favorite fact in all my research was in Tony Blair's memoir when he was handing back Hong Kong to the Chinese.
他说，你知道吗？
He says, oh, you know what?
我对那段历史只有非常模糊的认识。
I was very only dimly aware of the history.
你可以打赌，中国人对那段历史可是清清楚楚。
It's like, you can bet the Chinese bloody know about the history.
是的。
Yeah.
你可以肯定，每个中国学生都学过鸦片战争。
You can bet every Chinese school kid is told about the Opium Wars.
你现在对托尼·布莱尔有点不客气了。
Now you've been disobliging about Tony Blair.
你肯定已经彻底得罪了汤姆·霍兰德。
You definitely have burned your boats with Tom Holland.
没有。
No.
完全不是。
Not at all.
完全不是。
Not at all.
因为我觉得，人们常说鲍里斯·约翰逊是最近几位首相中最具有帝国色彩的。
Because I would say I mean, you know, people say that Boris Johnson is the most imperial of of recent prime ministers.
但我认为托尼·布莱尔才是
I would say Tony Blair was
是的。
Yeah.
不知道。
Don't know.
路很远。
Long way.
我的意思是，我认为伊拉克战争正是某种根深蒂固的英国帝国主义态度的典型体现，这种态度将强硬武力的无情使用与一种道德优越感结合在一起——认为我们更懂什么是最好的。
I mean, I think the the Iraq war was absolutely the exemplification of a kind of deep rooted British imperial attitude that combines kind of the the the ruthless deployment of hard power with a kind of moralistic sense that that that we knew better.
当然。
And Absolutely.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，这种态度正是当年我们征服他人并自认为是在为他们好的根本原因。
You know, that that was basically the the the attitude that enabled us to conquer people and feel that it was for their good.
但汤姆，这些不正是其中的一些特点吗？
But isn't one of these these things, Tom, though?
我想对你们两位说，人们往往假设，当帝国权力的现实基础消失、殖民地获得独立之后，这种态度应该一夜之间改变。
Well, to both of you, I guess, that there's an assumption that, you know, when when when the reality, when the substance of imperial power has gone, when the colonies are are independent and so on, the attitude should change overnight.
我经常在回顾二十世纪五十年代和六十年代的书籍中读到这种说法，它们会说英国固守着自己的理想。
And I'll often read that in books looking back at the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties, and they'll say Britain clung on to its ideals.
但国家不会轻易改变，民族的想象力也无法瞬间转变。
But but nations don't change, and a national imagination can't change.
我的意思是，这正是为什么当你谈论种族和种族主义时，我读那本书时深受触动——因为我觉得，我在七十年代、八十年代从西米德兰兹当地图书馆读过很多书，以今天的标准来看，这些书毫无疑问是种族主义的，实际上无论以什么标准看都是如此。
I mean, that's why actually, we when you're talking about race and racism, I mean, I was really struck by that reading the the book because I thought, you know, I read a lot of books in sort of seventies, eighties in the seventies, eighties West Midlands from the local library or something that by today's standards would undoubtedly be considered well, by any standards, would be considered racist.
比如《大飞侠》之类的书。
I mean, biggles or something, let's say.
而且其中一个是
And one of
的内在
the In
嗯，恩诺利顿是个很好的例子，就是那三个黑娃娃。
Well, I mean, Enobleyton is a very good example, the three Gollywogs.
所以，除非你打算立即进行这种大规模的清洗，但没有任何国家真的这样做过。
So unless you're gonna have this sort of colossal purge immediately, which no country ever really does.
我是说，我们前几天还听伊恩·柯尔舍谈过去纳粹化，他说去纳粹化根本就是一场闹剧。
I mean, we had Ian Kirscher talking about denazification the other week, and that denazification was, in his words, a farce.
你知道，国家不会轻易抛弃……
You know, countries aren't gonna shed.
想象一个国家能瞬间脱胎换骨，几乎是不切实际的。
It's it's almost unrealistic to imagine that a country is going to sort of shed its skin instantly.
而放弃帝国理想的过程，恐怕需要几个世纪，你觉得呢？
And and the process of losing your imperial ideals probably is a question of centuries, do you think?
是的。
Yeah.
对我来说，这本书最令人震撼的一点就是，意识到尽管我自认为接受了卓越的教育——从文法学校到剑桥大学，但在剑桥读到最后一学期时，我才第一次读到一位非白人作者的作品。
I mean, that for me was the one of the most kind of destabilizing points of the book, was realizing that even though I supposedly had this brilliant education, you know, from a grammar school and at Cambridge University, I'd been colonized in the sense that, you know, I was in my final term at Cambridge before I read a single brown author.
我所有对印度的认知，都是通过西方人的视角获得的。
All my views of India were through the western eye, you know.
而且我还了解到，英国人最终征服许多印度王国并不是通过战场。
And also learning about how the British, how they ultimately conquered a lot of Indian kingdoms was not in the battlefield.
而是通过让王子们接受英国公立学校的教育。
It's by sending the princes through the English public school system.
这才是真正赢得人心的方式。
That's how you really won people.
你把他们塑造成地道的英国绅士。
You turn them into English gents.
而且我
And I
我知道你在说什么。
I I know what you're saying.
我觉得帝国的心理遗产非常有趣，直到我读了《贫女罗伊》和爱德华·萨义德的作品，我才真正理解这些。
I think the psychological legacies of Empire are fascinating, and I didn't really understand them until I read Poor Girl Roy, Edward Said, you know.
我一直在想，也许我们无法摆脱英国帝国主义遗产的原因之一，是因为帝国主义实际上是某种更深层事物的体现——那就是资本主义的兴起。
I I wonder whether, actually, one of the reasons why we we can't escape the legacy of British imperialism is because in fact, imperialism was an expression of something much deeper, which was the rise of of capitalism.
也许这就是为什么本质上发明了资本主义的荷兰人和英国人，似乎对自己的帝国遗产最为自信。
And perhaps that's the reason why the Dutch and the English who essentially invent capitalism are the people who seem most kind of self confident in their imperial legacy.
因为我认为，特别是在十九世纪这个爆炸性的增长时期，马克思在《共产党宣言》开篇对资产阶级成就的描述最能概括这一点。
Because I think that particularly what happens in the, I suppose, the nineteenth century, that explosive period of of of growth is best summed up by Marx in the in the in the opening pages of the communist manifesto, where he talks about the achievements of the bourgeoisie.
他谈到他们如何在短短一个世纪内彻底改变了世界。
He talks about how they have utterly transformed the world in the space of, you know, a century.
他们改变了全世界每个人的生活模式。
They have changed the patterns of of everybody around the world.
而基本上，我们至今仍生活在这个世界中。
And basically, we still live in that world.
你知道，大英帝国或许已经消亡，但英国所发展的资本主义仍然是驱动世界运转的力量。
You know, we the British Empire may be gone, but the capitalism that the British developed is still what makes the world go round.
这在某种程度上正是尼尔·弗格森的观点。
That to some extent is Neil Ferguson's argument.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，帝国塑造了现代世界。
I mean, that's Empire making the modern world.
我以为我身临其境了。
I was I thought I was there.
我本来以为自己是个马克思主义者，多米尼克。
I was thinking I was being a Marxist, you, Dominic.
但结果我发现我实际上是个
But it turns out I'm actually a
非常保守的人。
very conservative.
恰恰相反。
Quite the opposite.
我发现伦敦之所以现在略微脱离了英国经济，其中一个原因是它当初是为服务帝国而建立的，是为了支撑这个国际网络，而不是专门为英国服务，而这一点至今仍影响着我们。
I find it fascinating that one of the reasons why the city of London is slightly disconnected from the British economy now is because it it developed for Empire to serve this international network and not necessarily to serve Britain, you know, and that is something we still live with now.
但说到帝国的经济影响，书中这部分最让我大脑超载，因为经济学家们普遍认为，帝国并没有总体上让英国致富，因为维持这些殖民地和发动战争的成本实在太高了。
But when it comes to, you know, the economics of Empire, that was the part of the book that most made my brain want to fry because there's a consensus amongst economics economists that actually empire didn't enrich Britain overall because it cost so much to run these colonies to go to war.
总体来说，它并没有让我们致富。
That overall, it didn't enrich us.
当你开始正视这一点时，我不知道这对你理论的影响是什么，汤姆，但是
And when you start facing up to that, don't I know what that does to your theory, Tom, but
嗯，我认为这反而支持了你的观点，因为我读了你的描述后，被启发去这样思考。
Well, I think I think it backs it because I was prompted to think that by reading by by reading your account of that.
嗯。
Mhmm.
换句话说，是什么造就了帝国？
That that in a sense, you know, what what makes what makes empires?
我的意思是，是自信，是权力，是一种使命感，但也是让别人相信你的生活方式和世界观值得加入的能力。
I mean, it's self confidence, it's power, it's, a sense of mission, but it's also the ability to persuade people that your way of life and your way of seeing the world is something that you, you know, might be worth signing up to.
大英帝国具备了所有这些特质，但根本上，它是某种我们现在称之为现代性的体现。
And the British Empire featured all of those, but it featured it basically because it was it was an expression of, I guess, what we would now define as modernity.
一旦英国的帝国主义显得过时了——而它确实越来越过时了——那么它基本上就注定失败了。
And the moment the the British imperialism comes to seem old fashioned, which it increasingly does, then basically it's doomed.
这就是为什么美国版本的帝国主义要成功得多。
And that's why the American variant of imperialism is so much more successful.
这也解释了为什么中国版本的帝国主义如今对美国帝国主义构成了巨大挑战，因为它看起来很现代。
And it's also why the Chinese variant of imperialism now is such a challenge to American imperialism because it looks modern.
它看起来很精致。
It looks sophisticated.
这是一种人们可能真的愿意加入的模式。
It's kind of stuff that people might conceivably want to sign up to.
这正是尼尔·弗格森还没写过的书，你应该写这一本。
Now that is a book Niall Ferguson hasn't written, and you should do that one.
汤姆·霍兰德的文学生涯即将迎来一个意想不到的转折。
Tom Holland's literary career is about to take a very unexpected turn.
我想，如果我要写这个，我
I I I think if I'm gonna do that, I
我们最好现在就结束这个播客。
we'd better stop the podcast now.
我最好现在去
I better go off and
你还能带我们离开吗？在你没能带我们出去之后
Will you be capable of will you be capable of taking us out after your failure to take
进入休息时间？
us into the break?
我做不到。
I can't.
我仍然，我的大脑仍然
I still I still my brain still
变得混乱
gets fuddled
被我昨晚过量饮酒影响。
by my over over drinking last night.
我我
I I
我觉得我们确实很适合这样，我们已经讨论了很多问题，但其实并没有真正解决它们。
think it's quite fitting that we really we we've talked around a lot of issues, but we haven't really resolved them.
但事情本就该如此，因为我认为萨特南·桑格拉的《帝国之地》一书所传达的一个教训是，这些问题实际上非常棘手，甚至不可能解决。
But but that's how it should be because I think one of the lessons of Sathnam Sanghera's book Empireland is that actually some of these issues are very difficult, if not impossible, to resolve.
而真正有趣且富有成果的，是争论本身。
And then actually the interesting and fruitful thing is to is the argument.
应该多做一些播客，来延续这种讨论。
Is to well, have lots of podcasts on.
或者我们该说，是对话，而不是争论。
Or the conversation, should we say, rather than the argument.
我认为，关于帝国的讨论之所以存在问题，是因为它往往变成了一场争论，而实际上它应该是一场对话。
I think actually that's one of the problems with the Empire and the discussion of it is that it tends to be an argument where it should actually be a conversation.
对于那些还没读过萨特南这本书的人，一个了不起的地方在于，书中提供了大量空间让你去质疑、去参与，而且它的写作风格非常克制、细腻，读起来非常愉快。
One of the great things about Sathnam's book, for those of you who haven't read it, is that there's lots of room to to disagree with it, to engage with it, but it's it's it's written in a very measured and nuanced way that is a pleasure to read.
而且这本书常常非常幽默。
And it's very funny often.
在一本著作中如此令人惊讶。
And such a surprising in a book.
他来自伍尔弗汉普顿，那里有很多未被充分提及的细节，而且他是个狼队球迷，就像所有了不起的人一样——埃尔加、桑赫拉、桑德布鲁克，这是我们西米德兰兹地区公认的三位一体。
And then he's from Woolfampton, which is Detailing a lot of not been mentioned enough and is a wolves fan, like all great people, are Elgar, Sanghera, Sandbrook, the holy trinity, as we are known in West Midlands.
汤姆，你对这个有什么想说的吗？还是没什么？
And Tom, do you wanna have anything to say on this or nothing?
我对此真的没什么可补充的。
I've got absolutely nothing to add to that.
太棒了。
Brilliant.
好的。
Okay.
萨特纳姆，非常感谢你做客这个播客。
Sathnam, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
谢谢。
Thank you.
这是一份荣幸。
It's been an honor.
我们下次再见。
And we'll see you all next time.
谢谢。
Thank you.
感谢收听《余史》。
Thanks for listening to the rest is history.
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网址是 restishistorypod.com。
That's restishistorypod.com.
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