69. 英格兰 对 乌克兰

他让士兵们排成密集的队形，所以他们的纵深太深了。

He he lines them up in so they're kind of they're too deep.

这就是‘细细的红线’这个富有象征意义的短语。

And this is the thin red line evocative phrase.

是的。

Yeah.

这意味着防御和坚守。

So that implies defense holding out.

所以我想加雷斯·索斯盖特就是那种‘细细的红线’式的人物。

So I guess Gareth Southgate is a a kind of thin red line man

他是的。

He is.

他更倾向于那样。

He's a rather than that.

他是的。

He is.

这里有我的枪，也有你的枪，大人。

There are my there are your guns, my lord.

进攻。

Attack.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

让我们来谈谈轻骑兵冲锋，是的。

Let's so the so the Charge the Light Brigade Yeah.

详细讲讲这个，因为这是一个如此

Just talk us through that because it's such

精彩的故事。

a great story.

轻骑兵冲锋完全陷入混乱。

So the Charge of the Light Brigade's in utter shambles.

汤姆，我这次没做准备，所以只是尽力回忆一下。

Now I haven't come prepared for this, Tom, so I'm just trying to remember it.

俄国人的大炮在山谷顶端，对吧？

The Russians' guns are at the top of a valley, aren't they?

在山谷的底部。

And At

我认为是在山谷的底部。

the bottom of a valley, I think.

在山谷的底部。

At the bottom of the valley.

但无论如何，是在山谷的一侧。

But at one side of the valley, anyway.

它们位于山谷的某一端。

They're at some end of the valley.

所以这是巴拉克拉瓦帽，你知道的，那种鼓鼓的面罩。

So this is a balaclava, and, you know, the, the nice swollen mask.

据我回忆，当时俄国人正在撤退，指挥官说，去把大炮夺过来，趁他们还没撤走。

And now as I remember, the Russians are withdrawing, and the the commander says, you know, go and basically get the guns before they withdraw.

但在将命令传达给轻骑兵旅的过程中，不知怎么的，他们指向了错误的大炮。

And but he somehow, in the course of this being relayed to the Light Brigade, they end up pointing at the wrong guns.

对吧？

That's right, isn't it?

这才是他们真正的火炮。

This is their real guns.

指挥链上有三位勋爵，全都是无能之辈。

The chain of command, there are three lords, all of whom are useless.

是的。

Yeah.

所以有拉格伦勋爵

So there's lord Raglan

没错。

That's right.

谁参加过拿破仑战争，他一直下令去进攻法国人。

Who fought in the Napoleonic Wars, and he's the one who keeps saying go and attack the French.

就好像法国人是他的盟友一样。

It's like the fact that the French are his allies.

他大约九十岁了，非常衰弱。

And he's about kind of 90, incredibly doddery.

是的。

Yeah.

然后是卢肯勋爵，他是后来那位卢肯勋爵的祖先，他并不

Then there's lord Lucan, ancestor of the lord Lucan who will He doesn't

他并没有消失。

he doesn't disappear.

他没有

He doesn't

他并没有消失。

he doesn't disappear.

我认为他是卡迪根勋爵的姻亲。

And he, I think, is the brother-in-law of Lord Cardigan.

卡迪根勋爵是个耻辱，他是那个

Now Lord Cardigan is a shame is it who

指挥轻骑兵旅，但他们彼此憎恨。

commands Light Brigade, but they detest each other.

是的。

Yes.

然后还有一个叫诺兰的人。

And then this guy called Nolan.

他是中间人，对吧？

He's the intermediary, isn't he?

传递消息的人。

Carries the message.

是的。

Yeah.

因为它们之间谁也不说话，

And because none of them are speaking to each other,

它它

it it

这导致沟通非常不畅。

it it doesn't it doesn't provide for great communication.

所以，基本上，出现了一种混乱局面。

And so, basically, there's there's a kind of there's a a snarl up.

卡迪根问：‘你指的是哪些炮？’

Cardigan says, which guns do you mean?

诺兰指了指，然后我想他被击中了，死了，

Nolan gestures, and then I think gets shot, gets killed, kind of

他先说话的，不是吗？

He speaks firstly, doesn't he?

他不是说‘那些就是你的炮，勋爵’之类的话吗？

Doesn't he say, there are your guns, my lord, or something.

是的。

Yes.

去把它们拿过来吧，或者随便怎样。

Go and get them or whatever.

漫无目的地指向远方。

Pointing vaguely into the distance.

战争中有一条铁律：如果你有骑兵，尤其是轻骑兵，绝不能直接冲锋对抗火炮。

And the the one rule of of of war is that if you have cavalry, particularly light cavalry, you don't use it to charge artillery head on.

对。

Yeah.

所以卡迪根觉得这太疯狂了。

So Cardigan thinks this is mad.

但他收到了命令，而且他本人极度傲慢

But because he's been given the order and because he is he's just insanely arrogant

且固执己见。

and stiff necked.

他只是一个维多利亚时代的英国将军。

He's just a Victorian British general.

对吧？

Right?

他就照自己做的那样去做。

He just goes what he does.

当然，他是开襟羊毛衫的发明者。

Inventor of the cardigan, of course.

他是开襟羊毛衫的发明者。

He's the inventor of the cardigan.

我觉得是的。

I think so.

我觉得这就是为什么，你知道的，他披在肩上，对吧？

I think that's why, you know, he wears over his shoulder, doesn't he?

就像那种外套。

Like the kind of jacket.

我不知道这件事。

I didn't know that.

我觉得是这样。

I think so.

我觉得是这样。

I think so.

真棒的事实。

Great fact.

于是他们冲了下去。

And so they they charge down.

他们被彻底击溃，幸存者则后撤。

They get absolutely devastated, and then the survivors kind of drop back.

但你知道吗？

But you know what?

现在对此有一种修正主义的历史观点。

There's now a revisionist history of this.

就像所有灾难性的英国战役一样，比如索姆河战役或帕斯尚尔战役之类的，现在有一些军事历史学家实际上说，嗯，我觉得其实呢

As with all disastrous British battles, like, you know, the Somme or Passchendaele or whatever, there are military historians now who actually who say, well, I actually, you know

还不错吧？

It's quite good, was it?

是的。

Yeah.

我们达成了想要的结果之类的。

We got the results we wanted or whatever.

我的意思是，我不觉得。

I mean, I don't Yeah.

这真是典型的足球经理风格。

That's very football manager.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧。

Alright.

我们以七比零输了，但是

We lost seven nil, but

但是，你知道，我们吸取了教训。

but, you know We've learned lessons.

我们周二再战。

We go again on Tuesday.

改进策略。

Revise the platform.

是的。

Yeah.

还有很多可以改进的地方。

There's a lot to build on.

上一场比赛，但我的意思是，这也

The last game But but, I mean, it's also

很残酷，我想这可能是足球运动继承下来的东西。

very mean, I I guess this is this is something that football sport perhaps has inherited.

我们喜欢那种血腥的灾难场面。

We love a kind of a bloody disaster.

当然，我们喜欢。

Of course, we do.

是的。

Yeah.

然后，这不正是英国人眼中的悲壮失败吗？

Then we Isn't that a heroic failure in the British?

是的。

Yeah.

所以人们激动得热泪盈眶，正是如此。

So get the gas are bursting into tears Exactly.

当我们被淘汰时。

As we get knocked out.

是的。

Yeah.

意思是，人们啊，我的意思是，

Mean, people I mean,

它在……中延续着。

it lives on in the in

那正是英国式的，正因为如此，像我们最近几场比赛那样平稳顺利地推进比赛，反而显得有点不像英国风格。

the That's British why it slightly unenglish to be making sort of unruffled progress through a tournament as we have been doing for the last few games.

因此，从某种意义上说，丁尼生关于轻骑兵冲锋的诗完全确立了这种模式。

And so in a sense, Tennyson's poem on the charge of the Light Brigade kind of absolutely establishes the template for that.

我的意思是，这其中有一种类似足球孩童般的特质。

I mean, there's there is a a kind of football child quality to it.

我认为，后殖民历史学家虽然不是我通常会非常钦佩地引用的人，但他们可能会说，很多这种行为是出于内疚或负罪感。

Well, I think postcolonial historians are sort of not people I normally quote with enormous overwhelming admiration, but they would say a lot of this stuff is motivated by guilt, they think, or sort of bad conscience.

英国人制造了一种殉道崇拜，你知道的，哦，我们人数这么少。

The the sort of British create this cult of martyrdom, you know, and, oh, we're so outnumbered.

我们是弱者，我们表现得英勇无比，但最终被击败，以此来缓解一个事实：实际上，对方只是用机枪扫射他们。

We're the underdogs, we performed heroically and we're beaten to sort of, you know, to to sort of cope with the fact that, actually, they're just mowing people down with gatling guns.

但这次不同，是因为我们糟糕透顶。

Except on this occasion, it's because we're grotesquely incompetent.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，这其实是另一回事。

And I think, actually, this is the other thing.

有很多球迷的不当行为。

So there's a lot of fan misbehavior.

对管理层的不满很多，这非常足球，而且还有球迷的不当行为。

There's a lot of discontent with the management, which is very football, and there's fan misbehavior.

所以在英国，这场战争相当不受欢迎，尤其是对保守党及其选民而言，到处都是人们投掷物品的场景。

So in England, the war is quite unpopular with, I think, particularly with the Tories and with Tory voters, and there's all these scenes where people are pelting.

曾经发生过雪球骚乱，球迷们互相投掷雪球。

There there were snowball riots where the where the fans, as it were, are pelting.

我认为他们并不是在投掷蛋白质，比如征兵官员之类的东西。

I don't I think they were protein pelting like recruiting officers or something.

他们投的是雪球。

They were snowballs.

随后政府垮台了，阿伯丁伯爵——当时的首相——下台，帕尔默斯顿接任。

And the government fall well, the Earl of Aberdeen, who was the prime minister, falls, and then Palmerston takes over.

当然，帕尔默斯顿非常热衷于攻击外国人。

Of course, Palmerston's a great man for attacking foreigners.

是的。

Yeah.

派遣炮艇。

Sending gunboats.

克里米亚战争的遗留影响至今仍存在于许多城镇中。

There are there there are legacies of the Crimean War in lots of towns still.

当我们最终在战争结束时攻占了塞瓦斯托波尔。

And these these when we finally, at the end of the war, we captured Sevastopol.

有大量的旧俄罗斯火炮和大炮，它们都被运回了英国，并送往全国各地。

There's loads of old Russian guns, cannons, and they were all brought home, and they were sent all around the country.

我的意思是，像哈特尔浦这样的地方就有一些。

I mean, there are some in the sense like Hartlepool.

每个城镇都想要一门，尤其是那些大力支持战争的城镇。

Every town wanted one, particularly towns that had support strongly supported the war.

所以阿宾登有一门，加拿大则有很多门。

So there's one in Abingdon, and there's there's loads in Canada.

实际上，加拿大至今还保留着大约20门塞瓦斯托波尔大炮，当时人们还欢呼雀跃。

Actually, there's about 20 still in Canada, these Sebastopol guns, which was sort of, you know, hurrah hurrah.

我们俘获了这些旧俄罗斯大炮。

We've captured these old Russian cannons.

然后其中一些在二战期间被熔化，用来制造喷火战斗机之类的武器。

And then some of them are melted down in the second world war to, you know, build spitfires or something.

所以，克里米亚战争的某些奇特遗物，遍布英格兰各个小镇的市场。

So there were sort of weird, you know, relics of the Crimean War in sort of market towns all over England.

哦，我们正在

Oh, we're

刚收到制片人的消息。

just getting a message from our producer.

维多利亚十字勋章仍然是用熔化的塞瓦斯托波尔大炮制成的。

Victoria Cross medals are still made out of melted dan Sebastopol guns.

我认为这存在争议。

That is controversial, I believe.

我觉得人们已经分析过维多利亚十字勋章，想知道它们是否

I I think the people have analyzed Victoria Cross medals and said, are they

真的，多米尼克，别再破坏了，别再

really Dominic, just stop ruining stop

破坏我们的事实了。

ruining our facts.

是的。

Yeah.

别再拿你那些历史真相来烦我了。

Stop stop stop it with your with your with your historical truths.

嗯，当然，另一个遗产是护理事业。

Well, I mean and also, of course, the other legacy is nursing.

弗洛伦斯·南丁格尔和玛丽·塞歇尔。

Florence Nightingale and Mary Seycholl

对。

Yes.

某种程度上，她已经成为一种象征，甚至取代了弗洛伦斯·南丁格尔，尽管她根本不是护士。

Who in a way has become a kind of icon to the extent that she's replaced Florence Nightingale, even though she wasn't a nurse.

我觉得她 basically 就是开了一家旅馆。

I think she I think she basically just ran a hotel.

现在英国的每个小学生都在学习玛丽·塞歇尔的故事，对吧？

Every schoolchild in Britain now learns about Mary Seycholl, don't they?

意思是，这不正是那种通常被说成‘她被从历史中抹去，现在没人再读到她’的情况吗？

Mean, isn't that the sort of an but usually, is prefaced with the words she's written out of history and nobody reads about her now.

我觉得，这很好地体现了我们如何持续地将人物神话化。

Well, I think I think it's kind of it's it's an interesting example of the way in which we continue to mythologize people.

是的。

Yeah.

甚至在二十一世纪的英国帝国历史中也是如此。

From British imperial history even in the even in the twenty first century.

对。

Yes.

玛丽·西博尔德完全是一个被神话化的人物，就像卡林顿伯爵那样。

Mary Mary Seacole is an entirely mythologized person in exactly the way that, I guess, the earl of Cardington was.

卡林顿？

Cardington?

是的。

Yeah.

卡迪根。

Cardigan.

是的。

Yeah.

汤姆，你知道吗？我原本以为这个播客关于英乌关系的讨论大概十分钟就够了， partly 因为我们之前其实没怎么深入聊过英乌关系。

Tom, you know, I thought this podcast would take about ten minutes on Anglo Ukrainian relations, and partly because we haven't really talked massively about Anglo Ukrainian relations.

我们现在已经到了上半场的结尾。

We've we've now got to the end of the first half.

好吧，这将会是一场上下半场分明的比赛。

Well, there are gonna be it is going to be a game of two halves.

要不我读一段丁尼生的诗来结束吧？

Shall I end it by reading a chunk of Tennyson?

我觉得这简直太棒了。

I think that would be absolutely brilliant.

那我们就以丁尼生的诗收尾吧，希望这不会预示着罗马将发生什么。

So we'll go out on Tennyson, and you can imagine let's hope that this doesn't prefigure what happens in Rome.

向前，轻骑兵队，那里没有一个人退缩，尽管士兵们知道有人犯了错误。

Forward the Light Brigade was there a man dismayed, not though the soldier knew someone had blundered.

他们无需回应。

Theirs not to make reply.

他们无需质疑原因。

Theirs not to reason why.

他们唯有行动，直至牺牲。

Theirs but to do and die.

六百人冲入死亡之谷。

Into the valley of death rode the 600.

本集由菲利奥社赞助播出，这里是读书俱乐部的塔比和多米尼克，Goalhanger 最新的节目。

This episode is brought to you by The Folio Society, and it's Tabby and Dominic here from The Book Club, Goalhanger's latest show.

塔比，你知道，有些书你只读一遍，但还有一些书你特别愿意反复重读。

Now, Tabby, as you know, there are some books that you read once, but there are others you especially return to again and again.

而那些第二种书，它们确实值得永存，不是吗？

And those second kind of books, they really deserve to last, don't they?

这就是Folio Society所做的。

That's what the Folio Society does.

他们是一家总部位于伦敦的独立员工所有出版社。

They are an independent employee owned publisher based in London.

每本书都配有特别委托创作的精美插图和特别撰写的导读，帮助读者理解故事的背景。

Every book is produced with specially commissioned beautiful artwork and specially commissioned introduction that puts the story in its context.

Folio Society出版我们热爱的书籍，从勃朗特到狄更斯，从玛格丽特·阿特伍德到汤姆·霍兰德。

Folio Society publishes the books we love, from Bronte to Dickens, from Margaret Atwood to Tom Holland.

这些书籍本身就能让人感受到艺术品的气质。

The books can feel like works of art in their own right.

它们以文本为核心，打造那些经久不衰的故事和永恒的书籍。

They're built around the text, the stories that last in books that are made to last.

如果一个故事重要，就该好好保存它。

If a story matters, keep it properly.

前往 foliosociety.com/thebookclub 查找。

Find it at foliosociety.com/thebookclub.

那是 foliosociety.com/thebookclub。

That's foliosociety.com/thebookclub.

你好。

Hello.

欢迎回到《历史的余音》特别节目，本期主题为英乌关系。

Welcome back to a rest is history special on Anglo Ukrainian relations.

正如多米尼克在广告前所说，我原本以为我们很难在这上面撑满二十分钟。

As Dominic said before the break, I I thought we might struggle to fill out twenty minutes on this.

但事实上，我已经把我所知道的都说完了。

But we've I I basically, I've said everything that I know.

我现在再也没有什么可补充的了。

I now have nothing more to add.

我从未听过多米尼克如此自信地说他还有二十分钟的内容。

I never Dominic very confidently saying he's got stuff for another twenty minutes worth.

那就说吧。

So give it.

我从来没想过会听到你说出这些话，汤姆。

I never ever thought I would hear you say those words, Tom.

你还好吗？

Are you alright?

你已经把你所知道的都说完了。

You've said everything you know.

我不相信我

I don't believe I

关于英乌关系，我再也不知道别的了。

don't know anything else about Anglo Ukrainian relations.

你不知道胡索夫卡吗？

You don't know about Husovka?

不知道。

No.

胡索夫卡是个特别精彩的故事。

Husovka is such a great story.

好的。

Okay.

所以

So

他和顿巴斯有什么关系吗？

Does he have anything to do with the Donbas?

有。

Yes.

而且他不是

And he's not a

不是一个人。

not a person.

他是一个地方。

He's a place.

好的。

Okay.

嗯，这说明我懂的真少。

Well, that shows how much I know.

好的。

Okay.

所以关于顿巴斯，我以前做过一个学校地理项目。

So the Donbas, I did a a school geography project on it.

哇。

Wow.

关于顿涅茨克以及煤炭和铁矿，那是欧洲最工业化的地区之一。

On Donetsk and the the and the and the sort of coal and iron, the one of the most industrial areas of Europe.

而现在，当然，它正处于

And now, of course, at the center of

七十年代的乌克兰？

this Ukraine in the seventies?

这场战争，也就是在顿涅茨克和卢甘斯克发生的俄乌之间非正式的战争。

This war, the Russian Ukrainian kind of undeclared war that going on in Donetsk and Luhansk.

所以我做过关于芝加哥和顿巴斯的地理项目。

So I I did geography projects on Chicago and on the Donbas.

我从来没去过这两个地方，但我感觉我了解它们。

I've never been to either, but I I I feel I know them.

你知道我做过什么吗？

Do know what I did?

那就是我的地理项目。

That was my geography project.

我做过一个露天采矿的项目。

I did one open cast mining.

当然，你做了。

Of course, you did.

太让人沮丧了。

So depressing.

我的意思是，我本该做芝加哥的，为什么我没做呢？

I mean, I should have done why didn't I get to do Chicago?

这太有趣了。

It's so enjoyable.

我仍然能画出机场延伸到湖面的地图。

I can still draw the the map of the airport going out into the lake.

Anyway，抱歉。

Anyway, sorry.

我们一直在等关于露天采矿的播客，但我觉得它不会发生了。

We're we're So I keep waiting for the podcast on opencast mining, but I don't think it's gonna it will happen.

好吧。

Alright.

采矿让我们想到了顿巴斯。

So mining brings us to the Donbas.

人们还记得，2010年代初乌克兰发生了广场革命，俄罗斯吞并了克里米亚，随后东部爆发了战斗。

So people remember they had the Euro Maidan revolution in Ukraine at the beginning of the twenty tens, and the Russians annexed Crimea, and then there was this fighting in the East.

在所有这些战斗期间，网上出现了一条消息，说是时候让顿巴斯——这场冲突的中心城市——重新回归英国了。

And during all this fighting, a thing went up on the Internet, and it said it's time for Donetsk, the city at the center of this to be re you know, the solution is for it to be reunited with The United Kingdom.

你知道，它既不该属于俄罗斯，也不该属于乌克兰，而应该属于英国。

You know, it should be neither Russian nor Ukrainian, but British.

你可能会觉得这很荒谬，但顿涅茨克确实起源于英国人的建设。

And you might think that's ridiculous, but Donetsk did begin as a British foundation.

19世纪60年代末，俄罗斯帝国正在迅速发展，他们需要引进人才来实现工业化。

So '18 late eighteen sixties, the Russian empire is very rapidly developing, and, they they need to bring in talent to basically industrialize it.

于是他们与一家名为米尔沃尔钢铁与造船公司的企业达成了协议。

And they they do a deal with a company called the Millwall Ironworks and Shipbuilding Company.

你几乎找不到一家更英国化的公司了。

So you could hardly find a more English company.

米尔沃尔钢铁公司派来了一位名叫约翰·休斯的人，可惜的是，对这个播客来说，他是威尔士人。

And the Millwall Ironworks send over a man called John Hughes, who, unfortunately, for this podcast is Welsh.

是的。

So yeah.

但他来自米尔沃尔，汤姆。

But he's come from it's come from Millwall, Tom.

他来自米尔沃尔公司。

He's come from a Millwall company.

所以我认为有

So I think has

我相信我们的威尔士听众会

I'm sure our Welsh listeners They

会喜欢这个。

will love this.

他们会喜欢这个。

They love this.

把威尔士和英格兰捆绑在一起。

Bundling Wales into England.

我没有把威尔士和英格兰捆绑在一起。

I'm not bundling Wales into England.

我是在把威尔士提升到高于英格兰的位置。

I'm I'm elevating Wales above England.

我想这就是我正在做的

I think that's what I'm

在做。

doing.

好的。

Okay.

所以约翰·休斯过去了。

So John Hughes goes over.

他来自默瑟·蒂德维尔。

He's from Murtha Tidville.

他前往现在属于乌克兰的地方，并选定了地点。

He goes down to what's now Ukraine, and he picks his spot.

他说，这个地方有铁、煤之类的资源。

And he says, this is the place, iron and and coal and stuff.

他开始引进人才，因为俄罗斯人缺乏熟练的工程师等，于是他带来了数百名主要来自威尔士的熟练工人、工程师和矿工，来建立他的工厂。

And he starts bringing over the Russians don't have the skilled engineers and stuff, so he brings over hundreds of largely Welsh skilled, laborers and engineers and miners and so on to set up his factories.

他们确实这么做了。

And they do.

到世纪末，那里已经居住着大约三万人。

And by the end of the century, there's about 30,000 people living there.

其中许多人是威尔士人或英国人。

A lot of them Welsh or English.

那里有一座圣公会教堂。

There's an Anglican church.

还有一所英语学校。

There are there's an there's an English speaking school.

这就是后来成为顿涅茨克的地方。

So and this is what's gonna become Donetsk.

当时，它被称为休斯ovka。

And at the time, it's called Hughes Ovka.

因此，它以约翰·休斯的名字命名。

So it's named after John Hughes.

这基本上是一个由英国人、乌克兰人和俄罗斯人混居的社区，位于乌克兰，已成为中欧和东欧重要的工业中心之一。

And it's basically a sort of British and mixed British, Ukrainian, and Russian community in Ukraine, and it's one of the sort of big industrial becoming one of the already one of the big industrial powerhouses of Central And Eastern Europe.

而这种情况一直持续到俄国革命，当时所有的英国人都被驱逐了。

And, basically, it continues as that until the Russian revolution when all the Brits are kicked out.

所以，这真是非同寻常。

So and and it's extraordinary.

有些人从一无所有到暴富，又重回一无所有。

Some of them have gone from rags to riches to rags again.

他们最初来自南威尔士，一无所有。

So they've come from, you know, nothing in South Wales.

他们一步步奋斗上来。

They've worked their way up.

他们前往俄罗斯帝国，赚了很多钱，过着有仆人伺候的生活。

They go to, they've gone out to the Russian empire, they've made a lot of money, and they live in, you know, with servants and things.

然后俄国人把他们赶走，他们又空手回到威尔士。

And then the Russians kick them out, and they come back to Wales with nothing.

这真是一个非凡的故事。

So that's an extraordinary story.

当然，它并不会一直叫胡斯卡。

And, of course, the it it doesn't stay as Husavka.

它被改名为斯塔利诺。

It is renamed Starlino.

然后最终变成了顿涅茨克。

And then ends up and then ends up becoming Donetsk.

有没有人提议改回原名？

Is there any move to rename it?

把它恢复成原来的名字？

Give it back its original name?

我不这么认为。

I don't think so.

我认为，基本上，俄罗斯人把这里变成了俄罗斯的君士坦丁堡。

I think, basically, the Russians Constantinople, Russia.

是的

Yeah.

俄罗斯人和乌克兰人正在为这个地区激烈争夺

The Russians and the Ukrainians are fighting very sort of fiercely over

所以让它重新成为英国的，我的意思是，让它重新成为英国的，这会是一种解决办法，不是吗？

So so making it British again I mean, making it British again would be a kind of answer, wouldn't it?

会的

Would.

你可以给它分配一名议员

You could give it an MP.

它或许可以成为一个郡

It could be a county, I suppose.

太好了

Great.

不是吗？

Wouldn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

顿巴斯。

The Donbas.

他们可能拥有一些非常出色的足球运动员，那样的话他们就可以为英格兰队效力了。

And they probably have got some great footballers, then they could play for England.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，顿涅茨克矿工队经常参加欧冠联赛。

I mean, Shakhtar Donetsk was often in the Champions League.

他们引进了很多巴西球员。

They import a lot of Brazilian players.

我认为他们并不依赖本地人才，他们的球衣是很有吸引力的橙色款式。

I don't think they relied on local talent, They're a very fetching kind of orange y strip.

我认为他们在英超踢得非常好。

I think they do wear very well in the Premier League.

我很想看到他们出现在英超联赛中。

I'd like to see them in the Premier League.

但还有一种非常奇怪的威尔士关联。

But there's also another sort of quite weird Welsh connection.

乌克兰有着极其悲惨的二十世纪历史。

So Ukraine has this absolutely ghastly twentieth century history.

我的意思是，前几天我读到一些内容，当时我在思考这个问题，有一位美国学者基本上说，世界上没有任何一个国家像乌克兰那样，在第一次世界大战后经历了如此混乱和悲惨的时期。

I mean, read something the other day when I was thinking about this that some American scholar who's basically said, there is no example anywhere in the world of a country that has sort of suffered more chaotic and miserable time than Ukraine after the first World War.

第一次世界大战后，我认为曾一度有七支不同的军队在争夺对乌克兰的控制权。

So after the first World War, I think there were, at one point, there were seven different armies fighting for control of Ukraine.

所以有白俄军队。

So there's White Russians.

还有布尔什维克。

There's the Bolsheviks.

还有一些无政府主义者。

There's some anarchists.

还有波兰人。

There's the Poles.

我认为，还有两个不同的乌克兰民族主义团体。

There's, I think, two different groups of Ukrainian nationalists.

所以这简直是一场噩梦，而且这种状况持续下去，因为乌克兰在20世纪30年代初经历了大饥荒，然后……

So it's just an absolute nightmare, and that can continues, because Ukraine has the famine in the early nineteen thirties, and then

显然是在斯大林统治下。

obviously under Stalin.

是的。

Yeah.

斯大林之后，纳粹发动了进攻。

The Stalin, then the Nazis attack.

其中一些人协助了纳粹。

Some of them help the Nazis.

有些人则反抗纳粹。

Some of them fight against the Nazis.

红军发起反攻。

The Red Army counterattacks.

然后波兰方面又发生了一些其他事情。

Then there's a kind of more stuff with the Poles going on.

这简直是一场彻底的、彻底的、彻底的噩梦。

It's just an utter, utter, utter nightmare.

历史学家蒂莫西·斯奈德写过一本叫《血色大地》的书，而乌克兰正是这场灾难的中心。

And the historian Timothy Snyder has this book Bloodlands, and Ukraine is absolutely the center of this.

这片土地上鲜血淋漓，人们被直接枪杀。

This sort of blood literally literally blood soaked territory where people are being thrown into Shots.

还有大规模的墓地等等这些事情。

Mass graves and all that stuff.

但在这一切之中，乌克兰身份认同中一个重大的事件就是霍洛多莫尔，即二十世纪三十年代初的大饥荒。

But amid all this, one of the massive events in Ukrainian identity is the Holodmoor, the famine of the early nineteen thirties.

而揭露这一事件的是一位英国记者，名叫加雷斯·琼斯，另一位威尔士人。

And it's another it's a British journalist who exposes this, a man called Gareth Jones, another Welshman.

有一部

There's a

关于他的电影，不是吗？

film about him, wasn't there?

就是最近上映的。

Just recently.

我认为，普遍认为这部电影拍得相当差。

I think by common consent of quite a poor film, actually.

詹姆斯·诺顿饰演了他。

James Norton played him.

他来自南威尔士的巴里。

He's, you know, he's from Barrie in in South Wales.

他为《泰晤士报》工作。

He works for The Times.

他前往俄罗斯和乌克兰。

He goes to Russia and to Ukraine.

现在有一个惊人的联系。

Now here's an amazing, connection.

他的母亲曾作为约翰·休斯儿子的家庭教师在胡索夫卡工作过。

His mother had worked in Husovka as the tutor of John Hughes's son.

唯有连接。

Only connect.

这不是很奇怪吗？

Isn't that bizarre?

真是太奇怪了。

What a It's bizarre.

然后他对俄罗斯并没有太大的兴趣。

And by and then he doesn't have a massive interest in Russia.

他研究法语，加雷斯·琼斯，我想是在剑桥，之后进入《泰晤士报》工作，最终被派回他母亲曾担任家庭教师的地方。

He studies French, Gareth Jones, I think, at Cambridge, and then goes to work for The Times and ends up being sent back to this place where his mother had worked as a tutor.

但纯粹是巧合吗？

But purely coincidentally?

显然是巧合。

Clearly coincidentally.

他发现饥荒正在发生，并为《泰晤士报》撰写了相关报道。

And he discovers that the famine is happening, and he writes reports about it in The Times.

然后可能是二十世纪最著名的新闻丑闻之一：一个名叫沃尔特·杜兰蒂的人，为《纽约时报》工作，他虽生于英国，但后来成了美国人。

And then probably the most one of the most famous journalistic scandals of the twentieth century, a man called Walter Durante, who worked for the New York Times, who was also British born, but had become American.

杜兰蒂与斯大林关系密切。

Durante is kinda in with Stalin.

他在《纽约时报》上发表了令人震惊的报道，声称加雷斯·琼斯在撒谎，称根本不存在饥荒。

He writes these appalling, appalling stories in The New York Times saying that Gareth Jones is lying and that there is no famine.

实际上，杜兰蒂知道琼斯说的是实情。

And actually, Durante knew that Jones was telling the truth.

但由于新闻竞争以及想维持与斯大林的关系，他干脆撒了谎。

But through journalistic competition and through wanting to keep in with Stalin, he he just lied about it.

《纽约时报》

The New York Times,

嗯，汤姆，我对《纽约时报》的看法是，我几乎找不出几家比它更不被我看重的报纸了。

Well, you know, my opinion of The New York Times, Tom, is I mean, there are very few newspapers I hold in lower regard to The New York Times.

所以，有一部分我非常满足于讲述这个故事。

So I there's part of me that is very satisfied by telling the story.

对。

Right.

但可怜的琼斯最终落得个悲惨的下场。

But poor old Jones comes to a very sticky end.

他从乌克兰去了蒙古。

He goes off to Mongolia after being in Ukraine.

他被禁止进入俄罗斯和苏联。

He's banned from Russia from from the Soviet Union.

他意外地离开了。

Goes off surprised.

他去了蒙古，然后被谋杀了，我想可能是被NKVD、斯大林的秘密警察所害。

He goes off to Mongolia, and the he's murdered, I think, probably by the NKVD, by Stalin's secret police.

所以这是一个非常不幸的结局。

So it's a very unfortunate ending.

但你知道，如果周六晚上球场上气氛变得紧张，英格兰球员应该提醒乌克兰人，英国历史上一直关心并支持乌克兰，而其他人却在说谎。

But, you know, if things get a bit testy on the pitch on Saturday night, the England players should remind the Ukrainians that that Britain has a history of looking out for Ukraine and sticking up for it when others were lying.

还有克里米亚。

And the Crimea.

克里米亚就是新英格兰。

The Crimea is New England.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这会引起非常糟糕的反应，因为克里米亚对乌克兰球员来说肯定是个敏感话题。

I mean, that would go down very badly because the Crimea will be a sore spot for the Ukrainian players, I imagine.

所以我不认为，我觉得

So I don't I don't think I don't think

我觉得一般来说，最好别谈历史话题。

that think just generally, I think just keep off the topic of history.

最安全。

Safest.

你觉得实际上，

Do you think Actually,

作为一条经验法则。

as a rule of thumb.

是的。

Yeah.

哈里，你知道，哈里·马奎尔据说是个历史迷，因为他曾经被逮捕过——哈里·马奎尔，那些不了解的人不知道，他是个身材极其庞大的

Harry you know, Harry Maguire is meant to be a great history buff because when he was arrested so Harry Maguire, for those people don't know, is the sort of enormous

脑袋很大的人。

Huge headed.

脑袋很大的英格兰中后卫。

Huge headed England center back.

在我看来，他是一个非常出色但被严重低估的球员。

Very good, very underrated player in my view.

总之，哈里·马奎尔在希腊被捕了。

Anyway, Harry Maguire was arrested in Greece.

当然，是希腊。

Greece, of course.

希腊当然与乌克兰有联系，因为那里曾经有希腊人的定居点，对吧？

Greece, of course, has its own connections with Ukraine because there were Greek settlements, weren't there?

是的。

Yeah.

在克里米亚等地。

In in Crimea and so on.

所以哈里·马奎尔在希腊被捕了，据称希腊警方说他行为不端，或者说是——我现在可能有点跑题了。

So Harry Maguire was arrested in Greece, and apparently, the Greek police claimed he'd been misbehaving or he'd been well, that's I'm probably introducing him now.

我不认为他行为不端。

I don't think he had been misbehaving.

我认为他可能在夜总会里闹事，或者类似的情况，然后又跟警察起了冲突。

I think he'd have been some fracker in a nightclub or similar or and then then been a fracker with the police.

警方声称哈里·马奎尔曾大喊，我就不重复原话了，大喊了关于希腊警察的脏话。

And the police claims that Harry Maguire had shouted, I won't say exactly, shouted f the f f the Greek police.

骂希腊文明。

F Greek civilization.

我听到这个说法时心想：我根本不相信曼联队长会在凌晨三点，被塞进警车后座时，大谈希腊文明。

Which I need when I heard that, I thought, I don't genuinely believe that the captain of Manchester United shouted about Greek civilization at 03:00 in the morning as he was being bundled into a into the back of a police van.

你知道，哈里·马奎尔会对亚里士多德有强烈看法吗？

You know, does Harry Maguire have strong views about Aristotle?

雅典帝国主义。

Athenian imperialism.

是的。

Yeah.

他确实是个老实人。

He's he's a yes.

正是如此。

Exactly.

我一直是个波斯人。

I've always been a Persian man.

采用了凯撒的框架。

Took Caesar's frame.

你入侵西西里，真该死。

Damn you for invading Sicily.

是的。

Yeah.

永不忘怀。

Never forget.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，

Well

所以，我的意思是，我觉得他不太可能

So, I mean, I I think it's unlikely that he

会吗？你看到那个被发现的巨大头骨了吗？

will Did you see this huge skull that got discovered?

是哈里·马圭尔的，还是其他人的？

Of Harry Maguire or of some other person?

亚当·拉福德，威克利说，哈里·马圭尔长得就像在中国发现的那个不可思议的头骨。

Adam Rufford, Wickley, said Harry Maguire looked like this this incredible skull that was found in China.

我总是觉得，看英格兰体育队伍时，他们看起来像第一次世界大战时期的人，这特别让人满足。

There's something that always I find very satisfying about watching English sporting teams is when they look like people from the First World War.

嗯。

Mhmm.

或者像第二次世界大战时期的新闻影片里的人。

And Harry or or Second World War from newsreels and stuff.

哈里·马圭尔确实有着那种微微皱眉、略带痛苦和焦虑的表情。

Harry Maguire absolutely has that slightly frowning, slightly pained, anxious expression.

是的。

Yeah.

他想要

About he would

冲到最前面。

like to go over the top.

或者有人出国。

Or somebody going abroad.

我一想到英国人出国旅行的样子，就会这样想。

I always think of the English people when they were filmed going abroad.

比如上世纪五十年代德比郡的矿工，他们曾组织过一次去意大利的长途巴士旅行，车上塞满了罐装豆子，因为他们对意大利食物不放心。

Sort of people like the miners from Derbyshire in the nineteen fifties who famously went on a look to Italy on a coach tour with they packed the the inside of the coach with tins of baked beans because they were suspicious of the Italian food.

我觉得哈里·马奎尔绝对是那种类型的人。

I think Harry Maguire is absolutely a man of that ilk.

而杰克·格里利什，我觉得看起来像是狄更斯小说里走出来的人物。

Whereas Jack Grealish, I think, looks like someone out of Dickens.

你知道吗？

Do you know?

我觉得我完全可以想象杰克·格林肖在第一次世界大战中的样子。

I think I can definitely see Jack Grealish in the First World War.

确实如此。

He does.

但我觉得但

But I think but

我觉得他是战壕里的开心果，那种类型的人，

I think The joker of the trench, all that sort of

他是机灵鬼。

He's the artful dodger.

你知道的，他在战壕里打理他那苍白的头发，开心地跑去，是的。

You know, doing his hair, brittle cream hair in the trench, going off to the cheery Yeah.

开心的小店。

Cheery shop.

是的。

Yeah.

在当地女孩中非常受欢迎。

Very popular with the local girls.

她们身处一个被炸毁的法国小镇，他们

They're in the in the bombed out French town that they've they

途经了那里。

passed through.

哈里·凯恩看起来像一位哈布斯堡王子。

And Harry Kane looks like a Habsburg prince.

是的。

Yes.

确实如此。

He does.

他确实有那种气质。

He's got the yes.

他确实如此。

He absolutely does.

这个说法非常到位。

That's a very good call.

所以他本可以统治哈里

So he could have ruled Harry

马奎尔，哈里·马奎尔是第一次世界大战时期的人物。

Maguire Harry Maguire is First World War.

杰克·格林伍德是维多利亚时代的人物。

Jack Grealish is Victorian.

哈里·凯恩是十六世纪的人物。

Harry Kane is sixteenth century.

在我看来，哈里·凯恩这种人本可以统治西乌克兰和加利西亚。

Well, I see Harry Kane is the kind of man who could have ruled Western Ukraine, Galicia.

他本可以以帝国大公的身份访问利沃夫。

He could have visited Lviv on sort of imperial archducal visits.

你不这么认为吗？

Don't you think?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得我们有点跑题了。

I think we're spiraling off here.

我觉得我们会失去听众的。

I think I think we'll be losing our listeners.

所以，多米尼克，假设英格兰赢了。

So, Dominic, if suppose England win.

对。

Yes.

让我们来谈谈，我

Let's And I

我觉得我们应该说，我们认为他们会输。

think I think we should say, we we think they're going to lose.

上次就这么管用。

It worked last time.

是的。

Yeah.

确实管用。

It did work.

所以我们觉得我们会输。

So we think we'll lose.

我觉得这会非常令人沮丧，而且我们现在就会输一场。

I think it'll be very frustrating, and we'll lose one now.

非常令人失望。

Very disappointing.

但是，

But,

如果我们赢了，那就可能有更多机会，特别是如果对手是丹麦的话，英丹关系。

if we if we win, then there'd be opportunities for a further one, particularly if it's Denmark, England Anglo Danish relations.

或者英英富人。

Or Anglo Anglo rich.

是的。

Yeah.

那确实是个很棒的节目。

That's a that's a that's a great game.

我的意思是，这基本上更像一个播客系列，而不是单集播客。

I mean, that's basically a podcast series rather than a podcast.

英捷关系

Anglo Anglo Czech relations

嗯，有一个明显的。

Well, there's one obvious.

就足够了。

Be enough

我认为这又会是一个很大的挑战。

will be another another stretch, I think.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

我们有，我的意思是，除了张伯伦，还有约翰·迪前往布拉格。

We've got well, I mean, apart from Chamberlain, there's John Dee going to Prague.

好的。

Okay.

太棒了。

So Great stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

精彩的场景。

Great scenes.

我们只需要看看对我们来说会成问题的是什么，我认为是捷克对乌克兰的半决赛，因为我觉得捷克和乌克兰的关系，即使以你非凡的才能，汤姆，也难以应对。

We just need to see what would be a problem for us is, I think, a Czech Ukrainian semifinal, because I think Czech Ukrainian relations would be beyond even your mighty talents, Tom.

好吧，我们走着瞧。

Well, we'll see.

我们走着瞧。

We'll see.

让我们希望英格兰赢吧。

Let's let's hope England win.

但正如我所说，我们认为他们会输。

But as I say, we think they're going to lose.

愿最好的一方获胜，祝乌克兰队好运。

May the best well, good luck to the Ukrainians.

我希望他们发挥出色。

I hope they play well.

我希望他们

I hope they

说实话，我认为乌克兰获胜会给乌克兰人带来比我们更大的喜悦，而且他们更需要这场胜利。

I you know, to to be honest, I think the Ukrainian it would victory would bring Ukrainians greater joy than us, and they they need it more.

他们度过了极其艰难的十年。

They've had a dreadful They've had a dreadful ten years.

他们过得不好，是的。

They've had a bad, yeah.

整个世纪。

Century.

所以是的。

So Yeah.

所以如果英格兰输了，我会记住这一点。

So if England lose, I will I will bear that in mind.

是的。

Yeah.

这真是个很好的想法。

That's a very nice sense.