70. 儿童历史

我的意思是，奇怪的是，汤姆，所有这些其实都是成人叙事历史的优点。

I mean, actually, the weird thing is, I think, Tom, is that all those things are virtues of adults narrative histories.

所以某种程度上，为儿童讲述历史并没有什么不同。

So in a in a way, it's not that different an exercise telling history for children.

他们也喜欢事实。

They also they like facts.

是的，他们喜欢事实。

Well, they like facts.

因为我知道我自己就喜欢。

Because I know I did.

他们能分享一些奇怪的事实。

They can share, yeah, weird facts.

这里有个很好的例子。

So here's a good example.

好的。

Okay.

在我写的亨利八世那本书里，我不断和编辑们讨论那些令人不适的细节。

In the Henry the eighth book that I did, I had constant discussions with the editors about about squeamish details.

比如人们被砍头的过程，以及具体是怎么做的。

So about people's heads being cut off and exactly how that was done.

后来我们还提到一个事实：当亨利变得极其肥胖时，他会被塞入一根涂了油的管子，通过灌肠的方式给他灌入蜂蜜之类的东西，试图缓解他的痔疮和严重肥胖，但这反而让他更加暴躁。

And we had a fact there later on when Henry is enormously fat about how he has this greased tube pushed up his bottom, and he's given these enemas of, like, honey and all this kind of thing to try and ease his piles and his enormous obesity, and it just makes him more bad tempered than ever.

我的编辑——他绝对不是个敏感的人——说：‘我觉得这些内容对孩子来说是不是有点过头了？’

And, my editor, who's who's not by any means a squeamish man, said, I wonder if this is a bit much for children actually.

你知道，所有关于灌肠的这些事。

You know, all this stuff about the enemas.

于是我把它拿给四五名孩子看，问他们觉得怎么样。

And I gave this to about four or five children and said, what do you think?

他们说：‘呃，这其实是整本书里最精彩的部分。’

And they said, well, the the you know, this is basically the best bit in the whole book.

我认为孩子们特别喜欢这种新奇古怪的细节。

And I think children love these kind of little curious kind of details.

为什么是《可怕的历史》？

Why horrible histories?

《可怕的历史》主要充满各种灌肠和……

So horrible histories revolve it's it's full of kind of enemas and

全是这些内容。

It's all yeah.

其实就是灌肠和处决，对吧？

It's enemas enemas and executions, basically, isn't it?

是人们用粪便做的各种有趣又滑稽的事情。

It's amusing ways that people amusing amusing stuff that people have done with poo.

是的。

Yeah.

所以《可怕的历史》里没有叙事结构。

So Horrible Histories, there's no narrative in Horrible Histories.

没有。

No.

这是一系列奇特事实的汇编。

It's a compilation of kind of curious facts.

你说得对。

And you're right.

我觉得孩子们喜欢奇特的事实，但我也觉得他们同样喜欢一些戏剧性的情节。

I think kids like curious facts, but I think they also, they do like a bit of drama.

所以，我想我努力做的就是把这两者结合起来。

And so I suppose what I tried to do was to combine those two things.

因为我记得，显然我只对古代的东西感兴趣。

Because I remember as obviously, I basically, I was only interested in ancient stuff.

我会读一些现代题材的内容，但确实如此。

So I would read modern stuff, but Yeah.

有点勉强地读。

Slightly under sufferance.

还有一套由彼得·康诺利写的书，他是一位杰出的插画家，也是研究古代军事的非常严肃的历史学家。

And there were there were a series of books by a guy called Peter Connolly, who was a brilliant illustrator and a very, very serious historian of of the ancient military.

他写了一本叫《罗马军队》的书，然后又出色地写了《希腊军队》。

And he did a book called The The Roman Army and then, brilliantly, The Greek Army.

他还写了一本关于汉尼拔和迦太基人的书。

And he did one on Hannibal and the Carthaginians.

他将希腊和罗马历史各个时期的精彩故事放在书的上方。

And it combined, he he would do little he'd so he'd tell the stories of various, periods of Greek and Roman history at the top.

然后他会提供大量关于武器的细节。

And then he'd give you lots and lots of facts about weaponry.

天哪。

Oh, boy.

是的。

Yeah.

孩子们喜欢

Kids like

这个。

that.

然后他会配上非常棒的插图，包括人们被长矛刺中的场景。

And then he'd and then he'd do great illustrations, including people being stabbed with spears.

是的。

Yeah.

对我来说，这种结合简直是完美的组合。

And the combination for me was a complete winner.

那种大量事实搭配精彩插图的感觉，我也非常喜欢。

And I that that kind of sense of of getting a lot of facts with great illustrations, I also like that.

但这引发了一个关于暴力的非常有趣的问题，不是吗，汤姆？

But that raises a really interesting question about violence, doesn't it, Tom?

所以我们收到了劳伦·马科维茨关于这个问题的提问。

So we had a question from about from Lauren Markowitz about this.

我会把整个问题读给你听，因为它跨越了两条推文。

I'll read you the whole question because it was over two tweets.

这是一个相当有趣的问题。

And it's quite an interesting one.

她说，我儿子小时候是个如饥似渴的读者，对历史着迷且充满无尽的好奇心。

She says, my son was a voracious reader as a child, fascinated and insatiably curious about history.

在为他筛选合适的内容时，比如种族灭绝、酷刑、战争等，颇具挑战性。

Negotiating what was appropriate for him, regenocide, torture, warfare, etcetera, was challenging.

我想我们 somehow 成功地找到了平衡，但还是收到过几次学校的电话。

I think we managed to navigate our way somehow, but there were a few calls from the school.

我们不想粉饰或回避，而他的问题一个接一个，毫不停歇。

We didn't want to sugarcoat or obfuscate, and his line of questioning was relentless.

所以，作为父母，你可以读懂自己的孩子，并在一定程度上成功地帮他们理清这些内容。

So while a parent can read their child, a parent can read their child and sort this out with some degree of success.

但当你为更广泛的儿童读者撰写历史时，该如何应对这个问题呢？

But when you're writing history for a broader child audience, how does one approach this?

我的意思是，我觉得好吧。

I mean, I think Okay.

所以这个问题要问你，因为你显然必须涉及大屠杀。

So that's a question for you because you obviously have to include the Holocaust.

你写过关于第二次世界大战的内容。

You've written about the second World War.

是的。

Yeah.

你是怎么处理这个问题的？

How do how so how do you deal with that?

嗯，其他关于二战的内容我觉得还相对可以处理，但大屠杀是一个更困难的问题。

Well, that was a really so the other the the other stuff in the second war I felt was kinda doable, but the Holocaust was a much more difficult question.

我认为在大屠杀这一章里，必须专门用一整章来讲述。

And I thought there were there were in that, the Holocaust chapter, there had to be a whole chapter on it.

我其实有三种策略。

And I I had sort of three strategies, really.

其中之一是，顺便说一句，为八到十二岁的孩子写这些书，是一件很棒的事。

One was to I mean, one of the great things, by way, about writing these books for a very I mean, we're talking about children eight to 12.

对他们来说，这常常是第一次接触到这些故事。

So often, it's the very first time they encounter these stories.

所以我可以讲述故事，而不用担心它们会显得陈词滥调。

So I could tell stories without any fear that they would be kinda cliche.

好吧，这些故事确实很陈腐，但孩子们不会意识到这一点，因为这可能是他们第一次接触到这些故事。

Well, they are cliches, but there wouldn't be any fear that children would recognize them as such because it might be the first time they've encountered them.

于是我问我的编辑：‘我应该避开安妮·弗兰克吗？’

So I said to my editor, well, should I shy away from Anne Frank?

他说：‘不，不应该。’

And he said, well, no.

不写安妮·弗兰克才是荒谬的。

It's mad to not to do Anne Frank.

她啊，你知道的，这是一个非常了不起的故事。

She's the you know, it's a such a great story.

所以整个章节都是围绕安妮·弗兰克的经历展开的。

So the whole chapter is framed around Anne Frank's experience.

但在其中，我做的另外两件事是：一是提供一个整体概述。

But within that, the two other things I did were, one is to give the overview.

我认为，要谈论奥斯维辛之类的事情，唯一的方式就是完全坦率地为孩子们呈现，直接而赤裸地讲述。

And I think the only way to do that and to talk about Auschwitz and so on is to do it complete for children, is to just do it completely starkly.

而且，你知道，不要沉溺于暴力的感官刺激，不要无谓地煽动情感，因为那样看起来既剥削又多余。

And, you know, not to indulge in the kind of pornography of violence, not to kind of tug the heartstrings unnecessarily because that just seems exploitative and unnecessary.

我认为，你只需要平实地讲述事实即可。

I think you can just tell the facts very plainly.

这就是发生过的事。

This is what happened.

这就是有多少人丧生。

This is how many people died.

你知道，这是极其黑暗和邪恶的一章。

You know, it's an incredibly dark and evil chapter.

但我认为，没有必要以一种剥削性的方式，把孩子们带进毒气室之类的地方，正如我所说的那样。

But I don't think you need to kind of take the children into the gas chambers kind of in a sort of in a in a sort of, as I say, an exploitative way.

但我认为另一个有趣的方式是引入一些东西，其实并不一定非得如此，当然，这是历史上极其黑暗和令人痛苦的一章，但其中也存在着一些微光。

But the other way I thought it would be, an interesting way thing to bring in would be, it doesn't have to I mean, obviously, it's an incredibly dark and and distressing chapter of history, but there are, as it were, chinks of light within it.

所以我讲了那些拯救犹太人的故事，比如奥斯卡·辛德勒那样的故事，或者股票经纪人尼古拉斯·温顿，他把许多孩子救到了英国。

So I did, for example, the stories of people who saved Jews, the kind of Oscar Schindler type stories or Nicholas Winton, the stockbroker, who who got lots of children out to Britain.

但我还讲了

But I also told

就是那个令人惊叹的

That's the one with that amazing

这就是生活。

That's life.

就是生活，还有他身边那些后来被发现是他救下的孩子们。

That's life with all the people around him who turn out to be the children that he'd rescued.

是的。

Yeah.

实际上，所以如果

And actually So if

如果有人还没看过，一定要去看看，

anyone's not seen that, do do, like,

谷歌的催泪故事，所以他们把他请上了节目。

Google's tearjerker, so they bring him onto the show.

是的。

And yeah.

我不会剧透，但你可以在YouTube上搜索‘尼古拉斯·温顿’找到这个视频。

I won't spoil it, but you can find it on YouTube if you search for Nicholas Winton.

但另一个让我觉得真正催泪、写的时候深受感动的故事，是关于丹麦发生的事——丹麦绝大多数犹太人被藏了起来。

But the other story that I also find actually a real tearjerker, and I found incredibly moving writing it, is the story about what happened in Denmark, about how basically the vast majority of Dan Denmark's Jewish population, they were hidden.

虽然犹太人口很少，但他们都得到了邻居们的庇护。

There was a small population, but they were hidden by their neighbors.

然后他们被用渔船偷偷运送到瑞典。

And then they were smuggled to Sweden in kind of fishing boats

等等。

and so on.

我记得我去过华盛顿的犹太大屠杀纪念馆。

I I remember going to the Holocaust Museum in maybe Washington.

我想那一定是华盛顿。

I think it must have been Washington.

那是我整个博物馆参观过程中唯一一次流泪。

And it was the only time I actually cried in the whole museum.

因为其他时候，我只是感到麻木、被压得喘不过气、震惊不已。

Because the rest of the time, just felt, you know, deadened by it, overwhelmed by it, stunned by it.

而那是因为他们展示了一艘船。

And that because and they showed one of the boats.

墙上挂着一艘曾运送难民横渡海洋的船。

They had one of the boats on the wall that that had had taken the refugees across to across the sea.

因为这是关于人们行善的故事，突然间你感到有权利去

And because it was about people doing good, suddenly you felt licensed to

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yep.

我完全认同这一点。

I totally I totally buy that.

于是我把它写了下来，在写作过程中，我把这个故事压缩到大约八百字左右，并找到一两个能讲述这个故事的角色。

So I put that in, and and while I was writing it, you know, condensing this story into kind of 800 words or something and and finding one or two characters who could tell it.

好的。

Okay.

这是一个故事。

And there's a story.

这是一个学生。

It's a student.

我想他叫威尔霍兰德·林特，他在人群涌向码头的洪流中发现了她——一个与父母走散的小女孩，正在哭泣。

I think his name is Wilholland Lindt, and he finds her in the in the great movement of the crowd towards the quay, there's a girl who's separated from her parents, like a little girl, and she's crying.

他把她放在自行车的车把上，骑到码头，把她交还给了父母。

And he puts her on the handlebars of his bike, and he he rides down to the quay and reunites with her parents.

他们把她送上船，她便前往瑞典了。

And they put her on the boat, and off she goes to Sweden.

这是一个非常鼓舞人心且动人的故事。

And it's an incredibly heartening and moving story.

他自己说，当船离开时，他哭了，他不知道自己是为这么多人获救而哭，还是几乎因为这样的事情竟然发生而感到羞愧。

And he says himself, he he was crying as the boat pulled away, and he didn't know whether he was crying that they got so many people out or whether he was crying with shame almost that this was happening at all.

我认为，这些正是会留在人们记忆中的故事。

And I think, you know, those are the kinds of stories that stick in people's minds.

事实上，让孩子们对历史产生兴趣，很大程度上正是通过这些个体瞬间，对吧？

And, actually, so much about getting children interested in the history is through these individual moments, isn't it?

好的。

Okay.

嗯，我

Well, I

我觉得我们现在应该休息一下。

think that's we we should have a break at this point.

回来后，也许我们可以再探讨一下暴力问题，我想，孩子们，尤其是小男孩，可能特别感兴趣。

When we come back, perhaps we could, look again at, the issue of violence, which, I guess, children, maybe particularly little boys, particularly keen on.

我知道我当时是。

I know that I was.

是的。

Yeah.

看看这个问题。

And look at that question.

我们几分钟后回来。

So we'll be back in we'll be back in a few minutes.

你好。

Hello.

欢迎回到《历史其他部分》。

Welcome back to the rest is history.

我们正在讨论儿童历史。

We are talking history for children.

在广告之前，我们正在讨论多米尼克写了一本关于第二次世界大战的书，我们谈到了如何为儿童书写像大屠杀这样可怕而邪恶的事情。

And before the break, we were talking about well, Dominic's written a book on Second World War, and we were talking about how do you write about something as as terrible and monstrous as the Holocaust for for children.

但我认为第二次世界大战之所以是一个敏感话题，是因为它离我们太近了。

But I guess one of the reasons why the Second World War is is a raw subject is because it is so close.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我提到了普兰塔热内特·萨默塞特·弗莱的那本书，里面有一段描述罗马人与高卢人的战斗。

So I I I mentioned the, the Plantagenet Somerset Fry book, and there's a sequence in that as a a set of the Romans fighting the Gauls.

我喜欢这一段，因为它和《星战》有相似之处，而《星战》是我接触历史、尤其是古代历史的入门之作。

And I like that because it matched up with asterisks, which was one of the kind of gateway drugs for me into into history and particularly ancient history.

当然，《星战》的一个重要情节是罗马对高卢的占领，这显然与纳粹占领法国有相似之处。

And, of course, one of the things about asterisks is that, it it features a, you know, it features a Roman occupation of of Gaul, and there are clearly echoes there of the Nazi occupation of France.

对。

Yeah.

当时，我

At the time, I

根本没意识到这些情节是在有意影射那段历史。

had no idea that that these, you know, play was being made with that.

但它也借鉴了高卢人在罗马征服时期所经历的历史经验。

But it is also drawing on the historical experience that Gaul underwent when the Romans conquered it.

在《阿斯泰里克斯》中，没有人死亡。

And in Asterix, nobody dies.

最糟糕的情况也不过是某人被甩到树上，头上转着星星，你知道的，绕着头转圈。

The the worst that happens is that somebody might end up in a tree with stars going round, you know, going around the head.

但当然，根据普鲁塔克的说法，凯撒征服时杀了一百万高卢人，并奴役了另一百万。

But, of course, the reality is, you know, according to Plutarch, Caesar conquered Caesar killed a million Gauls and enslaved another million.

是的。

And Yeah.

老实说，在我整个童年时期，我对这些一无所知。

To be honest, for most of my childhood, I was completely oblivious to that.

我认为，我小时候喜欢古代历史的原因之一，是因为它既令人兴奋、光彩夺目，又充满暴力与恐惧，但同时也让人感到安全，因为它遥远而隔绝。

And I think that one of the reasons why I I enjoyed ancient history as a child was the feeling that it was simultaneously very, very exciting and glamorous and violent and frightening, but it was also kind of safe because it was distant and removed.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，同样地，我对恐龙的着迷也是如此，它们既迷人又令人恐惧。

And I think this you know, the same is true with dinosaurs, my kind of fascination with dinosaurs, that they were glamorous and and terrifying.

我不希望和霸王龙待在一起，但我也永远不会和霸王龙待在一起，因为它们已经灭绝了。

And I wouldn't want to be with a tyrannosaur, but I would never be with a tyrannosaur because they were extinct.

同样地，我能够从彼得·康诺利那些惊人的画作中感受到一种震撼。

And in the same way, I could kind of thrill to the spectacle of, you know, these amazing drawings by Peter Connolly.

他出色地描绘了亚历山大渡过格拉尼库斯河、斯巴达人坚守温泉关、萨拉米斯海战等场景。

Did a fabulous illustration of Alexander crossing the Granicus and of the Spartans at Thermopylae and Battle of Salamis and so on.

这令人激动，因为这一切都如此遥远，我只需要感受它的魅力即可。

And it was thrilling because this was so distant that all I really had to deal with was the glamour of it.

是的。

Yeah.

我不知道你是否也曾有过这样的感受。

And I think that that I don't know whether that was something that you've felt ever experienced.

但仔细想想，我认为这确实解释了为什么古代史和中世纪史对我有如此特殊的吸引力。

But I think but but thinking about it, I think it really explains for me why ancient history and medieval history had a particular purchase on my imagination.

而现在，当我作为成年人写到这些时，我觉得非常重要的是要传达出那种残酷感，以及当时确实有人丧生的事实。

And now when I about when I write about it as an adult, why I feel it's so important to convey actually a sense of of the brutality of it and the fact that people did die.

正如你所知，这可不是《高卢英雄传》那样的故事。

As you know, it wasn't it wasn't like Asterix.

人们承受了可怕的痛苦。

People suffered horribly.

我觉得这是一个极其有趣的问题。

I think this is an absolutely fascinating question.

某种程度上，我们正在偏离儿童文学这个话题，因为我完全同意你的观点，我认为我们对同情、共情或类似情感的接受似乎存在某种奇怪的时效限制。

In some ways, we're kind of spiraling away from the issue of children's fiction because I absolutely agree with you that I think there's a kind of a strange statute of limitations most on on our sympathy or empathy or or whatever.

所以我觉得很有趣的是，比如二十世纪的一场暴行，即使死亡人数并不特别高，也会激起我们巨大的怜悯之情。

So I I think it is fascinating how, you know, an atrocity in the twentieth century, even one where the death toll is not especially high, will will call forth enormous reserves of kind of pity from us.

但你读到的可能是保加利亚屠夫巴西尔之类的人物。

But, you know, you'll read about, I don't know, Basil the Bulgar slayer or something.

但你真的会去读关于他的内容吗？

But you don't read about him, do you?

杀死大量的人。

Killing loads of people.

但你可以读到

But you can read about

或者亚历山大大帝。

do or Alexander the Great.

有一本关于亚历山大大帝的莉迪·伯德丛书。

So there was a there was a Lady Bird book on Alexander the Great.

没有。

No.

但我是说，作为成年人，人们也会这样。

But I'm saying as as an adult, even people do this.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yes.

成年人。

Adult

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我认为实际上并没有太大区别，你明白吧。

I mean, I don't think it's actually that different, you see.

对于孩子来说，尤其是这样。

Now for a child for a child, even more so.

孩子会读到关于战斗、刺杀之类的描述。

A child, you'll read accounts of battles and, you know, assassinations and things.

而且你说得对。

And and be you're right.

所有这些都发生在遥远的过去。

It all happens at one remove.

而且，事件发生得越久远，你就越可能把它看作纯粹的童话故事，而不会因此感到任何不安。

And be if it happen the further back it happens, the less like the more likely you are to see it as purely the stuff of a storybook and not to feel troubled by it in any way.

我的意思是，这不仅适用于儿童的历史故事，也普遍适用于儿童故事。

I mean, that's true, I think, of children's stories more generally, history or not.

我的意思是，如果你看一部《星球大战》电影，有多少人死了？

I mean, if you watch a Star Wars film, how many people die?

你知道的吗？

You know?

我的意思是，死在死星上的人有多少？

I mean, their mo how many people died on the Death Star?

或者，在《魔戒》里，战斗中死了多少人？

Or, you know, in Tolkien, how many people are killed in the battles?

你有没有一种强烈的感觉？

Do you feel a great sense?

对那些小兽人吗？

To the baby orcs?

是的。

Yeah.

没错，正是如此。

Well, exactly.

我的意思是，你对孩子们，尤其是小男孩们，怎么看？

I mean, do you to children children I mean, especially little boys.

我的意思是，人们可以争论这是否正确，或者类似的问题，但这本身就可以做成一整季播客的内容。

I mean, people can argue about whether it's right or whatever, and that's a subject for a whole podcast series in itself.

但他们非常享受大量的暴力内容。

But they enjoy an awful lot of of violence.

我的意思是，你根本不需要观察操场上的男孩们，就能知道他们有这种冲动。

I mean, you didn't really have to watch boys in the playground to know that there is that that urge.

我认为如果不这样反而奇怪，因为我们生活在一个人类世界，而不是完美世界。

And I think it'd be weird not to well, we live in we live in a human world, not a perfect world.

但我认为，从童年到成年，以及从我小时候到现在，这种视角确实发生了进一步的转变。

But I think there's a further kind of shifting of the kaleidoscope on that, both between childhood and adulthood, but also changing perspectives from certainly when I was a child and now.

我们有两个问题。

And we've got two questions.

一个是来自罗马·米哈尔的：你认为在‘觉醒’之后，儿童历史的未来会是什么样？

One from Roman Mihar who says, what do you think the future of children's histories will be post woke?

过去的儿童历史著作以其广度和深度令人惊叹，但未来是否会聚焦于每个弱势群体的生活经历？

The older children's histories are amazing for their breadth and width, but will the survivor focus on the lives of each disadvantaged group and their lived experience, etcetera?

另一个来自理查德·戈德斯坦：孩子们能教成年人关于历史的什么？

And then from Richard Goldstein, what do children teach adults about history?

当我提到印第安人时，我儿子反驳说：他们之所以叫印第安人，是因为哥伦布以为自己到了印度。

When I refer to Indians, my son retorts they're only called Indians because Columbus thought he was in India.

当一个14岁的孩子提出修正美洲原住民历史的观点时，我发现自己对这种观点不再那么抵触。

I found myself less hostile to the revision native American when advocated by a 14 year old.

我之前为了准备这次对话，读了一些关于《Lady Bird》系列书籍的内容。

And I guess that so I I was reading about the Lady Bird books in preparation for this.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，显然即使在二十世纪七十年代，比如就有一本关于沃尔特·拉利的书。

And, apparently, even in the nineteen seventies, for instance, there's one on Walter Raleigh.

在1957年，你看到他发动了一场对埃尔多拉多等地居民的攻击。

And in 1957, you see him launching in a an attack on people in, I guess, El Dorado or whatever.

是奥里诺科河吧？

The Orinoco, wasn't it?

我想他是顺流而上的。

He went up, I think.

你从插图中获得的视角是拉利的视角。

And the perspective you're given in the illustration is of Raleigh.

然后这本书在1980年再版时，视角变成了那些看到拉利到来的人。

And then this was reissued in 1980, and the perspective is that of of the people seeing Raleigh come.

所以你是通过他们的眼睛来看待拉利的。

So you're seeing Raleigh through their eyes.

是在插图中还是在文本中？

In the illustration or in the text?

是的。

Yes.

在插图中。

In the illustration.

对。

Right.

插图。

The illustration.

没错。

Yeah.

所以，我想有一件事很可能已经改变了，那就是我们将在下一期节目中与萨特南·桑盖拉讨论大英帝国。

So and I guess that one of the things that that probably has changed is that so we're going to be talking to Satnam Sangera about the British Empire in our next episode.

但有一件事我确信已经改变了，那就是许多帝国历史都是以冒险为基调来叙述的，没错。

But one of the things that that I'm sure has changed is that a lot of imperial history was couched in terms of adventure, of Yeah.

英国探险家，无论是拉尔夫·莱利、库克船长、戈登将军还是其他人，都去远方经历冒险。

British adventurers, be it Raleigh, be it captain Cook, be it general Gordon or whoever, going off and having adventures.

是的。

Yes.

在遥远的异域他乡。

In in exotic far flung places

《国王的人》的开端。

where the man who would be king start.

《国王的人》。

The man who would be king.

而显然，现在这变得更加复杂了。

And, obviously, that's more complicated now.

是的。

Yeah.

确实是。

It is.

我认为这实际上是一个非常有趣的话题。

And I think that's actually a really interesting, subject.

所以，这个《时光冒险》系列的下一本新书将讲述征服者的故事。

So a future book in this series, this Adventures in Time series, is going to be about the conquistadors.

当我们讨论这个话题时，我们进行了一场关于‘谁在讲述这个故事’的深入对话。

And when we were talking about it, we we had a big conversation about, you know, who's who's telling the story?

谁是主角？谁是英雄？

Who's who are the who are the heroes?

你知道的，是谁？

Who are the you know?

而且，说实话，我还没开始写，只是提前在思考。

And, you know, I I felt I mean, I haven't actually written it yet, so I'm just sort of jumping ahead.

但我认为，那些登上船只、横跨大洋的人，必须是故事的开端，因为对孩子来说，这立刻让人想到——你有没有想过

But I I felt that the guys getting on the ships and going across has to be the start of the story because to a child, that is immediately Did you did you

在和卡米拉·汤森交谈之后，你不觉得吗？

not think, after talking to Camilla Townsend

是的。

Yeah.

关于阿兹特克人，实际上阿兹特克人从……的迁徙历程

About the Aztecs, that actually the the journey of the Aztecs from

没错，但你没有足够的史料来这样讲述。

Well, it is, but you you don't have the sources to be able to tell it in a kind of do.

我的意思是，能这么做吗？

I mean, could kind do.

我认为西班牙人登船的故事更有意思，有多少儿童故事是以一次航行开始的呢？

And I think the story of the Spaniards going on the ships, how many children's stories start with a voyage?

你知道的？

You know?

我觉得这是个很棒的故事。

I think that's a great story.

但那里有

But there's

文字故事。

text stories.

当他们到达那里时，你必须从当地人的视角来看待这些突然从不知何处冒出来的、长着胡须的怪异疯子，而这种视角在二三十年前是不太可能有的。

When they get there, you have to then give the perspective of the people to whom there's these bunch of weird bearded lunatics who pitched up from god knows where, which you wouldn't have done or or it would have been much less likely twenty or thirty years ago.

所以我认为，可以在冒险故事中融入多种视角和一些细微差别，而不是把它讲成一个纯粹道德化的冒险故事。

So I think there's a way to reconcile adventure with multiple perspectives and with a bit of nuance and and not telling it as a sort of purely moralistic adventure story.

我的意思是，你真的这么认为吗？我们有个问题。

I mean, do you think so so we've got a question.

是的。

Yes.

来自西奥博尔德·泰格。

From Theobold Tiger.

我得承认，H.E. 马歇尔的《我们的岛屿故事》点燃了我的兴趣。

Have to confess that H E Marshall, our island story, lit the spark for me.

这说的是1955年。

This is talking about 1955.

至少她把库努特的故事讲对了顺序。

At least she got the Cunut story the right the right way around.

我想这是在阻挡海浪。

I guess that's stopping the waves.

有点像体罚，虽然没造成持久伤害，但我今天几乎不会推荐这种方式。

A bit like corporal punishment, it didn't do any lasting harm, but I'd hardly recommend it today.

但插图很棒。

But great illustrations.

这真有趣。

That's funny.

实际上，我们的《岛屿故事》出人意料地具有进步性。

Actually, I mean, actually, our island story is surprisingly progressive.

书中有很多内容提到，作者是一位女性。

There's quite a lot of stuff about there's a woman writing it.

我想她来自新西兰。

I think she was from New Zealand.

我想她稍微带着一种局外人的视角。

I think she slightly had an outsider's perspective

对。

on Yeah.

亨丽埃塔

Henrietta

主流之外。

the mainstream.

但你也知道，《我们的岛屿故事》差不多成了一种特定儿童史书写作风格的代名词，这种写作根植于一种，怎么说呢，对英国所取得的辉煌成就的执念，而且

But, you know, Our Island Story is kind of shorthand for a particular way of writing children's history that's rooted in a sense of, I guess, you know, the the glories of British achievement and

对。

Yeah.

我小时候有一本祖父母送给我的书。

I mean, I had a book that my grandparents gave me as a child.

我记得那本书原本是他们的。

I think it used to be theirs.

作者是一个叫亚瑟·迈克尔·约翰的人，出版年份我记得是1902年。

It was by somebody called Arthur Michael John, and it was published in, I think, nineteen o two.

那本书太棒了。

And it was it was brilliant.

其实我不该这么说，但它是一世纪一世纪地讲下去的。

Actually, I shouldn't say this, but it it went through century by century.

每个世纪结束时，都会有一个章节。

At the end of each century, it said they had a chapter.

它始终有一个章节叫‘伟人’，里面只告诉你那20个你必须知道的伟人，比如索尔兹伯里勋爵。

It had unfailingly, it had a chapter called great men, and it just told you the 20 great men that you needed to know, you know, that did Lord Solisbury.

从来没有。

Never.

里面从来没有出现过女性。

There was never a woman.

波迪卡，总该有她吧。

Boudicca, surely.

而且他们全都是特拉法加广场上那种将军类型的人物。

And they really were all the sort of generals that are in Trafalgar Square.

我的意思是，现在听好了。

I mean, it was now now listen.

我的意思是，历史课本总是反映其时代的特点。

I mean, I think history books always reflect their times.

确实如此。

They do.

但不仅如此，它们难道不也反映神话吗？

But but but more than that, do they not reflect myths?

是的。

So Yeah.

当然。

Of course.

从某种意义上说，为了让历史对儿童更易理解，你必须在一定程度上将其神话化。

There's there's a kind of in a sense, to to to make history accessible to children, you have to mythicize it to a degree.

在一定程度上。

To a degree.

很可能，这个神话会与当时正在传播的更广泛的国家神话相契合。

Likelihood is that that myth will go with the grain of the broader national myth that is being propagated at the time.

所以，这是个好观点。

So our is good point.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我们的岛国故事，关键就在‘岛国’这个词上。

So our island story, the the clue is in the word island.

这全都关于海军。

It's all about the navy.

它被设定在一片银色的海洋中。

It's about set in a silver sea.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，你会遇到一些神话，比如阿尔弗雷德大帝创立了皇家海军，暗示着从阿尔弗雷德时代一直到中世纪都存在某种延续性。

So so you have myths like the idea of, you know, Alfred the Great founding the royal navy, implying that there's kind of continuity from the time of Alfred right the way through the Middle Ages.

从这个意义上说，纳尔逊、日德兰海战等等，都是这一连续叙事的一部分。

And that in that sense, you know, Nelson and Jutland and and everything is all it's all part of a continuous narrative.

但现在我们有了新的神话。

But now we have new myths.

是的。

Yes.

我想确实如此。

I guess we do.

我的意思是，汤姆，我们收到了很多关于这个问题的提问，比如故事是如何被扭曲以适应儿童的等等。

I mean, actually, Tom, we had a lot of questions about this, about how do you you know, stories being distorted for children and all that stuff.

一个很好的例子是奥利弗·克伦威尔。

So the lady a good example of that is the Oliver Cromwell.

我们和保罗·莱讨论过这个话题。

We talked about this with Paul Lay.

《奥利弗·克伦威尔》这本儿童读物开篇讲了两个根本不是真的故事。

The Oliver Cromwell Lady Bird book starts with two stories that are just not true.

其中一个故事说，他小时候被猴子偷走了，另一个故事说，查理一世曾到他家拜访，他们八岁左右时还打了一架。

One of them is, he's stolen by a monkey as a boy, and the other is that Charles the the other that Charles the first visits his house, and they have a fight when they are sort of eight years old or something.

他们讲述了关于奥利弗·克伦威尔的两个事实。

And they tell the two facts about Oliver Cromwell.

这些都应该是每个孩子都应该学习的。

That all children should learn.

但这些事一直占据着我的脑海。

But they're putting me uppermost in my brain.

我怎么也甩不掉它们。

I can't get rid of them.

它们就像眼前飞舞的浮尘。

They're like floaters.

但这些事情又没法把它们清除掉。

But the things can't flush them away.

这些故事确实能引起孩子对历史的兴趣，而你之后还有很多时间去澄清真相。

That that that that so those stories get a child interested in history, and you've got ample time to debunk them later.

我的意思是，在关于第二次世界大战的书中，比如我有一章讲敦刻尔克。

I mean, in the Second World War book, for example, I have a chapter about Dunkirk.

我可以深入讲述这个故事，说参与的是一些小船，但它们的重要性不如大型驱逐舰。

Now I could have gone in and said, the way to tell this story is to say, there were some little ships involved, but they weren't as important as the big destroyers.

但我只是想，谁会认为这样讲才能引起孩子的兴趣？哪个正常人会这么想？

And I just thought, who the hell is what child what sane person thinks that's the way to interest a child?

引起孩子兴趣的方式是说：我来讲一艘小船的故事。

The way to interest a child is to say, I'll take one little ship.

你知道，敦刻尔克中那艘小船的灵感来源，其实是一个非常著名的故事。

You know, it's basically the inspiration for the little ship in in Dunkirk is a very famous story.

这个人叫查尔斯·利索尔。

It's a man called Charles Lytholler.

他已经退休了。

He's retired.

我想他曾经登上过泰坦尼克号。

He's I think he's been on the Titanic.

他逃出来了。

He's escaped.

他现在退休了。

He's retired now.

他有一艘小船，这是他的骄傲和珍爱。

He's got this little boat that's his pride and joy.

他驾着它前往敦刻尔克。

He takes it across to Dunkirk.

他把所有士兵都装上了船。

He fills it with all the men.

他们遭到德国人的火力攻击。

They're under fire by the Germans.

他们躲过了飞机的扫射，一路平安返回，然后卸下了士兵。

They escaped planes shooting at them, they get all the way back, and he unloads them.

这是一个非常鼓舞人心的故事，与J.B.普里斯特利后来在广播中讲述的那些小船的故事相呼应。

And it's just incredibly heartening story, and it fits in with JB Priestley's stuff on the radio that he does a little later about the little ships.

对我来说，这是让一个可能对历史了解不多、也对历史没什么兴趣的九岁孩子参与进来的方法。

That is, to me, the obvious way to get a nine year old who maybe doesn't have a colossal amount of knowledge about history or great investments in history to get them involved.

以后的人生中还有很多时间去澄清真相，比如我们之前听罗杰·克拉克谈过幽灵，对吧？

And there's plenty of time later in life to debunk, to you know, we we had Roger Clark talking about ghosts, didn't he?

不是吗？

Didn't we?

他在那里面提到，人们总是更喜欢荒诞的说法，而不是揭穿真相。

And he said in that, people always prefer the bunk to the debunk.

我认为两者都有其存在的空间。

And there's room for both, I think.

好的。

Okay.

那么，就到此为止吧。

Well, on that occasion.

来自米科拉伊·基什科的问题。

Question from Mikolaj Kieshko.

基本上，米科拉伊。

Basically Mikolaj.

米科拉伊。

Mikolaj.

抱歉。

Sorry.

米科拉伊。

Mikolaj.

儿童历史总是宣传吗？

Is children's history always propaganda?

不，我认为不是。

No, I would say.

因为我认为，我对这个问题的回答是，宣传只允许一种解读。

Because I think propaganda propaganda my answer to that would be that propaganda only permits of one interpretation.

我的意思是，这正是它被称为宣传的原因。

I mean, that's why it is propaganda.

而我认为，你可以写一部给儿童的历史读物，其中留有空间，暗示分歧或争论。

Whereas I think you can write a children's history that has room for that that hints at disagreement or debate.

所以我写了一本关于亚历山大大帝的书，将在圣诞节前出版。

So I wrote one book that's coming out in before Christmas about Alexander the Great.

书中有一些地方，我说过，有些人认为亚历山大做了这件事。

And there's there's bits in that where I say, you know, some people said Alexander did this.

另一些人则认为他做了那件事。

Others said he did that.

我认为，时不时地传达一种不确定性是很重要的。

I think you have to give a sense of uncertainty from time to time.

你知道的。

You know?

有些人认为丘吉尔是这样的。

Some people thought Churchill was this.

有些人则认为丘吉尔是另一种样子。

Some people think Churchill was something else.

我认为这使它与宣传不同，这样孩子就能思考：关于这件事有不同的观点，也许并没有一个正确的答案。

And I think that makes it different from propaganda to sort of say so that the child can think, well, there are different views about this, and maybe they there isn't one right answer.

这很好。

That's good.

对。

Yeah.

这很好。

That's good.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

但我觉得有一件事是孩子们根本不在乎的，而且这也是可以理解的，他们不在乎历史编纂学。

But I think one thing that children do not give a damn about, and understandably, they don't give a damn about historiography.

他们根本不在乎史料。

They don't really give a damn about sources.

他们只想赶紧讲完这个故事。

They just wanna crack on and tell the story.

你需要明白，这正是写作与写作之间的不同之处。

And you need to I mean, that's one thing that's different from writing and writing.

你得做出决定。

You need to make up your mind.

其实，当一名报纸经济学家更好。

It's better being a newspaper economist, actually.

你得下定决心，果断行动，尽可能讲清楚故事的某一种版本。

You need to make up a mind make up your mind and just go for it and tell one version of the story as much as possible.

你可以保留一些灰色地带，但你必须做到。

And you can have gray areas, but it's gotta be you've got

你知道的，总得有个好人。

you know, there's gotta be a goodie.

我刚读过多米尼克书中关于亨利八世的内容，他是个调皮捣蛋、爱玩爱闹的小男孩，还是个肥胖、贪婪、忧郁的病夫？是个运动健将、艺术爱好者、霸凌者还是吹牛大王？是个为英格兰挺身而出的强势统治者，还是个自私的暴君，将国家撕得四分五裂？

Well, I just to give people flavor from Dominic's book on Henry the eighth, was he a mischievous, fun loving little boy or a fat, greedy, brooding invalid, a sportsman, an art lover, a bully or a braggart, a strong ruler who stood up for England, or a selfish tyrant who tore it apart?

答案是什么？

What's the answer?

我觉得这就是该收尾的基调，不是吗？

I think that that is the note on which to end, isn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

别管这个

Leave that

就让它悬着吧。

leave that hanging.

但你知道吗？

But you know what?

我们要做一个

We're going to do an

关于亨利八世的节目，很快就会推出，

episode on Henry the eighth fairly soon,

你可以给出答案。

and you can you can give the answer.

我们马上就要谈到这个了。

We are gonna come up on that.

但在我们结束之前，你不是答应过我们的一个听众，要问她一个问题吗？

But before we go, have you not promised one of our listeners that you will ask her a question?

哦，是的。

Oh, yes.

我答应了。

I have.

是的。

Yes.

我答应了。

I have.

抱歉。

Sorry.

安妮·斯科特。

Annie Scott.

安妮，我希望你还记得是谁记住了你的问题。

Annie, I hope you remember who it was who remembered your question.

是的。

Yes.

不是那个在推特上空口许诺的人，而是真正关心……

Not the person who had made the empty promise on Twitter, but the person who really cares about the

英语。

English.

我当众丢脸了。

I'm publicly shamed.

其实，我之所以没问这个问题，是因为它实际上关乎学校里的历史教育。

Well, actually, the reason that the reason that, I didn't ask this is because it's actually about history in schools.

这是一个大话题，但也许我们现在该稍作暗示，让安妮得到答案，然后我们稍后再回来讨论。

It's big topic, but maybe we should hint at the answer now so that Annie gets Annie gets her, and then we can come back to it later on.

所以我认为我们要做一个主题，专门做一期播客，讲历史和教育。

So I think we're we're going to do a subject we're gonna do a whole podcast on, history and education.

但Annie的问题是，学校应该教哪些历史，其他科目的老师是否应该把他们的学科放在历史背景中讲解？

But Annie's question is, what history should be taught in school, and should teachers of other subjects put their subject into its historical context?

#典型的教师问题。

Hashtag typical teacher question.

但我答应过Paul和Tom会回答，我差点就没答应。

But I promised he Paul and Tom promised he'd answer, and I almost didn't.

那么，该教哪些历史呢？来吧，Tom。

So what history come on, Tom.

学校里我们应该教三件事。

Three things that we should do in schools.

我觉得应该是基督教的历史、罗马共和国的衰亡，以及波斯战争。

Oh, I think the history of Christianity, the history of the fall of the Roman Republic, and, obviously, the Persian Wars.

是的。

Yeah.

你看，我的答案是，我觉得我们可能应该讲一下七十年代末期，或者七十年代初的那段时期。

See, my answer would be, I think probably we should do the last years of the well, probably the first years of the nineteen seventies.

是的。

Yes.

七十年代末期和九十年代初的那段时期，不，等等。

The last years of the nineteen seventies and the first years of the '19 no.

实际上，我来好好回答一下。

Actually, I'm gonna answer it properly.

我认为人们应该学习——每个听过这个播客的人都知道，我们都认为孩子们应该学习十七世纪的历史，因为那段历史太被忽视了。

I think people should do we everybody knows who's listened to this podcast that we both think children should learn about the seventeenth century because it's so little.

对。

Yes.

他们还应该学习，但当

Think they should also learn about But when

你说'孩子们'，你指的是什么？

you say children, what do you mean?

我的意思是，孩子的定义是什么？

I mean, what's the definition of a child?

我们说的是多大的孩子？

What age are we talking about?

我觉得每个人都知道什么是孩子。

I think everyone knows what a child is.

不。

No.

我不知道。

I don't.

因为，你是说，比如小学？

Because because are you talking, you know, primary school?

嗯，那是一种

Well, that's a

中学的第一年还是GSB？

good first year of secondary school or GSB?

问题。

Question.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为你显然在不同时间谈论不同的事情，不是吗？

It's a very I think I think you're obviously, you're talking about different things at different times, aren't you?

你在谈论年幼的孩子。

You're talking for smaller children.

这就是为什么它很复杂。

That's why it's complicated.

这都是为了试图

It's all in attempt to try and

对。

Yeah.

把这个问题简化成一个快速的答案。

Get this into a a single quick answer.

好的。

Okay.

所以有三件事。

So three things.

那么他们应该从罗马时期开始，并学习罗马史。

So then they should start, and they should do the Romans.

是的。

Yes.

显然。

Obviously.

我认为他们应该学习十七世纪。

I think they should do the seventeenth century.

对。

Yes.

他们应该以二十世纪作为结束。

And they should finish up by doing twentieth century.

哦，二十世纪什么？

Oh, twentieth century what?

中国。

China.

不。

No.

我认为他们应该以世界大战为切入点，然后深入探讨七十年代中期的工党政府。

I think they should do maybe a smash with the world wars, they should get into the labor government of the mid seventies.

接着讲杰里米·索普丑闻。

And then I'll Jeremy Thorpe scandal.

是的。

Yeah.

杰里米·索普丑闻。

The Jeremy Thorpe scandal.

没错。

Exactly.

在我们大获成功的杰里米·索普播客之后，我认为人们——我相信现在全英国的孩子们——都在排队购买关于林卡的书籍。

On the back of our colossally successful Jeremy Thorpe podcast, I think people will all be children, I I believe even now across Britain are queuing up to buy books about Rinka.

好吧，就以这个重磅消息收尾。

Well, on that bombshell.

太棒了。

Great.

好的。

Okay.

嗯，我觉得我们已经理清了。

Well, I think we've sorted out.

现在我们可以再试一次。

Now we can have a second stab.

现在我让你来结束这个播客。

Now I'll let you finish the podcast.

我的意思是，我认为我们无法以任何严肃的方式回答这个问题，恰恰说明我们需要专门做一期关于历史与教育的节目。

Well, I mean, think I think, basically, that that our inability to answer that question in any way seriously shows that we do need an entire episode on history and education.

那我们就把这个放一边。

So we'll we'll stack that one up.

安妮，我差点忘了你，非常抱歉。

And, Annie, my huge apologies for almost forgetting you.

当这个话题再次出现时，请继续给我们发问题，

Please do send us more questions when that topic comes up,

我保证这次不会了。

and I promise I won't that time around.

但你再顺便提一下那些书吧，汤姆。

But you should also plug the books one more time, Tom.

是的。

Yes.

所以多米尼克

So Dominic

真惊人，我居然还得提醒他们。

shocking that I have to remind them.

你知道吗，多米尼克有这些关于时间冒险、亨利八世的六位妻子和第二次世界大战的内容。

You know, Dominic's got these adventure in time, six wives of Henry the eighth and the second World War.

是的。

Yeah.

谁在乎呢？

Who cares?

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

这又不是你从来没推广过自己的东西。

It's not as if you've never plugged your own.

得了吧。

Come on.

我会做得稍微含蓄一点。

I'd do it slightly more subtly.

我的听众会对此做出评判的。

My listeners will be the judge of that.

而且

And

是的

yeah.

所以，书里最精彩的部分其实是最后的作者注释。

So it's it's there's a there's a lovely the almost the best bits in it are the author's note at the end.

我认为，任何在考虑是否要为孩子买这本书的人，都应该看看这本书最后关于亨利八世六位妻子的那一段，那是多米尼克写给他儿子的献词。

And I think that anyone wondering whether to get this for their child, it's the very last paragraph in the book on the six wives of Henry VIII, Dominic's dedication to his son.

最重要的是，感谢亚瑟，他在我的写作过程中读了每一章，认真地在每一场战役、每一场大屠杀和每一个被斩下的头颅旁打钩，并且还因为我写了绞刑、肢解和四分五裂而给我额外加分。

Above all, thank you to Arthur, who read every chapter as I wrote it, solemnly ticking every battle, every massacre, and every severed head, and giving me extra points for hangings, drawings, and quarterings.

我再也找不到比他更热情、更嗜血的读者了。

I could not have asked for a more enthusiastic or more bloodthirsty reader.

谁会不想读这段话呢？

Who would not want to read that?

非常感谢。

Thanks ever so much.

再见。

Bye bye.

下次见。

See you next time.

拜拜。

Bye.

感谢收听《余史》。

Thanks for listening to the rest is history.

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网址是 restishistorypod.com。

That's restishistorypod.com.