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在公元871年10月，一支维京军队入侵了威尔特郡南部。
In the October '3, a Viking army descended on Southern Wiltshire.
他们的目标是威尔顿镇。
Their target was the town of Wilton.
威尔顿对盎格鲁-撒克逊王室具有深远的象征意义。
Wilton was a place of deep symbolic significance to the Anglo Saxon monarchy.
那里曾有一座女修道院，许多王室成员曾在此出家为修女。
It was the site of a nunnery where many members of the royal family had been nuns.
其中一些人后来被封为圣人。
Some of them had become saints.
当时，英格兰人绝无可能将这片圣地让给入侵的丹麦人。
There was no prospect then that the English would cede this holy place to the invading Danes.
果然，一支盎格鲁-撒克逊军队在威尔顿上方的山丘上列阵，阻击丹麦人的推进。
Sure enough, an Anglo Saxon army drew up on the hill above Wilton to oppose the Danish advance.
指挥官俯视着下方散布的丹麦军队。
The man in charge looked down at the Danes spread out below him.
根据《盎格鲁-撒克逊编年史》的记载，他假装生病，开始干呕和呕吐，说自己病了。
And then according to the Anglo Saxon Chronicle, he feigned himself ill and began to retch and vomit and said that he was sick.
他的肠胃失控了。
His bowels loosened.
他的双腿支撑不住了。
His legs gave way beneath him.
他转过身，逃跑了。
He turned, and he ran.
整个英格兰军队都跟着他逃跑了。
The entire English army went with him.
维京人攻占了威尔顿，并放火将其焚毁。
The Vikings captured Wilton and put it to the torch.
多米尼克·桑布鲁克与我同在。
Dominic Sandbrook with me.
这种行为可不是我们希望在周三看到的，对吧？如果我们在温布利的勇士们遭遇强敌时也这样表现的话。
This is not the kind of behavior that we want to see on Wednesday, is it, from our brave boys on Wembley if they get confronted well,
当他们
when they
面对丹麦人时，但如果是点球大战呢。
get confronted by the Danes, but if they have to face penalty shootout.
这真是一个令人沮丧的开端。
This is such such a depressing way to start.
我的意思是，如果加雷斯·索斯盖特的队员们周三晚上表现得像这样，那绝对是英格兰体育史上最糟糕的时刻，毫无疑问。
I mean, if Gareth Southgate's lads behave like that on Wednesday evening, that would be the worst moment in the history of English sports, surely.
你无法想象哈里·马奎尔会转身逃跑。
You can't imagine Harry Maguire turning and running.
不会。
No.
不会。
No.
不会。
No.
他不会的。
He won't.
装病。
Pretending to be sick.
不会。
No.
但我觉得这确实引起了人们对这一点的关注，我的意思是，我们之前曾邀请阿德里安·查尔斯讨论英苏 rivalry，这显然有着悠久的历史，我们还在第五电台做过一期播客。
But I think it it it does draw attention to the way in which I mean, we've we've so we went on Adrian Charles to talk about Anglo Scottish rivalry, which obviously has a very distinguished pedigree and we've done a podcast on radio five.
是的。
Yeah.
英德 rivalry。
Anglo German rivalry.
但我觉得，在某些方面，这可能是最古老的 rivalry。
But I reckon, in some ways, this is this is the oldest rivalry of all.
我说这个是因为，在参加欧洲杯的所有国家中，英格兰和丹麦拥有最悠久的连续历史。
And I say that because England and Denmark are, of all the the the countries that are playing in the Euros, are the ones with the oldest continuous history.
是的。
Yeah.
但我的意思是，在我们深入探讨这段历史的细节之前，有一个观点，不是吗？英格兰是被创造出来的。
But, I mean, before we get into the elements of that history, I mean, there's an argument, isn't there, that England was created.
我们以前讨论过，英国是作为一种反法的事业而形成的。
I mean, we've talked before about how Britain was created as an anti French kind of enterprise.
你难道不能说，英格兰的存在是因为丹麦人吗？英格兰是作为反丹麦的集合体而诞生的吗？
Couldn't you argue that England exists because of the Danes, that England was created as an anti Danish Yes.
一种合并体？
Sort of conglomeration?
完全正确。
Absolutely.
因为正是丹麦人的入侵彻底摧毁了此前存在的盎格鲁-撒克逊诸王国的拼凑格局，比如诺森布里亚、麦西亚、东盎格利亚，全都覆灭了。
Because because it's, it's Danish invasion that essentially destroys the kind of patchwork of Anglo Saxon kingdoms that had previously existed, say Northumbria, Mercia, East Anglia, all get demolished.
唯一坚持下来的，我很自豪地说，是威塞克斯。
The only one that holds out, I'm proud to say, is Wessex.
威塞克斯王国是我家乡所在。
The kingdom of the Wessex is where I come from.
麦西亚呢？
What about Mercia?
麦西亚也坚持住了，
Mercia held out,
不是吗？
didn't it?
没有。
No.
它的国王逃跑了。
It's king runs away.
好吧。
Alright.
恐怕是这样。
I'm afraid.
我感到害怕。
I'm afraid.
但我是在威尔顿郊外长大的，所以我对这个故事非常熟悉。
But I I grew up just outside Wilton, so that's why I'm very familiar with that particular story.
是的。
Yeah.
还有英雄般的国王阿尔弗雷德、他英勇的儿子爱德华、他英勇的女儿，以及他英勇的孙子，他们领导了对抗维京人的反击，这场反击使他们得以重建韦塞克斯，最终形成英格兰王国。
And it's heroic king Alfred, his heroic son Edward, his heroic daughter, heroic grandson, They they they lead the fight back against the Danes, and the fight back enables them to kind of reconstitute Wessex as the the kingdom of England.
在我们深入这个故事的所有事件之前，维京人不是先到了林迪斯法恩吗？
So before we get into all this and all the events of that story, they rock up at Lindisfarne, don't they, the Vikings?
那是英国历史上最著名的日期之一。
That's the most one of them used to be one of the most famous dates in in English history.
那么，他们是什么时候到达并洗劫修道院的？
So what year what year is that that they they arrive and they ravage the monastery and stuff?
793年。
Seven line three.
在那个时候，作为完全的外行，我想问一个问题。
And at that point so here's my question as a complete and utter nonspecialist.
当我上学时，或者通过我们之前在儿童历史节目里提到的《小瓢虫》系列书籍了解这段历史时，
When I learned about that at school or in this sort of through the ladybird books that we were talking about in the children's history episode,
当时人们经常把‘维京人’和‘丹麦人’这两个词混着用。
The the words Vikings and Danes were used kind of interchangeably.
这些人是来自丹麦的吗？
Are these people from Denmark?
他们是丹麦人吗？
Are they Danes?
这是个非常好的问题，但很难回答，因为早期中世纪历史中的这些身份标签极其模糊，根本难以界定。
That's a really, really good question and one that is very difficult to answer because these kind of markers in early medieval history are incredibly slippery, really, really hard to pin down.
他们被称为北欧人，没错。
So they're described as Northmen, but right.
瑞典人也被称作北欧人，但北欧人也包括丹麦人。
Swedes were called Northmen, but Northmen are also Danes.
在诗歌中，丹麦人常常被称作朱特人。
Danes are so in poetry are often Jutes.
朱特人在《阿尔弗雷德传》中被说成是哥特人。
The Jutes say to Assa, the biography of Alfred are are Goths.
因此，关于这一点存在着极大的混乱。
So there's an incredible sense of confusion about it.
是的。
Yeah.
所以在盎格鲁-撒克逊时期，丹麦人基本上就是泛指北欧人，也就是我们所说的维京人。
So so essentially Danes in in in in the Anglo Saxon period, they are Northmen in general, say what we would call Vikings.
对。
Yeah.
他们是那些袭击法国的武装团伙成员。
They are they're they're they're they're members of the of the warbands that attack France.
所以维京人袭击了法国。
So the Vikings attack France.
所以他们被称为丹麦人。
So they are called Danes.
他们后来成了诺曼人，是奴隶吗？
And they are slaves to become Normans,
不是吗？
don't they?
是的。
Yeah.
所以诺曼人也被 confusingly 地称为丹麦人。
So Normans are also called Danes, confusingly.
在英格兰的语境中，丹麦人是指那些入侵英格兰、瓜分领土，然后获得一片被称为‘丹麦法区’土地的人。
The Danes are, in in the English context, are the people who invade England, who carve it up, who who then get given a chunk of territory that comes to be called the Danelaw.
是的。
Yeah.
他们也是丹麦的居民。
They are also inhabitants of Denmark.
这就是为什么我说这不仅仅是英格兰的事。
And that's why I say that it's not just England.
从某种意义上说，维京时代还催生了一个统一的丹麦王国，这个王国也非常非常古老。
It's also, in a sense, the kind of the the Viking age creates this unitary kingdom of Denmark, which is also very, very ancient.
是的。
Yeah.
这就是为什么这种竞争如此迷人、引人入胜，而且实际上可以追溯到比维京入侵更早的时期，因为当然，丹人在《贝奥武夫》中就已经出现了，是的。
And that's why this kind of rivalry is is is so fascinating, intriguing, and can be and in fact, can be traced back even further than the the than the Viking invasions because, of course, the Danes appear in Beowulf, which Yeah.
给我们讲讲《贝奥武夫》吧。
Tell us about Beowulf in
所以，《贝奥武夫》是古英语中最伟大的史诗，但我们不知道它是什么时候被记录下来的。
the days So so so Beowulf is, the kind of the greatest epic in old English, and we we don't know when it's written down.
因此，存在各种不同的说法。
So there are kind of various alternatives.
也许它非常早。
Maybe it's it's very early.
也许是阿尔弗雷德的时代。
Maybe it's the time of Alfred.
也许是十世纪的时候。
Maybe it's the time of it's in the tenth century.
我们不太确定。
We we we're not sure.
但它实际上并没有涉及任何来自英格兰的人。
But it it doesn't actually feature anyone from England.
但它确实提到了贝奥武夫，他是来自瑞典南部的盖特人，是的。
But it does feature Beowulf, who's a ghet, who from Southern Sweden Yeah.
他去拜访了一位名叫赫罗斯加的国王，他是丹麦人的国王。
Who goes to see a king called Hrothgar, who is the king of the Danes.
在赫罗特。
At Herot.
在赫罗特。
At Herot.
是的
Yeah.
这为托尔金《魔戒》中塞奥顿王的殿堂提供了原型。
Which then provides the model for Tolkien's, the the Hall Of Of Theoden in Lord of the Rings.
椰枣。
Medjools.
但是
But
此外，在《贝奥武夫》中还有一个名叫海格拉克的人物，据法兰克作家格雷戈里·德·托尔所述，他在六世纪入侵并袭击了高卢。
also there's a there's a figure in, Beowulf who who's called Heiglak, who is described by, Gregory of Tor, the Frankish writer, as invading and attacking, Gaul in the sixth century.
好的。
Okay.
所以实际上，丹麦人作为掠夺者、诗人以及与英格兰人互动的根源，
So actually, the roots of
甚至比阿尔弗雷德时代还要古老，也早于林迪斯法恩的袭击。
the Danes as raiders, as poets, as having kind of interaction with the English is is is even older than the age of Alfred and and and even older than the the attack on Lindisfarne.
所以这就是为什么对于任何有历史感的人来说，看到丹麦球迷看台上戴着维京角杯、留着耀眼金黄色胡须的场景，都令人兴奋不已。
So that's why this is, you know, for for anyone with with with a sense of history, the sight of Danish fans in the stands with their their Viking horns and their their brazzling blonde beards.
这非常令人激动。
It's very exciting.
我本来想说，我们的祖先看到这一幕恐怕会感到恐惧，不是吗？
Well, I was about to say our ancestors would have regarded this without a terror, wouldn't they?
因为当然了，他们曾学会对龙船和从船上蜂拥而下的劫掠者心生畏惧。
Because, of course, they learned to dread the sight of the the dragon ships and the raiders pouring off the ships.
但我说到我们的祖先，你知道，已经有很多关于DNA等方面的研究所表明。
But I say our ancestors, but, you know, there's been tons of sort of studies of DNA and stuff.
难道不是吗？这其实更像是一场家族内部的纷争，因为很多人多多少少都有丹麦血统。
Aren't I mean, isn't there a case that basically this is this is a a family a family row, really, because a lot of us are Danes one way or another.
嗯，这确实很有趣。
Well, I mean, interesting.
这一点由纳尔逊勋爵提出，我稍后在播客中会谈到他。
That's a point made by Admiral Nelson, who I shall become to later in the podcast.
是的
Yeah.
他，你知道的，曾在1801年著名的袭击哥本哈根，击沉了丹麦舰队。
He, you know, he famously attacks Copenhagen in eight a one, sinks the Danish fleet.
在那之后，他给丹麦当局写了一封信，称丹麦人是英格兰人的兄弟，这显得他非常富有兄弟情谊。
And then shot John after he's done that, he writes a letter to the Danish authorities in which he he he hails them as the brothers of Englishman, the Danes, which is very fraternal on him
他刚做了那种事，我猜他们肯定原谅他了。
to have just I bet they I bet they forgave him for that then.
是的
Yeah.
但其中确实有一定道理，就像苏格兰人、德国人一样，这不仅仅是敌对的故事。
But but there's a measure of truth to it that that, of course, you know, as with the Scots, as with the Germans, this isn't just a story of rivalry.
是的
Yeah.
这背后也有一种紧密的血缘纽带。
This is also you know, there's this close sense of kinship here.
这就是为什么《贝奥武夫》这部著名的古英语史诗开篇设定在丹麦的原因。
And that's and that's why it it the start of Beowulf, this this famous old English epic, has a Danish setting.
我的意思是，我们的许多听众，尤其是英国听众，可能都知道，如果你从英格兰向东、东北方向走，会遇到很多以‘-thwait’和‘-thorpe’结尾的地名。
Well, I mean, lots of our listeners will probably know, particularly the British listeners, that if you go east in England, if you go north and east, you get all these places that are called Thwait and Thorpe and so on at the end of the name.
这些地方就是丹麦人定居的地方。
And those are the places where the Danes settled.
对吧？
Aren't they?
它们属于丹麦法区的一部分。
They're part of the Yeah.
丹麦法区。
The Danelaw.
它们是曾经属于丹麦的英格兰地区。
They're they're part of England that was Danish.
当然，作为一个对这一切完全外行的门外汉，我想问一下，是不是有两次丹麦人对英格兰的英雄式征服时期？
And, of course, there are two am I right in thinking, again, as an utter nonspecialist and outsider to all this, that there were sort of two heroic periods of Danish conquests in England?
所以有一个发生在阿尔弗雷德时代及其前后的故事。
So there's the one at the time of Alfred and all of that stuff.
然后后来还有克努特，我相信我们会对这个人聊得很有意思。
And then there's later on with, I'm sure we're gonna have some fun with, Cnut.
名字挺有趣的。
The amusingly named.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
所以阿尔弗雷德生活在所谓的‘大北方军队’入侵的背景下，这是一支庞大的武装队伍，首先摧毁了北部的诺森布里亚王国，并占领了约克。
So so Alfred Alfred lives in the context of the invasion of what's called the Great Northern Army, is which this this massive kind of war band which first demolishes the kingdom of Northumbria in the North, occupies York.
所以在北方，你就能感受到非常强烈的丹麦人存在感。
So that's why in the North, you get this this very strong kind of Danish presence and sense.
他们在那里待了数十年，甚至数个世纪。
They're there for for for decades and, in fact, centuries.
这以约克为中心，对吧？
And this is based in York, isn't it?
约克是那种……的首都。
York is the capital of the sort of
是吗？
way?
然后他们又转向东盎格利亚。
They then they then move on East Anglia.
好的。
Okay.
关于这件事还有一段英雄般的故事。
And there's a there's a kind of heroic story around this.
我们在足球比赛中挥舞圣乔治旗，但我们也完全可以使用完全不同的徽章。
We we we wave the flag of Saint George at the football, but we could very easily have a very different emblem.
我们可以把王冠和两支箭作为英格兰的徽章。
We could have a a crown and two arrows as the emblem of England.
对。
Right.
因为在中世纪的大部分时间里，英格兰的主保圣人是东盎格利亚国王圣埃德蒙，他被维京人、丹麦人俘虏，拒绝背弃信仰，拒绝放弃基督教，最终被丹麦人用箭射死。
Because the national saint of of England for much of the Middle Ages was Saint Edmund, who was the king of the East Angles, who was captured by the Vikings, by the Danes, refused to apostatize, refused to give up his Christianity, and was shot to death with with arrows by the Danes.
汤姆，我知道这些是因为它们出自伯纳德·康威尔的作品。
Now, Tom, I know this because it's in Bernard Cornwell.
在《最后的王国》电视剧改编中，有一个精彩的场景，我记得他们把他吊在教堂里之类的，然后
And in the TV adaptation of The Last Kingdom, they have a great scene where he's kind of that I think they hang him up in a church or something, and they
没错。
That's right.
他们不断喊着：‘你的上帝现在在哪？’
They kept saying, you know, where is your god now?
射出去了。
Firing out.
这一点在编年史中有记载吗？
And and this is attested in the chronicles, is it?
这是
This is
是的。
It is.
他们砍下他的头，把头扔进树林里，把身体扔到别处。
And they chop off his head, and they dump his head in in a wood, and they dump his body elsewhere.
他的追随者赶来抢救他的遗体，打算作为圣物供奉，但却找不到他的头。
And his followers come and rescue his body to keep it for for as a relic, but they can't find his head.
然后他们听到树林里传来‘咔、咔、咔’的声音，那不是醉汉的声音。
And then they hear coming from the wood the sound hick, hick, hick, which isn't someone drunk.
那是狼在用拉丁语嚎叫：‘在这儿，在这儿，在这儿。’
It's a wolf crying out in Latin, here, here, here.
哦。
Oh.
而那只狼正在守护着头颅，他们得以将头颅取回并安葬。
And he the wolf is standing guard over the head, and they're able to pick up the head and bury it.
因此，圣埃德蒙成为盎格鲁人的主保圣人，后来也成为逐渐基督教化的丹麦人的主保圣人。
And so Saint Edmund becomes the patron saint of of of the Angles and in due course of the Danes who become Christian in due course and adopt him.
在中世纪的大部分时间里，他都是英格兰的主保圣人。
And he is the the the patron saint of England for much of the Middle Ages.
有许多人至今仍认为他应当是主保圣人。
And there are lots of people who continue to think that he should be the the patron saint.
其中包括杰出的历史学家弗朗西斯·杨博士，他写过一本关于圣埃德蒙的专著，并曾带我去埋葬圣埃德蒙的地点，向我展示了那片如今被用作网球场的遗址——据说圣物至今仍埋藏在那里。
Among them, the the the wonderful historian, doctor Francis Young, who has written an entire book on Saint Edmund and who once took me to bury Saint Edmunds and showed me the site of tennis court where supposedly, the relics remain to this day.
在网球场下面？
Under the tennis court?
他急切地想挖开一探究竟，但贝里圣埃德蒙兹的网球爱好者们对此并不感兴趣。
He's absolutely itching to dig it up, but the the tennis players for Bury Saint Edmunds are less keen on this.
但我希望他能有机会。
But I hope he gets a chance.
不过，无论如何，他当然发了推文，希望英格兰能赢丹麦。
But, anyway, he he he tweeted, of course, I hope England win against Denmark.
但另一方面，如果丹麦赢了我们，我就有借口制作无数圣埃德蒙的梗图了。
But on the other hand, if the Danes beat us, it will give me an excuse to create endless St Edmund memes.
但这非常不祥，因为这
But this is, this is very ominous because this
这是一个英雄式失败的故事。
is a sort of heroic failure story.
这是加扎流泪的经典场景。
This is Gazza's tears crashing out.
我的意思是，埃德蒙输了。
I mean, Edmund lost.
我的意思是，他的头被砍了下来。
I mean, his head was cut off.
但我们最近对阵丹麦的比赛并没有赢，是输了吧？
But we didn't in our most recent match against Denmark, we lost, didn't we?
我们以一比零输了，
We lost one nil,
我想是的。
I think.
嗯，那是一场友谊赛吧，我记得？
Well, it was a friendly, think, wasn't it?
那场是友谊赛，还是预选赛之类的？
Was it a friendly, or was that a qualifier or something?
我记不清了。
I can't remember.
所以我们在西德蒙德被射杀时，输给了维京人，输给了丹麦人。
So we lost against the Vikings, against the Danes when Sid Edmund got shot to death.
但后来我们最终赢了，因为丹麦人都皈依了基督教，把他奉为圣人。
But we then ultimately won because the Danes all got converted to Christianity and accepted him as a saint.
所以我觉得这是一个积极的信号。
So I see it as a positive sign.
我认为，圣埃德蒙在天上注视着我们，一切都会好起来的。
I think I think that with with with Saint Edmund looking down from heaven, everything's gonna be okay.
这正是我想问你的。
This is what I was going to ask you.
据我回忆，当年参与杀害埃德蒙并率领北方大军的那些人中，古思鲁姆是个非常忧郁、沉闷的人，最终成了北方大军的领袖。
So the fellows who are involved with the killing of Edmund and are leading the Great Northern Army, as I recall from my the last kingdom watching, Guthrum is is part who's a very sort of lugubrious, melancholy fellow and ends up being the leader of the great northern army.
不是吗？
Doesn't he?
或者至少是最著名的那位，是的。
Or at least the most famous Yeah.
可以说是这些人物中最出名的。
Sort of the most famous of these
还有一个名叫休巴的人，名字也很出色。
sort There's also guy with the brilliant name of Hubba.
休巴。
Hubba.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这是英格兰历史上最棒的入侵者名字了。
I think it's the best the best name of an invader of England ever.
是叫休伯德吗？因为在伯纳德·康沃尔的小说里，他被改名为休伯德。
Is it Hubbard or because in Bernard Cornwell, he's renamed Hubbard.
所以‘休伯德’听起来更有趣。
So Hubbard is much funnier.
‘休伯德’确实更有趣。
Hubbard is funnier.
所以格斯鲁姆，这难道不是一件非凡的事吗？
So Guthrum, this is an extraordinary thing, isn't it?
他抵达英格兰时，当然，我正戴着历史学家的帽子。
He arrives in England, and and, you know, sort of putting the historian's hat firmly on.
你可以想象，维京入侵显然存在一种拉锯战。
You can sort of imagine there's obviously a push pull with the Viking invasions.
他们因为斯堪的纳维亚地区土地竞争等原因被驱逐，但同时也被英格兰的财富所吸引。
They're driven out because of competition for land or whatever in Scandinavia, but they're also drawn by the wealth of England.
他抵达后，最终还是接受了当地的宗教，对吧？
He arrives, and he adopts the local religion eventually, doesn't he?
我的意思是，阿尔弗雷德是强迫他这样做的吗？
I mean, does Alfred basically force him to do that?
事情就是这样发生的吗？
Is that what happens?
威塞克斯王国在压倒性的力量面前坚持了下来。
So the kingdom of Wessex holds out against kind of overwhelming force.
维京人行动迅速、极具侵略性，而且对西撒克逊人来说，他们显得背信弃义，因为他们根本不会遵守誓言。
And the Vikings are fleet aggressive and they're treacherous or at least to the West Saxons, they seem treacherous because they don't basically hold to oaths.
是的
Yeah.
他们背信弃义的终极表现，就是在圣诞节日的第十二夜，袭击了阿尔弗雷德正在举行宫廷的奇彭纳姆。
And the ultimate mark of their treachery is that they attack Chippenham where Alfred is holding court on twelfth night, so during the festival of Christmas.
这绝对不是一件蠢事。
And this is very much not the dumb thing.
这简直就像是红牌犯规一样。
It's it's it's a kind of red card offense, really.
但你知道，丹麦人根本不按规则出牌，所以他们不在乎。
But if I you know, the Danes aren't playing by the rules, so they don't care.
于是阿尔弗雷德逃到了阿塞尔尼的沼泽地。
So that's when Alfred flees to the marshes of Athelny.
他烤糊了蛋糕。
He burns the cakes.
他招募了士兵。
He recruits men.
他率领一支军队出征。
He leads an army out.
他击败了丹麦人，并签订了一项条约，规定古思鲁姆将皈依基督教。
He defeats the the the Danes, and he draws up a treaty whereby Guthrum will become a Christian.
他接受了基督教名字埃塞尔斯坦，并获得了后来被称为丹麦法区的地区，大致包括东盎格利亚和林肯郡。
He takes on the the the Christian name of Aethelstan, and he gets what comes to be called the Damelaw, which is basically East Anglia, Lincolnshire.
如果你想象一条从默西河延伸至泰晤士河的分界线，他得到了这条线以东的区域。
And if you imagine Mercy with a line drawn from the Mersey down to the Thames, he gets the eastern half of that.
阿尔弗雷德在取得进攻胜利后，通过沿默西河至泰晤士河一线建造一系列被称为‘堡’的设防市镇，巩固了自己的优势。
And Alfred then, having won in in in attack, then kind of consolidates his lead by building a great line of what are called burrs, kind of fortified market towns, again, along that line from the Mersey down to the Thames.
维京人无法突破这条防线。
And the Vikings can't really break through that.
最终，他们不断冲击这道坚固的防御工事，最终自己被耗尽了力量。
And in due course, they kind of smash themselves and smash themselves against this mighty line of defense.
是的。
Yeah.
然后，就像周六晚上一样，英格兰发动进攻，阿尔弗雷德的女儿、麦西亚的女领主，我认为她是英国历史上最英勇的女性政治人物，她的兄弟爱德华——西撒克逊的国王——也一同发动进攻。
And then, rather like on Saturday night, England go on the attack, And who is Alfred's daughter, the lady of the Mercians, I think the most heroic female political figure in in English history, her brother Edward, who's the king of the West Saxons, they'd go on the attack.
他们最终征服了亨伯河以南的整个英格兰。
They they they end up conquering all of England South Of The Humber.
接着是阿尔弗雷德的孙子征服了诺森布里亚，并从丹麦人手中夺回了这片土地。
And then it's who is Alfred's grandson, then conquers Northumbria and takes it back from the Danes.
这实际上就是英格兰的形成过程。
And it's it's not a kind of, effectively, this is the this is the making of England.
随后，英格兰成为一个统一的王国。
England then becomes a United Kingdom.
丹麦人曾一度卷土重来。
The Danes do make a comeback.
他们重新夺回了约克。
They recapture York.
他们实际上占领了亨伯河以南的大片土地，但最终被击退了。
They actually capture quite a large swathe of of land South Of The Humber, but they get pushed back.
到埃德加这位侄子继位时，英格兰已经早早实现了统一。
And by the time of that that nephew Edgar becomes king Yeah.
英格兰早早实现了统一。
England is precociously unified.
埃德加坚持推行一种统一的货币体系。
And what Edgar does is to insist on a kind of unitary currency.
因此，所有的银币都直接由王室掌控，这种对税收和货币的控制程度，在西欧是独一无二的。
So all the silver comes directly under royal control, and that's a kind of degree of, control over taxation, control over money that is absolutely unique in Western Europe.
唯一也在这么做的是西班牙南部的安达卢斯和拜占庭帝国，但其他任何继承罗马帝国的王国都没有做到这一点。
The only other empires that are doing it are, al Andalus in the in the South Of Spain and the Byzantine Empire, but no other kind of, you know, successor kingdom to the Roman Empire is doing it.
这使得英格兰显得富裕。
And and this makes England seem rich.
这使得它显得强大，但有点像深夜独自走在小巷里，钻石项链从后口袋露出来——因为你知道，劫匪们其实都在爱尔兰。
It makes it seem strong, but it's a bit like kind of, I don't know, walking down a dark alley with a a kind of diamond necklace sticking out of your back pocket because, you know, the muggers, well, they're they're in Ireland.
维京人建立了都柏林，即‘黑池’。
They said the Vikings have founded Dublin, the Black Pool.
都柏林意思是黑池。
Dublin means Black Pool.
但他们也当然位于北海对岸。
But they're also, of course, across the North Sea.
所以他们仍然盯着英格兰。
So they're still got their eyes on England.
是的。
Yeah.
在埃德加儿子的统治下，愚昧无知，没错。
And under the reign of Edgar's son, unread, ill advised Yeah.
丹麦人卷土重来。
The the Danes come back.
在谈这个之前，汤姆，你略过了一件我觉得相当可耻的事，那就是爱德华与丹麦人之间的那场大战。
Before we come to that, Tom, you skated over something I thought pretty shamefully, which is that the great battle that and Ed Edward, I think, fight against the Danes.
实际上是埃德雷德和他的贵族们。
It's actually it's it's and her thanes.
爱德华与此事毫无关系
Edward has nothing to do
他来晚了。
with it.
他后来才出现吗？
He pitches up late.
他是不是后来才到场的？
Does he does he pitch up afterwards or something?
是在伍尔弗汉普顿，对吧？
It's in Wolverhampton, isn't it?
这是场战役
It's it's the battle
发生在泰顿霍尔，有些人说是韦登斯菲尔德，这两个地方是伍尔弗汉普顿的不同区域。
of Tetonhall or some people say Weddensfield, so those are two different sort of parts of Wolverhampton.
我更喜欢说泰顿霍尔，因为我的祖父母曾经住在泰顿霍尔。
One I like to say Tetonhall because my grandparents used to live in Tetonhall.
但Weddensfield更浪漫，因为它是
But Weddensfield is more romantic because it's
显然是Wodenfield。
obviously Well, it's Wodenfield.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yes.
维京人发动了大规模进攻，入侵林肯郡，夺回圣徒的遗物，然后将它们埋葬在格洛斯特，作为某种精神上的《星球大战》，用超自然力量打造一道铁穹，彻底保护它。
And the Vikings so the Vikings have have launched a great so has has invaded Lincolnshire to grab back the relics of of Saint, which he then buries in Gloucester to serve as a kind of spiritual Star Wars, an iron dome to absolutely protect it with supernatural power.
丹麦人对此非常愤怒，于是发动了大规模入侵。
And the the Danes are so cross about this that they then launch a massive invasion.
他们洗劫并焚烧。
They they they loot and and burn.
当他们途经伍尔弗汉普顿——或至少是未来伍尔弗汉普顿的所在地——时，在一条河边遭到盎格鲁-撒克逊人的袭击，被漫天飞舞的长矛击倒，全军覆没。
As they're going back through Wolverhampton, or at least the future site of Wolverhampton, they get attacked at a river and they perish beneath a rain of spears, the Anglo Saxon.
编年史太棒了。
Chronicles great.
我的意思是，很多客场球迷去打仗时都会遇到这种情况。
I mean, that happens to a lot of visiting fans when they go to war.
公平地说，会发生什么呢？
What happens to be fair?
所以，汤姆，在这个时候，丹麦人和英格兰人，英格兰人已经开始把自己视为英格兰人了，对吧？
So, Tom, at this point, right, the Danes and the English, the English have started to see themselves as the English, haven't they?
可以说，他们是相对于丹麦人而言的。
It's kind of in opposition to the Danes, I suppose.
他们有什么不同？
How different are they?
因为在最著名的虚构版本中，比如伯纳德·康威尔的小说，有一种明显的文化冲突：异教的丹麦人喜欢喝酒、享乐和杀人，而英格兰人则更严肃虔诚，专注于上帝、修道院之类的事情。
Because in the the let's say, the the most famous fictional iteration of this, which is now the Bernard Cornwell books, there is this sense of a kind of culture clash between the pagan Danes, who like, you know, drinking and and having fun and killing people, and the slightly more sort of serious and pious English who are all about kind of god and and monasteries and stuff.
这种差异是真实存在的文化分歧，还是他们其实会把彼此视为有着相似根源、相似习惯的同胞？
Is that is that rooted in a genuine cultural difference, or would they have recognized one another as kind of brethren, if you like, with with actually similar roots, similar habits, all that sort of stuff?
那答案是什么呢？
What what's the answer there?
在阿尔弗雷德及其后裔作战的战争期间，我认为确实存在一种差异感。
The during during the the the wars that that Alfred and his, heirs fight, I think there is a sense of of difference.
特别是在阿尔弗雷德时代，在古思鲁姆及其追随者受洗之前，这种差异更为明显。
And it it it's much greater during the time of Alfred before Guthrum and his followers get baptized.
但即使他们受洗之后，他们仍然被视为异类。
But even once they've been baptized, they are kind of, alien figures.
但他们适应得非常快。
But they they adapt very, very quickly.
他们变得非常虔诚，因为他们看到基督教的上帝基本上击败了他们。
They, you know, they they become devout devoutly Christian because they see that the Christian God has has basically defeated them.
他们受到了更强大的西撒克逊王权的文化和经济影响。
And they come under the cultural influence and the economic influence of the much stronger West Saxon monarchy.
我有一枚非常珍贵的硬币，是我收藏的，它是在罗马发现的一堆硬币中的一枚，由一位来自东盎格利亚的丹麦人带去朝圣的。
So I've got a wonderful coin, which I I own, which was found, in a in a pile of of, coins in Rome taken there by, a a Dane from East Anglia on pilgrimage.
而且这是个赝品。
And it's a fake.
这是维京人，具体说是丹麦人在丹麦法区制造的赝品，目的是模仿爱德华——阿尔弗雷德之子——发行的硬币。
It's it's a it's a it's a fake made by the Viking but made by the Danes in the Danelaw to to simulate one of the coins stamped by Edward Alfred's son.
哇。
Wow.
所以你在那里看到的是显而易见的。
So what you see there is evident
他们自己的赝品。
their own fakes.
是的。
Yeah.
然后他前往罗马朝圣。
And then he's going on pilgrimage to Rome.
所以他已经变得很英格兰化了，不仅接受了英格兰的宗教，而且在经济上也处于从属地位。
So he's he's, you know, he's he's become English to the degree that he's adopted the English religion, and he is is kind of, you know, economically subordinate.
所以，英格兰的文化影响非常深远。
So so the influence, the cultural influence of England is is is very great.
话虽如此，你还是会看到盎格鲁-撒克逊道德家们对丹麦人的习惯大加抨击，比如画眼线。
I mean, having said that, you do get fulminations from from Anglo Saxon moralists complaining about Danish habits, which include wearing eyeliner.
哦，这可不好。
Oh, that's bad.
剃掉后脑勺的头发。
Shaving the back shaving the back of your head.
所以维京人不能留莫西干头。
So no mullets for Vikings.
没错。
Right.
更糟糕的是
And worst of all
是的。
Yeah.
每个星期六都洗澡，当星期六来临时。
Having having baths every Saturday when Saturday comes.
所以这算是，而且这真是
So that's sort of And that's The
眼线作为一种沐浴方式，我觉得非常神经质。
eyeliner sort of a bath seems very neuromanic to me.
嗯，非常女性化。
Well, very feminine.
在那些阳刚正直的人看来，这是女性化的极致表现。
It's regarded as the height of effeminacy by the the manly and upright
盎格鲁-撒克逊人。
Anglo Saxons.
是的。
Yeah.
我从不觉得丹麦人女性化。
I never thought the Danes as effeminate.
我的意思是，如果丹麦听众听到我一直认为丹麦人非常充满活力、阳刚，他们会很高兴的。
I mean, if the Danish listeners will be pleased to hear that I always have thought of the Danes as very vigorous, virile kind of
是的。
Yeah.
显然，还有很多值得深入探讨的地方。
There's obviously there's there's a lot to tease out
当然。
there, obviously.
对。
Yeah.
我想，尤其是我那充满挣扎的潜意识里。
Not least in my tortured subconscious, I suppose.
所以我想问你一个问题，关于丹麦法区。
So let me ask you a question about the Danelaw.
丹麦法区的人，比如说他们是第二代或第三代，他们是否意识到自己的身份？
The the Danelaw, are the people there conscious of themselves let's say they're second or third generation.
他们仍然认为自己是丹麦人，还是认为自己是英国人，你觉得呢？
Do they still think of themselves as Danes, or do they think of themselves as English, would you say?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得是的。
I think so.
嗯，某种程度上吧。
Well, kind of.
或者这个问题太简单了？
Or is that too simplistic a question?
我的意思是，这种认同感会随着代际更替逐渐淡化，但显然，丹麦语对地名的影响依然明显。
I I mean, it it tends to fade over the generations, but but, obviously, the the impact of of spoken Danish is evident in in the place names.
是的。
Yes.
而且我
And I
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我认为这种影响会持续相当长一段时间。
think it it does last for quite a for quite a while.
但我的意思是，丹麦定居者接受埃德蒙作为他们的守护神，这一过程确实让情况变得复杂。
But it I mean, it's certainly complicated by the way that Danish settlers come to accept, say, Edmond as their Yeah.
他们的守护神。
Their patron.
所以这很复杂。
So it is complex.
而且，甚至可以说，丹麦人越来越多地重返此地，这进一步表明了情况的复杂性。
And even you know, and and it's it it it a further sign of how complex it is is that when under, you start to get the the Danes coming back in increasing numbers Yeah.
他们是作为基督徒来的。
They are doing it as Christians.
他们已经皈依基督教，但这并没有阻止他们。
They've become Christian, and it doesn't stop them.
无准备者。
The unready.
我记得在我的《小蜜蜂》读物里，讲的是英格兰的国王和女王，或者叫盎格鲁-撒克逊国王之类的。
I I remember in my ladybird, kings and queens of England or Anglo Saxon kings or whatever it was called.
他表现得非常糟糕。
He came out very poorly.
没我们几周前讨论的约翰王那么差，当时我们一致认为，用你的话说，他是个混蛋。
Not as bad as king John that we did a few weeks ago, who we agreed was, in in your words, a shit.
但埃塞尔雷德二世，他简直就是国王中的特蕾莎·梅，不是吗？
But Ethera the Unready was he he was a he was the Theresa May of kings, wasn't he?
他基本上是在一个危机接一个危机中手足无措。
He was he was just floundering from crisis to crisis, basically.
那到底哪里出了问题？
And what goes wrong there?
为什么丹麦人能如此大规模地卷土重来？
How come the Danes sweep back in such numbers?
关于他有一本非常出色的传记。
There is a wonderful biography of him.
我的意思是，这种传记是广义上的，因为按照利维·罗奇的说法，你无法真正以现代方式写一部传记，但他确实努力进行了修正主义式的重新解读。
I mean, biography in the looser sense because you can't really write a biography in in the modern sense by Levi Roche, which is does a good job attempt at revisionism.
基本上，他手里的牌非常差，但相对于其他人，他却极其富有。
Basically, he's dealt a very tough hand, and he's incredibly rich relative to everyone else.
因此，他显然做了一件明智的事。
And so he obviously he does a sensible thing.
他试图用金钱打发他们。
He tries to buy them off.
丹麦金。
Davengeld.
这就是著名的丹麦金。
That's the that's the famous Davengeld.
是的。
Yeah.
但问题是，正如吉卜林后来指出的，如果你支付丹麦金，就会有越来越多的人前来。
But the problem is, as Kipling goes on to point out, that if you pay Davengeld, then, you know, more and more people will come.
最终导致王国被征服。
And it ends up with a situation where the the the kingdom gets gets conquered.
逃往诺曼底，后返回，去世。
Flees to Normandy, comes back, dies.
他由儿子埃德蒙·铁边继位，这位可是个真正的猛攻中锋，因此
He's succeeded by his son, Edmund Ironside, who is, you know, proper storming center forward, hence
他的，是的。
his Yeah.
好名字。
Great name.
他的绰号。
His nickname.
但他和克努特打得难分胜负。
But he he he kind of fights to a standstill with with Canute.
克努特继位后，据说死在了厕所里。
Canute inherit he he then dies supposedly on the on the toilet.
据说在这一时期，有很多人是在厕所里去世的。
Quite a lot of people supposedly die on the toilet in this period.
这几乎成了谈论维京人时的一个固定主题。
That's about this is a theme of whenever you talk about Vikings.
嗯，确实是。
Well, is.
我想我已经在这档播客里提到过克努特的祖父哈拉尔·蓝牙两次了。
Well, I've already mentioned Knut's grandfather, Harold Bluetooth twice, I think, on this this podcast.
这个人不仅以蓝牙技术的命名来源而闻名，而且还在如厕时被弓箭手射中了屁股。
That's the guy who, first of all, famously gives his name to Bluetooth technology, but also ends up being shot in the ass by, by an archer while he's having a dump.
是的。
Yeah.
但哈拉尔·蓝牙也很重要，因为他是第一位基督教国王。
But Harold Bututh is also significant because he's the first Christian king.
对。
Right.
他是第一位皈依基督教的国王。
He's the first king who converts to Christianity.
他的儿子斯文·福克比尔德，就是那个带领我们本播客开头提到的对威尔顿发动袭击的人。
And and so so Svein Fortbeard, his son, who's this who is actually the guy who leads the attack on Wilton that we began this podcast with.
那就是斯文·福克比尔德。
That's Svein Fortbeard.
没错。
Right.
他们表面上是基督徒，但这并没有减少他们的恐怖程度。
Are supposedly Christian, but that doesn't stop them being any the less terrifying.
他们是北海庞大帝国的主宰。
They are masters of a huge North Sea empire.
我说得对吗？
Am I right?
这个帝国看起来是北欧最强大的国家之一，甚至可能是最强大的。
An empire that looks like one of the most potent states in Northern Europe, if not the most potent.
是的
Yeah.
所以蓝牙技术之所以以他命名，其中一个原因是，在丹麦耶林有一块石碑，哈拉尔蓝牙在上面刻下铭文，吹嘘自己如何将人们团结在一起。
So so Bluetooth one of the reasons why Bluetooth technology is named after it is that that, there's this stone at Yelling in Denmark where Harold Bluetooth puts up this inscription where he talks about he he boasts about the way that he has joined people together.
他所说的，指的是将南挪威、南瑞典都统一起来。
And by that, he means, you know, South Norway, South Sweden, brought them all together.
然后，他的儿子、孙子接着征服了英格兰。
And he then, you know, his son, his grandson then move on to conquer England as well.
让我们来回答许多听众会问的问题，那就是卡努特和海浪的故事。
And let's let's ask the question that a lot of listeners will be asking, which is about Canute and the waves.
对。
Yes.
所以
So
我们有迈克尔·F·K，对吧？
We've got we've got Michael f k a, haven't we?
你明白了吗？
Have you got that?
我明白了。
I have.
Michael f k a 表示非常期待听到关于卡努特承认英格兰潮水不可抗拒之力的类比。
Michael f k a says very much looking forward to the Canute acknowledges the inexorable power of the English tide analogy.
是的。
Yes.
但不幸的是，卡努特的故事总是被描绘成克努特是个发誓要命令潮水退去的傻瓜，结果被海水冲走了，你
But, unfortunately, well, Canute's this is always painted as Knut is an oath and a fool who is washed, you
知道，这其实是
know It's it's
恰恰相反。
the opposite.
完全错了，不是吗？
Completely wrong, isn't it?
恰恰相反。
It's the opposite.
实际上，那些廷臣才是傻瓜，而他才是智者。
Actually So so courtiers who are the fools, and he is the wise man.
所以，克努特真的很可怕。
So so Knut is terrifying.
他很年轻。
He he's young.
他很刻薄。
He's mean.
他极其贪婪。
He's incredibly rapacious.
一旦成为英格兰国王，他就征收100%的税率。
Once he's become king of England, he imposes a 100% tax rate.
这确实很严苛。
That's that's harsh.
这使得丹尼斯·希利看起来像个减税者了。
That sort of makes Dennis Healy look like a tax cutter.
他让小人物叫苦连天。
He makes the pip squeak.
是的。
Yes.
英格兰一年的全部收入都进了他的金库，但他后来稍微缓和了一些。
The whole revenue of an a single year in England goes into his coffers, but he then slightly calms down.
下次就只有90%了。
A mere 90% next time.
基督教和盎格鲁-撒克逊君主制的传统既威严又时髦。
Christianity and the traditions of Anglo Saxon monarchy are are prestigious and stylish.
你知道，他想融入其中。
You know, he wants to be a part of it.
我想这就像彼得·舒梅切尔加盟曼联一样。
I guess it's Peter Schmeichel coming to Manchester United.
扬·穆尔比初到英格兰时带着浓重的丹麦口音，但因效力利物浦而最终变成了英格兰本地口音
Jan Mulby, who arrived in England speaking with a very strong Danish accent and ended with a scout accent because he played for Liverpool
所有这些正是我所喜欢看到的。
all those So that's that's kind of what I like to see.
那是克努特。
That's canute.
这个类比。
The analogy.
是的。
Yeah.
他成为了一位基督教君主的典范。
And he becomes a model of Christian kingship.
因此，他慷慨地资助了威尔顿修道院。
So he actually he endows Wilton prodigiously.
那里有非常精美的插图，描绘了他和王后共同完成这些善举。
There's kind of wonderful illustrations of of him and his queen doing that.
他退潮的故事，是他对一个奉承者的回应，那人说他无所不能。
And the story of him, holding back the tide, it it's his response to a flatterer who says that you're capable of doing anything.
他说：不，我做不到。
And he says, no, but I can't.
于是他命令他的朝臣下到海边，把王座放在沙滩上，举起手来阻止潮水，当然潮水还是涌了上来。
So he orders his court to come down, and he puts the, the throne by the on the beach and he holds his hand up to stop the tide and of course the tide comes in.
这想说明的是，人类与上帝相比是多么的渺小。
And the the point is about the inadequacy of human beings compared to God.
所以，基本上，他在某种程度上被英格兰化了。
And so so basically, he becomes, I I suppose, that extent, anglicized.
他后来有两个儿子，哈罗德·哈雷福特，是的。
He then has two sons, Harold Harefoot Yeah.
还有哈撒克努特。
And Hathaknut.
然后你就进入了
And then you're into
他们
They're
他们非常无聊。
to They're incredibly boring.
他们几乎什么都没做。
They they kind of don't really do anything.
然后他传位给忏悔者爱德华。
He then gets seeded by Edward Edward the confessor.
忏悔者爱德华传位给哈罗德·戈德温森。
Edward the confessor gets seeded by Harold Godwinson.
接着是征服者威廉。
Then you have William the Conqueror.
在征服者威廉统治下
And it's under William the Conqueror
是的。
Yeah.
在十月，也就是黑斯廷斯战役三年后，丹麦人发起了最后一次入侵尝试——北方的叛军邀请了另一位丹麦国王斯文前来，他率军沿亨伯河而上，占领了约克。
In October, so three years after the Battle of Hastings, that you get the final Danish attempt at an invasion when, another Danish king called Svein is invited over by rebels in the North, comes up the Humber, occupies York.
威廉率军前进。
William advances.
叛军逃跑了。
The rebels flee.
丹麦人陷入孤立，只好回到他们的船上。
The Danes are kind of stranded, they get back in their ships.
他们像祖先一样再次前往东盎格利亚。
They go down to East Anglia again as their forebears had done.
他们在东盎格利亚大肆劫掠。
They ravage East Anglia.
征服者威廉支付给他们丹麦金。
William the Conqueror pays them Daingold.
他贿赂他们，让他们
He bribes them to
走开。
go away.
是吗？
Does he?
我之前不知道关于征服者威廉的这些事。
I didn't know that about William the Conqueror.
是的。
Yeah.
他确实这么做了。
He does.
他们启航离去，事情就此结束。
They sail away, and that is basically it.
为什么他们再也没回来过？
Why don't they come back ever again?
我猜他们已经被充分基督教化了，因此这种传统开始逐渐消退。
I suppose they've been sufficiently Christianized that that that tradition is starting to fade.
成为维京人的传统正在逐渐消失。
The tradition of becoming a Viking is starting to fade.
但更重要的是，威廉所建立的诺曼君主的强大力量，以及各王国之间一种基督教共同性的认同。
But it it's also the the strength and the power of the Norman monarch that that William establishes, and the sense of a kind of Christian commonality between all the various kingdoms.
好的。
Okay.
所以我认为，如果我们谈论盎格鲁-丹麦关系，那简直就是一场分两半的游戏。
So I think that if we're talking Anglo Danish relations, it's very much a game of two halves.
我正要说呢。
Well, I about to say
上半场，是丹麦人把沙子扬到英格兰人的脸上。
first half, it's it's the Danes kicking sand in the faces of the English.
那下半场呢？
So what's half
汤姆，你觉得比分是多少？
What's the score would you say, Tom?
我觉得是三比一，丹麦领先，我觉得。
I think it's three well, it's three one to to Denmark, I think.
三比一，丹麦领先。
Three one to Denmark.
这可不妙。
That's bad.
如果周三半场是三比一，我该好好反省；但如果是比一比三，我该好好反省。
If it's three one a halftime on Wednesday, I should be deeply well, if it's one three, I should be deeply disciplined.
这是一场上下半场各不相同的比赛。
It's a game of two halves.
让我们看看下半场会发生什么。
Let's see what happens in the second half.
我们很快再见。
We'll see you soon.
他们回到更衣室了。
Back they go to the dressing rooms.
加雷斯·索斯盖特可以谈谈，我们看看中场休息后情况是否会改变。
Gareth Southgate can have a word, and we'll see, if the picture changes after the break.
一会儿见。
See you in a minute.
欢迎回来，接下来是历史部分。
Welcome back to the rest is history.
对于在本播客前半小时感到困惑的国际听众，我应该说明一下：这是一档关于英丹关系的播客，旨在配合2021年周三晚上在温布利球场举行的欧洲杯半决赛——英格兰对阵丹麦。
For our international listeners who are baffled after the first half hour of this podcast, I should say that, this is a podcast about Anglo Danish relations to tie in with the semifinal of Euro twenty twenty being played in 2021 at Wembley between England and Denmark on Wednesday evening.
汤姆和我都非常兴奋。
Tom and I are very excited.
英格兰几乎所有人都非常激动，对吧，汤姆？
Everybody in England basically is very overexcited, aren't they, Tom?
我猜丹麦人也一样。
And I assume everybody in Denmark too.
在第一段‘历史半场’结束后，丹麦以3比1领先，这源于汤姆·霍兰对维京时代丹麦人多次入侵英格兰的描述。
The Danes are leading after the first historical half, three one, after, Tom Holland's description of their various assaults on on England in the Viking Age.
汤姆，我觉得我们应该跳到未来了，对吧？
Tom, I think we're gonna leap forward in time, aren't we now?
我不记得丹麦人在十三、十四、十五世纪有什么作为。
I'm not aware of the Danes doing anything in the sort of thirteenth, fourteenth, fifteenth century.
你记得吗？
Are you?
我的意思是，他们肯定有
I mean, they must have been
其实没有，但也没什么值得讨论的。
not really, but Nothing nothing worth discussing.
我觉得
I think
我们干脆直接跳过去吧。
we should leap right forward.
在进入斯图亚特王朝之前，你还有什么要说的吗？
Do you have anything to say before we get to the Stuart era or not?
没有。
No.
我们跳过吧，直接讲詹姆斯一世。
Cut let's let's cut let's cut to let's cut to James the first.
詹姆斯六世。
James the sixth.
这真是典型的上下半场。
It is the it is the proverbial game of two halves.
所以我做了一些研究，关于丹麦的安妮，她是一个非凡的人物。
So I have done a bit of digging into the story of Anne of Denmark, who is an extraordinary figure.
丹麦的安妮嫁给了苏格兰的詹姆斯六世，他后来成为英格兰的詹姆斯一世。
So Anne of Denmark marries James the sixth of Scotland, who becomes James the first of England.
她是丹麦弗雷德里克二世的第二个女儿。
She's the second daughter of Frederick the second of Denmark.
在早期现代时期，丹麦是一个相当强大的军事力量。
So the sort of early modern period is quite a Denmark's a pretty sizable, you know, sort of military power.
而且它还是路德宗的，对吧？
And also it's Lutheran, isn't it?
是的。
It is.
而且
And
所以路德宗的王国并不多。
and so there aren't that many Lutheran kingdoms.
没错。
No.
新教王国当然更少了。
There's certainly not many Protestant kingdoms.
所以这才是关键。
And so that's the key.
我的意思是，对瑞典和丹麦来说，这确实是黄金时代。
I mean, these these are great days for Sweden and Denmark, actually.
他们实际上是在争夺对波罗的海等地的控制权。
They're really sort of fighting for control of the the Baltic and stuff.
但如果你是新教徒，与丹麦结盟是非常值得争取的。
But a Danish alliance is much to be prized if you're a Protestant.
苏格兰的詹姆斯六世在安妮14岁时娶了丹麦的安妮。
So James the sixth is married to of Scotland is married to Anne of Denmark when she's 14.
起初，他们的关系还不错。
And at first, they get on pretty well.
但就在他即将成为英格兰国王之前，一切都开始恶化了。
But just before he's about to become king of England, it all starts to go wrong.
所以，他们第一次争吵的原因非常奇怪，是因为儿子的监护权问题。
So they first fall out bizarrely because, over the custody of their son.
他们并没有离婚，但仍然因为监护权问题产生了分歧。
So they're not divorced, but they still have fallen out over the custody.
因为据称在苏格兰，长子会被送走抚养。
Because apparently, the practice in Scotland is the eldest son is given away to be brought up.
她只是觉得，这就像古代人把孩子送去寄宿学校一样。
And she just thought, you know, this is like a sort of ancestor of people sending their kids away to boarding Yeah.
那种寄宿学校简直太残酷了，比如查尔斯王子两岁就被送去那里。
That's sort of incredibly vicious boarding schools like Prince Charles at the age of two or something.
安娜·丹麦对此感到愤怒，因为她的儿子亨利被交给马尔伯爵抚养，我认为这种事造成了无法弥合的裂痕。
And Anna Denmark is outraged that her son Henry is given to the earl of Ma to be and and that sort of I think that kind of creates a bit of a rift that never really heals.
就在詹姆斯前往英格兰之前，发生了一起被称为‘戈韦里阴谋’的事件，那两个家伙——我想是两个人——密谋刺杀詹姆斯。
So then just before James comes to England, there's a thing called the Gowrie conspiracy where these two guys I think the two guys, they they have a plot to kill chains.
在十六世纪晚期的苏格兰，这种事屡见不鲜。
This is happening all the time in Scotland in the late, in the late sixteenth century.
他们被詹姆斯的随从杀死了。
And, they're killed by his attendants.
于是，他合理地想要赶走那两人的姐妹——她们是他妻子的侍女。
And then not unreasonably, he wants to get rid of their sisters who are her ladies in waiting, his wife's ladies in waiting.
他说：‘显然，在她们试图谋杀我之后，她们不能再继续担任侍女了。'
So he says, well, obviously, her sis their sisters can't stay on as ladies in waiting after they've tried to kill me.
女王说：有道理。
The queen Fair enough.
你不这么认为吗？
Don't you?
安娜·丹麦对此感到愤怒，并开始绝食抗议。
Anna Denmark is outraged by this, and she stages a hunger strike.
她躺在床上。
She stays in bed.
她不肯下床，因为她和他们关系很亲密。
She won't get out of bed because she's really close to them.
最终，詹姆斯做出让步，雇了一名杂技演员，派他去逗她开心，试图引她下床。
And, eventually, James modifies it by hiring an acrobat and sending the acrobat to entertain her and kind of lure her out of bed.
有效果吗？
Does it work?
确实有效。
It does work.
我的意思是，绝食抗议结束了，但我认为他们之间仍有隔阂，因为他们去了英格兰。
I mean, the hunger strike is over, but I think there's still bad blood because they go to England.
他们建立了一个家庭。
They establish a household.
过了一段时间，他给她发了条消息。
He sends a message to her after a while.
他说他不喜欢她的英国式家庭生活。
He says he doesn't like her her English household.
他给她发了条消息。
He sends her a message.
陛下对她持续的固执感到极为愤慨，我觉得这是一条你不想收到的婚姻信息。
His majesty takes her continued perversity very heinously, which I think is it's a it's a marital message you don't wanna receive.
她难道不是只是固执地……
And doesn't doesn't she she just dog
或者什么的？
or something?
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Exactly.
如果这是你第一次收听这个播客，那么死狗是我们播客的一个主题。
Dead dogs for if anyone has received this podcast for the first time, dead dogs are a theme of our podcast.
詹姆斯有一只狗，叫朱威尔或者乔勒。
And James had a dog called either either Jewel or Jowler.
这两个名字差别挺大的，我觉得。
They're quite different names, I think.
我的意思是，如果狗叫朱威尔或乔勒，你会对这只狗的形象产生完全不同的想象。
That you I mean, you picture the dog very differently if it's called Jewel or Jowler.
不管怎样，朱威尔或乔勒是他最喜爱的狗。
Anyway, Jewel or Jowler is his favorite dog.
据说，这是他所谓的特别且最钟爱的猎犬。
Supposedly, his, quote, his special and most favorite hound.
她射中了
And she shoots
用十字弓射中了他。
him with a crossbow.
只是
Just
是意外吗？
by accident?
还是说故意的？这很难说，真的很难分辨清楚。
Or Well, so Deliberately, it's hard to it's hard really hard to make out.
我不得不查看原始资料，但非常不清楚。
I had to look at the original source, and it's very unclear.
这可是相当极端的举动，不是吗？
It's quite a quite a quite a drastic move, isn't it?
这非常极端。
It's very drastic.
如果你妻子用弩射杀了你的宠物狗，我的意思是，这确实相当严重。
If your wife killed your pet dog with a crossbow, I mean, that's that's pretty yeah.
我的意思是，从这种事中很难恢复过来。
I mean, it's hard to come back from that.
詹姆斯 apparently，这个故事太奇怪了。
James apparently mean, this is such a strange story.
当他看到狗身上插着弩箭时，他简直暴跳如雷。
He was absolutely furious when he saw a dog with a crossbow bolt.
你也会这样的。
You would be.
他当时气得大发雷霆。
And he was he he went around in an enormous huff.
他的仆人说，其实是女王干的。
And his servant said, well, it's actually the queen who did it.
到了那一刻，据说，这真是个离奇的故事。
And at that point, supposedly, this is such a weird story.
他冷静下来了。
He calms down.
他没那么生气了。
He's not so angry.
他送给她一颗价值两千英镑的珠宝，
He sent her a jewel worth £2,000,
所以狗的名字就叫珠宝，对吧？
which So that's just the dog's name is Jewel, surely.
对。
Right.
这相当于。
Which is the equivalent.
不过，也许有些混淆。
Well, maybe there's some confusion, though.
这相当于今天的大约一千万英镑。
Well, which is the equivalent of about £10,000,000 today.
他说：‘这是他心爱的已故狗狗留下的遗赠。’
And he says, quote, it was a legacy from his dear dead dog.
我的意思是，
I mean,
这很值得
that's worthy
堪比杰里米·索普丑闻。
of the Jeremy Thorpe scandal.
这太奇怪了，但真棒。
It's such a strange That's great.
你为什么要这么做？
Why would you do that?
我们当初列著名已故狗狗名单时，为什么没想起这个？
Why didn't we why didn't we remember this when we were going through our list of famous dead dead dogs?
因为我们当时不知道这件事。
Well, we didn't know about it.
我的意思是，咱们实话实说吧。
I mean, let's be honest.
我的意思是，当你说到记得这件事时，我们其实直到大约一天前才知道。
I when you say remember it, I mean, we didn't know it until about a day ago.
但哦，我觉得我觉得
But Oh, I think I think
你知道这件事吗？
Did you know this?
是的。
Yes.
我知道。
I did.
我知道。
I did.
我这个。
I this.
我知道。
I did.
我知道她杀了他家的狗。
I knew that she killed his dog.
突然间，当我想到这件事时，记忆又回来了。
And suddenly, thinking about it, came back to me.
是的。
Yeah.
当然，我认为这一切背后，汤姆，很大程度上是因为詹姆斯一世的性取向存在一些疑问，对吧？
Now, of course, I suppose what lies behind a lot of this though, Tom, is that James the first's sexuality is in some doubt, isn't it?
所以我认为到这个时候，他口水都流出来了。
So I think by this point And he slobbered.
是的。
Yeah.
他的舌头太大，装不下他的嘴。
His tongue is too big for his mouth.
是的。
Yes.
所以
So
他痴迷于女巫。
he's obsessed by witches.
他的舌头太大，塞不下他的嘴。
His tongue is too big for his mouth.
他流口水。
He slobbers.
他还
He's also
追求腿特别长的年轻男子。
going after young men with very long legs.
白金汉公爵。
The duke of Buckingham.
他特别迷恋白金汉公爵。
The duke of he's got a fancy for the duke of Buckingham.
面对这一切，这位丹麦王后简直被逼疯了。
So presented with all this, this Danish queen just driven mad.
但从英丹竞争的角度来看，我们必须指出，他当然是苏格兰人。
But but from the point of view of Anglo Anglo Danish rivalry, we point to point out he is, of course, Scottish.
是的。
Yes.
但他也是英格兰国王。
Although he's also the king of England.
他是英格兰国王。
He is the king of England.
我的意思是，我们并不仅仅是吞并苏格兰。
I mean, we're not just subsuming Scotland.
这件事还有更深层的含义，是的。
There is a further dimension to this Yes.
正是西蒙·沙玛指出的，是的。
Pointed out by none other than Simon Sharma Yes.
安妮女王。
Queen Anne.
这部剧。
The show.
难道不奇怪吗？《哈姆雷特》曾在汉普顿宫为詹姆斯国王和安妮女王上演，而詹姆斯的母亲的经历与格特鲁德的故事竟如此相似？
Isn't it weird that Hamlet was performed king before king James and and Queen Anne at Hampton Court, especially since James' mother's story not on altogether unlike Gertrude's?
这正是关键所在。
Well, this is the thing.
我认为这背后隐藏着狗被谋杀的真相。
I think this lies behind the dog murder.
是的。
Yeah.
她说得对。
She's right.
她已经搬到了英格兰。
She has moved to England.
她先搬到了苏格兰，然后才搬到英格兰。
She's moved to Scotland first, then to England.
她被迫观看那些将丹麦历史描绘得极其黑暗且错综复杂的关于丹麦的戏剧。
She's been forced to watch plays about Denmark that paint Danish history in a very dark and convoluted light.
但我的意思是，
But I mean,
所以，关于莎士比亚这一角度，詹姆斯去接她的时候，是的。
so so on the Shakespeare angle, James, when he went to to to pick her up Yes.
他确实访问了埃尔西诺，也就是《哈姆雷特》的故事背景地。
He he does visit Elsinore, which is the setting for for Hamlet.
你去过埃尔西诺吗？
Have you been to Elsinore?
我去过埃尔西诺。
I have been to Elsinore.
太棒了。
It's great.
它是一座非常棒的城堡。
It has a a it's a great castle.
在众多旅游景点中，它有一项特别之处，我几乎要佩服它了，因为实在太坦率了。
It has a remarkable thing among tourist attractions, which I almost admire them for because it's so shameless.
我们去的时候，必须沿着一条非常特定的路线走。
You have to when we went, we had to follow-up a very particular route.
你不能随意偏离路线。
You can't sort of deviate.
他们有
They have
一些商贩，对吧？
kind of sellers, don't they?
这是一个单向系统。
It's a one way system.
是的
Yeah.
但这个单向系统会让你两次经过礼品店的不同区域。
But the one way system leads you twice through the gift shop through different parts of the gift shop.
我记不太起来了。
I I didn't remember that.
我显然想不起来了。
I'm obviously blanking
但如果你带着孩子旅行，你会明显注意到这一点，因为你两次面对‘我能买把剑吗？’的攻势。
But if if you travel around with a child, you know, you really do notice it because you have faced two barrages of can I buy a sword?
我能买个哈姆雷特的头盔之类的吗？
Can I buy a, you know, hamlet's helmet or something?
是的
Yeah.
所以，无论如何，安妮真的很重要，因为她的哥哥将在很大程度上扮演重要角色。
So so, anyways, Anne Anne really matters because her brother is going to play a big part in well, he in most days.
那么，多米尼克，就莎士比亚这个主题而言，还有两部著名的悲剧与英丹关系有关。
Well, Dominic, could could so just on the Shakespeare theme, there are two other famous tragedies that have an Anglo Danish link.
另一部是《麦克白》，因为当安妮和詹姆斯横渡北海回来时，遭遇了可怕的风暴，詹姆斯将此归咎于女巫。
Other One is Macbeth because when they're coming back so when Anne is is and James are coming back across the North Sea, the terrible storms, and James blames this on witches.
因此，这在一定程度上加剧了他对巫术的痴迷。
So that's kind of part of what turbo charges his obsession with witchcraft.
在《麦克白》中也有关于女巫的暗示，好吧。
And there's an allusion to this in in Macbeth with the witches that Okay.
那些女巫向麦克白致意。
That hail Macbeth.
但另一部是克里斯蒂安四世，他是安妮的弟弟，我认为，是个非常强势的人物。
But the other one is so Christian the fourth, who is Anne's, I think, younger brother and a massive lad
一位极具影响力的国王。
A very powerful king.
是的。
Yes.
是个大块头。
Massive lad.
他来英国进行国事访问。
He comes over on a state visit
他去了伦敦。
He to London.
我本来想提一下这个的。
I was gonna mention this.
真遗憾你先说了他。
I'm gutted that you've got him first.
对不起。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
I'm sorry.
但我之所以在莎士比亚的语境下提到他，是因为他们曾在一艘船上会面。
But the reason I mentioned it with the Shakespeare context is that they have a kind of rendezvous on a ship.
所以詹姆斯又坐上一艘破烂的小船下来，而克里斯蒂安则拥有一艘巨大的船。
So James comes down on another wussy barge, and Christian has this massive ship.
他们在船上相遇，就像《安东尼与克莉奥佩特拉》中的安东尼和屋大维一样会面。
They meet up and have a rendezvous on the ship like Antony and Octavian in Antony Cleopatra.
哦，这是个不错的知识点。
Oh, that's a good fact.
詹姆斯·夏皮罗在他的《1622年的莎士比亚》一书中提出，这正是《安东尼与克莉奥佩特拉》这段情节的灵感来源。
James Shapiro in his, his book on, Shakespeare in '22 suggests that this was the inspiration for that passage in Antony and Cleopatra.
我不知道这是否属实，但这确实是一个莎士比亚式的英丹关联。
Don't know whether that's true or not, but it's a Shakespearean Anglo Danish angle.
这正是我想说的关于克里斯蒂安四世的事，他于1606年进行国事访问，来看望他的妹妹，整个过程原本非常顺利，却因丹麦人极其能喝而搞砸了——他们狂饮不止，宫廷上下都对这一幕感到震惊。
It's what I was gonna say about Christian the fourth, he comes over on a state visit in sixteen o six to visit his sister, and it goes incredibly well well, stroke badly because the Danes are very hard drinking, and they all drink a colossal amount, and everybody at court is struck by this.
他们在詹姆斯的乡间别墅举行了宴会。
And they stage at, James' country house.
他们上演了一出所罗门与示巴女王的假面剧，但最终变成了一场灾难，因为丹麦人一整天都在喝酒，还怂恿英国人一起豪饮。
They put on a mask of, Solomon and the queen of Sheba, and it turns into an absolute fiasco because the Danes have all been drinking all day, and they encourage the English to drink as well.
许多演员都醉得摔倒了，根本说不出台词。
And many of the actors are so drunk, they fall over and can't say their lines.
一种更常被违背而非遵守的习俗。
A custom more honored in the breach than in the observance
非常好。
Very good.
就像哈姆雷特会说的那样。
As Hamlet would say.
非常好。
Very good.
非常好。
Very good.
好的。
Okay.
我觉得关于安妮女王的话题差不多了，因为我们得继续了，毕竟我们还有
I think that's enough about Queen Anne because we've gotta move on because we've still
还有很多内容要讲。
got lots more to cover.
克里斯蒂安四世还在那里，他一直在周围徘徊。
Christian the fourth is still in the he's hovering around
当然了。
because Of course.
当然。
Course.
现在我们来看看丹·杰克逊的推文。
Now we've got Dan Dan Jackson's tweet.
是的。
Yeah.
因为，对吧，查理一世，他有一半丹麦血统，我从来没想过他有一半丹麦血统，但查理一世基本上是英国历史的化身。
Because, right, Charles the first, who is half Danish I'd never thought of him as half Danish, but Charles the first is basically the personification of English history.
一半丹麦人，其实是一半苏格兰人，
Half Dane, well, half half Scottish, actually,
他不是吗？
isn't he?
是的。
Yes.
因此，在内战爆发时，丹·杰克逊指出，查理一世向克里斯蒂安四世寻求军事援助，这一点我完全不知道。
So that he at the outbreak of the civil war, Dan Jackson points out, asks Christian the fourth for military aid, something I did not know at all.
丹麦人那里有这条推文吗，汤姆？来自
And the Danes have you got have you got the tweet there, Tom, from
我有。
I have.
是的。
Yes.
所以，丹·杰克逊——当然，他是《诺森伯兰人》的作者，曾出现在我们《南北分裂》这一集中——说，如果你在思考英丹关系，这很有趣：1642年，查理一世向他的舅舅克里斯蒂安四世寻求军事援助，但作为回报，丹麦人希望获得奥克尼、设得兰群岛，并以纽卡斯尔作为抵押。
So so Dan Dan Jackson, who, of course, author of Northumbrians, who appeared on our North South Divide episode, says, if you're musing on Anglo Danish relations, and this is intriguing, in 1642, Charles the first asked his uncle Christian the fourth for military aid, but in return, the Danes wanted Orkney, Shetland, and to gain possession of Newcastle in Pawn.
而这一举动的动机似乎是商业性的，因为纽卡斯尔以煤炭和盐业闻名。
And the the motive for this seems to have been commercial as Newcastle was renowned for her coal and salt industries.
所以，你知道，丹麦人的纽卡斯尔
So, you know, Danish Newcastle
是的
Yeah.
他们想要拿回丹诺，基本上就是这样。
They wanted a bit they wanted the Danor back, basically, clearly.
是的
Yeah.
基本上。
Basically.
对。
Yeah.
他们没得到。
And they didn't get it.
结果没成功，是吧？
It didn't work out, did it?
没有。
No.
所以，后来我相信，克里斯蒂安四世派了一些人带着船只和大量军备去向查理一世提供援助，但不知怎的，他们被议会派扣押、殴打，然后被遣送回国，事情就这样结束了。
So Christian the fourth later, I believe, sent some people with with ships and a load of armor and to to offer to Charles the first, and somehow, they they are detained by parliamentarians and and beaten up or something and then sent back, and and that's in terms of it.
所以这是丹麦错失的一个巨大机会。
So that's a great missed, you know, it's a great missed opportunity for Denmark.
那么，多米尼克，在那之后到1801年之间，我们有关于英丹关系的资料吗？
And do and, Dominic, do we have anything on Anglo Danish relations between that and eighteen o one?
我们没有，但1801年是个非常关键的年份。
We don't, but eighteen o one is such a great date.
我觉得我们应该直接跳到1801年。
I think we should get straight to eighteen o one.
那为什么1801年是个重要的年份呢？
So so tell us why eighteen o one is a great date.
1801年，拿破仑战争期间，英国和法国相互实施了封锁。
So eighteen o one, the Napoleonic Wars, the British have tried to the French and the British have imposed rival kind of blockades on each other.
所有波罗的海国家，包括俄罗斯、普鲁士、丹麦和瑞典，都希望打破英国的封锁。
And all the Baltic sort of countries, Russia, Prussia, Denmark, Sweden, they want to break the British blockade.
他们想继续贸易，但英国坚决不同意。
They wanna carry on trading, and the British are having none of this.
纳尔逊此前环游世界，现在被派往波罗的海，被告知必须执行封锁，阻止这些国家突破封锁，尤其是我们担心他们可能会投靠法国。
Nelson, who's been off around the world, is sent off to the Baltic and is told, you know, you have to impose the blockade and stop these people breaking out, and especially we're worried that they might join the French.
纳尔逊以他那种豪迈的冒险精神回应说：‘那我们就干脆把他们全炸了。’
Nelson says, well, in his sort of swashbuckling spirit, he says, well, let's just let's just blow them all up.
于是他率军进入哥本哈根港，而海军上将帕克则在他身后待命。
So he goes off into Copenhagen Harbor, and the admiral admiral Parker waits behind him.
4月2日，纳尔逊发动了进攻。
And on the April 2, Nelson attacks.
他猛烈进攻，整个港口被浓烟笼罩。
And he attacks with such force, there's huge amounts of smoke all over the harbor.
海军上将向他发出信号，命令撤退，主要是担心英国船只可能搁浅。
And the admiral sent him a signal, so to withdraw, basically worried that, British ships are running aground.
是的
Yeah.
现在，这位海军上将很清楚，如果战况顺利，纳尔逊会无视这个信号，而纳尔逊也正是这么做的。
Now the the admiral kind of knows that if things are going well, Nelson will ignore it, and that's precisely what Nelson does.
于是纳尔逊对他的旗舰舰长托马斯·福莱说，他知道有人传来了信号。
So Nelson says to his flag captain, the man called Thomas Foley, he's he know he's been told there's a signal.
他对福莱说：‘福莱，我只有一只眼睛。’
He says to Foley, you know, Foley, I have only one eye.
我有权在某些时候选择视而不见。
I have a right to be blind sometimes.
他举起望远镜，把它放到那只失明的眼睛前——因为他在1794年的科西嘉战役中失去了那只眼睛。
And he lifts the telescope, and he puts it to the blind eye because he's been blinded in Corsica in 1794.
他说：‘我真的没看见那个信号。’
And he says, I really do not see the signal.
对。
Yeah.
当然，他根本没有看到。
Which, of course, he doesn't.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们继续进攻。
So we carry on attacking.
我们俘获了六艘丹麦舰船。
We capture six Danish ships.
我们击沉了其中三艘。
We sink three of them.
作为对这一战果的奖赏，纳尔逊被封为尼罗河的纳尔逊子爵，这是一个崇高的头衔。
And as a reward for this, Nelson is made Viscount Nelson of the Nile, which is a great title.
我要说，这个故事很可能并不真实。
Now I will say, this story is probably untrue.
我的意思是，这真是太遗憾了。
I mean, that's such a shame.
所以罗杰·奈特，纳尔逊的传记作者，说，关于望远镜的这段故事很可能是一个事后编造的传说
So Roger Knight, who is Nelson's biographer, says, this is prob this stuff about the telescope is probably an apocryphal story created
是事后编造的。
after the event.
但这并不妨碍它成为任何面临被取代之人的一种激励。
But that that needn't stop it being an inspiration for anyone threatened with substitution.
不。
No.
在星期三晚上。
On Wednesday night.
没错。
Exactly.
是的。
Yes.
我看不出来。
I I do not see it.
我的盲眼被蒙蔽了，随后又攻入了制胜一球。
My blind eye is turned, and then going on to score the winning goal.
是的。
Yes.
所以这
So that
可能是相似之处。
might be the parallel.
也许吧。
Maybe.
但接着我们有了十八世纪七年发生的另一次进攻。
But then but so so we have that, but then we also have another attack in eighteen o seven.
对。
Yeah.
如果你是丹麦人听这个，你可能会记得的是1807年那次，而不是1801年。
If so if you're Danish listening to this, that's the one you'll probably remember, not eighteen o one.
因为这真的很糟糕，因为我们基本上就是先发制人，对吧？
Because this is really bad because we basically just it's a preemptive strike, isn't it?
是的。
Yeah.
我们担心他们会再次与法国结盟。
We we're worried about them joining the French again.
这次，我们就觉得直接动手吧。
This time, we just think, go for it.
是的。
Yeah.
英国派出了三万名士兵登陆。
The the British land 30,000 troops.
他们轰炸了哥本哈根。
They bombard Well Copenhagen.
继续说，汤姆。
Go on, Tom.
你有什么想说的吗？
You want something to say?
嗯，我只是觉得。
Well, I just yeah.
这实际上是非常可耻的，这显然也是为什么英国人对此一无所知的原因。
So so this is very pretty shameful, actually, which is obviously why people in England don't know about it.
但有一个出乎我意料的人确实知道这件事，那就是弗罗斯特勋爵，他曾经是英国脱欧谈判代表。
But one person who does know about it unexpectedly to me is Lord Frost, who, of course, is the was the Brexit negotiator.
首席脱欧谈判代表？
The chief Brexit?
他有威胁过吗？
Does he has he threatened this?
他在脱欧谈判期间应该提出这种威胁吗？
Does he he should threaten this during Brexit negotiations?
没有。
No.
但他在成为英国脱欧谈判代表之前，曾是一名外交官。
But he but but so before he became the Brexit negotiator, he was a diplomat.
对。
Right.
他曾是丹麦哥本哈根的大使。
And, he was the ambassador to Copenhagen.
所以他昨天发了推文，说：‘我有一份你们可能对英丹专题感兴趣的东西，这是我当年在丹麦任大使时，自行翻译的英文版小册子，内容是我们与丹麦当局共同发布的关于1807年哥本哈根围城战的资料。’
So he he tweeted yesterday, I have something you may be interested in for your Anglo Danish episode, my own rough translation into English done when I was ambassador in Denmark of the pamphlet we published with the Danish authorities about the eighteen o seven siege of Copenhagen.
汤姆，你们的首席英国脱欧谈判代表在给你关于播客的建议吗？
Tom, are you receiving advice about the podcast from our chief Brexit negotiator?
是的。
Yes.
是的，我在收。
I am.
是的。
Yes.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
那很不错，而且里面对那些导弹的发射有非常精彩的描述，你知道的，就是他们开发的那些火炮。
That's a nice And and there's some there's a fantastic description of it, of of all the the the kind of the gun, you know, the the firing of these missiles that they developed and
对。
Yeah.
所以是康格里夫火箭吗？
So they Congreve Congreve rockets?
康格里夫火箭，就是同一种火箭。
Congreve rockets, which They're the same rockets.
源自迈索尔王国的发明，后来由康格里夫加以改进，
Invention of the of the Kingdom Of Mysore that then got developed by Congreve and
但它们就是《星条旗》中爆炸的那些火箭。
But they're they're they're they're the rockets that are bursting in the Star Spangled Banner.
是的。
Yes.
我们使用它们
We use them
同时使用。
at the same time.
这很令人惊讶，但我们在哥本哈根使用了它们。
It's surprising, but we fire them at Copenhagen.
但我们还收到了来自汉普郡路德宗牧师塔帕尼·西马乔奇的另一条推文。
But we also have another another tweet from, Tapani Simajocchi, who is, a Lutheran pastor in Hampshire.
你手头有所有联系方式，对吧？
And You've got all the contacts, haven't you?
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
他讨论了一首基于‘磐石’的圣歌——‘教会屹立’，他说这首圣歌是事后受到英国在哥本哈根战役中故意摧毁圣母教堂（一座中世纪教堂）的启发而创作的。
And he he discusses a hymn built on the rock, the church doth stand, which he says was inspired retrospectively by the deliberate destruction of the Church of Our Lady, which is a medieval church, by the British in the battle of Copenhagen.
英国炮手以虔诚著称，却把尖塔当作瞄准练习的目标。
A famously godly lot, the British gunners used the spire for range practice.
是的。
Yes.
嗯，这是真的。
Well, this is true.
我们确实这么做了。
We did.
所以我们的炮手确实利用教堂尖塔来校准瞄准，把它们打得稀巴烂。
So our gunners did use the church spires, to to get their sights, and they just blasted the hell out of them.
是的。
Yeah.
所以事情就是这样。
So there we go.
因此，那里得到了很多来自
So a lot of help there from
是的。
Yes.
从一个从一个一个
From a from a a
英国脱欧、芬兰、轴心国在那里。
Brexit, Finnish, axis there.
所以感谢弗罗斯特勋爵和帕尼为此付出的努力。
So thank you to Lord Frost and to to Parny for for, for that.
另一个关于拿破仑战争的快速参考是，为了纪念纳尔逊在哥本哈根的英勇行为——如果你能称之为英勇的话——威灵顿公爵将他的马命名为哥本哈根。
One other quick, one of the quick Napoleonic Wars reference is that, to honor in tribute to Nelson's heroics at Copenhagen, if heroics you can call them, the duke of Wellington called his horse Copenhagen.
当然，他确实这么做了。
Of course, he did.
最近的马厩。
And the nearest fold.
他在战斗中被包围了
He was fold during the
那次攻击。
the attack.
威灵顿公爵在滑铁卢战役中离死亡最近的一次，是他最后从哥本哈根马背上下来的时候。
And the nearest Wellington came to death at the Battle of Waterloo was when he got off Copenhagen at the end.
哥本哈根试图踢他，差点踢中他的头部，那会要了他的命。
Copenhagen tried to kick him and almost kicked him in the head, which would have killed him.
我相信，哥本哈根至今仍埋葬在威灵顿公爵位于斯特拉特菲尔德赛的宅邸里。
And Copenhagen is still buried, I believe, at the duke of Wellington's house at Stratford Sey.
斯特拉特菲尔德赛。
Stratfield Say.
抱歉。
Sorry.
太棒了。
Wonderful.
是的。
Yes.
看，就是这样。
One there you go.
好的。
Okay.
好吧，就是这样。
Well, there you go.
现在我认为你有一个非常精彩的故事，这个故事是由纳尔逊·琼斯提出的。
Now I think you have an excellent, excellent story, suggested by Nelson Jones.
我猜得对吗？
Am I right?
是的。
Yes.
我确实如此。
I do.
所以要读纳尔逊的，真是
So to read Nelson's, what an
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