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所以足球要回家了，还是不会？
So football is coming home, or is it?
它会不会去罗马呢？
Might it be going to Rome?
我和多米尼克·桑布鲁克在一起。
Dominic Sandbrook with me.
昨晚是一个充满巨大激情与戏剧性的夜晚，英格兰足球队追随其盎格鲁-撒克逊祖先的脚步，在埃丁顿、泰顿霍尔、布鲁嫩堡的战役中击溃了丹麦人的盾墙。
A night of titanic passion and drama last night as the England football team following in the footsteps of their Anglo Saxon forebears who won at the battles of Eddington, of Tetonhall, of Brunnenburg smashed the Danish shield Wall.
是的。
Yes.
那可不像你期望的那样彻底击溃了盾墙。
It wasn't quite the smashing of the shield wall that you might have hoped for.
不是吗？
Was it No.
我简直荒谬地
I'm grotesquely
夸大其词了。
exaggerating.
比赛很紧张，而丹麦人怎么说呢，他们可以说有点运气不好。
It was tense, and the Danes were I mean, they could claim they're a little bit unlucky.
但除了激光笔的闪光之类的事情，
But it was apart from the shining of laser pens and so on, which
上帝的笔。
The pen of god.
上帝的激光笔。
The laser pen of god.
是的。
Yeah.
我想盎格鲁-撒克逊人可能会对此不以为然。
Which I think the Anglo Saxons might have frowned upon.
我觉得，丹麦队退出比赛时非常有风度，正如我所希望的那样。
I I thought, you know, the Danes bowed out very gallantly as I thought as I hoped they would.
我们喜欢丹麦人。
We love the Danes.
所以丹麦人某种程度上是我们的亲戚，对吧？
So the Danes are kind of our kin, aren't they?
他们是我们的北方同胞。
They're our they're our they're our northern brethren.
这次决赛会非常不同，因为意大利人是我们以完全不同的方式定义自我的对手。
So this time is the the final is gonna be very different because the Italians are they're people against whom we've defined ourselves, but in completely different ways.
在各种方面，他们是文化上的对立面。
There are cultural opposites in various ways.
我的意思是，我们确实有着非常引人入胜的交织历史，但他们不就是那种刻板印象吗？
I mean, we do have a really fascinating intertwined history, but they are the kind of stereotype, aren't they?
地中海地区的非英国人，这么说吧。
The Mediterranean non Britons, if you like.
但如果从最宏观的视角来看，我认为可以说，在欧洲所有国家中，或许没有哪个国家对我们的历史产生过比意大利更深远的影响。
But looking at it in in the broadest possible span, I mean, I think you can make the case for saying that of all Europe's countries, perhaps none of them has had a a profounder influence on my history than Italy.
我觉得我们对每个国家都这么说过。
I think we've said that about every country.
我觉得我们
I think we
我们说过英格兰和丹麦之间的竞争是最古老的，我认为这是对的。
said that the rivalry between England and Denmark was the oldest, which I I think is true.
但我认为意大利以各种形式和方式产生的影响，可以说是远远超出了深刻的程度。
But I think that the influence that Italy has had in various manifestations and in various ways, I I mean, has has been I mean, it's kind of beyond profound.
而且，我们想用
And the idea that we can sum it all up in
好吧。
in Okay.
用四十或五十分钟就概括这一切，简直是荒谬的。
What, forty, fifty minutes is eudicrous.
但我们可能该走了，对吧？
But we should probably crack off, shouldn't we?
是的。
Yeah.
如果你要追溯到意大利作为一个国家成立之前，那当然没错。
If you're gonna go back beyond the creation of Italy as a country, then, of course, that's true.
尤其是如果你回到你专长的领域，我想那会是你开场的地方。
Especially if you go back to one of your specialisms, which is where I imagine you're gonna kick off.
这是因为我认为我们真的需要定义意大利和英格兰。
Well, it is because I thought we really need to define Italy and England.
所以，意大利实际上比
So, Italy actually is much older than
意大利王国的建立要古老得多。
the the founding of the, you know, Italian Italian kingdom.
意大利王国是在十九世纪建立的，因为毫无疑问，罗马人在公元前二世纪初甚至更早就已经有了意大利作为一个统一身份的认同。
Italian kingdom in the nineteenth century because, absolutely, the Romans had a sense of of Italy as a coherent identity certainly by the early second century BC, possibly before that.
是的。
Yeah.
实际上，在公元前第一个世纪初期，当各个意大利民族和城市反抗罗马时，他们铸造了刻有'Italia'字样的钱币，并宣布建立一个与罗马统治相对立的统一意大利。
And, actually, the the the beginning of the first century BC, when the the various Italian peoples and cities rebel against Rome, they mint coins with the name Italia on it, and they proclaim a kind of a unitary Italy in opposition to Roman rule.
所以，你知道，这正是十九世纪发生之事的前身，我认为这使得谈论意大利是合理的。
So, you know, that's the kind of precursor for what happens in the nineteenth century that I think makes it legitimate to talk about Italy.
尽管在这两个时期之间，意大利的概念在许多世纪里几乎消失了。
Even though Italy then kind of went underground for so many centuries between those two points.
是的。
Yes.
但罗马人确实有自我认同为意大利人的意识。
But but the the the Romans have a sense of themselves as Italian
好的。
Okay.
当然。
Certainly.
因此，我认为很有意思的是，关于将来最终成为英格兰的最早描述，正是来自意大利人。
And and so I think it's telling that the first description of what will in long in in in due course become England is from Italian.
这是尤利乌斯·凯撒写的，他在公元前55年和54年领导了对不列颠的远征。
It's from Julius Caesar, who leads expeditions against Britain in fifty five BC, fifty four BC.
是的。
Yeah.
他写下了这些内容，全是自我吹嘘的记述，极度自夸，这种事你绝不会做，多米尼克。
Writes it up in massive self promoting conventories, self aggrandizing, the kind of thing that you would never do, Dominic.
谢谢，汤姆。
And Thank you, Tom.
显然，罗马人后来在公元43年永久入侵，不列颠成为罗马帝国的一部分。
And, obviously, the Romans then invade permanently in forty three AD, and Britain becomes part of the Roman Empire
是的。
Yeah.
持续了大约四个世纪。
For kind of four centuries.
随后罗马人撤出，根据后来的传统，盎格鲁人、撒克逊人和朱特人入侵并占领了原本的罗马行省不列颠，这最终演变成了英格兰。
The Romans then withdraw, and the Angles, the Saxons, the Jutes, according to, later tradition, then invade and seize what had been the Roman province of Britannia, and this, in due course, becomes England.
所以当我们谈论英格兰对阵意大利时，我认为我们其实应该从盎格鲁-撒克逊人开始看起，而不是像卡蒂图斯或布狄卡之类的人物。
So when we're talking about England against Italy, really, I think we need to start looking at the Anglo Saxons rather than say with Caraticus or Boudicca or
所以如果这是威尔士对意大利的比赛——这在锦标赛早期确实发生过——你会选用布狄卡和卡蒂图斯等人，但你在这档播客中刻意回避了他们。
So you're not including if this was Wales v Italy, which did happen earlier in the tournament, you would have gone in with Boudicca and Caraticus and so on, but you're despiring them for the purposes of this podcast.
我觉得是这样。
I think so.
这其中有不同的观点。
There are arguments.
有一些学者认为，一种原始英语形式曾在不列颠东部地区使用。
There are scholars who argue that a a form of proto English was spoken in the Eastern half of Britain.
真的吗？
Really?
还有一种说法认为，布狄卡其实是一个双关语。
And there's an argument that Boudicca is actually a a pun.
在凯尔特语中，这个词的意思是‘胜利’，即‘Victoria’。
So in Celtic languages, it it's it means victory, Victoria.
所以这就是为什么你会在议会大厦外看到布狄卡的雕像。
So that's why you get the statue of Budoka outside houses of parliament.
假设曾经存在一种原始英语，一种日耳曼语。
Suppose there was a kind of proto English, a kind of Germanic language.
有可能，比如现在作为宗教的威卡（Wicca）一词，意思是女性。
It's possible that, say, Wicca as in, you know, Wicca now the the religion means a woman.
而且有可能存在一种误解，认为它指的是被攻击或被强奸的女性，而布狄卡确实遭遇了这些，从而引发了起义。
And it's possible that there's an illusion there that that it it means a a woman who's been attacked or a woman who's been raped, which, of course, Boudicca was and precipitates the rebellion.
所以或许确实存在一些原始英语的使用区域，但这是一种极具争议的观点，并不被广泛接受，我认为我们不应该
So perhaps there is there are kind of pockets of proto English being spoken, but it's a highly controversial opinion, not widely accepted, and not one that I think we should
去深入探讨。
be going to do.
对。
Right.
这太复杂了。
This is way too complicated.
我能看见那个兔子洞在向我招手。
I can see the rabbit hole beckoning.
但我想说的是，对于盎格鲁-撒克逊人来说，罗马在他们的想象中占据着核心地位。
But what what I would say is that for the Anglo Saxons, Rome is kind of central to their imagination.
它几乎是他们想象中的首都。
It's kind of almost the capital of their of their imaginings.
他们对罗马这个概念有着非常深刻的情感和精神联系。
And they have a very, very kind of profound emotional spiritual relationship to the idea of Rome.
是的。
Yes.
我认为这基本上为英国人对意大利的整体态度提供了最初的土壤。
That that I think is you know, basically provides the kind of seedbed from which English attitudes to to Italy generally come from.
那么，最早的英格兰国王——也就是我们今天所认识的英格兰人的国王——他们是否认为自己是罗马皇帝的继承者？
So English kings, the very first English kings or the kings of the people we recognize as the English, did they see themselves, do think, as the heirs to the Roman emperors?
铸造钱币，也许还住在……我是说，伯纳德·康沃尔系列的最后一部王国里，他们的宫殿就建在罗马别墅的废墟之上。
Minting coins and and living maybe in the I mean, the last kingdom of Bernard Cornwell series, they their their palaces are kind of in the ruins of Roman villas and things.
你认为，这就是他们看待自己的方式吗？
Is that is that, do you think, how they saw themselves?
我认为，他们觉得自己是罗马的边缘地带。
I think I think I think they have a sense of themselves as peripheral to Rome.
是的。
Yeah.
从这个意义上说，他们仍然把自己看作是与中心都市之间的一种殖民关系。
So in that sense, they still see themselves kinda it's kind of a colonial relationship to the to the metropolis.
因为如果你看一下《盎格鲁-撒克逊编年史》，这是一部逐年记载的历史，它始于尤利乌斯·凯撒抵达不列颠。
Because if you if you look at the Anglo Saxon Chronicle, which is this kind of year by year account of history, it begins with Julius Caesar coming to Britain.
因此，从某种意义上说，盎格鲁-撒克逊人将自己的历史开端与罗马首次接触他们将要定居的岛屿联系在一起。
And so in a sense, the Anglo Saxons are identifying the beginnings of their history with Rome's first contact with the island in which they will come to live.
对。
Yeah.
所以，他们正是通过罗马来定义自己的。
So that's kind of defining themselves through Rome.
而且，如果你看一下比德，他是英格兰第一位伟大的历史学家，我们关于盎格鲁-撒克逊英格兰及其起源的大量信息都来自比德。
And, again, if you look at Bede, who is the first great historian of England, so much of our information about Anglo Saxon England and its beginnings comes from Bede.
他在开篇描述不列颠——曾经被称为阿尔比恩——说它是一个位于海洋中的岛屿，地处西北方向。
And he his his kind of opening, he he describes Britain, which was once called Albion, he says, is an island in the ocean, and it lies to the Northwest.
令人着迷的是，比德是以罗马为中心来定位不列颠的。
And what's fascinating about that is that Bede is situating Britain relative to Rome.
没错。
Right.
所以他采用了罗马人的视角。
So he's taking on a Roman perspective.
是的。
Yes.
因此，从这个意义上说，仍隐约残留着被殖民的痕迹。
So in that sense, there's still a kind of the hint of the the colonized to it.
是的。
Yeah.
罗马是世界的中心。
Rome is the center of the world.
罗马是
Rome is
中心，在边缘上。
the center on the at the edge.
好的。
Okay.
我同意这一点。
I buy that.
我完全同意这一点。
I completely buy that.
我的意思是，除了斯堪的纳维亚人，所有欧洲民族，特别是西欧民族，在所谓的黑暗时代都这样定义自己。
I mean, presumably, all European peoples except the sort of Scandinavians, certainly all Western European peoples, but in the well, used to call the dark ages define themselves that way.
对吧？
Right?
罗马曾经是中心，现在仍然是。
Rome used to be the center, and it still is.
但我觉得，也有一种感觉。
But there's there's a sense also, I think.
我的意思是，你提到了国王。
I mean, you've asked about kings.
甚至在英格兰皈依罗马基督教之前，东盎格利亚就有一群国王，可能是埋葬了萨顿胡船葬的那些人，他们被称为狼人族。
So even before England gets converted to to the Roman form of Christianity, there's a group of of kings in in East Anglia, probably the guys who who who who bury the, the ship at Sutton Hoo called the wolfingas.
对。
Right.
学者们认为，‘狼’这个字可能就嵌在他们的名字里，他们还在钱币上大肆宣扬狼的形象。
And scholars have have argued that the name wolf that's embedded in that may well part of they put it on their coins that make great riffs about the wolf.
当然，狼哺育了罗慕路斯和雷穆斯。
Of course, the wolf suckles Romulus and Remus.
是的。
Yes.
所以这可能是其中一部分原因。
So perhaps that's a part of it.
当然，在他们的族谱中，就像所有盎格鲁-撒克逊国王一样，他们将自己的血统追溯至众神之王沃登。
Certainly, in their genealogy, they like like all the Anglo Saxon kings, they trace it back to Woden, the king of the gods.
但他们特别指出，沃登的儿子是凯撒，因此他们源自凯撒。
But they distinctively say that the son of Woden was Caesar, and therefore, they are descended from Caesar.
这是一种传统。
And this is a tradition.
你刚才问，盎格鲁-撒克逊国王是否效仿了帝国统治的模式？
This you you asked, do do the Anglo Saxon kings kind of ape the model of imperial rule?
他们确实如此。
They they absolutely do.
关于阿尔弗雷德的故事是这样流传的。
So the story is told of Alfred.
他确实曾一次前往罗马朝圣，但据说他小时候也曾去过罗马，接受过教皇的祝福，并被他膏立，就像查理曼大帝那样。
He he definitely goes to Rome on pilgrimage once, but he's he's supposed also to have gone, as a boy and to have been, blessed by the pope and to have been anointed by him rather as Charlemagne did.
我的意思是，这几乎不可能发生，因为在当时阿尔弗雷德根本没有可能成为国王。
I mean, this is most unlikely to have happened because there was no prospect at that point that Alfred was gonna become king.
但这是一个重要的故事，它被不断传颂。
But it's a story that matters, it gets told.
后来，阿尔弗雷德的孙子成为第一位统治整个英格兰的国王，他召集了来自不列颠北部各地的国王。
In due course, Alfred's grandson, he is the first king of the whole of England, and he summons kings from across the North Of Britain.
那些罗马人从未征服过的不列颠地区——苏格兰国王、斯特拉斯克莱德国王——都被他召至坎布里亚的阿蒙特。
So those stretches of of Britain that the Romans had never conquered, kings of the Scots, kings from the Strathclyde, and he summons them to a place called Amont in in Cumbria.
而这个地方的特别之处在于，那里有一座罗马堡垒。
And what's significant about that place is that there's a Roman fortress there.
这象征着罗马的权力。
So there's a symbol of Roman power.
随后，他在罗马城市举行盛大的朝会，很可能是在仍可使用的圆形剧场中，这为温布利球场确立了原型。
And then he holds these kind of great durbars in Roman cities, presumably in the kind of amphitheaters that are still functional and which established the prototype for Wembley.
这并不怎么样。
That's not very good.
是的
Yeah.
就是这样
That is
一切由此开始。
where it all begins.
对。
Yeah.
埃德加，就是我们在关于丹麦的播客中提到的那位，他举行了盛大的加冕典礼。
And Edgar, his who who we mentioned in the the podcast about in against Denmark, he has this very imperial coronation.
他选择在哪里举行呢？
And where does he choose to have it?
在巴斯，
In Bath, which
那里满是罗马时期的建筑。
is Oh, because full of Roman buildings.
奢华至极。
Extravagantly.
是的。
Yeah.
英国最奢华、最帝国气派的城市。
The most extravagantly imperial city in in Britain.
所以我认为，这确实是其中一部分原因：人们对罗马帝国有一种文化上的自卑感，并渴望效仿它。
So I think that that is absolutely a part of it, that there's a kind of a a cultural cringe before the idea of the Roman Empire and a desire to emulate it.
所以这对意大利来说，这个 podcast 的开头非常好。
So this is a very good start for Italy in this podcast.
看起来不错。
It's looking good.
那很好。
So that's good.
所以，是的，我们正在...
So so we're, yes.
所以意大利团队那种令人敬畏的存在感，让我们不由得退缩。
So the kind of intimidating presence of of of the Italian team, we're flinching before it.
但是，是的。
But Yeah.
我们也可以从中学到一些东西，因为罗马的意义不仅在于它曾是帝国首都，更在于它是教皇之城。
There's also stuff that we can learn because, of course, Rome is not significant only as an imperial capital, as was, but as the city of the popes.
是的。
Yes.
我原以为我们会谈到
I thought we'd get to
教皇。
the popes.
彼得和保罗殉道的地方，罗马主教的主教座所在地。
The place where Peter and Paul are martyred, where the bishop of Rome has his has his bishopric.
而正是罗马主教派遣传教士去皈化异教的盎格鲁-撒克逊人。
And it's the bishop of Rome who sends missionaries to convert the pagan Anglo Saxons.
负责这件事的人是格里高利大帝，他是个超级双关语爱好者。
And the guy who does that is Gregory the Great, who is a massive punster.
双关语爱好者？
A punster?
他确实是个双关语爱好者。
He's a punster.
他超爱玩双关语。
He loves his puns.
没错。
Right.
有一个著名的故事说，他去罗马的奴隶市场，看到一些金发男孩——这些孩子来自一个叫德伊拉的王国，那是英格兰北部诺森布里亚的一部分。
So it's a famous story that he goes out into the slave market in Rome, and he sees these blonde boys, blonde children, who've come from, a kingdom called Deira, part of Northumbria in in Northern England.
他问他们是什么人，被告知他们是盎格鲁人（Angles）。
And he asks if they are, and he's told that they are Angles, Angli.
于是他说：不是Angles，而是Angeli——不是盎格鲁人，而是天使。
And he says, non Angli, said Angeli, not Angles, but angels.
所有人都笑倒了。
And everyone collapses into laughter.
当他问他们来自哪里时，有人告诉他，是德伊拉。
And when he asks where they come from, he's told, Deira.
他说，啊，德伊拉，意思是‘愤怒’。
He says, ah, Deira, which means from anger.
我被召唤去拯救他们，使他们脱离撒旦的愤怒。
I have been called to rescue them from the anger of Satan.
天哪。
Oh my word.
哇。
Wow.
我的天，这一连串的冷笑话啊。
I mean, stream of terrible jokes.
是的。
Yes.
所以这就像某种……是的。
So this is like some sort of yeah.
这就像上世纪九十年代某个外国足球协会说：我们会派一些教练来打破你们的长传踢法，教你们如何踢真正的足球。
This is some sort of foreign football association in the nineteen nineties saying, we'll send you some coaches to break your long ball game and teach you how to play proper football.
没错。
Exactly.
或者派你们克劳迪奥·里亚利和詹卢卡·维亚利这些人来。
Or send you Claudio Ranieri and Gianluca Vialli and so on.
没错，实际上，英格兰人最终把格雷戈里奉为他们的天界守护圣人。
Exact well, actually and and the English end up they they take Gregory as their celestial patron.
因此他们想象，在末日审判时，格雷戈里会在上帝的宝座前为他们求情。
So they imagine that at the end of days, Gregory will plead their case before the throne of god.
对。
Right.
但他们还在罗马设立了一所培训学校。
But they also they set up a kind of training school in Rome.
所以他们建立了一个 hostel，供朝圣者住宿。
So they set up a a hostel where they can all where pilgrims can stay.
它至今仍保留在罗马的街道规划中，因为他们称之为 'bur'。
It it it actually preserves a trace in the in the street plan of Rome to this day because they they call it a bur.
哦，对。
Oh, right.
源自阿尔弗雷德的 'burrs'。
After Alfred's burrs.
源自阿尔弗雷德的 'burrs'。
After Alfred's burrs.
那就是圣灵堡，是一条从台伯河通往圣彼得广场的道路。
And it's the the Burgo Santo Spirito, which is the kind of the road that leads from the Tiber up to the Piazza in front of Saint Peter's.
是的。
Yeah.
这保留了 'burg' 的痕迹，因为那里曾经就是它的所在地。
That preserves you know, that derives from the burg, which was there because that's that's where it stood.
非常不错。
Very nice.
但显然，教皇后来成了几代英国男女的头号公敌，不是吗？
But, obviously, the pope, he goes on to be, you know, public enemy number one for generations of English men and women, doesn't he?
我的意思是，即使在宗教改革之前，教廷与英格兰王室之间就已存在严重的矛盾，
I mean, even preceding the reformation, there was a bad blood between the papacy, certainly, and the the
英格兰王室。
English crown.
对吧？
Right?
在盎格鲁-撒克逊时期，人们觉得教皇就像是他们的教父，
Well, in the Anglo Saxon period, the sense that the the the pope is their kind of godfather,
我认为，教父这个角色其实挺好的。
I think, is is The godfather are very nice.
在任何意义上，都没人对此有意见。
No one has no one has an issue, you know, in every sense of the word.
没人对这一点有意见。
No one no one has an issue with that.
格列高利七世，这位十一世纪伟大的改革派教皇，正如我们在关于1066年的节目中提到的，他向征服者威廉送去了旗帜。
Gregory the seventh, the the kind of great reforming pope of the eleventh century, he sends, as we mentioned in our episode on ten sixty six, he sends a banner to William the Conqueror
是的。
Yes.
算是祝他好运。
Kinda wishing him good luck.
对。
Yeah.
格列高利七世之所以是一位具有革命性的教皇，是因为他首次明确提出教皇应凌驾于所有世俗君主之上，而此前从未如此。
And the reason that Gregory the seventh is so revolutionary pope is that, essentially, he is the guy who pushes the idea that the pope should be superior to all earthly kings in a way that he hadn't been before.
对。
Yeah.
而这自然就引发了紧张感。
And that, of course, is what then generates the sense of tension.
所以，在亨利二世因托马斯·贝克特谋杀案被追究责任后，
So you get it with Henry the second after he's held responsible for the murder of Thomas Becket
是的。
Yeah.
他不得不被鞭打游街，穿过坎特伯雷的街道以示忏悔。
That that essentially has to be kind of whipped through the streets of Canterbury to pay penance.
当然，在约翰王统治时期——我们在《大宪章》那一集里讨论过——约翰与英诺森三世发生了严重冲突，而英诺森三世是一位极其强势且专制的教皇。
And then, of course, in the reign of John, which we talked about in our episode of Magna Carta, John basically kinda has a massive bust up with Innocent the third, who is a ferociously powerful and authoritarian pope.
约翰最终被击垮，不得不将英格兰作为教皇的封地献出。
And John is broken by it and ends up offering England as a papal fiefdom.
他只是代教皇保管英格兰。
He holds it in trust from the pope.
我认为这大概确实留下了一点‘是的’的遗产。
And I think that probably does kind of establish a a slight legacy of Yeah.
紧张。
Tension.
所以在整个那段时期，我的意思是，意大利人，或者说英国人——用‘替罪羊’这个词太重了，但我们确实正如你开头所说的，存在一种文化自卑感。
So so during all that period, I mean, the Italian the the the English as it were, the other the whipping boys is too strong, but we're definitely in a sort of, to borrow your phrase from the beginning, there's an element of cultural cringe.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得是的。
I think so.
罗马才是中心所在。
The Rome is where it is.
教廷是那种……你知道的，教皇是上帝在人间的代理人，而且确实如此。
The papacy is the sort of, you know, gods the pope is god's vicar on earth, and Yeah.
英格兰国王们基本上要么像约翰那样设法逃避，要么像亨利二世那样，通过杀害坎特伯雷大主教来应对。
English kings sort of basically, you know, they can try to weasel their way out as John did or as Henry the second, you know, by killing the archbishop of Canterbury.
但归根结底，教皇才是权力的操盘手。
But, basically, the pope is is the is the the pope is the power broker.
他在这种关系中是主导人物。
He's the he's the dominant figure in that relationship.
是的。
Yeah.
它是中心，我是说，这是一个伟大的朝圣之地。
It's it's it's the center I mean, it's the great place of pilgrimage.
耶路撒冷处于穆斯林统治之下。
Jerusalem is under Muslim rule.
是的。
Yeah.
所以太远了。
So it's too far.
但在中世纪的大部分时间里，除了教皇前往阿维尼翁的时期，罗马都是那个伟大的宫廷，它既是世俗的权力中心，也是精神的中心。
But but Rome is for most of the Middle Ages, apart from when the popes go to Avignon, is the that's the that's the kind of the great court, and it's an earthly as well as a spiritual power.
因此，英格兰与它确实有一种边缘性的关系。
So, absolutely, England has a kind of peripheral relationship to it.
而且除此之外，意大利也越来越成为文化和经济强国。
And on top of that, of course, and Italy is also a cultural and an economic powerhouse increasingly.
是的。
Yeah.
我本来想问问关于
I was gonna ask about the
中世纪。
middle ages.
文化关系。
The cultural relationship.
所以像乔叟这样的人。
So people like, let's say, Chaucer.
我的意思是，乔叟一定对意大利文化以及所有这些东西有所了解，对吧？
I mean, Chaucer must have a sense of Italian culture and and all that stuff, does he?
当然。
Absolutely.
嗯，乔叟的情况是，这与文化交织在一起，抱歉，是与经济实力交织在一起，因为乔叟去意大利的原因是为了协商羊毛贸易协议。
Well, Chaucer so and it's it's kind of interwoven with the cultural with, sorry, with the economic power Because the reason that Chaucer goes to Italy is to negotiate trade deals over wool.
他想改善贸易协议，绕过中间商，这样可以促进贸易，让更多的资金直接流入英国国库，而不是流向低地国家的中间商。
He wants to improve trade deals cutting out middlemen so that, you know, this this boosts trade and boosts the amount of money that goes directly into English coffers rather than to middlemen in in the lowlands.
所以乔叟去了热那亚。
So Chaucer goes to Genoa.
然后他又去了佛罗伦萨。
He he then goes on to Florence.
而在佛罗伦萨，他很可能遇到了薄伽丘，这位作家以
And, of course, in Florence, he may well have met Boccaccio, who is the Author with
卡梅隆。
the Cameron.
是的。
Yes.
因此，这一系列相互关联的故事几乎为《坎特伯雷故事集》提供了模型。
So this kind of great series of interlinked tales, which almost, you know, provides a model for the Canterbury tales.
他还可能见过乔托的画作。
And he may have seen Giotto, Giotto's paintings.
所以乔叟是一个非常欧洲化的人物，深受意大利文化的影响，这种影响对他至关重要，就像对每一个前沿的英国作家和艺术家一样。
So he's Chaucer is a a very European figure and hugely influenced by kind of you know, Italian culture is massively significant for him as it is basically for every cutting edge English writer, artist.
意大利是文化中心。
Italy is the is the cultural center.
是的。
Yeah.
但另一方面，他去那里是因为意大利极其富裕。
But there's also that cent you know, the he's going there because Italy is is incredibly rich.
而且，英格兰的经济状况相对而言有些落后——当然，并非完全如此。
And, again, England is kind of economically sub I mean, not entirely.
所以，爱德华时期，意大利开始出现银行和银行家族。
So so Edward so so you you start to get banks in Italy, these banking families.
对。
Yeah.
因此，爱德华一世向卢卡的一个银行家族借了巨额款项。
So Edward the first borrows obscene amounts from a banking family in Lucca.
然后英格兰和法国之间爆发了战争。
And then there's a war between England and France.
出现了一些混乱。
There's there's a kind of snarl up.
发生了信贷紧缩。
There's a credit crunch.
爱德华需要向这个银行家族借钱。
Edward needs money from this banking family.
他要求还款。
He demands it.
他们无法偿还，因为他们没有流动资金。
They can't pay it because they don't have access to to ready cash.
于是爱德华没收了他们在英格兰的所有财产。
So Edward then appropriates all their belongings in England.
这做法太不地道了吧？
It's poor form, isn't it?
这非常不地道。
It's very poor form.
这几乎毁掉了这家银行，同时也重创了英格兰的经济。
It kind of destroys this bank, but it also cripples England's economy.
因为从那时起，我们就再也借不到钱了。
Because from that point on, it's we can't borrow it.
这是完全自毁的行为。
Completely self destructive behavior.
是的。
Yes.
在整个十四世纪，英格兰的国王们不断被迫接受越来越屈辱的条件，最终还是违约了。
And over the course of the fourteenth century, the English kings have keep kind of having to agree ever more humiliating terms and then get driven to default.
在十四世纪的英格兰，我的意思是，它简直就是欧洲经济中的阿根廷。
And basically England in the fourteenth century, I mean, it's kind of it's the Argentina of the European economy.
它有点
It's kind
向我们的阿根廷听众致歉。
of Apologies to our Argentine listeners there.
但你知道，这就像英国与国际货币基金组织有着一种第三世界国家般的关系。
But it's end of you know, it's it's a kind you know, it has a third world relationship to the IMF.
是的。
Yeah.
就是这种状况。
It's it's that it's that kind of thing.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我认为，这一时期英国的情况可以说是截然不同的两部分。
So I think, know, England is it it's in this episode, it's very much a game of two halves.
上半场，英国以0比6落后。
And the first half, England is kinda losing six nil.
对。
Right.
哦，这真是太令人失望了。
Oh, that's very disappointing.
那么伦巴第呢？伦巴第人在哪里出现，汤姆？
What about the Lombard where where do the Lombards come in, Tom?
我们是在伦巴第街和伦巴第银行吗？
Are we in Lombard Street and Lombard bankers?
这是不是指这个
Is that this
所以伦巴第街可以说是伦敦的华尔街，对吧？
same So so Lombard Street is the kind of the main I mean, it's called the Wall Street of Love London, isn't it?
它现在是银行高度集中的地方，从银行站开始延伸。
It's kind of the great concentration of banks now running from from bank tube station.
它的名字来源于来自伦巴第的金匠。
And it's named after goldsmiths from Lombardy.
而且again，这是爱德华一世时期的事。
And again, it was it's Edward the first.
他赐予这些来自伦巴第的金匠一块土地，而他们便以自己的名字命名了后来的伦巴第街。
He gives these goldsmiths from Lombardy a plot of land, and that's what they then give their name to what becomes Lombard Street.
所以你看，这又像是一种发展中国家希望吸引外资，或者如今英国也想吸引外资的情况。
So again, you see that again, a bit like a kind of a third world economy wanting to attract inward investment, or indeed Britain now, actually, wanting to attract inward investment.
你处于一种弱势地位，无法掌控经济上的恩惠分配。
You're in an inferior position to those who are able to hand out the the economic patronage.
因此，这又是另一个指标。
So, again, that's a kind of another index.
你不会看到意大利城市把土地赐予英国商人，因为他们根本不需要。
You you're not getting Italian cities kind of giving plots of land to English merchants because they they don't need it.
如果你是一个非常聪明、成功的意大利人，英格兰根本不是你会搬去的地方。
And if you're a sort of very bright, successful Italian, mean, I England is not really the place you'd move to.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，我知道确实有意大利人会去。
I mean, I know Italians do.
所以探险家约翰·卡伯特，原本的名字我不知道是什么。
So John Cabot, the explorer, was originally I don't know what it was.
好像是卡博托之类的，对吧？
Cabotto or something like that, wasn't he?
我记不太清了，可能搞错了
I I can't I probably got
完全搞错了，但我
that completely wrong, but I
觉得大概是这么个名字。
think it's something along those lines.
但总的来说，一个有抱负的年轻意大利人，如果你来自银行世家，或者想外出闯荡、追求财富，英格兰并不是一个显而易见的目的地，因为它有点落后。
But by and large, an ambitious young Italian, if you're from a banking family or, you know, you're you want to go out and seek your fortune in the world, England is not the obvious destination because it's a bit of a backwater.
我的意思是，你显然更可能去法国或者
I mean, your obvious destination is presumably France or
或者 是的。
or Yeah.
你知道的，卡斯蒂利亚或者别的什么地方。
You know, Castile or somewhere.
我觉得这是对的。
I think that's true.
我的意思是，你众所周知的是，那些威尼斯大使的记录，关于英国的。
I mean, you know, obviously, that you do famously, get the Venetian ambassadors whose accounts of Yeah.
他们总是写得非常
They're always writing really
英国的出色情况是
good doings in in England is
是的。
Yeah.
一个极其有用的资料来源。
An incredibly useful source.
但这有点像，你知道的，再次，一位国际货币基金组织官员从战乱地区撰写报告
But it is a bit like, you know, again, a a kind of IMF official writing reports from a a war torn
是的。
Yeah.
独裁政权之类的。
Dictatorship or something.
来自拉巴斯之类的。
From La Paz or something.
对。
Yes.
有点像那样，我觉得。
A bit a bit like that, I think.
当然，到了十六世纪，随着宗教改革，这种关系变得极其复杂。
And then, of course, the the relationship becomes massively complicated in the sixteenth century with the reformation.
是的。
Yes.
因为显然，当时的教皇都是意大利人。
Because, obviously, the popes are all Italian at this stage.
对吧？
Right?
教皇，没错，是吧？
The pope that that's right, isn't it?
所以亨利八世闹翻的所有教皇，都是意大利人，来自罗马本身。
So all the popes that Henry the eighth falls out with, they are Italians and Rome itself.
我一直很好奇，你之前提到的关于人们心中地图的那一点，是否在宗教改革的想象中起到了作用。
I've always wondered whether that point you made earlier about the the the sort of the the map that people have, whether that plays a part in the reformation imagination.
罗马一直被认为是世界的中心。
So Rome has always been the center of the world.
当亨利说，‘我们的王国是一个帝国’，基本上无视教皇和他所有的红衣主教，他们根本不在乎他们的想法。
And when Henry says, you know, this realm of ours is an empire and, you know, basically sod the pope and and all his cardinals, but they don't care what they think.
有一种感觉，我们厌倦了被提线木偶师操控，还带着一种反抗令人尴尬的权威的意味。
There's an there's a sense of, you know, we're sick of being the puppet controlled by the puppet master, and there is that almost the element of rebelling against the cringe
正是如此。
in that.
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是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，亨利被迫驱逐教皇，这一事实本身就说明了英格兰的边缘地位。
Well, I mean, the the very fact that that Henry is forced into, you know, kind of throwing the pope out Yeah.
放弃英格兰教会对教廷的忠诚，反映了英格兰的边缘地位。
Abandoning the English church's loyalty to the papacy is an index of England's marginal status.
因为教皇无法批准亨利的离婚请求，是因为教皇被查理五世皇帝控制了。
Because the reason that the pope can't grant the divorce to Henry is because the pope has been captured by Charles the fifth, the emperor.
对。
Yes.
而凯瑟琳·阿拉贡是他的姨母。
And he Catherine of Aragon is his aunt.
是的。
Yeah.
所以亨利在权力平衡中没有被重视。
So Henry doesn't register in the balance.
是的。
Yeah.
他没那么重要，是吧？
He's not as important, is he?
只是没那么重要。
Just not as important.
我的意思是，没那么重要。
I mean It's not as important.
我们即将推出关于亨利八世的播客，而亨利总是试图站在舞台中央，与法国国王和皇帝平起平坐。
We've got a Henry the eighth podcast to come, and Henry's always he's always trying to be on at center stage with the king of France and the and the emperor.
但他显然在这三者关系中排在第三位，这显然让他很恼火。
But he's very much clearly the third man in that kind of relationship, which clearly irritates him.
我总在想，这是否就是他变得如此肥胖的原因——他迫切地想把他们挤下舞台，让自己看起来比实际更庞大、更重要。
I always wonder whether that's why he became so fat because he's just desperate to kinda push them off stage, make himself look bigger, more important than he was.
但我觉得，这显然重新定义了英格兰与罗马教会乃至整个意大利文化的关系。
But I think I mean, that does then then recalibrate, obviously, England's relationship, not just with with the Roman church, but with Italian culture generally.
意大利仍然是文化人物围绕的中心。
Italy remains very much the kind of sun around which people of culture revolve.
我想，这方面的经典例子就是莎士比亚，他的许多戏剧都以意大利为背景。
And I suppose the classic example of that would be Shakespeare, loads of whose plays are set in Italy.
嗯，我想我知道有人真的想聊聊莎士比亚，因为确实有一种理论，对吧？
Well, I suppose I know once really wants to ask about Shakespeare because there is a theory, isn't there?
这听起来是个荒诞的理论，我觉得，那就是莎士比亚的戏剧并非由一个叫威廉·莎士比亚的人所写，而是由一位名叫约翰·弗洛里奥的意大利人或意大利后裔所创作。
An outlandish theory, it seems to me, that Shakespeare well, it's one of these many conspiracy theories that the Shakespearean plays were not written by a man called William Shakespeare, but there's one theory that they were written by an Italian or a man of Italian extraction called John Florio.
你听说过这个说法吗？
Are you aware of this?
我之前不知道。
I wasn't.
给我讲讲更多细节。
Tell me more.
哦，我还以为你知道呢。
Oh, I was hoping you were aware of it.
这些就是我知道的全部了。
That's basically all I know.
嗯，我知道有一种相当普遍的说法，关于莎士比亚那些缺失的年份。
Well, I I I know that there's a quite widely held theory that shape you know, Shakespeare has these missing years.
是的。
Yes.
没人确切知道他去了哪里。
And nobody quite knows where he went.
而他对意大利展现出的那种熟悉程度
And the the familiarity that he shows with Italy
对。
Yeah.
没错，正是如此。
Well, exactly.
这就是弗洛里奥理论，他认为莎士比亚对意大利了解得太多了。
This is the Floro thing that he knows Shakespeare knows too much about Italy.
所以但他就这么做了，他只是这么做了。
So but took it, he just has done that.
克伦·托马斯·克伦威尔，就是那个推动了英格兰宗教改革的人，他曾经去过意大利。
Crom Thomas Cromwell, who, you know, launches the whole reformation in England, he had been in Italy.
在意大利。
In Italy.
是的。
Yeah.
他曾经去过意大利。
He had been in Italy.
所以这是一条相当成熟且被验证过的路径。
So that's that's kinda quite a tried and tested path.
而这个观点和理论是，也许莎士比亚无论是当兵的、老师，还是其他身份
And the idea and the theory is is that maybe Shakespeare, whether it a mercenary or a teacher or whatever
但莎士比亚对地理的描述不是很准确，对吧？
But Shakespeare's geography is dodgy, isn't it?
因为这是《冬天的故事》里，有人坐船去维也纳之类的场景。
Because it's it's in the winter's tale where somebody gets a ship to Vienna or something like that.
从波希米亚。
From Bohemia.
从波希米亚。
From Bohemia.
没错，就是从波希米亚。
That's it from Bohemia.
但我不认为有人真建议你去过波希米亚。
But I don't think anyone's suggesting you went to Bohemia.
但也许他——你知道的，想想所有设在威尼斯和罗马的戏剧，是吧。
But perhaps he but but, know, but you think of all the play all the plays that are set in Venice and Rome Yeah.
当然还有维罗纳。
And, of course, Verona.
是的。
Yeah.
罗密欧与朱丽叶。
Romeo and Juliet.
是的。
Yeah.
我想现在的问题是，对于那些在十六世纪末、十七世纪初观看这部剧的人来说，这意味着什么？你觉得呢？
I suppose now so what does that mean to those people who are seeing it, do you think, at that sort of turn of the the end of the sixteenth, beginning of the seventeenth century?
当他们看到这部设定在意大利的戏剧时，这是否意味着——尽管意大利是教皇的所在地，罗马在人们心目中几乎是反基督的中心，但他们对剧中充满同情的意大利角色却毫无抵触？
When they're seeing this play set in Italy, does that denote I mean, that presumably doesn't denote even though Italy is the the the home of the pope and Rome is the sort of headquarters of the Antichrist in in people's minds, presumably, that they have no problem with seeing plays set in Italy with a sympathetic Italian carrier.
这一定仍然向他们传达着高雅文化、精致品味、宜人的气候、柑橘类水果，
And that must still denote to them high culture, sophistication, lovely weather, citrus fruits,
所有这些不同的元素。
all these different things.
想想看，剧中对为罗密欧和朱丽叶主婚的修士的刻画非常富有同情心。
Think about it, there's a very sympathetic port portrait of the friar who weds Romeo and Juliet.
对。
Yes.
他在剧中并不是一个特别被贬低的对象。
He's he's not a kind of particular object of abuse in the play.
是的。
Yeah.
他并不是那种耶稣会式的阴谋家。
He's not a Jesuit sort of conspiratorialist.
所以也许，我的意思是，这反映了对天主教的同情。
So maybe, I mean, maybe that reflects, sympathy for Catholicism.
莎士比亚的作品中有很多天主教徒。
Lots of peep in Shakespeare's art.
很多人都持这种观点。
Lots of people have argued that.
你知道，很难确定，因为莎士比亚的人物性格非常模糊。
You know, it's so it's so difficult to know because Shakespeare's character is so opaque.
对。
Yes.
但确实如此。
But Yeah.
但如果你将这一点与同时代其他剧作家对意大利的描绘进行比较，他们的作品要更具宣传性得多。
But if you compare that with, other playwrights who are doing portrayals of Italy at the same time, they're much kind of they're much more propagandistic.
因此，在那些詹姆斯一世时期的悲剧中，你只要出现一位枢机主教，他就一定会觊觎自己的妹妹、毒害他人，而且确实如此。
So you have all these Jacobean tragedies where you only have to to have a cardinal, and he's, you know, fancying his sister and poisoning people and Yeah.
类似这样的桥段——毒害圣经、亲吻头骨，诸如此类。
That kind of thing, poisoning bibles and kissing skulls and things like that.
在这些剧中，意大利被描绘成一个彻底的污秽之地，充满堕落、谋杀、强奸和乱伦。
And and in those plays, Italy is is portrayed as an absolute kind of sump of potpourri, depravity, murder, rape, incest.
所有可能的罪恶都在其中上演。
Every sin possibly going is there, is is is taking part.
我认为这确实标志着英格兰与意大利关系的重大转变，这一点或许可以用弥尔顿这位虔诚的新教徒的观点来概括。
And I think that that that that does kind of mark a sea change in England's relationship to Italy, which is perhaps summed up by Milton, kind of devout Protestant
是的。
Yeah.
清教徒前往意大利。
Puritan, going to Italy.
而且弥尔顿深受意大利文化的影响。
And it Milton is hugely, profoundly influenced by Italian culture.
你知道，他能流利地说意大利语。
You know, he speaks Italian fluently.
他对伟大的意大利诗人的作品了如指掌。
He's absolutely versed in in the works of the great Italian poet.
雷德先生，但丁。
Mister Red Dante
是的。
and Yes.
当然。
Absolutely.
但他去意大利是一次文化朝圣。
But he goes to Italy on a kind of cultural pilgrimage.
显然，这并不是他那些英国先辈们那种朝圣，因为他是个清教徒。
Obviously, not a a pilgrimage of the kind that, you know, his English forebears had because he's Puritan.
但他确实据说去拜访了一个人，那就是伽利略。
But he he one person he does go to see supposedly is Galileo.
好吧。
And Okay.
他在他的伟大诗作《失乐园》中提到了这一点。
He he he references it in Paradise Lost, his great poem.
他说伽利略是一位伟人。
And he says Galileo is a great man.
你知道，他打开了无数个前所未见的世界。
You know, he has opened up untold worlds, unglimpsed worlds.
正是弥尔顿首次阐明了后来成为伟大神话的观点：伽利略被宗教裁判所、被罗马教会所有邪恶的机制所压制和折磨。
And it's Milton really who articulates what will become the great myth that Galileo has been silenced and tortured by the the Inquisition, by all the evil apparatus of the of the Roman church.
等一下。
Hold on.
这是一个神话吗？
Is that a myth?
这是一个神话，程度上是因为伽利略并没有被折磨。
It it's a myth it's a myth to the degree that, Galileo is not tortured.
他也没有被监禁。
He's not imprisoned.
对。
Right.
他确实必须，但他
He he He must but he
他确实承受了巨大压力，不是吗？
was put under enormous pressure, though, wasn't he?
他受到了压力，但我认为我们应该做一期关于伽利略的节目，因为
He's put under pressure, but I think we should do an episode on Galilee because
整个
the whole
这个故事非常引人入胜。
story is so fascinating.
我得说，你用一种漫不经心的方式描述了这种压力。
Describing this pressure in a very blase way, I have to say.
我想说的是，弥尔顿夸大了罗马教廷的压制性特征。
What I would say is that that Milton bigs up the repressive character of the Roman church.
是的。
Yeah.
这种说法深刻影响了新教徒对天主教与天文学、科学之间关系的看法。
In a way that will have an enduring influence on the way that Protestants see the Catholic church's relationship to astronomy, to the sciences.
这正是我
That's how I
认为它有效的原因。
think it's effective.
从长远来看，这进一步影响了无神论者或世俗主义者看待这一问题的方式。
And that then, in the long run, bleeds into the way that, say, atheists or secularists like to cast it.
是的。
Yeah.
这基本上是一个新教神话。
It's it's basically a protestant myth.
菲利普·普尔曼很棒，我的意思是，从这个角度来看，菲利普·普尔曼是弥尔顿的继承者，对吧？
Philip Pullman is a great I mean, so Philip Pullman is the heir of Milton in this regard, isn't he?
当然，《失乐园》在菲利普·普尔曼的作品中占据了极其重要的地位。
Well, obviously, Paradise Lost plays an enormous part in Philip Pullman's.
所以，我认为菲利普·普尔曼——我不知道他是不是这个播客的听众。
And so so Philip Pullman, I imagine, is not I mean, I don't know if he's a listener to this podcast.
我们假设他不是。
Let's assume not.
他并不是那种意义上的意大利人或相关领域的专家。
He's he's not a great Italian or a file in that sense.
他很可能认同这种黑化传说。
He would probably sign up to the sort of black legend.
我是说，黑传说原本是针对西班牙的，对吧？
I mean, black legend was a Spain, isn't it?
但它有点类似。
But it's kind of equivalent.
那种将罗马教会描绘成压抑、无知、偏狭和不容异己之渊薮的黑传说，嗯，其中确实有些事实依据，但被英格兰新教徒极大地放大了。
The the the the black legend that that casts the Roman church as a kind of sump of of repressiveness and, ignorance and bigotry and intolerance is, I mean, you know, there are elements of truth in it, but it gets massively amplified by Yeah.
英格兰新教徒。
English Protestants.
而由于英国和美国在文化上一直是新教国家，这种观念逐渐渗透进了后基督教时代的态度中，比如对基督教的敌意，这常常实际上是一种
And it has then because, you know, England and America have culturally been Protestant, it's kind of bled into post Christian attitudes, you know, hostility towards Christianity, which is often a kind of
是的。
Yeah.
反天主教情绪。
Anti Catholicism, really.
现在制片人告诉我们该休息了。
Now the producer is telling us we have to go for a break.
但我认为现在正是绝佳的时机，多米尼克，因为我觉得这就像一场上下半场分明的比赛。
But I think that's the perfect moment, Dominic, because I think this has been very much a game of two halves.
上半场意大利占尽优势，但我认为英格兰在下半场仍有翻盘的希望。
And the first half, Italy is dominated, but I think there are there's hope for England to come back in the second half.
好的。
Okay.
太棒了。
Jolly good.
我正想说呢，正好趁我们休息前插一句，因为这跟现在的话题很契合。
I was just about to say, and I'll just put it in, because it fits here, just before we go for the break.
意大利现在领先，但这一点只是顺便提一下。
So Italy are winning, but, this is just a sort of footnote to that.
我们有一位听众叫迈基，他问：你们会不会在播客里提到马里奥·莫德纳？
We had a listener called Mikey who said, if you don't are you gonna mention Mario Modena in your podcast?
如果你们不提，我就不告诉你们他具体说了什么，但他表示，要是你们不提，他会在暖水袋里吓到失禁。
If you don't, I won't tell you exactly what he said, but he would said he would soil himself in a warming pan.
对。
Right.
他们本来要提一下的。
They were gonna mention it.
我们必须提到她，我觉得现在就是时候了。
We have to mention her, and I think this is the moment.
所以玛丽·德·莫德纳是詹姆斯二世的妻子，对吧？
So Mary of Modena was the wife of James the second, wasn't she?
她在光荣革命前夕意外生下了一个健康的男婴。
And she gave birth unexpectedly to a healthy baby boy just before the dwarf dwarfs revolution.
那么问题来了，婴儿是不是被藏在暖炉里偷运进来的？
Well, this is the question, or was a baby smuggled in in a warming pan?
这就是迈基威胁的原因。
Hence, Mikey's threat.
当詹姆斯二世被赶下台后，他去了哪里？
Well, when James the second was kicked out, where did he go?
那么，詹姆斯党人最终去了哪里？
And where where where did the Jacobites end up?
我的意思是，詹姆斯党的总部实际上是在罗马。
I mean, the headquarters of Jacobitism was Rome, actually.
我认为这进一步巩固了罗马作为反英格兰典范的声誉，你觉得呢？
And that sort of cemented, I think, Rome's reputation as the sort of anti England par excellence, don't you think?
是的。
So Yeah.
老僭王、小僭王，还有最后一位詹姆斯党人，我想他是亨利，他们称他为亨利九世吗？
The old pretender, the young pretender, and then the last Jacobite who I think was Henry the was he Henry the ninth as they called him?
他是一名枢机主教。
He was cardinal.
在罗马至今仍有一座纪念他们的纪念碑，大概所有新教英国人在参观圣彼得大教堂时，都会对它感到恐惧，因为我觉得它就在圣彼得大教堂的某个地方。
And there's a monument to them still in Rome, a monument that presumably all sort of Protestant Englishmen when they go on their trudging around Saint Peter's, they regard with horror because I think it's somewhere in Saint Peter's.
所以，这对我来说就是一个转折点，因为正是从这时起，罗马开始与失败者——詹姆斯党人——联系在一起。
So so that's just to me is the sort of tipping point because that's the point at which Rome is associated with with losers, the Jacobites.
显然，在那一刻，英格兰乃至英国资本主义的引擎开始轰鸣，英国似乎逐渐超越了意大利。
And, obviously, at that point, the engines of kind of English and then British capitalism begin to roar, and and and there's a sense of Britain kind of overtaking Italy.
基于以上所有内容，我们将在下半场实现逆转。
And, we will make a second half comeback based on all that.
我们中场休息后见。
So we'll see you after the break.
你好。
Hello.
欢迎回到《英格兰对阵意大利》的下半场。
Welcome back to the second half of England against Italy.
正如我在上半场所说，这很可能会是一场典型的上下半场截然不同的比赛。
As I said in the first half, think it's gonna be very much a game of two halves.
上半场完全是意大利压着英格兰打。
First half, it was all Italy, all over the English.
但我认为，现在英格兰完全有机会实现逆转。
But I think now there's every chance that England can do a comeback.
多米尼克，我恐怕第一半场我完全搞砸了。
Dominic, I I'm afraid I completely I completely hulked that first half.
不。
No.
不。
No.
确实如此。
It's quite right.
我觉得大家都看得很开心。
I think everybody enjoyed it.
不过，我觉得无论如何都是这样。
Well, I think anyway.
但第二半场，你看到了很多精彩内容，而且也
But the second half, you've got lots of good stuff, it also
必须是基于食物的。
has to be food based.
嗯，关于意大利面和饼干的内容很多。
Well, there's a lot about pasta and biscuits.
是的。
Yeah.
说实话，我认为人们听这个播客就是为了这个。
I think that's what people have come to this this podcast for, to be honest.
我不知道他们是不是冲着这个来的。
I don't know they've come about that.
我觉得他们以为我们跟教皇有关。
I think they think we're down by the pope.
他们就是想要那些该死的饼干。
They just want the bloody biscuits.
对。
Right.
那我们开始吧。
So let's start.
我觉得我们应该从壮游开始。
I think we should start with the grand tour.
因为壮游，正如很多人知道的，是十八世纪的一种现象，源自十七世纪末到十八世纪初，富有的年轻贵族们会进行这样一次伟大的旅行，简直就像一次超大规模的间隔年。
Because the grand tour, as a lot of people know, is a sort of eighteenth century phenomenon, late late seventeenth, early eighteenth century phenomenon of people going rich, young aristocrats and whatnot would kind of go on this great expedition, almost like a colossal gap year.
他们会去法国，有时还会去瑞士，但总是以意大利为终点。
They'd go to France and then sometimes go to Switzerland, and they'd always end up in Italy.
我的意思是，意大利始终是目的地。
I mean, Italy was always the place.
我想这确实印证了你在上半部分提到的关于罗马及其罗马帝国遗产的重要性，因为这就是他们要去观看的东西，对吧？
And and I guess this really reinforces what you were saying in the first half about the importance of Rome and the legacy of the Roman empire because that's what they're going to see, isn't it?
他们要去观看罗马的遗迹。
They're going to see Roman ruins.
我的意思是，吉本，爱德华·吉本，这位我奉为史诗级历史学家的人。
I mean, Gibbon, Edward Gibbon, who, you know, I I worship as this sort of titanic historian.
一位睿智而富有怀疑精神的历史学家。
A wise, skeptical historian.
没错。
Exactly.
就像一只猫头鹰。
Like an owl.
简直不可能
Like, couldn't have
不。
no.
我再也找不到比这更贴切的表达了。
I couldn't have put it better myself.
所以吉本在1763到1764年间前往意大利，他有一段非常著名的话。
So Gibbon goes in 1763 to '4, and there's this famous you know, he has these famous lines.
我无法忘怀，也无法言表当我第一次接近并踏入这座永恒之城时，内心所激荡的强烈情感。
I shall I can neither forget nor express the strong emotions which agitated my mind as I first approached and entered the eternal city and all this stuff.
然后他说，置身于罗马广场——罗慕路斯曾在此、西塞罗曾在此演说、凯撒曾在此倒下的地方——他几乎因兴奋而陶醉。
And then he says, you know, to to be in the forum, the place where Romulus was, where Cicero spoke, where Caesar fell, and he and he's he's almost drunk with excitement.
就在那时，稍后一点，他著名的坐在罗马城废墟之中，耳边是朱庇特神庙里修士们唱着晚祷，正是在这时，他萌生了撰写《罗马帝国衰亡史》的想法。
And it's then, it was a little bit later, that he's famously sitting among the ruins of the capital while the friars are singing vespers in the Temple Of Jupiter, and he has the idea of writing his decline and fall of the Roman empire.
因此，你能感受到，在十八世纪，罗马依然保留着某种巨大的影响力，尽管反天主教的情绪已有所消退。
So you get this sort of sense of it, how in the eighteenth century Rome still some of the anti Catholicism has has faded, but you still have this sense of the this sort of colossal sway.
我认为这种观点在当时相当普遍，比如约翰逊博士就说，一个没去过意大利的人，总会自觉低人一等，因为他没亲眼见过一个人本该看到的东西。
And that's kind of widespread, I think, across so doctor Johnson says a man who hasn't been to Italy is is always conscious of an inferiority because he hasn't seen what what a man ought to see.
没错。
That's true.
确实如此。
That's true.
但那也是废墟，不是吗？
But it's also it's ruins, isn't it?
确实如此。
It is true.
他们将看到的，是那些废墟——英国贵族们，还有吉本这样的人，都将目睹这些废墟。
They're gonna see what other So the English lords and people like Gibbon and and so on are are going to see ruins.
是的
Yeah.
而且
And
他们是有钱人。
they're the ones with the cash.
他们拥有豪华的马车。
They're the ones with the big chariot carriages.
基本上，他们去那里就是为了观赏意大利昔日辉煌的遗迹，并带回战利品。
And, basically, they they're there to to to gorp at, you know, the remnants of of Italian greatness and to bring back loot.
确实如此，但有些人去的原因更卑劣，更偏向肉体欲望，汤姆。
Well, they do, but they also go for some of them go for more sordid reasons, more more bodily reasons, Tom.
你知道博斯韦尔写过什么吗？
Because you know what Boswell wrote?
这是博斯韦尔在意大利期间日记里的典型语句。
Typical line from Boswell's diaries of his time in Italy.
想象一下。
Imagine.
昨天早上，她撩起裙摆，露出了整个膝盖。
Yesterday morning with her, pulled up petticoat and showed whole knees.
我被她的善良打动了。
I was touched with her goodness.
其他所有的自由都极为美好。
All other liberties exquisite.
是的。
Yeah.
但是但是但是
But but but
但波斯韦尔是苏格兰人，对吧？
Boswell He's was Scottish, though, isn't he?
所以也许这并不算数。
So maybe that doesn't really count.
此外，他在‘不’这一点上几乎毫无疏忽。
Also, he was hardly remiss in No.
这与伦敦的类似研究相似。
That's similar research in London.
所以这些人都去进行壮游，这将引出我真正想谈的话题——意大利面。
So all these guys go for the grand tour, and this is gonna bring me to the what I really want to talk about, which is macaroni.
所以这些人都去进行壮游。
So all these people go for the grand tour.
在英格兰，意大利面早已为人所知，因为最早的意大利面奶酪食谱出现在十四世纪初的一本关于咖喱的书中。
Now macaroni was known in England because the first recipe for macaroni cheese comes from, I think, very beginning of the fourteenth century in a book about curry.
这是一道令人困惑的食谱。
It's a recipe for confusing.
这是一道意大利面奶酪的食谱。
That's a recipe for macaroni cheese.
但显然，在此期间意大利面已被遗忘，因为这些人在意大利时尝到了意大利面，回国后不仅带回了对意大利面的热情，还带回了意大利风格的服饰。
But, clearly, macaroni had been forgotten in the intervening period because all these people, they get a taste for macaroni when they're in Italy, and then they come back and they bring back not just their enthusiasm for macaroni, but their, but Italian style dress.
我的意思是，有一些简直令人捧腹的引述。
I mean, there were some absolutely hilarious quotations.
所以他们开始说，我不知道这是否最初是他们之间的一种说法，像是那些信任之旅和间隔年老手之间的暗语。
So they start they they they say I I don't know whether it sort of starts as a saying among themselves, sort of these sort of trust affair and gap year veterans.
他们会说，哎呀，你今天看起来真像个意面佬，亲爱的，或者类似的话。
They say, oh, you're looking very macaroni today, darling, or whatever.
然后人们就开始嘲笑他们。
And then people start to mock them.
所以这是1770年的《牛津杂志》。
So the this is the Oxford Magazine in 1770.
确实出现了一种生物，既非男性也非女性，最近在我们中间出现了一种中性生物。
There's indeed a kind of animal, neither male nor female, a thing of the neuter gender lately started up among us.
它被称为意面佬。
It is called a macaroni.
它说话毫无意义。
It talks without meaning.
它微笑却无亲切之意。
It smiles without pleasantry.
它进食却无食欲。
It eats without appetite.
它骑马却不动筋骨。
It rides without exercise.
它寻欢却无激情。
It wenches without passion.
因此，这里有一种女性化的意味。
So there's a sort of sense of effeminacy.
基本上，这些是带着意大利时尚回来的男子。
And, basically, what's happening is these are guys who've come back with Italian fashions.
他们穿着五彩斑斓的长袜和非常紧身的短裤。
So they're wearing multicolored stockings, very sort of tight britches.
他们的外套被认为太短了。
Their coats are considered too short.
巨大的假发。
Massive wigs.
这些假发据说有一个人一半那么大。
And wigs that I mean, the claim is that these wigs were half the size of a man.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我不确定。
I mean, I don't know.
你看，他们实际上有点
You see And they actually kinda
由仆人携带。
be carried by servants.
是的。
Yeah.
然后他们在上面戴一顶小帽子。
And then they left a little hat on them on the top.
你只能用剑才能把帽子摘下来，因为它太高了。
And you could only get the hat off by with a sword because it was so high up.
而且，他们不吃烤牛肉，这总是个不好的迹象。
And also, they they didn't eat roast beef, which is always a bad sign.
嗯，确实如此。
Well, yeah.
我的意思是，他们不被看作是真正的英国人。
I mean, they weren't very they were seen as un British.
因此，两年后的1772年，《通志杂志》写道：当你靠近一个麦卡罗尼时，可以通过他的气息和香氛水来认出他，你会发现他的一切都极其夸张、离经叛道。
So the Universal Magazine, two years after that, 1772, said, you may know a macaroni when you come near him by his essence and his scented waters, and you will discover him by seeing everything about him most extravagantly, Outre.
他参加拍卖会，记下画家的名字，然后在各种场合不停地炫耀。
He attends at auctions where he picks up the names of painters and vomits them forth at all occasions.
这确实贯穿始终，不是吗？
That's that's a I mean, that kind of runs through, doesn't it?
所以，意大利舞蹈教师也是类似的问题。
So Italian dancing masters objects.
当然。
Absolutely.
滑稽可笑。
Hilarity.
我觉得你可以想到《看得见风景的房间》，还有西塞尔的一切。
And I think And you think of Room With A View with all with Sisel.
所以我认为所有这些都在反映这种意大利风潮。
So I think all of those things are picking up all this macaroni stuff.
所以我觉得狄更斯等人确实捕捉到了这种风气。
So I think Dickens and co are absolutely picking up.
实际上，多米尼克，你会说意大利歌剧在1790年的影响
Actually, Dominic, would you say the the influence of all the opera in Italia '90
是的。
Yeah.
在塑造一种略显女性化的、 feminizing 的足球风格吗？
In creating a kind of slightly effeminate Feminizing football.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这很有道理。
I think there's a lot of truth in that.
然后在二十世纪九十年代，意大利球员以及意大利足球登陆第四频道，成为了一种对足球的绅士化过程的一部分，即去工人阶级化、去阳刚化的进程。
And then the arrival of Italian players and of, indeed, of Italian football on channel four in the nineteen nineties was part of a sort of gentrification of, yeah, a de proletariat demasculine proletarianization of football.
因为那里存在一种矛盾心理。
Because there's a kind of there's a kind of ambivalence there.
一方面，人们觉得意大利人像是黑手党式地扑倒，不像我们勇敢的英国或英格兰前锋。
Because on the one hand, there is a sense of, Italy as, you know, mafiosi diving, unlike our brave British our brave English strikers.
是的。
Yeah.
我们绝不会那样做。
We would never do that.
所以确实有这种感觉。
So so there is that.
但当然，还有一种关于意大利面传统的感受。
But then, of course, there is also the sense of of, you know, this macaroni tradition.
关于意大利面，另一点是，这其中显然涉及大量与性取向和性别相关的内容。
The macaroni the other thing about the macaroni thing is there's obviously a whole lot of stuff about sexuality and gender kind of bound up with that about.
继续说。
Go on.
所以有人写过《说脏话》。
So so there's somebody wrote Talk dirty.
一本关于意大利面的日记，但我根本读不懂。
A journal of a a macaroni, and it and it reads like I can't read it at all.
这非常有趣。
It is very funny.
十一点起床。
Rise at eleven.
观察我的甜心，这是一本日记。
Survey my sweet this is a diary.
这就是他们白天做的事情。
This is what they do in the day.
对着镜子端详我甜美的脸庞，然后花半小时剔牙。
Survey my sweet face in the glass and pick my teeth for half an hour.
十二点吃早餐。
Breakfast at twelve.
我悠闲地走到公园，凝视着女性，只是为了博得有品味的名声。
I saunter to the park and stare at the women for the reputation of having a taste for them.
所以他这么做只是为了名声，并不是真的想盯着女人看。
So he's only doing it for the reputation, not because he wants to stare at the women.
然后他去咖啡馆，再去剧院。
And then he goes has goes to the coffee house, goes to the theater.
九点，带一位城里的女子去看莎士比亚戏剧，请她喝一瓶香槟，然后像来时一样把她留下。
09:00, take a woman of the town to the Shakespeare, treat her with a bottle of champagne, and leave her as I found her.
而令人诟病的是，他把她留下时，和当初找到她时一模一样。
And that and the sort of damning thing there is that he's leaving her as he found her.
他并不是在腐蚀她，因为这里的假设——或者说暗示——是他是个同性恋，这一切都只是做给别人看的。
He's not sort of debauching her because the assumption you know, the implication is because he's gay and all of this stuff is just for show.
所以总有一种说法，认为意大利人女性化，这种观念贯穿始终；我认为现在可能已经消失了，但没人会看着意大利队的队长乔治奥·基亚利尼，说他是个女性化的男人。
So that's kind of there is that always this stuff about Italian effeminacy, which runs through I mean, I think it's probably gone now, but it's no one would look at Giorgio Chialini, the captain of Italy, and say he's an effeminate man.
他不是那样的。
He's not.
他看起来就像从电影里走出来的古罗马百夫长。
He looks like a kind of Roman centurion from central casting.
但这种观念显然从十八世纪一直延续到二十世纪六十年代的摩登族时期，当时摩登族有时会被摇滚族贬低为女性化。
But but that obviously runs through from, I say, the eighteenth century to the mid 20 to mods, when mods were sometimes dissed by rockers as effeminate.
还带点意大利风格。
And a bit Italianate.
是的。
Yeah.
显然，意大利风格是因为他们穿着意大利时尚服饰，骑着踏板车，去咖啡馆之类的地方。
Obviously, Italianate because they wore Italian fashions, they had their scooters, and they went to coffee bars and things.
没错。
Exactly.
所以这确实与青年文化有关。
So there's so there's this kind of association with with youth culture Yeah.
时尚。
Fashion Yeah.
性别模糊。
Gender bending
完全正确。
Absolutely.
前沿。
Cutting edge.
所以是前沿。
So cutting edge.
于是洋基歌谣风靡一时。
And so the the Yankee Doodle went to town.
哇。
Wow.
是的。
Yes.
这太有趣了。
This is fascinating.
所以这是一个关于美国人落后的笑话。
So that's a joke about Americans being being backward.
落后还试图装时髦却失败了。
Being backward and trying to be trying to be macaronias and failing.
这真是件很奇怪的事，我们的美国听众会觉得这很奇怪，因为他们认为《扬基歌》是一首爱国歌曲，但它最初其实是英国红衫军在美国独立战争期间用来嘲笑美国人的讽刺歌曲。
So this is a really weird thing, and our American listeners will find this weird because they think of Yankee Doodle Dandy as the as a patriotic song as it's become it began as an insult that British redcoats would sing during the American war of independence to mock the Americans.
所以我认为第一段是这样的：扬基多德去了镇上，骑着小马，把一根羽毛插在帽子里，还管这叫马卡龙尼。
So the first I think it's the first verse, I don't know, Yankee Doodle went to town riding on a pony, stuck a feather in his cap, and called it macaroni.
基本上就是这个意思。
It's basically exactly that.
你知道，他们插一根羽毛在帽子上，是因为觉得这样能让自己看起来像个花花公子。
You know, they're putting a feather in their cap because they think it's gonna make them look like a dandy.
但他们想要留胡子。
But because they want to have beard.
你需要一顶巨大的假发。
You need a massive wig.
是的。
Yeah.
因为他们只是乡巴佬。
Because they're just hay seeds.
Exactly that.
Exactly that.
所以你就看到了这种传统，拜伦就是一个著名的例子，他是一位去意大利的贵族，写下了关于那里的废墟、美景，但也哀叹它如今已匍匐在地、受人摆布。
So so you get that tradition going through with Byron being the, you know, the famous example of a lord who goes to Italy, who who writes about its its, you know, its gibbon had done, about its ruins, about its beauty, about but also mourning the fact that it is it's basically prostrate and humiliated, that it's under the thumb
受人摆布。
of and under the thumb.
教堂。
The church.
它受奥地利人控制。
It's under the thumb of the Austrians.
它四分五裂。
It's fragmented.
它没有恢复昔日辉煌的希望。
There's no prospect of it recovering its former greatness.
但我想在十九世纪，它逐渐恢复了。
But then I guess over the nineteenth century, gradually, it does.
是的。
Yeah.
而这里的关键人物是
And the key man here
这就说到饼干了。
This is where the biscuits come in.
如果这里的关键人物是加里波第的话。
If the key man here is Garibaldi.
现在我要说到，嗯，也许我们应该从饼干开始。
Now I'll come to well, I maybe we should start with the biscuit.
对我来说，加里波第饼干是一种非常非常好的饼干。
Everybody, to me, a Garibaldi is a very, very fine biscuit.
我知道人们经常在推特上搞饼干世界杯之类的活动。
I know people often have these World Cups of biscuits on Twitter and so on.
世界杯是
World Cups are
一个荒谬的想法。
a ridiculous idea.
是的。
Yeah.
这太折磨人了，而且肤浅，不是吗？
It's so torture and shallow, isn't it?
不管怎样，它们在这些比赛中表现总是不如我认为的那样好，因为我觉得它是一种
Anyway, they have they have a Garibaldi never does as well in these competitions as I think it should because I think it's an
绝对有点无聊。
absolute bit boring.
不。
No.
我觉得加里巴尔迪饼干很棒。
I think the Garibaldi is a marvelous biscuit.
总之，听我说，多米尼克。
Anyway, listen, Dominic.
汤姆，你知道加里巴尔迪饼干是什么时候发明的吗？
Do you know when the Garibaldi was invented, Tom?
1865年。
1865.
天啊。
Oh, god.
你显然认真复习过这个。
You've clearly swatted up on it.
是1861年。
It's 1861.
是吗？
Was it?
是1860年。
It's 1860
是的。
Yeah.
我想它是以加里波第命名的。
He was I'm guessing it was named after Garibaldi.
真遗憾，听众们看不到你每次答对时有多孩子气地开心。
It's such a shame that listeners can't see just how childishly pleased you are that you always got it right.
所以，没错，加里波第，大多数人可能都 vaguely 意识到他是个穿红衬衫的人，而且他在意大利统一中起了关键作用。
So, yes, Garibaldi, you know, most people will have some vague awareness that he's a guy in a red shirt, and he is key in the unification of Italy.
因此，在意大利统一之前，他在英国就已经相当有名了，因为他曾试图在1848年领导一场革命，之后四处筹款。
So he was quite famous in in England before the unification of Italy because he was famous for his role in he'd he'd tried to lead a revolution in 1848, and then he'd gone around kind of trying to raise funds.
比如，他还去过美国。
So he'd gone to America too, for example.
实际上，他在1854年前往美国时，曾在纽卡斯尔停留过。
And, actually, when he was going to America in, I think, 1854, he stopped in Newcastle.
丹·杰克逊是这个播客的朋友，他总是给我们发一些他懂得比我们多得多的东西。
So Dan Jackson is a who a friend of the podcast is always tweeting us things that he knows far more about than we do.
嗯，几乎是总是这样。
Well, almost always
和纽卡斯尔有联系。
have a Newcastle link.
他们总是和纽卡斯尔有联系，而且他肯定比我们更了解这件事。
They always have a Newcastle link, and he will definitely know more about this than us.
加里波第于1854年9月3日抵达，向众多工人发表演讲，呼吁意大利统一和自由等理念。
Garibaldi arrives in 03/09/1854, he gives speeches to all these working men for Italian unification, for liberty, and so on.
这正是十九世纪中期工人团体和自由派人士非常支持的那种事业。
And this is precisely the kind of cause that's very popular with kind of, you know, working men's groups and sort of liberal minded people in the middle of the nineteenth century.
你知道的。
You know?
让我们建设意大利，摆脱这些古老帝国的枷锁，等等。
Let's build Italy, throw off the the shackles of it, these old empires, and so on.
他收到了一把由纽卡斯尔民众通过公众捐款购买的金剑，剑上刻着：‘赠予加里波第将军，泰恩赛德人民，欧洲自由之友，1854年4月。’
He's given a golden sword bought by public donation by the people of Newcastle, inscribed with the words presented to general Garibaldi by the people of Tyneside, friends of European freedom, April 1854.
天啊，我能想象丹说着这些话时那得意的样子。
God, can imagine Dan purring as he
哦，天哪。
Oh, dear.
给我讲讲这个。
Tell me about that.
没错。
Exactly.
于是，六年之后，加里波第迎来了他历史上最著名的时刻，他率领被称为‘千人远征军’的队伍登陆西西里，准备进攻由波旁王朝统治的两西西里王国。
So then, six years later, Garibaldi has his most famous sort of moments in history when he leads what's called the the expedition of Imile, the thousand, to land in Sicily, and he's gonna attack the kingdom in the 2 Sicilies, which is run by the Bourbons.
还有小饼干。
And small biscuits.
也是一种饼干，但那是后来的事了。
Also a biscuit, but but later.
这也是一种非常棒的饼干，我觉得，但不如加里波第饼干好吃。
Also a very good biscuit, I think, but not as good as a Garibaldi.
当时他在英国拥有巨大的支持，因为再次强调，他是一位自由的英雄，是自由的象征。
Now there's he has huge support in in England for this because, again, he's a liberal hero, sort of hero of liberty and stuff.
因此，成千上万英镑被捐赠来支持他的远征。
So tens of thousands of pounds are donated to help his expedition.
《泰晤士报》的战地记者全程跟随他，每一步都与他同行。
The Times War correspondent goes with him all the way or every sort of step of the way.
但至关重要的是，英国皇家海军支持加里波第在西西里的登陆。
But, crucially, the Royal Navy supports, Garibald's landings, in Sicily.
于是他们派出了汉尼拔号军舰——讽刺的是，竟然是汉尼拔号，还有两艘炮艇，阿耳戈斯号和因特雷皮德号，它们基本上让加里波第得以登陆，而波旁王朝的船只远不如我们，根本无法阻止他。
So they send HMS Hannibal, Hannibal ironically of all of all the ships to to send HMS Hannibal and two gunboats, Argus and Intrepid, And they basically make it possible for him to land the Bourbon ships, which aren't as good as ours, can't sort of do anything to stop him.
加里波第在西西里登陆。
Garibaldi lands in Sicily.
他占领了西西里，然后进军意大利，一路向那不勒斯推进，引发了一系列在我看来难以理解、令人困惑的重大事件。
He captures Sicily, then he goes over to Italy, he sort of marches up towards Naples and and sets in train this great sort of this great sort of series of, frankly, to me, incomprehensible and baffling.
但
But it
这最终确实涉及了对罗马的进军。
does it does ultimately involve a march on Rome.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
他们最终向罗马进军。
They march on Rome eventually.
没错。
Exactly.
教皇对此持敌对态度吗？
And the pope is hostile to this?
是的。
Yeah.
教皇
The pope
教皇声称他的教皇军队与加里波第的重要盟友皮埃蒙特王国作战，而这个王国可以说是
the pope is saying its papal troops fight against the kingdom of Piedmont, which is the Garibald's big ally and the sort
那么，这在英国反天主教舆论中反响如何？
of And so how is this playing with kind of anti Catholic opinion back in England?
我想是的。
I think so.
我的意思是，反响非常好。
I mean, incredibly well.
我是说，那些反天主教的人，但普通人简直太喜欢他了。
I mean, the anti Catholic people, but people generally absolutely love this.
所以到1864年，加里波第已经取得巨大成功，他回到伦敦时，据我所知，有五十万人涌上街头迎接他，这在当时简直难以置信。
So by 1864, when Garibald has had a lot of success and he comes back to London, there is I mean, he's met by, I think, half a million people in London on the streets, which is unbelievable when you in the in the con context.
一位自由斗士。
A freedom fighter.
他是一位自由斗士。
He's He's a freedom fighter.
他是个天主教徒。
He's a Catholic.
他什么都是，他住在
He's everything that He stays at the he stays at the
他住在斯塔福德府，人气之高，连仆人们都靠收集他洗脸盆里的肥皂水赚了大钱。
place called Stafford House, and he's so popular that the servants, make a fortune by by bottling the soap suds from his washbasin.
上帝就像甲虫一样。
God's like beetles.
而且卖这些东西正是如此。
And selling them to it's exactly that.
所以即使像帕尔默斯顿这样的人物也参与其中，当时还存在着巨大的贸易。
So but even with the great and the good ones seeing as well, little Palmerston and people like that, there was a massive trade.
加里波第是十九世纪被纪念得最多的名人之一，各种小纪念品和商品上都有他的形象。
Garibaldi is one of the most memorialized men of the nineteenth century in in knickknacks and merchandise.
所以有娃娃、盘子、茶壶、陶瓷制品和明信片，因为有他的照片。
So there's dolls, and there's plates, and there's tankers, and there's ceramics, and there's postcards because there's photos of him.
他在丁尼生的花园里种了一棵树。
He plants a tree in Tennyson's garden.
所以，基本上他就是一个名人。
So, basically He's a celebrity.
他是个名人。
He's celebrity.
意大利的统一，归功于我们。
Establishment of it of of Italian of Italy is it's down to us.
这是因为海军，也因为我们自己，还有加里波第。
It's because of the navy and because of down to us and Garibaldi.
还有一个足球方面的联系，因为他去发表了演讲，我想是在诺丁汉或诺丁汉郡，那个夏天的诺丁汉郡关联，意味着当人们开始组建诺丁汉森林足球俱乐部时，他们佩戴一种叫加里波第帽的红色流苏帽。
And there's a football link because, he goes and gives a speech, I think, in in Nottingham or Nottinghamshire or the summer Nottinghamshire connection, which means that when people start playing as Nottingham Forest football club, they wear red tasseled hats called Garibaldi hats.
后来，当他们觉得帽子不适合踢球时，就改穿红衬衫以纪念加里波第。
And then later on when they regard decide the hats are not suitable for football, they wear red shirts instead in honor of Garibaldi.
所以这和足球有关联。
So there's a football link.
英国各地至今仍有大量以加里波第命名的街道，比如加里波第街或加里波第路。
There are still tons of roads all across Britain called Garibaldi Street or Garibaldi Road.
至少有八家酒吧叫加里波第酒吧，还有那种饼干。
There are at least eight pubs, Garibaldi pubs, and the and the biscuit.
所以加里波第留下了惊人的遗产，而波旁家族根本无法与之相比。
So Garibaldi leaves this incredible legacy, and the Bourbons can't really compete.
他们也有饼干，但他们的饼干直到1930年代才加上名字，而那时它早已远近闻名。
They also have a biscuit, but their biscuit isn't launched until the '19 well, the biscuit is launched early, but they don't add their name to it till the nineteen thirties by which time it is far
太晚了，因为
too late because
我们知道，到了二十世纪三十年代，意大利已经由不同的势力管理。
Italy is under different management as we all know in the nineteen thirties.
我认为，我本质上是个保守派，所以我确实更喜欢波旁威士忌。
I think it's an index of my essentially reactionary character that I do actually prefer bourbons.
是的。
Yeah.
这确实是一场斗争，不是吗？
Well, that's a struggle, doesn't it?
是的。
Yeah.
你作为波旁派，什么都没学到，也什么都没忘记，或者说是的。
You have you as a bourbon, you have learned nothing and forgotten nothing or Yeah.
不管怎样吧。
Whatever it is.
我想不起来那是什么了。
I can't remember what it is.
但你作为一个直觉上的革命者。
But you you as a kind of instinctive revolutionary.
所以是的。
So yeah.
你热血澎湃。
You're red blooded
马克思主义。
Marxism.
没错。
Exactly.
没错。
Exactly.
你提到了足球。
You you mentioned football.
是的
Yeah.
当然，一个著名的细节是，AC米兰最初并不是作为板球俱乐部成立的吗？
Of course, the the the famous detail is that AC Milan, it not begin as a cricket club?
我觉得是的。
I think it does.
确实是的。
It does.
没错。
Exactly.
为什么它叫米兰而不是米兰诺？
Why it's called Milan rather than Milano.
是的。
Yes.
所以它是由英国人创立的，就像奥古斯丁来到坎特伯雷传播基督教一样。
So it's founded by English very much, know, rather like Augustine coming to Canterbury and spreading Christianity.
是的。
Yeah.
英国人来到米兰，成立了板球俱乐部，又成立了足球俱乐部。
English people go to Milan, set up a cricket club, set up a football club.
令人失望的是，意大利人对板球的兴趣不如对足球那么高
Disappointingly, the Italians aren't as keen on cricket as they are
对足球。
on football.
但我也相信，尤文图斯——这是意大利最受欢迎、全国范围支持最广的球队，不只是因为你在这里。
But also, I believe Juventus Juventus, which is by far the most popular Italian team supported all across Italy, not just since you're in.
你们知道，尤文图斯的黑白配色源自诺丁汉郡。
You've Juventus got their cut black and white colors from Knott's County.
所以这基本上更像是一个关于诺丁汉郡与意大利关系的播客，而不是
So the Nottingham this is basically a Nottinghamshire, Italy relations podcast rather than
因此，当意大利队在温布利球场比赛时，他们确实像是回家一样。
a So it really is the case that when when Italy play at Wembley, they will be coming home.
他们会回家的。
They will be coming home.
非常好。
Very good.
但是，汤姆，此时意大利在英国社会各阶层中都享有很高的声誉。
But, Tom, so at this point, Italy is thought of very well in in in in British circles, high and low.
但在二十世纪，可以说总体上人们对意大利人的政治形象评价很低。
But then in twentieth century, I think it's fair to say that by and large, people had very low opinion of the Italians politically.
所以在第一次世界大战初期，意大利似乎站在了另一边。
So in the first World War, Italy lines up as it were on the other side of the drawer at the beginning.
他们本应与德国和奥地利结盟。
So they're supposed to be in an alliance with with Germany and with Austria.
但大约一年后，他们彻底撕毁了这一联盟，背弃盟友，决定进攻奥地利。
And, basically, about a year into the war, they they completely break that alliance, stab their allies in the back, decide they're going to attack Austria.
他们这么做——我并不想显得有偏见，但很难为他们的行为辩护，因为他们的做法非常卑劣。
And they they they do that in the most I mean, it's very hard to I don't want to sound like I'm biased, but it's very hard to defend their behavior here because they do it in a very weasely way.
他们基本上对英国和法国说：你们愿意给我们什么，才让我们加入你们？
They basically say to Britain and France, what will you give us to join you?
我们要土地。
We want land.
我们要奥地利的领土。
We want Austrian territory.
所有英国政界人士都希望意大利站在他们这边。
And all the British sort of politicians, they want Italy on side.
但阿斯奎斯等人却将此描述为最贪婪、最狡猾、最背信弃义的势力。
But Asquith, for example, he described this as that most voracious, slippery, and perfidious power.
他说，尽管意大利贪婪且狡猾，但必须立即拉拢它。
It's it's important to bring Italy in at once, greedy and slippery as she is, he says.
丘吉尔称意大利为欧洲的娼妓。
Churchill described Italy as the harlot of Europe.
乔治勋爵说，他们是最可鄙的民族。
Lord George, they are the most contemptible nation.
杰基·费舍尔，时任第一海务大臣，曾说意大利人不过是街头卖艺的。
Jackie Fisher, who was the first sea lord, he said, the Italians are mere organ grinders.
根本毫无用处。
There will be no use whatsoever.
我能也来数落一下意大利吗？
Could I join in with some abuse of Italy?
说吧。
Do.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
所以第一次世界大战期间，他们显然站在了我们这边。
So First World War, obviously, they were on our side.
是的。
Yeah.
第二次世界大战，
Second World War,
极其血腥
incredibly bloody
第二次世界大战，他们不是。
Second World War, they weren't.
他们站在我们的对立面。
They were against us.
他们不是。
They weren't.
当然，由墨索里尼领导。
And led by Mussolini, of course.
和第一次世界大战一样，他们也是迟些参战。
Also entered late as they had in the First World War.
是的。
Yep.
是的。
Yep.
这是韦维尔发给我的。
I've been sent this by Wavell.
对。
Yeah.
不过，他不是亲自发给你的，对吧？
Well, he didn't send it himself, did he?
他说他自己说了这话，但我不是。
He said he said this himself, but I was No.
他没有发给你。
He didn't send it to you.
他说，我不是。
He said, I was No.
不是。
No.
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