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哦，死亡，请让我安眠。
Oh death, rock me asleep.
带给我宁静的安息。
Bring me the quiet rest.
让我不幸却无罪的灵魂，离开我忧虑的胸膛。
Let pass my weary guiltless ghost out of my careful breast.
这些诗句归于安妮·博林。
These lines are attributed to Anne Boleyn.
据说她在1536年于伦敦塔中写下这些文字，当时她正等待被一位专程从法国请来的剑客处决，而这位剑客是由她前夫——国王亨利八世——安排的，他的婚姻史曾激发了另一首诗：离婚、斩首、死亡、离婚、斩首、幸存。
She supposedly wrote them in 1536 in the Tower Of London as she was awaiting execution at the hands of a French swordsman who had been brought over especially for the purpose by her erstwhile husband, King Henry VIII, whose marital history, has inspired another poem, divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived.
还有多米尼克·桑布鲁克与我同在。
And Dominic Sandbrook with me.
这或许是英国历史上最著名、最灾难性的婚姻序列。
Probably the most famous the most famously disastrous sequence of marriages in English history.
在英国历史上。
Mean In English history.
在世界历史上。
In world history.
是的。
Yeah.
可能是整个历史。
Probably the whole of history.
当然。
Definitely.
是的。
Yeah.
这是一个无法抗拒的话题，不是吗？
It's an irresistible subject, isn't it?
我的意思是，这简直就是肥皂剧的素材。
I mean, it's the stuff of soap operas.
这正是历史剧的素材。
It's the stuff of costume dramas.
这简直是上千部第五频道纪录片的素材。
It's the stuff of about a thousand channel five documentaries.
嗯，我的意思是，你知道，我们已经进入七十年代了，我觉得。
Well, it's a I mean, you know, we're so we're well into the seventies, I think.
我们已经做了七十多集。
We've done over 70 episodes.
我们之前居然一直没做过一集，这有点不可思议。
It's kind of extraordinary that we haven't haven't really done one before.
是的。
Yeah.
这需要非凡的自我克制才能想到。
Was so in Herculean self restraint, think.
我想，如果我们是一家电视台，早就已经做了六部了。
I guess if if if we were, you know, if we were a TV company, we'd have done six on it already.
如果我们真会的话。
If we would.
实际上，我们之所以推迟制作亨利八世的六位王后这个题材，是因为多年来已有许多杰出的学者撰写过关于亨利八世统治时期的内容。
Actually, the reason why we have delayed it doing, the six wives of of Henry VIII, obviously, there've been many, many great scholars over the years who have, written about the reign of Henry VIII.
人们会想到杰弗里·埃尔顿爵士，J.
One thinks of sir Geoffrey Elton, J.
G.
G.
斯坎纳布鲁克，大卫·斯塔基。
Scannersbrook, David Starkey.
但这些学者现在迎来了一位新秀——多米尼克·桑德布鲁克。
But, these scholars have now been joined by a new kid on the block, Dominic Sandbrook.
多米尼克，你的书《亨利八世的六位王后》。
Dominic, your book, The Six Wives of Henry VIII.
汤姆，我不太喜欢你那种略带讽刺的语气，你知道的？
Tom, I don't like the slightly ironic way in which you you know?
不。
No.
但要解释一下，这本书是写给孩子们看的。
But to explain, this is this is written for children.
是的。
Yes.
绝对精彩。
Absolutely fabulous.
我昨晚读了，我这么说可不是随便说说。
I read it last night, and I'm not in any way just saying that.
我非常喜欢这本书。
I hugely enjoyed it.
我想你的另一本书是关于第二次世界大战的吧。
And I guess so your other book is on the Second World War.
亨利八世和第二次世界大战，这两个是你的两大主题。
Henry Henry VIII and Second World War, those are the two big topics.
但亨利八世，说实话，这真是一个永恒的经典，不是吗？
But Henry VIII, really, I mean, it's a it's a timeless classic, isn't it?
确实是。
It is.
而且，事实上，我一直以来对它有点怀疑。
And, actually, I was always a bit suspicious of it.
我从来不是都铎王朝或亨利八世六位妻子的狂热爱好者。
I was never a great aficionado of the Tudors or of the six wives of Henry VIII.
我总是对那种类似肥皂剧般的性质有点反感。
I always slightly bridled at the sort of, oh, I don't know, the sort of soap opera y nature of it.
但当我开始深入了解时，我却发现它根本无法抗拒。
But then when I started getting into it, I actually found it irresistible.
这部分是因为宫廷政治，以及那种《权力的游戏》式的床笫闹剧之类的种种事情。
And it's partly the court politics and the sort of Game of Thrones style kind of bed hopping shenanigans and all that stuff.
但事实上，这一切发生在一个历史的关键转折点上，伴随着巨大的宗教变革，这无疑是英国历史上最重大的政治和文化断裂。
But the fact is, it happens at an absolute hinge moment of history at the and against the backdrop of these colossal religious changes, which mean that this is the, without question, the biggest political and and cultural break in England's history.
所以
So
实际上和是的纠缠在一起。
an actually snarled up with with Yeah.
安iline的性吸引力
Anviline sex appeal
没错。
and Exactly.
亨利的欲望，所以奇怪的是，所有这些很容易被当作浮沫和八卦、某种都铎小报内容的东西，其实都至关重要。
Henry's lust and So the weird thing is that that all these things that it's very easy to dismiss as froth and gossip and the stuff of kind of some Tudor tattler, they really matter.
它们改变了数百万人的生活，而这正是它如此持久迷人之处。
They change the lives of millions of people, and and that's what makes it so enduringly fascinating.
嗯，我记得我第一次去卢瓦尔河谷时，大概是二十岁左右，参观了所有那些由亨利八世的同代人弗朗索瓦一世建造的令人惊叹的城堡。
Well, I I remember I the first time I went to the Loire must have been, I don't know, 20 or something, and visiting all these kind of incredible chateaus that had been built by Henry VIII's exact contemporary Francois Premier, Francis the first of
法国的
of
法国国王，你知道，那是一个比英格兰富裕得多、在许多方面也更先进的国家。
France, who was king of, you know, a much more much richer, in many ways, much more sophisticated country than England.
看着这些辉煌的文明成就，我感到有点敬畏。
And I felt kind of quite intimidated looking at these glories to to galax civilization.
但后来我想，是的。
But then I thought, yeah.
弗朗西斯一世有多少位妻子？
But how many wives did Francis I have?
亨利八世是个好得多得多的角色。
Henry VIII is a much, much better character.
是的。
Yeah.
他确实是。
He does.
有一种爱国的光辉。
A kind of patriotic glow.
听到这个真好。
Oh, that's good to hear.
听到这个真是太好了。
That's very good to hear.
嗯，弗朗西斯一世，我是说，亨利八世确实把自己与法国的弗朗西斯一世相比，他还拿自己跟其他人比较，毕竟当时主要有三位大国王，对吧？
Well well, Francis I I mean, Henry did measure himself against Francis I of France, and he also measured himself against so there are basically three big kings, aren't there, at
在这个时候？
this point?
其实主要有两位大国王，不是吗？
There are two big kings, aren't
对吧？
there?
嗯，有两位大国王试图加入这个俱乐部。
Well, there are two big kings who kind of kind of tried to join the club.
没错。
That's right.
所以有弗朗西斯或弗朗索瓦，还有西班牙的查理五世或卡洛斯，他同时也是神圣罗马帝国的统治者，极其富有，拥有庞大的领地。
So there's Francis or Francois, and then there's Charles or Carlos the fifth of Spain, who is also the ruler the Holy Roman Empire, is just unbelievably rich and has this massive dominion.
他拥有南美洲，可以说他是当时最强大的君主。
He's got South America, and he's I mean, he is by far the most potent monarch of the day.
可怜的老亨利，他只统治着英格兰，而且非常焦虑。
And poor old Henry, he just rules England, and he's desperate.
他极度渴望得到这两位君主的重视。
He's absolutely desperate to be taken seriously by these two guys.
他不断更换妻子，从不停歇。
He never and he's changing his wives all the time.
他身上有一种荒诞滑稽的元素，同时也带有令人恐惧和阴暗的一面。
And there's this sort of farcical comical element to him, as well as the sort of terrifying and more sinister element.
嗯，确实如此。
Well, he yeah.
我的意思是，我觉得他看起来滑稽，只是因为他确实显得滑稽。
I mean, I I I think he only seems comical if he does seem comical.
当然了，他在《 Carry On 》电影中由西德·詹姆斯扮演。
And, of course, he was played by Sid James in the Carry On film.
所以我认为这确实带有一丝喜剧色彩。
So I guess there is an slight element to the comic.
但近距离看，他其实是一个非常可怕的人物。
But but up close, I mean, he's a he's a very frightening figure.
而且他真的能与欧洲的大国王们正面抗衡，我认为这体现了他那种傲慢、权力和魅力，是的。
And the fact that he is actually able to go toe to toe with with the the great kings on the continent, I think our kind of measure of the swagger and the power and the charisma that he does have and Yeah.
而且这种感觉甚至非英语国家的人也能感受到。
And that that even non English people experience.
我的意思是，他是个非常、非常令人畏惧的人。
I mean, he's a very, very intimidating
但如果你不强调你刚才说的他的魅力，你就不会理解亨利八世。
But you don't get Henry Wright, I think, unless you say you emphasize exactly what you just said about his charisma.
所以当他成为国王时，他确实是一个非常令人印象深刻的人。
So when he becomes king I mean, he's a very impressive person.
他打网球。
He plays tennis.
他会写音乐。
He writes music.
他会写歌。
He writes songs.
他谈论语言。
He speaks on language.
他是不是很了不起？
Impressive, isn't he?
他非常高大。
Mean, he's very, very tall.
长得好看。
Good looking.
他肌肉发达，身材魁梧。
He's very muscular, very large.
英俊。
Handsome.
我的意思是，人人都说他英俊。
I mean, everybody says he's handsome.
他看起来像个国王，而且确实举止得体。
He looks like a king, and and he actually behaves.
他把国王的角色演得非常好。
He he plays the part of a king very well.
我的意思是，有一件事人们有时会忘记，那就是在当时的人看来，让他们印象深刻的并不是‘他是个彻头彻尾的怪物，又胖又怎么样’之类的。
I mean, that's one thing I think that sometimes people forget is that actually to people at the time, what strikes them is not, oh, he's a complete monster, and he's so fat and all this sort of stuff.
让他们印象深刻的反而是，他外表和举止都完全符合一个国王应有的样子。
What strikes them is he looks and behaves exactly as a king should.
即使他有时残忍无常，我认为在十六世纪的许多人看来，这些缺点或许令人遗憾，但总比软弱、优柔寡断、虔诚得过分、装模作样、优柔寡断像亨利六世那样要好——他总是在该杀人的时候祈祷。
And if he is sometimes cruel and capricious, I think to a lot of people in the sixteenth century, those things were sort of perhaps slightly lamentable, but they were better than being weak and dithery and pious and sort of a bit sanctimonious and waffly like Henry the sixth, for example, always praying when he should have been killing people.
是的。
Right.
他们喜欢强有力的统治者。
They like a strong ruler.
而亨利统治的时代背景正是玫瑰战争，兰开斯特的亨利六世如此无能，以至于最终被两次废黜。
And and and the context for Henry's reign is exactly the Wars of the Roses where Henry the sixth of Lancaster is so useless that he ends up kind of being deposed twice, basically.
是的。
Yes.
被亨利八世取代。
By Henry VIII.
对。
Yeah.
然后你实际上是从博斯沃思战役开始写你的书的，对吧？
And then you've you've got well, actually, you begin your book with with Bosworth, don't you?
从博斯沃思开始，是的。
With with Yeah.
因为我想说
Because I
我认为理解他的时代背景非常重要，这样人们才能明白，他首先并不是中世纪的人，而是早期现代的人。
think that's really important to understand his context so that he first of all, he doesn't know he's early modern rather than say medieval.
你知道吧？
You know?
他心里始终想着玫瑰战争。
He he at the back of his mind are the Wars of the Roses.
其次，他并不知道玫瑰战争已经结束了。
And second, he doesn't know that the Wars of the Roses are over.
所以我们通常认为，玫瑰战争在1485年结束了——那时他的父亲，一位来自家族旁支的威尔士冒险家，经过这场类似《权力的游戏》式的血腥厮杀后，成了最后的胜者。
So we conventionally think say, well, they ended in 1485 when his father, a Tudor, know, Welsh adventurer from a little branch of the family, basically is the last man standing after this great Game of Thrones style blood bath.
但亨利八世并不知道这一切都已经结束了。
But Henry VIII doesn't know that that's all over.
我的意思是，这两个亨利都不清楚。
I mean, neither of the two Henrys do.
对他们来说，他们总觉得随时可能爆发叛乱，旧势力和旧贵族可能正在密谋推翻他们——事实上，很多时候确实如此。
For them, they think there could be a revolt at any moment, that the old kind of guard, the old nobility could be plotting against them, which actually, frankly, a lot of the time they are.
因此，这种不安全感和恐惧，正是这一切围绕继承人问题展开的根源。
So, there's that sort of insecurity and that fear, and that lies behind this whole business of the son.
他必须有个继承人，因为他知道，如果我没有继承人，那么我父亲和我所做的一切都将化为乌有，那些杂种会重新夺回王位。
He has to have an heir, because he knows if I don't have an heir, then basically everything my dad and I have done will be for nothing, and those bastards will get the throne back again.
这种恐惧始终萦绕在他心头。
And that's at the back of his mind the whole time, that fear.
你知道，人们常说他偏执，经常读到类似‘亨利很偏执，就像斯大林那样’之类的说法。
You know, that people are this stuff about him being paranoid, which you often read, oh, Henry was paranoid, he was like Stalin or whatever.
我的意思是，他只是比你我更进一步地看待这个问题而已。
I mean, he's only paranoid in the sense that he takes it a little bit further than you or I might have done.
但坦白说，他所处的时代，如果你不先下手除掉别人，他们很可能就会杀了你。
But frankly, he lives at a time when if you don't kill people first, they probably will kill you.
不过，话虽如此，也说得通。
Although, I mean, fair enough.
但如果你要嫁给他，
But if you're marrying him,
我的意思是，是的。
I mean Well, yes.
我想你应该考虑到，这绝对是
I suppose you should It's definitely
一个需要记住的考量，不是吗？
a consideration to bear in mind, isn't it?
而且，随着他年纪增长，另一个需要考虑的问题是，他变得越来越胖，也越来越没有吸引力。
And, also, I suppose, the other consideration to bear in mind as he gets older is that he gets fatter and fatter and less and less attractive.
他的双腿开始长出化脓的溃疡，还散发出异味。
And he starts to get smelly, pus ridden ulcers all up his legs.
是的。
Yeah.
他
He
确实如此。
does.
最终变得非常胖，对吧，多米尼克？是的。
Ultimately, ends up so fat, does he not, Dominic Yeah.
他必须接受灌肠。
That he has he has to have enemas.
是的。
He does.
灌肠并不常见。
The enemas are rare.
不妨在你的书中提一下。
Conceivably mention in your book.
我知道你特别喜欢这个关于灌肠的细节。
I know you love this detail about the enemas.
基本上，任何读过我这本书的人，都觉得这个描述要么是书中最精彩的部分，要么是最不糟糕的部分——那就是亨利的医生们如何将一根油脂管插入他的肛门，然后连接到一根我认为是金属管的装置，再接上一个装满蜂蜜、牛奶、草药等物质的猪膀胱，接着把混合物挤进去。
Basically, anyone who ever encounters my book thinks this is either the best thing or the least worst thing in it, which is this description of how Henry's doctors would push this grease tube up his bottom, which was then attached to I think it's kind of a metal tube and it's attached to a pig's bladder that's filled with honey and milk and and herbs and stuff, and they squirt this.
想象一下，那个负责挤压的人会是什么感受。
I mean, imagine being the person who does the squirting.
他们就这样把混合物挤进去。
They squirt this.
这是
This is
这才是真正的顶级历史分析。
this is the kind of top historical analysis.
我担心你根本没理解杰弗里·埃尔顿的观点。
I'm afraid you just don't get with Sir Geoffrey Elton.
我正想说，杰弗里·埃尔顿会列这个清单吗？
I was about to say, is Jeffrey Elton going for the list?
我的意思是，也许他会。
I mean, maybe he does.
我不确定。
I don't know.
不会。
No.
不会。
No.
大卫·斯塔加德枯燥的
David Stargard's dreary
关于议会的论述。
stuff about parliament.
我确信大卫·斯塔加德对这些都很热衷。
I'm sure David Stargard goes in for all this.
是的。
Yeah.
或者安东尼奥·弗雷泽。
Or Antonio Fraser.
但没错，我的意思是，这并不会让他更平和、更理性。
But, yeah, I mean, doesn't make him any more even tempered, think.
而且对于王后们来说，尤其是在统治后期，情况肯定如此。
And probably for the wives, certainly, towards the end of the reign.
这是婚姻关系中一种略显不愉快的方面。
This is a kind of slightly unpleasant aspect of marital relations.
所以第一个是阿拉贡的凯瑟琳
So the first the first, Catherine of Aragon
是的
Yeah.
她是查理五世的姑姑，她是。
Who is the she is the aunt of Charles the fifth, the She is.
西班牙的皇帝，国王。
The emperor, the king of Spain.
她本人是费迪南德和伊莎贝拉的女儿，他们是卡斯蒂利亚和阿拉贡的伟大双王，开启了西班牙的黄金时代。
And she herself is the daughter of, Ferdinand and Isabella, who, are are the kind of the great dual monarchs, Castile and Aragon, who usher Spain into her golden age.
那是1492年。
They're fourteen ninety two.
他们攻占了格拉纳达，这是穆斯林最后的据点，完成了光复运动。
They capture Granada, which is the last kind of Muslim outpost to complete the the Reconquista.
他们驱逐了西班牙的犹太人，并资助了哥伦布发现新大陆。
They, expel the Jews from Spain, and they serve as patrons for Columbus' discovery of the new world.
是的
Yeah.
没错
Exactly.
所以他们是重量级人物。
So they're heavyweights.
是的
Yeah.
而她在七岁时就发生了这种情况。
And how that happens when she's seven.
我的意思是，她出生于1485年。
I mean, she's born in 1485.
但从这个意义上说，对于亨利七世来说，这确实是个了不起的成就，你知道，他是个有点暴发户的篡位国王，统治着一个相对边缘的王国，是的。
But in that sense, I mean, it's quite a coup for Henry the seventh who's, you know, a bit of a parvenu, a usurper king of a rather marginal kingdom Yeah.
娶到他们最小的女儿，
To to to bag their youngest daughter,
我认为
who I think
是他丈夫最喜爱的。
is his husband's favorite.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
It that's right.
完全正确。
That's absolutely right.
我认为这对他来说确实是个不小的成就。
And I think it is a bit of a coup for him.
英格兰人对这门婚事感到非常高兴。
The English are delighted with the match.
所以他为他的长子亚瑟安排了这门亲事，而亚瑟最终没有成为国王，因为他去世了。
So he lines this up for his eldest son, who's called Arthur, who who ends up not becoming king because he dies.
所以阿拉贡的凯瑟琳是个非常出色的婚配对象。
So Catherine of Aragon is quite a catch.
我认为他们双方都希望这桩婚姻的原因是他们都反法。
And the reason I think that they both want the marriage is because they they're both anti French.
这实际上是个很典型的主题，汤姆。
Such a theme of apocos, actually, Tom.
对法国的憎恶。
Loathing of the French.
法国是一个极其强大、非常富裕的国家，拥有庞大的军队。
So the French are incredibly powerful, very rich country, ginormous army.
显然，法国是新统一的卡斯蒂利亚和阿拉贡的竞争对手，因此与北边的英格兰结盟是合情合理的。
They're obviously a rival to the newly united Castile And Aragon, so it makes sense to ally with the country on the other side, the country to the north, which is England.
我的意思是，英格兰的声誉并不好。
I mean, England is you know, it doesn't have a great reputation.
它战乱不断，阴雨连绵，相当凄凉，也不是特别富裕。
It is war torn, rainy, kind of miserable, not not colossally rich.
但作为联盟，它确实有点作用。
But it it kind of works as an alliance.
因此，年少的阿拉贡的凯瑟琳被送到了一个她从未去过的国家。
And so poor Catherine of Aragon as a teenager is basically shipped off to a country that she's never been to.
她不会说那里的语言。
She doesn't speak the language.
嗯，
Well,
而她从亨利七世的妻子约克的伊丽莎白那里得到的惊人建议是，她应该学会喝酒，因为这里的水太糟糕、有毒。
and that this kind of amazing advice that she gets from Henry VII's wife, Elizabeth of York, what she should do to get get ready for life in England, is that she should learn to drink wine because the water's so horrible and poisonous.
她还应该学会说法语，这很奇怪。
And she should learn to speak French, which is odd.
这很奇怪，因为确实如此。
That is weird because yes.
因为约克的伊丽莎白说，这里没人说西班牙语，所以别带着你那满口西班牙口音过来。
Because Elizabeth York says no one here speaks Spanish, so don't come here with all your your lisping ways.
你知道的吧？
You know?
你总得说点别的语言吧，那为什么不说法语呢？
You're gonna have to speak something else, so why don't you have French?
但没人想到这一点。
But it doesn't occur to anybody.
英语简直就是一种低等的语言。
English is just such a a kind of declassay language.
是的。
Yeah.
英语。
English.
学它有什么意义呢
What's the point of learning
即使你要去英国？
it, even if you're going to England?
是的。
Yeah.
在法国，法语是浪漫、骑士精神和高雅文化的语言。
In France, French is the language of romance and chivalry and high culture.
所以，我想这说得通。
So, I suppose that makes sense.
她出现时连一句都不会说，简直连贝立兹短语手册都不会用，这确实有点奇怪。
It is kind of weird that she pitches up without a word of I mean, she basically doesn't even have the Berlitz phrase book.
对。
Yep.
但一切都很顺利，不是吗？
And it But it all goes very well, doesn't it?
她嫁给了亚瑟。
She she marries Arthur.
他们在圣保罗大教堂举行了一场非常盛大的婚礼。
It's all very glamorous wedding in Saint Paul's.
是的。
Yeah.
她非常受欢迎，实际上在人群中很受欢迎。
Goes that's all a great and she's a great hit, actually, with the crowds.
我的意思是，人们对于阿拉贡的凯瑟琳最大的误解是，我们总是看到她晚期的样子，就像我们看待亨利八世那样。
I mean, the one thing about Catherine of Aragon that people really get wrong is we always see her the sort of late period, a bit like as we do with Henry VIII.
我们看到的是他们的晚年，而不是他们的早期。
We see them at the end rather than at the beginning.
在早期，她是个少女。
At the beginning, she's a teenager.
她很漂亮。
She's pretty.
她个子相当矮。
She's quite short.
她看起来并不特别像西班牙人。
She doesn't look especially Spanish.
她有一头淡红色的头发。
She's got kind of fair reddish hair.
人们说她声音很低沉，口音很重，但她还那么年轻，汤姆。
People do say she's got a very deep voice and a sort of very heavily accented, but she's so young, Tom.
她刚过十五岁。
She's in her mid teens.
跟父母告别。
Say goodbye to her parents.
我的意思是，这简直就是童话故事的轨迹。
I mean, it really is the kind of trajectory of a children's story.
一个离开家人的女孩，前往一个陌生的国度。
The girl separated from her family who goes away to this weird country.
起初，她表现得非常出色。
And she acquits herself at first brilliantly.
你知道，她嫁给了亚瑟。
You know, she marries Arthur.
他们前往马奇地区的卢德洛城堡。
Off they go to Ludlow Castle in the March.
这有点
It's kind
像一个福里安传说。
of a Furrian legend.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，那时她过着童话般的生活。
I mean, she's living at that point, she is living a fairy tale.
她去了卡美洛。
Gone off to Camelot.
她非常受欢迎。
She's very popular.
她来到了卡美洛，壁炉里燃烧着火焰，人们举着温热的酒杯畅饮，但几个月后，当他们生活得非常幸福时，亚瑟却突然死于汗热病。
She's gone to a Camelot, the fire burns in the hearth, they're drinking cups of kind of warm goblets of warmed wine, And then disastrously, after a few months, when they've been very happy, Arthur drops dead of the sweating sickness.
然后她度过了艰难的时光。
And then she has this terrible time.
她回到伦敦，但几乎没人愿意搭理她，而且她也不能回西班牙。
She comes back to London, and basically no one really wants anything to do with her, but she can't go back to Spain.
西班牙方面也不想要她回去。
The Spanish don't want her back.
亨利也不愿送她回去。
Henry doesn't want to send her back.
他某种程度上留着她，但这并不是说
He sort of keeps her as a it's not Doesn't
她有钱吗？
have any money, does he?
是的。
Yeah.
她身无分文。
She's got no money.
没错。
Exactly.
因为他只是不断增加税收，把钱堆在国库里。
Because he's just piling up taxes in his coffins.
所以她明显陷入了深深的抑郁。
So she's she actually clearly goes into a very deep depression.
我是说，你想想看。
She's I mean, think about it.
她当时是个十几岁末、二十岁初的姑娘。
She's a girl in her late teens and then early twenties.
她不会说当地语言。
She doesn't speak the language.
她几乎没有朋友。
She has very few friends.
大多数随她一起来的仆人都回西班牙了。
Most of her servants who've come with her go back to Spain.
她与家人断绝了联系。
She has been cut off from her family.
她的丈夫，那位十几岁的丈夫，已经去世了。
Her husband, her teenage husband is dead.
她整天祈祷，并开始写信。
She spends all her time praying, and she basically starts writing letters.
她给父亲、教皇等人写信。
She writes letters to her father, to the Pope, and so on.
他们也会回信。
And they write back.
我的意思是，有一次教皇直接写信给她，说你得开始吃饭了。
I mean, at one point, the Pope basically writes to her and says, you've to start eating.
很明显，她正在自我饿食，或者患上了某种进食障碍。
So, it's clear that she's starving herself or got some kind of eating disorder.
有很多人非常担心她。
And there's people who are really worried about her.
她就这样陷入了深深的痛苦之中，持续了多年。
And she's so she's sort of sunk in this utter misery for years.
但后来
But then
她的白马王子，她的第二位白马王子
her handsome prince, her second handsome prince
是的。
Yes.
前来救她于水火之中。
Comes to the rescue.
但事情确实就是这样发生的。
But that's exactly what happened.
她在婚礼上认识了亨利，而他当时像疯子一样到处蹦跳，
So she'd met Henry at their at the wedding, and he'd been leaping around like a lunatic as
脱掉了衬衫。
a Taking his shirt off.
脱掉衬衫，胡乱跳舞之类的。
Taking his shirt off and dancing inappropriately or whatever.
大家都觉得特别好笑。
And everyone thought it was very funny.
他是那种典型的弟弟，你知道的，就像詹姆斯·霍兰德那样。
He's the sort of classic younger brother, you know, who who kind of he's the James Holland.
他其实就是哈里王子。
He's well, he's literally prince Harry.
是的。
Yes.
他就是哈里王子本人，只是没有那份同情心和善良。
He is literally prince Harry, except without the the compassion and kindness.
他的早期阶段，哈里王子，我觉得这么说更准确。
He he so his early period prince Harry is, I think, is better said.
他就是那种爱装酷的家伙。
He's, yeah, he's he's this sort of japster.
他15岁登基成为国王。
He becomes king 15 o nine.
我认为他差不多要满18岁了。
He is I think he's about to turn 18 or so.
所以他很年轻。
So he's young.
他英俊非凡，才华出众，一上台就决定必须娶一位妻子。
He's very handsome, very accomplished, and he decides straight away, I must have a wife.
巧的是，伦敦正好有一位完美的候选人——他哥哥的遗孀。
And as luck would have it, there's a perfect candidate waiting right there in London, his brother's widow.
但即便在那时，也有人质疑：娶哥哥的遗孀真的合法吗？
Now the question is, even at that stage, there's the question about, is it really legit to marry your brother's widow?
因为圣经里有一段说，不要这么做。
Because there's a bit of the bible that says, don't do it.
但圣经另一段又说，你确实应该娶你哥哥的遗孀。
But then there's another bit of the bible that says, you really ought to marry your brother's widow.
于是他们从教皇那里获得了特许。
So they get a dispensation from the pope.
教皇基本上说，这完全没问题。
The pope basically says, it's absolutely fine.
去吧。
Go for it.
他们结婚了，凯瑟琳过上了无忧无虑的生活。
They get married, and Catherine is living the life of Riley.
你知道，她已经走出了抑郁。
You know, she's she's emerged from her depression.
她深深地爱着她的丈夫。
She's she's deeply in love with her husband.
他似乎也深深地爱着她。
He seems deeply in love with her.
他们非常幸福。
They're very happy.
他们正在举办比武大会。
They're having tournaments.
他们在宫廷里搞这些荒唐的面具派对，他打扮成罗宾汉之类的人物，带着一帮朋友冲进寝宫。
They're having these ridiculous masks where he at court, where he dresses up as kind of Robinhood or something, comes in with his mates and bursts into a bed chain.
我的意思是，你完全可以想象出那个场景。
I mean, you can just picture the scene.
真是个棒极了的家伙。
Bloody good bloke.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
他说话特别搞笑，笑声爽朗。
Talk great laugh.
我们当时笑得特别开心。
We had a really Bloody laugh.
我们都打扮成了那个样子。
We all dressed up as the yeah.
好吧。
Okay.
所以我的意思是，这正是为什么达米安·刘易斯如此合适。
So I mean, you can absolutely this is why this is why, like, Damien Lewis was perfect.
每个年龄段的人都能清楚地看到这些典型的旧式英雄人物之类的形象。
Every the age, because you can act absolutely see all these kind of old Herovians or something.
比如，哈里王子就是完美的典范。
Like I mean, Prince Harry is completely the model.
他们突然闯了进来。
They're bursting in.
他们都打扮成快乐的伙伴，戴着彩色的兜帽之类的。
They're all dressed up as the Merry Men in kind of colored hoods or something.
然后凯瑟琳和那些女孩说：‘天哪。’
And then the Catherine and the girls say, oh, gosh.
我没认出你来。
I didn't recognize you.
过来亲一下，还有这些。
Come for a kiss, and all this.
我的意思是，他们觉得这是他们的时刻。
I mean, they think it's their Yeah.
觉得这是属于
Think it's the fight of
她她她每当亨利去攻打法国时，他总是这样。
She she she when Henry goes off to attack the French, which he's always doing
是的。
Yeah.
她帮助守卫北部边境，对抗那该死的苏格兰人。
She she helps to guard the northern frontier against the weasel Scot.
是的，她确实如此。
She does.
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苏格兰人攻击我们。
The Scots attack us.
弗洛登战役的灾难
The the Battle of Flogden disaster
对苏格兰人来说是一场失败。
defeat for the for the Scots.
所以她做得不错。
So so she's doing well.
但当然，有一个缺点。
But, of course, there's one drawback.
她给亨利生了一个女儿，
She she gives Henry a daughter,
玛丽，是的。
Mary Yeah.
但没有儿子。
But no son.
正如你所说，这是一次灾难性的失败。
And as you said, this is a a a catastrophic failure.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
我的意思是，这是一次失败。
I mean, it's a failure.
我的意思是，这极其严酷。
I mean, it's incredibly harsh.
这正是如何
It that's exactly how
但这就是人们看待它的方式。
But that's how it's seen.
这就是你所认为的，你说得对。
That's how it's you're you're right.
你完全对。
You're you're you're dead right.
这就是人们评判的方式。
That is how it's judged.
这非常严厉。
It's very harsh.
但这很酷。
And it's cool.
这次失败被看作是她的，而不是亨利的。
The failure is seen as hers rather than Henry's.
没错。
Exactly.
没错。
Exactly.
他们确实有个儿子，叫亨利，但他很早就去世了，只活了短短几年，我想仅仅
They do have a son, Henry, but he dies very young only after, I think, barely
实际上，多米尼克，既然说了失败是她的，当然，亨利后来也确实开始认为失败可能也是他的，不是吗？
Actually, Dominic, having said that having said that the failure is hers, of course, actually, Henry does come to think the failure might be his as well, doesn't he?
因为他开始将这视为上帝的审判。
Because he comes to see it as being the judgment of God.
是的。
He does.
很明显，到了十五二十年代的时候。
And what's clear is that you get to the fifteen twenties.
一切看起来都很好。
Everything seems to be fine.
亨利已经当了十多年国王。
Henry has been king for more than ten years.
他很稳固。
He's secure.
他非常英俊。
He's very handsome.
大家都对他印象深刻。
Everybody's very impressed with him.
他整体上给人非常出众的印象，尽管略显吓人。
He cuts just a generally very impressive, if slightly scary figure.
但到15世纪时，她比他年长一些。
But what clearly happens by the 15 is she's a bit older than he is.
因此，这在一定程度上是那种经典的夫妻关系心理现象——丈夫娶了年长的妻子，而他呢，可以说有一种类似中年危机的感觉。
So there's partly that classic kind of psychological thing of the the husband with the with the older wife, and he's you know, there's an element of a sort of, don't know, would you call it, a midlife crisis.
他开始倾心于更年轻的女性。
He kind of fancies a younger model.
但更重要的是，孩子的问题她已经习以为常，而这件事却一直压在他心头。
But also, the son thing is is is clearly she has got used to it, whereas it is weighing on his mind.
明白了。
Okay.
所以这个更年轻的女性，是的。
So so the younger model Yeah.
安·博林。
Anne Bellin.
我认为，可能是亨利八世最著名的妻子，我会这么说。
Prob I mean, probably the most famous of Henry's wives, I would say.
是的。
Yeah.
我也这么认为。
I think so.
所以安·博林。
So Anne Bellin.
但不知为何，在我看来，她是最浪漫的一位。
And seen as the most romantic, weirdly, in my mind.
她根本不需要人教她学法语，因为她大部分人生都在法国度过。
And and she didn't need to be told to learn French because she'd spent most of her life in France.
所以她是亨利八世最信任的外交官之一的女儿。
So she's the the the daughter of of one of Henry's most trusted diplomats.
还有托马斯·博林。
And So Thomas Beam.
她曾是法国王后的侍女，后来回到英格兰，带着在法国生活多年所养成的时尚气质——她并不是那种惊为天人的绝色美人，对吧？
And she she is the kind of lady in waiting to the queen of France, and she comes back to England, and she's fashionable in the way that someone who spent lots of time in France is she's not I mean, she's not a a sensational beauty, is she?
不对。
No.
她不是。
She's not.
我的意思是，人们常说的一点是
Mean, that's one of the things that people
她有一个第六根手指。
She has she has a a sixth a sixth finger.
是吗
Is that
嗯，我
Well, I'm
不确定。
not sure.
我觉得第六根手指这一点有很多细节可以讲。
I think I think the sixth finger is is there's there's a lot of details about
第三乳头绝对不是真的。
And the third nipple is definitely not true.
那是《金枪人》里的斯卡拉曼加。
That's Scaramanga from the man with the golden gum.
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
那是克里斯托弗·李。
It's Christopher Lee.
我在这里并不困惑。
I'm not confused here.
克里斯托弗·李非常罕见。
Very rarely Christopher Lee.
是的，她。
She yes.
人们说她皮肤发黄，脸型非常瘦削，而且肤色较深。
People say she has sallow skin, and she kind of a very thin face, and she's dark.
而且人们普遍对她的外貌不太认同。
And and, people sort of disapprove of her looks.
但宫廷里的人说她非常机智、聪明、害羞，如果你喜欢那种类型的话，她还颇具魅力。
But people at court say she is very witty and she's clever and she's shy and she's kind of charming, if you like that kind of thing.
她显然在亨利眼中是凯瑟琳的完全对立面——凯瑟琳尽职尽责、严肃认真，越来越虔诚于上帝，几乎把大量时间都花在祈祷上。
And she clearly represents to Henry just the complete antithesis of Catherine, is so dutiful and serious and and is turning more and more to to god and is basically spending a lot of time praying.
尽管安妮也非常虔诚，但她更倾向于一种激进的、全新的基督教理解方式，这种理解后来被称为新教。
Although Anne is also very religious, but but inclining towards the this kind of radical new understanding of Christianity that will come to be called Protestantism.
没错。
That's right.
她在法国读过书。
She's read books in France.
她读过法语版的《圣经》之类的书。
She's read, like, French translations of the bible and things.
所以她满脑子都是这些东西。
So she's full of all this stuff.
我认为，对亨利来说，这一切都令人着迷。
And I think to Henry, all of this is kind of intoxicating.
或许有梅根那样的气质。
Meghan quality, perhaps.
我觉得
I think
那不是关于对的。
that's not about yeah.
他们来自另一个国家，带来了一种激进、令人兴奋且富有戏剧性的全新理解方式。
They're coming from another country, bringing a kind of radical, exciting, dramatic new way of understanding things.
而且顺便说一句，这种新方式也非常适合亨利，因为这种新方式让他更加强大。
And And it also really suits Henry, by the way, this new way, because the new way makes him more powerful.
因为很明显，教皇权力巨大，而这种新方式本质上是说：哦，教皇其实对你没有权力。
Because, obviously, the pope is colossally powerful, and the new way basically involves saying, oh, the pope doesn't really have power over you.
你知道的吗？
You know?
她基本上在给亨利提供威廉·廷代尔和西蒙·菲什等这些改革神学家的宣传册，而这些册子恰好告诉他：教皇在你的王国里根本没有管辖权。
She's basically giving her Amberlynn's giving Henry all these pamphlets by William Tyndale and Simon Fish and these kind of Reformation theologians, which conveniently for him say, oh, the pope has no jurisdiction in your kingdom at all.
你可以为所欲为。
You can do what you like.
所以从亨利的角度来看，
So from Henry's point of view,
这简直是双赢。
it's kind of win win.
快点加入。
Pile in.
是的。
Yes.
所以他决定要和凯瑟琳离婚，而且他决定这么做是因为圣经中禁止兄弟娶兄弟的妻子。
So so he does he he decides he wants to divorce Catherine and decides he wants to do it because of the biblical injunction against brothers marrying their
对。
Yeah.
兄弟的妻子。
Brothers' wives.
但，汤姆，这可不是一个我们可以轻易忽视的决定。
Well, but, Tom, that's just not a that's not a decision that we should just dismiss lightly.
你是在说我在贬低圣经诫命的重要性吗？
That a colossal Are you saying that I'm downplaying the significance of biblical injunction?
难得一次。
For once.
是的
Yeah.
天哪，千万别。
Heaven forbid.
不。
No.
我的意思是，当然，这整个事情。
It's entire I I of course.
我的意思是，这极其重要。
I mean, it's incredibly important.
我
I
但更重要的是，安妮在历史上所扮演的非凡角色。
but it's also the fact that Anne this is Anne's extraordinary role in history, actually.
自古以来，国王们就一直有情妇。
Kings have had mistresses since time immemorial.
亨利曾有过情妇，包括安妮的姐姐玛丽。
Henry had had mistresses, including Anne's sister, Mary.
安妮真正了不起的地方在于，她说：我不会做你的情妇。
Anne is the really remarkable thing is that Anne says, I will not be your mistress.
我必须成为你的妻子。
I must be your wife.
而且，显然，你并没有在你的儿童读物中详细提到这个细节。
Mean and, obviously, this is not a detail that you went into in your children's book.
这是否意味着亨利在结婚前一直不与安妮同房？
Does does that mean that Henry does not sleep with Anne until they marry?
历史学家们对此有过讨论。
Historians have discussed it.
我的意思是，没人知道真相。
I mean, no one knows.
我的意思是，关于这一点的真相，正是《六位妻子》如此引人入胜的原因——我认为，对于撰写通俗历史书籍的人来说，我们实际上所知甚少，因此可以加入大量自己的推测
I mean, the the truth of that, what makes The Six Wives so so fascinating, I think, for people writing popular history books is there's actually so little that we do know that you can fill in a lot with your
自己的信息。
own information.
我的意思是，这到底是什么？
I mean, it's it's what?
大概六年吧，不是吗？
It's kind of six years, isn't it?
六七年？
Six, seven years?
我的意思是，要让一个人做到这一点
I mean, to get someone to get this
大事。
great matter.
比如说，有人说过，她当时没有和他同房，但她可能通过其他方式满足了他。
Be on a long or somebody like that says at some point she didn't sleep with him, but she may have satisfied him by other means.
那是什么？
What's that?
天啊，一个
Hell, a
性行为。
sex act.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
有点像比尔·克林顿那种‘是的’式的说法。
Sort of where there's some sort of Bill Clinton style Yes.
你知道的，好吧。
You know Okay.
我们马上就要说到这个了
We're gonna get to This
这会是一个成人评级的节目，所以我们应该收敛一点。
is gonna be an adult rated episode, so we've we should rein back on that.
是的。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
所以，当然，这随后被卷入了那个巨大的搅动机器中，最终变成了
So, of course, this then gets ground dragged into the great mangle that turns out to
宗教改革。
be the Reformation.
是的。
Yeah.
亨利早期其实一直反对，因为当然，他曾写过一篇为七圣礼辩护、反对路德的文章。
Which Henry has been against, actually, early, because, of course, he'd written in defense of the seven sacks against Luther.
是的。
Yeah.
他还曾称路德为‘口吐泡沫的疯傻之徒’。
And he had this Luther called him a mad fool with a frothy mouth.
所以我觉得我们应该再做一期关于英格兰宗教改革的节目。
So I think I think we should do another episode on the Reformation in England.
当然应该。
Of course, should.
当然。
Of course.
多期节目。
Multiple episodes.
托马斯·克伦威尔
Thomas Cromwell
等等。
and so on.
所以让我们把焦点放在王后们身上。
So so so let's keep the focus on on on the wives.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
所以，基本问题是教皇刚刚被皇帝俘虏了。
So, basically, the problem is that the pope has just been taken prisoner by the emperor.
是的。
Yeah.
查理五世的军队，是的，攻入了罗马。
Charles the fifth's troops, yeah, Of stormed So
教皇现在根本没有能力允许亨利八世离婚，娶皇帝的姑姑？
the pope is in no position to allow Henry to divorce the emperor's aunt?
不行。
No.
皇帝会对此暴跳如雷的。
The emperor would be livid about yeah.
这陷入了僵局。
There's kind of deadlock.
教皇在拖延时间，而亨利则越来越沮丧，也许在各个方面都是如此。
And the the pope plays for time, and Henry's getting increasingly frustrated, perhaps in every way.
谁知道呢？
Who knows?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yes.
于是在托马斯·克伦威尔的帮助下，就像《狼厅》里那样
And so with the help of of Thomas Cromwell, as in Wolf Hall
是的。
Yeah.
亨利找到了一种方式来斩断戈尔迪之结，那就是否认教皇的最高权威，宣布自己实际上成为英格兰教会的领袖。
Henry finds a way to cut the Gordian knot, which is basically to repudiate papal supremacy, to declare himself basically in charge of of of the church in England.
通过这种方式，他得以迎娶安妮。
And in this way, he's able to marry Anne.
正是如此。
Exactly.
可怜的凯瑟琳被逐离宫廷，先后送往一系列乡间宅邸。
And poor old Catherine gets shoved off to a succession of country houses.
同样地，就像安妮一样，值得注意的是，她也没有选择轻松的出路。
Basically, again, like Anne, as with Anne, the remarkable thing is she doesn't take the easy option either.
所谓轻松的选择，就是说：好吧，我们本来就不该结婚。
So, the easy option would be to say, fair enough, we shouldn't have got married in the first place.
这违背了上帝的律法。
It was against the laws of God.
我要去修道院，在那里我大概会过得不错，受到妥善照顾，诸如此类。
I'm off to a nunnery where I'll probably live in very I'll be well looked after and properly treated and stuff.
但她基本上说：不。
But she basically says, no.
我都走了这么远，忍了这么多
I haven't come all this way and put up with all
这个托马斯·克伦威尔，他的种种算计最终把她逼到了绝境。
this Thomas Cromwell, whose whose maneuverings basically kind of back her out.
我的意思是，他真的很钦佩她，对吧？
I mean, she he's terribly impressed by her, isn't he?
是的。
Yeah.
他说她本该是个男人。
He says she should've been a man.
如果她是男人，她会成为基督教世界最伟大的人物之一。
If she'd been a man, she'd be one of the greatest figures in Christendom.
因为，基本上，她——我的意思是，她在那场惊人的审判中当众反抗了他。
Because, basically, she defy I mean, she defies him in public at this incredible trial.
我的意思是，难怪第五频道的制片人喜欢这个情节。
I mean, no wonder Channel five commissioners like this.
审判场景中，这位年迈的枢机主教，一个像是从罗马派来的意大利式黑手党人物，卡姆佩吉奥枢机主教。
The trial scene where this aged cardinal, this sort of Italian sort of mafioso has come up from been sent from Rome, cardinal Campeggio.
他坐在沃尔西枢机主教旁边，而她站起来当着所有人的面让亨利难堪。
And he's sitting there with cardinal Wolsey, and she basically stands up and humiliates Henry in front of the whole all this audience.
当必须宣誓时，是的。
And then when when it becomes obligatory to swear the oath Yeah.
你知道，这就是导致托马斯·莫尔命运转折的关键。
You know, I mean, this is this is what does for Thomas More.
他为此走上了断头台。
He, you know, goes to the block over it.
凯瑟琳和她的女儿玛丽都拒绝宣誓。
Both Catherine and Mary, her daughter, refused to to swear it.
所以，这里隐隐有种危险的气息。
So, I mean, there's kind of slight sense of jeopardy there.
当然，亨利不会去处决皇帝的
I mean, obviously, Henry's you know, he's not gonna execute the emperor's
不。
No.
他不能处决她。
He can't execute her.
他可以处决其他人，但这恰恰说明了很多问题。
He can execute other people, but it's it's so telling.
你说得对，他确实没有这么做，这毫无疑问。
You're dead right that he doesn't and there's absolutely no question, really.
他不可能处决凯瑟琳。
There's no danger of him executing Catherine.
所以凯瑟琳她……她算是被退居二线了，是吧？
So so so Catherine so Catherine gets she she she kind of gets retired, doesn't she?
玛丽呢，她基本上是在消沉中度日，最后去世，葬在彼得伯勒大教堂。
Mary so she and and she basically kind of wastes away and and and dies, gets buried in Peterborough Cathedral.
是的。
Yeah.
直到今天，人们仍在她的墓前献上鲜花和石榴，石榴象征着傲慢。
And to this day, flowers laid by her graves and pomegranates, the symbol of arrogance.
她非常非常受英国人民的喜爱。
She's very, very popular with the British with the English people.
不是英国人。
Not the British.
英格兰人。
English people.
她被视为女王。
And she is seen as as the queen.
她是。
She is
因此，柏林并不受欢迎。
And Berlin, for that reason, is not popular.
我认为我们应该在此时休息一下。
I think we should take a break at this point.
好的。
Sure.
我认为，当我们回来时，应该看一下安妮·博林的兴衰，然后简单了解一下
And I think that that when we come back, we should look at the the rise and fall of Anne Boleyn and then have a a canter through
剩下的四位王后。
the remaining four queens.
是的。
Yeah.
非常好。
Jolly good.
休息后见。
See you after the break.
你好。
Hello.
欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。
Welcome back to The Rest is History.
我们正在讨论亨利八世的六位妻子。
We're talking the six wives of Henry VIII.
我们只讲到了前两位，阿拉贡的凯瑟琳，她在广告前去世了，还有安妮·博林，她现在是王后多米尼克。
We have we've only got onto the the the two the two first ones, Catherine of Aragon, who died just before the commercial break, and Anne Boleyn, who is now queen Dominic.
是的。
Yeah.
但她并不受欢迎。
But not popular.
不。
No.
人们常常私下嘀咕。
People used to sort of mutter.
他们怎么称呼她来着？
They called her what do they call her?
什么放荡的荡妇之类的。
Kinda naughty strumpet and all this kind of stuff.
一个放荡的凸眼女巫。
A naughty goggle eyed witch.
那是我最喜欢的儿子。
That's my favorite son.
我最喜欢的人心之声的引述。
My favorite my favorite voice of the people quote
关于让他上位。
about getting him.
是的，之后。
After Yes.
没错。
Exactly.
她不受欢迎。
She's not popular.
她不被看作是某种...
She's not seen as some
但如果她给亨利生了个儿子，她的不受欢迎本不会有什么影响。
But but her unpopularity wouldn't have mattered if she'd given Henry a son.
是的。
Yeah.
再一次
Once again
她给他生了一个女儿，伊丽莎白。
She gives him a daughter, Elizabeth.
对。
Yes.
玛丽已经被边缘化了。
Mary has been kind of cast aside.
所以伊丽莎白现在是继承人，但显然，亨利想要一个儿子。
So Elizabeth is now the heir, but, obviously, Henry wants a son.
他必须有个儿子。
He's got to have a son.
他现在对此着了魔。
He's obsessed with it now.
安妮再次怀孕了。
Anne gets pregnant again.
亨利正在参加比武大会。
Henry's in a tournament.
是的。
Yes.
保罗短暂地看起来像死了。
Paul briefly looks like he's dead.
对。
Yeah.
所以他确实恢复了，但他遭受了严重的运动损伤。
So it's but he comes around, but he sustained a serious sporting injury.
这真是
This is
我知道我知道这个
And I know I know the This
是这个
is the
我知道我自己，你知道的，运动损伤有多打击人。
I I know myself how, you know, how demoralizing sporting injuries can be.
所以对他有点同情。
So a bit of bit of sympathy for him there.
但安妮对此非常伤心，以至于她流产了。
But Anne Anne is so upset by this that, basically, she miscarries.
没错。
Exactly.
tournament事故后 exactly 就发生了这种情况。
That's exactly what happens just after the tournament accident.
好的。
Okay.
那之后发生了什么？
And so what happens then?
那么，接下来是一系列有些混乱且模糊的事件，实际上，安妮和亨利一直以来的关系都非常动荡，与他和凯瑟琳·奥瓦拉根的关系截然不同。
Well, then it's a slightly confusing and murky series of events where basically what really happens is Anne and Henry have always had its very tempestuous relationship, complete unlike his relationship with Catherine O'Varagan.
因此，他们经常争吵，他有时会对她说，你知道，我随时可以像娶你一样轻易地抛弃你，因为她性格尖锐、言辞刻薄，擅长讽刺，而且自己也容易发怒。
So there's been a lot of quarrelling, and he's sometimes said to her, you know, I can kind of drop you as quickly as I picked you up, because she's spiky, and she's acerbic, and she's very quick with the kind of put downs, and she's hot tempered herself.
哇，哇，哇，你脑子里就只会想着亨利·都铎。
Woah, woah, woah, that's all you ever think of, Henry Tudor.
非常好。
Very good.
所以，没错，他们之间争吵不断。
So, yes, she's there's a lot of bickering.
就在这一切发生的过程中，她与他的首席大臣托马斯·克伦威尔闹翻了。
And in the midst of all this, she falls out with his chief minister, Thomas Cromwell.
这 partly 是因为克伦威尔非常希望达成一项联盟。
And it's partly because Cromwell really wants an alliance.
他希望人们把他当作一位首相来看待。
He wants he's based think of him as a kinda prime minister.
他非常希望与查理五世及其帝国结成联盟，共同对抗法国。
He really wants an alliance with Charles V, with the empire, against the French.
但安妮基本上成了这一目标的障碍，因为皇帝只要安妮还被承认为王后，就永远不会与英格兰达成协议。
But basically, Anne is an obstacle to that because the emperor will never do a deal as long as Anne, he recognize has Anne as the queen.
安妮也威胁到了克伦威尔的开支计划和他的野心。
Anne is also a threat to Cromwell's sort of spending plans and his ambitions.
他想成为掌权者，而安妮则认为自己才应该说了算。
He wants to be the man, and she basically thinks she should be in charge.
因为亨利，我的意思是，亨利当时正在兴建白厅宫，对吧？
Because Henry I mean, Henry is basically inventing Whitehall Palace at this point, isn't he?
他正在
He's he's
我的意思是，他大肆进行开发和奢华建设，花的钱远远超出了他的承受能力。
I mean, he's a massive development, luxury development, spending money that he doesn't really have.
说得对极了。
That's exactly right.
克伦威尔即将通过解散修道院来向他施压。
Cromwell is about to serve it up to him by dissolving the monasteries.
通过解散修道院。
By dissolving the monasteries.
所以这是一场内部权力斗争。
So there's a sort of internal power struggle.
我认为克伦威尔实际上策划了整个事件。
And I think Cromwell effectively orchestrates the whole thing.
他基本意识到，如果他能利用亨利的恐惧——亨利总是与安妮发生冲突——并说：你知道吗？
He basically realizes that if he can say to if he can play on Henry's fear the fact that he's always falling out with Anne and basically say, do you know what?
安妮在密谋对付你。
Anne is plotting against you.
她一直背叛你，和许多男人有染，包括她自己的兄弟、一位宫廷乐师，还有你的一些朋友，等等。
She's been betraying you with all these blokes, including her own brother, a court musician, some of your own friends, all of this.
令人惊讶的是，亨利竟然完全相信了。
And the amazing thing is that Henry just swallows it.
我的意思是，这或许反映了他深深的不安全感——当克伦威尔告诉他这些事时，他根本没有想过要和安妮开个会，好好谈谈他们婚姻中的问题，而是直接说：好吧。
I mean, that's a sign maybe of his deep insecurity that when Cromwell tells him this stuff, there's no question of he'll have a little meeting with Anne to talk through their marital troubles, or he just says, fine.
杀了她。
Kill her.
我认为，正是从这一点开始，这个故事超越了寻常，因为在此之前发生的很多事情其实并不算特别罕见。
And I think that's the point at which the story crosses over from, frankly, the usual because a lot of this stuff before that is it's not that unprecedented.
但我觉得，当亨利说‘好吧’的时候，就是转折点。
But I think the point at which Henry says, fine.
她必须消失。
She's got to go.
我们杀了她。
We'll kill her.
正是在这一刻，这个故事变得真正非同寻常。
That that is the point where this becomes a really extraordinary story.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
所以安妮去了塔楼，然后上了断头台。
So Anne Anne goes to the tower, and then she goes to the block.
是的。
Yeah.
而亨利 meanwhile，又有了新的迷恋，是的。
And Henry, meanwhile, has, he's got a new crush Yes.
她是个威尔特郡的女孩。
Who is a Wiltshire girl.
对。
Yes.
那么在这种情况下，她可能是你最喜爱的王后。
So probably your favorite wife in that case.
是的。
Yes.
所以简·西摩，就像小说《狼厅》里那样长大，她是个非常典型的猎魔人女孩。
So, Jane Seymour, who who grows up in Wolf Hall as in as in the novel, and she's very she's very much a witcher girl.
所以她非常喜欢小马。
So she she loves ponies.
是的。
Yeah.
她有一条狗。
She's got a dog.
狗。
Dogs.
狗。
Dogs.
基本上，你知道我们对什么一无所知吗？
Basically, do you know what we know nothing at all about?
没人了解简·西摩。
No one knows anything about Jane Seymour.
关于狗的那些事，我觉得真的特别搞笑，尤其是在关于他六位王后的第八代史学记载中。
So the stuff about dogs, I I find this hilarious, actually, the six wives of him in eighth historiography.
会有一些史料基本上说，她曾经和一只狗在同一间房间里待过。
There'll be a source that basically says once she was in the same room as a dog.
如果你把这些说法一路追溯下去，到了二十世纪九十年代出版的书籍里，就变成了‘英国历史上最著名的爱狗人士发明了狗’。
And then if you sort of and if you trace that through the books, by the time you get to sort of books published in the nineteen nineties, they're saying the most famous dog lover in English history invented dogs.
这只是因为人们迫切想要丰富这些充满戏剧性的都铎王朝历史。
Just because people are desperate to flesh out these kind of bodice ripping kind of histories of the Tudors.
她是个来自威尔特郡的女孩，喜欢小马，也喜欢狗。
She's a Wiltshire girl who loves ponies and loves dogs.
没人能改变我的看法。
I'm not no one's gonna change my view on that.
她温柔善良，是的。
And she's sweet, kind Yeah.
她嫁给了亨利，为他生了一个儿子，爱德华六世，他
Marries Henry, gives him a son, Edward the sixth, who
爱德华六世夭折了。
feeds Edward the sixth Dies.
但去世了。
But dies.
真够倒霉的。
Very unlucky.
我的意思是，亨利真的很倒霉。
I mean, Henry's a very unlucky.
他娶了简·西摩，实际上，这段婚姻本来可能会非常顺利。
He's he's gone for Jane Seymour, and, actually, that would probably work out completely fine.
是的。
Yeah.
她显然很清楚自己该做什么，本质上不过是个漂亮的摆设。
She's she she clearly knows exactly what's expected of her, which is basically it's been little more than a sort of pretty accessory.
没有理由认为他们会闹翻。
There's no reason to believe they would have fallen out.
一切都会很顺利。
It would have all been fine.
只是她生下爱德华六世后不久就去世了，这真是太倒霉了。
It's just incredibly bad luck that she dies just after giving birth to Edward the sixth.
好的。
Okay.
现在我们来到我最喜欢的女王。
And now we come to my favorite queen.
每个人最喜欢的女王，
Everyone's favorite queen,
莎恩。
Shaun.
你在我书里描述过的那位每个人最喜欢的女王，
Everyone's favorite queen, who you, in your book, described.
她很平淡。
She was bland.
她很无聊。
She was boring.
她是德国人。
She was German.
嗯，这些说法确实都对，亲爱的。
Well, well, those things are all those things are all true, honey.
我的意思是，向她道歉。
I mean, apologies to her.
她并不乏味。
She's not bland.
她很无聊。
She's boring.
她被亨利视为乏味。
She's seen as bland by Henry.
她是德国人。
She is German.
所以我们现在在谈克利夫斯的安妮
So we're talking Anne of Cleves
克利夫斯的安妮。
Anne of Cleves.
托马斯·克伦威尔正在试图找一个合适的人选，问题是，到这个时候，亨利已经得罪了所有人。
Who is Thomas Cromwell trying to find who wants So the problem is, Henry, by this point, is Everybody.
是的。
Yeah.
他与天主教欧洲的关系已经彻底破裂。
He's burnt his bridges with with Catholic Europe.
因此，本质上，虔诚的新教徒托马斯·克伦威尔想为他找一位新教徒新娘。
And so, essentially, Thomas Cromwell, a a devout Protestant, wants to find him a Protestant bride.
是的。
Yeah.
克利夫斯的安妮呢？我的意思是，实际上她父亲并不是新教徒。
Anne of Cleves comes I mean, she actually her father's not Protestant.
不。
No.
但他们与新教联盟的德意志诸邦关系非常密切，玩了一手巧妙的中间策略。
But they're very close to they they played a kind of a cunning middle game.
是的。
Yeah.
他们与德意志新教联盟的诸邦关系非常密切。
They're very close to the sort of Protestant League of of of German states.
因此，众所周知，是的。
And so famously Yeah.
派荷尔拜因，那位伟大的画家，去为她画像。
Send Holbein, the great painter, over to to to paint her.
他回来了。
Comes back.
亨利一看，说，是的。
Henry looks there, goes, yeah.
这很好。
That's very nice.
是的。
Yes.
她过来了。
She comes over.
而且大家都觉得她很漂亮。
And and and everyone thinks she's very pretty.
你知道吗？
You know?
关键是这个。
This is the thing.
关于佛兰德斯市长那件事，人们称她为‘佛兰德斯空气’，这完全不真实。
The Flanders mayor stuff, people call her the Flanders air, is totally untrue.
她过来后，大家都说她完全没问题。
She comes over, and everybody says she's absolutely fine.
她并不是那种惊艳型的美女。
She's she's not a stunner.
她不是那种即将成为维多利亚的秘密模特类型，但她绝对温和、无害且很好。
She's not a kind of Victoria's Secret model in waiting, but she is absolutely, utterly inoffensive and fine.
问题是亨利，我们之前听到一些人说亨利是性瘾者。
The problem is Henry the one thing that so we had some questions that people said about Henry being a sex addict.
他绝对不是性瘾者。
He absolutely wasn't a sex addict.
亨利实际上是个近乎天真的浪漫主义者。
What Henry was was a child almost childish romantic.
他从小就被亚瑟王式的浪漫故事熏陶长大。
He he was sort of utterly raised on all this Arthurian romance stuff.
他想要一位桂妮薇儿。
He wants an a Guinevere.
他想要一个能让他彻底倾倒、心驰神往的人。
He wants somebody that he will he can be feel swept up with.
所以当她来到英国时，他做了一次灾难性却又极其可笑的自我介绍，他和朋友们故技重施，采用了当年王子哈里的老办法。
So he he he does this disastrous yet absolutely laugh able introduction to her when she's come to England, and he and his mates do they go back to the old Prince Harry tactic.
嗯，就是那种‘汪汪’式的行为。
Well, it's it is that kind of woof woof thing.
他们真的打扮成罗宾汉和快乐的伙伴们，出现在——我想是罗切斯特吧？
They they dress up as they literally dress up as Robin Hood and the Merry Men, and they pitch up in, I think, Rochester, isn't it?
地点是罗切斯特的大主教宫，他们穿着五颜六色的斗篷。
It's in Rochester at the Bishop's Palace in multicolored hoods.
他们突然冲进她的房间，而她正坐在那里，手里拿着
They burst into her room, and she's sitting there with a
她完全不知道发生了什么。
And she has no idea what's going on.
他们在看斗熊表演。
Well, they're watching bear baiting.
她正望着窗外。
And and she's looking out the window.
所以这些小丑戴着帽子冲进来，她只是看着他们，用德语嘀咕了一句，连看都不看他们一眼，感到非常尴尬。
So these clowns burst in in these hoods, and she just kinda looks at them and mutters in German and won't even look them in the eye, and is embarrassed by it.
而亨利从此再也没有原谅过她。
And Henry never ever forgives her for that.
我的意思是，从那一刻起，他基本上就说她不行了。
I mean, from that moment, he basically says, she's no good.
我不喜欢她。
I don't like her.
我已娶了
I've taken
克伦威尔说，我不知道，但你必须继续下去。
her Cromwell says, I can't know, you've gotta go ahead with it.
所以他还是继续了。
So he goes ahead with it.
他们推迟了一天，或者类似的一天。
They postpone it by a day a day of or something.
和她同床共枕。
Goes to bed with her.
第二天早上，他说：‘问这个问题吧。’
The next morning, says, act the question.
他去看了医生。
He goes to see the doctors.
这事儿可笑极了。
This is the hilarious thing.
他去找医生，问：‘我们该怎么办？’
He goes to see his doctors, he says, what should we do?
我我我实在，你知道的，什么都做不了。
I I I can't I can't, you know, can't do anything.
他们说：‘对此我们真的没什么办法。’
And they say, not much we can really do about this.
除非，你不可能有儿子
You you're not gonna get a son unless
但但但还不够好。
Well but but so so not good enough.
她必须离开，导致克伦威尔被送上断头台。
She has to go, brings down Cromwell who goes to the block.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，克伦威尔
I mean, Cromwell
所以所有这些都铎宫廷中的重要人物，每当权力轮转、另一位王后倒台时，他们也随之垮台。
pays So all these kind of great figures of the of the the Tudor court who who basically, every time the wheel turns and another wife goes, they go as
没错。
well.
对。
Yes.
所以克伦威尔也倒了。
So so Cromwell goes.
但我喜欢安妮·克利夫斯的一点是，她把自己的牌打得很好。
And but the thing I like about Anna Cleves is that she she she plays her hand well.
非常聪明。
Very well.
而且她带来了一笔交易，不是吗？
So And she comes with a deal, doesn't he?
所以本质上，她留在了英格兰。
So essentially, she she stays in England.
她不必灰头土脸、心碎地被送回父亲身边。
She doesn't have to go back kind of humiliated and broken to her to her father.
她留在了英格兰。
She stays in England.
她得到了两座宫殿和大量地产，条件相当优厚。
She gets a a brilliant she kinda gets two palaces and loads of properties.
所以，多米尼克，你作为苏塞克斯考古学会的成员，有没有遇到过这种情况？
So, Dominic, I the Sussex Archaeological Society, have you come across this?
我知道你非常热情。
I'm aware you're very enthusiastic.
这是一个很棒的组织。
Well, it's a wonderful organization.
它是英国最古老的郡级考古学会，今年正好一百七十五周年。
It's it's Britain's oldest county archaeological society, a hundred and seventy five years this year.
而且，基本上，它大部分财产在某个时期都曾属于安妮·克利夫斯。
And, basically, most of its properties at some point were owned by Anne of Cleves.
真的吗？
Were they?
所以遍布萨塞克斯郡。
So all over Sussex.
而且实际上，整个东南英格兰地区，你都会遇到一些美丽的都铎风格建筑，导游手册上会说，它只是远离悬崖而已。
And, actually, all over, I mean, all over South Southeast England, you come across, you know, some beautiful Tudor property, and the guidebook will say, it was only far out of cliffs.
她相当于开放了数千万英镑的资产。
Well, she was opened the equivalent of tens and tens of millions of pounds.
但奇怪的是，她在这段时间里一直留在英格兰，却后来没钱了。
But the weird thing is she then stays in England all this time, but then she runs out of money.
所以，作为一个乖女孩，她显然突然变得疯狂了。
So, basically, having been a good girl, she clearly just sort of went mad
她是不是放纵了？
Went wild, didn't she?
然后把所有的钱都花在了某些东西上。
And just spent all this money on something.
我不知道是什么。
I don't know what.
而且，但后来，她不断抱怨英格兰的一切都太贵了。
And and because but then by then, sort of later on, she's constantly complaining that everything in England is too expensive.
是的。
Yeah.
就是那种典型的‘是的’情况。
Just that classic thing of a Yeah.
我真的很喜欢她。
I I love her.
我喜欢那些搬到英国的欧洲人，却整天抱怨天气。
I love European person who's moved to England, but basically just whinges the whole time at the weather.
什么都太贵了。
The everything's too expensive.
她真的值得被尊重。
She's really pay her enough respect.
即使她后来很晚才去世，她也是所有贤者中最长寿的。她去世时正值热浪，政府于是告诉人们：不要去参加安妮女王的葬礼。
Even her even when she dies much later on, she's the longest lived of all the wise, When she dies, there's a heat wave, and so the government says to people, don't go to Anna Queen's funeral.
所以没人给她办国葬，是吧？
So nobody have a state funeral, doesn't she?
所以没人去，因为实在太热了。
So nobody but nobody goes because it's too hot.
所以我会去的。
So I I would have gone.
我会去的。
I would have gone.
她是我心中的女王。
She's the queen of my heart.
但与此同时，说到好女孩和坏女孩，是的。
But meanwhile, talking of of good girls and bad girls Yeah.
亨利把目光锁定在一位名叫凯瑟琳·霍华德的年轻少女身上。
Henry's fixed his eye on a a a young teenager called Catherine Howard.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这个这个是
So this is this is this is
他表现得很糟糕。
a kind of He behaved quite badly.
这是一个有点悲剧的故事，不是吗？
This is this is a this is a slightly tragic story, isn't it?
他娶了凯瑟琳·霍华德，抱歉。
He marries Catherine of Howard Cath sorry.
他娶了凯瑟琳·霍华德。
He marries Catherine Howard.
此时年龄差距很大，也正是在这个时候，他彻底变成了一个胖子。
There's a big age gap at this stage, and this is the point at which he has definitively become a whale.
所以他非常非常胖。
So he's very, very fat.
他只是对她产生了兴趣。
And he just takes a fancy to her.
而此时，他正处于一种荒唐的中年危机中。
And at this point, he's in ridiculous kind of midlife crisis
空间。
space.
她基本上就像是买了一辆鲜红色的跑车作为婚姻的替代品。
She she so she is basically the marital equivalent of buying a bright red sports car.
当然。
Absolutely.
是。
Is.
她被霍华德家族推到他面前。
And she's sort of pushed in front of him by the Howard family.
他们注意到他盯着她看，于是把她推到前面，并且全力指导她。
They notice him looking at her, and they push her in front, and they basically coach her.
哦，好吧，你可以这样讨好国王。
Oh, well, you can woo the king this way.
你知道的，总是笑他的笑话，总是赞美他的溃疡。
You know, always laugh at his jokes, always admire his ulcer.
是的。
Yes.
随便吧。
Whatever.
热。
Hot.
她嫁给了他，一切暂时都还不错。
And she marries him, and everything is fine for a while.
他非常宠爱她。
And he dotes upon it.
他早起去打猎，试图减掉一些体重，想借此给她留下好印象。
He gets up early and goes hunting to try and lose a bit of weight and and and sort of try to impress her.
但后来，他通过坎特伯雷大主教克兰默的一封信得知，他妻子出了严重的问题。
But, basically, he then discovers because the archbishop of Canterbury, Cranmer, gives him a a note that says, I've got very bad news about your wife.
她早在嫁给你之前，就和音乐老师之类的人有染，这一点亨利还能勉强原谅，但后来发现，她在婚后还继续与其他男人保持关系。
She's, a, she's been carrying on with men like a music teacher and stuff, before she married you, which Henry can kind of forgive, but then it turns out that she's been carrying on with other men while they were married.
托马斯·卡尔佩珀。
Thomas Culpepper.
一个名叫托马斯·卡尔佩珀的男人，确实是个坏透了的人。
A man called Thomas Culpepper, who's a very bad man indeed.
他本质上是个强奸犯。
He's basically a rapist.
托马斯·卡尔佩珀是亨利身边那种类似哈里王子类型的人物，他是盖伊·佩利。
And Thomas Culpepper is one of Henry's sort of Prince Harry style he's he's Guy Pelly.
他是个上流社会的常客，是的。
He's a bougie's habitue who Yeah.
他喜欢滑雪。
He loves skiing.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
他一直与凯瑟琳·霍华德有染。
He's been carrying on with Catherine Howard.
而且，你知道，亨利再次因为能这么做——因为她不是王室成员，也不是来自外国的世袭家族——他只是彻底羞辱了她，在枢密院面前上演了可怕的场面，他像孩子一样痛哭。
And, again, you know, Henry, again, because he can, because she's not royal, she's not from a foreign, you know, dynastic house or something, He just basically he's humiliated, and there's these dreadful scenes in front of his council where he's sobbing like a child.
是的。
Yeah.
你骗了我。
You lied to me.
你告诉我她过得不开心。
You told me she was oh, I'm so unhappy.
她必须走。
And and She has to go.
她去了汉普顿宫，对吧？
She gets to Hampton Court, doesn't it?
因为你已经嘲笑过这个说法，说凯瑟琳·霍华德的幽灵仍然萦绕在汉普顿宫。
Because you've already sneered at this story that her goat Catherine Howard's ghost still haunts Hampton
宫廷。
Court panel.
她在伦敦塔被处决。
She's executed at the Tower Of London.
是的。
Yeah.
但她是在汉普顿宫被捕的，当时她正试图前往亨利的教堂，直到今天，她的尖叫声仍能在周围回荡。
But it she she gets arrested at Hampton Court, and she's trying to get to Henry in his chapel, and her screams to this day can be heard echoing round
力量。
the power.
这其实是一个很好的例子。
This is another good example, actually.
这是都铎历史被夸大其词的又一个绝佳例证。
This is another brilliant example of the inflation of Tudor history.
是
Are
你还好吗？
you alright?
所以
So
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