75. 东印度公司

坦焦尔，海得拉巴。

Tanjore, Hyderabad.

突然间，你原本拥有一个拥有百万大军的庞大帝国，现在却变成了零散分布的众多小城邦。

Suddenly, what where you had one enormous mega state with a million men under arms, you suddenly have a fragment fragmentary scattering of tiny city states.

而此时崛起并趁机吞并这些碎片的两股力量，是两家竞争的东印度公司——英国和法国的公司。

And and the two forces that emerge at this point to hoover that up are the two East India companies, the rival English and French.

完美。

Perfect.

汤姆，我觉得我们现在该休息一下了。

Let's Tom, I think we should take a break right now.

好的。

Yep.

然后我们再回来，继续讲东印度公司如何崛起，因为我们马上就要讲到那场战役

And then we'll come back, and we'll have the East India companies rise to because we've got the the battle

了，卡利卡特和

of Classy and

克莱西和克莱夫的战役，以及所有这些即将展开。

The battle of Classy and Clive and All that to come.

所以我们得加快节奏了。

So we're gonna have to we're gonna have to speed up.

我们会先休息一下，补充能量，然后很快回来，迅速推进接下来的内容。

We're gonna take a break in order to replenish our energy, and then we'll come back very, very quickly and move through all this.

好的。

Okay.

马上回来。

Back in a sec.

欢迎回到《历史的余音》。

Welcome back to the rest is history.

我们正在与威廉·达尔林普尔讨论东印度公司，而我们正面临印度的无政府状态。

We're talking the East India Company with William Dalrymple, and we are facing, to coin a word, anarchy in India.

莫卧儿帝国正在瓦解，而东印度公司——一家商人公司——几乎就停驻在这个即将消亡的庞然大物的侧翼。

The Mughal Empire is in a process of implosion, And the East India Company, a company of merchants, are basically parked on the flank of this expiring behemoth.

他们在孟加拉，威利，这地方可以说是印度最富庶的地区，对吧？

They're in Bengal, which, Willie, is kind of really I mean, it's it's the richest area in India, is it?

在当时，这可能是世界上最富庶的地区。

Richest area in the world probably, at this point.

因为这是世界历史上仅有的两个时刻之一，印度的产出超过了中国。

Because this is one of only two moments of of world history that India is producing more than China.

没错。

Right.

这种情况曾在遥远的古代出现过一次，然后又在十八世纪中期再次发生。

It happened once in in distant antiquity, and then it happens again in the mid eighties.

因此，征税变得极为重要。

And so it it it's very important that the taxes are collected.

有一段对赛义德·雷兹·汗的精彩描述，我想你提到过他，他有时会把不缴税的官员和人员扔进一个充满腐烂废物、满是蠕虫的坑里。

And so there's this magnificent description of this guy called Syed Raiz Khan, who I think you mentioned, who who would sometimes place airing officials and people who did not pay their taxes into a pit containing waste in such a state of putrefaction as to be full of worms.

他还强迫他们穿上塞满活猫的皮制长裤，并强迫他们喝下混入盐的水牛奶。

He would also use to oblige them to wear leather long drawers filled with live cats, and he would force them to drink buffalo's milk mixed with salt.

所以如果国内税务局在听的话。

So if the Inland Revenue listen.

任何来自国内税务局的人都在听这个。

Anyone from the Inland Revenue is listening in on this.

我认为让逃税者穿上装满活猫的皮制长裤是个绝妙的主意。

I think the idea of making tax defaulters wear leather long drawers filled with live cats is a is a brilliant one.

我最近在Instagram上看到你的猫，汤姆，它看起来是个非常安静的家伙，非常耐心地看着主人打开约克郡饼干的盒子。

I I recently saw your cat on on Instagram, Tom, where he looked a very quiescent fellow who who was extremely patient with his master opening boxes of Yorkshire cookies.

我知道。

I know

那是其中之一。

that was either.

那是那只母猫。

That was that was the female one.

但那只公猫，

But but the male cat,

他啊，我的意思是，我们昨天做了一个播客，他真的打断了我们。

he's he's I mean, he interrupt we did a podcast yesterday, and he interrupted us, actually.

所以我知道他非常非常

So I know that he's very very

你不会希望他这样

you wouldn't want him to

威利说的是一种饼干茶。

what Willie is talking about is the biscuit tea.

饼干茶。

The biscuit tea.

没错。

Exactly.

嗯，这很有东印度公司的风格。

Well, that's very East India

公司，对吧？

Company, isn't it?

这正是关键所在。

That's that's what it's all about.

所以，威利，本质上来说，这些巨头一直在运作一套剥削机制。

So we so, Willie, essentially, there is this apparatus of exploitation that the moguls have been running.

说东印度公司基本上是接管了这一切，这在多大程度上是公平的呢？

To what to what extent is it fair to say that, basically, the East India Company just take it over?

这种比较并不像人们可能希望的那样清晰，因为莫卧儿王朝，无论你采取印度右翼的观点——认为他们最终是入侵者和外国人，还是采取尼尔维安的观点——认为他们自十二月起就生活在印度，和十八世纪英格兰的诺曼法国人一样完全融入了印度，他们已经完全成为印度的一部分，这里就是他们的家园。

It's not as neat a comparison as as as one one might like because the Moguls, whether you take the right wing Indian view that they're ultimately invaders and foreigners, or you take the Neruvian view that they've been living in India since the December that they're as Indian as the Norman French are by the eighteenth century England, that that they are fully integrated into India and this is their home.

他们长期统治，并投资于作为印度统治者必须做的基础事务，比如粮仓，因为大家都知道，季风每几年就会失败一次，你需要储备粮食来养活人民。

They are they they rule for the long term, and they invest in simple things that you need to do if you're an Indian ruler in things like grain stores so that, you know, everyone knows that that monsoons fail once every few years, and you need a stock of grain to feed your people.

他们投资于各种长期经济建设，而这些都是一个国家所需要的。

They invest in in all sorts of long term economic investment which which a country needs.

东印度公司统治初期的显著特点是，正如你所指出的，他们不仅利用莫卧儿的税收体系并高效地从中攫取财富，而且完全没有对这些人民负起责任的意识。

What's notable about the beginning of East India Company rule is that not only do they, as you suggest, use the Mogul tax system and and draw wealth from that, which they do do extremely efficiently, they have no sense of being responsible for these people.

他们完全没有那种

There's no sense in which they are

对。

Right.

除了统治他们之外什么都不做。

Doing anything more than ruling them.

他们也不认为这是他们的职责。

And they don't think it's their job.

所以，例如，当我们遭遇这场严重的饥荒时，并不是说它比印度历史上任何一次饥荒都更严重。

So when, for example, we have this terrific famine which breaks out, it's not that it's it's a worse famine than India's ever seen before.

只是没有人去建立粮仓，也没有在公司管辖的地区提供施粥点，对吧。

It's just that no one has bothered making any grain stores or in company territory providing soup kitchens or Right.

这甚至比亚马逊提供的还要少。

It's simply more than Amazon would provide

现在的施粥点。

soup kitchens now.

这已经足够了。

It's it's enough.

所以在勒克瑙，同样的饥荒发生了，但纳瓦布让所有人都去建造一座伊玛目庙，这座巨大的白色建筑至今仍存。

So in in in in in Lucknow, the same famine takes place, but they the the nawab gets everybody to to build an Imamvara, which is still there, this enormous white elephant of a building.

但你知道，人们得到了基本的报酬。

But, you know, people get basic pay.

他们可以自己弄到一些食物，因此没有饿死。

They can they can themselves some food, and they don't die.

这是个‘以工代赈’项目。

This is keen eater program.

正是如此。

Exactly that.

对。

Right.

没错。

Exactly.

但公司却不这么做，只是任由一百万人死去。

But the company doesn't do that, and it just lets a million people die.

所以你可以看出明显的区别。

So you can draw a real distinction.

两者确实都是剥削性的制度。

They're both, it's quite true, are exploitative systems.

莫卧儿统治时期征税非常沉重，就直接税收而言，甚至可能比东印度公司还要高一点。

The Mughal rule taxes very heavily, and in terms of straight tax, probably taxed tiny bit more heavily even than the East India Company.

但不同的是，莫卧儿人将自己视为统治者，认为自己不仅享有统治富饶领土的特权，也负有责任。

But the difference is that the they do very the Moguls see themselves as rulers and see themselves as having responsibilities as well as the perks of of ruling a very rich territory.

领土。

Territory.

而公司根本不会这样想。

The company simply doesn't.

而且每个人都还很年轻。

And everyone is young.

他们都是二十多岁。

They're in their twenties.

他们想回到英国，开启议会生涯。

They wanna get back to England and start a parliamentary career.

只要有机会能快速赚一笔，他们往往会这么做。

And if there's any way they can just make a quick buck, they tend to.

这引出了

Well, that raises

你正在获得

And you're getting

一个很好的问题，威利，来自斯蒂芬·延森的提问。

a good question, Willie, that we've got from Stefan Jensen.

他说，这些人是谁？

He says, who who are these people?

你刚才说他们很年轻。

So you said they're young.

他们二十多岁。

They're in their twenties.

他说，这些人本质上是否相当于今天离开牛津剑桥后，进入战略咨询公司和投资银行参加精英学徒计划的人？

He says, are they basically the equivalent of people working on apprenticeship, elite apprenticeship schemes for sort of strategic consultancies and investment banks today when they leave Oxbridge?

还是说他们是来自底层、努力向上爬的人？他们到底是什么样的人？

Or or are they are they people from the bottom who are working their way up, or what are they exactly?

从阶级角度来看，这是英国永恒的话题，他们属于中上层，但不是最顶层，因为有太多人在东印度公司去世了。

So in terms of class, the the perennial English question, they're mid they're they're middle upper rank, but they're not the top, simply because so many people die in the East India Company.

我的意思是，如果你16岁就加入东印度公司——那是你能加入的最年长年龄，所有人都是这个年纪。

I mean, the simple fact is if you if you join the East India Company at the age of 16, which was the oldest you could join it, everyone The oldest.

他们确实是年龄最大的。

They were literally the oldest.

他们收留15岁的孩子，把他们送去文书楼，花一两年时间学习会计和语言，然后就派他们出发了。

They they they were taking kids of 15 and stripping them out, and then they spend a year or two in the writers building learning accountancy and languages, and then they off they go.

然后他们就死了。

And then they die.

明白了。

Right.

而且

And

他们中的大多数人，如果可能的话，都在30岁或35岁前离开了。

most of them, if they can, are out are out by 30 or 35.

死亡率是多少？

And what's the death rate?

三分之二。

Two thirds.

天哪。

Goodness.

三分之二的人都死了。

Two thirds die.

三分之二的人死了，其中三分之一在第一年就去世了。

Two thirds die and one third die the first year.

好的。

Okay.

哇。

Wow.

所以这是一场巨大的灾难。

So it's a massive carnage.

当你去加尔各答的墓地，比如公园街墓地时，你会看到一排排乔治亚风格的方尖碑。

And you go to those cemeteries in Calcutta, Park Street Cemetery, and there's these lines and lines of Georgian obelisks.

很多人在一两年内就去世了。

And and, you know, a lot of them die one or two years.

其中很多是孩子。

A lot of them are children.

有些人在那里结婚，但他们的孩子却夭折了。

Some of get married out there, and and their children just die.

正如一位英国或苏格兰学者亚历山大·汉密尔顿所说，他们在孟加拉地区像腐烂的羊一样死去。

As as as one English or Scottish scholar, Alexander Hamilton puts it, they die like rotting sheep in Bengal.

所以，如果你是达文波特公爵的儿子，你不会加入东印度公司。

So so if you were top a top, if you were the duke of Davenport's son, you wouldn't join the East India Company.

然而，如果你像我家人那样，出身于苏格兰乡绅家庭，收入始终赶不上社会地位的期望。

However, if you were from the background my family, which you're from, which was provincial Scottish gentry whose income never quite matched their social aspirations.

你只能硬着头皮上。

You pile in.

这正是你送年幼的兄弟或小儿子们去那里的原因，希望其中有人能活得足够久，赚到一些钱。

This is absolutely what where you send your younger brothers and younger sons in the hope that one of them will live long enough to make some money.

而就我妻子的家族——弗雷泽家族而言，众所周知，六个人去了，只有一个人回来。

And in the case of my wife's family, the Frasers, famously, six go out, one comes back.

所以，威尔，这种巨大的损耗率意味着，正如你一开始所说，那里几乎没有英国人。

So, Willie, this this attritional rate, it means as you've said you said at the beginning of the of the episode, basically, there there are very few British people out there.

所以，不。

And so No.

因此，当我们看克莱夫时，他可以说是白手起家的典型代表，靠欺骗、耍手段和强取豪夺爬上财富巅峰，他赢得了普拉西战役。

And so when we look at Clive, who I guess is the the archetype of the self made man who scams and tricks and strong arms his way to a position of incredible wealth, he he he wins the battle of Plassey.

他实际上征服了孟加拉。

He essentially conquers Bengal.

他是在许多印度资助者的协助下进行这一行动的。

He's doing that in association with a lot of Indian backers.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，这并不是一种英国式的接管。

I mean, it's it's it's it's not a kind of British takeover.

这本质上是一场英印联合政变。

It's it's an Anglo Indian coup, essentially.

普拉西战役的关键在于，他不仅仅是在许多印度资助者的协助下进行这一行动。

So the crucial point about Plassey is that it's not just he's doing it in association with a lot of Indian backers.

他是受人雇佣去

He is paid to

这么做

do it

由一位印度银行家支付报酬。

by an Indian banker.

他从未想过要攻打普拉西。

He hadn't thought of fighting Plassey.

所以，简而言之，故事是这样的：七年战争即将爆发。

He he so the story, in a nutshell, is that the seven year war is about to break out.

东印度公司收到一份档案，一份不可靠的情报档案，结果完全错误。

And the East India Company get given a dossier, a dodgy dossier, an intelligence dossier that turns out to be completely wrong.

有位船长看到一大批法国船只在波尔洛雷尔港装载火炮，正朝某个方向驶去，于是向东印度公司报告说它们正前往孟加拉。

And some captain has seen a whole load of French ships loading cannon at Port L'Oreal and heading off and tells the East India Company it's heading to Bengal.

但实际上，它们是前往加拿大。

In fact, it's heading to Canada.

而七年战争最终在加拿大爆发，伴随着类似《最后的莫希干人》那样的场景：独木舟横渡休伦湖，还有在华盛顿州北部发生的割头皮等种种事情。

And that's where the Seven Year War in the end breaks out with a lot of sort of, you know, Last of the Mohican stuff of war canoes crossing Lake Huron and all that sort of stuff and scalping in in up in top Washington state and and all that sort of thing.

但正因为这份错误的情报，东印度公司前往海军部报告，称他们收到消息说有一支庞大的法国舰队正准备进攻孟加拉。

But because of this, the East India Company goes to the admiralty and says we've got a report saying that there's a huge French fleet going to attack Bengal.

于是他们派出了罗伯特·克莱夫，他此前已来过印度一次，虽然以糟糕的会计能力闻名，却是一位极具天赋、未经正规训练的军人。

And so they send out Robert Clive, who has already been out to India once before, made a name for himself as as a rubbish accountant, but an incredibly talented, untrained soldier.

他是一个古怪、非凡且有自杀倾向的人，曾两次因抑郁试图开枪自杀未遂，但后来却在对抗法国人的战争中找到了自己的天职。

He's this sort of weird, extraordinary, suicidal man who twice has failed to shoot himself through depression, but who then finds his metier in soldiering against the French.

所以他就是

So he's the

历史上最致命的会计师，在

most lethal accountant in history, in

某种意义上。

a way.

他是最致命的会计师。

He's the most lethal accountant.

我的意思是，成年世界里有很多致命的会计师，但他绝对是头号狠角色会计师。

I mean, there are many lethal accountants in in the in the adults, but he's definitely the number one badass accountant.

他有着这种自杀般的倾向。

And he has this sort of suicidal tendency.

他总是在季风雷暴的夜晚从后方发动袭击。

He he attacks at night in in monsoon thunderstorms from the rear.

他，还有他，你知道的，他做的每件事都可能轻易出错。

He and he and, you know, it could so ease everything he does could so easily go wrong.

但他却有一种惊人的直觉，知道能将事情推到多远，如何在波兰评估局势。

And yet he has this amazing sense of how far he can push things, how to size up in Poland.

当他进攻时，他来到印度，却发现根本没有法国舰队，这无疑是个尴尬的局面。

When he's attacking so he he comes out to India, finds there's no French fleet, and, you know, it's it's an embarrassing situation.

但幸运的是，传来消息说加尔各答已被纳瓦布的西拉吉·乌德·达乌拉攻占。

But luckily, the news comes that Calcutta has fallen to the Nawab's Sirajidala.

于是他率领他的海军陆战队舰队沿胡格利河向上游进发，夺回了加尔各答。

So he sails his his navy fleet of marines up to up to the Hooghly, and he takes Calcutta back.

他正准备回家。

And he's about to go home.

你说得对，这正是加尔各答黑洞事件的高潮。

You're right to the top of is the black hole of Calcutta incident.

这发生在加尔各答黑洞事件之后，所以是苏拉吉

This is after the black hole of So Suraj

从英国人手中攻占了加尔各答，把他们关进了黑牢。

has captured Calcutta from the British, bung them in the black hole.

是的。

Sure.

他们确实有过很多争论，然后他撤退了。

Have they you know, much debated, and then he retreats.

确实，确实发生过黑牢事件。

Definitely definitely, there was a black hole.

问题是到底有多少人死亡，各种估计差异很大，有的说一百人，有的说只有六十人或四十人。

The question is how many died and and estimates vary widely, whether it's a 100 or whether it's just 60 or something or 40.

但无论死了多少人，我们永远无法得知确切数字，而克莱夫恰好因为这份可疑的报告，带着舰队在场。

But however many died, and we'll never actually know the figure, Clive, by chance, because of this dodgy dossier, is on hand with a fleet.

他没有去进攻法国人，而是掉转矛头对付西拉吉，夺回了加尔各答，正准备回家。

And rather than attacking the French, he turns it on Siraj, takes Calcutta, is about to go home.

任务完成。

Job done.

就在那时，这是一个常被英印双方叙述所模糊的关键点：朱格雷特，这位大银行家，发明了一种无需物理运输即可将孟加拉的税收收入传送到德里的方法。

And at that point, and this is crucial point that's often obfuscated in both English and and Indian accounts of the battle, the juggert set, who is the big banker who's invented a way of getting tax revenue from Bengal to Delhi without marching it out physically.

物理运输。

Physically.

在过去，人们会把税收收入装上一百辆马车，一路护送穿过北方邦到德里。

In the old days, you take the tax revenue, put it on a on a line of a 100 bullet cuts and march it through UP to Delhi.

但如今，德里和北方邦已陷入无政府状态，通过物理方式运送资金变得极其困难。

But because Delhi and and UP has now given way to anarchy, it's very difficult to get the money through in a physical form.

于是，朱格雷特说：没问题。

So the jacket set says, no problem.

只要把钱送到我在穆希达巴德的办公室，你们就可以在德里凭信用提取，而我会收取15%的费用。

Just deliver it to my office in Moshidabad, and you can draw it by credit in Delhi, and I will take 15%.

非常感谢。

Thank you very much.

由于无政府状态以及物理运送资金的困难，莫卧儿皇帝们采用了这种方式，因此孟加拉税收的15%都流入了这家银行机构。

And because of the the the anarchy and because of the difficulty of getting finance there physically, the the Mughal emperors do this, and 15% of the Bengal tax revenues go to this one banking app.

那他也会吗？

And so will he?

先让我把故事讲完。

Will turn into just finish the story.

于是他们成了印度的罗斯柴尔德家族，正是这些人写信给克莱夫，让他别急着回马德拉斯。

So they they turn into the Rothschilds of India, and it's those guys who write to Clive and say, don't go back to Madras quite yet.

把事情做完。

Finish the job.

进军马西达巴德，那里离加尔各答只有两天的路程，除掉罗杰·道勒爵士。

March up to Mashidabad, two days march from Calcutta, and kill Sir Roger Dauler.

我会 personally 支付你，罗伯特·克莱夫，一百万英镑，再支付东印度公司另外一百万英镑。

And I will pay you personally, Robert Clive, £1,000,000, and I will pay the East India Company a further £1,000,000.

克莱夫说：非常感谢。

And Clive says, thank you very much.

他根本没问任何人。

He doesn't ask anyone.

他没有给马德拉斯写信。

He doesn't write to Madras.

这与他原本被派去执行的任务完全不同，但他还是去做了。

It's totally different mission to the one he'd been sent on, but he goes and does it.

一旦他进入那里，苏拉杰死后，他就进军穆尔希达巴德的国库， literally 将黄金塞满自己的口袋，然后装满60艘驳船，这些驳船随后顺流而下运往威廉堡。

And once he's in there and Suraj is dead, he marches into the Murchidabad treasury and literally fills first his pockets and then 60 barges with gold, which are then punted downstream to Fort William.

当后来议会调查问他为何觉得自己可以这么做时，他说：‘诸位勋爵，我对自己当时的节制感到惊讶。’

When he's asked later, by the parliamentary inquiry, why he just felt he could do this, he said, my lords, I was astonished in my own moderation.

真的吗？

So really?

真的吗？

Really?

那么所以什么是

So so what's

有趣的是，这个故事中似乎存在着一种英印协同效应。

fast what's fascinating about this story is that there's a there seems to be a kind of Anglo Indian synergy.

所以克里夫的行为基本上就像纳迪尔·沙阿一样。

So you've got Clive basically behaving like, you know, like Nader Shah.

我的意思是，他实际上做的是完全相同的事。

I mean, he's basically doing exactly the same.

没错。

Correct.

但你也知道，资本主义在英格兰和英国正在发展，东印度公司正是乘着这股浪潮而起。

But you also you have you know we we know that capitalism is developing in England and and Britain, and the East India Company is kind of riding that wave.

但显然，印度也在兴起资本主义。

But, clearly, you also have capitalism emerging in India.

你看到印度正在出现类似比特币雏形的东西。

You've got these kind of proto Bitcoin kind of developing in India.

那么，究竟是英国的资本主义影响了印度商人的运作方式，还是印度商人影响了英国人的做法，抑或是两者融合，形成了这种混合的英印资本主义形态？

So so what's are there is it British capitalism that's interviews that's influencing the way that Indian merchants operate, or is it Indian merchants that are influencing how the British operate, or are they kind of fusing to create this hybrid Anglo Indian form of of capitalism?

所以你看到的是两群银行家用同一种语言在交流。

So so what you've got is is two groups of bankers speaking the same language to each other.

尽管一众耆那教徒和印度教徒素食者最初来自焦特布尔邦，但马瓦里人却是印度顶尖的银行家。

And although one or are vegetarian Hindus and Jains originally from Jodhpur State, the Mawaris, who are this the Mawaris are the kind of uber bankers of India.

直到今天，他们虽然人数极少，却掌控着约25%的印度资本。

Even today, they own something like 25% of Indian capital, where there's only a handful of them.

时至今日，印度许多大型企业家族仍然是马瓦里人。

And a lot of the big houses well, a lot of the big business houses in India to this day are Marwari.

因此，马瓦里人希望一切照常，他们通过向英国东印度公司、荷兰东印度公司、葡萄牙人、丹麦人和法国人放贷赚得盆满钵满。

And so the the jugger sets want business as usual, and they're making a fortune lending money to people like Company, the Dutch East India Company, and the Portuguese, and the Danes, and the French.

西拉杰·乌德·达乌拉袭击加尔各答，不仅威胁到东印度公司，也威胁到马瓦里人。

And Siraja Dhanur raiding Calcutta is not just a threat to the East India Company, it's a threat to the jugular sets.

因此他们说，我们必须除掉这个彻底的疯子——西拉杰·乌德·达乌拉，而英国对西拉杰·达乌拉的污名化宣传，绝不仅仅是英国的宣传。

So they say, we've gotta get rid of this this complete psychopath, Siraja Dhanur, who clearly and certainly British propaganda against Sir Raja Dalla is not just British propaganda against Sir Raja Dalla.

他显然就是一个彻头彻尾的疯子。

He was clearly a complete psycho.

莫卧儿帝国的账目、法国的账目，以及所有人的账目都清楚地证明了这一点。

And Mogul accounts and French accounts and everyone's accounts make this clear.

因此，贾加塞特出资让东印度公司首次动用军事力量对付印度人。

So Jagaset paid for the East India Company to use its military force on Indians for the first time.

从那时起，不仅贾加塞特，其他印度银行家也继续将资金投入东印度公司。

And from that point, not just the Jugger Set, but other Indian bankers continue to port their finances to the to the East India Company.

公司。

Company.

为什么？

Why?

因为东印度公司是商人。

Because the East India Company are businessmen.

他们理解利息的概念、按时还款，以及延迟还款时需支付的渐进式利息等。

They understand the conception of interest and repaying on time and the gradations of of incremental interest that you must pay if you're late and so on.

而如果你借钱给一位马拉塔军阀，当你要求还款时，他很可能会倒吊着你，把你活活打死。

While if you're lending spade to a Maratha warlord and you ask for your money back, he's quite likely to hang you up by your heels and and and beat you to death.

因此，印度银行家与公司之间存在着一种非常明确的共同利益共识。

And so there's a very clear mutual understanding of mutual interests going on between Indian bankers and the company.

而且他们是同一类人，说着同样的语言，一起赚取了巨额利润。

And they are you know, they're the same sort of people talking the same sort of language, and they all make a huge profit together.

威利，我想问一个问题，因为你正在谈论七年战争，以及这件事如何发生在七年战争的背景下，这引出了迈克尔·普里斯特在推特上提出的一个绝佳问题。

Willie, I want to ask a question because you're talking about the Seven Years' War and how this happens in the context of the Seven Years' War, and that raises an excellent question which Michael Priest sent in on Twitter.

他说，如果东印度公司不存在，或者它未能及时抓住这些机遇，会不会有其他欧洲竞争者，比如法国或荷兰，尤其是法国——毕竟我们现在处于十八世纪末——取而代之，做同样的事情呢？

He says, if the East India Company didn't exist or if it had been slower to grasp these opportunities, would an another European competitor, let's say the French or the Dutch, particularly the French, I guess, since we're in the late eighteenth century, would not they have moved in and done precisely the same thing?

答案很有可能是会的。

The answer is quite possibly.

荷兰人在那个时候已经退出了竞争格局。

The Dutch are kind of out of the picture by the time

了Classy。

of Classy.

他们在印度尼西亚仍有存在，但早已不复荷兰东印度公司昔日的辉煌。

They're around in Indonesia, they're certainly no longer the great days of the VOC.

而且作为一支军事力量，他们实际上已经不复存在。

And and as a military force, they don't really exist.

但法国人确实仍然存在，而且他们的商业运作效率远低于英国东印度公司，因为他们受凡尔赛宫廷的控制。

But the French very much are around, and they are a less efficient business operation than the English East India Company because they're controlled by the court in Versailles.

而凡尔赛宫廷根本不懂商业，但东印度公司是由一群真正懂得商业的商人经营的。

And the court in Versailles doesn't really understand business, but the the East India Company is just run by a bunch of merchants who do understand

金融，对吧。

finance Right.

是的。

Yeah.

还有利润。

And profit.

因此，它对经济需求的反应远比法国东印度公司更迅速，而后者始终是一个政治性运作。

And therefore, it responds to economic need much more readily than the the the French East India Company, which is always a political operation.

而且，克利夫是否也能比法国人更迅速地行动，因为法国人可能因为顾虑更多而更谨慎？

And is it also that Clive can act quickly in a way that maybe a Frenchman would be more frightened because of the cause or something?

这是因为你能很早就获得这些机会。

The case because you get these, I mean, get these early on.

我的意思是，克莱夫在1740年代的首次胜利——比普拉西战役早了十年——是针对这些非常机智的法国人。

I mean, Clive's first victories in the seventeen forties, a a decade before Placie, are against these very quick witted Frenchmen.

其中一人是德洛里斯托波勋爵的儿子，他最初建立了整个法国东印度公司，并创建了整个法国银行网络。

One of whom is the son of Lord de Loristorypod who sets up the whole French East India Company in the first place and who creates the whole French banking network.

还有一个非常有趣的人物，原本是苏格兰人，因一场为荣誉而起的决斗后逃离苏格兰，后来成为法国的大银行家。

And one of the most interesting figures, a Scotsman originally who fled Scotland with a with a due after a duel over a point of honor and becomes the big the big French banker.

去年有一本非常出色的詹姆斯·巴肯的传记。

There's a fantastic James Bakken biography last year.

他的儿子是克莱夫在1740年代卡纳蒂克战争中的对手。

His son is the adversary of Clive in the seventeen forties of the Carnatic Wars.

而法国人在那里运作得非常高效。

And and the the French operate very efficiently there.

所以，是的，如果克莱夫不存在，如果德·拉阿里斯托万勋爵掌控了全局，那么如今印度的通用语言可能是法语，孟加拉俱乐部的餐食也可能比至今仍在供应的布朗温莎汤要好得多。

So, yes, there is a strong possibility that had Clive not existed, had and had the lord de la Aristovans had the run of the game, that you'd now have French as the spoken language of of India and maybe rather better food in in the Bengal clubs than than brown Windsor soup, which is still served

我记得去过本地治里，吃过一份羊角面包，这小小的片段正是我们可能拥有的另一种未来。

as a I remember going to Pondicherry and having a croissant, so that that little glimpse there of what might have been.

但是，威利，让我们把这个问题扩大一点。

But, Willie, just to broaden that question out.

所以，英国人基本上吞并了孟加拉，而到了这个时候，公司意识到他们可以招募军队，接下来主要的军事焦点就是他们在印度南部遭遇了迈索尔的提普苏丹，他非常热衷于火箭。

So so the British basically annex Bengal, and then the next kind of major focus for for military engagement, by this point, the the company realized that they can recruit armies, is that they they come up against Tipu Sultan in Mysore in the South Of India, who's a great enthusiast for rockets.

多米尼克，我们刚才在谈康格里夫火箭。

Dominic, we were talking about Congreve rockets.

康格里夫火箭。

Congreve rockets.

提普苏丹基本上冒犯了他们。

Tipu Sultan who basically offends them.

对于南印度的印度教徒来说，他们深受军阀混战和无政府状态的折磨，英国人和提普苏丹之间有什么区别呢？

For for for the Hindus, say, in Southern India who were afflicted by the kind of anarchy, by rival warlords, whatever, what's the difference between the British and Tipu Sultan?

他们都是一神论者。

They're both monotheists.

对于他们来说，统治者是谁真的有区别吗？

Does it make any difference to them who who the ruler is?

因此，从某种意义上说，这是印度人过去五十年来不断提出的一个重大问题，而你得到的答案会完全取决于你站在政治光谱的哪一端。

So this is, in the sense, one of the great questions that Indians have asked for fifty years, and you get completely different answers depending on which end of the political spectrum you are.

对于左翼、尼尔维安派来说，提普是这片土地的儿子，他的祖先早在七百年或六百年前就已定居印度，和任何其他印度人一样地道。

For for a leftist, Neruvian, Tipu is a son of the soil whose ancestors have been in India for, you know, possibly seven hundred years or or six hundred years by this stage, and and who is as Indian as anyone else.

然而，如果你问像斯瓦潘达斯·古普塔这样的印度教右翼历史学家，他会说：不。

However, if you ask a historian like Swapandas Gupta on the Hindu right, will say, no.

他们是外来者。

They are outsiders.

他们仰望麦加。

They look to Mecca.

这明显反映了保罗对印度穆斯林的态度。

Obvious night Paul's attitude to Indian Muslims.

他们并不完全是印度人。

They they they're not fully Indian.

他们在某种程度上是不同的。

They're somehow different.

而这正是当今印度的重大争论。

And this is, you know, the big debate in in in India today.

印度穆斯林是印度的一部分吗？还是不是？

Are are Indian Muslims part of India or are they not?

阿拉伯人说，是的。

And and the Arabians say, yes.

他们是。

They are.

印度人民党和国民志愿服务团说他们不是。

The BJP and the RSS say they're not.

他们确实是，你知道，国民志愿服务团的创始人将他们比作欧洲的闪米特少数群体——犹太人，戈尔克说，正如我们的国家在最初的国民志愿服务团政策文件中所定义的那样，我们必须对我们的少数群体做德国人在水晶之夜对他们少数群体所做的事情。

They are and, you know, the the founder of the RSS compares them to the Semitic minority in Europe, the Jews, and we must do, says Goalke, and we, our nation, have defined the original RSS policy document, if you like, we must do to our minority what the Germans did to theirs at Kristallnacht.

但是，威利，在十八世纪末、十九世纪初的时候，绝大多数印度教徒在看到穆斯林苏丹或英国东印度公司的基督教官员时，会不会觉得，不行。

But but, Willie, in in terms of the eighteenth century, late eighteenth century, beginnings of the nineteenth century, the mass of Indians who who are Hindu, when they look at Muslims Muslim sultans or britishcom Christian company officers, do they feel, no.

我们不能接受英国人，因为他们完全是外国人？

We can't have the British because they are completely foreign?

还是说，谁统治他们其实根本没什么区别？

Or does it not really make any difference who their rulers is?

只要统治者能提供一定程度的稳定和安全？

As long as the rulers are providing a measure of stability, a measure of of security?

这就是东印度公司能够建立统治的原因吗？

And is that why the the the the Eastern European Company is able to establish its rule?

归根结底，是否足够多的印度人愿意接受它，把它视为安全的保障者，哪怕他们再贪婪？

Ultimately, is that enough Indians are willing to accept it as as basically the kind of the guarantee the guarantor of security no matter how rapacious they may be?

因为，你知道，印度农民早就习惯了被剥削。

Because, basically, you know, Indian peasantry are used to to to being grafted.

你知道的吧？

You know?

这种状况已经持续了几个世纪之久。

That's the kind of standard for centuries and centuries.

所以，如果问我个人的看法，我认为对于印度人来说，被东印度公司统治和被蒂普苏丹统治有着天壤之别。

So if I'm asking my my opinion, my opinion is that there is a huge difference for an Indian between being ruled by the East India Company and Tipu Sultan.

是的。

Yes.

两者都与印度教徒信仰不同，但提普苏丹在文化上已融入印度。

Both are a different religion to the Hindus, but Tipu Sultan's culturally become part of India.

如果你今天去卡纳塔克邦走一走，尽管他因在王国之外摧毁敌人的寺庙而声名不佳，但迈索尔周边的所有寺庙都拥有被称为‘帕贾昌林加姆’的圣物，这些是提普苏丹赠予迈索尔、卡纳塔克邦和泰米尔纳德邦各大寺庙的。

If you go around Karnataka today, although he has a reputation for having destroyed temples of his enemies outside his kingdoms, All the temples around Mysore have what they call Pajcharlingams, which are given by Tibusultan to the great temples of across Mysore and Karnataka and Tamil Nadu.

所以我认为这并不相同。

So I don't think it's the same.

但你问题的第二部分是：人们支持公司是因为它带来稳定，这属实吗？

But is the second part of your question, is it true that people back the company for stability?

毫无疑问，是的。

Unquestionably, yes.

尤其是商人阶层。

And that's particularly the merchant class.

流浪者并非孤例。

The jugger sets are not alone.

印度有一股强大的商业力量，始终倾向于向该公司放贷，而不是向迪普或马拉塔人放贷。

There is a whole wave of business India that consistently lends to the company in preference to lending to Dipu or the Marathas.

尽管马拉塔人与他们同属一种宗教，而且马拉塔人，比如在1740年代横扫孟加拉，大肆掠夺他们视为莫卧儿领土的地区，即使那里绝大多数人口是印度教徒。

Even though the Marathas are the same are the same religion and the same and and the Marathas, for example, you know, burst through Bengal in the seventeen forties and and do a lot of looting and plundering of what they regard as Mughal territory, even though the majority of the people there are Hindu.

这正是加尔各答崛起的重要原因之一，因为加尔各答原本只是一个小型商业殖民地，却在1740年代急剧扩张，原因在于它拥有至今仍被称为‘穆拉塔护城河’的防御工事。

And this is one of the big things that leads to the growth of Calcutta because Calcutta, which had been a small merchant colony, grows enormously in the 1740 cause it has what is still called the Murata Ditch.

如今它已变成环城公路，但当年是公司为抵御马拉塔人而挖掘的护城河，而马拉塔人从未进攻过加尔各答。

It's now a ring road, but it was the ditch dug by the by the company to protect Calcutta against the Muratas, and the Muratas never attacked Calcutta.

因此，这也是许多马瓦里银行家从拉贾斯坦邦迁往孟加拉的关键时期。

So that's also the point at which a lot of the Marwari bankers moved from Rajasthan to Bengal.

此外，公司在加尔各答建立了一套类似今天迪拜的制度——只要富人将财富投资于该殖民地，就可以免税。

And on top of this, the company establishes in Calcutta a system a bit like Dubai today, where basically rich people can go tax free if they invest their wealth in the colony.

于是，大量北印度银行家纷纷迁往加尔各答，以避税并寻求英国枪炮的保护。

And so you get this huge hemorrhage of of bankers from North India moving to Calcutta to avoid taxes and to be protected by British guns.

因此，从某种意义上说，这解释了让我们感到困惑的难题：为什么如此多的印度人会违背我们所认为的印度国家利益，去当兵或向这个贪婪、侵略性的外国公司放贷？

So although it's a very in a sense, that explains the difficult thing for us, which we find so hard to understand, how so many Indians could act against what we presume to be Indian national interest by becoming a seapoy or lending money to this this rapacious, greedy, aggressive foreign company.

人们去那里是因为那里能保护他们，而且他们能从中赚钱。

People people went to it because it protected them and because they could make money out of it.

尽管这可能意味着多个王朝的覆灭和不幸者的被掠夺，但如果你是个富有的商人，你可以通过与公司合作、放贷来赚钱，并带着巨额财富退休——英国人协助商人阶层从莫卧儿贵族手中榨取财富，并将其交给新兴的银行家和商人阶层。

Even though the it might mean the destruction of various dynasties and the looting of of the unlucky, if you were a rich merchant, you could make your money by joining hands with the company, lending the money, and and and retire with with huge fortunes, which which the the British assist the merchant classes in stripping from the Mughal aristocracy and giving to the new the new rising banking and and and merchant classes.

好的，威利。

Okay, Willie.

我们时间有点不够了。

We're running out of time a bit.

所以告诉我，本·麦金太尔真的跟你说过你在埃奇韦斯说不上话吗？

So tell me what what go I don't believe that Ben McIntyre said to you that you wouldn't get a word in Edgeways.

我的意思是，那确实。

I mean, that's I that's mean

如果他确实准备好了。

And if he did prepared.

你已经彻底证明他错了，我得说。

You've you've you've proved him comprehensively wrong, I will say.

飞行员减少。

Shrinking pilot.

那么，哪里出问题了？

So so so what goes wrong?

对吧？

Right?

哪里出问题了？

What goes wrong?

东印度公司就在那里。

The the East India Company is there.

它赚了大笔钱。

It's making tons of money.

它有合作者。

It's got collaborators.

你知道，印度的生活还在继续。

You know, life goes on in India.

如果你是东印度公司的人，一切看起来都很美好。

If you're an East India Company man, all seems rosy.

十九世纪中期出了什么问题？

What goes wrong in the mid nineteenth century?

有两件事出了问题。

So two things go wrong.

首先，十八世纪末发生了一些问题。

First of all, something goes wrong in the late eighteenth century.

世纪。

Century.

普拉西和布克萨尔之后，孟加拉遭到了全面的资产掠夺。

You get such comprehensive asset stripping of Bengal after Plassey and Buxer.

普拉西发生在1757年，布克萨尔发生在1764年。

Plassey in 1756, Buxer in 1765.

这两次重大的公司胜利，使公司在北印度再无有效抵抗。

These two great company victories, leaving no effective opposition in North India to the company.

到了那个时候，这些人简直就把所有能搬走的东西都掠夺一空。

And at that point, these guys just literally just just you know, they strip everything that isn't that can move.

他们开始把织工关进类似织布集中营的地方，据某一资料显示，这些人甚至开始砍断自己的拇指，以免被强迫劳动，无法逃脱这种奴役。

They start locking weavers up in sort of weaving concentration camps so that allegedly, according to one source, they start cutting their own thumbs off so that they're useless, can't weave, and can escape this this sort of slavery.

当1770年饥荒爆发时，根据不同的统计，死亡人数在一百万到六百万之间，大概两百万左右。

And when the seventeen seventy famine breaks out and between one and six million people die, according to whose accounts you take, probably around two million.

这家公司竟然破产了。

The company actually goes bankrupt.

这家曾经看似大到不能倒的公司，一直在向国内输送巨额资金——在饥荒期间，公司职员通过投机牟利，将数百万资金运回英国。

It it this company that had seemed too big to fail, had been sending vast sums of money home, millions are exported during the famine by individual company men who've made profits profiteering.

在1772年，也就是1770到1772年间，这家公司彻底破产了。

And in 1772 between 1770 and 1772, the company goes properly bankrupt.

他们首先求助于刚成立的英格兰银行，但银行资金不足，无力救助。

They first go to the Bank of England, which is just set up, and doesn't have enough money to save it.

于是，议会召开会议，出现了和2008年银行危机后戈登·布兰德为国民西敏寺银行所做之事如出一辙的场景。

So what happens is that parliament meets and you get the same thing as as Gordon Brand did for NatWest after the two thousand and eight bank collapses.

这实际上将东印度公司从一个极致的自由市场海盗式企业，转变为一种公私合营的模式。

They it basically it turns the East India Company from a the ultimate libertarian free market economic buccaneer into a sort of public private partnership.

因此，到1774年《调节法案》出台时，该公司一半由英国政府所有，这标志着国家开始介入权利事务。

So by 1774 in the regulating act, the company is half owned by the British state, and that's the beginning of state involvement in the Right.

这种介入在十九世纪不断增强。

Which increases towards the nineteenth century.

因此到了十九世纪三十年代，这家公司已不再 functioning 为一家商业组织。

So that by the eighteen thirties, the company's not really functioning as a merchant organization at all.

它更像一个治理型公司，类似于英国广播公司（BBC）。

It's become like a governing corporation rather like the BBC.

他们喜欢这个想法，

They're love the idea of the

BBC征服

BBC conquering

在这里。

over here.

进行骚扰。

Running a harassment.

它是最后一家公司。

It is it is the last of the corporations.

强迫人们制作糟糕的BBC第四电台喜剧节目。

Making forcing people to make terrible Radio four comedy shows.

这正是当初授予该公司特许状的同一份公司宪章，至今仍由BBC持有。

This is this is literally, the the the same the same charter of corporation which is given to the company is still held by the BBC.

这是完全相同的国家机制。

It's exactly the same mechanism of state.

真是令人惊叹的想法。

Amazing thought.

好的。

Okay.

无论如何，进入十九世纪后，该公司逐渐从贸易转向越来越多的政府职能。

Anyway, the so the so the gradually, into the nineteenth century, the company becomes less and less about trade and more and more about government.

随后，在1820年代和1830年代大福音复兴运动期间，随着公司将领们日益高涨的福音派传教活动，整个局面被彻底颠覆。

And then the apple cart is is overturned due to the increasing evangelical proselytization of of company generals during the great evangelical boom of the of the eighteen twenties and eighteen thirties.

克拉彭教派和这些热情洋溢的福音派人士来到印度，开始向列队行进的男孩们诵读圣经，而这些男孩都是虔诚的婆罗门素食者，根本不希望被灌输关于吃基督身体的教义。

And the Clapham sect and all these happy clappy evangelicals come out to India and start reading the bible to see boys on parade who are all good Brahmin vegetarians who do not want to be told about eating the body of Christ.

在这一非常短暂的时期——仅持续了大约二十年——公司突然拥抱了福音派基督教，这主要得益于一位名叫查尔斯·格兰特的福音派领袖，他后来成为公司的董事。

And that for the for this very brief period, and it's just a very short period of about 20, the company suddenly embraces evangelical Christianity largely through somebody called Charles Grant, who's a leading evangelical, who becomes the director of the company.

这最终引发了大规模的反殖民起义，我们国家至今仍称之为‘印度兵变’，而在印度则被称为‘第一次独立战争’。

And this leads to the massive anticolonial uprising that we in this country still call the Indian Mutiny, and which in India is known as the first war of independence.

无论你怎么称呼它，这两种说法其实都不准确。

Whatever you call it Both of which are inaccurate, basically.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我用来讨论这个问题的最后一部著作，称之为‘大起义’。

I mean, I call it the last mogul which deals with this, I call it the great uprising.

是的。

Yeah.

因为它确实是一场叛乱，但在某些地区，如现在，大量民众、部落群体等各种人都加入了进来。

Because it it it is a mutiny, but it's also joined by large swathes of population in certain places like that now, and then tribal groups and all sorts of people jump aboard.

在1857年，爆发了有史以来全球规模最大的反殖民起义。

And in 1857, there breaks out the largest anticolonial revolt to take place anywhere in the world at any point.

数十万人丧生，这完全是一场血腥的混乱。

And hundreds of thousands of people die, and it's a complete bloody mess.

许多在印度的英国人最初就被屠杀。

A lot of the British population in India are slaughtered at the beginning.

随后的报复行动中，北印度的大量印度民众也被屠杀。

A lot of the Indian population of North India are slaughtered in the retribution which follows.

1858年，议会召开会议，说：够了，到此为止。

And parliament meets in 1858 and says, enough's enough.

很多人一直说，你知道，把你们最重要的殖民地交给一群坐在伦敦城里的商人来管理，这太荒谬了。

Lots of people have been saying, you know, this is ridiculous way to run your best colony to hand it over to a bunch of merchants sitting in the city of London.

显然，早就有人在议会里大声疾呼这一点。

Clearly, it's a people have been saying this right very loudly in parliament.

插一句话。

Quick interjection.

它是34Gs。

It is 34 gs.

一开始你说英国人并没有占领印度。

At the beginning, you said the British didn't take India.

是东印度公司占领的，所以这并不是英国政府的行为。

The East India Company did, so it wasn't a British thing.

但刚才你又说，把最好的殖民地交给一群坐在伦敦的商人来管理，这太荒谬了。

But there, you just said this is a ridiculous way to run our best colony.

那么，人们的看法是否已经改变了，现在人们认为……

So have attitudes changed then and people now think

在权力之中？

in the power?

发生变化是因为这家公司作为自由市场理念的代表持续了两百年，但在最后五十年里，它越来越趋向于政府化。

Changed because the the company, was this libertarian free market thing for two hundred years, in its last fifty years does become increasingly government

对。

Right.

一个政府机构，总督由议会任命。

A government agency, and the governor general is appointed by parliament.

是的。

Yes.

比如韦尔斯利勋爵，他非常厌恶这家公司，认为他们就是一群奶酪制造商。

So Lord Lord Wellesley, for example, hates the company and regards it to himself as a bunch of cheesemakers.

永远不要相信像亚历克斯·詹姆斯这样的奶酪制造商。

Never trust a cheesemaker like Alex James.

相信

Trust

奶酪。

a cheese.

所以韦尔斯利，你知道，是个非常有趣的人物，他是一位年轻有抱负的议员，也是威灵顿公爵的哥哥，他决心利用东印度公司——这家企业——的军队来满足大英帝国的需求。

And and so Wellesley, you know, is is a fascinating figure because he's a he's a young ambitious parliamentarian, the elder brother of the duke of Wellington, and he comes out determined to use the army of the East India Company, a corporation, for the British state needs.

对。

Right.

所以他利用它来打击法国在印度的利益，尽管董事会明确表示不同意。

So he uses it to attack French interests in India even though the director said, no.

不。

No.

不。

No.

我们不想要这个。

We don't want this.

我们只想要和平的贸易。

We just want a peaceful trade.

我们只想赚钱。

We wanna make a profit.

而韦尔斯利无视他们的意见，使公司破产，花费了大量资金，大量举债，并且顺便建造了宏伟的建筑，比如总督府，一座以凯德斯顿为原型的宫殿。

And Wellesley overrules them and bankrupts the company, spends a vast quantity of cash, borrows massively, and also, incidentally, builds massive buildings like the governor general's house, a a palace modeled on Kedleston.

这是一个非常奇怪的故事。

It's such an odd story.

这是一个非常奇怪的故事。

It's such an odd story.

所以

So

我觉得，我觉得，我的意思是，我觉得我们已经

I think well, I think, I mean, I think we've we've

然后它被国有化了。

And then it's nationalized.

是的。

Yes.

1858年，它被国有化，成为了英属印度帝国。

1858, it's nationalized, and it becomes the Raj.

但奇怪的是，那个如此著名的英属印度帝国，你知道，在英国的周日晚间剧集中占据重要地位，我们都熟悉吉卜林和日食，但英属印度帝国只存在了九十年。

But the kind of weird thing is that the Raj, which is so famous, you know, and has occupied Sunday night dramas in Britain, and we all know about Kipling and the solar eclipse, but the Raj only lasts ninety years.

是的

Yeah.

连一个世纪都不到。

It doesn't even make a century.

是的

Yeah.

始于1858年。

Started 1858.

1947年被废除。

It's abolished 1947.

我们已经忘记了，相比之下，印度由一家位于伦敦单一办公室的私营公司统治的二百五十年，才是更长久的时期。

And we've forgotten that the much longer period is the two hundred and fifty years when India is run by a private corporation out of one office in London.

好吧，威利，非常感谢你。

Well, Willie, thank you so much.

你已经让听众再也没有理由不理解英国统治印度的惊人过程了。

You have, I don't think anyone listening to this will have any excuse for not appreciating the astonishing way in which, British rule came to India.

我的意思是，这是一个了不起的故事，你讲得非常精彩。

I mean, it is an amazing story, and you you tell it brilliantly.

你的四本书——《暴政》、《白人巨头》、《国王归来》、《最后的巨头》，合称《公司四部曲》，现已出版。

Your four books, Yanarchy, White Moguls, Return of the King, The Last Mogul, The Company Quartet, out now.

如果你还没读过，一定要买来读一读。

Do buy them if you haven't read them.

非常感谢。

Thanks so much.

我们下周再见。

We will be back next week.

我都想不起来下期聊什么了。

Can't remember what with.

但是

But

一些跟历史有关的内容。

Some something historical.

可能是某种历史相关的内容。

Something probably historical.

这算是一个合理的猜测。

It's a it's a fair hunch.

我觉得我们需要具体日期。

I think we want dates.

我们需要用英文表示的日期。

We want dates in in English.

哦，我们已经讨论过了。

Oh, we've had that.

我们已经做过了。

We've done that.

我们已经做过了。

We've done that.

你明显没在听。

You're clearly not listening.

你显然没有在听我们的观众。

You're clearly not listening to our audience.

有积压的工作呢，威利。

With the backlog, Willie.

有一场足球锦标赛正在进行。

There's a football tournament all those There's a football tournament going

那些段子早就过时了。

gags had already been were old gags.

那天晚上，汤姆，你总是很容易就在推特动态上看到它。

You you always had it so readily on your Twitter feed that night, Tom.

我非常失望。

I'm very disappointed.

全都放进播客里了。

It's all gone into the podcast.

这里什么都不浪费。

Nothing goes to waste here.

威利，非常感谢你。

Willie, thanks so much.

我们很快就会再见。

And we will see you all soon.

再见。

Bye bye.

再见。

Bye bye.

感谢收听《余史》。

Thanks for listening to the rest is history.

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网址是 restishistorypod.com。

That's restishistorypod.com.