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欢迎来到《余下皆成历史》，这是我们首次在荷兰托尔实地录制，秉持我们对魅力的敏锐眼光。
Welcome to the rest is history, our very first on location recording in Toll Holland with our unerring eye for glamour.
我们选中了这个绝佳的地点。
We have chosen this fantastic spot.
这 literally 是一个环形交叉路口。
It's literally a roundabout.
是的。
Yeah.
我们正处在环形交叉路口的中央，但这是一个非同寻常的环形路口，因为它就是特拉法加广场。
We're in the middle of a roundabout, but it's a it's a distinguished roundabout because it's Trafalgar Square.
你可以听到警车驶过。
It's at you can hear the police go by.
太棒了。
It's great.
你正在盖过警笛声大喊。
You're shouting over the siren.
这正是我所认为的，我们正在印证你对伦敦的阴暗猜测。
That's how I like to think we'll Confirming your darker suspicions of London.
没错。
Precisely.
我们现在正站在查理一世的雕像下，这是伦敦最古老的青铜雕像。
We're in we're we're standing beneath the statue of Charles the first, which is London's oldest bronze statue.
是的。
It is.
而且这实际上就是伦敦的中心，对吧？
And is in fact the the center of London, isn't it?
因为这里曾经是埃莉诺十字架的所在地。
Because this is where the Eleanor Cross used to stand.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这座十字架是在1647年被拆除的。
The so the cross was taken down in 1647.
所以，这些十字架是爱德华一世为纪念他的妻子埃莉诺而建立的。
So, these were the crosses put up by Edward the first in memory of his His wife, Eleanor
卡斯蒂利亚的。
of Castile.
而在这个地方，我们如今看到的是1633年竖立的查理一世青铜雕像。
And, on that spot, this spot, we have this bronze statue of Charles the first, which went up in 1633.
也就是说，是在他生前建立的。
So, during his lifetime.
所以，这座雕像并不是纪念已故之人，这与我们今天要讨论的大多数雕像不同，因为我们今天就是要谈这个，对吧？
So, this isn't a statue commemorating someone who's dead, unlike most of the statues that we're gonna be talking about today because that's what we're doing, isn't it?
我们在谈雕像。
We're talking statues.
所以我们才来到这里。
So that's why we've come here.
显然，特拉法加广场有查理一世的雕像，但我们也有纳尔逊的。
So, obviously, Trafalgar Square, got Charles the first, but we've also got Nelson.
我们这里有一堆将军，肯·利文斯通曾经根本不知道他们是谁，还想要把他们拆了。
We've got a load of generals who Ken Livingston famously didn't know who they were and wanted to take them down.
然后我们可以去议会广场，看看那里的一些雕像。
And and then we may go down, look, Parliament Square and look at the statues there as well.
雕像显然是一个非常敏感的话题。
Statues, obviously, a very hot button issue.
所以我觉得这是进行我们第一次现场直播的完美地点。
So I think this is a perfect place to do our first on the spot broadcast.
问题是，汤姆，保留还是取消？
And the question, Tom, keep or keep or cancel?
我觉得我们应该问问：保留还是取消？
I think we should ask keep or cancel.
是的。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
那我们是否应该聚焦在查理一世身上？
So should we focus on on Charles the first?
是的。
Yeah.
因为他是艺术收藏家。
Because Art collector.
换句话说，这个雕像本来就不打算放在公共空间。
As a pop say, I mean, this was not intended to go up in a public space.
它原本是为私人花园准备的。
So this was for a a private garden.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
我之前不知道。
I didn't
我不知道。
know that.
所以他是查理一世的重要支持者之一。
So so it one of Charles the first kind of big big supporters.
然后，显然内战爆发了，查理一世就在不远处被砍了头，实际上就在朝铁桥那边的方向。因此议会下令摧毁这座雕像，但它被藏了起来。
And then, obviously, civil war happened, and Charles the first had his head chopped off just down the road, actually, just down towards iron And so parliament ordered this to be destroyed, but it got it got hidden.
到了1660年王政复辟后，它又被重新立了起来。
And then with the restoration in 1660, it went straight back up.
是的。
Yeah.
然后它被安置在这里，我想是在1675年左右吧？
And it got put in this place, I think, 1675 or something?
对。
Yeah.
它奇怪地俯视着自己遇害的地点。
Looking looking weirdly, looking down at the spots of his own death
是的。
Yes.
这有点奇怪
Which is a sort of strange
而且，当然，往下看就是议会的方向，那里有一座奥利弗·克伦威尔的雕像。
And also, of course, looking down towards parliament where there is a statue of Oliver Cromwell.
是的。
Yeah.
它们面对面站着，真棒，不是吗？
It's great that they're facing each other, isn't it?
确实是。
It is.
而且很明显，我们接下来要讨论的是，某些人的雕像是否应该保留。
And obviously, we're gonna be talking about whether, you know, whether it's right that statues of certain people should be up him.
是的。
Yes.
我一直觉得，在白厅这条伦敦权力中枢的主干道一端立查理一世的雕像，另一端立克伦威尔的雕像，是一种完美的折中。
The I I've always felt that having a statue of Charles the first at one end of Whitehall, the Great Avenue, the artery of power in London, and a statue of Cromwell at the other is kind of the perfect compromise.
这是纪念的完美方式
It's the perfect way to memorialize
这正是我们播客中提到的，所有事物都属于十七世纪，不是吗？
It's the physical of our podcast that said that everything was seventeenth century, isn't it?
我的意思是，确实如此。
I mean, it is.
这就是它的本质。
That's what it is.
确实是。
It is.
来吧，汤姆。
So come on, Tom.
你会把它移除吗？
Would you get rid?
你会保留它吗？
Would you keep?
或者哦，我肯定会保留它。
Or Oh, I'd definitely keep it.
是的。
Yeah.
但你也得保留克伦威尔。
But I but I but you'd have to keep Cromwell as well.
好吧，我们稍后再谈这个。
Well, we'll come to that.
我们会谈到这个，因为这有点更具争议性。
We will come to that because that's a bit more controversial.
但我觉得查理一世也是个很好的起点，因为正如你所说，它真的是这里最古老的雕像。
But I think also, Charles the first is a great one to start with because as you said, it's it's it's the oldest statue here, really.
是的。
Yeah.
而且它把问题聚焦在：雕像为何存在？
And it focuses the question on why do statues exist?
所以，关于我们应该保留哪些雕像的整个争论，你知道的？
So the whole debate around, you know, what statues should we have?
我们到底该不该有雕像？
Should we have statues at all?
雕像矗立在这里并不是理所当然的。
It's not a given that statues stand.
在中世纪和十六世纪，他们并没有这样的雕像。
For the Middle Ages, sixteenth century, they didn't have statues like this.
那么，为什么它们突然出现了呢？
So why did they suddenly appear?
好的。
Okay.
进入十九世纪、二十世纪，为什么突然出现了这么多雕像？
And then going into the nineteenth century, into the twentieth century, why is there a sudden glut?
我认为，要回答这个问题，最好的办法是去看看特拉法加广场的另一座雕像，那是查理的儿子詹姆斯二世的雕像，位于国家美术馆前，安静得多。
And I think that probably the best way to answer that is to go and look at another statue in Trafalgar Square, which is a statue of Charles' son, James the second, which stands in front of the National Gallery and is a good deal less noisy.
那我们去那儿吧。
So let's go there.
好的。
Okay.
所以，汤姆，我们正走近这座雕像，你非常关注它，因为我觉得它很符合你的论点，对吧？
So, Tom, we're approaching this next statue, which is one you're very keen on because I think it's gonna fit your thesis, isn't it?
确实如此，所以我才想带你来这里。
It does, which is why I wanted to you here.
我的意思是，当我走近时，我在想，这到底是什么？
I mean, as I approach, it's like what is it?
罗马人？
A Roman?
嗯，这是詹姆斯二世。
Well, it's so it's James the second.
好的。
Okay.
查理一世的儿子，查理二世的弟弟。
Son of Charles the first, younger brother of Charles the second.
在1688年的光荣革命中声名狼藉地被驱逐。
Famously kicked out in the Glorious Revolution of sixteen eighty eight.
所以这是格里曼·吉本斯在1686年竖立的，就在他被驱逐前两年。
So this is Grinman Gibbons put up in 1686, two years before he got kicked out.
所以他只当了一年的国王。
So he's only been king for a year.
这并不是为了纪念一位伟大的国王，但如你所说，他穿着罗马盔甲。
It's it's it's not a memorial to to to a great king, but he's, as you say, dressed in in Roman armor.
他披着斗篷。
He's got a cloak.
他穿着胸甲。
He's got a curass.
他穿着短筒靴。
He's got the little thigh boots.
是的
Yeah.
它将注意力集中在这种突然盛行的竖立雕像风潮的根源上。
And it it focuses attention on the roots of this sudden mania for putting up statues.
因为直到此时，人们并不会为国王竖立雕像。
Because until this point, you're not putting up statues of kings.
这就是为什么没有爱德华四世或理查三世的雕像的原因，或者
Which is why there aren't statues of Edward the fourth or Richard the third or
据说还有一座更古老的雕像，那就是阿尔弗雷德大帝的雕像，据说是在理查二世统治时期雕刻的，好吧。
There is supposedly so there is supposedly an older statue, which is that of king Alfred, which is said to have been sculpted in the reign of Richard the second Okay.
最初竖立在威斯敏斯特，后来迁至萨瑟克。
Put up in Westminster and then moved to Southwark.
但实际上，很明显它是维多利亚时代的产物。
But actually, it's pretty clear it's Victorian.
明白。
Okay.
我认为在舰队街的圣邓斯坦教堂上有一座伊丽莎白一世的半身肖像。
I think there's a portrait bust of Elizabeth the first on Saint Dunstan's on Fleet Street.
但除此之外，真正开始的地方就在这里。
But aside from that, it's really here that it begins.
查理和詹姆斯。
Charles and James.
是的。
Yeah.
他穿着罗马服饰这一事实表明，这里试图模仿和效仿——
And the fact that he's in Roman dress shows that what's going on here is an attempt to to ape and mimic Yeah.
这是一种
It's a
罗马风格。
Roman styles.
在希腊和罗马，人们会为皇帝竖立雕像，这显而易见，但也会为伟人立像——
And it's it's in Greece and Rome that you put up statues of emperors, obviously, but also great men Yeah.
因为这是纪念他们的最佳方式。
Because it's the best way to memorialize them.
你们没有照片。
You don't have photographs.
你们也没有其他方式来保存他们的记忆。
You don't have other ways of preserving their memory.
所以你们立起了雕像。
So you put the statues up.
为什么中世纪没有雕像？
Why are there no statues in in the Middle Ages?
因为随着罗马帝国的衰落，人们已经不再有这种习惯，而且你也知道我要说什么。
Because they have they've fallen out of habit with the fall of the Roman Empire, but also with the and you will know what I'm about to say.
是基督教。
It's Christianity.
转变为基督教。
Becoming a Christianity.
因此，基督教对偶像崇拜产生了深深的焦虑。
So there there there is Christianity brings a deep anxiety about graven images.
所以你会
So you will
当然会，你显然会
get you will obviously, you
你会看到圣徒的雕像，以及圣经中国王的雕像。
will get statues of saints, and you'll get statues of biblical kings.
在墓碑上，当然会有国王、骑士和雕像的图像。
And on tombs, of course, you get images of kings and of knights and of effigies.
但你不会看到这种独立的雕像。
But you don't get standalone statues like this.
事实上，这正是从文艺复兴时期的意大利传入的。
And and really, this is an importation from the from Renaissance Italy.
但这也意味着，他并非以专制主义著称，也不是欧洲专制主义的仰慕者。
But is it also I mean, he's not famously an absolutist, an admirer of European absolutism.
所以竖立这尊雕像是一个非常强烈的象征，对吧？
So putting up the statue is quite a strong symbol, isn't it?
是的。
Of Yeah.
你知道，我是个罗马皇帝。
You know, I'm I'm I'm a Roman emperor.
对。
I'm Yes.
你知道，我会成为一个绝对君主。
You know, gonna be an absolute.
而且，意思是，铭文是用拉丁文写的，‘Jacobus Secundus Dei Grate’，即蒙神恩典。
And, I mean, the inscription's in Latin, Jacobus Secundus Dei Grate, by the grace of God.
英格兰、苏格兰、法兰西国王。
King of England, Scotland, France.
在这个阶段，他仍然声称对法国拥有主权，如果我没记错的话。
He's still claiming France at this stage, if I like.
还有，他是信仰的捍卫者。
And Fidier defensive Defender of the faith.
尽管他是天主教徒。
Even though he's Catholic.
是的。
Yeah.
那么，所以有
Well So there's
我的意思是，他可以声称自己有正当理由拥有这个头衔，而别人不行，因为这个头衔是亨利八世还是天主教徒时被授予的。
a I mean, he could claim that he could justifiably that and nobody else could because there was a title awarded to Henry VIII when he was a Catholic.
所以，本质上，竖立雕像的传统是一种文化上依赖的做法。
So so essentially, the the tradition of putting up statues is a culturally contingent one
对。
Yeah.
这种传统源于文艺复兴时期及早期现代对罗马遗产的回应。
That is bred of Renaissance and then early modern responses to the Roman heritage.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
我猜也是。
I'll bet.
而且它与基督教对偶像的古老戒备存在张力。
And it exists in tension with the older Christian suspicion of graven images.
我认为这一点一直延续到今天。
And I think that that is something that we see right the way up to the present day.
但是，汤姆，我们正在讨论的是保留还是取消。
But, Tom, here's the thing we're talking about to keep or cancel.
我的意思是，他是个被取消的人。
I mean, he's somebody who was canceled.
他被取消了。
He was canceled.
他被驱逐出这个国家。
He was kicked out of the country.
这座雕像被拆除了。
And this statue got taken down.
是我做的。
I did.
好的。
Okay.
这正是我想问的。
That's what I was gonna ask.
那么，它是什么时候又重新立起来的？
And now so when did it come back up?
你知道吗？
Do you know?
我认为它是根据威廉的命令被拆除的，然后我觉得威廉又说，算了，放回去吧。
I think it got taken down on the orders of William and then I think William gave it said, fine.
把它再立起来。
Put it back up again.
本质上，这是因为这一切都发生在查理一世被处决和君主制被废除的背景下。
Essentially, because, of course, this is in the context of the execution of Charles the first and the abolition of the monarchy.
是的。
Yeah.
所以人们对于废除一位国王感到不安。
So there's a nervousness about canceling a king.
好的。
Okay.
我认为另一点是，在十七世纪，当你竖立国王雕像时，你也在树立君主制的理念。
And I think that's also the other thing is that that in the seventeenth century, when you're putting up statues of of kings, you're also putting up images of the idea of monarchy
对。
Yeah.
以及他所统治的王国的理念。
And of the idea of the kingdom that he's ruling.
所以，这就是雕像底座上所有王国的列表。
So that's the list of all the kingdoms that you get on the base of the statue.
这不仅仅是以詹姆斯为形象，更是英国君主制帝国权力的象征。
This is an image not just of James, but of the imperial power of the British monarchy.
但这里有件事，汤姆。
But here's the thing, Tom.
整个雕像争议中贯穿的一个重要主题是，你在纪念某些人，将他们神圣化，并向公众灌输他们所代表的意义。
A big theme that runs through this whole statue debate is, you know, you're commemorating people, you're enshrining them, you're indoctrinating the public in, you know, in what they represent.
而我们已经站在这里四分钟左右了。
And we've been standing here now for four minutes or something.
而且，相当多的人——虽然这有点不寻常——但有不少路人经过时，都会看着我们，心想：这些怪人拿着麦克风，自言自语地在干嘛？
And, you know, quite a few people, it's quite unusual, but quite a few people who walked past, they've looked at us and thought, who are these freaks and holding microphones and talking to each other?
但没人看那座雕像。
But nobody has looked to that statue.
我的意思是，对大多数人来说，它不过就是一件装饰性的艺术品，不是吗？
I mean, it's just a to most people, it's just a piece of decorative art, isn't it?
是的。
Yeah.
完全正确。
Completely.
这当然就是肯·利文斯通的问题所在，我认为他在2000年时
That's and that that, of course, is the issue for Ken Livingston, who I think in 2000 when
担任伦敦市长。
he was mayor of London.
他想
He wanted to
竖起另外两座雕像。
raise his of of two other statues.
但我们先谈这些，因为我喜欢那些雕像。
But we'll come down to them because I love those statues.
对。
Yes.
但同时，我觉得在谈罗马这个主题时，是的。
But, also, I think while we're on the theme of of Romans Yeah.
而模仿罗马，最显而易见的便是特拉法加广场上那座最明显的罗马式纪念碑——胜利柱，顶端立着纳尔逊像。
And aping Rome, it would be obvious to look at the most most obvious Roman monument in Trafalgar Square, which is the triumphal column, which is surmounted by by Nelson.
是的。
Yes.
因为竖立一根巨大的、形似阳具的柱子来庆祝胜利，这正是典型的罗马做法。
Because the the the idea of erecting a a a massive phallic column to victory is a paradigmatically Roman one.
是的。
Yeah.
关于纳尔逊的争论，我想阿菲·赫希最近提出，纳尔逊像应该被移除。
And the debate over over Nelson so I think Afio Hirsch recently suggested that that Nelson should fall.
这显然是一种古老的争论。
They're obviously kind of, you know, this is an ancient debate.
在罗马，图拉真柱就是为庆祝图拉真战胜达契亚人而建，柱顶原本立着图拉真的雕像。
So this in Rome, you have Trajan's Column, is erected to celebrate Trajan's victories over the Dacians and was surmounted by a statue of Trajan.
那座雕像在中世纪的某个时候消失了，被圣彼得的雕像取代了。
That that statue kind of vanished, came down some point in in the middle ages and was replaced by a statue of Saint Peter.
关于是否应该推倒帝国将军的雕像，并用更符合时代精神的人物取而代之，目前的争论正是如此。
And the the current debate about whether we should pull down the statue, say, of imperial generals and replace them with somebody more in tune with the spirit of the age.
这正是特拉扬和圣彼得雕像所经历过的重复。
It's it's a replication of what happened with Trajan and Saint Peter.
这是一个
It's an
老生常谈了。
old yeah.
所以这是一个古老的问题，这是一个
So it's an old it's an
古老的争论。
old debate.
你是想先拿纳尔逊开刀，还是先处理中间那些雕像？
You want to do Nelson next or do want to do the intervening statues?
我们该怎么做？
What should we do?
我们去看看纳尔逊，然后再看
Let's go and look at Nelson and then look at
他两侧的雕像。
the the ones who flank him.
所以，关于纳尔逊的雕像，我们边走边聊应该没问题。
So, the Nelson one, we can probably carry on talking as we walk towards it.
所以，纳尔逊的这座雕像实际上比我想的要晚得多。
So, the Nelson one, it's much later actually than I thought.
它是十九世纪四十年代的。
So, it's eighteen forties.
它并不是在他去世后立即竖立的。
It's it's so it's not put up in the immediate aftermath of his death.
我认为是公爵
I think the duke of
是惠灵顿公爵支持了一场募资呼吁。
Wellington backed an appeal.
就像很多这类雕像一样，当时发起了一场大规模的公众筹款活动。
So there was one like a lot of these statues, there was a big sort of public subscription.
然后呢，对了，讽刺的地方在于，虽说这座雕像里的他身形伟岸，但现实里纳尔逊本人其实个子很矮。
And and, yeah, the irony is, of course, he's on this statue and he's tearing over, but he also was a very short man.
所以你大可以说，建这么一座巨型雕像，某种程度上就是为了弥补这个小遗憾。
So this is a you could argue it's a sort of massive act of compensation.
因为我记得他身高只有五英尺六。
Because I think he was five foot six.
而且很有意思的是，这个雕像上的他没戴那顶眼罩。
And apparently, he's not wearing his eye patch on the top.
真的吗？
Is he not?
但他的断臂是还原出来的？
But his arm is missing.
是的
Yeah.
但他的手臂缺失了。
But his arm is missing.
没错。
Exactly.
所以，汤姆，我的意思是，大多数听众，尤其是英国听众，可能已经知道，纳尔逊是英国历史上最伟大的人物之一。
So, Tom, I mean, most of our listeners will probably already know that for for British listeners anyway, Nelson is one of the absolute titanic figures.
他是特拉法加海战的英雄。
He's the hero of Trafalgar.
索尼，我小时候一直认为纳尔逊是英国历史上绝对不可撼动的英雄人物。
Sonny, I was brought up as a boy thinking that Nelson was one of the absolutely untouchable heroic figures of British history.
那是特拉法加广场。
Well, it's Trafalgar Square.
因此，这座雕像是在他于特拉法加海战中阵亡后建立的，这场战役从根本上阻止了法国入侵英国，并确立了英国皇家海军长达一个世纪以上的海上霸权。
So it's put up in the aftermath of his death at the Battle of Trafalgar, which essentially ensures that France can't invade Britain and establishes the supremacy of the Royal Navy for, you know, a century and more.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，从这个意义上说，它与查理一世和詹姆斯二世的雕像不同，因为这是一座有意识地纪念胜利的纪念碑。
So it's in that sense, it's different to the statues of Charles first and James the second because this is consciously a monument to victory.
是的。
Yeah.
它是对英国伟大的颂扬。
It's a monument to British greatness.
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
It is.
没错。
Exactly.
没错。
Exactly.
而且，这再次体现了罗马传统的强烈影响。
And again, that's, you know, that that is very, very powerfully in the Roman tradition.
我想，这正是现在让人感到些许不安的原因。
And I guess that that's what now makes people slightly uncomfortable.
但纳尔逊的雕像也不同于我们之前讨论的那两座，你知道，人们会排队在台阶上拍照，对吧？
But then the statue of Nelson is also different from the first two we talked about, and that is, you know, people queue up to have their they they they have their photos taken on the steps, don't they?
我的意思是，也许并不是因为他们热爱纳尔逊。
I mean, maybe not because they love Nelson.
而且沿着
And straggling the
狮子。
lions.
而是因为他们将它视为英国精神的一种象征。
But because they're aware of it as a sort of icon of Britishness.
是的。
Yes.
所以，我认为我说得没错吧，在奥运会开幕式上，当丹尼尔·克雷格和女王乘坐直升机飞过时，他们是从纳尔逊像上方飞过的，但我记不清他具体做过什么了。
So I think am I not right in thinking that at the Olympic opening ceremony when Daniel Craig and the queen fly past in a helicoch, they fly past Nelson, and I can't remember what he did.
他好像抬头看着他们，或者举了举帽子。
He sort of looks up at them or raises his hat
真的吗？
or Does he?
或者朝他们眨了眨眼之类的。
Gives a little wink or something.
基座周围有一些青铜浮雕。
The and the there are kind of bronze images that attach the base of the collar.
战斗场景。
Scenes from the battle.
四场战役的场景。
Scenes from the four battles.
是的。
Yeah.
由熔化的法国大炮铁制成。
Made from melted iron of French cannon.
面向白厅一侧的是特拉法加海战场景，其中一名开枪的水手是一名黑人，我记下了他的名字。
And the one on the the side facing towards Whitehall is a Trafalgar, and it shows one of the people firing a gun is a a black sailor, a man whose name was whoever got I've it written down.
他叫乔治·莱恩，23岁，正在开火射击步枪。
His name is George Ryan, age 23, shooting a musket.
真的吗？
Really?
所以这里确实体现了一定的多元文化色彩。
So it's sort of a there's a bit of a nice multiculturalism there.
嗯。
Well
也许这样能更好地保存它。
well, maybe that'll preserve it.
但当然，纳尔逊现在颇具争议，因为人们对他与奴隶制的关系存在争论。
But, of course, Nelson is now controversial because people argue about him his relationship to slavery.
是的。
Yeah.
有一封信，据称他在信中为奴隶贸易辩护，但如今普遍认为这封信是伪造的。
There's this letter where he's supposedly defending slaving interests, which I think the consensus now seems to be the letter's a forgery.
是的。
Yeah.
这封信是在他去世后，由反废奴主义者伪造的，目的是声称纳尔逊支持他们的事业。
And it's forged after his death by anti abolitionists who wanted to claim Nelson's support for their for their cause.
不过关于这一点，尚无定论。
Though the jury is still slightly out on that.
但没错，如果你想要非常反传统的话，可以说，应该把丘吉尔的雕像拆了，也把纳尔逊的雕像拆了。
But, yes, if want to mean, is one of the two people that if you want to be very iconoclastic, you say, tear Churchill down and turn Nelson down.
至于纳尔逊这件事，你知道，很多人，包括我自己，都对此非常激动，因为纳尔逊被视为英国、英国精神和英国自豪感的象征，
And and and the Nelson thing, you know, lots of people, including me, got very sort of excited about that hot onto the collar because Nelson is seen as synonymous with Britain and Britishness and British pride and
所有这些内容。
all this stuff.
但他也是一个充满魅力、张扬的人物。
He's but he's also he's a a kind of dashing flam flamboyant character.
是的。
Yeah.
所以他和艾玛·汉密尔顿之间发生了各种风流韵事。
So he has all kinds of shenanigans with Emma Hamilton.
纳尔逊深受腹泻之苦。
Suffered very badly from diarrhea, Nelson.
谢谢你，多米尼克，毕竟你本该为英国英雄辩护的。
Thank you, Dominic, for for someone who's supposed to be batting for the British heroes.
我都忘了我站在哪一边了。
I forgot what side I'm on.
抱歉。
Sorry.
是的。
Yeah.
回来
Get back
准时。
on time.
是的。
Yeah.
他真是个非常有魅力的人，老兄。
He's such a he's a very charismatic figure, mate.
他是个非常有魅力的人物，所以
Very charismatic figure, so
他实际上并不完全像丘吉尔，而且他有很多严重的缺点。
He's actually not quite Churchillian, and he had colossal flaws.
但人们因为他的缺点而喜欢他，我觉得。
But people loved him for his flaws, I think.
是的。
Yeah.
同意。
Agreed.
同意。
Agreed.
所以你不会把纳尔逊的雕像移走，是吧？
So you wouldn't take Nelson down, would you?
我的意思是，拜托。
I mean, come on.
我不会移走纳尔逊的雕像，因为我认为，只要法国人还保留着凯旋门，我们就应该有保留纳尔逊柱的权利。
I wouldn't take Nelson down because I think that I think that that for as long as the French have the Arc De Triomphe Yeah.
我们得
We've got to
有保留纳尔逊柱的权利。
have the right to have Nelson's column.
如果他们拆了凯旋门，我们或许会考虑
And they take Arc De Triomphe down, we'll maybe think about
我还要说，这其实有点让人卸下防备。
I'll also say it's I mean, it's kind of Disarming.
我认为，如果希特勒占领了英国，他计划把纳尔逊纪念柱运到柏林，作为一种胜利的图腾。
I I think Hitler was planning to take if he occupied Britain, he was planning to take Nelson's column to Berlin as a kind of victory totem.
哦，那可太糟糕了。
Oh, that would have been awful.
还有那些狮子，从某种意义上说，它们是英国性的象征，对吧？
And the lions So in a way The lions are symbols of Britishness, aren't they, I suppose?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
但它是一种
But it's a it's a
它是一种象征，你知道的，象征着一场拯救了英国的战役。
it's a symbol of, you know, of a battle that saved Britain from Yeah.
我认为那将是一场相当不愉快的占领。
What I think would have been a fairly unpleasant occupation.
高卢式的占领。
Gallic occupation.
没人会想要那样。
No one would want that.
没人会想要那样。
No one would want that.
所以我支持保留他。
So I'm in favor of keeping him.
让我们保留他。
Let's keep him.
非常好。
Very good.
是的。
Yeah.
听到这个我很高兴。
I'm glad to hear that.
好的，汤姆。
Alright, Tom.
那么接下来呢？
So what next?
你接下来有什么？
What do you got next?
众所周知，特拉法加广场有四个基座。
So so right famously, Trafalgar Square has four plinths.
其中一个基座上立着一位国王，比如查理一世、詹姆斯二世，还有乔治四世，他几乎被公认为我们最糟糕的国王之一。
One of them is occupied by a king, so like Charles the the first, like James the second, and that is George the fourth, who is almost universally recognized for being one of the our worst kings.
我有一些关于乔治四世的有趣事实，特别适合这个播客。
I've got some good facts about George the fourth, especially for this podcast.
你想说说吗？
Do you wanna give them?
我有。
I do.
他非常快。
He was very fast.
他早餐吃了什么？
And what he had for breakfast?
很多。
A lot.
公爵
The duke
威灵顿公爵在1830年写道，他早餐吃了一只鸽子和牛肉派，三分之二瓶莫泽尔酒，一杯干香槟，两杯波特酒，和一杯白兰地，之后还服用了大量鸦片酊。
of Wellington wrote that in 1830, had for breakfast a pigeon and beefsteak pie, three parts of a bottle of mozel, a glass of dry champagne, two glasses of port, and a glass of brandy, followed by a large dose of laudanum.
我觉得，你不觉得这种早餐值得在我们的
I think don't you think that's the kind of breakfast that needs to be memorialized in our
是的。
Yeah.
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我的意思是，但另一点是他非常胖，体重有二十英石。
I mean, I but the other thing is he was so fat, weighed twenty stone.
我的意思是，骑在那匹马上的那个人不可能有二十英石重。
I mean, hit that man on that horse is not twenty stone.
他最后甚至以为自己在滑铁卢战役中率领了冲锋之类的。
And he ended up thinking that he'd led the charge at Waterloo or something.
他觉得他完全疯了，在
Think he'd gone completely mad at the
结束时
end of
但大卫·威尔基说他太胖了，看起来就像一个被塞进外衣里的大香肠。
But it was so so David Wilkie said he was so he was so obese, he looked like, quote, a great sausage stuffed into the covering.
嗯，我
Well, I
觉得他看起来不像那样，对吧？
think He doesn't look like that, does he?
所以，我的意思是，一个完全无用的国王。
So, I mean, a completely worthless king.
是的。
Yeah.
其实，你知道吗？
Actually, know what?
他很棒。
He's great.
我们已经出了三个相当无用的国王。
It's that we've got we've done three pretty worthless kings.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，他们真的是毫无用处的国王。
They're I mean, really useless kings.
我的意思是，这就是为什么我觉得两位
I mean, that's why I think Two
他们中有一个被处决了。
of them one of them got executed.
一个被流放，另一个则变得像香肠肉一样。
One of them got driven into exile, and one of them ended up looking like a sausage meat.
所以，我想可能只有在英国，我不知道，我们会把三个如此无能的国王纪念在我们最著名的广场上。
So so I think only maybe only in Britain, I don't know, would we have Three such worthless kings memorialized in our sort of most famous square.
所以，是的，乔治四世。
So, yeah, George the fourth.
制作人说，告诉所有人他的生卒年份，我觉得我们应该这么做。
The producer is saying, tell everybody his dates, and I think we should.
说多米尼克。
Say Dominic.
多米尼克。
Dominic.
所以他生活在十九世纪初，对吧？
So he's early nineteenth century, isn't he?
他是摄政王。
He's the regent.
当乔治三世发疯时，他是摄政王。
He's the regent for George the third when he gets mad.
他什么时候去世的？
When does he die?
他死于1820年左右。
He dies in 1820 like that.
大概是这样。
It's something like
我觉得差不多是这样。
I think Something like that.
我们请过泰德·瓦兰斯来谈《大宪章》，他连约翰王的年代都不知道。
Ted Valance, we had on to talk about Magna Carta, he didn't know King John's date.
所以我觉得我不记得乔治四世的年代也情有可原。
So I think I can be excused not knowing George the Right.
所以，乔治四世就这样以令人印象深刻的学识和修养结束了。
So that's George the fourth done with with impressive scholarship and learning.
我的意思是，我觉得人们从这个播客中学到了很多东西。
I mean, I think people are getting a lot from this podcast.
然后我们还有两位将军会来到你面前，接着就是著名的第四座空置的雕像。
And then we've got we've got two generals that will come to you, and then we've got the fourth blinch, which is famously has been kept empty.
好的。
Okay.
所以两位将军中，肯·利文斯通当伦敦市长时说，把它们拆了吧。
So the two generals, Ken Livingston, when he was mayor of London, said, let's tear them down.
没人知道他们是谁。
No one knows who they are.
他们已经不相关了。
They're not relevant.
那曾经是
That was
他的说法。
his statement.
他想把它们拆掉，并不是因为它们是帝国主义者，而是因为他不知道他们是谁
He he wanted to bring them down not because they were imperialists, but because he didn't know who
他们是谁？
Who they were?
是的。
Yeah.
所以他说，哦，他们只是些可憎的老将军。
They were so he said, oh, they're just ghastly old generals.
所以这个，查尔斯，我几乎想问制作人是否了解这件事。
So this one, Charles I'm James almost tempted to ask the producer if he knows anything about it.
他正在摇头。
He's shaking his head.
杰克，你知道这个人是谁吗？
Jack, do know who the person's nose?
詹姆斯·内皮尔是谁？
James Napier was?
不是。
No.
他有个
He's got a
他的鼻子很有威灵顿风格，非常好。
really good he's got a Wellington style nose.
确实如此。
He does.
他看起来非常威严。
He looks very impressive.
他有一把漂亮的剑。
He's got a nice sword.
一双很棒的靴子。
Great boot.
所以他就是十九世纪四十年代征服了如今巴基斯坦地区信德省的那个人。
So he is the man who conquered Sindh in what's Pakistan in the eighteen forties.
我犯了罪，用拉丁语说是Pekkaavi，据说他发过这条消息，但他其实没发，因为这是《Punch》杂志的一个笑话。
I have sinned, which in Latin is Pekkaavi, which he's supposed to have sent, but he didn't because it was a joke in punch.
是的。
Yeah.
但他们把这条消息发回家，实在太无礼了。
But it's a very rude that they sent this message home.
对。
Yes.
Pekkaavi，我犯了罪，但他并没有发。
Pekkaavi, I have sinned, But he didn't.
这太让人失望了。
It's so disappointing.
但他也是半岛战争中的一位战争英雄，我想。
But he was also he was a war hero in Peninsula War, I think.
是的。
Yeah.
在那之前。
Before that.
没错。
That's right.
但他并没有否认征服信德的事实，是的。
But he was he did not deny that the conquest of Sinned yeah.
所以这是由公众集资建造的。
So it's erected by public subscription.
其中最多的贡献者是普通士兵。
The most numerous contributors being private soldiers.
这难道不感人吗？
Isn't that touching?
非常感人。
Very touching.
但他并没有否认，他们征服信德是一桩卑劣的勾当。
But, he didn't deny that he they had the conquest of Sind had been a A rascally business.
一桩卑劣的勾当。
A rascally business.
他说，我们征服印度的目的，我们所有暴行的目的。
He said, our objects in conquering India, the object of all our cruelties.
你知道那是什么吗？
You know what it was?
钱。
Money.
钱。
Money.
他说，钱才是目的。
Money is what he says.
是的。
Yeah.
这一切都是从血泊中捡出来、擦干净，然后放进凶手口袋里的。
Every shitting of this has been picked out of blood, wiped, and put into the murderer's pocket.
我必将为这罪行受苦，正如天上确有上帝一样。
And I shall yet suffer for the crime as sure as there is a God in heaven.
是的。
Yes.
而且他基本上也预言了
And he he also he kind of basically foretold the
叛乱。
The rebellion.
音乐。
The music.
1857年的叛乱。
Rebellion in 1857.
对。
Yeah.
而且担心英国军官和印度军官之间没有很好地融合。
And and worried that British officers and Indian officers weren't kind of mixing.
是的。
Yeah.
所以某种程度上，也就是说，维多利亚时代的将军如果觉醒了，他就是一个觉醒的维多利亚时代将军。
So in a way, I mean, to the degree that to the degree that Victorian general's awoke, he's a woke Victorian general.
你会这么说吗？
Would you say?
我嗯，
I Well,
他可以说是两全其美，不是吗？
he sort of has his cake and eats it, doesn't he?
我的意思是，他征服了它，
I mean He conquers it,
但却说这是犯罪。
but says it's crime.
人人都拿走所有钱，然后说，哦，我其实是个很善良的人。
Everybody and takes all the money, and then says, oh, I'm actually a very kind person.
我对此感到非常难过。
I feel really bad about it.
但这不正是英国的普遍做法吗？
But isn't that Britain generally?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我的意思是，
I mean I mean,
这正是我们一贯的做法。
that's us generally.
所以你会不会
So would would you
取消他或者
cancel him or
嗯，我不会取消他。
Well, I wouldn't cancel him.
我的意思是，我不会取消任何人。
I mean, I wouldn't cancel anybody.
嗯，等以后我们可能会取消某个人。
Well, I might cancel someone when we get later on.
对吧？
Right?
我手里还留着几个可能要取消的人，就为了惹恼听众。
I've got a few up my sleeve I might cancel just to annoy the listeners.
我都不敢想。
I I dread to think.
你会留下他吗？
Would you keep him?
你会吗？我的意思是，你比我更觉醒，所以也许你会
Would you I mean, you're you're more woke than I am, so maybe you would
没那么觉醒。
Not massively woke.
你想不想看一台起重机把他吊下来？
I Would you like to see Well a crane pulling him down
真相是，真相是
The truth is the truth is
欢呼的人群。
cheering mob.
真相
The truth
是，我其实并不在意。
is I I don't really care.
我对这件事没什么强烈的看法。
I don't feel strongly about it one way or the other.
我本人本质上相当保守，是的。
I'm I'm in I'm inherently quite conservative Yeah.
我不喜欢重新粉刷我们的客厅。
In that I don't like I don't like repainting our sitting room.
而我妻子总是不停地重新粉刷客厅。
Whereas my wife is always repainting the sitting room.
这正是。
That's exactly
你该用的比喻。
the analogy that you should be
所以每次她做完，我都觉得，是的，真棒。
So whenever she does it, I always think, yeah, that's brilliant.
值得费这番功夫。
It's worth the hassle.
对。
Right.
但如果由我来决定，我根本不会做。
But left to me, wouldn't do it.
所以，如果由我决定，我会去做。
So think so left to me, I would do it.
但如果他们，你知道，如果他们提出某种惊人的新方案，我相信我会很高兴。
But but if they if they want, you know, if if they came up with some amazing new scheme, I'm sure I'd be happy.
然而，话虽如此，还有两点反对意见。
However, having said that, two two things against that.
第一，这是由公众捐款建造的。
One is this thing, it's erected by public subscription.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我认为，如果士兵们……
So I do kind of think that if Soldiers.
如果某物是通过公众捐款建造的，某种程度上，你确实有责任去尊重它。
If something's been erected by public subscription, in a way, you kind of have a a duty to honor that.
我也觉得，他，我的意思是，它就像一座建筑。
I also think that he I I mean, he it's like a building.
它让你想起某种特定的历史。
It's it's a it it reminds you of a particular I I history.
而且，我对我们的能力是否能用更好的东西取代它也没有信心。
And, also, I'm not confident in our ability to replace it with something better.
是的。
Yeah.
之所以这样，是因为我看了一下第四基座，它长期空置，现在却公开募捐，结果立了个像融化的冰淇淋、一只苍蝇和一颗樱桃之类的东西。
And and the reason for that is that I look at the fourth plinth, which has been kept empty for long and now is put up for public subscription and there's a a kind of melting ice cream and a a fly and a cherry and things.
这并不怎么样。
It's not great,
是吧？
is it?
而且，我的意思是，当初提出要立一些前卫作品的初衷，确实是有突破性的。
And, well, I mean, it would it the idea of putting up something kind of edgy was, you know, I mean, it was edgy the first time.
是的。
Yeah.
它就是不停地循环往复。
It it we it it just goes round and round.
所以现在它变得非常传统。
And so now it's very conventional.
因此，从某种意义上说，你所能做的最前卫的事情，或许是竖立一尊雕像
So in a way, the the the edgiest thing that you could do would perhaps be to put up a statue
另一位将军。
Another general.
将军。
General
或者海军上将之类的人物。
or an admiral or something.
是的。
Yeah.
那将是一个大胆的表态。
That would be a brave statement.
所以我觉得我们应该休息一下。
So I think we should take a break.
好的。
Yes.
然后我们边走边继续讨论这个问题，去
And then let's return to this issue as we walk to the
其他的，好吧。
other Okay.
维多利亚时代的将军。
Victorian general.
好的。
Okay.
行吧。
Alright.
休息结束后见。
See you after the break.
本集由Folio Society赞助播出，这里是读书俱乐部的Tabby和Dominic，来自Goalhanger的最新节目。
This episode is brought to you by the Folio Society, and it's Tabby and Dominic here from the book club, Goalhanger's latest show.
现在，Tabby，你知道，有些书你只读一次，但还有一些书你特别愿意反复阅读。
Now, Tabby, as you know, there are some books that you read once, but there are others you especially return to again and again.
而这类书，它们确实值得长久保存，对吧？
And those second kind of books, they really deserve to last, don't they?
这正是Folio Society所做的。
That's what the Folio Society does.
他们是一家总部位于伦敦的独立员工所有出版社。
They are an independent employee owned publisher based in London.
每一本书都配有特别委托创作的精美插图，以及特别撰写的导读，帮助读者理解作品的历史背景。
Every book is produced with specially commissioned beautiful artwork and specially commissioned introduction that puts the story in its context.
Folio Society出版我们热爱的书籍，从勃朗特到狄更斯，从玛格丽特·阿特伍德到汤姆·霍兰德。
Folio Society publishes the books we love, from Bronte to Dickens, from Margaret Atwood to Tom Holland.
这些书籍本身就能让人感受到艺术品的质感。
The books can feel like works of art in their own right.
它们以文本为核心，围绕那些经久不衰的故事，打造经久不衰的书籍。
They're built around the text, the stories that last in books that are made to last.
如果一个故事重要，就该好好保存它。
If a story matters, keep it properly.
前往 foliosociety.com 的书友会了解更多。
Find it at foliosociety.com the book club.
那就是 foliosociety.com 的书友会。
That's foliosociety.com the book club.
欢迎回到《余下的历史》。
Welcome back to the rest is history.
我们今天在聊雕像。
We are talking statues.
我们此刻在特拉法加广场，继续探讨肯·利文斯通二十年前的第二个目标。
We're here in Trafalgar Square, and we have moved on to Ken Livingston's second target, as it was 20 ago.
亨利·哈夫洛克爵士，少将。
Major General Sir Henry Havelock.
KCB。
KCB.
KCB，以及他在1857年印度战役中的英勇战友们。
KCB, and his brave and his brave companions in arms during the campaign in India 1857.
所以，这正是你之前提到的那场叛乱，是的。
So, this is during the rebellion that you were talking about Yeah.
过去被称为印度兵变。
Which used to be called the Indian Mutiny.
哈维洛克有一段精彩的讲话：士兵们，你们的辛劳、补给、苦难与英勇，将不会被一个感恩的国家遗忘。
And there's a nice quote from Havelock, soldiers, your labors, your provisions, your sufferings, and your valor will not be forgotten by a grateful country.
同样，这是由公众集资建造的。
And again, erected by public subscription.
所以，汤姆，你可以告诉我，我们所站的这个地方，就是维多利亚时代英国的缩影。
So, again, you know, you could to me, Tom, this spot that we're on is a piece of Victorian Britain.
通过亲临此处，你能感受到那个时代的气质，而如果这座雕像被移走，你就无法体会到这种感觉了。
We're, you know, this is you you get a sense by being here, which you wouldn't get if it were removed, of the sensibility of the age?
你确实如此。
You do.
哈维尔洛克是一个道德严肃的人。
And Havelock was a morally serious figure.
他是一名浸信会教徒，让所有士兵参加圣经课程，并在印度战役中英勇作战。
So he was a a Baptist who made all his soldiers do bible classes and performed heroically in the campaign in India.
我想他最终死在了勒克瑙。
I think ended up dying in Lucknow.
他死于痢疾。
He died of dysentery.
死于痢疾。
Died of dysentery.
所以，你确实如此。
So again, you're Yeah.
回到历史中的恶魔问题。
Returning to demon in history.
流动的
The flow of
是的。
Yeah.
流动的。
The flow of.
一个鸡崽的流动。
The flow of a chicky.
这是一个
Which is a
但是，汤姆，显然，现在被称为叛乱的印度兵变本身也极具争议。
But, Tom, obviously, now the Indian mutiny, as it was once called the rebellion, is now itself very controversial.
对吧？
Right?
所以这就是张力。
So this is the tension.
所以正如你所说，这是经过修正的公众订阅。
So it's as you say, rectified public subscription.
这在某种程度上确实是一种快速的、你知道的，它相当于新闻档案。
It absolutely this is in a way a kind of a quick you know, it's it's the equivalent of news archive.
这是来自十九世纪的新闻影像。
It's news footage from the from the nineteenth century.
我们没有任何与之可比的东西。
We we don't have anything comparable to that.
所以如果你想感受维多利亚时代中期的氛围，这里就是个好去处。
So if you want to have a feeling of that of what it was like in the middle of of the the Victorian period, this is a place to come.
确实如此。
Absolutely.
是的。
Yeah.
我的制片人曾对我说，这并不相关。
I mean, our producer was saying to me, it's not relevant.
但我的意思是，你对任何历史文物、历史建筑都提出了这样的观点，我认为它们在垂直层面上是相关的。
But, I mean, you've made that case about any historic artifact, I I would argue, historic building that they're not, in a vertical, is relevant.
我的意思是，显然它们不相关，但对我来说，这正是它们的价值所在。
I mean, clearly, not relevant, but that's to me the what's valuable about it.
这里有一个
There is a
关于保留它们，有两个相反的观点。
so there are two counter arguments to to to keeping it.
一个是，我们以前曾把特拉法加广场的雕像移走。
One is that we have taken the statues down from Trafalgar Square before.
你知道十九世纪在这里、但后来被移除的是谁吗？
So you know who who was here in the nineteenth century but got removed?
是爱德华·詹纳。
It's Edward is Edward Jenner.
我们保留了将军们的雕像，但却移除了那位
So we've kept the we've kept the generals, but we've removed the guy who
推动了疫苗接种。
pushed for vaccinations.
那他为什么被移除了？
So Why was he taken down?
我认为他在十九世纪末被移除了。
I think he was taken down in the late nineteenth century.
对。
Right.
我实际上非常支持用别人替换哈维尔洛克爵士。
So I'd actually be all in favor of replacing sir Henry Havelock.
但把亨利搬走，我觉得
But she moving Henry I think
我觉得詹纳被移到了四便士硬币上。
I think Jenna got moved to fourth pence.
那四便士呢？
What about the fourth Yeah.
嗯，我认为
Well well, I would I think
把詹娜重新请回来会很好，尤其是经历了过去这一年，把她重新安置在特拉法加广场。
that it would be nice to bring Jenna back, particularly after the past year, and put him back in in Trafalgar Square.
我支持这个做法。
I'll be in favor of that.
另一个问题是，当这个雕像被竖立时，英国其实并没有多少印度人。
And the other issue is that when this got put up, there were there were no people really from India in Britain.
是的。
Yep.
所以这在十九世纪中期是一种‘我们’和‘他们’的对立局面。
So this was us and them situation in the mid nineteenth century.
但现在情况已经不同了。
That's that's not the case.
如果有印度裔的伦敦人、英国人路过这里，感到被冒犯，那我觉得就没必要保留他了。
And if there are are people of Indian descent who are who are Londoners, who are British, who are walking past, who find this upsetting, then I don't think it's worth keeping him.
但当你谈到议会广场时，你就会对克伦威尔和英国所有的爱尔兰人提出同样的论点。
But when you get down to when you get down to Parliament Square, you're gonna be making that same argument to that Cromwell and all the Irish people in Britain.
好吧，我们稍后再谈这个。
Well, we'll come to that.
这正是十九世纪人们所提出的观点。
Which is what people made in the nineteenth century.
我们会谈到这一点的。
We'll we'll we'll come to that.
但我觉得这并不是我该说的。
But I think that it's I think I I mean, I think it's not for it's not for me to say.
再说一遍，我其实并不在意。
I again, I I don't really care.
如果你要移除他，那确实不该由你来决定。
Well, if you're gonna take him down, it's definitely not for you to say.
我的意思是，我们至少在这点上可以达成共识。
I mean, I think we can agree about that.
我会把他撤下来，换成詹娜。
Well, I would take him down and replace him with Jenna.
好的。
Okay.
那会是我的选择。
Would be mine.
所以我要取消他。
So I'm gonna cancel him.
但你并没有这么做。
Well But you're you're not.
好的。
Okay.
我把詹娜放在了第四个基座上。
I put I put Jenna on the fourth plinth.
我受够了第四个基座上的现代艺术。
I'm sick of the modern art on the fourth plinth.
我对此感到厌倦了。
I'm bored of it.
我受够了这些现代艺术。
I I I'm sick of the modern art.
这既不聪明，也不成熟。
It's not it's it's not clever, and it's not grown up.
是的。
Yeah.
现在，我们走到这边来看看这座有趣的雕像，我
Now, let's walk over to there's an interesting statue here over this side, which I
可能可以，好吧。
might Can okay.
所以这是一个有争议的，是的。
So a controversial Yeah.
我认为谁应该被放在第四基座上。
Who I think should go on the fourth plinth.
伊丽莎白二世的骑马雕像。
An equestrian statue of Elizabeth the second.
哦，他真是个君主主义者。
Oh, he's such a monarchist.
不。
No.
你希望女王会听吗？
Are you hoping for does the queen listen?
你希望？不。
Are you hoping for No.
认可？
Recognition?
不。
No.
但我认为这与广场的传统是一致的。
But I think that it would be in tune with the traditions of the square.
好的。
Okay.
那关于菲利普亲王呢？
Because this is What about prince Philip?
不。
No.
因为他
Because he's
不是国王。
not king.
当然要弥补他在世界杯上的遗憾。
Make up for his disappointments in the World Cup of course.
或者也许。
Or maybe.
也许。
Maybe.
也许吧。
Maybe.
我觉得我觉得是的。
I think I think it's Yeah.
这是汤姆·霍兰德爵士。
It's it's Sir Tom Holland here.
这是为骑马雕像准备的。
It's meant for the equestrian statue.
我们来放一个，我们来放一个，我们来放一个单杯。
Let let's put a let's put a let's put a monocup.
汤姆·霍兰德爵士。
Sir Tom Holland.
这就叫。
That's what called.
装饰以
Decorated for
但我只是这么说而已。
But I'm only I'm only saying that.
皇家播客服务。
Services of royal podcasting.
我说这个是为了标新立异。
I'm saying that to be edgy.
这很标新立异吗？
Is that edgy?
是的。
Yes.
这是你能说的最标新立异的话了。
It's the edgiest thing you can say.
而且它确实会是。
And it would be Yeah.
它会是第一个。
It would be the first one.
没错。
Exactly.
要是我比你抢先说出来，那它就是第一个说这话的了。
It would be the first one when I beat you to it.
我们这儿有三辆公交车经过的时候，都有人在钻东西。
So we've got three buses here where there's someone doing some drilling.
所以我们可能不该聊太久
So we probably shouldn't go too
所以这些都是上将。
So these are admirals.
这就是我们的海军上将们。
There's our admirals.
这些都是世界大战时期的海军上将。
These are world war admirals.
这里面有一战时期的杰利科和贝蒂，他俩当年本来就互相看不顺眼，还有二战时期的坎宁安上将。
So Jellico and Beatty who actually hated each other from World War one, and then admiral Cunningham from World War two.
乔乔，跟你说个关于坎宁安将军胸像的冷知识。
Jo Jo, fact about general Cunningham's bust.
他这个胸像……
He is he
是那个被大家叫做“玛丽”的将军吗？
the one who's called Mary?
我之前都不知道这件事，但这个知识点挺棒的。
I didn't know that, but that's very good fact.
所以他也有一座半身雕像。
And so he had a bust as well.
他当时
He was
名字叫玛丽，也有一座半身雕像。
called Mary and had a bust.
对。
Yeah.
所以，我们 definitely 应该把他留在这儿。
So Well, we should definitely keep him here.
在坎宁安海军上将的胸像中，有一个空的健力士啤酒瓶，是雕塑家喝完后用作胸像中心装饰的。
In this bust of Admiral Cunningham, there is an empty bottle of Guinness drunk by the sculptor and used as a sort of centerpiece of the the bust.
显然，没有人会取消他们。
Now obviously nobody would cancel them presumably.
我的意思是，他们帮助赢得了世界大战， surely。
I mean they they helped to win the world wars, surely.
你不会把他们扔掉吧，汤姆？
You wouldn't get rid of them, would you, Tom?
不会。
No.
我会留下他们。
I'll keep them.
实际上，现在有个人在钻孔，所以我们不能再多说他们了，因为我们不想让钻孔声盖过你那悦耳的嗓音。
And actually, there's a man drilling, so we can't say any more about them because we don't want the drilling to over overpay your dulcet tones.
而且，有个叫玛丽的人也不错。
So and and also it's nice to have someone called Mary.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这就是你的女性代表。
So there's your there's your female
对。
Yep.
广场的组成部分。
Components of the square.
好的。
Okay.
所以我们现在要返回国家美术馆，去看看一个人，我猜多米尼克，你认为他确实应该被取消荣誉。
So we are now heading back up to the National Gallery, and we're going to look at someone who I suspect, Dominic, you do think should be cancelled.
当然。
Definitely.
当然。
Definitely.
汤姆，你知道的，我非常反对奴隶制，同时也非常重视人们缴税。
There's there's two things I really as you know, Tom, I'm very passionate anti slavery person, and also I'm very passionate about people paying their taxes.
是的。
Yes.
所以任何逃税的人。
So any sort of tax dodger.
逃税的奴隶主。
Tax tax dodging slave owner.
对。
Right.
我认为，你绝对觉得他根本不该在这里。
I think well, you think absolutely not belong here.
尤其是如果他还穿着意大利法西斯的象征，那就太糟糕了。
And especially if they dress up with a symbol of Italian fascism, which would be awful.
所以这是一个拥有奴隶、逃税并带有法西斯符号的人。
And here's so so a slave owning, tax dodging person with a symbol of fascism.
是的。
Yeah.
而我们就站在这里，这是汤姆。
And here we are in front of that's Tom.
这是谁？
Who's this?
这是乔治·华盛顿。
It's George Washington.
没错。
It is.
由弗吉尼亚州于1921年赠予大不列颠及爱尔兰人民。
Presented to the people of Great Britain and Ireland by the Commonwealth of Virginia in 1921.
所以这里是乔治·华盛顿。
So here's George Washington.
所以这明显是第一次世界大战后的一份礼物，我认为。
So this is clearly a gift, I think, post World War one.
我们在第一次世界大战中并肩作战。
And we fought together in World War one.
弗吉尼亚州赠送了这尊原作的复制品，原作是华盛顿最著名的雕像之一，我认为它矗立在弗吉尼亚州议会大厦。
Commonwealth of Virginia has given this copy of the original, which is one of the most famous statues of Washington, which I think stands in the Virginia State House.
这是英美友谊的一个美好象征。
It's a nice symbol of Anglo American amity.
你会保留还是移除呢？
Would you keep or or get rid?
在美国，华盛顿的雕像正在被移除。
So Washington's coming down in America.
这才是关键。
That's the thing.
很多美国人正在移除华盛顿的雕像。
A lot of Americans are getting rid of Washington.
这个故事不是说它位于美国领土上吗？
Isn't isn't the story that it's it's American soil?
据称，他再也不会踏上伦敦的土地了。
Apparently, said he would never set foot again on the soil of London.
真的吗？
Is that right?
是的。
Yeah.
差不多是这样。
Something like that.
所以，确实有一种说法认为他实际上位于美国领土上。
So, yes, there's a claim that he's actually on American soil.
再说一遍，我对此没有强烈感受。
Again, I have no strong feelings.
跟我说说那些杆子吧。
Tell me about the the rods.
是权杖，是那个权杖。
It's I The the the fasces.
权杖。
The fasces.
那些是执法吏所携带的符号，执法吏是罗马官员的保镖，后来墨索里尼在差不多同一时期捐赠这座雕像时，也将其用作自己运动的象征。
So those are the the symbols born by the lictors who are the the bodyguards of the Roman magistrates, which then got used by by Mussolini as the symbol of his movement at much the same time as as this statue was donated.
但汤姆，这很棒的地方在于，它完成了与罗马的关联闭环，不是吗？
But this what's nice about this though, Tom, is it completes the loop, doesn't it, with the the Roman Yeah.
查理和詹姆斯的象征意义。
Connotations of Charles and James.
是的。
Yes.
而且它也提醒我们，乔治·华盛顿实际上出生时是一名英国臣民。
And it and and it's and it's a reminder of the actually, of the fact that George Washington was was born a a British subject.
是的。
Yes.
所以某种程度上，你知道，它确实算得上是大英帝国的象征，我想。
So in a way, you know, does rank as a a great Britain, I guess.
我的意思是，我不会真的把他移走，因为让我们保留他显得我们很大度。
I I mean, I wouldn't really get rid of him because think it's magnanimous of us to have him.
你不这么认为吗？
Don't you?
我觉得是的。
I think it is.
是的。
Yes.
确实是。
It is.
这确实如此。
It's yeah.
这是我们能够坦然接受失败的致敬。
A tribute to our sporting ability to accept defeat.
是的。
Yeah.
体育赞助很好。
Sports good good sponsorship.
是的。
Yeah.
除了你提到的那位女王雕像，我们还没有其他女性的雕像。
We haven't had any women other than your references to your your putative statue of the queen.
我称之为你的骑士雕像。
Your knighthood statue as I as I call it.
所以我认为，转个角就有一座非常出色的女性雕像，但我想，任何头脑正常的人都不会希望保留它。
So I think if we go around the corner, there's a very good statue of a woman and one that I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to.
不过话说回来，《卫报》的经济学家加里·杨写了一篇充满激情的长文，主张应该保持一致，把所有雕像都拆掉。
Well, although, having said that, economists in the Guardian, Gary Young, wrote a very passionately argued long essay arguing that all statues you should be consistent, and you should get rid of all statues.
你对这个观点怎么看？
What did you make of that?
我觉得那是一篇精彩的文章，他认为所有的雕像都该被拆除。
I thought it was a brilliant essay, and I thought his argument that every statue should be brought down.
他列出了他不认同的人，又列出了他认同的人，并说他们都该被移除。
So he listed people he didn't approve of, and then he listed people he did approve of, and he said that they should all come down.
是的。
Yeah.
他只是不相信
He just didn't believe
雕像，也不相信用石头来纪念人物，认为这是一种压迫性的提醒，
in statues and in in memorializing people in stone as a sort of oppressive, you know, reminder of
历史。
history.
我的意思是，他担心偶像崇拜，这些雕像威胁到了人们的道德健康。
I mean, he it was it was an anxiety about graven images serving the the graven images threatened the moral health of the people.
对。
Yeah.
这是一个非常古老的主题。
That's a very old theme.
送给你的一份礼物。
A gift to you.
而且是
And a
送给你的一份礼物。
gift to you.
当你看到那个时，你一定很高兴吧
You must've been delighted when you
看到了吗。
saw that.
我太兴奋了，因为这本质上就是新教主义的重现。
I'm so excited because, essentially, it's it's it's Protestantism redux.
这是宗教改革最激情、最绝对的表现。
It's it's the reformation at its most passionate and absolutest.
我觉得，它有一个巨大的优势，那就是前后一致且极为坦诚。
And I I thought, you know, it it had the massive benefit of being consistent and brutally honest.
但正如
But as
人们指出，雕像并非理所当然，城市完全有可能没有雕像。
people And it did recognize the fact that statues not a given, that it's perfectly possible to have cities without statues.
但托马斯，人们说，你要说服斯托克城球迷移除斯坦利·马修斯的雕像，这可不容易。
But, Thomas, people said, you know, you're gonna have a hard job persuading, you know, Stoke City supporters to get rid of the statue of Stanley Matthews.
或者我的球队狼队，他们有斯坦·卡利斯、比利·赖特和杰克·海伍德爵士的雕像，这些对狼队球迷来说意义重大，它们象征着——
Or my team, Wolves, who have statues of Stan Cullis, Billy Wright, and Sir Jack Haywood, which mean a lot to I mean, to Wolves fans, they're a symbol of a
这是一种偶像崇拜。
They're idolatry.
但我们并不是在崇拜它们。
But we're not worshiping them.
是的。
Yeah.
其实某种程度上你们就是在崇拜。
You kind of kind of are.
另外还有一点，你也知道，所有和雕像有关的争论里，总有一种说法是，这些人不过是所处时代的产物。
Well also and also the fact that that anyone you know, the whole argument about statues is, well, they were people of their time.
对。
Yeah.
所以哪怕是斯坦利·马修斯，他对性别关系之类的议题的看法，大概率也不是完全公正完善的，或者说
So even Stanley Matthews probably had not entirely constructed views about gender relations or
把所有人都记录下来。
recording everybody.
诸如此类的吧。
Or whatever.
所以我的意思是
So I mean
你总能找到
You'll always be able to find
原因。
the reason.
我的意思是，这可能是加里·杨的焦虑，即按定义，过去的所有人都会是错的。
I mean, this is probably Gary Young's anxiety that by definition, everybody who, in the past, will be will be wrong.
对吧？
Right?
但这就是为什么这本质上是神学的，因为他本质上在说所有人都是堕落的，是的。
But that's why it's fundamentally theological because essentially he's saying that all human beings are fallen Yeah.
因此，你不应该把他们当作偶像。
And therefore, you shouldn't make idols of them.
如果我们移除所有雕像，这将使我们在西方世界中独一无二，因为我们没有雕像。
That would make us unique, of course, in the Western world in not having statues if we did get rid of all our statues.
而且，显然我们不会这么做。
And, obviously, we're not going to.
所以
So
这不会发生。
It's not gonna happen.
是的。
Yeah.
但作为一个论点，它有点太突然了，汤姆。
But but as an argument, it was kind of So, Tom.
令人震惊。
Bracing.
我们现在在这里，可能是这个播客片段的最后一座雕像了，你觉得？
We are now here, probably the last statue of this bit of the podcast, you think?
这是艾迪丝·科维尔。
And this is Edith Covell.
这位是护士，于1915年10月12日黎明时分被德国人枪杀。
So, this is the nurse who was shot at dawn on 10/12/1915 by the Germans.
她曾帮助被困在西线敌后盟军士兵逃脱。
She had been helping allied servicemen trapped behind the enemy lines in the Western Front to escape.
她被枪决了，我认为是被当作叛徒，因为她是一名护士，红十字会护士，但在德国人看来，她与盟军合作玷污了她的职业使命。
She was shot, I I think for as a traitor, as an She'd been a nurse, a Red Cross nurse, and she had sort of dishonored her calling in the German's eyes by working with the allies.
这引发了巨大的国际丑闻。
There was a huge international scandal.
美国人曾恳求她不要这样做。
The Americans begged her not to do it.
英国各地都有各种国家纪念设施。
She had There's all kinds of state memorials in in Britain.
我尤其喜欢的是，这其实是一种相当进步的纪念方式，因为这座雕像把她塑造成一个类似玛丽·波平斯的形象，旁边还刻着‘人性’这样的字眼。
And what I also like, I mean, it's a very sort of progressive memorial in a way, because you've got this statue of her looking like a sort of Mary Poppins ish figure and words like humanity and
那种氛围。
stuff vibe.
那位助产士其实也很棒。
Very cool the midwife, actually.
是的。
Yeah.
但你又看到了这两段铭文之间完全的矛盾。
But then you have the utter contradiction of the two inscriptions.
是的。
Yes.
所以在底部，写着她临死前说过的那句名言：光有爱国心是不够的。
So, at the bottom it says her famous quote which she says before she dies, patriotism is not enough.
我必须对任何人都不怀仇恨或怨恨。
I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone.
而在
And then at
顶部呢，汤姆？
the top, Tom?
为国王和国家。
For king and country.
光有爱国心是不够的。
Patriotism is not enough.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这两者之间有点矛盾，对吧？
So the two are slightly at odds with each other, aren't they?
也许我的意思是，雕像的解决方案就是放两个完全冲突的讯息。
Maybe I mean, maybe that's that's the solution with statues is to put two totally conflicting messages.
是的。
Yeah.
也许吧。
Maybe.
这在某种程度上，就像查理一世和克伦威尔的配对一样。
So which in a way is, you know, it's the pairing of Charles the first and and Cromwell again.
它是
It's
对。
Yes.
我想是的。
I suppose so.
那
That
也许你必须接受，没有任何一座雕像足以完整地体现一个完整的讯息，它只能与其他事物形成张力而存在。
maybe you have to accept that no one statue can is sufficient to to embody an entire message, that it can only exist in in tension with something else.
雕像总是具有多重含义，不是吗？
Statues always have multiple meanings, don't they?
我的意思是，像纳皮尔和哈维洛克的那些雕像，如果人们持那种观点，也可以把它们看作是英国所做错事的纪念物，对吧？
I mean, they can have so those statues in Napier and Havelock, I mean, could see them as memorials of what Britain did wrong if they're all that way inclined, can you?
你可以的
You could
当然可以。
see Absolutely.
是的。
Yes.
罪恶的象征。
Emblems of sin.
你没必要把它们当成圣徒的象征。
You don't have to see them as emblems of saint.
我是说，很明显，伊迪丝·卡维尔在这里就被塑造成了圣人的形象。
I mean, obviously, Edith Cavell, she's a saint here.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Yeah.
而且我觉得，她是这里唯一一个以殉道者或受害者的身份留在这里的人——也许只有查理一世除外，但那也是在他去世之后才被追封的。
And she's the only person, I think, in this apart from possibly Charles the first, although only subsequently after his death, but she's the only person who's here because she's a martyr or a victim.
你也知道，这里的其他人基本都曾有过杀掠行为，可她是因为遭人枪击才离世，才出现在这里的。
The others are people who, you know, generally killed other people, whereas she's here because she was shot.
没错。
Yeah.
所以，她，达伦，这是一座非常基督教风格的雕像。
So, and that she, Darren, this is quite a Christian statue.
是的，确实是。
It it it is.
而且我认为，当我们继续制作第二集时，我们会沿着白厅走下去，到达议会广场。
And I think that when we go on to do our our second episode, when we will go down Whitehall, get to Parliament Square.
当然，在议会广场，你也会看到威斯敏斯特大教堂，那里有十座殉道者的雕像。
Of course, on Parliament Square, you also have Westminster Abbey, and Westminster Abbey has 10 statues to martyrs there.
是的。
Yeah.
这又在某种程度上与那里那些自夸的雕像形成了对比。
Which again kind of provides a maybe a counterpoint to the braggadocio of the statues that you get there.
好的。
Okay.
我认为这是西风的好消息。
Well, that's good news on Westwind I think.
我觉得我们还没
I don't think we've
我们不会取消伊迪丝·卡维尔吧？
We're not gonna cancel Edith Cavell, are we?
不会。
No.
我们不会取消。
We're not gonna cancel.
我们
We're
运气不错。
getting lucky.
我觉得我们会同意取消乔治·华盛顿吗？
I think Would we agree we'll cancel George Washington?
不会。
No.
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