77. 雕像：白厅

但是，我

But, I

认为，如果你假设这些雕像都是有罪的人，都是

think I I think, you see, if you work on the assumption that all these statues are people who are sinners, who are people who are

好的。

all Okay.

有血有肉的凡人，

Who are human beings with

是的。

Yeah.

但我也想说，这座纪念碑不仅是为了斯利姆，也是为了在他麾下作战的人们。

But also, would say that it's a monument not just to Slim, but to the people who fought under him.

所以名字才这么重要，比如阿拉干那些事。

That's why the name's so important, the Arakan and all that stuff.

所以我认为这很重要。

So I think that's that that's important.

艾伦·布鲁克子爵。

Viscount Alan Brook.

所以他是帝国总参谋长，我想。

So he was the chief of the imperial general staff, I think.

我哥哥在这儿到处都是。

My brother is all over here.

是的。

Yeah.

我们不会谈论他。

I'm not we're not gonna talk about him.

在你的纪念碑上刻上这些字样意义重大。

It's much having that written on your memorial.

多米尼克。

Dominic.

别想那事儿了。

Don't dream of that.

我们谈论他毫无意义。

It's it's pointless us talking about him.

让听众去听我哥哥谈他吧。

Tell the listeners to go and and and listen to my brother talk about him.

我有个关于他的事实。

I've got a fact about him.

他是个非常热衷观鸟的人。

He's a very keen bird watcher.

是的。

Yeah.

就像外交大臣爱德华·格雷一样。

Like Edward Edward Grey, the foreign secretary.

是的。

Yeah.

非常符合第一次世界大战时期。

Very the first world wars.

显然，这方面的内容有个播客，汤姆。

Obviously, there's a podcast on that, Tom.

观鸟和世界大战。

Bird watching and and world wars.

然后我们还有蒙蒂。

And then we've got Monty.

是的。

Yeah.

那么，蒙蒂是谁赢得了战役？

Now, Monty Who won the battle

阿拉曼战役。

of El Alamein.

所以他是元帅、蒙哥马利子爵，

So he's field marshal, viscount, Montgomery of

可以说，英国最著名的现代将领，我的意思是，毫无疑问，就是蒙蒂。

Arguably Britain's you know, if you're thinking about Britain's most famous modern general, I mean, arguably, I mean, it's clearly Monty.

不过，蒙蒂是个非常古怪的人，汤姆。

Monty is a very peculiar man though, Tom.

你知道吗？当他快四十岁时，他追求一位17岁的女孩，年龄差距相当大。

You know how he wooed his so his when he was in his late thirties, he courted a girl, 17 year old girl, which is quite an age gap.

明白了。

Right.

你知道他是怎么做的吗？

Do know how he did it?

他跟她说些什么？

Did he talk to her about

关于坦克。

About tanks.

他用手指在沙地上画坦克，向她展示自己在军事行动中如何使用它们。

He drew tanks in the sand and showed how he would use how he would use them in a military engagement.

我觉得，用这种方式追求女孩还挺合理的，不是吗？

Well, I think that's a reasonable way to court a girl, isn't it?

他，我的意思是，支持种族隔离。

He's I mean, pro apartheid.

他访问过南非，称赞种族隔离制度多么出色。

Visited South Africa and said how tremendous apartheid was.

而且，他对同性恋也有非常强烈的观点。

And, also, had very strong views about homosexuality.

等等，他真的这么说过吗？

Now, this Did he?

他说了？他是支持还是反对？

He said Was he in favor or not?

他说，关于

He said, of

关于非刑事化，哦，我摔过护栏。

the decriminalization of oh, I fell over a barrier.

他说，关于同性恋非刑事化，这种事法国人或许能容忍，但谢天谢地我们是英国人。

He said, of the decriminalization of homosexuality, this sort of thing may be tolerated by the French, but thank God we're British.

正如制片人指出的，蒙蒂身上有些疑问。

As the producer was pointing out, there is some question mark about Monty.

所以，保留还是取消？

So, keep or cancel?

我讨厌保留，你呢？

I hate keep, don't you?

意思是，他身上有阿拉曼的味道。

Mean, because he smell alamein.

他是个

He's a

是的。

Yeah.

有阿拉曼的味道。

Smell alamein.

是的。

Yeah.

但再说一遍，这是因为

But again, it's that

他他他，再说一遍，他

he's he's Well, again, he's

他站在那里，是因为他代表了所有在他麾下作战、其中一些人在他麾下牺牲的士兵。

up he's up there because he represents all the men who fought under him and some of whom died under him.

你看，这就是问题所在。

See, this is thing.

我在想雕像。

I think about statues.

人们总是默认，支持一座雕像就意味着认同该人物所相信、所代表或所说的一切。

There's always this presumption that by endorsing the statue, endorse everything the subject believed or stood for or said.

在蒙哥马利的情况下，很明显，他是支持种族隔离、反对同性恋的。

It's obviously in Montgomery's case, know, pro apartheid, anti gay.

没人。

Nobody.

纪念蒙蒂，并不意味着你认同那些观点。

By honoring Monty, I don't think you're honoring those views.

而且，我的意思是，即使在他生前，他也被视为怪人，不是吗？

Also, I mean, even in his lifetime, he was seen as odd, wasn't he?

哦，无论在哪里，这位绅士都被认为

Oh, everywhere the gentleman thought

是的。

he was.

是的。

Yeah.

所有人都讨厌他。

All loathed him.

是的。

Yeah.

但士兵们确实爱戴他。

But, yeah, the soldiers loved him.

他是士兵们的朋友。

He was the soldiers friend.

如果你看过他在车里的影像或照片，看到士兵们围在他身边，想和他握手，

If you ever see footage or photos of him in his car, and soldiers are clustering around, you know, want to shake his hand and

好的。

Okay.

一瞥

A glimpse

他的确如此。

of his Yeah.

我明白您的意思，先生。

I I take your point, sir.

我很乐意保留这三者，但我确实对这三者有些意见。

I'm I'm very happy to keep all three, but I do have I do have something against them, against the three of them.

因为最初，直到我认为2001年为止，这里一直有一座沃尔特·雷利爵士的雕像。

Because originally, up until I think 2001, there was a statue here of sir Walter Raleigh.

好的。

Okay.

伊丽莎白时代的土豆。

The Elizabethan Potatoes.

做一个

Be an

冒险家。

adventurer.

是的。

Yeah.

正如十月和所有人提到的那样，他因属于前朝余孽而被詹姆斯一世关进塔里。

Who was, as October and all that said, put in the tower by James the first for being left over from the previous reign.

他就在这儿被处决了。

And he was he was executed on on this spot.

是吗？

Was he?

是的。

Yep.

所以这座雕像被立在这里以标记地点。

So the statue was put here to mark the spot.

然后他们搬动了它，主要是因为雷利的雕像太矮了。

And then they they moved it basically because the statue of him he the statue of Raleigh was too too short.

所以他看起来滑稽地矮小。

So he looked kind of comically dwarfish

对。

Right.

与二战将领们相比。

Compared to the second world war generals.

是的。

Yeah.

因此对此有点不满。

So slightly resentful of that.

但莱利已经被移到了格林威治。

But Riley's been moved to Greenwich.

所以，汤姆，二战时期的将军们。

So, Tom, second world war generals.

我意识到，在这个播客中，我们迄今为止只介绍了男性。

I'm conscious that in this podcast, we've done only men so far.

那你有没有推荐的女性人物给我？

So have you got any women for me?

这经常是我问你的问题。

A question I often ask you.

多米尼克，我很高兴你问了我这个问题。

Dominic, I'm so glad you asked me that question.

我没有。

I don't.

你没有？

You don't?

不，我没有。

No, I don't.

但我确实有一个纪念二战女性的纪念碑

But I do have a monument to the women of World War two

好的。

Right.

但上面实际上并没有任何女性形象。

Which doesn't actually have any women on it.

它只展示了那个。

It just has that.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

那是一个非常、非常‘是的’。

That's a very, very Yeah.

它只是她们的衣服。

It's just their clothes.

所以它就像是，我想说的是，有点像战时女农工之类的

So it's like it's like, I guess it's kind of land girls and

是的。

Yeah.

战时女农工，没错，还有救护车司机。

Land girls, exactly, and and ambulance drivers.

海军女子服务队之类的，没错。

Wrens and things like Exactly.

还有她们的制服和衣服，挂在巨大的石块上。

And and their uniforms and clothes hanging from kinda great block.

所以这显然是白厅稍远处那座和平纪念碑的对应物，我想那座纪念碑是由卢特恩斯设计的，为纪念第一次世界大战而建，至今仍是全国年度纪念活动的中心。

So that's and it's obviously a counterpart to the cenotaph, is just a bit further down Whitehall, which I guess is the I mean, that was raised so that's designed by Lutyens, and it's raised to commemorate the the first World War, and it's still the, you know, the annual focus of the nation's remembrance.

我们朝中心走吧。

Let's walk towards the center.

但我只是想说说二战女性纪念碑上的铭文。

But I just wanted to say about the it the lettering on the the monument to the women of World War two.

是的。

Yeah.

二战，我的意思是，这像是个美式说法。

World War two, I mean, that's an Americanism, I think.

这是续集，不是吗？

It's a sequel, isn't it?

二战，续集。

World War two, sequel.

阿尔·默里那个笑话。

The Al Murray joke.

对。

Yeah.

但是，

But,

我的意思是，这有点令人羞愧，不是吗？

I mean, that's kind of disgraceful, isn't it?

我还能勉强接受这个。

I can kinda live with that.

我想，第二次世界大战不可能放在它们所有人的侧面。

I suppose the second world war wouldn't fit on the on the side of them all.

他们得换字体，那可就麻烦了。

They'd to change the font, and that would be a faff.

我觉得二战女性群像是一座伟大的纪念碑。

I think that women of World War two is a great monument.

实际上，这很巧妙。

Actually, it's clever.

它确实很突出，和其他的相比。

It's it's, you know, it stands out compared with the others.

确实如此。

It really does.

而且，它的背景——那种军事化、全男性的环境——让它显得更加有力。

And it's it's the the context, the the militaristic, the all male context makes it all the more powerful.

是的

Yeah.

我同意。

I agree.

而且它

And it

与战争纪念碑相得益彰。

complements the cenotaph.

我认为

And I think

确实如此。

to It does.

作为一座纪念碑来呼应战争纪念碑，这相当了不起。

For monument to to complement the cenotaph is quite something.

不。

No.

我觉得，我不知道你是否同意我的看法，但我觉得这个纪念碑是一件了不起的公共艺术作品。

I think I don't know if you'd agree with me, but I think the cenotaph is an amazing bit of public art.

因为我认为，它不是具象的。

Because I think because it's not figurative.

是的。

Yeah.

同意。

Agreed.

而且它在某种程度上出人意料地谦逊。

And because it's actually surprisingly modest in a way.

它并不令人压迫。

It's not overpowering.

它的简约反而令人动容。

It's kind of moving in its simplicity.

正如你所说，它就像一座建在基座上的祭坛之类的东西。

You know, as you say, it's like a sort of altar or something built up on a on a plinth.

一端刻着‘光荣的逝者’。

It says the glorious dead at one end.

它建于1920年。

It was built in And so it doesn't it doesn't in 1920.

它并没有过度渲染爱国主义。

It it doesn't go overboard with the patriotism.

它本身并不是一个具有强烈民族主义色彩的纪念碑。

It's not it's not an inherently nationalistic monument.

它还

It's also

汤姆，这是在这两个播客中第一个出现有人在观看它的雕像。

the first statue in in either of these podcasts, Tom, where there are people actually looking at it.

是的。

Yeah.

有一家人带着年幼的孩子前来观看，这在某种程度上确实令人动容。

So, there's a family with very small children going to look at it, which is actually, I think in its way, quite a sort of moving

而且他们刚刚放了一个花圈，我想。

And laying they just laid a wreath, I think.

现在有个小女孩正往那边走。

There's a little girl going back there now.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这是一个坐在台阶上的小女孩。

And this is a little girl sitting on the stairs.

你看，我觉得这很美好。

You see, I think that's lovely.

我认为这就是公共艺术、历史艺术所做到的。

And I think that is what public art, historic art does.

我的意思是，人们当然不会

I mean, of course people aren't

在雕像那里做这种事

doing that at statue

查尔斯·纳皮尔的雕像。

of Charles Napier.

如果真是那样，那就太奇怪了。

Mean, it'd be pretty bizarre if they were.

但我觉得非常感人，你知道，距离这座雕像建成已经一百零一年了，人们仍然会来参观，也就是说，我认为他们本质上是……

But, I think that is very moving that, you know, a hundred and one years after it was built, people are still going to visit it and to sort of I mean, they're basically I think so

它让我们注意到，我们看过的所有雕像都是单一人物。

It it draws attention to the way in which all the statues that we've looked at have been of single figures.

因此，缺乏一种共同性的感觉。

So there isn't a sense of of the commonality.

没有体现出对所有阵亡将士或其他人的缅怀之情。

There isn't a sense of tribute being paid to, you know, all the art people who've died or whatever.

而和平纪念碑则恰恰相反，它通过完全不展现任何人物形象来实现这一点。

Whereas the cenotaph does that simply by not showing any figures at all.

Cenotaph的意思是空墓，对吧？

Cenotaph, that means empty tomb, does it?

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我说它是个祭坛，但它其实不是祭坛。

So, I said it was an altar, but it's not an altar.

它是一个位于基座顶部的墓冢，高高耸立在车流之上。

It's a tomb on the top, tomb on the plinth, elevated above the traffic.

而且我确实同意你的看法。

And I do think I agree with you.

我认为，正如描述中所说，它是为那些光荣逝去的人而设的。

I think, as it says, it's the glorious dead, as the description reads.

我的意思是，它代表了所有在第一次世界大战中阵亡的人，这比任何一个单独的人物形象都要更有力量，我觉得。

I mean, it represents everybody who fell in the first world war, and that's more powerful than a single figure could ever be, I think.

对。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

当然要保留这一点。

Well, definitely keeping that.

好的。

Okay.

这绝对不是取消。

So, that's definitely not a cancel.

我们该休息一下了。

We should take a break.

然后去议会广场。

And then head to Parliament Square.

议会广场。

Parliament Square.

非常好。

Very good.

一会儿见。

See you in a minute.

欢迎回到《TheRestHistory》。

Welcome back to TheRestHistory.

我们正在谈论雕像。

We're talking about statues.

我们刚才在阳光明媚的白厅散步，前往议会广场，而汤姆·霍兰德以他那让我再熟悉不过的方式，坚持要我们拐个弯，现在我们正站在阳光灿烂的伦敦街头的阴影里。

We were on a lovely sunlit walk down Whitehall heading for Parliament Square, and Tom Holland in his not unfamiliar way, to me at least, has insisted that we take a dogleg, and we're now standing in the shade on a beautiful sunny London day.

我们躲在一家被封起来的店铺旁，隔着马路看着被脚手架包围的Big Bend，上面立着谁的雕像，汤姆？

We're lurking by a boarded up shop looking across at Big Bend covered with scaffolding and a statue of who, Tom?

是布狄卡女王。

Of queen Boudicca.

我带你来这儿的原因是，我认为这座雕像是我们迄今为止见过的最有趣、也最矛盾的雕像。

And the reason I wanted to drag you here is that I think that this statue is the most interesting because the most paradoxical statue of any that we have looked at.

对于不知道布狄卡是谁的听众来说，布狄卡，布狄卡，

So for our listeners who don't know who Boudicca was So Boudicca Boudicca,

布狄卡，布狄卡，她在中世纪就被熟知，直到最近都一直被广泛称为艾西尼部落的女王，这个不列颠部落曾在罗马占领初期发动起义反抗罗马人。

Boudicca, Boudicca, she was known in the Middle Ages as she was named quite popularly up up until quite recently, was the queen of the Aicani, which was a British tribe that rose in revolt against the Romans in the early years of the Roman occupation.

是的。

Yeah.

她的女儿们被强奸了吗？

Was her daughters raped or something?

是

Is

对吗？

that right?

她的女儿们被罗马人强奸了。

Her daughters were raped by the Romans.

布狄卡遭到殴打，她因愤怒和羞辱而率领部族展开了一场血腥的屠杀，焚毁了当时的罗马不列颠首府科尔切斯特，然后直扑伦敦。

Boudicca was beaten, and such was her fury and shame that she she she led her tribe on a a murderous rampage that incinerated Colchester, the capital of Roman Britain as it was then, and then descended on London

达德·弗朗西斯。

Darde Francis.

烧毁了伦敦。

Torched London.

直到今天，考古学家仍能通过她留下的黑色土壤痕迹追溯这场浩劫。

And to this day, archaeologists can trace the devastation that she brought in the kind of the black soil that that it left.

因此，这里存在一个惊人的悖论：这位女王曾焚毁伦敦，而如今她却矗立在威斯敏斯特桥尽头，俯瞰着大本钟，成为首都最著名的地标之一。

So there's an incredible paradox in the fact that you have a queen who incinerated London in one of the most iconic spat spots in the whole of the capital because she's on the end of Westminster Bridge looking up at Big Ben.

每个来到这里的人都会看到她。

So everybody comes here will see her.

她坐在战车上。

She's in a chariot.

战车车轮上装有镰刀——虽然她历史上并没有使用过，但这是一个广为流传的传说。

She's got scythes on the chariot wheels, which she didn't have, but was a popular legend.

她的女儿们也陪伴在她身旁。

She's got her daughters with her.

在她所讲的凯尔特语中，‘Boudicca’意味着胜利，即‘Victoria’。

Boudicca in the Celtic language that she spoke, meant victory, Victoria.

但她并没有

But she didn't

获胜。

win.

所以这也是维多利亚女王的肖像。

So this is also a portrait of Victoria, Queen Victoria.

所以这座雕像是为了纪念维多利亚女王。

So it's raised in honor of of Oh, nice.

维多利亚女王。

Queen Victoria.

所以这里有很多复杂的因素。

So there's all kinds of complications here.

我们之前讨论过，这种源自罗马的雕塑遗产会引发人们怎样的矛盾心理。

We've talked about the the ambivalences that this kind of Roman inheritance of statuary rises provokes for people.

那么当我们凝视布狄卡雕像时，我们是以英国人的身份，还是以罗马人的身份在看呢？

So when we look at the statue of Boudicca, are we doing so as Britons or as as Romans?

正如他一样

As he is

我们是否在认同建立伦敦的罗马人？

Are we identifying with the Romans who founded London?

所以从某种意义上说，如果你是伦敦人，你就是罗马人的继承者。

So in a sense, if you're a Londoner, you are an heir of of of the Romans.

还是说，你把她当作英国人，当作被压迫民族的一员来看待？

Or are you looking at her as as a Briton, as a member of the oppressed people?

同时要记住，这座雕像建立于大英帝国的鼎盛时期，是的。

And bearing in mind that this was put up in the heyday of the British Empire Yeah.

这种矛盾非常巨大，因为

The ambivalence is a huge because

是的。

Yeah.

谁应该被这样

Who are supposed to this

是大英帝国的纪念碑，还是对殖民掠夺提出疑问？

a monument to British imperialism, or is it a question mark being raised over the depredations

帝国占领的暴行？

of imperial occupation?

做得非常好。

Very nicely done.

所以，是的。

So Yeah.

我认为，这体现了所有那些紧张、矛盾和复杂性，我怀疑当我们去议会广场时，也会感受到同样的氛围。

I I think that this channels all the tensions and paradoxes and complications that I suspect that when we go to Parliament Square, we're also going

去观看一场示威活动。

to It's be looking a demonstration.

它体现了这些公共艺术作品都具有多重含义这一事实。

It's embodiment to the fact that these all these works of public art have multiple meanings.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

为了

To

在某种程度上，你将自己想看到的东西投射到了它上面。

an extent, you project onto that what you want to see in it.

但我要说，自从你开始说话以来，很多人，非常多的人。

But I will say this, a lot of people an awful lot of people since you've been talking.

我的意思是，显然我注意到很多人在看你，互相窃窃私语，那是电视上的汤姆·霍兰德，其余的都是历史。

I mean, obviously, I've noticed loads of people looking at you and whispering to each other, is that that's TV's Tom Holland and the rest is history.

但我忍不住注意到，没有人看那座雕像。

But I can't help noticing that nobody has looked at the statue.

没有。

No.

那里有一位先生刚刚抬头看了它一眼。

There's a gentleman there just looked up at it.

是的。

Yeah.

你觉得他

Think he

是在看天空。

was looking at the sky.

不是。

No.

我不这么认为。

I don't think so.

我觉得他是在看我，这是一座宏伟的雕像。

I think he was he was at my it's a splendid statue.

是的。

It is.

人群真不错。

It's a very nice a crowd.

她手里拿着一支长矛。

She's holding a spear.

是的。

Yes.

她的马正在腾跃而起。

Her horses are rising up.

这简直就是一切。

It's it's everything.

而且这实际上是欧洲雕塑传统的一部分，它恰恰提出了这个问题。

And it's actually it's part of a a whole tradition of European statuary, which asks exactly this question.

在法国，你有维钦托利的雕像，这位高卢领袖曾对抗罗马人。

So in France, you have statues of Versing Getrix, the Gallic leader who fought against the Romans.

在德国，你有阿尔米尼乌斯的雕像，他也曾击败罗马。

In Germany, you've got statues of Arminius who, again, defeated Rome.

但当然，这些雕像本身完全属于罗马传统。

But but, of course, these statues are themselves absolutely in the Roman tradition.

所以是的。

So Yeah.

这是对罗马雕塑遗产的一种审视，我觉得这非常有趣。

It's it's an interrogation of the inheritance of Roman statuary, which I think is is is fascinating.

汤姆，我们完全没谈到雕塑在国家建设、民族认同和国家叙事中的重要性。

What we haven't talked about at all, Tom, is the importance of statues to kind of nation building and a sense of national identity and a national story.

所以，我总是觉得，经典的例子是我几年前制作的一个系列播客，主题是关于虚构的历史。

So the the classic example of this, I always think, I did a a rival podcast series, a limited series a couple of years ago in which in the fight it was about invented history.

这个系列叫《被劫持的历史》。

It's called hijacked histories.

在最后一集中，我们去了现在的北马其顿共和国，那里与邻国希腊发生了巨大的争端，因为他们竖立了亚历山大大帝和腓力二世的雕像，并声称这些人是他们的祖先，他们拥有这些历史。

And the final episode, we went to the Republic Of North Macedonia as it now is, where they famously have got into enormous rouse with their neighbors, the Greeks, because they put up statues of Alexander the Great and Philip Of Macedon, and claims that these people were theirs and that they own them.

人们一直嘲笑马其顿人，因为他们在首都斯科普里竖立了成千上万座雕像。

And people have always laughed at the Macedonians because they put up billions of statues in Skopje, their capital.

现在那里看起来就像一座雕像主题乐园。

And it looks like a sort of statue Disneyland now.

但实际上，虽然很容易嘲笑他们，但我认为在西方世界，竖立雕像正是我们所做的事情。

But actually, although it's easy to laugh at them, I kinda think putting up statues is that in the Western world is what you do.

这是为了讲述你的国家故事。

It's to tell your national story.

你用石头和青铜把它铭刻下来，这实际上就是国家建设传统的一部分，如果你愿意这么说的话。

You write it in stone and and bronze, and and that's actually just part of the sort of the canon of nation building, if you like.

这尤其是一种希腊人的做法，因为他们才是真正开创这一传统的人。

And it's a particularly Greek thing because they're the the people who start it, really.

是的。

Yeah.

那是因为这是对的。

That's because that's right.

那是伟大的遗产。

That's the that's the great inheritance.

我记得我们和迈克尔·伍德做关于中国的播客时，曾讨论过兵马俑是否受到希腊写实雕像模式的影响。

And I remember when we were doing the the podcast with Michael Wood on China, the question of whether the the terracotta army was influenced by that Greek model of figurative statue.

我认为在印度确实如此，尽管印度本土自古就有雕塑传统，比如中世纪印度的国王雕像，但穆斯林的到来显然中断了这一传统。

And I think it's certainly the case, say, in in India, although there were absolutely kind of native traditions of of sculpting, you know, kings in in in medieval India, the the coming of the Muslims obviously irradiated that tradition.

所以你们并没有穆斯林帝国统治者的雕塑形象。

So you you don't have sculptural representation, say, of the the the the Mughals.

因此，从某种意义上说，印度现代的写实雕塑传统，就像布狄卡雕像一样，其实是罗马殖民者的遗产；而那些描绘印度自由斗士的雕像，则是英国殖民者的遗产。

So in a sense, the modern tradition of figurative portraiture of sculpture in India, ironically, rather like the statue of Boudicca is an inheritance from the Roman colonialists, the statue portraying Indian freedom fighters is an inheritance from the British imperialists.

所以这可以说是一种

So it's it's a kind of

是的。

Yeah.

确实影响深远。

Massive moipers It is.

文化影响与文化排斥的交织。

Strip of cultural influence and cultural rejection.

就是这样。

That's all.

我们走过时没提到的两座半身像。

Two two busts that we didn't talk about that we walked past.

红狮酒吧、查尔斯·狄更斯和杰弗里·乔叟。

The Red Lion Pub, Charles Dickens and Geoffrey Chaucer.

到目前为止，我们只经过了这两位作家。

And they're the they're the only two writers that we've passed so far.

所以这就是巨大的空白，对吧？

So that's the massive gap, isn't it?

所以我们基本上只关注了那些——除了少数例外——因为杀人而被立雕像的人。

So we we've looked at people basically who who who, you know, with the odd exception, get their statues put up because they've killed people.

这非常希腊和罗马。

Which is very Greek and Roman.

非常希腊和罗马。

Very Greek and Roman.

是的。

Yes.

尽管希腊人和罗马人也有雕像，但他们当然也是伟大的作家。

Although the Greeks and Romans had statues, they're great writers, of course.

是的

Yeah.

而这是我们所没有的。

And that is something that we we don't have.

我认为狄更斯是比任何人都更代表作家的

I think Dickens so Dickens is probably the writer who more than anyone else

嗯，莎士比亚。

Well, Shakespeare.

不。

No.

但它象征着伦敦。

But it symbolizes London.

好吧。

Okay.

对。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

我们对伦敦的印象完全是由狄更斯塑造的。

Our image of London is is completely fashioned by Dickens.

我认为狄更斯曾要求不要为他竖立任何雕像。

And I think Dickens requested that there be no statues of him put up.

所以我猜这就是为什么没有他的雕像的原因。

So I would guess that's the reason that there there aren't statues of him.

但乔叟也极大地影响了我们对伦敦的认知，因为《坎特伯雷故事集》开篇就是人们在南华克、泰晤士河南岸的一家酒馆里聚集。

But Chaucer also, huge influence on how we see London because The Canterbury Tales begins with people meeting in a pub in in in in Southwark in in in on the South Bank Of The Thames.

在疫情期间，这一点深深触动了我，因为原本我计划在四月和我哥哥一起徒步穿越肯特郡，就像当年的坎特伯雷朝圣者那样。

And this really powerfully struck me during the pandemic because I was meant to be that April, I was meant to be walking across Kent with my brother just as the the the Canterbury pilgrims did.

当然，由于疫情和封锁，我们没能实现这个计划。

Of course, couldn't do that because of the the the pandemic and the lockdown.

所以我开始阅读《坎特伯雷故事集》，它让我重新感受到其中的激动人心之处，因为乔叟写作的时代，瘟疫在伦敦肆虐，尤其在冬季更为严重。

So I I began reading Canterbury Tales, and it struck me completely afresh, the excitement of it, because Chaucer is writing at a time where the plague is is endemic in London, and it would be particularly endemic over the winter.

因此，你可能会在冬季选择自我隔离。

So you would perhaps isolate self isolate over the winter.

而那种不保持社交距离、在酒馆与陌生人相聚，然后在春天启程、鸟儿歌唱、细雨滋润肯特大地的场景，真的让我心驰神往。

And then the whole thing about the the joy of of not socially distancing and meeting up with strangers in a pub and setting out across the, you know, the spring with the birds singing and the the the sweet showers across Kent.

这让我充满了淡淡的怀念与渴望。

It kinda filled me with this wistful yearning.

在封锁期间，我做的一件事就是沿着乔叟的足迹穿越南伦敦。

And I I I say one of the things that I did over the lockdown was to follow in Chaucer's footsteps through across South London.

对我来说，乔叟和狄更斯对伦敦乃至整个英格兰的描绘，比我们所熟知的任何人物都更加生动鲜活。

And for me, Chaucer and Dickens are far more vivid representations, not just of London, but of England than any of the figures that we've

我们所见过的。

looked at.

我认为这非常公允。

Probably I think that's very fair.

我认为，如果你要重新设计白厅，并且被要求用雕像来象征英格兰或英国，但不能选用军事领袖——事实上，如果你

I think if you were redesigning white if you were told to redesign Whitehall and to align it with statues to symbolize England or Britain, and you weren't allowed military leaders well, indeed, if you

我可能会保留那些旧的军事人物。

just started I'd the old military.

我一定会留下纳尔逊。

I'd have to keep Nelson.

我的意思是，纳尔逊有种魅力，根本不需要改他的名字。

I mean, I think Nelson is a kind of charismatic wouldn't have to change his name.

这对我来说毫无意义。

It would mean nothing to me.

是的。

Yeah.

但你确实有狄更斯和牛顿，说起来，我们居然不太了解科学家，我想他的名字是？

But, you definitely have Dickinson and Newton and I mean, it's odd that we don't know scientists, I suppose, is his name.

我会选詹纳。

I'd have Jenner.

可以一直说下去。

Could keep saying.

是的。

Yeah.

他特别推崇詹纳。

He's mad about Jenner.

Anyway, Tom，我们一直打算去议会广场，而且过去两期播客里我们一直承诺要讲这个。

Anyway, Tom, we always intended to get to Parliament Square, and we've been promising that for about a lot for our the last two podcasts.

而且我们说得太久了，一是我们走得太慢，二是你话太多。

And we've gone on far too long because a, we're slow walkers, and b, we you talk too much.

这就是天性。

That is nature.

你一直在讲这些奇怪的伊丽莎白时代，我是说，爱德华时代的将军和情妇。

You've been going on about all these weird Elizabethan I mean, Edwardian generals of mistresses.

我们可能确实如此。

I probably well, we probably have been.

嗯，我觉得我们都讲得太多了。

Well, I think we've both been talking too much.

我觉得我们一直在啰嗦。

I think we've We've been wibbling.

那我们在三部曲的第三部分去议会广场怎么样？

So, should do Parliament Square in a in the third part of A trilogy?

一部宏伟的三部曲。

A mighty trilogy.

而在议会广场，当然就能见到那些重量级人物。

And in Parliament Square, of course, you get to the big guns.

你会看到劳合·乔治、丘吉尔、曼德拉、甘地、米利森特·福西特，还有德比伯爵，我知道大家都认识他。

You get to Lloyd George, Churchill, Mandela, Gandhi, Millicent Fawcett, and the Earl of Derby, who I know everybody is.

还有克伦威尔。

And Cromwell.

是的。

Yes.

克伦威尔还没到呢。

Cromwell's to come.

还有狮心王理查。

And Richard the first.

太好了。

Oh, very good.

我们将在本播客三部曲的终章——议会广场篇中讲述这些内容，下次再见。

We will do that the Return of the Jedi of this podcasting triptych on Parliament Square, and we will see you next time.

是的。

Yeah.

再见。

See you.

感谢收听《历史的其余部分》。

Thanks for listening to The Rest is History.

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那就是 restishistorypod.com。

That's restishistorypod.com.