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你好。
Hello.
欢迎来到我们‘休息即历史’特别节目的第三部分，主题是伦敦市中心的雕像。
Welcome to the third part of our rest is history special on the statues of Central London.
多米尼克，从一开始我们就一直在逐步走向我们现在所站的位置，对吧？
And, Dominic, we've really been kind of working our way towards where we are standing now, haven't we, right from the very beginning?
因为我们现在位于议会广场，正对着那座引发整个雕像争议的雕像——温斯顿·丘吉尔的雕像。
Because we're now in Parliament Square, and we're in front of the statue that that triggered the whole statue debate, which is the image of Winston Churchill.
是的。
Yeah.
这尊庞大笨重的雕像。
This great hulking image.
这尊庞大笨重的雕像，实际上已成为文化战争中的一个焦点。
Great hulking image, which essentially has become a kind of lightning rod in the culture wars.
所以我们赶上了这一天，当时它没有被脚手架包围，也没有被‘种族主义者’或‘切尔西足球俱乐部’的标语遮蔽
So we've come on the one day when it's not covered with scaffolding or dwarfed with is a racist or Chelsea FC
是的。
Yes.
或者它所代表的其他任何东西，没错。
Or any of the other things that it's Exactly.
你可能在这里
You may be here
在过去的这段时间里，是的。
at in the last so, yes.
所以在议会广场的时代，他正对着大本钟。
So on the Age of Parliament Square, he's he's facing Big Ben.
他是一个极其威严的英雄形象。
He's this incredibly imposing sort of heroic figure.
据说，汤姆，丘吉尔在去世前二十年就规划了这个区域。
So supposedly, Tom, Churchill ringed twenty years before he died.
他规划了议会广场的这一区域
He ringed this area of Parliament Square
为了他自己。
For himself.
他在地图上指出了一个地方，说：我的雕像就立在这里。
On a map and said, that is where my statue will go.
而那位雕塑家确实重做了雕像，因为看起来太像墨索里尼了。
And they the guy the sculptor did it, apparently had to redo it because it looked too much like Mussolini.
因为他的确长得像，他们不得不把丘吉尔的头做得小一点，否则看起来就会像墨索里尼。
Well because he does look his head they had to make Churchill's head smaller, because otherwise he would look like Mussolini.
但不管怎样，他就在那儿，这位二十世纪英国政治的伟大老人，长期以来被视为敦刻尔克精神、英国斗牛犬精神的化身，所有那些我们从小耳熟能详的刻板印象，对吧？
But anyway, here he is, the great old man of twentieth century British politics, and the sort of, you know, for for so long seen as the incarnation of the the Dunkirk spirit, the British bulldog, all the cliches that we grew up with, I suppose, didn't we?
在某种程度上，他正是我们之所以在做这些播客的原因。
And he is the reason, to some extent, he's the reason we're having this we're doing these podcasts at all.
因为他的雕像如今变得极具争议。
Because his statue has become so controversial.
你怎么看？
What do you think about it?
嗯，我认为在某种程度上，关于这座雕像的争论已经脱离了任何关于丘吉尔本人的历史讨论。
Well, I I I think in a way, it it's the the debate around the statue has become divorced from from any historical debate about Churchill himself.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为，人们来这里给雕像戴上莫希干发型或涂上其他东西，仅仅是因为这是一种有趣的方式去惹恼那些会被这种行为激怒的人。
I think, essentially, people come here and put Mohicans on it or Dorbit or whatever simply because it's a a fun way to annoy people who will be annoyed by people doing that.
但这也挺有娱乐性的，不是吗？
But it's sort of edible, isn't it?
我的意思是，我觉得这
I mean, it's kind of I don't think
甚至都不是这样。
it's even that.
我认为人们甚至并不特别关心丘吉尔。
I don't think that even people even care about Churchill particularly.
你不这么认为吗？
Don't you think so?
我觉得这只是因为，如果你参加游行，想惹恼你所抗议的那些人，你知道破坏丘吉尔的雕像能激怒他们。
I think it's just a I think if you're if you're on a if you're on a demo and you want to annoy the people that you're on a demo protesting against, you know that defacing Churchill will get a rise out of them.
我觉得这更像是在发泄情绪。
I think it's more pissing away.
这是一种惹恼那些人的方法。
It's a way of pissing off the gamuts.
说到‘gamuts’，我应该提一下，是的。
Church And on the topic of gamuts, I should just mention Yeah.
在我们第一期节目中，我们曾讨论过纳皮尔将军的雕像。
The single funniest fact, in our first episode, we did we we looked at the statue of of general Napier.
我忘了提，查尔斯·詹姆斯·纳皮尔爵士的雕像实际上是乔治·加蒙·亚当斯雕刻的。
And I forgot to mention that he the statue of sir Charles James Napier was actually sculpted by somebody called George Gammon Adams.
所以你看，如果我
So See, if I
是个更愤世嫉俗的人，就会觉得你在这档播客的前几分钟，一直在等机会提起你两个节目前忘了说的‘纳皮尔·加蒙’笑话。
was a more cynical man, would think that you've spent the first few moments of this podcast just waiting for an opportunity to bring up your Napier Gammon joke that you forgot to mention two podcasts ago.
你知道吗，我觉得挺有意思的是，他只有一个名字，对吧？
Know, I think that, but It's interesting that he's he's just got the one name, hasn't he?
我的意思是，我也有一个名字。
I mean, well, I've got the one name.
说什么才傻呢？
What's stupid to say?
他的基座上只有一个词。
He's just got the one word on his plinth.
所以，没有‘温斯顿’，没有日期，只有
So, there's no Winston, there's no dates, there's just
没有。
No.
这展示的是他的身份。
It's showing who he was.
没有。
No.
但我猜，人们默认你根本不需要它。
But, I I suppose the assumption was you wouldn't need it.
我的意思是，丘吉尔就是一个巨人般的人物。
I mean, Churchill was just a titanic figure.
实际上，我要说一点。
And actually, I will say this.
他是那种你经过时会看到有人驻足观看的人。
He's one of the you do see people looking at it as they walk past it.
现在就有人在看着它，而且他们马上就要拍照了——这在我们上一期播客中提到的大多数雕像身上是看不到的。
There are people right now looking at it, and they're actually about to take a photo, which is not true of most of the statues we covered in the previous podcast.
所以，这尊雕像显然仍然很重要。
So it's still a statue that clearly well, it matters.
我知道说一个1965年就去世的人的雕像仍然重要，听起来有点奇怪，但它对人们来说确实有意义，无论好坏。
I know it's a weird thing to say of the statue of a man who died in 1965, but it does matter to people, for good or ill.
所以我认为，在雕像问题上，一个关键问题是：为什么要把这尊雕像立起来？
So I think on on the issue of statues, a huge issue is why why is the statue being put up?
正如我们在前两期播客中已经清楚认识到的，每个人物的履历都带有某种矛盾性。
And as we have kind of clearly realized over the course of the previous two podcasts, every figure has a kind of ambivalent record.
是的。
Yeah.
你总能找到阴暗的一面。
You you can always find a dark side.
你总能找到复杂的方面。
You can always find complications.
到目前为止，我们还没遇到过任何圣人吧？
We haven't had any saints yet, have we?
我们确实没遇到过任何圣人。
We haven't had any saints.
因此，他被立像的原因很重要。
And so it matters why he's put up.
这座雕像究竟是为了纪念丘吉尔的种族主义吗？
Was was it is this statue commemorating Churchill's racism?
这是在纪念他对印度的态度吗？
Is it commemorating his attitudes to India?
这是在纪念他在总罢工中的表现吗？
Is it commemorating his record in in the general strike?
我不认为这座雕像立在这里是因为这些原因。
I don't think it it's it's in this poll position for any of those reasons.
这座雕像在这里，是因为他是那个在1940年确保英国在面对世界历史上最恶劣的暴政时保持独立的人。
This statue is here because he is the man who ensured that Britain stayed independent in 1940 against the worst tyranny that the world has ever faced.
汤姆，这说得真好。
Tom, this is great.
继续说下去。
Keep it coming.
正因为如此，如果非得立雕像的话，我乐意让丘吉尔的雕像立在这里。
And and for that reason, if there has to be statues, I'm happy for there to be a statue here of Churchill.
如果有人想的话，我也
If anybody's What I would also
只是想说一下。
just wanna say this.
如果《每日邮报》的任何人正在听，汤姆·霍兰德无法撰写。
If anyone's listening to this from the Daily Mail, Tom Holland is not available to write.
是的。
Yeah.
但是有个但是。
But there's a but.
多米尼克，多米尼克。
Dominic, Dominic.
多米尼克。
Dominic.
但是有个问题，那就是一般来说，我总觉得这种阶级……我快被逮捕了。
There's a there's a but, which is that in general, I I find the this kind of class oh, I'm about to be arrested.
真遗憾你感到抱歉。
What a shame that you're being sorry.
是的。
Yeah.
我快要被逮捕了。
I'm about
被逮捕了。
to be arrested.
我不喜欢这种由各种政治和人性原因构成的混乱局面。
I don't like this kind of galaxy of of of political human reasons.
哦，我喜欢这个。
Oh, I love this.
我喜欢一个万神殿。
I love a pantheon.
不。
No.
我不喜欢。
I don't.
因为说实话，我很高兴丘吉尔在这里。
Because because to be honest, I I'm happy for Churchill to be here.
你看，我会带着我儿子来这里散步，然后说，那就是他。
See, I would come here with my son and walk around and say, he's him.
这是某某人。
This is so and so.
这是一个非常有教育意义的广场。
This is a great educative square.
这是空间。
This is space.
所以这是议会广场。
So this is Parliament Square.
是的。
Yeah.
从某种意义上说，这是对我们民主制度的一种象征性呈现。
So in a sense, this is the kind of figurative representation of our democracy.
是的
Yeah.
所以这里是谁非常重要。
So it matters hugely who is here.
这正是你这里有丘吉尔的原因，因为他曾在二战中保卫了英国民主。
Well, that's why you have Churchill because he defended British democracy in
1940年，他在战斗中力挽狂澜。
1940 when he in battle.
如果我们必须立雕像，丘吉尔在这里是理所应当的。
For Churchill to be here if we have to have statues.
是的
Yeah.
但我确实认为，在议会广场上，我们更应该像对待战争纪念碑一样对待它。
But I do think that there is a case for saying in Parliament Square that we rather as with the Cenotaph
是的
Yeah.
它象征着战争中的阵亡者，不涉及任何将军，也不涉及任何代表参战士兵的典型人物，正因如此，它才显得更加动人。
Which symbolizes the war dead without reference to generals, without reference to even to to kind of representative figures of of the soldiers who fought in the war, and I think, therefore, is all the more moving for it.
我认为，这里可以以某种方式唤起英国民主的传统，而无需依赖一个巨大的石制投票箱。
I think that there would be a way of summoning up the traditions of of British democracy here that didn't rely A massive stone hugely ballot box.
这就是你想要的吗？
Is that what you want?
嗯，我不是雕塑家。
Well, I'm not I'm not a sculptor.
所以，你知道，我……
So I I, you know, I
我认为国家需要英雄。
I think nations need heroes.
我认为民选的民主代表和任何其他人都一样好。
And I think elected democratic representatives are as
再好不过了。
good as any.
但政客，按其定义，本来就不是英雄，而是天生具有分裂性的人物。
But but politicians, by their definition, kind of aren't heroes and are, by definition, divisive figure.
当然。
Of course.
所以，如果丘吉尔——那个拯救了国家的人，那个确实——
So if Churchill, who who saved the country, who who Yeah.
为击败法西斯做出的贡献与任何人一样多，却仍是一个有争议的人物，那么其他人也是如此。
Did as much as anyone to defeat fascism is a is a controversial figure, then so is everyone else.
所以我们现在站在一个男人面前，我知道你曾说过——
So we're now standing in front of a man who who I know you you have you have said That's
我就是这个意思。
I'm saying.
但关于丘吉尔，这一点很重要。
But that's one point about Churchill.
丘吉尔是具有分裂性的。
Churchill was divisive.
他1965年去世时，他昔日的政治死敌，比如克莱门特·艾德礼，称他是一位伟人。
When he died in 1965, his former sworn political adversaries, so people like Clement Attlee, said he was a great man.
艾德礼说：当然。
Attlee said Sure.
你是我们这个时代伟大而杰出的人物。
You're the great distinguished man of our time.
没有人反对为他立雕像。
Nobody opposed his statue.
没有人反对为他举行国葬。
Nobody opposed his state funeral.
所以我认为
So I think
他们现在确实这么做了，不是吗？
they do now, don't they?
他们现在确实这么做了。
They do now.
这正是重点。
And that's the point.
是的。
Yeah.
但对于
But for
这正是重点。
That's the point.
他现在已经成为一个有争议的人物。
It's that he's now become a divisive figure.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Right.
我不想发火。
I'm I'm I don't wanna get cross.
所以我可能会哭起来，那只会更糟。
So I'm gonna start crying, which would be which would be worse.
所以
So
但现在我们面对的是大卫·劳合·乔治，我知道你绝对明白。
But we're now in front of David Lloyd George, who I know you you Absolutely.
你本质上是想取消的。
You were essentially wanting to cancel.
是的。
Yeah.
这雕像太糟糕了。
Mean, it's a terrible statue.
它看起来像一根正在融化的冰棒。
It's a it's a It looks like a melting ice lolly.
这是2007年的作品。
It's from 2007.
他披着斗篷，就像在表演一场盛大的是的。
He's got his cloak like he's doing an enormous great Yeah.
放屁。
Breaking wind.
这效果太震撼了。
It's a tremendous effect.
他身后披着一件飘动的斗篷。
He's got this sort of billowing cloak behind him.
他戴着领结，对吧？
He's wearing a bow tie, isn't he?
所以，劳合·乔治，支持他的观点是，你知道的，他是自由派改革者、财政大臣，福利国家的奠基人之一，最终还是所谓的一战胜利者。
So Lloyd George, I suppose, the argument for him is, you know, liberal reforming liberal chancellor, one of the founding fathers of the welfare state, ultimately, the man who won the war, so called, in World War one.
反对他的观点是，他极其腐败，甚至按二十一世纪的标准来看也是如此。
The argument against him is unbelievably corrupt, even by twenty first century standards.
你知道的，卖爵位换钱，背后捅所有同事一刀。
You know, flogged peerages for money, stabbed all his colleagues in their back.
他和儿媳有染吗？
And did he get off with his daughter-in-law?
他是一个可憎的好色之徒，连自己儿子都戴了绿帽，我认为无论在哪个时代，这都相当恶劣。
A hideous womanizer, cuckolded his own son, which I think is pretty bad form at any moment in history.
我认为历史上从未有过这样的时期，人们会认为他根本不可信，尤其在女性面前。
I don't think there's ever been a time when that's and, been regarded as yeah, sort of just couldn't be trusted around women.
我的意思是，在#MeToo时代，对我来说，劳合·乔治其实相当不堪。
I mean, in a me too age, to me Lloyd George is a bit vulnerable actually.
现在这会惹怒我们的威尔士听众，因为我认为他是我们这三期播客中唯一一位威尔士人，而他们肯定会支持他。
Now, will raise hackles among our Welsh listeners because he's the only Welshman I think we've had in these three podcasts, and they would want him.
但当然，自由党人把他视为伟大的自由党英雄。
But and of course, Liberals, he's a great Liberal hero.
问题是，我认为论点要么是你要包容所有人，这实际上就是我们现在的情况。
Well, the thing is, I think I think the argument is either you have you have everybody, which is a sec effectively what we've got.
是的。
Yeah.
那么在这种情况下，不要取消任何一个。
So in which case, don't cancel any of them.
我其实不会取消他。
I wouldn't really cancel him.
或者把他们全部都去掉。
Or or get rid of the lot.
不过，说了这么多，汤姆。
Now well, all that said, Tom.
我说过，我其实不会取消他。
I said I wouldn't really cancel him.
现在我们来谈一位非常、非常、非常有趣的候选人。
And now we're on to a a very, very, very interesting candidate.
这位是我们现在要讨论的扬·克里斯蒂安·斯穆茨。
So this is somebody we're now in front of Jan Christian Smuts.
1870年至1950年。
1870 to 1950.
这是一个非常有趣的人物，大多数来到这个广场的游客都不会认出他的名字，也不知道他为什么在这里。
So this is a fascinating one that most visitors to this square will not recognize the name, and they won't know why he's here.
他是一位布尔战争时期的将军，曾与英国作战，后来与英国和解。
He's a Boer War general who fought against the British, then is kind of reconciled to Britain.
他在第一次世界大战中参战，并在第二次世界大战期间担任南非总理。
He fights in World War one, and he is the South African prime minister during World War two.
我相信，听过我们姊妹播客的人——我们之前讨论过第二次世界大战——会知道，当时曾有应急计划：如果丘吉尔在二战中去世，斯姆茨将接任英国首相。
And I'm sure that people who listen to our sister podcast, we have ways about the Second World War will know that there were contingency plans that if Churchill died in World War two, Smuts would become prime minister of The United Kingdom.
因此，在他那个时代，他是一个举足轻重的人物，但现在至少在英国已经被人渐渐遗忘了。
So, the and and his day, a colossal figure, now kind of forgotten in Britain at least.
但当然，因为他是一位白人南非人，身上背负着历史包袱。
But, of course, because he was a white South African, there is baggage.
我的意思是，他并不是完全支持种族隔离制度。
I mean, he wasn't, you know, fully pro apartheid.
他并未参与种族隔离政权，但他支持种族隔离。
He wasn't part of the apartheid regime, but he was pro segregation.
他对种族问题的看法在今天看来是令人难以接受的。
And he had views about race that would be unpalatable to us now.
所以，如果你要玩‘保留还是取消’这个游戏，他确实非常容易成为目标。
So actually, if you're gonna do the keep and cancel game, he is very vulnerable.
你觉得呢？
Do you know what think?
事实上，他是这里众多非英国人物雕像中的一位。
Well, so he he is one of a number of statues here that that aren't British.
是的。
Yes.
我认为这有问题，因为我确实觉得这是一种帝国遗留问题。
I think there's an issue with that, because I actually think it's a kind of imperial hangover.
当然，在他这个案例中确实如此。
Of course, it is in his case.
对。
Yeah.
但我认为我们最终会谈到甘地和曼德拉的雕像。
But I I think we're we're gonna come to the statue of Gandhi and of of Mandela as well.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为，从某种意义上说，人们可能会说，我们是在尊重他们所代表的传统。
I think in a sense, may say, well, you know, we're paying respect to the traditions that they represent.
但另一方面，我们也在某种程度上挪用了他们。
But in a way, we're also kind of appropriating them.
这就像我们在对待他们时，仿佛他们仍然是大英帝国的臣民。
And it's like we're we're we're treating them as though they're still, you know, subjects of the British empire
这是全球性英国的一部分，是的。
part of a global British Yes.
我知道。
I know.
但是但是
But but
所以，本质上，这是一个非常具有帝国色彩的空间。
so so essentially, this this is a very, imperial space.
是的。
Yeah.
正是如此，不仅因为我们这里有斯穆茨，还因为我们有曼德拉和甘地。
Precisely, not just because we've got Smuts here, but because we've got Mandela and Gandhi as well.
同意。
Agreed.
而且我
And I
我觉得我们是在挪用印度和南非的伟大人物。
I think I So I think we're we're appropriating, you know, the great figures of of India and and of South Africa.
嗯，他们曾经是
Well, they were part
我的意思是，斯穆茨也是英国历史的一部分。
I mean, Smuts was part of Britain's story.
所以斯穆茨，我同意。
So Smuts I agree.
所以曼德拉和甘地则略有不同。
So Mandela and Gan is slightly different.
但斯穆茨的雕像也很古老，因为他看起来像是在滑冰。
But but the Smuts I mean, also, it's a very old statue because he looks like he's ice skating.
确实如此。
He does.
他双手背在身后。
He's got his hands behind his back.
是的。
Yeah.
他就像在滑行一样。
It's like he's kind of gliding across
眼睛。
the eyes.
大步向前。
Striding forth.
现在，我最喜欢的历史人物之一，我们在播客里聊过他。
Now, one of my favorite historical characters, we've talked about him in the podcast.
总理世界杯。
The World Cup of Prime Ministers.
世界杯。
The World Cup
总理世界杯。
of Prime Ministers.
他是帕默斯顿子爵。
He's Viscount Palmerston.
是的。
Yes.
据说，尽管可能只是传闻，他在80岁时在台球桌上与一名女仆在一起时去世。
Supposedly, though apocryphally, I think, died while deflowering a maid on a billiard table at the age of 80.
是的。
Yes.
你哥哥会
Your brother would
称之为炮舰外交。
call Gunboat diplomacy.
你哥哥会称他为一个壮汉。
What your brother would call a massive lad.
我认为这样说公平。
I think it's fair to say.
炮舰外交，打击外国人。
Gunboat diplomacy, smiting foreigners.
他实际上是个废奴主义者。
He he was an he was an abolitionist, actually.
所以奴隶制是衡量标准。
So slavery is the yardstick.
他有
He's got
他拥有社会。
He's got society.
他加分了，但他也有减分，因为他想支持美利坚联盟国，因为他憎恨美国。
Bonus points, but then he's got debits because he wanted to support the Confederacy because he hated America.
所以他觉得这是我们打击美国的方式，所以我们应该支持南方联盟。
So he thought this is our way to smash America, so we should have supported the Confederacy.
他是维多利亚时代帝国主义者的典范。
He's He he's the model of a Victorian Imperialist.
帝国主义者。
Imperialist.
是的。
Yeah.
他确实是。
He is.
他是个毫不掩饰的。
He's a he's an unashamed.
如果他现在在这里，我的意思是，他肯定会，你知道的，站在
If he were here now, I mean, he would he would absolutely, you know, be on
但但但再次强调，我们要应用的标准实际上一直 inconsistently 地被应用。
But but but again, to to to apply the standard that we we have actually rather inconsistently been applied.
非常有趣。
Very interesting.
你可以说，这些雕像，你知道的，是历史的画廊。
You could say that statues are, you know, a gallery of history.
这是一种通向剑的博物馆。
It's a it's a kind of madame to swords
嗯，议会广场就是这样。
in Well, that's what Parliament Square is.
我的意思是，我们周围是一排排的，你知道的，如果你能跑过去
I mean, we're surrounded by a line of you know, if you can just run
我的论点在这里东拉西扯，
by My argument is veering all over the place here like
是的。
a Yeah.
我明白了。
I see.
我喜欢帕尔默斯顿。
I I like Palmerston.
我喜欢他就在那儿这个事实。
I like the fact he's there.
我觉得这是维多利亚时代的历史。
I think it's a bit of Victorian history.
这是一座英姿飒爽的雕像。
It's a dashing statue.
这是一座非常好的雕像，不是吗？
It's a very good statue, isn't it?
是的
Yeah.
他看起来就像一位典型的维多利亚时代政治家。
He looks He looks like a classic Victorian statesman.
确实如此。
He does.
下一个人也是。
As does the next person.
这个人是谁？
Who is this?
德比伯爵。
The Earl of Derby.
哦，大家都喜欢德比伯爵
Oh, everyone loves the Earl
德比伯爵。
of Derby.
德比大赛。
The derby.
实际上很刻薄。
Mean, actually
没人愿意来。
Nobody wants to come.
这全是
It's all
德比伯爵。
the Earl of Derby.
我要穿过这里的人群。
I'm gonna fight through these crowds here.
所以我想
So I guess
一群朝圣者正在鞠躬致敬。
Crowds of pilgrims, like, are genuflecting.
很多
A lot of
许多外国游客表示，他们专程前来观看，而在下议院1833年的底部有一幅精美的浮雕。
foreign tourists said they come specifically to look at the and and there's a lovely relief at the bottom of House of Commons 1833.
还有另一个
There's the other
德比在议事桌前忙碌着。
Derby doing his stuff at the dispatch box.
他曾担任保守党领袖长达二十二年。
So he was a Tory leader for twenty two years.
他三次出任首相，但每次任期似乎都只有大约一周左右。
He was prime minister three times, but I think sort of a period of about a week on each occasion.
有点夸张了。
Exaggerating.
这是他担任牛津大学校长时的样子。
Here he is as the chancellor of the University of Oxford.
看，这人真了不起。
See, what a man.
这人真了不起。
What a man.
在另一边，他是中央执行委员会，应对棉荒
On the other side, he's the central executive cotton famine
救济委员会。
Relief committee.
委员会。
Committee.
哦，真善良。
Oh, kind.
以及1867年的内阁委员会。
And cabinet council eighteen sixty seven.
所以，又是个了不起的人物。
So, again, a massive lad.
所以，迪斯雷利在1874年提出了这个。
So, Disraeli put this up, 1874.
你知道迪斯雷利说了什么吗？
You know what Disraeli said?
不知道。
No.
我们竖立这座雕像给他，不仅是为了纪念，更是为了树立榜样，不仅是为了缅怀，更是为了激励。
We have raised this statue to him not only as a memorial, but as an example, not merely to commemorate, but to inspire.
所以这就是为什么有大批外国游客。
So that's why there are crowds of foreign tourists
是的。
Yeah.
他们来此是为了受到启发。
They've come to be inspired.
在他面前虔诚地跪拜。
Genuflecting before him.
现在，我认为我们的制片人托尼在这三集中一直跟我唠叨关于相关性的问题。
Now, I think our producer, Tony, has been haranguing me throughout these three episodes about relevance.
我觉得德比伯爵对我来说很难辩护，因为无论他的成就如何，无论他在19世纪的政治重要性如何，如果以相关性作为衡量标准——我绝对不认为这应该是标准——但假如真是这样，那另一张牌对谁都没有意义。
And I think the Earl of Derby is a hard one for me to justify because whatever his achievements, whatever his political importance in the nineteenth century, if relevance is yours is your yardstick, which I absolutely don't think it should be, but if it is, the other card is relevant to nobody.
他确实与
He does have to the
德比市？
city of Derby?
是的。
Yeah.
我不知道他是否对德比这个地方有什么特别的感情。
I don't know that he had any great, you know, affection for Derby as a place.
但他并不是在为德比辩护
But he's so he's not he's not batting for Derby
直到我死。
till I die.
有点吧。
Kind of.
不。
No.
他想到的是布莱恩·克拉夫。
He thinks of Brian Clough.
是的。
Yeah.
抱歉。
Sorry.
这个梗对一些不懂足球的英国人来说可能听不懂。
That's a reference to be lost on some of our non football fancy Englishness.
总之，是的。
Anyway, yeah.
他留着漂亮的胡子。
He's got great whiskers.
所以，是的。
So Yeah.
他留着很棒的胡子。
He does a great whiskers.
他留着山羊胡。
He's got the mutton chop.
他留着
He's got
山羊胡。
the the mutton chop.
山羊胡，他不适合
Mutton He's not for
理发师，显然。
the barbers, obviously.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
现在，我们来谈谈一个更进步的，汤姆。
Now, now we've got to a more progressive one, Tom.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们已经为所有男性都做了，除了你的布狄卡。
So we've all we've done all men except for your Boudica.
不过她上次是吧？
Although she was last time, wasn't she?
我其实已经搞混了。
I've actually lost track.
这次散步已经持续太久了。
This walk has been going on for so long.
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这是非常近期的雕像。
Very recent statue.
你想跟我们讲讲它吗？
Do you wanna tell us about it?
这是米利森特·福塞特，伟大的女权运动领袖，雕像于2018年竖立，对吧？
So this is Millicent Forsett, the great suffragette leader, which went up 2018, was it?
2019年？
2019?
经过了漫长的运动。
After a lengthy campaign.
2018年。
2018.
你说得对。
You're right.
我刚才在看我的笔记。
I was just looking at my notes.
2018年。
2018.
卡罗琳，卡罗琳。
Caroline Caroline.
卡罗琳。
Caroline.
是的。
Yep.
我觉得这很棒。
And I think it's I think it's great.
赞成的请举手。
All in favor of that.
不过，你知道吗？
Although, you know what?
《卫报》曾刊登专栏文章说她不该有雕像。
The Guardian ran columns saying she shouldn't have a statue.
他们说她不是一个激进的妇女参政论者。
They said she wasn't a radical suffragette.
他们的侧面确实有照片展示。
They do have pictures all around the side.
你看，这正是我喜欢它的原因。
Well, you see that's you see that's why I like it.
这是因为，你知道，认为个人能够代表整个运动的观点，确实会过度聚焦于个人。
It's it's because one of, you know, kinda saying that one of the problems with the argument that individuals can sum up entire movements is that, you know, it does very much focus attention on the individual.
是的。
Yeah.
但这里他们展示了人们的照片，主要是女性，但并非 exclusively。
But here they've got photographs of people, mostly women, but not not exclusively.
没错。
No.
那些为反对运动做出贡献的人。
Who contributed to the No.
我觉得她们都是女性。
Think they're all women.
我也这么认为。
I think so.
那个男人是谁？
Who's who's the man there?
有个男士。
There's a chap.
乔治·兰斯伯里。
George Lansbury.
好的。
Okay.
所以确实有个男人。
So there is a man.
工党领袖？
Leader of the Labour Party?
是的
Yeah.
我们有几位男士。
We've a couple of men.
他们有那个粉色的，所以我认为汤姆只是对纪念碑上的那位女士不太友善，但其实不是。
They've the pink They so they're the more I thought Tom was just being disobliging about the the woman on the memorial, but no.
而且上面有这段话。
And it has this message.
她实际上正拿着一面旗帜，我想。
She's actually carrying, you know, this flag, I guess.
勇气处处呼唤勇气。
Courage calls to courage everywhere.
非常棒。
Very nice.
非常感人。
Very moving.
我觉得这确实是一件很棒的公共艺术作品。
I think actually it's a lovely bit of public art.
确实是。
It is.
还有她裙子的布料，你可以
And the the fabric of her dress, you can
几乎总是能触碰到它。
almost You can always touch it.
总是能触碰到它。
You can always touch it.
可以摸到它。
You can touch it.
事实上，我正要
In fact, I'm
去摸一下。
going to.
但是汤姆，你知道吗？
But Tom, do you know what?
瞧好了。
There you go.
是的。
Yep.
她，再次强调，是每个人都可以取消的对象。
She, again, is everybody's cancellable.
她强烈反对给予爱尔兰自治。
She was opposed to very violently opposed to home rule for Ireland.
他因为自治问题离开了自由党，加入了自由统一党。
He left the Liberal Party over the issue of home rule to join the Liberal Unionists.
所以，你知道的，来自都柏林的游客，她不会是他们的第一站。
So, you know, visitors from Dublin, she's not gonna be first stop on their list.
而且，这进一步印证了这一点：他们没有一个是圣人。
And and suppose that reinforces the point that everybody that none of them are saints.
如果你参与这种取消文化，你总能找到任何历史人物的把柄。
That if you are in this sort of cancellation game, you can find a reason for any historical character.
说到没人是圣人，我们下一个要讲的是本杰明·迪斯雷利。
And talking of no one being saints, our next one is Benjamin Disraeli.
本杰明·迪斯雷利。
Benjamin Disraeli.
迪兹。
Dizzy.
维多利亚时代的鲍里斯·约翰逊。
Boris Johnson of the Victorian world.
是的。
Yeah.
迪斯雷利是个极端的帝国主义者。
Mean, Dizzy is the ultimate imperialist.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，他让维多利亚女王成为了印度女皇。
I mean, he's the man who made Queen Victoria Empress of India.
他是个迷人的骗子，不是吗？
He's a charming shyster, isn't he?
他是个江湖骗子。
He's a mountebank.
他是个江湖骗子。
He's a mountebank.
他是个迷人的骗子。
He's a charming shyster.
他和帕尔默斯顿就像是两个鲍里斯。
He and Palmerston are kind Boris Boris figures.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，但他在这里并不晕头转向。
I mean But he's but here he's not dizzy.
他并没有松散。
He's not disraveled.
他是本杰明·迪斯雷利。
He's Beckonsfield.
是的。
Yeah.
他取得的另一个头衔。
The other title he took.
是的。
Yeah.
因为他全然投入热情，而且他
Because he's all about the passion And he
看起来非常严肃。
looks very serious.
他看起来很有政治家风范。
He looks statesman like.
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
He does.
是的。
Yeah.
为什么格莱斯顿没来？
Why is Gladstone not here?
这是个非常好的问题，但我也不知道答案。
That is an excellent question to which I don't know the answer.
也许是因为格莱斯顿那种……你知道的，他是个伟大的平民，诸如此类。
Maybe Gladstone because of his sort of, you know, he's a great commoner and all that sort of stuff.
但你觉得如果以色列人来了，格莱斯顿也应该来吗？
But you feel if the Israeli's here, then Gladstone should be here as well?
是的。
Yeah.
因为否则的话会显得
Because otherwise it makes
当然，保守党在早期的德比中也有不错的表现。
The Tories have got a good run with the early Derby as well, of course.
是的。
Yeah.
下注者最看好的。
The punter's favorite.
而且也没有工党。
And also there isn't a Labour.
没有。
No.
没有。
No.
不。
No.
所以，我认为这是个缺失。
So again, think that's a lack.
所以我们应该多立一些雕像，这
So we should put up more statues, which is
我认为我们应该为阿特勒立一座雕像。
I think we should have a statue of Atlet.
我认为我们应该为格莱斯顿立一座雕像。
I think we should have a statue of Gladstone.
我们应该为吉姆·卡拉汉立一座雕像吗？
Should we have a statue of Jim Callahan?
当然。
Definitely.
我觉得差不多就是这个意思。
I think it's around that note.
我告诉你我们该做什么。
I tell you what we should have.
我们应该休息一下。
Should have a break.
是的。
Yeah.
我们确实应该。
We should.
所以休息结束后我们再继续，还应该看看更多、更多的雕像。
So we shall reconvene after the break, and we should be looking at more, yet more statues.
再见。
Goodbye.
雕像。
Statues.
我们已经有了。
We've got them.
你好。
Hello.
欢迎回到《雕像节》，这是我们伦敦中部巡游的第三集。
Welcome back to the Statue Fest that is the third episode of our tour of Central London.
我们现在位于议会广场，站在另一座雕像前，这位人物曾是大英帝国的臣民，是的。
We're in Parliament Square, and we are now standing in front of another statue, someone who was a subject of the British Empire Yes.
但他却是另一个国家的象征——圣雄甘地。
But is an icon of another country, Mahatma Gandhi.
圣雄甘地。
Mahatma Gandhi.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
正如丘吉尔所称，一个赤身裸体的苦行僧。
A half naked Fakir, as Churchill called him.
我之前说过，我认为这是一种文化挪用。
So I was saying earlier that I think that this is an act of cultural appropriation.
但甘地的存在难道不是对帝国的一种反思吗？
But Gandhi is a kind of reckoning with empire, isn't he?
确实是。
He is.
他的雕像就在那里。
The fact that his statue is there.
这座雕像建于2015年。
So, it went up in 2015.
但表面上看，它确实如此。
But that's ostensibly what it is.
是的。
Yeah.
但我认为，它无形中也在提醒人们英国帝国的历史。
But I think it's kind of implicitly serving as a reminder of the British empire.
有个盒子在吃它。
Having a case eating it.
嗯，这其实是一种帝国主义的、后帝国主义的道德观。
Well, it's it's it's a it's it's a kind of imperial it's a kind of post imperial morality.
所以它客观上是在说我们反对帝国。
So it's it's objectively saying we're against the empire.
但你看，我们身处昔日帝国首都的中心。
But, hey, look, you know, we're in the center of what was the imperial capital.
而且我们仍然
And we're still
我觉得这有点苛刻。
think that's a bit harsh.
我觉得他其实是以圣人的身份被立在这里的。
I think it's I I think he's there as a saint, actually.
他是印度的圣人。
He's India's saint.
他不属于我们。
He's not ours.
是的。
Yeah.
但我觉得这是一个很好的说法。
But you you I think it's a good statement
英国有一座甘地的雕像。
that Britain has a statue of Gandhi.
对于一些不了解的听众，我用十五秒简单介绍一下甘地的一生。
For some of the for listeners who don't know, us a quick praising of Gandhi's life in fifteen seconds.
我想甘地，他其实是一位去伦敦学习法律的印度人。
So I suppose Gandhi I mean, he's he's an Indian who comes to study law actually in London.
是的。
Yeah.
从这个意义上说，他去了伦敦，也许在这一点上，他值得在这里拥有一座雕像。
So in that sense, he could to London, and so perhaps on that level, he he deserves a statue here.
他去了南非。
He he goes to South Africa.
他回到了印度。
He goes back to India.
他领导了反对英国殖民统治的独立斗争，亲眼见证了独立，随后被一名印度教民族主义者枪杀身亡。
He leads the the fight for independence from the British Raj, gets to see independence, and then gets shot by a Hindu nationalist and and and die.
所以他是一个英雄式的人物。
So a kind of heroic figure.
但和史末资一样，他也是英国故事的一部分。
But as with Smuts, he's part of the British story.
他是这个故事的一部分。
He's part
属于那个故事。
of that story.
他，是的。
He he yes.
他是的。
He he is.
但我觉得他在那里的存在，我不确定。
But I think his existence here I don't know.
这感觉有点像是我们在把他当作自己的人。
It just kind of slightly feels like we are kind of claiming him as our own.
我不觉得我们真的有这个权利，我确实没有。
I don't And we don't really have the right to I do don't
我同意这一点。
agree with that.
我觉得你基本上是在说，这个广场上应该充满所谓进步人士眼中的坏人。
I think you're basically saying that the square should be full of what kind of progressive people would call baddies.
而你
And you
我根本不是这个意思。
not can't saying that at all.
我根本不是这个意思。
I'm not saying that at all.
我的意思是，我认为把甘地、曼德拉请到议会广场中央，这种做法无形中是在说，这些人物某种程度上是英国的象征。
What I'm saying is that I think that there is a sense in which appropriating Gandhi, appropriating Mandela, and putting them in in the middle of Parliament Square is saying that, you know, these are kind of British figures.
我觉得这根本不是这个意思。
I don't think it's saying that at all.
我觉得这其实是
I think it's
我说的是，我知道。
saying I that know.
客观来说，这并不属于那一类。
Objectively, that's not part that.
我知道这并不是初衷。
And I know that's not the rationale.
因为我认为这里隐含着一种道德优越感。
Because I think that that there is a kind of implicit assumption of moral superiority here.
所以我经常想，当你带一群孩子来这里，比如小学生，这个雕像往往是他们驻足观看的之一，即使他们不知道背后的故事，也会被这位穿着长袍之类服饰的人物所吸引。
So I often think I often think these things, you know, you bring a load of kids here, primary school children or something, and this is a statue that a lot of them will stop at, even if they don't know the story, because they'll be intrigued by the figure, you know, who's who's in his kind of robes and stuff.
而且它显然与所有其他雕像都大不相同。
And and it's so obviously so different from all the others.
而且这简直是个绝佳的——我的意思是，至少它是一个极好的教育空间。
And it's a great I mean, it's actually, if nothing else, it's a great educative space.
我的意思是，你可以讲述这个故事。
I mean, you can tell the story.
我想，有趣的是，是的。
I suppose also what's interesting about Yeah.
而且你看，如果仔细观察两座雕像的左臂，它们几乎一模一样。
It And and look at and and if you look at the left arm of both statues, they're almost identical.
是的。
Yeah.
所以迪斯雷利穿着贵族的长袍，而甘地穿的则是那种粗糙的自制衣物，不是吗
So Disraeli has the robes of a peer of the realm, and Gandhi has the kind of the rough home spun of Well, isn't
这难道不是一个美好的画面吗？
that a lovely image?
我的意思是，现在，就在背后，这一切不都是关于帝国吗？
I mean, now, just behind I mean, so much of this is about empire, isn't it?
还有关于种族以及诸如此类的问题。
And about race and all these kinds of things.
就在甘地肩膀后方的远处，是亚伯拉罕·林肯。
And just over Gandhi's shoulder is in the distance is Abraham Lincoln.
而亚伯拉罕·林肯，我想，他几乎也是同一个故事的一部分，因为这关乎黑白之间的正义。
And Abraham Lincoln, I suppose, is he's almost part of the same story to the extent that it's about justice between sort of black and white.
这就是为什么林肯在这里，我的意思是，他之所以在这里是因为他……
That's why link I mean, Lincoln is there because he's
但我认为他是美国最伟大的总统。
But I think it's he's America's greatest president.
这也关乎英语民族，不是吗？
It's also about kind of English speaking peoples, isn't it?
我的意思是
I mean,
这有点像是把林肯据为己有。
it goes kind of claiming it Lincoln for our for our own.
我只是觉得，我完全不同意。
I just I think I just think that it's it's I utterly disagree
我不同意。
with that.
我坚决反对这种说法。
Utterly refute this.
所以
So
林肯。
the Lincoln.
对吧？
Right?
林肯像是一份礼物。
The Lincoln is a gift.
林肯像是美国赠送的礼物。
The Lincoln is a gift from America.
像华盛顿那样吗？
Like the Washington?
不是。
No.
它是由劳合·乔治揭幕的。
And it was unveiled by Lloyd George.
所以它在另一边。
So it's on the other side.
它在车流上方，我懒得走那么远过去。
It's over the traffic, so I can't be bothered to walk all the way over there.
但你在议会广场里面就能看到它。
But you can see it from within Parliament Square.
它是在1920年第一次世界大战结束时，由广场上的另一位人物劳合·乔治揭幕的。
It was unveiled by one of the other people in this square, Lloyd George, in 1920 at the end of the first world war.
当然，现在美国的一些林肯雕像已经被移除了。
But of course, Lincoln statues, some of Lincoln statues have been taken down in America now.
因为林肯虽然以废奴主义者著称，并在美国内战中领导北方，但他并不认为白人和黑人能够真正平等。
Because Lincoln famously, although he was an abolitionist and he led the North during the American civil war, he didn't believe that white and black people could ever be equal.
他认为种族差异将永远存在，白人种族应始终处于优越地位。
He argued that there will always be differences and the white race should always be superior.
因此，以二十一世纪的标准来看，对一些人而言，林肯站在了历史的错误一边。
So, by twenty first century to some people, by twenty first century standards, Lincoln is Counseling.
站在了历史的错误一边。
On the wrong side of history.
这在我看来简直令人震惊——毕竟，正是这个人发布了《解放奴隶宣言》，在美国内战结束时解放了奴隶，但事实就是如此。
Which seems an extraordinary thing to me to say about the man who emancipated slaves in the Emancipation Proclamation at the end of the American Civil War, but but there you go.
你会保留林肯的雕像，对吧，汤姆？
You'd keep Lincoln, wouldn't you, Tom?
我告诉你，我们已经把他据为己有了。
Tell you that we've appropriated him.
他是一份礼物。
He's a present.
他是一份馈赠。
He's a gift.
是的。
Yeah.
我想是吧。
I suppose.
我对此没什么强烈感受，但我
I don't feel strongly about it either way, but I
现在，我们又得挤过一群群游客才能看到下一个。
I'm Now again, we have to fight our way past hordes of tourists for this next one.
嗯，我们已经看了很多
Well, we've had a lot
有警车经过，对吧？
of police cars going by, haven't we?
是的。
Yeah.
归根结底，这都是这个人的错。
And basically, that's this man's fault.
罗伯特·皮尔。
Robert Peel.
罗伯特·皮尔，警察制度的创始人。
Robert Peel, founder of the police.
是的。
Yeah.
塔姆沃思最引以为傲的人物。
Tamworth's most pride of Tamworth.
是的。
Yeah.
塔姆沃思的骄傲。
The pride of Tamworth.
被称为
Called the
塔姆沃思的皮尔雕像，还有麦西亚的女领主埃塞尔弗莱德，英格兰的奠基之母，我
statue of of Peel in Tamworth along with Aethelfland, Lady of the Mercians, the founding mother of England, who I
你一定想在这里看看。
You would like to see here.
我想
I'd like
看到
to see
在这里。
here.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
容忍罗伯特·皮尔。
Tolerate Robert Peel.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，是的，罗伯特·皮尔是一位杰出的十九世纪早期首相。
I mean, yeah, Robert Peel is a great early early nineteenth century prime minister.
影响深远。
Very consequential.
废除了《谷物法》。
Repeals the Corn Laws.
制作人显得怀疑，因为他的相关性、论点，你知道，不是。
The producer's looking skeptical because of his relevance, arguments, and you know No.
他是个重要人物，但他确实
He's an important figure, but I He's mean he's quite
托尼，托尼，就是那个制作人，你知道的，他是我那种普通人，我们请他上播客，代表国民的声音。
Tony Tony the producer who is the, you know, he's he's my sort of common man that I that we bring on the podcast to be the the voice of the nation.
那纳尔逊·曼德拉呢？
He's not What about Nelson Mandela?
我其实觉得这样说太糟糕了，我的意思是，这话说得真不好。
I actually think this is a terrible I mean, is an awful thing to say.
我其实觉得这尊雕像很糟糕。
I actually think it's a bad statue.
你为什么觉得这尊雕像不好？
Why do you think it's a bad statue?
因为看起来不像他。
Because it doesn't look like him.
我觉得他长得挺像的。
I think that he looks quite right.
我觉得他的腿有点太短了。
I think the legs are a bit too short.
我很喜欢这一点。
I quite like that.
纳尔逊·曼德拉的腿真的很短吗？
Did Nelson Mandela have very short legs?
你看，他这是在表现得友善。
Well, you see, he's being nice.
BC家的小女孩跑上去抱了他。
BC family, small girl's gone up and hugged him.
抱了他。
Hugged him.
这真好。
That's nice.
是的。
Yeah.
但我也不确定她是认出他是纳尔逊·曼德拉才抱他，还是只是因为
But I'm not sure if she's hugging because she knows he's Nelson Mandela or she's hugging him because it's
现在有个男孩也走过去加入了吗？
Now there's a boy going up to join?
我想，那一定有一部分原因。
Think I think there must be a part of that.
是的。
Yeah.
是格雷西的。
Gracie's.
他们不会对罗伯特·皮尔这样做。
They're not doing that to Robert Peel.
在我看来，罗伯特·皮尔出现在其中四个人身上。
My view, Robert Peel's on four of them.
他出现在一个巨大的盲点上。
He's on a massive blint.
罗伯特·皮尔就像一个六英尺高的盲点。
Robert Peel's like a six foot blint.
是的。
Yeah.
说得通。
Fair enough.
这构成了一个健康与安全风险。
That's a health and safety hazard.
我认为年轻的桑布鲁克肯定愿意冒着健康与安全的风险去
I think surely the youthful Sambrook would have risked health and safety to
抱住罗伯特·皮尔爵士的腿。
hug the legs of sir Robert Peele.
一种不行，多米尼克。
A kind No, Dominic.
下来吧。
Come down.
关于埃莱塔里。
About the Eletari.
妈妈。
Mama.
妈妈。
Mama.
我必须抱一抱。
I must hug.
我必须抱一抱。
I must hug.
必须抱一抱，罗伯特·皮尔爵士。
Must hug, sir Robert Peel.
好吧，总之，纳尔逊来了。
Well, anyway, Nelson's here.
现在，我想，汤姆，这就是你打算要的，
Now, I suppose, Tom, this is your that you're gonna,
你知道的，我已经说完了我想说的
you know Well, I've already said what I've gotta say
关于这件事。
about it.
是的。
Yeah.
我已经说过了
I've already said
我六十二期播客前就说过，但我并不因此怪你。
what I've 62 podcasts ago, but I don't hold that against you.
我有。
I have.
我有。
I have.
我的意思是，我不会，你知道，我觉得纳尔逊·曼德拉的雕像，还有非国大在伦敦——那里可以说是他们的第二个家，这很棒。
I mean, I wouldn't I you know, I think it's great that the statues of Nelson Mandela, you know, ANC had a London was kind of their second home.
对。
Yes.
确实是。
It was.
你知道，这至关重要。
You know, it's it's crucially important.
南岸有一座纳尔逊·曼德拉的半身像。
There's a statue of of the bust of of Nelson Mandela on the South Bank.
我觉得这很棒。
You know, think that's great.
我只是觉得，议会广场作为帝国首都的核心，感觉有点不太合适。
I just think that that Parliament Square, the hub of of of the imperial capital, I just I it just feels slightly sense.
我觉得这是一个很好的收尾故事，它完成了闭环。
I think it's a nice closing story to It closes the circle.
它让像迪斯雷利这样的人——也许——
It has the people people like, you know, Disraeli who were Maybe.
绝对代表了帝国，我的意思是，正是迪斯雷利给了维多利亚‘印度女皇’的头衔。
Absolutely emblematic of empire and create I mean, who it was Disraeli who gave Victoria the title, Empress of India.
然后我认为，从时间顺序上，你用甘地结束了这个故事
And then I think you chronologically, you closed the story with Gandhi
也许吧。
Maybe.
也许吧。
Maybe.
他为印度独立而奋斗。
Who fought for Indian independence.
曼德拉则致力于实现黑白之间的和解，以及一种后殖民时代的未来。
Mandela who came to, you know, to embody reconciliation between black and white and a kind of post colonial future.
不，多米尼克。
No, Dominic.
我觉得这是一个很好的故事。
I think that is a nice story.
好的。
Okay.
我接受你对这个问题的思考比我更深入。
I'm gonna accept that you've thought more deeply about this than I have.
制作人现在和我们在一起。
This is I I I'm the producers are here with us now.
请截取这段视频，作为特别单集播出。
Please excerpt this clip and put it as a special one off broadcast.
不行。
No.
我只是，嗯，是的。
I'm just I'm yeah.
我明白了。
I okay.
汤姆一直非常慷慨，但我必须说，汤姆也一直很绅士，在这三集中从未提及此事。
I'm I'm Tom has been very generous, but I have to say, Tom has also been very gentleman and not mentioned it throughout this these three episodes.
我一直在戴
I've been wearing
汤姆·赫兰德受益年上限。
A Tom Holland benefit year cap.
一款汤姆·赫兰德主题的棒球帽。
A Tom Holland themed baseball cap.
是的。
Yeah.
这已经
It's been
很棒。
great.
简直太丢人了，因为我忘了带，今天天气出奇地好，阳光明媚。
Absolutely humiliating because I forgot to bring it's very it's a beautiful sunny day unusually.
是的。
Yeah.
我担心会被晒伤，所以戴着一顶汤姆·赫兰德的帽子——等等，上面甚至还有你的脸，你的脸被设计成了狮子的脸。
I'm worried about getting sunburned, and so I'm wearing a Tom Holland I mean, it's even got your face on It's the Your face modeled as a lion's face.
它紧邻拉贾斯坦邦，我在那里为乌代浦尔王子投过球。
It's backed against Rajasthan, where I bowled the Prince of Udaipur.
所以这一切都是为了纪念这件事。
So that's what this is all commemorating.
很高兴你一直向
And it's wonderful that you've been broadcasting this to the
全国广播。
To the nation.
伦敦中部的民众。
The people of Central London.
我看到很多人
I've seen a lot of people
这真是遗憾。
It's shame that actually.
看到这顶帽子时，都难过地摇头。
And shaking their head sadly when they see the cap.
真遗憾这只有音频，否则对人们来说将会是一幅美妙的景象。
It's a shame that this is this is only audio because it would be a wonderful sight for people.
很多人过来跟我说：天啊，你一定很喜欢蜘蛛侠。
And lots of people come up to me and say, god, you must love Spider Man.
多米尼克，我真不敢相信你使了这么卑劣的招数。
Dominic, I I can't believe that you pulled that low trick.
就是戴帽子之后。
After the cap.
我的天啊。
I mean, come on.
好吧。
Okay.
我们已经逛了议会广场。
So we've done Parliament Square.
我们还需要看一下另外两座雕像。
There's two more statues that we do need to look at.
其中一个就是克伦威尔的雕像，我们在与保罗·莱合作的那期节目中提到过。
One of them is the statue of Cromwell, which we talked about when the episode with Paul Lay.
另一个是理查德一世的雕像。
The other is the statue of Richard the first.
所以我们接下来会谈到它们。
So we'll come to them.
但在那之前，是的。
But before we do that Yeah.
紧邻议会广场的是威斯敏斯特大教堂。
Standing next to Parliament Square, we've got Westminster Abbey.
是的。
Yeah.
我们已经聊了很多。
And we've talked a lot.
实际上，在我们的第一期播客中，我们就讨论过伟大与圣洁的理念。
Actually, our very first podcast, we were talking about ideas of greatness and then of saintliness.
我们确实谈过。
We were.
我们也谈过殉道者。
And we've talked about martyrs.
在威斯敏斯特大教堂正门上方，就有真正的殉道者雕像。
And there are literal martyrs above the great west door of Westminster Abbey.
所以我觉得我们应该去看看，因为我觉得它们与议会广场上那些世俗权力的象征形成了有趣的对比。
So I think we should go and have a look at them, because I think that they're a fascinating counterpoint to the array of kind of secular power that we get in Parliament Square.
到教会的鼓吹去了。
To the church mongering.
是的。
Yeah.
那我们过马路吧，去那里汇合。
So let's let's cross the road, and we'll we'll join there.
所以，汤姆，你把我带到了威斯敏斯特大教堂的正门前。
So, Tom, you've dragged me to the front of Westminster Abbey.
非常棒。
Very nice.
当然，这座修道院真美。
Of course, lovely Abbey.
但我想知道我为什么来这里。
But I want to know why I'm here.
你给我准备了什么？
What have you got for me?
好的。
Okay.
我们现在看的是西门上方，原本那里有空着的壁龛，原本打算放置圣经人物、圣经国王、圣徒之类的雕像。
So we're looking at the the west doorway and above the west doorway, there were vacant niches for presumably biblical figures or biblical kings or saints or whatever would have gone up.
但那些壁龛一直是空的。
And they were empty.
因此，在二十一世纪初，人们在那里安放了二十世纪为基督教信仰殉道者的雕像，这些人物来自世界各地。
So, beginning of the twenty first century, they put up statues of people who've been martyred for the Christian faith over the course of the twentieth century and they are of international scope.
我们刚才在议会广场讨论过，纪念活动具有国际性。
So we were just talking in Parliament Square about, you know, the international character of commemoration.
在这里，它完全是天主教的（小写的‘c’意义上的），也就是普世教会的体现。
Here it's absolutely Catholic in the, you know, small c sense, you kind of universal church.
所以中间那位是马丁·路德·金，他是其中之一。
So in the middle you have Martin Luther King is one of them.
还有奥斯卡·罗梅罗，他是萨尔瓦多的主教。
You've got Oscar Romero who was the officer of El Salvador.
他在主持弥撒时被枪杀。
He was shot celebrating mass.
左边那位留着胡子的是马克西米利安·科尔贝，一位波兰神父，我认为他在奥斯维辛集中营牺牲了自己。
You've got the guy with the beard on the left is Maximilian Colbey, who was a Polish priest who sacrificed himself, I think, in Auschwitz.
他死在了集中营里。
He died concentration camp.
还有俄罗斯的一位大公爵夫人，她被扔进了一座煤矿里杀害。
And you've got you've got one of the grand duchesses in Russia who was killed, thrown down a coal mine.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
你还有来自中国的人。
You've got people from China.
所以你有来自世界各地的人。
So you've got people from across the world.
但问题是，我们一直在讨论，我们所看到的大多数雕像都是那些杀人的人。
But the thing is that they you know, we've been talking about how most of the statues that we've been looking at are people who who who have killed.
这些人在那里是因为他们被杀害了。
These are people who are here because they were killed.
迪特里希·潘霍华。
Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
是的。
Yeah.
所以邦霍费尔，没错。
So Bonhoeffer, yes.
所以我认为他们有点像艾迪丝·卡维尔，她在我们的第一集中出现过。
So I suppose they're they're a bit like Edith Cavell, who was in our first episode.
她确实是。
She was.
但这些是殉道者。
But these are martyrs.
但是，汤姆，你之前在讨论文化挪用的问题。
But, Tom, I mean, you were arguing before about appropriation.
你不觉得这很英国吗？
You don't think this is kind of Britain.
我的意思是，你有这么多国际人物，不是吗？
I mean, you have all these international figures, don't you?
如果你觉得自己是世界的中心，想要不，不行。
If you sort of think you're the center of the world and you want to No.
因为这是一座教堂，它最初是作为天主教堂建造的，一直庆祝来自世界各地的圣人。
Because because this is a church and it was built as a Catholic church and it has always celebrated saints from across from across the world.
它宣称拥有普世管辖权，而英国国家显然没有这种权力。
It's it's claims a a universal jurisdiction, which, of course, the British state does not.
那么，你是否区分教堂外立面这些雕像与其他历史上众多雕像的不同？
And do you distinguish between these statues, are on the facade of the the church as so many statues have been through history?
但这些都是真实存在的人，比如马丁·路德·金。
But there are real people, you know, Martin Luther King.
你觉得他们和议会广场那些世俗雕像之间有区别吗？
Do you just do you think there's a difference between them and the Parliament Square secular
雕像？
statues?
完全不同。
Completely.
马丁，尽管马丁·路德·金，你
Martin even though Martin Luther King, you
你知道，他和纳尔逊·曼德拉、甘地是同一类人物，对吧？
know, he's he's the same kind of figure as Nelson Mandela and Gandhi, isn't he?
那为什么他不同呢？仅仅因为他出现在教堂的外墙上？
This why is he different just because he's on the facade
吗？
of a church?
马丁·路德·金在这里被当作一位基督徒来纪念。
Well, Martin Luther King is being celebrated as a Christian here.
好的。
Okay.
他的被暗杀被暗示为因信仰而殉道，某种程度上确实如此。
Who who is being you know, he implication is is that he was shot as a as a martyr for for his faith, which I suppose in a sense he was.
我的意思是，我承认这有争议，但从意识形态角度看，是的。
I mean, I agree that's controversial, but it's from the ideological point of view Yeah.
这与我们在第一集中讨论的英雄主义传统形成了有趣的对比，那期节目谈到了其他方面。
It's an interesting counterpoint to the traditions of heroism that we were talking about in the first episode that we ever did on the rest of the Yeah.
我们当时谈到了伟大。
We talked about greatness.
即使在那期节目中，我们也微妙地游走在伟大与圣洁之间，不是吗？
Well, even in that episode, we sort of trod a line between greatness and sainthood, didn't we?
人们更感兴趣的是，你知道，英雄主义这个概念已经让我们感到尴尬。
People are more interest you know, the the the idea of heroism really has become one with which we're embarrassed.
是的。
Yep.
而殉道这个概念，我认为，是我们更能够接受的。
Whereas the idea of of of of martyrdom, I think, is one that that we're more comfortable with.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这其中确实有道理。
I think there's sort truth in that.
我觉得这是因为我们更
Is it I think because we're more
我觉得现在他更像是受害者，而不是我认为的那样。
I think he's in the victim now maybe than the I think so.
是的。
Yeah.
而不是征服者，
Than the conqueror,
如果你愿意这么说的话。
if you like.
所以我觉得，你知道，这是一个有趣的对比，
So I think I think that that's, you know, it's it's it's an interesting counterpoint that
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，这些雕像显然远不如议会广场上的雕像那么出名。
You know, those statues are obviously not nearly as well known as the statues in Parliament Square.
而且，很多人走进威斯敏斯特大教堂时，根本不会抬头看这些雕像。
And often people can go in Westminster Abbey and not look up and see them at all.
是的。
Yeah.
但你知道，威斯敏斯特大教堂就像是威斯敏斯特的宗教版。
But, you know, Westminster Abbey is the, you know, it's the religious equivalent of of Westminster.
它是这个国家的宗教核心。
It's the it's the religious heart of of the country.
但是，汤姆，在我们做的第一个关于雕像的节目中——对我们的听众来说，那可能已经是很久以前的事了。
But but, Tom, in the very first episode that we did about statues, which probably for our listeners seems about a lifetime ago.
对。
Yeah.
你当时谈到了希腊人和罗马人，尤其是罗马人对雕塑的影响。
You were talking about the Greeks and the Romans, particularly the Romans and their influence on statuary.
我很惊讶你没有提到中世纪的圣徒和类似的人物，因为他们显然也是雕像的早期先驱。
And I'm surprised you haven't you didn't talk about medieval saints and people of that kind because surely they're they're also obvious precursors to
因为我认为，这种传统被17世纪罗马雕塑的复兴所取代了。
Because I think that's the tradition that the the seventeenth century resurrection of of Roman sculpture kind of supersedes.
好的。
Okay.
因为用雕像来颂扬圣徒显然是天主教的做法，而宗教改革后这种做法就被抹除了。
Because celebrating saints with statues is obviously a Catholic thing, which then gets erased with the reformation.
所以某种程度上，你或许可以说，开始竖立身穿罗马服饰的国王雕像，
So in a sense, perhaps you could say that starting to to put up statues of kings dressed in in Roman costume
是的。
Yeah.
是一种弥补新教在关闭修道院后对人类个体雕像需求的缺失的方式。
Is a way of replacing that hunger for sculptures of of human individuals that Protestantism had had effectively destroyed when they closed down the monastery.
我认为这背后有一个巨大的问题，我们在文化战争播客中讨论过人们对图像的焦虑。
I think there's a huge issue, which are we talked about in our culture wars podcast of people's anxiety about images.
是的。
Yeah.
我们之前讨论过加里·杨在《卫报》上的那篇文章。
And Which which is we've talked about Gary Young's article in the in the Guardian.
是的。
Yeah.
文章说所有的雕像都应该被移除。
Which said that all statues whole lot.
应该被拆掉。
Should be pulled down.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这是一种持久的焦虑。
I think that that is that is a kind of enduring anxiety.
我认为，人们对这里许多政治人物的焦虑，比如人们针对了丘吉尔——你知道，他基本上拯救了英国和整个世界免受法西斯主义的侵害。
And I think that a lot of the anxiety around all the political figures here so people have targeted Churchill who, you know, basically saved Britain and the world from fascism.
但他们也针对了甘地。
And but they also targeted Gandhi.
是的，他们确实这么做了。
Yes, they did.
你知道吗，这位为印度赢得独立的人，却被指控
You know, the man who who won independence for India, but was, you know, accused
有种族主义倾向。
of racism.
我认为人类有一种本能，既想推翻英雄，又想塑造英雄，但同时也有一种持久的欲望想要摧毁他们。
I think there's a human impulse to tear down heroes, to create heroes, but also there's an enduring desire to tear them down.
这就是为什么攻击丘吉尔和甘地——除了曼德拉之外，我们提到的这些人中最受爱戴、最与各种美德联系在一起的人——成为目标的原因。
And that's why attacking Churchill and Gandhi, probably of all the apart from Mandela, of all the people we've talked about, the most loved, the most associated with virtue of various kinds.
我认为这就是他们被针对的原因。
I think that's why they were targeted.
嗯，我认为他们也被针对是因为他们具有种族主义倾向。
Well, I think also they were targeted because they were racist.
我的意思是，这也是一个重要原因。
I mean, I think that's that's an important part of it.
我的意思是，如果你要这么简化的话，那对所有这些人来说都是一样的。
I mean, if you're going to be as reductive as that, surely that is true of all the people on part.
我的意思是，比如德比伯爵，还有以色列人，他们是不是
I mean, with the Earl of Derby, with the Israeli, were they
是的。
Yeah.
他们是不是
Were
他们难道没有那些现在看来很陌生的偏见吗？
they not did they not have prejudices that would seem alien to
我们现在看来不是这样吗？
us now?
英雄和圣人这两个概念之间存在张力。
Gets a tension between the idea of a hero and the idea of a saint.
是的。
Yeah.
而对于圣人，我们接受他们也是凡人。
And with a saint, you accept that they're fallen.
他们是普通人。
They're human.
因此，他们作为罪人的身份在神学上已经被纳入考量。
So the fact that they're sinners is kind of factored in theologically.
而对于英雄，情况就更复杂了，因为我们没有
With heroes, it becomes more complicated because we don't have the
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
说到圣人和罪人。
Talking of of saints and sinners.
还有英雄，我最喜欢的其中之一现在已经到了外面
And heroes, one of my absolute have now arrived outside
威斯敏斯特宫。
the Palace Of Westminster.
历史上的人物，法律的守护者，奥利弗·克伦威尔。
Figures in all history, the law protector, Oliver Cromwell.
我非常喜欢这座雕像。
This I I love this statue.
你正在为我们在爱尔兰赢得大量听众。
You're winning us all kinds of listeners in Ireland.
当然。
Of course.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
所以每次我和我儿子——他有一半爱尔兰血统——走过这座雕像时，我都会说：‘来，向这位伟人致敬。’而我妻子总会叹气翻白眼。
So every time I walk past this with my son, who's half Irish, I will say, oh, let's pay homage to the great man, and my wife kinda sighs and rolls her eyes.
所以，汤姆，这在当时就非常有争议。
So this was very controversial, Tom, even at the time.
这座雕像由哈诺·索恩克罗夫特于1899年竖立。
It's put up in 1899 by Hanno Thornycroft.
当时的自由党议员约翰·乔治·菲尔莫尔说，任何反对克伦威尔雕像的人，必定深陷偏见与党派精神之中。
A liberal MP at the time, John George Fillmore, said, any man who could object to a statue of Cromwell must be imbued with bigotry and party spirit in the highest degree.
天哪。
Goodness.
嗯，这是爱尔兰人的说法。
Well, it's Ireland told.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
所以，当然，爱尔兰的保皇派。
So, of course, the Irish royalists.
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