8. 咖啡馆的回响

如果你想从节目中获得更多内容，就加入'历史余韵'俱乐部吧。

If you want more from the show, join the rest is history club.

随着圣诞节的临近，你还可以为你生命中的历史爱好者赠送一年的会员资格。

And with Christmas coming, you can also gift a whole year of access to the history lover in your life.

只需访问restishistory.com并点击礼物选项。

Just head to the restishistory.com and click gifts.

欢迎来到'历史余韵'，或者应该说#历史余韵。

Welcome to the rest is history, or should that be hashtag the rest is history.

社交媒体以一种连罗马人都只能梦想的方式殖民了世界。

Social media has colonized the world in a way the Romans could only have dreamed of.

这重要吗？

Does it matter?

它真的在塑造世界吗？

Does it really shape the world?

这是一种新现象吗？

And is it a new phenomenon?

嗯，我和汤姆·霍兰德站在一边，他正从繁忙的推文日程中抽身，分享他对巨石阵遭亵渎的最新看法。

Well, I'm with Tom Holland, who's taking a break from his busy schedule of tweeting his latest thoughts about the desecration of Stonehenge.

汤姆，这可是社交媒体行动主义的巅峰之作？

Social media activism at its best, Tom?

呃，我我我觉得，它确实带来了一些积极影响。

Well, I I I like to think that, it is doing some good.

反对巨石阵隧道的运动我已经参与六年了，没有社交媒体的话，我根本不可能做到现在这样。

The campaign against the Stonehenge Tunnel is something that I've been involved with for six years now and I don't think that I could possibly have done it without social media.

它确实放大了这场运动的影响力，并引起了人们对道路开发的担忧。

It's definitely served to amplify the campaign and to raise the anxieties that we have about the road development.

我只是觉得，没有社交媒体的话，这一切根本不会发生。

I just I just don't think it would have happened at all without that.

在你们继续之前，让我们回到播客主题上来。

Before you get going, let's get back to the podcast.

我们能不能整期播客都聊巨石阵隧道的事？

Can we not just make this entire podcast about the Stonehenge Tunnel?

那将是我们的第一百期播客。

That'll be our hundredth podcast.

听众们可以期待一下。

That's something for the listeners to look forward to.

我能不能说，任何想帮助我们众筹上诉、反对政府这一荒谬决定的人，请在Twitter上关注@save stonehenge。

Could I just say could I just say, anyone who'd like to help help crowdfund our appeal against the government's travesty of a decision, check out at save stonehenge on Twitter.

哦，天哪。

Oh, dear.

哦，天哪。

Oh, dear.

非常感谢。

Thank you very much.

这简直是给汤姆的礼物。

This has just been a gift to Tom.

好的。

Right.

好吧，让我们从这条推文开始聊天吧。

Well, let's start the, let's start the chat with the tweet.

我是说，没有其他更好的开场方式了，这条推文来自奥利·辛普森。

I mean, there's no other way to start it, and it came from Ollie Simpson.

他听到我们要讨论的内容后，给我们发来了这个建议。

And he sent us this suggestion on hearing what we were going to be talking about.

他说，斯威夫特有句名言：'把咖啡馆里的回声，咖啡馆暴民的声音，误认为是一个王国的声音。'

He said, there's that swift quote about mistaking the echo of a coffee house, the voice of the coffee house mob, for the voice of a kingdom.

1710年的大选和《塔特拉》、《观察者》、《旁观者》等报刊的爆发式出现，似乎可以作为我们当前处境的一种历史先例。

The seventeen ten election and explosion of the Tatla, the examiner, the spectator around then seems a candidate for a kind of precedent to what we're going through now.

汤姆，你认同这个观点吗？

Do you buy that, Tom?

我认同。

I do.

而且不仅仅有斯威夫特的那句名言。

And there's there's not only the swift quote.

还有伯克的一句精彩引述，他著名地说道：'因为蕨类植物下的半打蚱蜢用它们烦人的鸣叫让田野回荡，而数千头巨大的牛在英国橡树的荫蔽下静静反刍。'

There's also a brilliant quote by Burke who famously said that because half a dozen grasshoppers under a fern make the field ring with their importunate chink whilst thousands of great cattle reposed beneath the shadow of the British oak chew the cud in the silent.

请别以为那些制造噪音的是田野中唯一的居民。

Pray do not imagine that those who make the noise are the only inhabitants of the field.

是啊。

Yeah.

而且，多米尼克，你是个十足的推特和社交媒体怀疑论者。

And, Dominic, you are you are a massive kind of Twitter, social media skeptic.

没错。

Yeah.

我是那群牛中的一员。

I'm one of the cattle.

我是那群牛中的一员。

I'm one of the cattle.

嗯，你算是头报告新闻的大公牛

Well, you're kind of a a a great bull, reporting

一棵英国橡树的树荫下。

the shadow of a British oak.

噢，汤姆，你太客气了。

That's Oh, Tom, you're too kind.

这正是我对你的印象。

Very very much how I like to think of you.

而我则是一只蚱蜢，

Whereas, I'm a grasshopper with

拥有自己的财富。

my own fortune.

你就像只蟋蟀，烦人的蟋蟀。

You're like a cricket, an annoying cricket.

你会喜欢那些喋喋不休的蟋蟀。

You'd like the crickets and Going on and on.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以这是新事物吗？

So is this something new?

你知道，你立刻就能在推特上发言。

You know, you talk to Twitter straight away.

你已经发了200亿条推文。

You've sent 20,000,000,000 tweets.

你有十亿粉丝。

You have a thousand million followers.

你觉得这是新事物吗？还是说，你知道的，我知道你认为一切都始于波斯人。

Do you think it's a new thing, or do you you know, I know you think everything started with the Persians.

波斯人没有发明社交媒体，但总有人发明了它。

The Persians didn't invent social media, but somebody did.

我 我觉得那

I I think that that

某种程度上可以说是社交媒体的始祖，以及它造成分裂的方式，我认为可以追溯到宗教改革时期。

really kind of the the ancestor of social media and the what the way in which it has a divisive effect, I think, can be traced back to the Reformation.

好的。

Okay.

具体来说，路德就是这样一个典范，他是当今我们所认为的社交媒体一切特征的伟大起源点。

And specifically to Luther, who I think is the kind of the great exemplar, the kind of the great origin point for everything today that we would associate with social media.

比如推特上的争吵、网络上的口水战。

So Twitter spats, Internet flame wars.

他具备在社交媒体上如鱼得水所需的一切天赋。

He had every gift that you would require to be effective on social media.

他能想出警句格言。

He he could come up with aphorisms.

他能恶语中伤他人。

He could slag people off.

他能揭穿假新闻。

He could denounce fake news.

他也能散布假新闻。

He could spread fake news.

请稍等一下，打断你一下。

So just to interrupt you for a second.

路德之所以出名，是因为根据传说，他将九十五条论纲钉在维滕堡格教堂的大门上，抨击天主教会并呼吁宗教改革等等。

So Luther comes to prominence because he nails his sort of according to myth, he nails his 95 theses to the door of the church in Wittenberg, slagging off the Catholic church and calling for, you know, a reformed church and all the rest of it.

那么，你...这些都是关于他的事情吗？

And and do you and and is it all his stuff is about that.

对吧？

Right?

这就像一场持续的运动，有点像巨石阵运动。

It's just a sort of continual campaign, a bit like a Stonehenge campaign, actually.

他就像是十六世纪的汤姆·霍兰德，对吧？

He's just like a sort of sixteenth century Tom Holland, is he?

如果你把九十五条论纲想象成类似推特线程的东西，就能理解了。

Well, if you think if you think about the the 95 written theses, perhaps as equivalent of a Twitter thread, you start to move into it.

再想想宗教改革发展过程中，木版印刷品（比如插图）在传播改革者信息中起到的关键作用，你可以将其视为当时的Instagram。

And then you think about, the way in which, as the Reformation develops, wood print prints, for instance, illustrations play a key role in propagating the reformer's message, and you think of that as being the equivalent of Instagram.

我认为这些类比并非完全牵强，因为在某种程度上，宗教改革之所以能够实现，恰恰是因为印刷术这种新媒介的出现。

And I think that these aren't entirely tendentious parallels because in a way, what what enables the Reformation is precisely the fact that there is kind of a new medium in the form of printing.

路德的过人之处在于他能够认识到这一点并加以利用。

And Luther's genius is that he is able to recognize that and to capitalize on it.

但这不仅仅是路德偶然发现了一项新技术并加以利用。

But it's not just that that Luther kind of comes across a a a new technology and makes use of it.

更重要的是这项技术放大了他的核心信念——个人的良知而非罗马教廷的庞大体系，才应该是信仰的决定因素。

It's also the fact that it it amplifies what his his his core conviction, which is that his individual conscience should be the determinant of what he believes rather than the vast edifice of the Roman church.

因此，与改革派相比，罗马教廷显得笨重迟缓，迟迟未能意识到正在发生的变化。

And so the the the the Roman church, in contrast to the the reformers, is kind of ponderous and is slow to wake up to to what is happening.

用社交媒体的话来说，改革派完全把罗马教廷耍得团团转。

And so the reformers in kind of social media terms, you wanna put it like that, completely run rings around the Roman church.

罗马教廷花了好长时间才开始发布自己的'梗图'，也就是相当于推文的内容。

It takes them a time to start putting out their own memes, you know, their own equivalent of tweets.

衡量路德影响力的一个惊人数据是：在16世纪20年代路德运动高涨时期，德国印刷品中有超过五分之一都出自路德之手。

And the the the measure of the impact, I think, that that that Luther has, and it's it's a kind of completely staggering statistic, is that over the course of the fifteen twenties, which is when Luther's really getting going, over a fifth of the entire output of pamphlets put out by German presses is is coming from Luther.

哇。

Wow.

这真令人印象深刻。

That's impressive.

他完全占据了主导地位。

He's completely dominating Yeah.

垄断了舆论场。

Dominating the airwaves.

这个播客里你绝不会听到牵强的类比。

Tendentious parallels are something you'll never get in this podcast.

但是汤姆，让我印象深刻的是，回顾路德的激烈言论，它们极具攻击性。

But, Tom, I wonder what what strikes me, right, is that, you know, when you look back at Luther's effusions, they are incredibly aggressive.

他直接骂人是傻瓜、白痴。

I mean, he's calling people, you know, a fool and an idiot.

他还用了大量粗鄙的词汇。

He uses lots of scatological stuff.

是啊。

Yeah.

恶劣得多。

Much worse.

非常、非常有攻击性。

Very, very aggressive.

我是说，实际上比很多所谓推特喷子发表的所谓'耸人听闻'的言论要激进得多。

I mean, actually, far more aggressive than a lot of the remarks that sort of supposedly so scandalous that trolls make on Twitter.

我在想，你觉得这种谩骂倾向是技术固有的，还是人性使然，或是其他原因？

And I wonder whether the it's a what you think about the the tendency to abuse, which is, you know, is that something ingrained in the technology, or is it in human nature, or what?

或者说，是时代造成的？

You know, or is it in the times?

你觉得是否存在某些特定时期人们就特别喜欢互相攻击？

Do you have particular moments when people just like to attack each other?

这确实很值得玩味，不是吗？

I mean, it's remarkable, isn't it?

要知道，Twitter、Facebook等平台的创立初衷是为了让人们更紧密地联系在一起，这其实是一种永恒的人类理想。

That, you know, Twitter was created and Facebook and all these things to bring people together, which is this sort of constant human ambition.

但转眼间，人们就用这些平台互相攻击，告诉对方他们有多糟糕多愚蠢。

And then straight away, people just use them to tell each other people how horrible and stupid they were.

从某种意义上说，人类不总是这样利用技术的吗？

And in a sense, people have always used technology that way, haven't they?

我我认为，如果我们观察——这也正是为什么我觉得这个类比如此精妙，为什么我觉得用推文形式完整重现宗教改革史会非常精彩。

I I think that if you look at and this is why I think the parallel is is so great and why I think it would be wonderful to kind of do an entire history of the reformation with tweets.

因为路德显然主导了宗教改革的早期阶段。

Because what happens is that Luther obviously dominates the early stages of the Reformation.

但很快，他引发的谩骂又招致了更多反击。

But very rapidly, he generates abuse his abuse generates abuse in turn.

这些攻击首先来自天主教徒。

So it comes from Catholics.

托马斯·莫尔不就曾用极其激烈的言辞回击过他吗？

Thomas More, you know, wrote this incredibly aggressive stuff back at him, didn't he?

是的。

Yeah.

但其他改革派也开始将他视为某种温和派的老古板，抱怨他改革得不够彻底。

But it also comes from other reformers who start to cast him as a kind of centrist dad and to complain that he's not going far enough.

所以，我是说，在粗俗语言方面，路德显然是个中高手。

So the I mean, the on on the scatological theme, Luther is obviously brilliant at that.

他总沉迷于谈论自己的肠道和排泄物。

He's constantly obsessed with his bowels, with excrement.

他一直在说这些。

He's always talking about that.

但这引发了托马斯·闵采尔更激烈的粪语相向——这位比路德激进得多的角色，在伟大的农民战争中站在了农民一边。

But this generates further kind of shit throwing from Thomas Munzer, who who is a far more radical figure than Luther, who in in the great kind of the war against the peasants, Munzer takes the side of the peasants.

路德则没有。

Luther doesn't.

而闵斯特尔的用词，你知道的，尽是些'驴屁'、'阴囊般的'、'腹泻制造者'这类话。

And Munster is, you know, he's he's phrases like donkey farts, scrotum like, diarrhoea makers.

既然你显然喜欢喝屎，我希望你酿出臭屎味的啤酒，他说。

Since you clearly like drinking shit, I hope you brew beer of stinking shit, he says.

现在的神父们可不太谈论这些话题了，是吧？

Priests don't talk enough about that, do they, today?

不。

No.

不。

No.

于是乎，这类言辞开始被他用来针对路德。

And and this and so this is and and this is the kind of stuff that he is starting to direct at Luther.

路德便开始以牙还牙。

So Luther then starts flinging it back.

就这样，冲突不断升级愈演愈烈。

And so it it kind of it it it builds and builds and builds.

你在推特上能清楚看到这种现象——当立场固化时，人们必然越来越激烈地互相攻击，激进情绪就这样不断升级。

And you can entirely see that in Twitter, that people get radicalized because people are taking when you get entrenched positions, people are inevitably driven to attack each other more and more and more, and so it escalates.

所以，将宗教改革称为文化战争是合理的，我认为这样称呼是合理的。

So it's reasonable to is it to call the reformation I mean, I think it is reasonable to call it a culture war.

最近有很多关于文化战争的讨论，人们对此情绪激动，他们说这些都是荒谬、人为制造的文化战争。

There's been lots of stuff recently about culture wars, and people sort of get very hot under the collar, and they say, oh, these absurd, confected culture wars.

但在我看来，文化战争一直是政治的核心内容，实际上文化战争并非不理性、不合理、异常或某种偏离常态的现象。

But it seems to me that culture wars are the stuff of politics and always have been, that actually culture wars are are not irrational or unreasonable or or anomalous or sort of aberrations.

它们是常态。

They are the norm.

它们是历史的组成部分。

They are the stuff of history.

你认同这个观点吗？

Do you do you buy that?

是的。

Yes.

完全认同。

Completely.

而且我、我认为宗教改革绝对是一场文化战争。

And I I and I think that that I think that the reformation is absolutely a culture war.

你说得对，这确实是一场战争，因为对改革者及其反对者来说，这不仅仅是文化层面的问题。

And and you're right that that that it's a war because it matters because because, you know, for for the reformers and and indeed for for for those who are opposing him, This is in in a way about more than culture.

这关乎人类灵魂的归宿。

It's about the destiny of people's souls.

这关乎上帝对人类命运的安排。

It's about the nature of god's plan for humanity.

我的意思是，赌注再高不过了。

I mean, the stakes couldn't possibly be higher.

因此从某种意义上说，这正是引发谩骂的原因。

And so that's why, in a sense, it's driving the abuse.

就像今天社交媒体上最恶毒的攻击，往往来自那些利益和价值受到最大威胁的人。

And the same you you look at social media today, the the the most vicious abuse comes from people whose whose interests and whose values are most under threat.

是的。

Yes.

不过有时候文化战争似乎会平息下来，不是吗？

Although there are times, aren't there, where the culture wars seem to die down.

所以我在想，我们成长的那个年代，文化战争有那么激烈吗？

So I think about much of, you know, when we were growing up, were culture wars that intense?

我并不这么认为。

I don't really think they were.

在七八十年代到九十年代期间，它们虽然暗流涌动，但并未全面爆发。

In the sort of seventies, eighties, nineties, they were kind of bubbling along, but they weren't at full pelt.

我的意思是，当时这些问题不会像现在关于课程去殖民化、雕像争议、国民信托组织这类事件那样完全占据人们的注意力。

I mean, it wasn't something that monopolized, people's attention in the same way that the current row is about decolonizing the curriculum or statues or the National Trust or or any of these things.

总会有这样的时刻，对吧？

There are sort of moments, aren't there?

这正是我觉得非常有趣的地方。

That's what I think is so interesting.

总有些时刻，潜在的裂痕会突然变得极度尖锐。

There are sort of moments when the latent divides become intensely embittered.

而且很明显，十六世纪诞生了，我不知

And, obviously, the sixteenth century was born, and, I don't

道，十八世纪或者现在或者六十年代也许。

know, the eighteenth century or the or right now or the sixties maybe.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为是当技术变革发生时，让人们能够放大自己的声音。

I I think it's when a a technological change happens that enables people to amplify their voices.

是啊。

So Yeah.

你知道，路德的信息其实已经在中世纪基督教世界的边缘酝酿了几个世纪。

The the message that you know, Luther's message was one that had been percolating around on the fringes of medieval Christendom for centuries.

路德所做的就是利用印刷机来放大他的声音。

What Luther was able to do is to make use of the printing press to amplify his voice.

确实。

And Yes.

我想同理，新教重视阅读圣经，因此也重视识字率。

I guess the same and and also because because Protestantism puts a premium on reading scripture, therefore, puts a premium on literacy.

识字率越高，能读写的人就越多。

And the more you have literacy, the more you have people who can read and write.

这反过来又扩大了能参与文化战争的人数。

And so that then, in turn, amplifies the number of people who can kind of join in the culture war.

我认为十八世纪也发生了同样的事，印刷业的商业化——

And I guess that in the eighteenth century, the same thing is happening, that that the commercialization of the press

对。

Right.

报纸和杂志。

Newspapers and magazines.

还有咖啡馆，

And coffee houses,

就像著名的斯威夫特语录所说，有点像聊天室之类的场所，为人们提供了聚会讨论辩论的空间。

as in the the famous Swift coat quote, kind of again, a bit like, I suppose, a kind of chat room or something, provide a space in which people can meet and discuss and debate.

因此我认为，要发动文化战争，你需要一个战场。

And so I think that that that culture wars you know, to have a culture war, you need a battlefield.

确实如此。

Well, you do.

不过这正是有趣之处。

That's what's so interesting, though.

对吧？

Right?

你需要一个开放的战场，因为你需要被暴露。

That that you need an open battlefield because you need to be exposed.

你必须接触到对方才能产生冲突。

You need to get to the other side in order to get cross.

这是社交媒体发展中最令我震惊的一点。

That's one of the things that strikes me about, the development of social media.

现在发生的事在五十年前是不可能出现的：人们会主动寻找那些他们强烈反对的观点。

So what happens now that wouldn't have happened fifty years ago is that people find things that they go out and they find things they really disagree with.

然后他们把这些内容转发给自己的粉丝，说看看这个狒狒写的什么玩意儿。

And then they retweet them to their followers, they say, look at this baboon.

他在《卫报》或《每日邮报》或《电讯报》上写的这篇文章多蠢啊，然后大家就在评论区一拥而上。

What a fool he is writing this article in The Guardian or The Daily Mail or The Telegraph or whatever, and they all pile on in the comments.

但显然在五十年代人们不会这么做。

But people obviously didn't do that in the nineteen fifties.

我的意思是，他们早上起床时不会想着'我极左'。

I mean, they didn't get up in the morning and think, I'm extremely left wing.

然后特意去买《每日快报》来把自己气得发狂。

I'm gonna go and buy the Daily Express and work myself into a frenzy.

实际上当时人们和现在一样都生活在信息茧房里。

People had actually were in silos then as much as they are now.

从某些方面来说，正是技术让我们能接触到对立观点这个事实反而激怒了人们。

And in some ways, it's the fact that the technology allows us to be exposed to the other side that actually inflames people.

至少这是我的看法。

Least that's my take on it.

是啊。

Yeah.

而且我认为这某种程度上迫使你对所有事情都要有个立场。

And I think also that it kind of obliges you to have a view on everything.

没错。

Yeah.

所以突然间，你会发现自己对完全不了解的事情发表了非常极端的观点。

So so so suddenly, you'll find that you have very intemperate views of something that you know absolutely nothing about.

历史学家在这方面表现很差，但早期有个很好的《问题时间》节目版本，他们邀请了AJP·泰勒。

Historians are very bad at this, but there's a very nice early edition of Question Time where they had AJP Taylor.

AJP·泰勒以固执己见著称，还为《星期日快报》撰写煽动性专栏。

Now AJP Taylor was famously opinionated and wrote a inflammatory column for the Sunday Express.

他们让他上《问题时间》，到了第十个问题左右，是关于住房政策的。

And they have him on Question Time, and it gets to about the tenth question and something about housing policy.

然后他们问他：'AJP·泰勒，你怎么看？'

And they ask him, AJP Taylor, what do you think?

他非常缓慢地说道，老实说，我对这件事完全没有看法。

And he says very slowly, to be perfectly honest, I have no opinion about this at all.

从来没有人会这么说，对吧？

And nobody ever says that, do they?

我的意思是，我们大多数人对很多问题确实没有看法，但总觉得有必要编造一个。

I mean, most of us do have no opinion about lots of issues, but we feel obliged to confect them.

我认为部分原因是社交媒体要求我们编造观点，不是吗？

I think partly because social media demands that we confect an opinion, doesn't it?

不过话说回来，我知道我这是在替您发言，因为您关于现代英国历史的著作正是围绕这一主题。

Although, having said that, and here, I know that I'm putting words into your mouth because this is very much the theme of your your books on modern British history.

这确实是非常小众的追求。

It's it's very much a minority pursuit.

没错。

Right.

而且那些上推特的人绝对不具有代表性。

And the people who were on Twitter are definitely unrepresentative.

我是说，我理解这就是伯克所讨论的内容。

I mean, I get that's what Burke is talking about.

这就是斯威夫特在十八世纪背景下所讨论的。

That's what Swift is talking about in the context of the eighteenth century.

而你的伟大论点是，我们通常将六七十年代与文化革命联系起来，但这些其实只是少数人的追求。

And your great thesis is that the kind of the the the cultural revolutions that we associate with the sixties and seventies are minority pursuits.

所以我猜你对二十一世纪的社交媒体也会持同样看法，对吗？

And so I'm guessing that you would think the same about social media in the twenty first century, would you?

嗯，我当然这么认为。

Well, I do, of course.

我的意思是，这是典型的情况，不是吗？人们会说，我认识的人都投票支持杰里米·科尔宾。

I mean, it's that classic thing, isn't it, that people sort of say, everybody I know voted for Jeremy Corbyn.

推特上所有人都投票支持杰里米·科尔宾。

Everybody on Twitter voted for Jeremy Corbyn.

我真是不明白。

I don't understand.

你知道的，那些民意调查肯定是错的，或者诸如此类的情况。

You know, the polls must be wrong or or whatever.

话虽如此，我认为十六世纪也是如此。

And that said, I think I think that's true in the sixteenth century too.

所以大多数人并非改革者。

So most people were not reformers.

大多数人其实并不太关心祭坛的位置、神父穿的法衣这类事情。

Most people didn't really give an enormous amount of thought to the position of the altar or the vestments worn by the priest or any of those things.

他们多少有点不情愿地被那些狂热分子拖着走。

And they're sort of dragged slightly unwillingly behind the enthusiasts.

在某种程度上，我认为社会和文化变革总是这样运作的。

To And some extent, I mean, that's how social and cultural change always works.

有一小群充满激情的人，而大多数人根本不在乎。

That there's a small group of very impassioned people, and most people couldn't give a damn.

他们只想要平静的生活。

They just want a quiet life.

而且，基本上，到了不遵从就会被杀的地步时，他们才会不情愿地跟着那些狂热分子走。

And and, basically, the point at which they're gonna be killed if they don't conform, they grudgingly go along with the sort of with the enthusiasts.

但但变革并非由所谓的庞大群体驱动，不是由田野里的牛群推动的。

But but change is not driven by the sort of great herd, as it were, by the cattle in the field.

它是由像你这样的人推动的，是由那些蚱蜢般活跃的人推动的。

It's driven by the by people like you, by the grasshoppers.

是的。

Yes.

变革确实发生了，因为没人能否认宗教改革带来了某种地震般的影响。

And the and and the change does happen because no one would deny that the reformation had a kind of seismic impact.

是啊。

Yeah.

所有这些，你知道，路德和明斯特之间的互相叫嚷，会产生一种累积效应，这种效应将会向外扩散。

And all these kind of, you know, Luther and Munster's kind of yelling at each other is going to have a cumulative effect that will will reverberate out across.

我是说，加尔文有句精彩的评论，他在某种程度上对欧洲历史进程的影响与路德不相上下。

I mean, there's fantastic comment from Calvin who, you know, is the the in a way, as as influential on the course of European history as Luther.

但加尔文评价路德时说：'但愿他能克制这种躁动不安、容易四处爆发的性格'——基本就是在说，我希望他别上推特。

But Calvin Calvin says about Luther, would that he work to curb this restless, uneasy temperament which is apt to boil over in every direction, which is basic he's basically saying, I wish he'd stay off Twitter.

这样不好。

It's it's not good.

而加尔文的方式更像是'我们需要谨慎地巩固并播种我们的思想'。

Whereas Calvin's approach is much more we need to carefully kind of consolidate and seed our ideas.

而且这种方式，在某种意义上，也被证明极其有效。

And and that, in in in a way, also proved incredibly effective.

哪种方式有效？

Which works?

这就是问题所在。

That's the question.

显然两种方式都有效。

Well, they they they clearly both work.

但从某种意义上说，加尔文的方式——某种程度上也是革命小组集会的雏形。

But in a in in a sense, Calvin's, I think, is Calvin's approach of which in a way is also I I mean, it's a kind of the prototype for the revolutionary cell meeting up.

是的。

Yeah.

充满炽热的信念。

Full of of of passionate conviction.

他们那个时代的布尔什维克。

The sort of Bolsheviks of their day.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yes.

在某种程度上，确实如此。

In a way, yes.

是的。

Yes.

但我想说的是，你之前提到的关于科尔宾支持者在推特上的行为——因为在推特出现之前，他们只是在电视台外站岗、卖杂志、带着文件和塑料袋参加会议，这些行为根本改变不了世界。

But, I mean, what what we what you were saying about supporters of Corbyn on on Twitter I mean, because what what they were doing before Twitter was standing outside TV stations, selling magazines, and and going to meetings with papers and plastic bags, and and very much not changing the world.

是的。

Yeah.

但推特确实起到了推动作用，你知道，它能极大地放大这种效应。

But Twitter definitely enabled you know, that can absolutely amplified it.

而且我想，在某种意义上，加尔文在日内瓦建立他神圣共和国的事例正在发生。

And and and I guess that that in a sense, know, that what what's happening with Calvin, who is you know, he fans his godly republic in Geneva.

它确立了一个改革后社会如何存在的原型。

It it establishes a prototype for how a kind of reformed society can exist.

完成这一创举后，欧洲各地的人物前来考察，再返回各自祖国将其传播开来。

And then having done that, then it gets amplified by figures from across Europe who come to it, who go back to their various homelands and write it up.

所以在十六世纪，加尔文著作出版最多、印刷最广、读者最众的地方并非日内瓦。

So so in the the sixteenth century, the place where Calvin is most published, most printed, most read is not Geneva.

而是伦敦。

It's London.

没错。

And Right.

我们可以看到这种影响一直回荡到十七世纪。

We can see the impact of that reverberating through into the seventeenth century.

我是说，加尔文主义及对加尔文教义的反应，在导致整个不列颠和爱尔兰陷入十七世纪内战的动荡中扮演了关键角色。

I mean, Calvinism and reaction to Calvin's teachings plays a crucial role in the convulsions that that that send the whole of Britain and Ireland into into civil war in the seventeenth century.

但当然，它随后也被输出到了美洲。

But, of course, it also then gets exported to to to America.

所以你看，这确实是具有震撼力的事物。

And so, you know, this this is this is seismic stuff.

但有趣的是，汤姆，我们讲述历史时很容易通过这些文化战争来呈现，并指出它们具有长期影响。

But the funny thing, Tom, is that we tell history we can easily tell history through a series of these culture wars and say, you know, they have long term repercussions.

最终它们会获胜。

They end up winning.

你知道，就像我早前提到的布尔什维克。

You know, you can talk I mentioned the Bolsheviks earlier.

在1890年、1900年、1910年时，他们看起来就像一群怪人。

In in 1890, in 1900, in 1910, they looked like a bunch of cranks.

他们只是在酒吧楼上昏暗的房间里互相交谈，没人在意，但最终却取得了胜利。

They were just sort of talking to each other in sort of dingy rooms above pubs, and nobody cares, and then they end up winning.

所以我们可以这样讲述历史。

So we can tell history that way.

但我想还有一种更有趣的讲述历史的方式，那就是描写所有那些没有成功的团体和昏暗酒吧。

But I suppose there's a more interesting way to tell history, which is to write about all those groups and dingy pubs that don't succeed.

我是说，这样的团体有很多。

I mean, there are lots of them.

对吧？

Right?

并不是每个人都会成为最终获胜的布尔什维克或福音派改革者。

Not everybody is a Bolshevik or a evangelical reformer who's going to win.

有趣的是你永远无法预知结果。

And and the interesting thing is you don't know.

当你开始你的改革运动，无论是撰写小册子、发推特，还是站在地铁站外分发传单，

When you embark upon your crusade and you're sort of writing pamphlets or you're tweeting and you're sort of or you're standing outside the tube station with a paper, you may be doomed to utter obscurity and irrelevance.

所以历史并不总是站在你这边，如果你自认为是变革的先锋。

So history is not always on your side if you're in the sort of vanguard of change as you see it.

但事实也是如此，不是吗？

But it is also the case, isn't it?

而你，比任何人都更清楚这一点，往往是那些制造最多噪音的人才会在历史书中留下记载。

And you, again, will know this better than anyone, that it's the people who make the most noise who tend to feature in the history books.

是的。

Yes.

因为历史学家需要原始材料来填充书本。

Because historians, you know, need raw material to put in the book.

没错。

Yeah.

非常正确。

Very true.

英国的牛群，你知道的，那些在英国橡树下吃草的壮硕牛群。

British cattle you know, cattle great cattle beneath the British oak.

你知道，他们正在嚼卡片。

You know, they're chewing the card.

他们不像当代的蚱蜢那样制造噪音。

They're not they're not making the noise that the contemporary grasshoppers are.

所以蚱蜢往往会被载入史册。

So the grasshoppers tend to go in the history books.

是的。

Yes.

因此，确实很难为那些自己不写作的人立传。

And so and so, absolutely, it is very difficult to write about people who themselves are not writing.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

That's right.

我在写六十年代时，记得曾和编辑聊过。

I mean, when I was writing about the sixties, I remember talking to my editor.

他大概是这样说的，你的论点被他形容为‘既要马儿跑，又要马儿不吃草’，因为你的核心观点是那时人们主要就是去房车度假、玩宾果游戏、光顾当地的Boerne小酒馆。

And he sort of said, well, your thesis is he said, you know, you're having your cake and eating it because your thesis is that basically people just went on caravan holidays and played bingo and visited the local Boerne Inn.

但要支撑起整本书的内容，光有这些是不够的。

But to sustain the book, you can't just have that.

所以你书中既写了披头士，又描写了狂欢派对、即兴艺术活动、与哈罗德·威尔逊交谈等情节，这些才是你论点的实质内容。

So you've got the Beatles in it, you've got people having orgies and going to happenings and talking to Harold Wilson and stuff, which is counts as your thesis.

但这些元素确实是必要的。

But you need to have that.

否则整本书就立不住脚，毕竟没人能忍受连续500页都在写房车度假的内容。

Otherwise, you have no book because you can't have people on going, you know, for 500 pages on caravan holidays.

但是多米尼克，以2020年的视角回望，难道你不认为六十年代那些‘蚂蚱’们，确实以某种方式改变了世界，而当年那些热衷房车度假的人却未能做到吗？

But, Dominic, I mean, looking now at at at 2020, wouldn't you say that the the the people the, you know, the grasshoppers in the sixties are the people who today have have indeed changed the world in a way that people who are going on caravanning holidays in the sixties haven't.

比如哪些方面？

Such as?

你是指女性主义、同性恋权益这类运动吗？

You mean feminism, gay rights, all that sort of stuff.

是吗？

Do you?

是的。

Yeah.

而且总的来说，在文化战争中，正是那些六十年代的边缘人物如今主导了战场。

And and and generally, that in that in the culture wars, it's it's it's the kind of the the the people who were the outliers in the sixties who now dominate the battlefield.

汤姆，我觉得这次谈话真让人沮丧。

Oh, I find that so depressing, Tom, this conversation.

我认为其中有一定道理，但只有当这些观点与大众潜意识的某种本能产生共鸣时才有效。

I think there's some truth in that, but I think it only works if they chime with some sort of subterranean instinct of the cattle as it were.

换句话说，无论你如何鼓吹一个非常不受欢迎的观点，如果它确实非常不受欢迎，你的叫嚣就是徒劳的。

So in other words, no matter how much you shout about a very unpopular idea, if it's genuinely very unpopular, your shouting is pointless.

七十年代就有这样的例子，当时有人大张旗鼓地呼吁改革性同意年龄法律，他们认为社会对恋童癖的认知完全错误，比如恋童癖信息交流组织。

An example of that is in the seventies, There were people who made a huge hullabaloo about, you know, reforming the laws on sexual consent because they believed that society had got it all wrong about pedophilia, the pedophile information exchange, for example.

他们当时闹得沸沸扬扬。

Now, they made a big fuss.

他们的事业毫无进展，因为大多数人认为这极其令人厌恶。

Their cause went nowhere because most people regarded it as utterly repellent.

所以你可以看到一些蚱蜢，如果你愿意这么比喻的话，它们不停地鸣叫，但永远不可能获胜。

So there you have some grasshoppers, if you like, who are chirping away, but they're never going to win.

他们永远不会成功。

They're never going to succeed.

而另一方面，同性恋权利显然有日益增长的公众宽容度，这种宽容不一定是那些最积极倡导的人推动的，而是根植于人们潜在的善良本性，可以说是'各人自扫门前雪'的生活态度。

You know, gay rights on the other hand, there clearly was a growing public tolerance that wasn't necessarily driven by the people doing the most campaigning, but it was rooted in what, you know, the latent decency, shall we say, of to the people's live and let live attitudes.

所以我不认为喊得越响就一定会赢，历史就会站在你这边。

So I don't think it's necessarily that the that the the more you shout, you'll always win, history belongs to you.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

但我确实认为，在价值观、伦理观以及对性取向（这是最明显的例子）乃至性别认知方面的转变，其速度之快堪称人类历史任何时期任何地域之最。

But I do think that the the transformation in values and ethics and assumptions about, say, sexuality would be an obvious one, but gender as well, it's it's been as rapid as as anything any period in history anywhere.

我甚至要说，实际上唯一能与之相提并论的只有宗教改革运动。

And I I would say that, actually, the the the reformation is really the only parallel that I can think of.

或许百年之后，六十年代会被视为相当于十六世纪二十年代的时期——就像引信被点燃后不断爆发、爆发再爆发，最终彻底改变世界的阶段。

And I think that that that maybe in a hundred years' time, the sixties will be seen as equivalent of the fifteen twenties as a period of of kind of where touch papers are lit that just explode and explode and explode and and transform.

要知道，人们花了多久才意识到自己正生活在被称为'宗教改革'的历史进程中？

And, you know, how long does it take before people realize that they had lived through something called the reformation?

我认为可能需要一百年。

I think that may maybe a hundred years.

到1590年代时，人们已开始讨论宗教改革了。

I think people were starting to talk about the Reformation by the 1590s.

但人们

But people

当时其实已经有所察觉了，不是吗？

were aware at the time, weren't they?

人们会说，我们正身处其中。

People would say, we are living.

要知道，早期就有大量人们这样说的引述。

You know, there's tons of quotes of people sort of saying in early on.

我们正经历着非常奇怪的时期，那些甚至一年前被告知的事情。

We're living through very strange times, things that we were told even a year ago.

现在他们告诉我们，国王改主意了。

They now tell us, the king now says, he's changed his mind.

事实上，你知道，圣徒、圣物等等，人们确实有种身处变革中的感觉，就像今天人们可能感受到的那样。

And actually, you know, the saints, the relics, whatever, have all been you know, people did have a sense of living through as as perhaps people have today.

总之，我们早该短暂休息一下，让汤姆查看他的私信了。

Anyway, it is long overdue that we took a short break so that Tom could check his DMs.

欢迎回到《余下皆历史》。

Welcome back to the rest is history.

请务必记得在您收听播客的平台给我们评分、评论，最重要的是订阅。

Do please remember to rate, review, and most importantly, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

提醒一下，可以通过Twitter联系我们，账号是@theresthistory。

And a reminder to get in touch with us on Twitter using at the rest history.

注意Twitter账号里没有'is'这个词。

Note there's no is in the Twitter handle.

说来奇怪，我们收到了大量关于社交媒体话题的社交媒体反馈。

Now oddly enough, we've got quite a lot of social media about the subject of social media.

那么让我们快速浏览一些听众的观察和问题，汤姆·霍兰德。

So let's whiz through some of your observations and questions, Tom Holland.

现在来看约翰尼·卡希尔的问题。

Here we go with Johnny Cahill.

他问：'由于社交媒体的兴起，取消文化和翻旧账现象是否变得更加普遍，还是说这始终是'

He says, has cancel culture and the desire to drag skeletons out of closets become more prevalent due to the rise of social media, or has it always been a

社会政治景观的重要组成部分？'

big part of the political and social landscape of society?

嗯，汤姆。

Well, Tom.