96. 英国最佳教堂

很明显，你的连接受到了严重干扰，但你最近还挑战了一个很棒的‘发疯’任务。

Obviously, there's a sharp shroupped your connection, but also you recently did a nice go ape challenge.

所以你当时在玩自己的绳索滑行。

So you were doing your own bit of rope sliding.

你

Which you

你你，我的意思是，你觉得你和卡德曼比怎么样？

which you which you I mean, do you think you were as good as Cadman?

我正要跟你们说这件事。

I was telling tell us about this.

我不知道

I didn't know

我对此一无所知。

anything about this.

我们是在夏天去的。

We went in the summer.

我们去和我儿子以及他的两个朋友一起玩了Go Ape。

We went to we went and did Go Ape with my son, two of his friends.

现在，那两个朋友在完成课程时遇到了困难，所以只剩下我和亚瑟。

Now the two friends had difficulties completing the course, so that left me and Arthur.

我觉得这简直太可怕了。

And I found it absolutely terrifying.

Go Ape，对于不了解的人来说，就是一些悬挂在高大树上的平台、通道和类似冒险游乐场的东西。

So Go Ape, for people who don't know, is this thing where you've got kind of platforms and and and we and and walkways and kind of adventure playground type things suspended high in trees.

这是一种适合胆大包天者的活动。

It's for sort of daredevil type activity.

我有点儿

And I kind of

多米尼克看起来像一个胆大包天的人吗？

Does Dominic's does Dominic's strike you as a daredevil?

一个知识分子式的胆大包天者，当然了。

An intellectual daredevil, surely.

我非常喜欢这种对多米尼克真实形象的洞察。

I'm loving this insight into actually How Dominic is seen by

我以为我要心脏病发作了。

I thought I was gonna have a heart attack.

我实在太害怕了。

I was so so terrified.

我们得爬一道悬挂在两棵树之间的攀岩墙，这是从一棵树到另一棵树的方式。

There was a thing we had to do a climbing wall suspended between two trees, and it was a way of getting from tree to tree.

所以，跳教堂这种事你肯定不感兴趣吧？

So jumping off churches wouldn't be your bag?

我觉得我不会。

I don't think it would.

Go Ape里面有很多高空滑索。

I did there's a lot of zip wires involved in Go Ape.

也就是说，当时在什鲁斯伯里发生的就是这些，对吧？

So, I mean, that's basically what was going on in Shrewsbury, isn't it?

太棒了，没错。

It's great Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

对，没错。

So so yeah.

选得好，蕾切尔。

Great choice, Rachel.

谢谢你为它加油。

Thank you for singing it up.

但在那之前

But before

哦，没关系。

oh, that's fine.

没关系。

That's fine.

但不管怎样，我想再补充几点关于那座教堂的事，因为它真的很漂亮。

But, anyway, just to say a couple more things about that church because it is gorgeous.

所以，你知道的，它有很多漂亮的诺曼风格元素，漂亮的红色砂岩，当你走进去时，中殿有一个令人惊叹的15世纪雕刻木制屋顶。

So it's, you know, it's like lots of lovely Norman bits, lovely old red sandstone, when you win, it's got an amazing fifteenth century roof carved timber roof in the nave.

但我认为教堂真正的亮点是彩绘玻璃。

But I think probably the real kind of crowning glory of the church is the stained glass.

所以，东窗有一个几乎完整的耶西窗，大约来自1330年。

So it's got an almost complete Jesse window in the east window from about thirteen thirty.

它原本来自什鲁斯伯里的旧圣查德教堂，那座教堂不幸坍塌了。

It did come from the old Saint Chad's in Shrewsbury, which was which collapsed, unfortunately.

不过他们不仅收藏了那片彩色玻璃，其余所有（或者说大部分）窗户上还留存着一批顶级的15世纪及16世纪欧洲大陆彩色玻璃。

But they've got that stained glass, also in all of the other windows or most of the other windows, it's got some of the best collection of sixteenth and fifteenth and sixteenth century continental stained glass.

我得说，这太不可思议了。

I mean, it's amazing.

你完全可以在那儿花上好几个小时细细观赏这些彩色玻璃。

You could spend hours looking at stained glass there.

那教堂实在是太美了。

It's just gorgeous.

而且如果你在什鲁斯伯里的话，你还可以去圣

But also if you're in Shrewsbury, you can also go to St.

阿尔克曼教堂、圣

Alkmans, St.

查德教堂，还有修道院。

Chad's, The Abbey.

你还可以去旧市集厅

You can go to the old market Hall

话说你是不是收了什鲁斯伯里旅游局的钱啊？

and you being paid by the by the Shoresby tourist report?

我...我也想啊，真的。

I I would I would like to be, yeah.

我特别想为什罗普郡旅游局工作。

I would like to work for Shropshire tourism.

瑞秋，我能快速问你一个问题吗？

And Rachel, can I just ask you just very quickly?

你去教堂参观的时候，常会被告知那些彩色玻璃窗在宗教改革期间被损毁了。

It's often when you go to churches, you'll be told, the stained glass window got destroyed in the reformation.

要么就是被克伦威尔的士兵之类的人开枪击毁了。

It got destroyed but shot by Cromwell's troopers or whatever.

对。

Yeah.

是这样的吗？

True is that?

你了解情况吗？

Do you know?

我是说，这是不是

I mean, is it is

我觉得其中一部分确实是这样的。

it a I imagine some of them were.

对。

Yeah.

总的来说，那种所有彩色玻璃窗都在宗教改革期间被捣毁的说法

By and large by and large, the idea that all stained glass windows got smashed in the reformation

我想想，我觉得吧，主要有两点。

I mean, I I guess well, it I guess two things.

我猜这得看那些玻璃窗上画了什么，还有它们有多显眼，是吧。

It depended on what it depicted and how obvious it was, I suppose, you know.

对。

Yeah.

不过，对

But, yeah.

所以我猜确实有一部分彩色玻璃窗被打碎了

So I guess some of it was.

我不太确定

I don't know.

但我觉得并不是所有的都被打碎了

I don't think all of it.

我是说，绝对不是那样的。

I mean, there definitely wasn't.

确实，对的。

There yeah.

还有不少完好保存了下来。

There's some great survivals.

对。

Yeah.

大概越是具象化，但也越明显带有天主教色彩

Presumably, the more the more figurative, but also the more obviously sort of papist it

是的

was Yeah.

它被摧毁的可能性就越大。

The more likely it was to be destroyed.

肯定就是这么简单，毫无疑问。

It must be as simple as that, surely.

就是想不通那座教堂当时有没有被士兵占用过，对。

And just whether the church was occupied by at some point by soldiers Yeah.

就比如说伯福德那个地方吧。

Like like Burford, let's say.

对。

Yeah.

当时士兵们就驻扎在那座教堂里。

The soldiers were were in the church.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

总之，雷切尔，我们进展得太慢了。

Anyway, Rachel, we're going far too slowly.

我知道。

I know.

好的。

Okay.

我要开始了，这可是个重磅问题。

I'm going and this is a big one.

那本来是我要说的简短内容，所以我们得抓紧时间了。

That was meant to be my short one, so we need to hurry up.

好的。

Okay.

所以从那之后，我就顺理成章地过渡到了下一段内容——刚才讲到的那些都是大胆无畏的壮举，那些人都十分厉害。

So from there, my my kind of seamless segue into the next one is so that was, you know, great feats of daring, you know, brilliant people.

接着我就前往北威尔士的圣

So there I go to North Wales to St.

格温内思郡的班纳尔克拉诺克法尔。

Bainall Clannock Far in Gwynedd.

你们知道这个地方吗？

Do you know this one,

是汤姆吗？

Tom?

不是。

No.

好的，太好了。

Okay, great.

多米尼克，我

Dominic, I

我知道你不知道。

know you don't know.

这并不

It doesn't

我不知道我是不是在问你。

know if I'm asking you.

抱歉，我知道你不知道。

Sorry, I know you don't.

我知道你不知道。

I know you don't.

Anyway, so St.

Anyway, so St.

本诺可能是威尔士最重要的圣人之一，尤其是在北威尔士。

Benno was probably one of the most important saints in Wales, definitely in North Wales.

他的名字是古威尔士语的一种演变，意思是‘了解牛群’。

His name, it's kind of a mutation of Old Welsh and it means knowing cattle.

就算不说别的，这名字听着也不讨喜啊。

Even That's to the not a name you want.

而且直到今天，他依然是病牛和儿童的守护神。

Also to this day, he's still the patron saint of sick cattle and children.

差不多就是这么回事。

So there we go.

话说回来，单从这点来看，你可能会觉得拜诺出身于农牧家庭，但实际情况并非如此。

So anyway, from that, you might think that Bainaut had a came from an agricultural background, but he didn't actually.

他是公元7世纪一位诗王的孙子。

He was a grandson of a king of poets in the seventh century.

最后，他选择了修道院生活，放弃了王室身份。

And ultimately, he chose the monastery over the monarchy.

他动身前往班戈，后来成为了那里的修道院院长。

He packed off to Bangor, and he became an abbot.

他是一名传教士。

He was a missionary.

他四处旅行。

He traveled around a lot.

这都很好。

That's all great.

总共有十一座教堂献给他。

There's 11 churches in total dedicated to him.

其中最小的一座是位于萨默塞特的圣圣圣贝诺的库尔博恩，非常漂亮。

One is the smallest one of the smallest, Saint Saint Saint Benno's Cullbone in Somerset, which is very nice.

但我想要谈论的是圣贝诺的克拉诺克火教堂。

But the one I want to talk about is Saint Benno's Clannock Fire.

它位于克拉恩半岛，是一座十五世纪的宏伟建筑。

And that's on the Clann Peninsula, and it is a fifteenth century whopper.

它真的非常漂亮。

Like, it's just it's gorgeous.

它非常庞大。

It's huge.

它非常庞大。

It's massive.

空间又大又开阔。

Big massive space.

教堂东面的窗户用的是精致的普通玻璃，没有彩色玻璃。

It's got this gorgeous plain glazing, no stained glass in the east window.

不过那里有一种叫屏风围屏的结构，你懂的。

But it's got, you know, screen misery cord.

它有一个很精致的croceted（拱顶花饰），抱歉啊，多米尼克，你肯定不想我用这些专业术语。

It's got a lovely croceted sorry, Dominic, you won't like me using technical terms.

我之前就被提醒过，不要用大家可能听不懂的词汇。

I know I was warned off using terms that people would people wouldn't know.

不过不管怎样，还有croceted、siddilia（教堂座椅围屏）这类的专业术语，都是这类东西。

But anyway, croceted, siddilia, all of that sort of stuff.

这座教堂真的很棒。

It's great.

但这座教堂所在的地方曾是一座修道院——圣贝诺修道院。

But this church was the site of this the monastery, Saint Benaud's monastery.

所以这件事真的很有意思。

So it's really interesting.

贝诺就葬在这里。

Benaud was buried here.

他原本被安放在修道院的礼拜堂里，但这座修道院和礼拜堂都在10世纪被维京人摧毁了。

He was interred in the monastery chapel, but the monastery and the chapel were both destroyed by Vikings in the tenth century.

那这么说你是来自爱尔兰的，应该没错吧。

Then Coming from Ireland, presumably.

是这样吗？

Were they?

维京人为什么会攻打北威尔士呢？

Why would Vikings be attacking North Wales?

他们是从都柏林之类的地方过来的吗？

Were they coming from Dublin or something?

有可能吧。

Maybe.

对。

Yeah.

你都不在乎吗？

You don't care?

我确实不在乎，因为这些内容根本不在我要讲的故事里，我也没时间聊这些无关的东西。

I don't I don't really care because that's not that's not on my story and I have no time to talk about all this.

总之，关于这里的故事可太多了。

Anyway, so there's loads to say.

另外有意思的是，马路对面有一口圣贝诺圣泉。

So anyway, what's interesting is across the road, there's a holy well and with Saint Beno's holy well.

据说要是你来这里朝圣，就可以去到这口圣泉。

And apparently, if you went on your pilgrimage, you could go to this holy well.

人们会把你浸到泉水里，这样不管是癫痫、佝偻病还是阳痿，什么病都能治好。

You could be dunked into the water, and you would be cured of anything from epilepsy, rickets, and impotence.

但要让这个方法生效，你得先在圣井里好好泡一回，然后过马路去教堂，在贝诺的墓地上睡一整晚。

But to make it work, you had to go for a big dunking in the well, then go across the road to the church and sleep on top of Benno's grave for the night.

那过程可够折腾的。

So that was great.

之后那段时期就这么相安无事地过去了。

And and then that was all fine.

而且这个习俗实际上一直延续到了十八世纪。

And that was actually a practice that continued, like, until the '17 until the seventeen hundreds.

但现在没人这么做了吗？

But nobody does it now?

现在没人这么做了，不是因为维京人，是因为维多利亚时代的人过来，说那座坟墓不安全，就把它拆了。

Nobody does it now because rather than the Vikings, the Victorians came along and said that the tomb was unsafe, so they dismantled it.

哦，又是健康和安全那套。

Oh, health and safety.

就是以健康和安全的名义。

For health and safety.

对。

Yeah.

维多利亚时代的健康与安全规定。

Victorian health and safety.

但是

But

所以卡德曼最厉害的本事大概就是沿着绳索滑行了。

so Cadman's great gift, sort of was sliding down ropes.

本诺最了不起的能力是让死者复生。

Benno's great gift is bringing people back from the dead.

所以他救活过很多人。

So he did this lots of times.

这可太厉害了。

That was great.

他的侄女温妮弗雷德也在被他救活的人之列。

And it included his niece, Winifred.

她选择成为一名修女。

She chose to be a nun.

被她拒婚的恋人砍掉了她的脑袋——在公元六七世纪左右的威尔士，如果你是一名圣徒，这似乎算是一种职业风险了。

Her jilted lover chopped off her head, which seems to be a occupational hazard if you were a saint in Wales kind of back in the seventh, eighth century, sixth, seventh century.

不过弗林特郡的圣威妮弗蕾德井就建在她头颅掉落的原址，据说那片地方还涌出了一处泉水。

But Saint Winifred's well in Flinthshire is on the site where her head fell off and apparently the spring came up.

而如今这里确实是威尔士最受欢迎的地点之一。

And it's actually it's one of the most popular places in Wales.

简直迷人极了。

Absolutely gorgeous.

那个地方名叫威尔士领主庄园。

It's called the Lords Of Wales.

那可太棒了。

So that's great.

那现在还有人会去那儿寻求治愈吗？

So do people still go there to get to get healed?

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

太棒了。

Brilliant.

是啊。

Yeah.

那里是不是常年有很多人去？

How many have lots of people?

非常多人。

Lots of people.

真的特别多。

Lots of people.

到处都是人。

Lots of people.

对。

Yeah.

好了，我长话短说，关于贝诺（Beno）有太多太多精彩的故事了，但我最喜欢的一件事是，他当时真的非常受欢迎。

Anyway, just very, very quickly because there's loads of there's loads of great stories about Beno, but actually my favorite one is basically, he was really popular.

不管是在他的修道院里还是其他地方，所有人都想和他打交道，你懂的。

Everyone wanted everyone wanted a bit of him, you know, in his monastery and all this sort.

所以他需要留出一点时间用来祈祷。

So he needed a bit of time to pray.

所以他以前常会走到河中央，带着一块石头，跪在河上在夜间祷告。

So he what he used to do is he'd go out into the middle of a river and he had a rock, and he'd kneel on the river to pray at nighttime.

总之，有一天晚上他被人打扰了，嘴里小声嘟囔了几句，很显然他能直接和上帝沟通。

Anyway, one night he was disturbed and he was he muttered something under his breath and obviously he's got a direct line to God.

于是他大概说了类似‘得有人给那家伙一个教训’之类的话，差不多就是那个意思。

So he said something like, you know, somebody should teach that person a lesson or something like that, something to those effect.

紧接着，所有的野兽都从林子里冲了出来，把那个人撕成了碎片。

And basically, all of these wild animals came out of the woods and ripped this person to shreds.

然后呢，比诺就继续祈祷，什么都没察觉到。

And anyway, Bino Bino just continued praying, didn't notice.

等他回到修道院之后，才发现出事的是他的一个弟子，名叫阿尔·赫伦。

Came back and then he realized it was one of his pupils, a guy called Al Heron.

本诺当时整个人都崩溃了，不过幸运的是，他拥有起死回生的能力。

And he was, you know, Benno was in an awful way, but luckily he has his power of bringing people to his back from the dead.

所以他就去把那名弟子散落的遗骸全部收集起来，重新拼回了完整的身体。

So basically, he just went around and gathered all the bits of him and put him back together.

他本人没什么大碍，但找不到自己的眉毛了。

And he was fine, but he couldn't find his eyebrow.

贝诺奇找不到自己的一边眉毛了。

Baynoch couldn't find one of his eyebrows.

那根眉毛不见了。

It was missing.

于是他就四处看了看，然后说道，哦，行吧。

So what he did was he thought he looked around and he said, oh, okay.

他当时带着那根用来撑着走到河边的手杖，手杖的末端包着铁头。

So he had his staff that he used to help get him out to the river, and they had an iron tip.

于是他把手杖上的铁头拆了下来，粘在阿尔海恩的额头上，把这当成了他的另一条眉毛。

So he took the iron tip-off his staff, stuck it onto Alhairn's forehead, and gave him his other eyebrow.

从那以后，这位圣徒阿尔海恩就被人们称为“铁眉”，成了一位圣徒。

And from then on, this this saint Alhairn, he became a saint, was known as Iron Eyebrow.

太妙了。

Brilliant.

那这么说他不是整形外科医生的守护神啊？

So he's not a patron saint of plastic surgeons?

不是。

No.

他只是保护病牛的。

Just sick cattle.

原来是这样。

Yeah.

嗯不对，我觉得这个传说也特别有意思。

Well, I think that's a great that's a that's a great one as well.

这个说得真好。

That's a very good one.

而且啊，现在好多人都在操心一件事，就是那些教堂担心大家都不再去教堂做礼拜了。

And I mean, the whole thing people worrying about, you know, people not churches are worried that people aren't going to church.

要是有这么个能让人起死回生的机会，那肯定

I mean, the option of being brought back to life, I mean, that would be

我懂。

I know.

但那个

But that

但那件事啊，我是说，复活的设定肯定是基督教信仰的核心部分吧，汤姆？

but that, I mean, surely, the option of being brought back to life is a key part of the Christian faith, isn't it, Tom?

哦，多米尼克。

Oh, Dominic.

别再说你的神学笑话了。

Stop it with your theological jokes.

好的。

Okay.

明白了，雷。

Got it, Ray.

说得太妙了。

Brilliant.

那这样就有两个了。

So that's two.

好的。

Alright.

哦，我明白了。

Oh, Okay.

哦，

Oh,

第三个。

Three.

这个得好好说说。

Big one.

我们要住在北威尔士。

We're staying in North Wales.

这次我们打算去北威尔士的尚夫罗辛的圣布罗辛教堂。

This time we're going to Saint Brothin's, Chamfrothin in North Wales.

是

Is

什么？你再说一遍。

what Say that again.

抱歉。

Sorry.

是圣布罗辛，钱弗罗辛。

Saint Brothin, Chamfrothin.

好的。

Okay.

明白了。

Alright.

没问题。

That's fine.

我就是确认一下。

Just checking.

没问题。

That's fine.

多米尼克，要是我再念一遍的话，你觉得你能知道这个地方吗？

Do do you think you might know it Dominic if I if I repeated did.

没错。

Did.

就是这样。

Exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

很好。

Fine.

那个人是谁？

Who is that one?

这是一座很棒的教堂。

So this is this is a great church.

这是我实际上与无依教堂之友一起维护的一座教堂。

This is one that I actually look after with Friends of Friendless Churches.

但这是一座教堂，那里有一位男子，他在去世后在这里改变了历史的进程。

But this is a church where there's one man and he basically changed the course of history after his death at this church.

所以你们有谁知道一个叫罗伯特·罗伯茨的人吗？

So do either of you know a guy called Robert Roberts?

不知道。

No.

不知道。

No.

好的。

Right.

明白了。

Okay.

我就猜到你们不知道。

I didn't think you did.

1888年的时候，他是一名北威尔士的采石工人。

He was a North Whalian Quarry Man in 1888.

你刚说什么？他是谁啊？

You Who's him?

是历史学家吗？

Historian.

得了吧。

Come on.

所以罗伯特·罗伯茨1888年去世了，他想要和自己的女儿葬在一起。

So Robert Roberts died 1888 and he wants to be buried next to his daughter.

那是他唯一的遗愿。

That was his one wish.

但他的女儿……而且他本身也不是英国国教的教徒。

But his daughter, but he wasn't a member of the established church of England.

他是个不循规蹈矩的人。

He was a non conformist.

而所有的麻烦就是从那时候开始的。

And that's where all the trouble began.

关于他为何落得这般境地，流传着好多不同的说法。

There's loads of kind of story about why this didn't work out for him.

但根本原因是，牧师不准他葬在教堂墓园里，没法陪在自己女儿身旁。

But basically, the vicar wouldn't allow him to be buried in the church next to his daughter in the churchyard next to his daughter.

一场冲突的局面也就此埋下了伏笔。

And the scene was sort of set for a clash.

事情的后续发展是这样的：罗伯特·罗伯茨的家人找到了一位刚取得执业资格的律师。

So how it all happens was of Robert Robert's family went to a newly qualified solicitor.

这个人你们肯定都认识。

A guy ye will know definitely.

就算你们不知道罗伯特·罗伯茨是谁，也一定会认识这个人。

You'll know this guy if you don't know Robert Robert.

戴维·劳合·乔治，你听过

David Lloyd George, have you heard

这个人吗？

of him?

哦，是的。

Oh, yes.

哦，那是多米尼克的偶像。

Oh, Dominic's hero.

多米尼克很喜欢戴维。

Dominic loves David.

对。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

抱歉。

Sorry.

听上去我好像专门挑了多米尼克最欣赏的那些教堂来聊。

It it sounds like I've sort of picked Dominic's best churches.

先不说这个了。

Anyway.

对的。

That's right.

就该这样。

That's how it should be.

我不是故意的，只是觉得得把这件事先说明一下。

That was unintentional, but I thought I'd get this in.

所以这场葬礼基本上就是开启大卫·劳合·乔治政治生涯的契机。

So basically this burial is sort of what launched David Lloyd George's career.

那时候他刚拿到律师执业资格，成为一名正式律师。

So basically he was a newly qualified solicitor.

他当时25岁接下了这个案子，建议死者家属直接按自己的想法来，无视牧师、违抗教区，把罗伯特·罗伯茨葬在威尔士教会墓园里他女儿的墓旁。

He was aged 25 and he took up this case and he advised the family to just go ahead, defy the vicar, divide defy the diocese and bury Robert Roberts next to his daughter in the church I mean, of Wales Churchyard.

但牧师早就察觉到这事在暗中酝酿，于是锁上了教堂墓地和所有相关场地，不让他们进去。

But the vicar knew this was kind of brewing so he locked up the churchyard and all of this and so they couldn't get in.

于是以大卫·劳合·乔治为首的一行人，辗转穿过好几条蜿蜒的小路，找到了一座非常偏僻的教堂。

But what they did do led by David Lloyd George, they went to this really remote church down all of these winding lanes.

他们把遗体运到了那里。

They brought the body down there.

大卫·乔治撬开了教堂墓地的大门，接着大家借着蜡烛和灯笼的光，把罗伯特·罗伯茨葬在了他女儿的墓旁。

David George broke open the churchyard gates and by candlelight and lanterns, they buried Robert Roberts next to his daughter.

一切都顺顺利利的，直到牧师发现了这件事。

All lovely until the vicar found out.

之后就引发了一场大规模的官司。

Then there was a huge court case.

陪审团的判决支持罗伯茨一家人。

The jury voted in favor of the Roberts family.

法官则站在教会那边——哦不对，是做出了支持教会的裁决，你懂我意思的。

The judge voted in favor of the church, not voted, you know what I mean.

大卫·劳合·乔治向高等法院提起上诉，最终胜诉了。

David Lord George appealed it at the high court and eventually won.

这件事算是彻底开启了他的政治生涯，因为两年后，他就当选为卡那封郡的国会议员，之后的发展就不用多说了，大家都知道。

But that basically launched his career because then two years later, he was voted the MP for Canarvon Sheer and then he became, you know, the rest is history, as he might say.

天哪。

Goodness.

做得漂亮。

Nicely done.

做得太漂亮了。

Very nicely done.

之前有人这么做过吗？

Has anyone ever done that before?

实际上还真没人做过。

They haven't actually.

说真的，从来没有。

Actually, no.

你是第一个说这些的人。

You're the first.

哦。

Oh.

哦，原来是这样。

Oh, okay.

我能不能问一下，那个女儿后来怎么样了？

Do can I just ask the the the daughter?

她去世多久了？

How long has she been dead?

有人知道这个情况吗？

Do we know?

哦，天呐。

Oh, golly.

那具尸体是不是已经腐烂了？

Was it a kind of mouldering body?

或者说那是一具已经腐朽的尸体。

Or It was a mouldering body.

对。

Yeah.

绝对是这样。

Definitely.

没错。

Definitely.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

所以这本质上就是异见者之间的争斗，具体说是威尔士的异见者，没错。

So this is basically a battle between dissenters, Welsh dissenters Yeah.

以及国教教会。

And the Established Church.

那个

Which

是对的。

is Yeah.

这其实在19世纪末20世纪初是一个重大的政治议题。

A huge political issue actually in the late nineteenth, early twentieth century.

不过话说回来，现在已经完全没人记得这件事了。

Well, mean, completely forgotten now.

没错，正是如此。

Well, exactly.

但所有这些事情，你知道，大卫·劳合·乔治确实做了，我的意思是，我大概可以直接叫他劳合·乔治。

But also all of this stuff so, you know, David Lloyd George did, I mean, Lloyd George, I can probably just call him that.

我不需要说出他的全名。

I don't need to give him his full name.

但这个案件最终成为推动威尔士教会建立的催化剂，你知道，这件事在20世纪20年代才真正实现。

But this case became sort of the catalyst for the establishment of the church in Wales as well, you know, eventually happened in the 1920s.

所以所有这些事情都是因为这个葬礼案件而发生的，这真的很酷。

So all of that sort of happened because because of this burial case, which is really cool.

但简要地说一下，这座教堂本身也非常了不起。

But just really quickly, the church is amazing too.

圣布罗辛是一位六世纪的圣人。

So Saint Brothin was a sixth century saint.

现在的教堂建于十三世纪。

It's the church is now thirteenth century.

它就建在河口边上，位置刚好在河口处。

It's built on an right on the estuary.

就紧挨着岸边。

It's right on the shore.

它那建于15世纪的屋顶非常惊艳，由巨大的木料搭建而成，绝对美轮美奂。

It's amazing fifteenth century roof, massive timbers, absolutely gorgeous.

一定要去看看。

Definitely go and see it.

好的。

Okay.

嗯，那这算得上是政教分离运动历史上的一个里程碑事件了。

Well, so a landmark in the history of disestablishmentarianism.

对的。

Yep.

没错。

Exactly.

干得好，汤姆。

Well done, Tom.

这确实是我们播客里从未用过的一个词。

Just definitely a word we've never had on the podcast before.

而且

And

在我们离开这个话题之前，我只想说

before we move from that area, I just have

第四个。

fourth one.

你拿到第四个了吗？

You got the fourth?

没有。

No.

没有。

No.

我这就随便提个，那个……

This is just kind of a little, you

你懂的，就是‘达成了’这个词。

know Achieved.

好吧。

Okay.

这是第三个？不对。

Is this is three a.

所以如果你真的很了解英国首相的话——你们也知道，咱们节目的一些听众确实应该了解这些内容——那你应该去看看位于弗林彻郡霍华德的圣丹尼尔教堂，格拉斯顿1839年就是在那里举办的婚礼。

So if you're if you really like your prime ministers, which, you know, I know some of the listeners to this show should or should do, you should go and see Saint Daniel's in Howardin in Flincher, which is where Gladstone was married in 1839.

多米尼克，你了解这个地方吗？

Do you know this Dominic?

你在点头呢。

You're nodding.

对。

Yeah.

是格拉德斯通和霍华德那个地方吗。

Gladstone Howard.

对，没错。

Yeah, of course.

挺好的。

Fine.

太棒了。

Grand.

不过显然他们结婚的时候，教堂里挤满了女性，挤得都喘不过气，这一点有些人可能会觉得有意思。

And but apparently when they got married, the church was crammed to suffocation with females, which you know, some people might like.

但话说回来，这件事真正有意思的地方是，除了那段历史本身，那里还有一座格莱斯顿纪念教堂，格莱斯顿的家人委托他的挚友伯恩-琼斯来设计教堂的彩窗。

But anyway, what's really interesting about this, there's obviously that history, but there's a memorial chapel to Gladstone and the family commissioned Gladstone's very good friend, Burne Jones to design the window.

那个彩窗绝对——我是说，如果你欣赏伯恩-琼斯的话，他确实很厉害。

And it's an absolute I mean, Burne Jones is great if you like him.

不过有些人并不喜欢他的风格。

Some people don't.

但那扇窗真的太惊艳了。

But it's an amazing window.

窗上绘的是耶稣诞生的场景。

It's a nativity scene.

它的尺寸超大，完全是伯恩·琼斯一贯的精美风格。

You know, it's massive, all beautiful kind of usual Burne Jones style.

不过，对，这扇窗绝对值得专程去看看。

But, yeah, definitely worth going to see.

如果你喜欢首相和伯恩·琼斯的话，那你肯定会觉得很棒。

If you like prime ministers and Burn Jones.

哇。

Wow.

我们挺喜欢的。

We do.

对。

Yeah.

我们很喜欢。

We love it.

是的。

Yeah.

在这个播客中，我们喜欢伯恩·琼斯。

On this podcast, we love Burn Jones.

我们喜欢首相。

We love prime ministers.

所以这完全符合所有条件。

So that's absolutely ticking every box.

克里斯。

Chris.

蕾切尔，我们已经聊了半个小时了，我想我们应该休息一下。

And Rachel, we've we've we've been talking for half an hour, I think we should have a break.

真的吗？

Really?

你已经介绍了三位了。

You've done you've done three.

我知道。

I know.

所以你还得再说七位才行。

So you've got to get seven in.

那现在可就悬念拉满了。

So there's now huge jeopardy.

对的。

Yes.

你能把你现在那七个内容压缩到半小时里讲完吗？

Will you be able to get your now seven into half an hour?

提醒一下各位观众，千万别走开。

I mean Guys, don't go away.

没错。

Yeah.

我不被允许这么说，对吧，多米尼克？

I'm not allowed to say that, am I, Dominic?

因为听起来确实很有吸引力。

Because you it sounds appealing.

但我的意思是，这太令人兴奋了。

But but, I mean, this is so exciting.

但没人会想离开，因为这太刺激了。

But no one would want to go away because it is so exciting.

你能把七个放进……

Can you get seven into Can

你能在半小时内完成七个吗？

you get seven into half an hour?

当然可以。

Definitely.

一分钟。

A minute.

走着瞧吧。

Find out.

拜拜。

Bye bye.

再见。

Bye.

欢迎回到《往事如虹》节目。

Welcome back to the rest is history.

我们即将迎来半小时的紧张刺激与惊险时刻：我们的嘉宾——“废弃教堂之友”的负责人、曾获评年度人物的雷切尔·莫利，要试着在节目最后这半小时里，讲完剩下的7座教堂，而她在前半小时才刚讲完3座。

We are facing a half an hour of intense excitement and jeopardy as our guest Rachel Morley, the director of Friends of Friendless Churches, former winner of Person of the Year, is going to see if she can fit her remaining seven churches into the last half hour of the show, having taken the first half hour to do three churches.

这压力也太大了，对吧？

So It's massive, isn't it?

全程都让人紧张得喘不过气。

It's high octane choke.

我说，这剧情太让人难以置信了。

Mean, this is unbelievable drama.

这才是最精彩的状态。

At its best.

行。

Okay.

那接下来的半小时里，你们俩都别说话啦，拜托了。

So neither of you talk for the next half an hour, please.

好。

Okay.

那我就直接开口说了

So and I'll just get it out.

没问题

Fine.

好的

Okay.

下一个

Next.

我清单上的第四项。

Number four on my list.

哦，关于这件事我得先好好铺垫一下，因为我希望能尽可能多地争取到教堂参与进来。

Oh, I have I have a big intro to this because I want to try and as many churches in as possible.

所以我会尽力把这件事讲清楚。

So I'm just gonna try my best.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Right.

话说回来，有谁了解英联邦恩典委员会吗？

Anyway, who knows about Commonwealth Grace Commission?

我了解。

I do.

我曾

I've

总之，好吧。

got Anyway, to okay.

有一本书，一本非常好的书出版了。

There's a book, there's a really good book that came out.

我认为是去年或前年出版的，叫《俯瞰墓穴》，作者是彼得·罗斯。

I think last year or the year before called Tomb with a View by Peter Ross.

书中有一章写得非常好。

He's got a great chapter in it.

他让我学到了很多关于英联邦战争公墓委员会的知识，这些是我以前不知道的。

And he taught me lots about the Commonwealth Grave Commission that I didn't realize.

比如，如果你埋葬在英联邦战争公墓，你的墓碑必须高出草地813毫米，而草地的修剪高度必须在3.5到6厘米之间。

So things like if you're buried in a Commonwealth Grave Cemetery, your your stone has to be 813 millimeters above the grass and your the grass has to be cut between three point five and six centimeters.

我觉得这非常有趣。

I thought that was very interesting.

总之，这有点转入第四点，也就是世界大战时期的教堂和小礼拜堂，当我们进入教堂、小礼拜堂时。

Anyway, this is kind of a segue into number four, which is world world war churches, chapels, when we're in churches, chapels.

所以我想只点名介绍两处，大家应该都很熟悉这两个地方，而且我也没时间深入展开讲了，尽管我为此写了很多内容。

So I want to call out just two, which will be very familiar and I'm not gonna have time to talk about them in any great depths despite I've written loads.

一处是奥克尼的意大利小教堂，那里特别棒。

There's the Italian chapel in Orkney, which is great.

它原本是战俘营里的，由两间棚屋改造而成。

It's a prisoner of war, doubleness and huts.

人们用了水泥来修缮建造。

They used cement.

他们会用咸牛肉罐之类的东西做烛台，还用汽车排气管做圣洗池。

They used things like corned beef tins to make candle holders and and car exhaust to make the font.

真的很棒。

Really great.

瑞秋，我打断一下。

Rachel, let me interrupt.

好的。

Yes.

这是我们的一位听众提出来的。

One of our listeners suggested this.

金·卢

Kim Rue

我记不太清了。

I can't remember.

金·卢·福德。

Kim Rue Fod.

金·鲁沃德。

Kim Roovod.

是他提议的。

He suggested it.

所以金，你快给自己鼓个掌吧。

So Kim, you don't get give yourself a massive round of applause.

没错。

Yes.

太棒了。

Great.

好了，咱们接着往下说。

Anyway, moving on from that.

那有一处威尔士战俘小教堂，很多人都不知道这个地方。

There's a Wales place of war there's a Wales prisoner of war chapel, which many people don't know about.

就是蒂维河附近的亨奇兰小教堂。

It's Henchland Chapel near near the River Tyvy.

那是1994年在教堂里，我又说错了。

That was in nineteen ninety four chapel again.

抱歉。

Sorry.

1994年？

1994?

是1944年，在教堂里。

Nineteen forty four chapel.

那还是一个尼森小屋，他们还用了各种东西，像浆果、茶、咖啡之类的。

It's again, it's a Nissen hut, and they use all sorts of things like berries, tea, coffee.

他们把鱼烧掉，或是把鱼骨熬成胶，用这些材料来装饰这座小教堂。

They burned fish or boiled fish bones to make glue and they decorate it.

这些都太了不起了。

That's all great.

我得抓紧时间快点讲了。

I have to go at really high speed.

那我来讲第四个

So number four

刚才那两个都不是第四个啊，那些

Neither of those was number four Those

那些都只是值得提一提的内容而已

were those were just ones that deserve a mention.

它们确实值得一提，但都不是第四个要讲的内容

They're they're they deserve a mention, but they're not number four.

那第四个地方，可能是我这辈子去过的最让人动容的地方之一。

So number four, it's probably one of the most moving places I've ever been in my whole entire life.

就是汉普郡的桑登纪念教堂。

It's Sandon The Memorial Chapel in Hampshire.

从外面看，它就是一座非常朴素的红砖小教堂，但里面……我的天，里面全是气势恢宏的大型壁画。

It is outside is a really modest kind of red brick chapel, but inside it is just I mean, it's it's just this epic large scale murals.

教堂内部的所有画作都是斯坦利·斯宾塞完成的，创作时间在1920年到1926年之间。

The interior is entirely painted by Stanley Spencer, and it was done between 1920 and 1926.

它是为了纪念第一次世界大战中被遗忘的逝者而建造的，尤其是特里·桑多姆中尉——他当时和斯宾塞一起在萨洛尼卡前线服役。

It was built to honor the forgotten dead of of World War one, specifically lieutenant Terry Sandom, who basically he was on the Salonika front with with Spencer.

他从战场上活着回来了，但回来之后就去世了。大家推测他是在前线的时候染上了疟疾，最终因此丧命。

He came back from the war, but he he died from he caught malaria, they think, while he was out there, and he died once he came back.

但他没有出现在任何官方名录之类的记录里，因为他算不上，你懂的，并不是那种……

But he doesn't appear on any official kind of list or anything because he wasn't kind of, you know, one of the the

官方登记的战死者。

Official ward.

正式的、官方在册的人员。

Official official warden.

没错。

Exactly.

太棒了。

Great.

谢谢你，多米尼克。

Thanks, Dominic.

总之，这个地方的特别之处在于——从斯坦利·斯宾塞的经历来看，他曾在布里斯托尔的博福特医院当过护工，之后又被派往萨洛尼卡前线。

Anyway, what's great about this is so it seems from so Stanley Spencer, he worked as an orderly in Beaufort Hospital in Bristol, and then he was out on the Salonica front.

而这座教堂里留存着一系列他创作的画作。

And basically, there are a series of paintings.

这些画描绘了他在医院工作的那段时光：给茶桶添茶、换病床、洗衣服，诸如此类的日常琐事都被画进了作品里。

So it shows his his time in the hospital, working in the hospital so it's like filling tea urns, changing the beds, doing the laundry, all of that sort of thing.

而在这些画作的上方，还有四幅展现萨洛尼卡前线场景的作品，真的非常令人动容。

And then above you've got scenes from for scenes from Salonica and I mean, it's so it's so moving.

他把自己也画进这幅作品里了。

He painted himself into it.

所以画面里的他正在煎培根条。

So he's cooking rashers.

还有一只狗在舔一个空的香料罐头。

There's a dog licking out an empty fragrant tin.

但这些画作之所以极具感染力，是因为它们的画幅尺寸都很大。

But it's just so powerful because of the scale that they're on.

可惜我没时间了，还有好多内容没法给大家讲到。

And then I have to miss out so much because I have no time.

不过话说回来，这面东墙上的复活场景，和你见过的任何复活主题场景都不一样。

But anyway, the East Wall is this resurrection scene and it's not like any other resurrection scene you will ever see.

场景的正中央有一辆马车，而且这辆马车是碎裂开来的。

It's basically the in the center, there's a carriage and the it's broken apart.

整个马车裂成了好几块。

It's split apart.

木屑碎片到处飞溅。

There's bits of wood flying everywhere.

有两匹马倒在了场地正中间。

There are two horses which have collapsed right in the middle.

前景区域完全是一片混乱的景象。

And it's just a chaotic scene right in the foreground.

画面里全是从坟墓中爬出来的人。

And it's all of these men who are getting out of their graves.

他们捡起自己的白色十字架，朝着背景里一个几乎难以辨认的身影走去，那是一个小小的白色基督形象。

They're picking up their white crosses and they're walking towards a figure barely decipherable in the kind of background and it's a little white figure of Christ.

他的身形非常渺小。

He's tiny.

然后他们走上前，把自己的十字架交给基督。

And they're walking up and they're giving their crosses to Christ.

在那之后，他们从他身旁走过，进入一片宁静的景致中，那地方就是沃特希普荒原，距离小教堂所在的位置很近。

And after that, they walk past him into kind of a peaceful landscape, which is Watership Down, which is near near where the chapel is located.