革命：伊朗、布拉格之春与齐奥塞斯库的倒台 | 历史影像

大家好。

Hi, everybody.

欢迎来到《休息的历史》。

Welcome to The Rest History.

我是多米尼克，非常高兴为我们的‘休息即历史’俱乐部会员推出我们最新的独家迷你系列。

It's Dominic here, and I'm thrilled to be unveiling our latest exclusive miniseries for our Rest is History club members.

我们将深入探讨摄影的历史，特别是摄影如何揭示历史。

We will be plunging into the history of photography and in particular what photography tells us about history.

我邀请了我的朋友、杰出的肖像摄影师弗洛伊德，他将为我们讲解一些特定的历史时刻。

I'm joined by my friend, the great portrait photographer, Floyd, who is gonna be talking us through some particular historical moments.

我们将审视革命，比如阿拉伯之春、布拉格之春，以及1989年罗马尼亚的革命。

So we'll be looking at revolutions, the Arab Spring, the Prague Spring, the revolution in Romania in 1989.

我们还会谈论音乐，比如蓝调、大卫·鲍伊等等。

We'll be talking about music, so the blues, David Bowie, and so on.

我们将关注时尚，以及摄影在时尚变革中所扮演的角色。

We'll be looking at fashion and the role that photography has played in the transformation of fashion.

最后，我们还会探讨科技如何改变摄影，以及摄影反过来如何影响了我们看待历史的方式。

And finally, we'll be talking about technology, how technology has changed photography, and how photography has in turn affected the way that we see history.

这真是一系列精彩的内容。

So this is a brilliant series.

非常有趣。

It's a lot of fun.

我们非常希望尽可能多的人加入我们，和我以及克里斯一起观看这个系列，探讨近年来一些最具标志性的影像。

We would love as many people as possible, to join up and to see this series with me and Chris talking about some of the most iconic images in recent history.

在第一集中，我们将聚焦于革命，这里有一个精彩的片段。

And in this first episode, we are looking at revolutions, and here is a lovely little clip.

伊朗。

Iran.

对。

Right.

我们又回到伊朗了。

We're back to Iran again.

是的。

Yeah.

所以是1979年。

So 1979.

所以对于这些，我真正想做的其实是。

So what I've really tried to do with these Yeah.

如果你对这个主题感兴趣，谁是最好地定义了这个主题的摄影师？

Is give you if you if you're interested in this subject, who is the photographer that best defines that that subject?

对。

Right.

对于我们要讨论的这四场革命，我分别为每一场挑选了一位摄影师。

And I've picked one one photographer for each of the four revolutions that we're

是的。

Yeah.

我们接下来要讨论的正是这些。

We're going to cover here.

所以1979年的伊朗，你真正应该关注的是一个名叫阿巴斯的人。

So Iran '79, the the person you really wanna look at is a man called well, he was known by a singular name Abbas.

对。

Right.

他的全名是阿巴斯·阿塔尔，但 professionally 他被称为阿巴斯。

His full name was Abbas Atar, but he's known professionally as Abbas.

他出生于1944年。

He was born in 1944.

我的意思是，他一生的事业实际上就是记录宗教对人们的影响。

I mean, really, his life's work really was documenting the effect of religion on people.

是的。

Yeah.

这不是很有趣吗？

Isn't that interesting?

是的。

Yeah.

所以他本人是伊朗人。

So so he's Iranian himself.

对吧？

Right?

他出生在伊朗，但后来离开了伊朗，在阿尔及利亚长大。

He was born in Iran, but he left Iran, and then he was he grew up in Algeria.

然后他在……期间返回了伊朗。

And then he returned to Iran during the

我的意思是，作为一个成年人，他大部分人生都生活在巴黎。

I mean, an adult, he he lived most of his life in Paris.

我的意思是，在记录了1979到1980年左右的伊朗革命之后，他实际上被流放了。

I mean and and after he documented the sort of 7980, yeah, Iranian Revolution, he really he was exiled really.

他直到1997年左右才重返伊朗。

He didn't he didn't go back to, Iran until, I think, 1997 was

接下来

the next

他回去的时间。

time he went back.

但在79到80年，他似乎无处不在。

But 7980, he really was he seemed to be he seemed to be everywhere.

我的意思是，我们这里有五张他的照片，但他似乎出现在每一个角落，报道了所有事情，你知道，对于伊朗这样地理上极其辽阔的国家来说，这非同寻常。

I mean, we've got five exam five pictures of his here, but he seemed to be everywhere and covering everything, which, you know, for a huge country like geographic you know, physically huge country like Iran is quite something.

这是霍梅尼。

So this is the Ayatollah.

他是从右数第二个。

He's second from right.

是的。

Yes.

这位是霍梅尼。

And he is This is Khomeini.

他正在呼吁沙里亚·马达里大阿亚图拉，以缓和他们各自追随者之间的紧张关系。

He's calling upon Ayatollah Sharia to Madari to appease tensions between their respective followers.

关于这一点，我知道的就这些了。

That is as much as I know about this.

但好吧。

But Okay.

我在挑选那些真正能传达出当时紧张与戏剧性氛围的照片。

I'm, you know, I'm really picking pictures that really convey the tension and drama of it.

所以霍梅尼回国还不到一年。

So this is Khomeini has been back for just under a year.

事实上，你讲这个故事也提醒了我，实际上，在最初的几年里。

And, actually, I suppose the the the the fact that you're telling that story is a reminder that, actually, for the first oh, actually, for years.

革命最初的两三年里，局势完全处于动荡之中。

For about the first two or three years of the revolution, the revolution is in complete flux.

没人能确定他会赢得多少支持，以及他在新政权中将扮演什么角色。

Nobody knows necessarily the how many he's gonna win and what role he's gonna play in the new regime.

是的。

Yeah.

而且还有其他权力掮客，我想，是暴动者。

And there are other power brokers, I guess, riotollers.

我的意思是，这在某种程度上类似于俄国革命，就像1917年之后那些派系一样。

I mean, it's similar in a way to the Russian revolution, isn't it, in that all those factions after the after 1917.

是的。

Yeah.

这并不明显。

It's not obvious.

现在我们回过头来看，显然很清楚，但我们当时却强加了一种事后之明，觉得好吧。

It's obvious to us now looking back that we impose a pity on it that we think, okay.

这些家伙显然总会赢，但当时没人知道这一点。

These guys are obviously always gonna win, but nobody knows this at the time.

还有不同的伊斯兰团体。

And there are different Islamic groups.

有不同派别的圣战者在街头争斗之类的。

There are different groups of mujahideen kind of fighting for the streets and whatnot.

那么，阿巴斯在场这个事实意味着什么？

And how does I mean, the fact that Abbas is in the room.

是的。

Yeah.

最令人惊讶的是他竟然在场，因为他在这里出现，然后过了六个月左右，他却出现在沙漠里，你知道的，就在美国试图营救人质的时候，我们稍后会讲到。

That's the astonishing thing that he's in the room because he's in the room here, and then at some point I mean, that's six months later that he's out in the desert with this you know, when The US tried to rescue the hostages, which we'll come to in a minute.

但他到处都是。

But he he's he's all over the place.

你知道，他显然人脉极广，消息灵通。

You know, he's he's obviously really well well connected and fed with information.

我不知道他究竟是怎么进到那个房间的。

You know, how he got into that room, don't I have no idea.

是的。

Yeah.

但关键是他们竟然让他进去了，而且他还能够拍照——不只是拍照，他还成功把胶卷带了出来。

But the fact that they they let him in and they also you know, he was able to photograph not only photograph this, but also he got out, and he got he got the film out.

你知道，这些革命时期的照片大多关乎那些必须偷运胶卷的人

You know, this is so much of this these revolution pictures are about people who have to smuggle film

是的

Yeah.

不仅要从房间里偷运出去，还要从整个国家偷运出去。

Out not only out of a room, but out of a country.

是的

Yeah.

你知道吗？

You know?

但对他来说，

But in his

他身为伊朗人、生于伊朗、是穆斯林，这无疑产生了巨大影响。

case, it surely makes a massive difference that he's Iranian, that he's born in Iran, and that he's a Muslim.

是的

Yeah.

所以他有两张牌可以用来应对政权，而西方摄影师却没有这样的优势。

So he's a he has, you know, two cards to play with the regime, I guess, that a Western photographer would not have

确实如此。

to.

但他显然没有在霍梅尼政权那里赢得好感，因为他后来被流放，去巴黎生活了

But he obviously I'd he didn't he didn't endear himself to to the Khomeini regime after that because, you know, by he he ex he was exiled and went off to live in Paris for

是的。

Yeah.

整整十七年。

For seventeen years.

那我们来看看你拍的其他一些照片吧？

So should we look at some of the other photos that you took?

我们当时进行了沙漠行动，也就是‘鹰爪行动’，由查尔斯·贝克威思上校率领，试图用三角洲部队营救人质。

So we did operation we that's the operation in the desert, operation Eagle Claw Eagle Claw, colonel Charlie Beckwith and his attempt to rescue the hostages with Delta Force.

对美国人来说这显然是场灾难，对吉米·卡特的总统任期也是个重大打击。

Obviously, disaster for the Americans and a disaster for Jimmy Carter's presidency.

实际上，直到你给我看之前，我都没见过这张照片。

And, actually, I hadn't seen this until you showed it to me.

没有。

No.

这并不太为人所知。

It's not terribly well known.

所以他去了沙漠，那里真的位于荒无人烟的中心。

So he went out to the desert, and there really is in the middle of nowhere.

你可以在谷歌地图上看看，他拍下了那架直升机残骸的照片。

Look at it on Google Maps and took a photograph of the wreckage of the Yeah.

那架直升机。

Of the helicopter.

我想，这对美国来说是一张充满屈辱的照片。

I guess it's an image of humiliation for The United States.

不是吗？

Is, isn't it?

对美国人来说，这完全是关于羞辱。

For the Americans, it's it's absolutely about the humiliation.

我的意思是，计划再周密也难免有变数。

I mean, it just best laid plans and all that.

所以

So

作为一个画面，它呈现的是坠毁残骸与沙漠的空旷、辽阔地平线之间的对比。

And just as an image, it's the image of the crashed wreckage against the the emptiness, I guess, of the desert and the huge wide horizon.

但我好奇，他们是否因为直升机的实际残骸并不多才来的。

But I wonder if they came because there's not a lot of the the actual body of helicopter there.

你觉得他们会回来摧毁它吗？

Do you think they would have come they they came back and destroyed?

因为美国人一直拥有比任何人都更先进的技术。

Because the Americans have got have always got technology that's better than everybody else's.

哦，不会。

Oh, no.

他们没有回去。

They didn't go back.

他们没有回去。

They didn't go back.

对。

Right.

不。

No.

他们没有回去。

They didn't go back.

他们只是，我的意思是，这太惊人了。

They just I mean, that's the amazing thing.

他们遗弃了那些东西，但直升机里也是，是的。

They abandoned the stuff, but also in the helicopter Yeah.

这是任务的计划。

Were the plans of the mission.

对。

Right.

而伊朗人成功获得了那些烧焦的纸片碎片，并向全世界展示了它们。

And the Iranians were able to get the kind of charred fragments of paper and exhibit them to the world.

我不知道这一点。

That I didn't know that.

这部分，我不知道。

That bit, I didn't know.

所以，是的，我的意思是，这简直是一场更大的灾难。

So, yeah, I mean, it could not have been a greater catastrophe.

然后你还有来自美国大使馆的另一张图片，对吧，其中

And then you've got another image from the US embassy, haven't you, where the

我的意思是，其中一条

I mean, one of

信息正被保存着。

the messages are being are being kept.

是的

Yeah.

这是在大使馆前的暴徒。

This is mob in front of the embassy.

在研究这个并观看大量革命图片时，一个反复出现的主题就是暴徒。

Researching this and looking at a lot of revolution pictures, one of the themes that comes up again and again and again is mobs.

是的

Yeah.

看了很久之后，我意识到任何一个暴徒群体都差不多。

And after a while of looking at this, I realized that one mob is kind of pretty much the same as any other mob.

是的

Yeah.

关于暴徒，这一点成为了美国人眼中伊朗革命的典型形象。

The thing about the mob, right, that that becomes the image for the certainly for the Americans of the Iranian Revolution.

我认为伊朗革命对美国国内舆论产生如此大影响的原因在于它的异质性。

I think the reason the Iranian Revolution had such an impact on US domestic opinion was the otherness of it.

是的。

Yeah.

所以是留着胡子的男人。

So it's men with beards.

你知道，照片里有那些看起来令人敬畏的神职人员和宗教学者，和阿亚图拉们在一起。

You know, we've got the forbidding looking priests and sort of clerics in the photo with the Ayatollahs.

然后这张照片，那种狂热的氛围，我认为对人们来说——比如你坐在威斯康星州看电视或者翻开报纸——会感到不安，因为他们没有意识到那种对沙阿的强烈情绪，还有宗教层面的因素。

And then this picture, it's the sort of frenzy of it that I think for people, you know, if you're sitting in Wisconsin watching on TV or something or opening on newspaper, that's what people found unsettling because they didn't appreciate that the, I guess, the strength of feeling, the fervor against the shah, but also the religious dimension.

是的。

Yeah.

阿巴斯专长于。

Abbas was specialized in.

但阿亚图拉是怎么做到的？他怎么能引导并利用这种狂热？

But how did the Ayatollah how was it possible for him to enable this kind of to channel this this road?

因为你们经常读到的一点是，伊朗人是波斯人。

Because the one of the things you read a lot about is how, you know, Iranians are Persians.

是的。

Yeah.

他们不是阿拉伯人。

They're not Arabs.

是的。

Yeah.

他怎么能利用这种存在于一个波斯民族而非阿拉伯国家中的伊斯兰狂热呢？

How was he able to kind of take this find this this sort of Islamic fervor within a country that's Persian and not?

你知道吗？

You know?

我觉得，他们特有的伊斯兰教派，也就是什叶派。

Well, I think, their particular brand of Islam, so Shia.

什叶派。

Shia.

他们处于围困之中，被逊尼派包围，这一点对理解伊朗人的心理至关重要。

The fact that they're embattled and they're surrounded by Sunnis is obviously very important to explaining Iranian mentality.

我认为宗教和民族主义在这里融合在了一起。

And it's it's where I think religion and nationalism kind of fuse.

是的。

Yeah.

这些抗议活动，这些大规模的街头示威，早在他流亡期间就一直在进行。

These protests, these enormous street demonstrations have been going while he was in exile.

因此，从1978年起，每隔四十天，人们都会为上一批被枪杀的人举行葬礼，随后又会有另一批四十天后，街头涌出大量人群。

So they've been building and building every forty days in 1978 with the funerals of the last people who'd been shot, then there would be another forty days later, huge crowds on the streets.

沙阿的秘密警察会再枪杀一些人。

The Shah's secret police would shoot some more people.

对。

Yeah.

这意味着四十天后，又会有一批葬礼，以及另一场大规模的愤怒爆发。

That meant that forty days later, there will be another set of funerals and another of these enormous sort of outpourings of rage.

我认为，其中一部分能量来源于这种对比——这些人群如此激昂，充满激情，某种程度上甚至失去了控制。

And I think some of the energy to me comes from the the contrast between these people who are so fired up and are so there's such passion and such a sort of loss of control in a way.

然后，这种能量通过一个代表禁欲与克制的人被集中起来。

And then that is being focused through somebody who's the incarnation of austerity and control.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，霍梅尼在1979年初返回时，乘坐飞机时，彼得·詹宁斯问他：‘你感觉如何？’

You know, the Ayatollah, when Khomeini returns at the beginning of 1979, and he says famously on the plane to Peter Jennings as his coming in, Peter Jennings says, what do you feel?

你有什么感受？

What are feeling?

他回答说：‘我什么感觉都没有。’

And he says, I feel nothing.

那种冷漠、自我克制的特质，以一种奇特的方式，让他显得超凡脱俗。

And there's something about the sort of the coldness, the self control that in a weird way well, it makes him kind of otherworldly.

是的。

Yeah.

这让他看起来神圣无比。

It makes him seem holy.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为，他没有屈服于他们那样的激情，这一点反而让他成为更强烈的兴奋焦点。

And I think that almost the fact that he's not giving in to the same passions that they are, it makes him an even greater focus for excitement.

人们确实把他看作一位圣人。

People do view him as a kinda holy man

是的。

Yeah.

他被视为一种不变的、真实的伊朗的象征，而沙阿却背叛了这种精神，我想。

And as and as the the emblem of a kind of unchanging, authentic Iran that the shah had betrayed, I guess.

是的。

Yeah.

沙阿太西方化了，而且腐败，诸如此类的问题。

The shah was too western, and the shah was corrupt, and all of these kinds of things.

因此，人们把所有这些期望投射到了霍梅尼看似一张白纸的形象上。

And so people projected all of this onto the sort of what appeared to be the kind of blank slate of Khomeini.

是的。

Yeah.

然后他确实很务实，很精于算计，冷酷无情地利用这种形象，利用它来铲除对手，建立自己的权力，这一点往往被低估了。

And then he was, you know, I think it's underappreciated how pragmatic, how calculating, how cold blooded he was in kind of using that, tapping it, eliminating his rivals, and and building his power.

因为从这种直观感受中你还会发现，其实只需要人口中非常小的一部分人——是的。

Because the other thing you also get from this eye sense is that it takes actually quite a small in a population, it takes quite a small percentage of people Yeah.

只要他们足够狂热——是的。

Who if they are if they are fervent enough Yeah.

并且足够有动力。

And motivated enough.

你知道，看看如今西欧的政治，真正愿意加入政党的热情人群其实非常少。

You know, it's like if you look at politics in Western Europe now, it's really a very small number of people that are passionate enough to really wanna join a political party these days.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Of course.

就是这一点。

And it's that thing.

如果你有一小部分人坚定且愿意全力以赴，你就能做成很多事情。

If you have a small number of people who are committed and willing to go all the way, you can you can do a lot

当然。

of Of course.

你能做成很多事情。

You can do a lot.

不过，人群规模非常庞大。

The crowds are enormous, though.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，人群非常庞大。

I mean, the crowds are vast.

我的意思是，有时候街头会有数百万人。

I mean, we're talking about millions of people sometimes on the streets.

我的意思是，我认为他确实触动了某种东西。

I mean, it really is I think he tapped something.

这不仅仅关乎一小群极端分子。

It's not just about a small group of extremists.

我认为他触动了某种东西，一种感觉，你知道，过去十年里国家发生了巨大变化，事情失控了，人们渴望一种保障感，他们认为那是传统价值观、团结感，所有这些他们觉得他和他的派系提供了。

I think he tapped something a sense that, you know, the country had changed so much in the previous ten years, things spiraling out of control, and people yearned for a kind of reassurance, traditional they thought it was traditional values, Sense of solidarity, all of those kinds of things they felt that he and his, sort of faction offered.

你那张阿巴斯的最后照片在哪里？

What about the last photo that you've got of Abbas?

这是武装的毛拉们经过霍梅尼家的画面。

This is armed mullahs marching past the Ayatollah's house.

我觉得我喜欢这张照片的地方是，伊朗革命期间拍了很多照片。

I think what I like about this, so there there were lots of photos taken in Iranian Revolution.

我的意思是，摄影师总是被那些穿着黑色长袍的女性吸引。

I mean, photographers were always drawn to the women in their kind of black cloaks and and their.

我的意思是，那个时代很多图像确实让西方人感到不安，因为他们将其视为对女性压迫的一部分，这也可以理解。

I mean, so much of the sort of the imagery of that was really unsettling to Westerners because they saw it as part of the oppression of women more understandably.

但有趣的是，这些照片中女性的身影如此突出。

But it's interesting how prominent women are of now in these photos.

是的。

Yeah.

阿巴斯拍了很多伊朗女性的精彩照片，是的。

Abbas has a lot of great pictures of Iranian women Yeah.

你知道，她们大多数时候都穿着那样的衣服。

You know, all dressed more often than not like that.

我们拍过一张她们进行射击训练的绝佳照片，是的。

There's a very there's a great picture we took of them doing target practice Yeah.

拿着枪。

With the guns.

用枪。

With guns.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为令人不安的是这种克制的视觉呈现，不是吗？

I think what's unsettling about it is the display of austerity, visual austerity, isn't it?

我的意思是，这张照片的方方面面都体现了一种克制，对吧？

I mean, everything about that picture represents a form of austerity, doesn't it?

没人微笑。

Nobody's smiling.

是的。

Yeah.

每个人都面无表情。

Everybody's grim faced.

是的。

Yeah.

我还能问一个关于阿巴斯和他的伊朗革命照片的问题吗？

Can I ask one more question about Abbas and his photographs of Iranian Revolution?

你认为这些照片是黑白的，这一点有多重要？

How important is it do you think that they are black and white?

正是这些黑白图像让人久久难以忘怀。

It's the black and white images that seem to linger in the mind of that.

我的意思是，是的，因为它们本质上是单色调的场景，对吧？

I mean, yeah, because because they are it's essentially they're they're monotonal scenes, aren't they?

你知道，人们穿着黑色的衣服，是的。

You know, there's people in black Yeah.

还有白色，那里几乎没有颜色。

And white, and there's very little color there.

你知道吗？

You know?

如果你看那张彩色的照片，实际上几乎没有什么颜色。

If you look at the color one, I mean, there's almost there's no actual color.

我的意思是，这里某处有一点点蓝色的闪光。

I mean, there's a tiny flash of blue somewhere here.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

所有人都穿着黑色。

Everyone's in black.

我的意思是，就是这样。

I mean, that's it.

其他人都穿着黑色。

Everyone else is in black.

在我们进入下一场革命之前，我能问你个简单的问题吗？

Can I just ask you a quick question before we move on to the next revolution?

那么，在摄影中，黑白与彩色之间的张力，总的来说，为什么现在的摄影师会选择黑白照片呢？

So the tension between black and white and color in photography, By and large, why is it that a photographer now would choose black and white?

因为很多时候，我们即将观看的许多照片都是黑白的，而它们拍摄的时代其实已经可以拍彩色照片了。

Because often so many of the photographs that we're gonna be looking at are black and white, and they're taken in an age when color was possible.

是的。

Yeah.

所以摄影师为什么选择黑白摄影呢？

So why do photographers what is what's that

从实际角度来看。

choice as of practical things.

首先，黑白胶片的冲洗和打印要简单得多，对吧。

One, which was you could process and print print black and white film much more easily Right.

在酒店的浴室里就可以。

In a hotel room bathroom.

你可以。

You can

在酒店浴室里搭建一个暗房，进行冲洗和打印。

build a dark room in a hotel room bathroom and process and print.

彩色胶片则要复杂得多。

Color is much, much, much more difficult to to do.

此外，还有当时报纸之类的东西。

And then also, you know, you have things like newspapers of the time.

你知道，除了像《时代》杂志和《生活》杂志这样的刊物，当时大多数报纸其实并不印刷彩色图片。

You know, apart from you have things like Time Magazine and Life Magazine, you know, most newspapers then print didn't really print color.

是的。

No.

当然。

Of course.

现在。

Today

1986年。

1986.

埃迪·沙阿是第一家采用彩色印刷的英国报纸。

Eddie Shah was the first first British newspaper in color.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以在此之前，实际上并没有这方面的需要。

So until then, there was actually no need for it.

你知道吗？

You know?

如果你在处理硬新闻，而这正是很多内容的核心，是的。

If you're dealing with if you're supplying hard news, which is fundamentally what a lot of this is Yeah.

那里没有需求，也没有市场。

There's there's no mark there's no market

为了

for

它。

it

要更多。

to be more.

还有一个我之前从没想过的问题，直到你刚才提到。

One other question, which has never occurred to me before until you were just talking.

所以像阿巴斯这样去伊朗拍照片的人，或者去越南或其他地方的人，他们其实从来不是为了出书而这么做。

So someone like Abbas who goes to Iran to do these photos or indeed the people who go to Vietnam or whatever, they're never doing this really with a book in mind, particularly.

他们考虑的是短期客户，比如我会把这些照片卖给《时代》杂志、《华盛顿邮报》或其他媒体。

They're thinking about short term clients, as in, I will sell these to to the Time Magazine or The Washington Post or whoever.

这才是他们的计划。

That's the the plan.

如果后来真的出了书，那也只是偶然的后续结果。

And if the book does come of that, that's an accident that comes later.

是的。

Yeah.

但关键是，这种短期的

But the point is that the sort of the short term

这些人的行为更可能是出于记录的需要，因为他们觉得这些事情必须被记录下来。

transaction of these people were probably much more focused on documenting things because they felt that they needed to be documented.

他们并非一定被日常的

They were driven by not necessarily driven by the daily

明白了。

Okay.

为报纸提供图片的枯燥工作。

Grind of of supplying an image to the paper.

我认为阿巴斯一生都被宗教题材所吸引，他一直对宗教项目充满兴趣。

I think Abbas is someone who is was drawn to religious projects his whole life where he was drawn to religious projects.

我的意思是，他做过关于犹太教、基督教、印度教和佛教的项目。

I mean, he did projects on Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，他在9·11事件后，花了七年时间研究激进伊斯兰教，准确地说是吉哈德主义，是的。

I mean, he did a seven year project on militant Islam after on on sorry, on jihadism Yeah.

在9·11事件之后。

After nine eleven.

他花了七年时间，在16个国家记录了这一主题。

He spent seven years documenting that in 16 countries.

对。

Yeah.

哇。

Wow.

所以这变成了一种热情项目，对吧。

So it becomes a sort of passion project Yeah.

无论从哪个角度看，这几乎肯定上瘾，你会不断去寻找另一个冲突，或者去寻求

As much as anything, and almost probably quite addictive that you seek out another conflict or you seek

另一个，总是有更多事情要做，不是吗？

out another always more to do, isn't there?

感谢你收听，或者如果你确实在观看的话，感谢你观看。

Thank you for listening or watching if you were indeed watching.

现在，如果你想观看这一集的其余部分，以及未来三周内即将推出的这部宏大系列的其他剧集，你只需要前往restishistory.com并注册加入俱乐部。

Now if you want to see the rest of that episode and the other episodes that are coming in this tremendous series in the next three weeks, then all you need to do is to head to the restishistory.com and sign up to join the club.

你不仅能获得我和克里斯·弗洛伊德带来的这部精彩系列，还能获得一系列难以置信的福利。

And not only will you get this terrific series with me and Chris Floyd, you will get a host of unbelievable benefits.

接下来，克里斯和我将在下周讨论摄影与音乐，所以一定要回来观看，别错过。

Now Chris and I will be back next week to talk about photography and music, so make sure you come back for that and don't miss out.

那就以这个重磅消息告一段落，再见。

And on that bombshell, bye bye.