550. 法拉奇的巨额财富会成为他的致命弱点吗？

就在本周，奈杰尔·法拉奇宣布了他作为议员收到的最大一笔款项。

Just this week Nigel Farage declared his biggest single payment yet as an MP.

他从一名黄金经销商那里拿到了27万英镑，工作时间只有十二小时。

£270,000 for twelve hours of work from a gold bullion dealer.

折合每小时2万2千5百英镑，是九个月前同一家公司付给他报酬的两倍。

That works out at 22 and a half thousand pounds an hour, which is double what the same company paid him just nine months earlier.

而这笔钱来得并不久，就在之前，法拉奇刚接受了来自一位住在泰国的加密货币亿万富翁的500万英镑馈赠。

And it comes not long after Nigel Farage was found and accepted £5,000,000 as a gift from a crypto billionaire who lives in Thailand.

这个人可是靠着扮演普通英国人、被遗忘群体的代言人，一路建立起自己的政治生涯的。

This is the man who built his entire political career on being the voice of ordinary, left behind Britons.

他标榜自己是人民的代表，为人民发声。

The man of the people fighting for the people.

如今却成了英国历史上最富有的政客之一。

Now one of the wealthiest politicians in British history.

那我们是怎么走到这一步的？

So how do we get here?

一个自称代表普通工薪阶层的政党，怎么反而吸引了全球最富有的人给它捐款？

How has a party supposedly for the ordinary working man and woman ended up attracting money from some of the richest people in the world?

这些人捐钱，是希望换回什么？

And what do they expect in return?

自从我们播出《谁在资助改革》这四集迷你系列后，收到了大量问题，现在是时候来回答一些了。

We've been inundated with questions following our four part miniseries on Who Funds Reform, so it's time that we answer some.

本集由Fuse能源公司赞助。

This episode is powered by Fuse Energy.

目前，Fuse能源的电价比英国能源监管机构设定的上限还要低多达200英镑。

Right now, Fuse Energy's tariffs are up to £200 below the Ofgem price cap.

而且他们刚推出了一项推荐奖励计划，能让你的账单再降一截。

Plus, they've just launched a new referral offer that can bring your bill down even further.

我最喜欢的就是它的简单明了。

What I love is the simplicity of it.

如果你推荐一个朋友——就是那些还没从我们这儿听说Fuse的人——只要他们把燃气和电力都转到Fuse，

If you refer a friend, one of those few people who haven't heard about Fuse from us every week, and they switch both their gas and electricity, electricity.

你们每人可以获得50英镑抵扣下一期账单。

You each get £50 towards your next bill.

这一切始于一次简单的对话。

So it starts with one conversation.

没有抽奖，没有运气成分，也没有复杂的奖励机制，只靠一个明智的推荐，让你和朋友都能受益。

No price draws, no chance, no complicated reward scheme, just the power of one smart recommendation that rewards you both.

记住，如今能源价格比以往任何时候都更不稳定，别再等电价再次飙升了。

And remember, energy prices are more volatile than ever, but don't wait for rates to spike again.

只需三分钟，切换到Fuse，选择更便宜的能源方案，帮你和朋友一起节省开支。

Switch to Fuse in just three minutes and move to cheaper energy designed to help you and your friends cut bills.

别再听别人讲什么价格上限的故事了。

So don't just listen to another price cap story.

赶紧切换到Fuse吧。

Switch to Fuse.

最多可省200英镑，使用代码politics在fuseenergy.com/politics注册，还能免费获得TRIP服务。

Save up to £200 and get TRIP plus free with code politics at fuseenergy.com/politics.

欢迎收听《政治的余波》，我是奥利斯泰尔·坎贝尔，今天邀请到凯特·尼兰，她是本系列的记者，过去十年一直作为记者追踪威斯敏斯特的动态。

Welcome to the rest of politics with me, Alastair Campbell, and joining me to answer your questions on our member series is Cat Neilan, who is the reporter on the series and who's been following Westminster as a journalist for the past ten years.

凯特，我们先聊聊这500万英镑的捐赠问题。

So Cat, let's start with these questions on the £5,000,000 gift.

海迪问，还有记者继续深挖这500万英镑的捐赠吗？还是说，法拉奇已经把它轻描淡写带过去了，现在没什么可挖的了？

Heidi, are there any journalists still digging into the £5,000,000 gift, or is there now little else to find out now that Farage has brushed it aside?

塔兹问，这500万英镑的捐款事件有没有损害奈杰尔·法拉奇和改革党的形象？

Taz, has the £5,000,000 donation story harmed Nigel Farage and Reform's brand?

萨拉问，你认为法拉奇这500万英镑的捐款会对改革党的受欢迎程度产生多大影响？

Sarah, how much of an impact do you think Farage's £5,000,000 donation will have on Reform's popularity?

我刚才念了三个问题，其实我们收到了大量类似的提问。

The reason I just read out three of those, we had tons of questions from people.

这500万英镑的捐赠——不管你怎么称呼它——真的引发了巨大关注。

This 5,000,000 gift, bung, whatever you wanna call it, really has broken through.

所以，凯特，这件事还有没有更多内幕？你认为它对改革党造成了多大伤害？

So is there much more to find out, Cat, and what do you think the damage, if any, has been to reform?

是的。

Yeah.

你好，阿利斯泰尔。

Hi, Alastair.

非常感谢你邀请我参加这个节目。

And thank you so much for having me on the show.

首先，我们收到了克里斯托弗·哈伯恩律师发来的信，对一些内容提出了异议。

So firstly, we got a letter from Christopher Harbourn's lawyers complaining about various things.

其中一点是，我们之前用‘捐赠’这个词来描述这笔钱，而不是‘礼物’，但实际上改革党的政客们自己也用过‘捐赠’这个说法。

But one of them was the fact that we had described it as a donation rather than a gift, even though actually reform politicians have described it as a donation.

因此，我们此后一直严格使用‘礼物’这个表述。

So we have scrupulously since kept to the description of it as a gift.

这可是他们自己的用词。

That is their words.

我们一个一个来回答这些问题。

Taking the questions one at a time.

是的，仍然有不少记者正在深入调查这件事。

Yes, there are definitely journalists still doing digging around it.

当然，我们都要记住，正是因为《卫报》的记者们，尤其是艾萨克的辛勤工作，我们才得知了这件事，因为这笔款项根本没被申报，显然也没打算申报。

Of course, we should all remember that it was only because of the hard work of journalists specifically and Isaac at The Guardian that we even know about this because it was not declared and clearly there was no plan to declare it.

所以这个故事很难做，毕竟涉及个人财务信息，而相关信源本来就很少。

So it is a very, very difficult story to to do because, of course, it requires knowledge of someone's personal finances, and there's not that many sources around it.

但自从这则新闻曝光后，公众对奈杰尔·法拉奇本人以及改革党的资金来源展开了更严密的审视。

But since this story has broken, there has been even greater scrutiny on Nigel Farage specifically and reform more generally looking at where they're getting their money from.

当然，一个至今未解的问题是：这是否是他当选议员前那段时期收到的唯一一笔款项。

Of course, the question as far unanswered whether this is the only sum that he received in that sort of period before he became an MP.

有趣的是，议会内部现在正推动采取行动，试图迫使这个问题得到澄清。

Interestingly, there are moves afoot within parliament to try and force that issue.

目前议会正在审议一项法案，俗称《选举法案》。

So there is a bill currently going through parliament at the minute known sort of colloquially as the elections bill.

它的正式名称是《人民代表法案》，不过说实话，我不太喜欢这个叫法。

The actual title is the representation of the people bill, which is not a name that I'm hugely fond of myself.

那我们就叫它选举法案吧。

So let's call it the elections bill.

现在有一项修正案被提出，要求议员申报在当选议员前十二个月内收到的所有尚未明确的款项，因为这些规定可能存在不同解读。

And there is an amendment that has been put down which would force MPs to declare sums of money as yet undetermined what sums that they had received in the twelve months before becoming an MP, because there are different ways that it could be interpreted.

大多数人认为，他确实违反了行为准则，目前标准专员正在对此展开调查。

Most people do think that he has fallen foul of the code of conduct and this investigation currently being carried out by the standards commissioner.

很多人觉得，这项调查最终会认定他本应申报这笔款项。

Many people feel that will actually find that he should have declared it.

这可能会迫使他进一步公开更多信息。

And that may force the issue and force him to declare more.

但如果调查没有结果，立法层面也正在推进另一项措施来实现这一点。

But if not, there is this legislative move also being pursued to do that.

这或许是获取更多信息最直接的方式之一。

And that is perhaps one of the more straightforward ways to to get more of that information out.

当然，上周纳吉尔·法拉奇在长达很长时间后首次露面，几乎是他自五百万英镑事件曝光以来第一次接受提问。

And, of course, we saw last week Nigel Farage pop his head up above the parapet for the first time in a very long time, pretty much one of the first times he's taken questions since the £5,000,000 was reported.

他态度特别僵硬。

And he was very brittle.

他一直说这不关别人的事。

He kept saying it's nobody's business.

我拿这笔钱干什么，别人没资格过问。

It's nobody's business what I spend it on.

没人关心。

Nobody cares.

没人关心。

Nobody cares.

没人关心。

Nobody cares.

没人关心。

Nobody cares.

我想买辆车，那是我的自由。

I can spend it on cars if I want to.

我甚至都不必把钱花在安保上，这也凸显了另一个问题——我从和纳吉尔·法拉奇身边一些政党人士的交谈中逐渐察觉到，他们意识到，随着压力增大，他越来越表现出情绪脆弱的一面。

I don't even have to spend it on security, which also kind of highlighted another issue that I have been kind of picking up from speaking to various people around Nigel Farage working in the party, which is that they are conscious that he has increasingly under pressure been shown himself to be quite thin skinned.

也许有人还记得，当初有人指控他存在反犹太主义倾向的时候。

So people might remember when the antisemitism allegations were made about him.

他当时的回应非常对抗、极具攻击性，尤其是针对女记者。

His response to that was very combative, very aggressive, particularly towards female journalists.

我知道至少有一位改革党的议员事后向那位女记者道歉了，因为他实在为纳吉尔·法拉奇的反应感到羞愧。

And I know that at least one reform MP actually apologized to the female journalist in question because he felt so kind of ashamed, I suppose, at the way that Nigel Farage had responded.

我觉得这些做法很大程度上是从特朗普那里学来的。

I think a lot of this is learned from Trump.

纳吉尔·法拉奇和改革党的很多策略都非常特朗普式，这套办法在特朗普身上确实管用一阵子。

A lot of Nigel Farage and reform strategy is very, very Trumpian, and it it works up to a point for Trump.

我最大的希望是，这套办法在这里行不通——人们其实并不喜欢看他暴露出这种脆弱。

My big hope is that it won't work here, that actually people don't like it when he shows that brittleness.

就像你提到的，那些采访中，他有段时间几乎销声匿迹了。

It was interesting in those interviews, as you say, he went kind of to ground for quite a while.

他明显在躲着媒体。

He was clearly avoiding the media.

平时只要摄像机在场，他连拆个信封都要现身。

Normally, you know, he'll turn up the opening of an envelope as long as there's a camera there.

他对女记者尤其敏感易怒。

And he was particularly brittle with the female journalists.

尤其是BBC的莎莉·诺根，我觉得特别明显。

It was Sally Neugent on the BBC, I felt, in particular.

就连朱莉娅·哈特利·布劳尔，平时可是纳吉尔·法拉奇的铁杆支持者。

And then even Julia Hartley Brewer is normally a sort of big flag waver for Nigel Farage.

他玩起了‘没人关心’那一套。

He was doing that nobody cares thing.

特朗普嘛，他老说这些事儿根本没人在意。

And the Trump you know, Trump basically says nobody cares about this stuff.

他本人就公开说过，第二任期可以更肆无忌惮，因为第一任期他发现根本没人在乎。

He's actually on record as saying that you know, effectively saying, I can be more corrupt in the second term because I realized nobody cared about it in the first term.

那你觉得我们现在更在意了吗？

Now do you think we care more?

你觉得议会方面会认真对待这件事，让调查走完全部流程，甚至可能触发补选吗？

And is your sense that the parliamentary authorities care sufficiently for this to kind of go the full course and possibly even create a by election?

跟一些参与过鲍里斯·约翰逊派对门调查的人聊过，挺有意思的，因为那是我们最近一次重大的行为准则调查。

It's interesting speaking to some of the people that were involved in the Boris Johnson party gate inquiry because that is probably the most recent big standards inquiry that we had.

虽然这事和现在的情况很不一样，但参与过那次调查，还有其他类似案件的人普遍认为，他不仅违反了行为准则，而且涉及金额巨大、持续时间又长，这些因素都非常严重，很可能足以让建议的停职处分直接触发补选。

And although a very different issue, people that worked on that and some people that had worked on other cases do feel that not only that has he broken the code of conduct, but the size of the sum and the period in which it was given are are such kind of huge strong factors that the suspension that, may be recommended would be enough to trigger a by election.

不过话说回来，上周五我去了克莱克顿，那天是一年中最热的一天，海边人很多，但很多克莱克顿的居民根本没听说过这事。

But that said, I did go down to Clacton on Friday, hottest day of the year, lots of people out on the seafront, and many people in Clacton had not heard about it.

真的吗？

Wow.

有意思的是，即使我跟他们讲了这件事，很多人还是说：‘这太恶心了。’

Interestingly, even when I explained the story to them, many people said that's disgusting.

他就是个小偷。

He's a thief.

真是虚伪至极。

What a hypocrite.

我觉得，不管什么政治立场的人，听到这种事都会做出类似的反应。

All the kind of responses that I think many people, regardless of their political persuasion, would have to that kind of story.

但你接着问他们：如果真要举行补选，这会改变你的看法吗？

But then you say to them, well, if there is a by election, would it change your perspective?

会改变你的投票选择吗？

Would it change the way you vote?

结果最好的情况，也不过是有人说他们还在犹豫。

And actually, at best, I got was people saying they were on the fence.

而当他们犹豫时，更多是因为他没做好本地事务，而不是那五百万英镑的事。

And when they were on the fence, it was more about his failure to do things locally rather than this 5,000,000.

我觉得问题在于，对很多人来说，政治家和政治都离得太远了，他们觉得整个体系都烂透了。

And I think the problem is that for many people, politicians, politics feels so far away, and they do feel sort of a plague on all their houses.

没一个好人。

Everyone is bad.

人人都在这么做。

Everyone is at it.

但我还是比其他人更喜欢他一点，或者说，我最不讨厌他。

But I I kind of like him a bit more than I like everyone else or I hate him least of all.

这就是我在克莱克顿采访的人们普遍持有的看法。

And so that is the sort of prevailing kind of world view of the people at Clacton that I spoke to.

不过你看，我们今天是星期二，今天《金融时报》爆出了一则新闻。

But if you look at this so, like, we're recording this on, Tuesday, and the Financial Times has broken a story today.

改革英国党的领导人奈杰尔·法拉奇，作为议员收到了一笔高达27万英镑的最大单笔付款，来自一家贵金属经销商，是他原先费用的两倍多。

Reform UK leader, Nigel Farage, has declared his biggest single payment as an MP, £270,000 from a bullion dealer doubling his fee from $20.25.

我的意思是，难道人们最终不会意识到吗？这个自称代表普通人、为穷人和被遗忘者发声的人，实际上在议员任上赚得盆满钵满。

I mean, surely, eventually, it gets through to people that this guy who presents himself as a man of the people fighting for them, fighting for the poor and downtrodden and those who've been left behind, He's absolutely minting it as an MP.

他的兼职收入在议会里遥遥领先，远超其他人。

He is by some distance the best paid outside earner in parliament.

是的。

Yes.

这还没算上那些我们根本不知道的金额呢。

And that's before we even get to the sums that we don't know about.

我们早就一直在追踪他的收入情况了。

We've been obviously tracking his payments for a very long time.

我们有个叫‘威斯敏斯特账目’的工具，能把所有数据都汇总起来。

We have a tool called the Westminster accounts, which collates all of the data.

从这些数据可以看出，自上届选举以来，这家叫‘直通金条’的公司已经给了奈杰尔·法拉奇68.5万英镑。

And you can see from that that this company, Direct Bullion, has actually given Nigel Farage £685,000 since last election.

但这还不是他最大的金主。

That's not actually his biggest employer.

到目前为止，GB新闻给他的钱还比这多出十万左右。

GB News pays him about 100,000 more than that so far.

不过如果你算算他为直通金条工作的时间，我去年就做过一次分析。

But if you look at it in terms of the hours that he spends working for direct bullion, I actually did a piece last year.

即便那时候，他的时薪都比英超顶级球员还高。

And even then, he was better paid than top flight Premier League footballers.

所以你能看出，人们花的钱到底换来了多少价值。

So you can see just sort of how much people are getting for their money.

去年我特意采访了这家公司的老板，就是想当面问他这个问题。

And I actually interviewed the boss of this company last year because I wanted to put that exact question to him.

你觉得你花这笔钱，到底得到了什么？

You know, what do you think you're getting for the money?

那番对话挺有意思的。

It was an interesting conversation.

他非常坦诚。

He was very forthcoming.

他似乎觉得，正是因为奈杰尔·法拉奇这个品牌代言人，公司的生意才更好了。

He he seems to think that the business is doing better because of the brand ambassador that Nigel Farage offers.

但他还说了一件事，我觉得特别耐人寻味：只要他打电话，奈杰尔都会亲自接。

But he also said something which I thought was quite telling, which was that, whenever he calls, Nigel answers the phone.

这对做生意的人来说当然有帮助，但如果你在考虑他未来可能当上首相，这一点就更关键了。

And that's helpful if you're running a business, but it's also helpful if you're looking ahead to the possibility that he might be the prime minister at some point.

还有值得一提的是，这个叫保罗·威瑟斯的人，还是Stack BTC公司的幕后人物，而奈杰尔·法拉奇也参与其中——那是一家打着加密货币国库旗号的公司。

And the other thing that's worth noting about, this guy, Paul Withers, is that he's also behind the company Stack BTC, which Nigel Farage is also involved in, the quasi quateng linked crypto treasury company.

就连奈杰尔身边的一些人，也开始对他参与这类事情感到不安，他们担心这会模糊界限：他到底是在真心倡导加密货币作为打破体制的平等工具，还是纯粹为了个人牟利，毕竟他从中赚钱。

And even people around Nigel Farage are starting to get a little bit wary of his involvement with things like this because they worry that it, in their view, muddies the waters between what they see as a sort of genuine policy belief that he he advocates for crypto as a kind of leveler and a sort of way of of breaking away from the establishment versus being seen to be sort of privately motivated, because he's making money out of it.

所以，奈杰尔身边有些人并不认同他这么做，但不一定是他本人这么想。

So some of the people around Nigel see that not necessarily himself.

不过，你一直都说，从政哪能赚钱，尤其是如果你走的是正道的话。

But of course, as you always used to say, there's no money in politics, certainly not if you're straight.

再说回我去克拉克顿那趟，当时跟选区里的人聊天，我特别清楚的一点是，他们对克里斯托弗·哈伯恩给的那五百万英镑其实并不太在意。

But also kind of going back to that trip to Clacton when I was speaking to people in his constituency, what was really clear to me was that they didn't hugely mind about the £5,000,000 from Christopher Harbourn.

他们觉得这跟基尔·斯塔默刚上台时拿到的免费眼镜和西装差不多，都是那种长期占据新闻头条的事儿。

They put it in the same kind of vein as the free glasses and suits that Kieron Starmer got right at the start of his time in power that sort of dominated the news for a very long time.

其实金额大小根本不是重点。

And it doesn't matter necessarily that the sums involved are so different.

但我在克拉克顿接触的很多人，心里都有一种感觉：唉，反正大家都是一个圈子里的。

But to many of the people that I spoke in Clacton, there was very much a sense that, oh, well, they're all in it together.

所有政客不都是想捞快钱吗？他能从中赚更多，倒也无可厚非。

All the politicians are just trying to make a quick buck, you know, kind of fair play to him for making more out of it.

我觉得这反映的其实是人们对政治整体的失望，而不是针对某个具体的政客。

I do think that it's more symptomatic of how people feel about politics as a whole rather than politicians as individuals.

不过话说回来，他们在国家层面的势头明显放缓了。

But that being said, it's pretty clear that on a national level, things are slowing down for them.

今天早上公布的益普索民调显示，他们的支持率下降了一个百分点。

So there was a YouGov poll out this morning showing that they were down one percentage point.

工党则上升了几个百分点。

Labor were up a couple of percentage points.

但即便如此，改革党在民调中依然领先。

But that being said, reform is still leading in the polls.

保守党和工党现在都停在了百分之二十。

Tories and labor now are both on 20.

当然，支持率小幅下滑也在预料之中，毕竟都有反弹后的自然回落。

They are narrowing slightly, of course, you know, expected burn and bounce.

但改革党的支持率下滑，可能跟这五十亿英镑有关，也跟他接受采访时的表现有关，大家觉得他可能已经触顶了。

But that drop from reform may well be a little bit to do with this £5,000,000,000 to do with how he behaves when he's on interviews and to do with a sense that perhaps maybe they've hit the ceiling.

也许很多人不喜欢他在亨利·诺瓦克案中的反应。

Maybe people didn't like the way that he reacted to the Henry Novak case.

有些人觉得他确实越界了。

There was a sense from some people that he'd kind of crossed the line.

所以，我们或许正看到他的支持率开始停滞，甚至可能下滑的苗头。

And so perhaps we are sort of seeing the beginnings of of a kind of plateauing or possibly a decline.

说实话，我一直觉得他已经到顶了，但我也清楚，这可能是我一厢情愿的想法。

I mean, I I felt for some time that he's hit the peak, but I you know, I'm always conscious of the the possibility that's wishful thinking.

比如亨利·诺瓦克那起谋杀案，他立刻就想拿来当政治工具，这让我想起特朗普在夏洛茨维尔事件后的做法。

And so, for example, the Henry Novak, you know, murder that he immediately tried to weaponize in the way that he did, that reminded me of Trump and the Charlottesville.

两边都有好人。

There are good people on both sides.

至于钱的事儿，根本没人关心，这简直就像特朗普老拿大丑闻说事儿一样。

The money stuff, nobody cares, reminds me of of Trump constantly sort of saying whatever the big scandal is.

你知道吧。

You know?

没人提这事儿。

Nobody's talking about that.

我这边的人都在聊ABC。

Where I go, they're talking about ABC.

所以他干的也是这一套。

So he's doing the same thing.

我觉得你说得对，他确实因此有点下滑。

I think you're right that he's dropping a little because of it.

我也觉得，人们不喜欢政客总在找各种不断变化的借口。

I also think people don't like when politicians seem to be making sort of ever changing excuses.

还有安德鲁提出的这个问题。

And this question from Andrew.

我还没见过有人在质问奈杰尔·法拉奇时指出：如果他当上首相，这辈子都会享有武装外交保护，那他就根本不需要这笔安保经费了。

One line of questioning I've not seen when trying to hold Nigel Farage to account is to make the point that if he becomes prime minister, he'll receive armed diplomatic protection for the rest of his life, in which case it follows he won't need this money for security.

如果他当上首相，难道不该问问他，会不会把那五百万英镑的捐款退还给克里斯托弗·哈伯？

Surely, needs to be asked, if you become prime minister, will you return the £5,000,000 gift to Christopher Harbour?

我想我们都知道他会怎么回答。

And I think we know what his answer will be.

他肯定拿去买几百辆法拉利了。

He'll go and buy, you know, several 100 Ferraris.

但你觉得，他的问题是不是根本没人信他？

But did do you think I think his problem is is that nobody believes.

我认识的人里，没人相信他说的那套。

I don't know anybody who believes that that's the case.

更让我反感的是，就在乔·考克斯遇害十周年这周，这位工党议员当年在脱欧公投期间被当街杀害，而法拉奇却说他需要这笔安保经费，因为他是全国最受攻击的政治人物。

I mean, the other thing which I find genuinely offensive in the week, the tenth anniversary of Joe Cox murder, a labor MP who was literally murdered during the Brexit referendum campaign ten years ago, that Farage goes out and says he needs this security because he's the most attacked politician in the country.

其实他自己也明白。

He's actually in his own ways.

你知道，他在某些人群里还挺受欢迎的。

He you know, he's he's popular with a certain section of the of the population.

所以我只是觉得，这些不断变化的借口——说那只是个礼物，

So I just think that these constantly shifting excuses, it was a gift.

说没有任何附加条件，

It was there was no strings attached.

但我真不认识谁会无缘无故送人五百万，哪怕没明说，也肯定图点什么。

I don't know anybody who gives somebody 5,000,000 without wanting something in return even if it's unspoken.

就在这个新闻曝光的那一周，你大概还记得吧，艾莱斯特，卫报去找他要求回应，给了他两天时间回复。

So the week that the story was reported, you you will probably remember, Alastair, what happened was the Guardian went to him for a right of reply, gave him two days to come back to them.

结果在这段时间里，他跑去《每日电讯报》编了个悲情故事，说自己的一个家被人纵火了。

And in that period, he went to the telegraph with a sob story about how one of his homes had been fire bombed.

确实发生了一起纵火案。

There'd been an arson attack.

但后来我们在《观察家报》跟进报道发现，警方调查后根本没当纵火案处理，而是当成可能的入室盗窃。

And what we've actually since reported at the Observer is that the police investigated it as a possible burglary, not as an arson attack.

所以就连这个说法，也没能经得起几天的推敲。

So even that story didn't kind of stand the test of scrutiny for a couple of days.

从那以后，各种说法就层出不穷了。

And since then, we've had lots of different reasons given.

当然，其中一种说法是，这是对他为脱欧奔走呼吁的奖励。

Of course, one of them being as it was a reward for his campaigning for Brexit.

还有他上周接受的一系列采访，说他怎么花这笔钱都无所谓。

And then the series of interviews that he gave last week saying it doesn't matter what I spend it on.

我想怎么花就怎么花。

I can spend it on what I like.

理论上讲，这话没错。

I mean, theoretically, that is true.

他现在被调查的焦点，根本不是钱花在了哪儿。

What he's being investigated for is not what are you spending it on.

而是他该不该申报这笔钱。

It's whether he should have declared it or not.

真正能判断他花这五百万是否妥当的，只有克拉克顿的居民——当然，前提是咱们能知道他到底怎么花的。

And the only people that can really make up their mind as to whether or not they are happy with what he's spending this £5,000,000 on if we ever find out are the people of Clackton.

所以关键是要让这个信息传达到那些人那里，而不是只在那些早就对奈杰尔·法拉奇有定见的人群里打转。

That's why it's so important that the message kind of gets to those individuals and not just to the sort of same group of people that already have decided what they think about Nigel Farage.

但更重要的是，我们越能揭露流向他和改革党的各种资金，政治人物越能确保我们的制度真正管用，因为我们长期以来一直靠着一种‘绅士协议’式的治理方式，觉得事情就该这么办。

But this is also a you know, the more that we can do to kind of shine a light on the various money flowing in to him and flowing into reform and the more that politicians can ensure that the system that we have is fit for purpose is really important because we have for a long time sort of operated in this kind of good chaps theory form of government and and way of of of things being done in a certain way.

我觉得特朗普，还有之前的鲍里斯·约翰逊，都暴露了一点：如果没有明确的规则，光靠惯例，就有人会钻空子，把规矩全撕了。

And one of the things that I think Trump has exposed and before Nigel Boris Johnson has exposed is that if you don't have sort of quite nailed down rules, if you just go by convention, then someone can come along and start ripping them up.

而奈杰尔·法拉奇现在做的事，某种程度上其实是鲍里斯·约翰逊和多米尼克·卡明斯先带的头——他们当时就问：‘这违法吗？’

And I think what Nigel Farage is doing to an extent was kind of kick started really by Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings who came along and were like, well, is it illegal?

不违法。

No.

明白了。

Okay.

行。

Fine.

那我们就这么干。

Then then we can do this.

是的。

Yeah.

听我说。

Look.

我同意你的看法。

I agree with you.

我觉得这太糟糕了，把所有议员都一概而论不公平。

I think it's terrible, and it's unfair that all MPs get tied with the same brush.

当然，议员报销丑闻已经让公众对这个问题有了很大看法，把基隆只是买了几场阿森纳球票、配了副免费眼镜，跟有人直接往账户里进了五百英镑这种事相提并论，确实有点荒谬。

Of course, the MPs expenses scandal did a lot on that front, and it is on one level absurd to equate Kieron by getting a couple of tickets at Arsenal and his free glasses with somebody getting literally £5,000,000 banged into his bank account.

但这就是我们所处的现实——一个极度愤世嫉俗的时代。

But that is the reality in which we live in a very, very cynical age.

但我忍不住想，问题不只是纳吉尔·法拉奇一个人。

But I wonder whether the the fact that it's not just Nigel Farage.

理查德·泰斯也牵涉到税务问题。

So Richard Theiss has had issues to do with his taxation.

当然了，他也是同样的回应。

And, of course, he he does the same response.

你懂的。

You know?

没什么可看的。

Nothing to see here.

没违反任何法律。

No law broken.

一切都很正规。

All above board.

当然，他们那边一个重要叛逃者罗伯特·詹里奇，也在资金和融资方面出了些问题。

And then, of course, you've got one of their big defectors, Robert Jenrich, has had one or two issues to do with his his funding and his financing.

我觉得，一旦公众开始用这种眼光来看待他们，长远来看，民意迟早会转变。

I think that as that becomes the prism through which they're being regarded, then I think a change can come further down the track in terms of public opinion.

因为如果你的全部人设就是代表普通人、为底层百姓发声、对抗权势，可突然间你却显得像个超级精英，这种人设根本撑不住。

Because if your whole shtick is that you're the kind of you know, you're the man of the people fighting for the the common man, fighting for the guy who's being, you know, beaten up by the authorities, and suddenly you seem to be like the uber elitist, it's very, very hard for that shtick to hold.

是的。

Yes.

而且我觉得更重要的是，看看这些报道的来源在哪里。

And I think also what's important is if you look at where those stories have come from.

比如理查德·泰斯这个案例，其实来自《星期日泰晤士报》的一系列调查报道。

So the Richard Tice one is a good example because that was actually a Sunday Times, investigational series of investigations.

有时候，政治立场偏右的人容易说，哦，这只是《卫报》《观察家报》这些左派媒体在搞政治。

And I think it's sometimes easy for people on the right of politics to say, well, it's the Guardian, it's the Observer, it's the rest is politics.

你肯定会这么说，对吧？

You would say that, wouldn't you?

但当连中右翼的媒体都开始这么做时，人们就会意识到，这根本不是党派问题，而是关乎道德底线——有些事，大家都不该碰。

But when you have even center right publications doing it, then people probably realize that it's not a partisan issue as much and therefore it cannot be ignored, that it is a kind of about having an ethical standard, an ethical red line that people will not cross.

说到你刚才讲的安全问题，确实，尽管奈杰尔·法拉奇人气很高，但他也极其招人反感。

I mean, just to go back to the point that you were making about security, it is true to say that although he is very popular, Nigel Farage, that he is also very, very disliked.

我不是说安全问题不存在，但议会确实会根据每位议员的具体情况，提供个性化的安保措施。

You know, this is not to say that there isn't security issues there, but parliament offers every MP tailored security according to their needs.

所以我们并不清楚具体发生了什么，因为议会从不就个别情况发表评论。

And so we we don't know exactly what went on because parliament does not comment on specific individual circumstances.

但我经常跟议员们聊过，了解他们安保安排的细节，警方确实深度参与，确保一切安全无虞。

But I know from speaking to MPs regularly about the type of arrangements that they have, the fact that the police are really involved in making sure that everything is okay.

他们可能会开车经过议员的家。

You know, they might drive past their house.

甚至在议员家人不在家的时候，也会绕去他们家附近巡查。

They might drive past their their loved one's house when they're not even there.

现在大家终于意识到，议员们确实面临真实的人身威胁，只是这种警觉来得有点晚了。

There is a real consciousness, perhaps too little too late that MPs are genuinely at risk from people that would like to do them harm.

所以，虽然很难说清楚，但我觉得议会任由议员独自面对危险，这说法根本站不住脚。

And so, you know, I think it's difficult to say, but the idea that parliament would leave anyone in the lurch seems to me to be somewhat implausible.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得政界里确实存在一种现象，尤其在右翼阵营，有些人把安保严密当成身份的象征——身边围着四个戴耳麦、从左耳伸出线的人，好像这样就显得特别有分量。

I mean, I I also think that there is an element within politics, and and I do see this particularly on the right, where it's almost like a status symbol that, you know, if you are surrounded by four guys with earpieces coming out of their, you know, their left ear hole, that somehow it makes you look much, much more important.

我知道，那些亲近法拉奇的人听了肯定会觉得这太离谱了，简直荒唐，但我确实听过他谈起过死亡威胁。

Now I know I'm sure that people who close to Farage will hear that and think, you know, that's outrageous, that's ridiculous, but, you know, I've heard him talk about death threats.

我是说，政界里有很多人都收到过死亡威胁，多得数不清。

I mean, I've had very, very, very many people in politics get death threats.

明白吗？

Okay?

我还能想起不久之前，我和法拉奇在同一栋楼里。

I can remember not long ago, was in the same building as Farage.

我接触过一些人，他们现在享受着英国政府提供的最高级别保护。

And look, I've worked with people who've been under the highest level of of protection that there is in the in the British state right now.

那次我和奈杰尔·法拉奇一起参加活动，他带了一整支安保团队进场。

And I was at this event with Nigel Farage, and he had a team of people who came in.

他们做的那些事，和我说的那些保护措施一模一样。

They're they're doing the same sorts of things.

除非他们那天提前得到了非常具体的威胁情报，否则我觉得，这一切看起来更像是在作秀。

Now unless they'd heard something very, very specific about that day, I've got to say, think I it felt very performative to me.

所以你知道吧？

And so you know?

这就是为什么我一听到乔·考克斯的事就特别生气，偏偏是在那个星期说这种话。

And that's why I got so angry about the Joe Cox that you know, him saying that in that week of all weeks.

事实上，你越是强调这些威胁的存在，反而可能让那些没有保护的人处境更危险。

Because the truth is the more you highlight that there are these threats out there, sometimes that actually exacerbates the problem for the many who do not have protection.

你提到克拉克顿的事，挺有意思的。

It's very interesting what you said about Clackton.

他们并不喜欢，但当时也没多少人注意到。

They don't like it, but also there wasn't that much awareness.

就算有人注意了，真能改变投票结果吗？

And even when there was awareness, would it shift the vote?

我不太确定。

Not so not so sure.

但考虑到政党高层、议员和全职活动人士这些层面，现在是不是已经开始有人议论，法拉奇会不会撑完这一届议会了？

But bearing in mind that the the party at the higher level with the MPs and the sort of full time activists and so forth, is there this the beginnings of chatter about whether Farage is actually going to see out this parliament?

我觉得不会在党内核心改革派内部发生。

I would say not within reform the core party.

大多数人还是觉得他会留任。

I think most people are sort of still banking on him staying.

这可能更多是因为他们意识到，如果他不带领他们参加下一次大选，他们将面临更大的困难，而不仅仅是现实情况本身。

I think that may be as much to do with the realization that if he doesn't lead them into the next general election, they will have a much tougher time as it is to do with the reality.

我认为罗伯特·詹里奇如果不是觉得很快就有机会当上领袖，根本不会跳槽，因为他迟早要领导保守党，或者领导改革党。

But I think I think it's implausible that Robert Jenrich would not have defected if he didn't think he was going to have a good chance of being leader fairly soon, because he was either going to lead the conservatives at some point or lead, reform at some point.

也许他认为，在改革党这边机会来得更快。

And perhaps he might think that it was sooner there than than at the Tories.

我觉得一些对手政党开始怀疑，这件事可能真的对他造成了影响，毕竟你想想他当了这么多年局外人，他说自己 campaigning 已经二十多年了。

I think that there are growing suspicions from some of the rival political parties that it's maybe getting to him and that maybe he's, you know, if you think about how long he spent as an outsider, you know, he talks of he he's been a campaigner for sort of twenty, thirty years.

即使他当欧洲议会议员的时候，也一直以局外人身份为荣。

Even when he was an MEP, he was an MEP that sort of reveled in his outsider status.

现在他终于有机会掌权了，可要是最后落得个又一个失败的首相下场，那可就太讽刺了。

And the idea that, you know, he might finally get into power and his legacy is yet another failed prime minister.

我觉得这会让他好好想想。

I think it will be giving him pause for thought.

确实，有些人就是这么说的。

Certainly, that's what some people are saying.

所以我想，或许确实有这种暗示。

And so I think there probably is, you know, maybe some suggestion.

而且，如果民调继续停滞甚至下滑，再加上这五百万英镑在他身边打转，他完全可能说：算了。

And certainly, if the polls continue to either plateau or even go down, And with this £5,000,000 sort of circling him, it's it's not inconceivable that he says, you know what?

我已经做得够好了。

I've I've done a great job.

我已经带我们走到这一步，现在我可以成为你们从未拥有的最棒首相——这能给他一个体面的退场方式，就像有人跟我形容的那样，而不用真的接受最终考验。

I've brought us this far, and now I will be the best prime minister you never had because it will sort of allow him to have a kind of off ramp, as someone described it to me, without actually being put to the final test.

但我们总是这么说，权力的后台影响力，远比普通人以为的要大得多。

But, you know, we always say this, the sort of drawer of power is far stronger than people kind of quote unquote normal people realize.

所以，既然都走到这一步了，他要是选择不干，那可真是个大举动。

And so I think it would be a big step for him not to do it, having got this far.

这是贝利提出的问题。

Well, question from Bailey.

如果换一个领导人，改革党还能获得支持吗？还是说他们的成功完全依赖奈杰尔·法拉奇？

Could reform get support with a different leader, or is their success entirely tied to Nigel Farage?

我想，你刚才说的其实就是这个意思。

I mean, I guess that's what you've been addressing there.

他显然很担心自己成了独唱歌手，所以才陆续引入了珍·里克、斯韦拉·布拉曼、纳迪姆·扎哈维这样的人。我记得我跟他见过一次面，那时候我甚至还没听说过齐亚·优素福，他就告诉我：‘我请了个新人，叫齐亚·优素福，特别出色，肯定能带来大变化’之类的。

He's obviously been worried about the one man band thing, which is why he has welcomed in people like Jen Rick and Swellah Brahman and Nadim Zahawi and, you know, and and I remember that meeting that I had with him, I remember him telling me that it was before I'd even heard of Zia Youssef and he was telling me, I've got this guy coming in, Zia Youssef, he's really impressive, he's really gonna shake things up, etcetera.

所以他心里很清楚这一点。

So he's conscious of that.

你觉得他们有没有做过民调，看看改革党到底有多大的影响力是来自奈杰尔·法拉奇本人的？

Do you think they've done polling on the extent to which reform is Nigel Farage?

我很好奇结果会是什么。

And I wonder what it says.

我不敢肯定，但我猜他们应该做过。

I don't know for certain, but I would I would imagine they have done.

我的意思是，罗伯特·詹里奇显然已经组建了一个相当成熟的团队。

I mean, certainly, I think Robert Jenrich has a fairly sort of well established team.

他很可能自己做过一些民调。

He's probably been doing his own polling.

他手头有足够的私人捐款，完全能自掏腰包运作，不用依赖中央预算。

He certainly has enough of his own donors that that could that could certainly be, afforded out of his pocket rather than central budget.

这既是优势，也是负担。

It's both a blessing and a curse.

比如你看地方选举，甚至议会补选，他们都能绕过支出限制，因为他们是以全国性 campaigning 的方式来运作，而不是聚焦地方议题。

So when you look at, for example, the local elections and even the maker field elections, they were able to bypass spending rules for both of those because they campaigned on a national level rather than on local issues.

对他们来说，这简直是两全其美——可以在所有宣传材料上打上‘NIDA’的标签，又不用受支出上限约束，也不用公开具体花了多少钱。

And that is, to them, win win because it means they just passed a NIDA forage all over their campaign literature, and then they don't have to worry about spending limits or even saying how much they have spent on things.

这个情况难道没有在选举法案里被提及吗？

Is that not being addressed by the elections bill?

我觉得这个问题可能得靠后续的修正案来解决。

Again, I think that is something which may have to come through in amendments.

但就目前情况来看，我认为这不会具有追溯效力。

But as things stand, and certainly, I don't I don't think it would be retrospective.

地方选举这边几乎是毫无限制，你都能猜到他们砸了多少钱，所以才会出现一些怪事，比如有威尔士的报纸发现，他们在宣传材料里居然打着伦敦的广告。

The local election, it's a bit sort of sky's the limit, and and and you can guess how high they went on that, which is why you had weird things like, I think there was a Welsh newspaper that had picked up that they were advertising about something in London in one of their campaign literatures.

看起来是有点乱，但核心信息传出去了，就是投票改革、支持变革。

So it looks a bit disorganized, but it basically gets the message out, you know, vote reform, vote for change.

那些更细致的细节，可能没多少人会注意。

You know, the the finer details are maybe not necessarily what everyone's gonna pick up on.

你根本不用操心花了多少钱，因为有个泰国人直接给了你们五百万英镑。

And you don't have to worry about how much it costs because you've just got £5,000,000 from a from a guy in Thailand.

他们能大量印制印着奈杰尔·法拉奇头像的材料，完全不用担心后果。

So they they are able to sort of pump this stuff out with Nigel Farage's face on it and not really have to worry too much about the consequences.

这确实意味着，我觉得存在一个接班人问题。

It does mean that I think there is a succession issue.

我觉得罗伯特·詹里奇，还有可能齐亚尔·优素福，也都把自己当成接班人。

I think Robert Jenrich and possibly Ziyar Youssef also sees himself as a as a successor.

我是说，艾莱斯特，你上周肯定看了问答环节吧，当时齐亚尔·优素福好像暗示自己被禁止参选。

I mean, Alastair, I'm sure you watched question time last week when Ziyar Youssef seemed to suggest that he'd been blocked from standing as a candidate.

我不确定你是不是信了这一套。

I don't know whether you fell for that one or not.

说实话，我自己也挺怀疑的。

I mean, I'm a bit skeptical myself.

我一般只在自己上问答环节的时候才看。

My usual rule about Question Time is I only watch it if I'm on it.

不过我确实看了那段优素福的视频，看起来像是那个保守党议员在为难他吧？

But I did I did see I did see the clip of CA Youssef and it looked to me, it was actually the Tory, wasn't it?

凯文·霍兰德一直在追问，为什么他从来都没参选过。

Kevin Holland rate was giving him a hard time about why he never why he'd never stood.

他那样子，就像在找借口反驳，但我估计还没人证实他真的被拒过。

He looked like me, like somebody trying to find a reason to rebut, but I'm I'm assuming that nobody has confirmed that he was blocked at any point.

我问过几个改革党的消息源，没人能说出他申请过哪个补选或任何其他席位却被拒绝的事。

I have been asking some of my reform sources, and no one has been able to come up with a a sort of by election or or any other seat that he has applied for and been turned down from.

不过，说不定哪天我们会找到确凿证据呢。

But, you know, maybe maybe we'll find the receipts at some point.

谁知道呢。

Who knows?

但这些人里，一个都没有。

Then, I mean, none of them though.

你看看他们几个，理查德·泰克、优素福爵士、珍·里克——我觉得这些应该是上电视最频繁的了。

If you look at any of them, Richard Tighe, Sir Youssef, and Jen Rick, I mean, who I guess are the most high profile of the ones who are most on television, I would say.

说实话，他们真不怎么样，对吧？

I mean, they're not they're not great, are they?

确实不怎么样。

They're not.

纳贾尔·法拉奇我得承认，他确实能打动老百姓。

Najjar Farage, I have to acknowledge, has got something that cuts through to the public.

我不觉得他们能做到。

I'm not sure they do.

这可不是我自己的选择，但我的政治立场也压根儿没打算站这边。

It wouldn't be my choice, but it's not really my choice of politics either.

我觉得齐亚·优素福也是个例子，他跟女性说话时，常常缺乏最基本的尊重。

And I think I think Zia Youssef is another one who, doesn't always speak to women with the greatest of respect.

再说辩论环节，他那样质疑BBC故意压低改革派选民的数据，结果被当场怼得哑口无言。

Again, I think in question time, the way that he spoke about BBC trying to sort of rig the numbers so that it looked as though there were fewer reform voters and and being put very much in his place.

你知道吗，那可能是他头一回遇到这种场面，可他照样肆无忌惮地打断在场的女嘉宾，比如艾米莉·索恩布尔。作为女性，我看不下去，真的很难受。

You know, it was kind of the first time I think that perhaps he sort of had that situation, but he was perfectly happy to talk all over the women, Emily Thornbull as well, who were on the panel, you know, to me watching that as a woman that doesn't sit well, I don't like it.

罗伯特·詹纳里奇和理查德·泰斯倒是比较有分寸，不过也难免有失礼的时候。

Robert Jennerich and Richard Theiss are more respectful, but still, you know, kind of have their moments.

我注意到，随着一些人陆续跳槽过来，改革党内部的权力格局也在悄悄变化，团队里的矛盾也因此更复杂了。

And I think the sort of interesting thing that has been happening with some of the defections as they come over is how they affect the sort of pecking order within reform and what that does to some of the tensions within the team.

我听说齐亚尔·优素福刚来的时候，有整整两个月都没跟罗伯特·杰尼克说过话。

So I understand that Ziyar Youssef didn't actually talk to Robert Generic for about two months after he came over.

但主要还是因为他是保守党出身，而齐亚尔·优素福根本信不过保守党人。

But I think primarily because he was a Tory and Ziyar Youssef clearly does not trust Tories.

他认为他们的任务就是搞垮保守党。

He thinks that their job is to destroy the Conservative Party.

你知道，那里头还掺杂着一些男性的自尊和等级观念。

You know, the extent to which there's also a bit of male ego and hierarchy kind of coming into to play there.

我猜这大概也是他们长时间不说话的另一个原因，不过听说他们现在又开始交流了。

I I would imagine that's probably another another reason why they didn't speak, for for a long time, although I gather they are speaking now.

哦，原来詹·里克和优素福又联系上了，这倒是好消息。

Oh, good to know that Jen Rick and Yusuf are speaking.

这真是个特别棒的消息。

That's love lovely, lovely news for us.

大家好。

Hello.

欢迎收听《余下皆政治》。

The rest is politics listeners.

我是戈登和大卫，来自《余下皆分类》，今天为大家独家抢先预告我们最新一期关于亚历山大·利特维年科中毒案的节目。

It's Gordon and David here from the rest is classified, and we've got an exclusive preview of our latest series on the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko.

一名俄罗斯安全部门的官员当时正和妻子、儿子住在伦敦，突然病得非常严重。

A Russian security service officer is living in London with his wife and son when he suddenly falls seriously ill.

他被人用一种极其罕见且高度放射性的毒物毒害了。

He has been poisoned using a rare and highly radioactive toxin.

但究竟是谁下的命令？为什么？

But who gave the orders and why?

在我们的最新系列中，我们将深入调查前克格勃官员亚历山大·利特维年科那起离奇的谋杀案。

In our latest series, we investigate the mysterious murder of former KGB officer Alexander Litvinenko.

这背后是一场直抵俄罗斯权力顶层的阴险阴谋，我们揭开利特维年科遇害前种种扑朔迷离的细节，以及外国特工如何在英国本土策划了一场大胆的暗杀，险些危及整个伦敦的人群。

In a sinister plot that goes all the way to the top of the Russian state, we delve into the murky circumstances leading up to Litvinenko's death and how foreign agents pulled off an audacious murder on British soil, one which put the entire population of London in serious danger.

这不仅是一出个人悲剧，一场谍战风云，更是一场政治阴谋。

This is a story of personal tragedy and of cloak and dagger espionage, but also political conspiracy.

利特维年科的死，揭示了在普京治下发声所付出的代价，也暴露了英国政府为了维系政治关系，究竟有多愿意掩盖真相。

Litvinenko's murder sheds light on the cost of speaking out in Putin's Russia, but also the extent to which the British state has been willing to suppress the truth to maintain its political relationships.

想收听完整系列，请在您常用的播客平台搜索《余下皆为机密》。

To hear the full series, listen to the rest is classified wherever you get your podcasts.

听好了。

Listen.

这个问题我们收到了好多提问，卡特。

We got loads of questions on this one, Cat.

凯蒂·维多利亚。

Katie Victoria.

改革党真的是个公司，而不是政党吗？

Is it true that reform is a company, not a political party?

如果是真的，那意味着什么？

And if so, what does that mean?

莎拉，改革党怎么就能当个有限公司呢？

Sarah, how does reform get away with it being a limited company?

这背后有什么规定？

What are the rules there?

是的。

Yes.