挣扎还是雪花？Z世代的心理健康故事

感谢收听《政事其余》。

Thanks for listening to The Rest Is Politics.

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网址是 therestispolitics.com。

That's therestispolitics.com.

欢迎回到Z世代的故事。

Welcome back to the Gen Z story.

我是维姬·斯普特。

It's me, Vicky Spratt.

这周，我们来聊聊年轻人的心理健康。

This week, we're looking at young people's mental health.

这是本系列最重要的话题之一，但也最难深入探讨。

This is one of the most important aspects of this series, but it was also the most difficult to cover.

英国每五个年轻人中，就有一个正在经历心理问题。

One in five young people in The UK is currently suffering from a mental health problem.

这个问题显然对你很重要。

This issue clearly matters to you.

数百位《The Rest Is Politics》的听众来信，和我们分享了他们对这个问题的看法。

Hundreds of TRIP listeners wrote in to tell us about their thoughts on the issue.

这一期和你之前听过的有些不一样，因为我们请了三位嘉宾。

This episode is a little bit different to what you've heard before because we've actually got three guests.

他们对Z世代的心理健康问题都有各自不同的看法。

They've all got a slightly different take on the Gen Z mental health story.

我们请来了牛津大学一位研究青少年心理健康的心理学家。

We've got the Oxford psychologist who specializes in adolescent mental health.

我们请来了一位写过书、讲述自己网络成长经历的年轻女性。

We've got the young woman who has written a book about her experiences of growing up online.

还有一位年轻男性，他是一名研究者，走遍英国，和成千上万的年轻人聊过他们的经历。

And we've got the young man, a researcher who's been traveling The UK and speaking to thousands of young people about their experiences.

这一期我们会提出一些很尖锐的问题。

We're going to be asking some difficult questions in this episode.

年轻人是不是被过度诊断了？

Is there an overdiagnosis problem with young people?

治疗文化是不是走得太远了？

Has therapy culture gone too far?

还是说，今天的年轻人被住房危机、偏低的工资和昂贵的大学教育给拖垮了？

Or have today's young adults been let down by the housing crisis, relatively low wages, and expensive university education.

所以他们是真的在挣扎，还是只是太脆弱了？

So are they struggling or are they snowflakes?

这正是我们在这期节目中要探讨的，关于Z世代心理健康的故事。

That's what we'll explore in this episode of the Gen Z mental health story.

我们先来听听露西·福尔克斯博士的看法。

We'll start by talking to Doctor Lucy Folkues.

她是牛津大学的心理学家，专攻青少年心理健康。

She's an Oxford University psychologist who specializes in adolescent mental health.

我问她，为什么她认为过去二十年里年轻人的心理健康诊断数量激增。

I asked her why she thinks young people's mental health diagnoses have skyrocketed over the last twenty years.

关于现在发生的事，有各种各样的解释，同时很多方面都在变化。

There's a lot of explanations for what's happening and lots of things are changing in parallel.

越来越多的人在调查中表示自己出现了相关症状。

So more people are reporting that they have symptoms in surveys.

更多人开始寻求帮助，也更多人得到了诊断。

More people are seeking help for these problems and more people are getting diagnosed.

但这些变化背后的原因并不简单。

And it's not straightforward why that is happening.

人们对这些问题的谈论方式，已经发生了彻底的文化转变。

It's a total cultural transformation in talking about these problems.

这是其中一个因素。

So that's one component of it.

但另一方面，现实情况确实也在变糟。

But then also there's the component that things are.

这些解释并不互相矛盾——现实确实变得更糟了，年轻人如今面临的处境，和过去的世代已经不一样了。

And these explanations aren't competing, that things really are worse and that there are factors for young people that are different now relative to generations in the past.

现在网上关于心理健康的资讯比以往任何时候都多。

There's more information about mental health online than ever before.

但这也可能导致更多人自己诊断出心理问题吗？

But might that also have led to more people self diagnosing with mental health problems?

人们对心理健康感兴趣，甚至认为心理问题在增多，这已经持续了一百年了。

People have been interested in mental health and even reporting that mental health problems are increasing for one hundred years.

但过去二三十年里，人们对心理健康的关注突然爆发了，大家越来越习惯用心理和精神医学的术语来描述自己的困扰和挑战，这种说法现在已经再普通不过了。

But certainly in the last twenty, thirty years, there has been this explosion in interest in mental health and in framing our difficulties and our challenges in the language of mental health and the language of psychiatry that has become very normalized today.

九十年代可完全不是这样。

And it wasn't happening in the nineties.

如果真要使用精神医学的术语，那时候只适用于那些病情很严重的人，而且大家都不愿意公开谈论。

Really, if you're going to use the language of psychiatry, really, that was for people who were very unwell and you really didn't want to talk about it openly.

现在完全不一样了。

Has completely now.

一般来说，如果人感到不开心，更倾向于说自己抑郁了。

Generally, if people are unhappy, they're more likely to talk about being depressed.

如果他们随便用像强迫症、创伤后应激障碍这样的词的话。

If they use terms like OCD and PTSD very casually.

实际上，这些精神疾病现在似乎有了另一种并行的用法。

And actually, seems like these psychiatric disorders now have a kind of parallel use.

因为人们通过网络自学，对这些疾病的真实含义有了更多了解。

So there is a lot of understanding about what these disorders really are because people have educated themselves via the internet.

所以现在有些人确实准确地表示自己患有强迫症，比如。

So people are now accurately saying that they have OCD, for example.

但同时，他们也把这类术语当玩笑用，或者泛指爱干净、有点较真之类的情况。

But also they are casually using this language almost as kind of a joke or just as a kind of a catch all term for being tidy or obsessive, for example.

我们采访了一些年轻人，他们对这种现象并不无知。

And we interviewed young people, they're not naive to this.

他们知道这两种用法正在同时存在。

They know that there is these kind of two parallel usages happen.

但事实上，这种情况也发生在人际关系中。

But really in the part and it's happening in relationships as well.

过去，我们可能只是觉得和某人合不来。

So in the past, we might just not be incompatible with someone.

但现在我们倾向于说他们回避型，或者自恋。

But now we tend to say that they're avoidant or that they're a narcissist.

我们借用了原本只属于精神科和心理学家的术语。

We're borrowing these terms that used to be reserved for psychiatry and psychologists.

现在人们对心理健康有了这么多认知。

So there's all this awareness of mental health now.

但这样会不会让对话反而倒退了呢？

But is there a risk that we might start going backwards in the conversation?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这背后正发生一件很有趣的事——人们对这种用词开始反弹了。

And I think that's something very interesting that's happening that we've seen almost a kind of backlash towards people using this language.

年轻人、青少年中间也出现了这种现象。

It's happening amongst young people, teenagers as well.

我们采访青少年，想了解他们对自我诊断的看法，结果非常有意思，他们的观点其实非常细致。

And when we interviewed teenagers to understand what they thought about self diagnosis, it was fascinating because they had very nuanced perspectives on it.

但他们之间会互相监督。

But they kind of police each other.

他们有一套不成文的规矩，判断一个人说自己有诊断结果到底是真是假。

So there's a set of unspoken rules about what they think is a legitimate case of a person saying they have a diagnosis and what isn't.

比如，他们觉得，如果一个人花了很多时间去思考这个问题，那这个诊断就可信。

So for example, they think if a person seems to have spent a long time thinking about it, then that's legitimate.

但如果一个人脱口就说出来，大家就会觉得可疑。

But if they seem to be saying it too readily, then that's treated with suspicion.

所以这里面确实存在一种评判。

So there is this judgment.

同时，大家也认为，用这种说法作为临时假设，最终去寻求专业帮助，是可以接受的。

There's also a sense that people are allowed to use this language as a temporary hypothesis on route to going to a professional.

但如果你觉得自我诊断就足够了，别人就会对你产生怀疑。

But you're treated with suspicion if you think the self diagnosis bit is sufficient.

所以这种监督和评判真的很多。

So there's a lot of this policing and judgment.

而且确实出现了反噬，因为人们开始担心说自己有自我诊断了。

And there absolutely is a backlash because people are becoming worried about saying they have self diagnosis.

你在网络论坛上就能看到这种现象。

And you see this in forums online.

他们说：我觉得我可能有这个情况。

They say, like, I think I might have this.

但他们特意强调，自己并不是在自我诊断，因为他们知道接下来会迎来质疑。

I'm not trying to self diagnose because they know that that backlash is coming.

还有一些有趣的数据表明，从2009年到2019年、2020年左右，公众对精神健康问题人士的态度是逐渐改善的。

And there's also been some interesting data showing that public attitudes towards people with mental health problems improved from about 2009 to about twenty nineteen, twenty twenty.

但之后又开始下滑了。

And then it started to decrease again.

所以你在图表上能很清楚地看到，曲线先是达到顶峰，然后又慢慢回落。

So you can see the line on the graph very clearly peaking, and then it's starting to go back down again.

所以我觉得这确实说明，人们可能对这些观念感到厌倦了。

So I think that really does speak to the possibility that people are feeling saturated by these ideas.

他们对别人轻易使用这类语言感到反感，甚至对这样做的同龄人抱有怀疑和轻蔑的态度。

They're feeling fed up of people using this language too readily and they're treating their peers with skepticism and scorn for doing it.

这可是个大问题，因为我们还没真正解决核心难题——那些正经历这些问题的人，依然得不到真正能帮他们好转的支持。

Which is a massive problem because we still haven't actually resolved the problem, which is that people experiencing these problems are not getting access to support that actually helps them feel better.

我们确实有了更多意识，也更愿意开口谈论了。

So it's like we've had this awareness or the willingness to talk about it.

但 backlash 却在问题真正改善之前就来了。

And then the backlash has started before we've actually improved the problem.

所以没错，眼下这确实是个严重的问题。

So yes, it's a massive issue, I think, the moment.

听到露西分享她的研究，以及在应对年轻人心理健康问题时出现的这些意想不到的挑战，真的很值得深思。

It's really interesting to hear from Lucy about her research and some of the challenges unintended as they might be that are now arising when it comes to how we deal with young people's mental health.

过度向成年人谈论年轻人的问题，其实存在很大风险。

There's a real danger of talking too much to older people about young people.

接下来我们的嘉宾是舒阿·加莫特。

So our next guest is Shuab Gamote.

他今年26岁。

He's 26 years old.

他是一名研究员，最近一直在英国各地走访。

He's a researcher, and he's been traveling The UK.

他的工作特别有意思的地方在于，他一直在和同龄人交流，了解他们对周围世界各种事情的想法和感受。

What's great about his work is that he's been speaking to his own generation about how they think and feel about everything that is going on in the world around them.

他已经整理出了两份报告。

He's compiled two reports.

一份是关于16岁青少年的内心世界，另一份是关于NEET群体的内心世界。

One is inside the mind of a 16 year old, and the other is inside the mind of a NEET.

NEET指的是那些既不读书、也不工作、也不接受培训的年轻人。

That's someone who's not in education, employment, or training.

我们聊了很多特别有意思的话题，比如‘拒绝经济’、‘习得性无助’，还有他在欧洲发现的一个地方，或许能给英国指明一条出路。

We had some really, really interesting conversations about the rejection economy, about learned helplessness, and about a place in Europe that he thinks might just be able to show Britain the way forward.

舒阿·加莫特，欢迎来到《政治之外》的Z世代故事。

Shuab Gamote, welcome to the Gen Z story for The Rest Is Politics.

是的。

Yes.

很高兴能来到这里。

It's a pleasure to be here.

现在到底发生了什么？是什么让你决定花时间去研究这个话题？

What is going on, and what made you decide to spend your time looking into this?

关于我为什么对这个话题特别感兴趣，主要是因为上一份报告出来后，我们发现年轻人普遍对未来有一种虚无感。

In terms of why I was really interested in this topic, off the back of our last report, I think one of the key things that came up is there was a lot of nihilism among young young people about their future.

工作是其中一个重要方面——他们缺乏信心，不相信自己能从事想做的工作，进入想加入的行业。

And work was a big part of that, not having the confidence to believe that they can do what they want to do and go into the industries that they want to go in.

所以我们过去四个月走遍了全国各地。

So we spent the last four months really going around the country.

我们去了二十座不同的城市，访谈了四百多位年轻人，进行了一次深度倾听，试图理解他们对工作的真正动机。

We've been to 20 different cities, spoken to over 400 young people, doing like a deep listening exercise, getting behind their kind of motivations for work.

他们真的想工作吗？

Do they actually want to work?

缺的是什么？

What's missing?

这份报告其实很好地揭示了这一点。

And think the report really kind of illuminates that.

你刚才提到，在做第一份报告时发现的那种虚无感。

And you just described this nihilism that you picked up when you were doing the first report.

通常不会觉得16岁的孩子会对未来这么虚无，也就是觉得努力工作毫无意义。

Wouldn't normally expect 16 year olds to be particularly nihilistic about the future, which is essentially feeling like there's no point to work hard.

做什么都没意义，彻底放弃，反正什么都不重要。

There's no point in doing anything, scorched earth, nothing really matters or means anything.

你从他们那里听到了什么？

What were you picking up from them?

他们为什么会跟你说，自己是这种感受？

Why were they telling you that that's how they were feeling?

在第一份报告里，我们采访了16岁和17岁的孩子。

So in the first report, we spoke to 16 and 17 year olds.

那时候，他们全都还在上学。

And at that point in their lives, all of them were in education.

我们接触的所有年轻人，都在学院的六年级学习。

All of the young people that we spoke to were in sixth form in college.

学校通常是个挺乐观的地方，老师总在鼓励学生，说他们的未来会很光明，能上大学，能过上好日子。

Quite naturally, school is usually quite an optimistic environment where teachers are trying to tell the young people that they're working with that their future is going to be bright, they can go to university, they can live good lives.

但当我们问到住房问题，问他们现在最沮丧的是什么，或者为什么觉得国家在走下坡路时，他们提到的都是生活成本危机之类的事。

However, when we ask them about stuff like housing, when we ask them what they're really depressed about at the moment or what's making them feel like this country is going in the wrong direction, they would list things like cost of living crisis.

很多年轻人到了16岁就觉得自己这辈子根本买不起房，因为他们从小到大听到的全是各种信号——新闻头条、课堂讨论、政治话题、A-Level课程，还有经济学课上讲的那些。

A lot of young people believe they'll never own a home in their lifetime at the age of 16 because of all the signals that they've been sent throughout their lives, whether it be headlines or conversations in school and politics and A levels or in economics.

这些对话让他们觉得，从经济和生活品质上来说，他们不可能过上和父母一样的日子。

Those conversations were leading them to believe that financially and prosperity wise, they wouldn't live the same kind of lives as their parents.

我们常听到有人说Z世代是‘玻璃心’，不够坚强，总把问题归咎于年轻人。

We hear Gen Z in particular described as snowflakes, not resilient enough, really locating problems in young people.

你觉得年轻人所成长和经历的这些结构，在多大程度上造成了这个问题？

To what extent do you think it's the structures that young people are growing up with and experiencing?

又在多大程度上，是年轻人本身发生了根本性的变化？

And to what extent do you think something has fundamentally shifted in young people?

我觉得两者都有影响。

I think it's a mixture of both.

在上一份报告里，我们谈到了社会对年轻人的道德恐慌。

In our last report, we talked about the moral panic around young people.

比如贴上‘雪橇族’这类标签，还有媒体上那些关于Z世代的胡言乱语。

And we talked about the labeling of snowflake, etcetera, and all the nonsense that the average headline shows you about Gen Z.

但事实上，依我看，这一代人可能是历史上最有韧性的了。

What we actually found is, in my opinion, this is one the most resilient generations that's ever been.

他们在很短的时间内面对了这么多不同的危机。

They face so many different crises over a short period of time.

而且，这里头其实有一种很值得思考的视角。

And there's an interesting way of thinking about it.

有一位研究者兼心理学家叫凯拉·斯坎登，我们在《十六岁少年的内心世界》里提到过她。

There's this researcher and psychologist called Kyla Skandon, and we talked about her in Inside the Mind of a 16 year old.

但她指出，把一代人简单看作一个整体，比如认为Z世代比以往任何一代都更没用，这种想法是站不住脚的。

But she outlines how thinking about one generation is one generation, so Gen Z is Gen Z is more useless than ever.

她还提出了三个Z世代的典型类型。

And she outlines three Gen Z archetypes.

分别是Z世代1.0、1.5和2.0。

So Gen Z one point zero, 1.5, and Gen Z two point zero.

我属于Z世代1.0，成长过程中接触的是比较自然的社交媒体，比如Facebook，那时候你的推荐页是会结束的。

So Gen Z one point zero, I'm a member of Gen Z one point zero, grew up with kind of organic social media, maybe Facebook, where your For You page actually ended.

顺便说一句，当我们跟年轻人聊起‘推荐页会结束’这个概念时，他们根本听不懂——他们甚至不知道Facebook曾经不是无限滚动的，这让他们特别惊讶。

And by the way, when we talk to young people about the concept of a For You page ending, well, it wasn't even a For You page, where your Facebook page ending, it kind of really shocked them that there was no such thing as endless scrolling.

那时候可没法整晚刷个不停。

You couldn't just scroll all night.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，如果你只有五十个朋友，十分钟内就刷完了。

I mean, it would be if you've got 50 friends, you're done within ten minutes.

对我来说，Facebook 就只是放在家里的台式机上。

And for me, Facebook was just on my desktop computer at home.

那一代人当然也有一些有意思的东西，只是没有人工智能之类的。

And that generation would have had interesting things, obviously, no AI, etcetera.

然后是 1.5 代，YouTube 文化开始明显兴起。

And then you've got 1.5, which YouTube culture starts coming around a lot stronger.

那时候有了 Snapchat。

You have Snapchat.

还有更多自然形态的社交媒体。

You have, again more organic forms of social media.

但这一代人也没在学校的环境里真正接触过人工智能。

But again, that generation didn't necessarily grow up with AI in school.

然后到了Gen Z 2.0，他们面对的是完全不同的科技文化，对社会问题的应对方式也跟以前不一样。

And then you've got Gen Z two point zero and they've got a whole different technological culture and they face societal differences in a different way.

那这是Gen Z里最年轻的一代吗？

And that's the youngest part of Gen Z?

就是那些十几岁、刚上大学的年轻人，他们在学校里就已经接触AI了。

One that's teenagers, I very early twenties had AI in

他们在高中就接触了算法驱动的社交平台，而且很清楚这些平台让人上瘾。

high school, had algorithmic social media, which they know is addictive.

特别有意思的是，他们明明知道这些平台有多上瘾，却还得自己想办法控制使用频率。

And it's really interesting that they know how addictive it is and they're having to self police themselves in a lot of different ways.

很多年轻人跟我们说起过，他们会进入‘闭关模式’，或者说是……

A lot of young people told us about going monk mode or kind of

闭关模式？

Monk mode?

等等，什么叫闭关模式？

Wait, what's monk mode?

我想听听这方面的说法。

I wanna hear about this.

所谓的‘僧侣模式’，说实话，主要是年轻男性意识到自己注意力不够集中时会用的词。

So monk mode, especially among young men to be honest, would be kind of them realizing that they're not focused enough maybe.

他们用‘僧侣模式’这个词，其实源自男性社群的术语。

And they would use the term monk mode because it's kind of a manosphere term.

你这话真有意思，因为我去过不少地方，那里青年失业率很高，但好的工作机会却不多。

It's really interesting what you say Cause I've been traveling to a lot of places where there's high youth unemployment, but at the same time, not that many good quality jobs.

经济学家说的好工作，是指有职业发展、晋升空间、工作稳定、薪资不错的岗位。

So a good job defined by economists where there's career progression, possibility of moving up security, decent pay.

但在很多地方，我们发现年轻人干的都是零工时的工作。

But instead in a lot of these places, what we find is that they're zero hours work.

我觉得这就是虚无主义产生的根源。

And I think that's where the kind of the nihilism comes in.

年轻人根本不想去亚马逊仓库那种长时间、没前途的工作。

Young people are not looking for like Amazon warehouse jobs, long hours, a lack of progression.

我们的报告里发现了一个现象，叫‘辞职潮’。

Because one of the things that we find in our report was this quitting culture.

这挺有意思的，表面上看，好像年轻人这事儿挺消极的。

And it's really interesting because on the surface level, seems like quite a negative thing about the young people.

年轻人之所以干不久就辞职，原因正是你刚才说的那些。

The reason a lot of young people are quitting jobs after a very short period of time is because of exactly what you described.

他们在这些岗位上看不到任何前途。

They don't see a future in their roles.

你说的‘辞职潮’，能再详细说说吗？

Quitting culture, tell me a bit more about that.

老一辈经常批评Z世代，说他们做事没恒心，坚持不了多久。

Because one of the charges that's often leveled at Gen Z by older people is that they can't stick at things.

我们确实注意到了这个‘辞职潮’，表面看确实不太正面。

So we did realize the quitting culture and on the surface, it might seem like a negative thing.

在我们这份报告里，这可能是对Z世代最严厉的批评了。

It's probably the most damning thing about Gen Z in this report that we've kind of outlined.

因为我们看到的大多数问题其实更偏向结构性的，特别是关于这种辞职现象。

Because the majority of the problems that we kind of see are more structural, but specifically on quitting culture.

比如，我们曾采访过一位来自加的夫的年轻女性，她在家待了整整三年，什么都没做。

We were speaking to a young woman, for example, in Cardiff, and she had been at home for three years doing nothing.

她是个脱离了监护体系的孩子，靠威尔士政府发放的补助生活，所以一直待在家里。

She was a care leaver and she received income from the Welsh government because she was a care leaver and she was staying at home.

后来她终于开始尝试找工作。

Finally, started to try to get into employment.

她提到自己换过很多份工作。

What she detailed was leaving loads of different roles.

当你逐一问起每份工作的具体情况时，会发现她离开的理由都很充分。

When you asked her about every single specific role, it seemed like she had quite a good reason to.

她辞掉保洁工作，是因为雇主付的钱不对，却要求她干更长的工时。

She was leaving cleaning jobs because they weren't paying her properly when they were expecting her to do longer hours.

她辞掉夜班工作，是因为不想熬夜，也看到夜班对她的心理健康造成了很大伤害。

She left an overnight job because she didn't wanna work overnight, she was seeing how how much of a negative impact it was having on their mental health.

所以我觉得，年轻人频繁换工作背后，其实都有很明确的原因。

So I think there are kind of clear reasons why young people are quitting different things.

舒阿说的那些话特别有见地，但说实话，听上去挺让人难受的。

What Shuab had to say was really insightful, but honestly, quite hard to hear.

对于这一代人来说，他们从小就被灌输：自己的价值取决于能在网上晒出什么样的生活。这种观念，真的造成了很大的问题。

For a generation who have been told that their worth is intrinsically linked to the version of their lives that they're able to post and share online, This feeling of worthlessness has really created a problem.

他说，年轻人年纪轻轻就开始否定自己，因为他们觉得，自己什么都没能成就。

He says young people are writing themselves off at such a young age because they feel that they don't have anything to show for themselves.

接下来，我采访了弗蕾亚·印度。

So next up, I spoke to Freya India.

她是一位26岁的作家，她的书《女孩们》探讨了年轻女性外貌与生活被商品化的问题，以及这对一代人造成了怎样的影响。

She's a 26 year old writer, and her work, her book, Girls, focuses on the commodification of young women's looks and lives and the impact that that has had on a generation.

我一开始问弗蕾亚，她怎么定义她这一代人。

I started by asking Freya how she would define her generation.

我觉得，我们这一代人真正担忧的事情，以及生活中遇到的困境，其实都差不多。

I think that we are essentially the same in what we worry about and the problems that we would describe in our lives.

我们关心的无非是人际关系、外貌、感受这些，都是以前几代人也经历过的事。

So we would probably say it's relationships, it's how we look, it's how we feel, things that previous generations would relate to.

但不一样的是，我们是在一个完全不同的环境和背景下，去应对这些再正常不过的情绪。

But I think what's different about us is we're trying to navigate all of these normal feelings in a very different context with a very different backdrop.

这种变化太新了，根本没法跟上一代人说清楚。

And it's actually so new that you can't even describe it to older generations.

连找合适的词来形容都很难。

You can't even find the words.

这就给我们的世代又添了一重困难——成年人根本跟不上，也理解不了。

And so I think that adds another layer of difficulty for our generation that it's hard for adults to keep up and keep track.

连我们自己都说不清，到底是什么在引发这些焦虑。

And it's hard for us to even know what's causing the anxiety.

所以我觉得，物质条件未必是最差的，但从心理上讲，这代人面临的压力确实截然不同，也更沉重。

And so I think that it's not materially the hardest time, but I do think psychologically it's very different and demanding.

你怎么看这种说法？我们经常听到，尤其是右翼人士说，现在的年轻人就是一群玻璃心，根本不懂自己有多幸运。

What do you think of the idea as we hear so often, particularly from people on the right, that young adults today are just a bunch of snowflakes who don't know how good they've got it?

是的，我以前也这么想

Yeah, well, I used to

我以前确实这么认为。

think that.

我甚至曾经这样看待自己。

I actually used to think that about myself.

我觉得自己身上有问题，不够坚韧。

Again, there's something wrong with me where I am not resilient.

我社交自信不足，就应该自己克服。

I'm not socially confident enough and I just need to get over it.

我觉得这话有一定道理。

And I do think there's some truth in that.

我认为，应对焦虑的方法之一，就是直面它，逼自己去做那些不舒服的事。

I do think that a lot of the answers to our anxiety are leaning into the anxiety, forcing yourself to do things that are uncomfortable.

所以我理解那种说法——你得更坚强一点，稍微多接受一点不适。

So I understand the sort of narrative that you need to be more resilient and, you know, embrace discomfort a little bit more.

但我写这本书时改变想法的地方在于，这件事背后其实有太多背景因素了。

But I think what I changed my mind on writing the book was that there's actually so much context to this.

我们之所以不够坚韧、社交焦虑、缺乏自信，原因有很多，方方面面都值得深究。

There's so many explanations as to why we would be less resilient and more socially anxious and unsure of ourselves.

我觉得，真正能改变我们行为、让我们更有信心的，是理解这些背景，而不是简单地说‘你就是太脆弱’。

And I think actually having that context is much more likely to change our behavior and make us feel more confident than it is to say, you you're just a snowflake.

根据英国最近刚发布的成人精神健康发病率调查，16到24岁人群中，有四分之一患有常见的精神健康问题。

We know from the latest statistics in The UK, the adult psychiatric morbidity survey for England, which was carried out very recently, that a quarter of 16 to 24 year olds have a common mental health condition.

这是自1993年有记录以来的最高水平。

That's the highest level observed since records began in 1993.

关于Z世代的心理健康问题，现在争论特别多。

There's so much debate about what's going on with Gen Z's mental health.

作为一个从小在互联网上长大的年轻女性，你觉得这跟社交媒体有关吗？

Do you connect it to social media as a young woman who grew up online?

是的，我觉得社交媒体是其中非常关键的一个因素。

Yeah, I think social media is a huge part of it.

我的基本观点是，这其实是多种因素共同作用的结果。

My basic argument is that it's a lot of different things.

我觉得我们这一代人在很多方面都缺乏稳固的基础。

I think that we, as a generation, had a very unstable foundation in many ways.

我们很多人成长在不稳定的家庭环境中。

A lot of us had unstable families.

我们连隔壁邻居都不认识。

We didn't know our neighbors.

也没有那种归属感和社区的联结。

We didn't have a sense of community.

我们的宗教信仰也少多了。

We're much less religious.

因此，生活中能带来归属、安全感和稳定的来源就更少了。

And so we have less sources of belonging and security and stability in our lives.

然后我想，社交媒体平台就这样出现了。

And then I think what happened is these social media platforms came along.

那时候我们就像漂浮着，没有任何依靠。

And we're sort of adrift at that time with nothing to anchor us.

这些平台本质上提供了一系列模拟品和替代品，填补了我们从未体验过的东西。

And what these platforms essentially do is offer a series of simulations and substitutes for these things that we never experienced.

我们这一代人常常以为，社区就是像Instagram那样的东西。

And so something that is quite painful about my generation is that we think a community is something like Instagram.

我们从Reddit上寻求建议，或者看YouTube上的网红，因为我们根本没经历过认识邻居、拥有真实社区的生活。

And we get advice from people on Reddit, or we watch YouTube influencers, because we haven't actually had the experience of knowing our neighbors and having a community.

所以我的观点并不是说问题只出在社交媒体，而是社交媒体特别糟糕，因为我们本来就缺乏生活中的这些根基。

And so I think my argument is not that it's just social media, but I think social media was particularly bad because we were already in a vulnerable position where we didn't have these sort of anchors in life.

你说得对，网上确实也能有很好的互动。

And so, you know, you're completely right that people can have great interactions online.

但我认为，从小就在网上社交、对线上社群习以为常，会让人在某种程度上停滞不前。

But I think growing up interacting online and getting very comfortable with an online community And the online way of socializing stunts you somehow.

它消耗了你投入真实社群所需的时间和精力。

And it drains the time and the energy that it takes to join a real community.

我经常说，对我们这一代人来说，其实我们还不够孤独，因为我们可以用这些虚拟替代品来稍稍填补空虚，比如看个YouTube视频，就不必出门和朋友见面了。

And I often argue that I think for our generation, we're actually not lonely enough because we can use all of these simulations to sort of fill that void a little bit so we can watch a YouTube video instead of going out with friends.

这能带来一点点连接感，但却让你失去了真正出门去认识新朋友的动力。

And it's a little hit of connection, but it stops you from actually going out and trying to meet people.

你是怎么应对这一切的？

How do you cope with all of this?

你不用社交媒体，但你所在的行业却高度依赖它。

You're not on social media, but you are in an industry that is quite dependent on it.

是的，这确实是个矛盾。

Yeah, of course, it's a tension.

对我来说，关键在于守护好自己的私人生活，尽量别把所有回忆都拿去营销，别全盘交出去。

I think for me, the message is really about your personal life and protecting that as much as you can and trying not to market all of your memories and give it all up.

但我觉得社交媒体已经彻底改变了这一切。

But I think social media has changed everything.

它改变了每一条职业道路。

It's changed every career path.

我觉得不管进入哪个行业，你都得像个表演者一样。

I think every industry you go into, you do have to be the entertainer.

你得多少有点网红的气质。

You have to be an influencer somewhat.

你得把自己的想法包装好，还要讲究美感，然后推广出去。

You have to package up your ideas and, again, make them aesthetic and market them.

所以我觉得，个人层面还是可以划一些界限的。

And so I think I think there are lines you can draw personally.

我们已经听了三位专家对Z世代心理健康问题的看法。

So we've heard from three different experts about the Gen Z mental health story.

坦白说，他们说的都指向同一个问题：情况确实不太乐观。

And frankly, what they've all had to say suggests that there's a bit of a problem.

随着我们这个系列即将收官，很明显，还有太多话没说完。

As the series we set out to make draws to a close, what's clear is that there is still so much more to say.

你们的邮件、语音留言、评论和担忧，我们都在看，未来我们会继续深入报道这些问题。

Your emails, your voice notes, your comments, your concerns, we're reading all of them, and we'll be looking at what more we can do to cover these issues in the future.

请前往 therestispolitics.com 注册。

Sign up at therestispolitics.com.

如果你是学生，记得用你的学生邮箱注册，享受专属优惠。

And if you're a student, make sure you sign up with your student email address for an exclusive discount.

不过在那之前，感谢你和我一起聆听这期关于Z世代的故事，我是维基·斯普拉特。

But for now, thanks for listening to the Gen Z story with me, Vicky Spratt.