2025年度精选（上篇）：塑造我们的对话

这不太好。

That's not great.

但如果你从这样的角度出发：好吧。

But if you come at it from like, alright.

我其实不想做这种行为。

I don't really feel like doing this behavior.

我还是试试吧。

I'll try it.

它还真管用。

It kinda works.

你看，就是这样。

And that's look.

在所有这些领域都是如此，你知道吗？

That's true in all these domains, you know?

我非常尊重那些获得美妙情感回报的人，他们对锻炼有着强烈的渴望。

Like, I I respect so many people that get the, like, the wonderful emotional hit that have the, like, craving for working out.

我从来没有那种感觉。

I never have that.

对我来说，这总是件苦差事。

It's always a slog for me.

我曾希望，随着做得越来越多，我会逐渐喜欢上它。

I've hoped that doing it more and more, I'll get into it.

但从没发生过。

Never is.

但每次做完，我都会想：哦，这真不错。

But every time I do it, when I'm done, I'm like, oh, that was great.

我为什么讨厌做这件事？

Why did I hate doing that?

我到底怎么了？

What's my problem?

对吧？

Right?

我认为同样的道理也适用于为他人做好事。

And I think the same thing can be true for doing nice things for others.

对我来说，和人交谈也是如此。

For me, that's also true for like talking to people.

根据我所有的研究，我知道和陌生人交谈会让你更快乐，我可以告诉你那篇期刊文章的名字，对吧。

I know that talking to strangers from all my studies, again, I can like tell you the journal article name, right, that it makes you happier.

但我就是不想和人交谈。

But I'm just like, don't really feel like talking to people.

但每次我真的去做了之后，就会想：好吧，我确实应该多做这件事。

But then inevitably when I do it, I'm like, okay, I should really do it.

最后我会感觉更好。

I wind up feeling better.

你知道吗，今天坐飞机来这儿的时候，我旁边坐了一个人，他重重地坐下来，这个人有点残疾，上座位时很吃力，看起来有点沮丧。

You know, even on the plane over here today, was sitting next to someone who kind of plopped down and this individual is sort of disabled and like had a tough time getting in and was sort of seemingly sort of frustrated.

我当时有个念头，我只想看手机、查邮件，这就是我的欲望和动机在驱使我做的事，但我知道，从幸福的角度来说，我应该试着让这个人开心一点。

And I had this moment of like, all I wanna do is look at my phone and check my email, that's all my craving and motivation is telling me to do, but I know happiness wise I should like try to brighten this person's day.

于是我这么做了，我们聊了一会儿，然后我感觉心情明朗了一些，你知道吗，在飞行的前十分钟，我觉得自己让他的这次飞行体验比我只是独自一人时要好了一些。

And so I did it, and we had a little chat, and then I felt a little bit brighter, you know, the first ten minutes into the flight and feel like I've made, you know, his version of that flight a little bit better than if I was just kinda on my own.

我们马上回来，但首先，插播一个简短的广告。

We'll be back in a flash, but first, a quick break.

今天我们由Prolon赞助播出。

We're brought to you today by Prolon.

根据已确立和新出现的科学证据，间歇性禁食在维护我们的健康以及延长寿命方面具有重要作用。

It is pretty clear at this point based upon established and newly emerging evidence based science that periodic fasting holds an important place in tending to our health, as well as extending longevity.

然而，市面上有这么多不同类型的禁食方式。

That said, there are just so many different kinds of fasting out there.

坦白说，它们看起来都相当极端。

And admittedly it all kind of comes across as pretty extreme.

这正是我欣赏我的朋友、也是节目的常客朗戈博士的原因之一。

This is but one reason why I appreciate the work of my friend and repeat friend of the pod, Doctor.

沃尔特·朗戈。

Walter Longo.

作为南加州大学长寿研究所的主任，沃尔特是禁食领域的世界顶尖专家，也是Prolon和模拟禁食饮食的创始人。这种饮食是一种周期性的五天营养方案，提供美味的植物性食物，如汤、零食和饮品，这些食物在允许食用的同时，还能触发完全禁食状态下产生的细胞再生。

As director of USC's longevity Institute, Walter is the world's leading expert on fasting and the man behind Prolong and the fasting mimicking diet, which is basically this periodic five day nutrition protocol in which you're provided with delicious plant based foods, things like soups, snacks, and beverages that you're permitted to eat, that also at the same time trigger the cellular rejuvenation produced by a completely fasted state.

Prolon的新一代产品采用100%有机汤品和茶饮，口感更浓郁，食用更便捷。

Prolon's new next gen program features 100% organic soups and teas with richer taste and ready to eat convenience.

该产品由南加州大学长寿研究所研发，已被证明有助于降低生物年龄、改善代谢健康并提升能量水平。

Developed at USC's Longevity Institute, it's shown to support biological age reduction, metabolic health, and energy.

Prolon能激活自噬作用——这一获得诺贝尔奖的细胞修复过程。

Prolon triggers autophagy, the Nobel prize winning cellular repair process.

它是首个也是唯一一个通过细胞再生来支持长寿的专利营养方案。

It's the first and only patented nutritional program to support longevity through cellular rejuvenation.

因此，如果你正在考虑采用禁食方案，这个方案有真实的科研背书。

So if you're considering a fasting protocol, this one is backed by real research.

并且在限时优惠期间，Prolon为所有听众提供全站15%的折扣，以及订阅其五天方案时额外赠送40美元礼品。

And for a limited time, Prolon is offering all of you guys, my listeners, 15% off sitewide plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their five day program.

请立即访问 prolonlife.comrichroll。

Just visit prolonlife.comrichroll.

前往 prolonlife.comrichroll 领取您的 15% 折扣和赠品。

That's prolonlife.comrichroll to claim your 15% discount and your bonus gift.

prolonlife.comrichroll。

Prolonlife.comrichroll.

我们生活在一个永不停歇的疯狂自我提升工业复合文化中。

We live in this insane self improvement industrial complex culture that just never lets up.

优化你的育儿方式，提升你的关系，改善你的晨间习惯，在工作中表现得更好。

Optimize your parenting, level up your relationships, up level your morning routine, perform better at work.

无论怎样，总会有另一个指标、另一个标准来衡量你自己。

No matter what, there's always another metric, always another benchmark to judge yourself against.

老实说，这实在太多了。

And quite honestly, it's a lot.

所以，当我感到压力过大或自我怀疑时，我需要暂停并重新调整，Calm 就是我用来释放压力、在最忙碌的日子里也能找到呼吸空间的工具。

So when that feeling of overwhelm or inadequacy hits me when I need to hit pause and reset, Calm is a tool that I reach for to release stress and find space to breathe even on the busiest days.

我使用 Calm 已经多年，它对我有效的原因在于，它并不是另一个要求完美的工具。

I've been using Calm for years and what makes it work for me is that it's not just another thing that's demanding perfection.

它只是在那里，一个呼吸练习、一段专家谈话，帮助我转变视角，或者在晚上帮我稍微平静思绪，让我能放下一天的负担，好好休息。

It's just something that's there, a breathing exercise, an expert talk to shift my perspective, or something to just help quiet my mind a little bit at night so I can let go of the day and rest.

Calm 是睡眠和冥想领域的第一应用，旨在帮助你感觉更好。

Calm is the number one app for sleep and meditation, and it's here to help you feel better.

提供针对焦虑和压力的引导式冥想、助眠故事、应对压力的接地练习，以及专家讲座。

Guided meditations for anxiety and stress, sleep stories for restful sleep, grounding exercises for when you're feeling overwhelmed, and expert led talks.

Calm 应用将你需要的工具直接放在你的口袋里。

Calm app puts the tools you need right in your pocket.

目前，Calm 为本节目的听众提供了独家优惠。

And right now, Calm has an exclusive offer just for listeners of our show.

前往 calm.com/richroll，享受Calm高级订阅40%的折扣。

Get 40% off Calm premium subscription at calm.com/richroll.

访问 calm.com/richroll，享受Calm全部内容库的无限访问权限，立享40%折扣。

Go to calm.com/richroll for 40% off unlimited access to Calm's entire library.

Calm.com/richroll。

Calm.com/richroll.

在补充剂领域，一旦某种产品变得主流，市场就会被充斥，质量也随之下降。

There's this thing that happens in the supplement space where the second something goes mainstream, the market gets flooded and quality tanks.

肌酸现在正经历着这样的过程。

Creatine, sort of going through this right now.

大家终于意识到，它不仅仅适用于健美人士。

Everyone finally gets that it's not just for Jim Bros.

它对大脑健康、恢复和长寿都有益处。

It's for brain health and recovery and longevity.

但现在，众多品牌纷纷推出软糖版本，本质上只是糖果。

But now you've got all these brands pumping out gummy versions that are essentially just candy.

Momentous 采取了不同的方法，这也是我喜欢他们并与其合作的原因之一。

Momentous took a different approach, which is one of the reasons why I love them and why I partner with them.

他们花了数年时间，而不是几个月，坚持在不妥协的前提下才推出咀嚼型产品。

They spent years, not months, years, refusing to release a chewable until they could do it without compromising.

结果就是 Momentous 肌酸咀嚼片，它达到了他们所谓的 Momentous 标准——我还要补充一点，这个标准同样受到奥运选手和职业球队的信任。

And the result of this is Momentous Creatine Chews, which meets what they call the Momentous standard, the same standard, I might add, trusted by Olympians and pro teams.

每颗咀嚼片含有1克纯肌酸一水合物，原料单一，来自德国，经过NSF运动认证，且不含任何奇怪的人工添加剂。

Each chew delivers one gram of pure creatine monohydrate, single source from Germany, NSF certified for sport, of course, and without any weird artificial stuff.

现在你可以把它们放在任何地方，彻底消除了粉末和摇杯带来的所有不便。

Now you can keep them anywhere, which removes all the friction that comes with powders and shakers.

请前往 livemomentous.com，使用代码 rich roll，首次购买最高可享35%折扣。

So head over to livemomentous.com and use code rich roll for up to 35% off your first order.

好的。

Okay.

让我们回到节目中，来看一段哈佛心理学家艾伦·兰格的视频。

Let's get back to the show with a clip from Harvard psychologist, Ellen Langer.

我觉得我们只是让自己把事情变得非常复杂，但随着年龄增长，一切又会变得简单起来。

I think that we just make things very complicated for ourselves, and then you get older and it all becomes easier again.

你曾经担心的那些事情，现在看来都那么可笑。

All the things you worried about seem so silly.

我很久以前写过这么一段话。

You know, I wrote this thing a while ago.

你两岁的时候摔倒了，腿擦伤了，就以为世界末日到了，哭得撕心裂肺。

You're two years old, and you fall, and you scrape your leg, and screaming bloody murders if the world's gonna end.

你七岁的时候。

You're seven years old.

Johnny或者Janie没给你送情人节卡片，你就觉得世界末日要来了。

Johnny or Janie doesn't send you a Valentine, and, oh my god, the world's gonna end.

你十三岁了。

You're, you know, 13.

你长了颗痘痘。

You have a pimple.

天哪。

Oh my god.

我永远都不会变好看。

I'm never gonna look good.

你十八岁了。

You're 18.

而且这种情况一直持续下去。

And it just goes on.

在某个时刻，你会回望这一切，觉得这一切多么愚蠢。

At some point, you look back on all of it and say, how stupid it all was.

在某种程度上，文化允许甚至几乎在推动这种现象。

And the culture allows it in some sense, almost promotes it.

我不确定为什么会这样。

I am not sure why.

但到最后，总有人从中获利。

But at the end of it, there's always somebody who's profiting.

与此同时，

Meanwhile,

是啊，你回过头来看，会觉得很可笑。

yeah, you look back on it and say, how silly.

但与此同时，当年你在七年级时没收到那张情人节卡片之类的事，会在你的大脑中形成某种神经通路，三十年后你依然在为此行为，因为那是一种未愈合的创伤。

But at the same time, the fact that you like didn't get that Valentine when you were in seventh grade or whatever, you know, create some neural pathway in your brain that, you know, thirty years later, you're still acting out on as a result because it's some form of trauma that remained unhealed.

是啊。

Yeah.

你知道，但要意识到他人对我们的反应是他们自身需求的反映。

You know, but to recognize that other people's responses to us are a function of their needs.

这与我们自身无关。

They say nothing about us.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以，你给我的每一个赞美，其实都不是关于我的。

So every compliment you give me is not really about me.

而是更多关于你自己的。

It's more about you.

是啊。

Yeah.

侮辱我的需求

Insult My need

让你喜欢我。

for you to like me.

嗯。

Yeah.

每一个侮辱等等。

Every insult and so on.

如果我们从小就被教导理解这些事情，即使七岁的孩子，只要用孩子能听懂的话解释，就能明白——比如约翰尼没给你情人节卡片。

And if we were brought up to understand those things, even a seven year old can understand them if they're spoken in kiddies, then Johnny doesn't give you the Valentine.

嗯。

Yeah.

所以约翰尼没给你情人节卡片。

So Johnny didn't give you a Valentine.

这并不意味着，你知道的，你就从这一点去想。

It doesn't have to you know, you go from that.

你没收到情人节卡片，所以没人喜欢你。

You didn't get the Valentine, therefore, nobody likes you.

因此，你的人生注定会失败。

Therefore, your life is going to be a fail.

这太荒谬了。

It's It's silly.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，我们该如何向孩子们传达这些观念？

I mean, how do we communicate these things to the children?

有人会问：玛丽，你收到了多少张情人节卡片？

Somebody says, how many Valentine's did you get, Mary?

你收到的比苏西多，所以你就是个更好的人。

And you got more than Susie, so therefore you're a better person.

而苏西，你会说：没错，但我收到的是最重要的人送的情人节卡片。

Whereas Susie, you say, Yeah, but I've got the valentines from the most important people.

这太疯狂了。

That's all crazy.

太疯狂了。

It's crazy.

是啊。

Yeah.

你

You

你知道吗，我跟你说过那个胰腺的故事，就是我明明不想吃胰腺，却觉得自己必须吃，因为我在这个非常年轻的年纪已经结婚了。

know, I talked to you about how that pancreas story, you know, that I still can't this was a story where I'm not gonna eat the pancreas, but I feel I have to eat it because now I'm a married woman at this very young age.

我仍然想不明白我为什么会这么想。

And I still can't figure out why I thought that.

你知道，我们被灌输了很多这样的观念。

You know, that there's so many things that are communicated to us.

你知道，如果你足够成熟，就会做所有这些事情。

You know, if you're sophisticated, these are all the things that you'll do.

我们回头看看，那些人我都不认识。

And we go back and people I don't know.

这已经成为我的新座右铭。

It's become my new mantra.

谁说的？

Who says so?

你知道吗？

You know?

当你意识到我提到的这三个层次时，你知道，第一层和第三层看起来一样，但它们非常不同。

And when you recognize the three levels that I talked about, you know, where level one and three look the same, but they're very different.

一层、二层、三层的思维方式。

Level one, two, three thinking.

也许解释一下。

Maybe explain that.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，最简单的例子，我老是拿《纽约客》来说。

Well, you know, the easiest example, I keep using The New Yorker.

这是一本很棒的杂志，虽然这个例子并不突出，但也只能这样了。

It's a wonderful magazine, and this example doesn't shine, but so be it.

第一层，有些人根本不读《纽约客》。

Level one, we have people who don't read The New Yorker.

第二层，有些人读《纽约客》。

Level two, people who read The New Yorker.

第三层，有些人不再读《纽约客》了。

Level three people who don't read The New Yorker anymore.

第一层和第三层看起来一样，但他们是完全不同的人。

Level one and three look the same, but they're very different people.

你可以让他们再读一遍，但那样会让故事变得太复杂。

You can have them read it again, but that makes the story too complicated.

你知道，一个小孩子天性无拘无束，而世界上其他人都很拘谨，但到了某个阶段，你会想：谁在乎呢？

You know, you have a young kid is uninhibited, the rest of the world is inhibited, and then you get to a certain point where you say, who gives a damn?

你知道吗？

You know?

然后你就变得无所顾忌了。

And you become disinhibited.

但当人们指责老年人像孩子一样时，他们其实不是。

But when they accuse the older person of being like a child, they're not.

他们非常不同。

They're very different.

孩子并不知道规则。

The child doesn't know the rule.

老年人知道规则，但觉得它很荒谬。

The older person knows the rule and thinks it's silly.

你知道吗？

You know?

我记得，呃，这真的太傻了，但如果我弄脏了衬衫，你知道，我会这样走来走去，生怕别人看到，却没意识到这种行为本身有多可笑，仿佛每一刻都会定义我们一生，人们不会意识到：是的，你身上沾点污渍很正常。

And I remember, know, again, this is so silly, but if I had gotten, spilled something on my shirt, you know, I I'd be walking around like this, you know, so nobody would see it without realizing how ridiculous this itself looks, as if every moment is this is gonna describe who we are for a lifetime, that people won't realize, yes, you could have dirt on yourself.

一分钟并不能决定你该如何穿衣。

One minute doesn't mean that's the way you wear your clothes.

你穿着两只不同的鞋子。

You're wearing two different shoes.

这并不意味着你不知道，穿同一双鞋会有不同的反应。

Doesn't mean, you you don't know that, there'll be a different response to wearing the same shoe.

所有人都在担心别人怎么想，但每个人都知道自己其实并不清楚。

All everybody, worrying so about what other people think, and everybody knows they themselves don't know.

而可笑的是，人们以为别人真的知道。

And the joke is thinking that other people do know.

所以你总是在猜测什么才是正确的做法。

And so you're always guessing at what's the right thing to do.

我在这里想告诉大家：没人知道，也不可能知道，因为一切都在变化，从不同角度看事物都不同，不知道没关系，因为你还有其他知道的事情。

And I'm here to inform people nobody knows, and nobody can know because everything is changing, everything looks different from different perspectives, and it's okay not to know because there are other things you do know.

接下来出场的是世界冠军山地自行车手凯特·考特尼。

Next up is world champion mountain biker, Kate Courtney.

那么，你会对那些想找一件全身心投入的事，却还不确定那是什么的人说什么呢？

So what do you say to the person who's looking for something to go all in on, but doesn't quite know what that is?

这是个非常好的问题。

It's a really good question.

我认为关键是倾听那种好奇心和兴奋感。

I think it's about listening to that curiosity and excitement.

你就跟着它走。

And I think you just follow it.

你只需追随那些微小的线索，感受那种情绪，并在需要时愿意冒一点风险，去发现自己的潜力。

You just follow the little breadcrumbs of that feeling and and be willing to take a little risk when you need to to find out what you're capable of.

这无法被制造出来，也无法被伪装。

It can't be manufactured, and it can't be faked.

对吧？

Right?

但你也不能只是被动等待它突然降临。

Like, But you also can't just wait to be struck with it.

我认为这些事情是通过行动展现出来的，正如你所说，愿意探索自己的好奇心。

I think those things are revealed through doing things, and to your point, being willing to explore your curiosities.

我认为现代世界有一种方式，会逐渐侵蚀我们与自身好奇心的关系，因为我们被告诉必须做这些事，或者成功应该是这样，或者你该走的路应该是怎样的。

And I think the modern world has a way of like eroding our relationship with our own curiosity, because we're told we need to do these things, or this is what success looks like, or the path that you should be on.

而好奇心被视为一种奢侈，或者是我们倾向于压抑、抑制的东西，而不是去靠近它。

And curiosities are an indulgence or something that we kind of like repress or quash rather than kind of move towards.

现在似乎非常关注我们从事情中能得到什么，这确实很重要。

It feels like there's a lot of focus on what we get out of things right now, which is important.

我的意思是，如果在我职业生涯的某些关键时刻，运气的天平没有向我倾斜，我也不会坐在这里。

I mean, I would not be sitting here if things hadn't if the pendulum of luck hadn't kind of swung in the right direction at certain races in my career.

对吧？

Right?

所以我不是说成就和你从事情中获得的东西完全不重要。

So I'm not saying that accomplishments and and what you get out of things doesn't matter at all.

我是活在现实中的。

Like, I live in reality.

但我发现，更好的指引是你能为事物付出什么。

But I find that a better compass is what you can give to things.

而且

And

我来告诉你

I'll tell

一个小故事，现在我已经把一切都联系到了奥运会，你知道，这些关键的时刻确实会产生深远影响，你会从中学习。

you a little story, and this now I've related everything back to the Olympics, which, you know, I guess these pivotal moments, they really make an impact and you learn from them.

但我从小就想，如果我参加奥运会，我就去纹一个奥运纹身。

But I always thought, like, from when I was a little kid that if I went to Olympics, I'd go get the Olympic tattoo.

对吧？

Right?

这就像

That's like the

当然。

Sure.

性感而专注的事物。

Sexy, focused thing.

所以我去参加了，但并没有什么了不起的经历。

So I go, I don't have this great experience.

我显然没有纹那个纹身。

I obviously do not get the tattoo.

你不想看着它，被完全提醒。

You don't wanna look at it and be reminded of Completely.

是的。

Yeah.

然后我没能入选巴黎奥运会代表队，这一点我们还没谈到。

And then I don't make the Paris team, which we didn't really get to.

但我当时世界排名第十，赛季表现其实很不错，但另外两位美国选手在前两站世界杯中都排在前三，他们表现得太出色了，赢得了那些席位。

But, yeah, I I was ranked, you know, tenth in the world and actually had a really good season, but the other two Americans were top three at the first two World Cups, and they just absolutely crushed it, and they earned those spots.

于是我只能坐在家里。

And so I'm like sitting at home.

嗯。

Mhmm.

在这段时间里，我去探望了我的哥哥。

And during this period, I went and visited my brother.

我们最后一起去纹了相同的纹身。

And we ended up going, and we got matching tattoos.

我来告诉你我们纹了什么。

And I'll tell you what we got there.

它非常小。

It's very small.

你不知道它在哪里，但它在我肋骨上。

You don't know where it is, but it's, it's on my ribs.

我最终在肋骨上纹了‘给他们点颜色看看’这几个字，背后有个很好的故事。

And I ended up getting the words give them hell tattooed on my ribs, and there's a good story as to why.

我爷爷从小到大，每当我做任何事情时，他都会对我说‘给他们点颜色看看’。

So my grandpa growing up, every time I did anything in my life, he would tell me give them hell.

那是他的座右铭，对我们来说就是：在你做的每件事上，都要全力以赴。

And that was his, like, mantra to us was just like give everything you've got in what you do.

在他参加许多艰苦比赛前，他会给我发视频，说这句话，这对我影响深远，因为它关乎在每一个当下都直面自己，并倾尽所有。

And he sent me videos before a bunch of hard races where he said that message, and it it really impacted me because it's about being willing to meet yourself in every moment and give what you've got.

我想，早期或许奥运会、追求赛车，是为了获得那个炫目的纹身，为了成就，为了能说：看，我做到了，我得到了什么。

And I think, you know, early on, maybe the Olympics, maybe pursuing racing was about getting the flashy tattoo and having the accomplishment and being able to say, like, here, look what I did, and here's what I got for it.

但对我来说，现在我问自己的问题是：我能给予什么？

But I think for me now, the question I ask is, like, what can I give?

我愿意走多远，去彻底释放这份潜能，在还有机会时倾尽所有？

And how far am I willing to go to exhaust that potential and to give everything I have while I still have the opportunity to give it?

这是一种奉献。

It's service.

也就是说，我给予了什么？

It's like, what am I giving?

而不是我从这件事中攫取了什么？

Not what am I what am I extracting from this?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，当你在寻找能充实你内心、并能成为长期值得追求的事情时，关键在于你正在做一件全身心投入、并在那一刻享受其中的事情。

And I think when you're looking for what will fill your cup and what will be a worthy pursuit over a long period of time, I think it's a lot about what what thing are you doing where you're giving everything and in that moment, you're enjoying it.

对吧？

Right?

比如，深度投入到一项活动中，无论是回馈社区，还是在自行车训练中全力以赴，这种行为如此富有启发性，以至于最终你确实获得了某种收获。

Like, the deep engagement with the activity, whether it's like giving back to the community, whether it's giving everything in an interval on your bike, like, where that act is so illuminating that at the end, you have gotten something.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一种副产品。

It's a byproduct.

它是

It's

还有，你知道，又出现了这种奇怪的情况，你可能会让自己陷入困境，因为人们会说：拼尽全力，把你能给的一切都拿出来。

also, you know, kind of this weird thing again where you might trip yourself up because it's like, give them hell, like give it give it everything you've got.

就像这样，它触发了所有那些按钮——你知道的，我要过度训练，我要住在小木屋里，如果我要全力以赴，那我就需要这些东西来做到这一点。

Like that pushes all the buttons of the like, you know, I'm gonna overtrain and I'm gonna like, you know, live in a cabin and be like, if I if I'm gonna give them hell, then here's what I need in order to do that.

但你现在是以更成熟、更开阔的心态来看待这个问题——全力以赴，意味着你需要有整体的视角，比如留出时间去和这些你想引入这项运动的女性和女孩们一起骑车，和这些品牌合作——你的生活现在要大得多，对吧？

But it's an ex you're coming at this like more mature, more expansive, like to give it all you've got, like requires that holistic piece where you are making room for going on bike rides with all of these women and girls that you're trying to get into the sport and you're working with these brands, like you're doing, your life is much bigger now, right?

全力以赴，意味着要服务这些不同的方面，这些价值维度，它们不仅能让你的运动生涯持续下去，还能赋予你的生活意义。

Like giving it all you've got means serving all of these different things, all of these value buckets that allow you to sustain your athletic career, but give your life meaning.

这位是心理学家兼研究员伊桑·克罗斯。

This is psychologist and researcher, Ethan Cross.

此时我脑海中想到的是，我正试图让自己进入那种痛苦的状态。

Where my head is going at this moment is thinking like I'm trying to put myself in that state of distress.

我足够了解自己，知道当我身处负面情绪体验中时，很难去寻找解决方案。

And I know myself well enough to know that like when I'm in the midst of like a negative emotional experience, it's more difficult to grasp for the solution.

尽管这种状态令人不适，但你却抗拒改变它。

Like there's something that as uncomfortable as it is, you're resistant to changing it.

因为它在某种程度上为你提供了某种作用。

Like it is doing something for you.

在某种潜意识层面，你以一种适应性的方式选择了它，这让我难以主动寻求帮助或找到出路。

Like on some unconscious level, you're choosing it in an adaptive way, I suppose, that makes me resistant to like reach out for help or to find a way out of it.

我更倾向于放任它。

Like I'm more likely to like indulge it.

而且，如果你发现这种方法对你很有帮助，那确实如此。

Well, and if you find that that approach is serving you well, that is

我的意思是，并没有。

I mean, it's not.

那么，我认为如果这对你没有帮助，提前预见到这种直觉——即我必须进一步沉浸在这种情绪中——并不会帮助我。

Well, then I think if that's not serving you well, having the foresight to recognize actually this intuition I have to lean into this emotion even further, it is not going to help me.

提前演练这一点，我们可以讨论具体怎么做，因为我的书倒数第二章正是关于如何从‘知道’走向‘做到’，对吧？

Rehearsing that ahead of time, and we can go over how to do that, because actually the penultimate chapter of my book is all about how you go from knowing to doing, right?

当你身处风暴中心时，如何提醒自己，那些默认的倾向可能并不具有适应性？

How when you find yourself in the midst of the storm, can you be reminded that your default tendencies may not be adaptive?

让我们引入一些转变策略。

Let's plug in some of these shifters.

我们会讨论你如何做到这一点。

We'll talk about how you could do that.

但如果你意识到，有时候我们的直觉并不能很好地为我们服务。

But if if, you know, I think recognizing that sometimes our our instincts don't serve us well.

我的意思是，担忧就是一个很好的例子。

I mean, worry is a great example of this.

对吧？

Right?

担忧正是我第一本书的主题。

So worry is just the topic of my first book.

很多人担忧，是因为他们认为担忧会帮助他们。

A lot of people worry because they think it's going to help them.

担忧让人感觉特别安心。

There's something that feels really secure about worrying.

对吧？

Right?

因为我觉得，这是一件非常重要的事。

Because I look, this is a really important thing.

所以让我试着从各个角度来分析这个问题。

So let me try to figure out every possible angle on this.

你的大脑是一台难以置信的超级计算机。

Like your brain is an unbelievable supercomputer.

你能够设想出无穷无尽的最坏情况，这真的很了不起。

Your ability to come up with an infinite number of what if worst case scenarios, this is remarkable.

但在某个时刻，这种能力是有用的，直到它不再有用。

Now at certain point, like it's useful until it ceases to be useful.

通常来说，我认为这种不再有用的情况发生在担忧开始后的三分钟内，而不是三天、三周或三个月后。

Typically, think the ceases to be useful happens like three three minutes into the worry bout rather than three days or three weeks or three months.

所以，认识到你想要沉溺于此的冲动并没有帮助你，给自己许可去做一个小实验。

So recognizing that this temptation you have to lean into this is not serving you well and giving yourself the permission to do a little experiment.

下次当你发现自己非常想沉溺于悲伤或焦虑时，试试别的方法，看看效果如何，尝试一些那些转移注意力的技巧。

Just give yourself like the next time you find yourself really wanting to indulge in the sadness or the anxiety, let's try something else and see how that works out and try some of those shifters.

这是我希望你们所有人，包括在听的每一个人，去尝试的事情。

That is something I would invite you and everyone else listening to do.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我也同样喜欢对自己这样做。

And I like, again, myself too.

有时候我必须承认，我喜欢在问题一发生就立即去解决。

Like I've sometimes had to, I love approaching problems right when they happen.

我天生并不倾向于回避问题。

I'm not dispositionally avoidant.

一旦发生什么事，我喜欢立刻处理，防患于未然，然后继续前进，非常务实。

When something happens, I like to deal with it, nip it in the bud, move on, very tactical.

我逐渐意识到，有时候这种方法并不奏效。

I have learned that sometimes that does not work well.

特别是在人际互动中，有时当我与别人发生争执时，他们需要一些时间来调整状态，之后我们才能有效地处理当前的问题。

In particular, in an interpersonal context, sometimes if I'm in an argument with someone else, they need some time to recalibrate before we can productively deal with the situation at hand.

我得强迫自己。

I have to force myself.

好了，伊森，你先分散一下注意力。

All right, Ethan, you're gonna distract for a while.

我会全身心投入工作，持续几个小时，甚至好几天。

And I lean into work hard for like several hours or several days even.

这真的对我很有帮助。

And that really serves me well.

我要告诉你的是，既然我从中受益了，它就打破了之前那种不再有益的自动反应模式。

And I'll tell you what, now that I've benefited from that, it has broken the previous automatic response pattern that was not serving me well.

是的。

Yeah.

关于这种解决问题的倾向，有趣的是，你内心的独白可能是：这是一种积极的品质。

What's interesting about that predisposition to problem solve, like, would imagine your inner monologue is like, this is a positive quality.

当我看到问题时，我会立刻解决它。

Like, when I see a problem, I solve it right away.

但如果你好奇为什么会这样，或许你会发现，你对不确定性有着深层的不适感，你知道吗？是什么在驱动这种行为呢？

But if you're curious about why that is, perhaps you may find a deep discomfort with uncertainty, you know, it's like what's driving that behavior, right?

而这种不确定性如此令人不适，以至于必须被消除，而消除它的最好方式就是立刻解决问题，对吧？

And that uncertainty is so uncomfortable that it has to be eradicated and the best way to eradicate it is to just solve the problem, right?

嗯。

Well.

相反，你去感受一下坐在不确定性中的感觉会是怎样？

As opposed to what does it feel like to sit in that uncertainty instead?

或者你可以选择安坐于不确定性之中，这是你可以做的一件事。

Or you could sit in the uncertainty, that's one thing you can do.

你也可以通过积极地转移注意力来避开不确定性，让时间平复与不确定性相关的负面情绪，看看这样会带来什么效果。

You can also productively distract from the uncertainty and let time temper the emotional response linked with whatever is driving the uncertainty and see what that does for you.

或者你可以和别人聊聊。

Or you can talk to someone else.

但和谁聊来帮助你重新看待这种不确定性，你得小心选择。

You gotta be careful who you talk to to help you reframe the uncertainty.

或者你可以依靠你的文化寻求支持，如果你相信某种更高的力量或有灵性，可以激活这些资源。

Or you can lean on your culture for support, and if you believe in a higher power or are spiritual, activate some of those resources.

你可以做很多事情来应对这种体验。

There are lots of things you can do to deal with that experience.

其中一两件事，甚至三四件事，可能比默认的应对方式——即用担忧去强行压制它——要有效得多。

And one of those things or two or three may be far more productive than the default, which is to just try to kind of hammer it away with the worries.

我们继续与长寿科学家瓦尔特·隆戈对话。

We continue with longevity scientist, Walter Longo.

关于你的工作，有趣的是——也许作为一位科研人员，你有些不同寻常之处——那就是你在思考如何平衡发现的有效性与大众的可持续性和依从性。

What's interesting about your work is that, and maybe what's somewhat unusual about you as somebody who is a research scientist, is that you are thinking about how you balance your discoveries around efficaciousness with sustainability and adherence in the general population.

在显微镜下取得发现并从中推导出某种原理是一回事，但如何将这些发现转化为普通人能够采纳、坚持并长期受益的实践呢？

It's one thing to look under a microscope, have a discovery and extrapolate from that into some sort of principle, but how can that be translated into something that the average person can take and use, sustain that will benefit them over time?

是的。

Yes.

而且我认为，我们希望将研究推进到彻底治愈疾病，而不仅仅是治疗，对吧？

And I think that we want to take it all the way to disease cures, not just treatment, cures, right?

例如，对于糖尿病，我们现在有三到四项试验，全部显示疾病衰退了百分之五十到七十。

So now, for example, with diabetes, we now have three or four trials, all of them showing a fifty to seventy percent regression of the disease.

然后是FMD。

And then On the FMD.

每月仅进行一次FMD，无需改变饮食。

On the FMD, just once a month without changing their diet.

这非常重要，对吧？

And that's a very important thing, right?

所以我们不改变你的饮食，也不改变你的生活方式。

So we don't change your diet, we don't change your lifestyle.

几千年来，人们一直在说食物即药物，对吧？

And we're saying, so for thousands of years, people have been talking about food as medicine, right?

但事实上，这从未真正实现过，对吧？

But then it really never happened, right?

因此，我们正试图做的是，能否将这种以植物为基础的疗法标准化，然后在某些情况下甚至用于治愈疾病？

So that's what we're trying to do, say, can we standardize this vegan based medicine and then use it to, in some cases, even cure diseases?

因此，我认为糖尿病绝对是其中之一，我们对此非常有信心。

And so diabetes, I think is definitely one of the ones where we're very confident.

几年前，海德堡大学进行了首次试验，结果显示A1C指标显著改善，同时药物使用量也大幅减少。

And so University of Heidelberg did the first trial a couple of years ago and showed impressive, impressive effects on A1C, but also on reduction of drug use.

随后，莱顿大学重复了该试验，得到了相同的结果。

And then Leiden repeated and got the same results.

因此，我认为，这确实是将人们从疾病状态恢复到功能状态的可行方式。

And so I think, yes, this is feasible ways to bring people back to a functional state from a disease state to a functional state.

我认为，这其中很大一部分原因在于分子机制比人们想象的要复杂得多。

And I think that a lot of that has to do with molecular mechanisms that are much more sophisticated than people may imagine.

例如，我们与儿童医院的劳拉·佩林合作刚刚发表了一项研究，探讨了FMD在患有肾损伤的大鼠和肾病患者中的应用。

So for example, we just published in collaboration with Laura Perrin at a children's hospital, we published on the use of the FMD in rats with kidney damage, and then in people with kidney disease, right?

但在人类身上，我们无法直接观察到内部变化，而在大鼠身上，我们可以清楚地看到发生了什么。

But in people, of course, we don't get to see what happens, but in rats, we get to see what happens.

这真的非常惊人。

And it's really remarkable.

所以我们损伤了肾脏，你会看到基因表达的完全紊乱。

So, we damage the kidney and you see a complete disruption of the gene expression.

我们的基因在肾脏的不同细胞中被开启和关闭。

So, our genes are turned on and off in the different cells of the kidney.

然后我们开始模拟禁食饮食，你会发现，这存在一个非常精确的结构，可以说是吧？

And then we start the fasting mimicking diet and you see that, so there is a very precise architecture, let's say, right?

三维的。

Three-dimensional.

然后我们给大鼠注射这种毒素，它就能完全破坏这种结构，对吧？

And then they could completely destroy it by this toxin that we give the rats, right?

接着我们开始禁食周期，你会看到一切几乎像魔法般恢复到原来的状态。

Then we start the fasting diet cycles, and you see everything going back to where it was, almost like a magic intervention.

所以，真正起作用的并不是模拟禁食饮食本身，对吧？

So, it's not really the fasting mimicking diet that is doing anything, right?

真正起作用的是大鼠自身——人类也是如此——它们体内始终存在一些程序，可以通过禁食被激活，从而启动再生和发育类似的机制。

It is the rat that always, and people are the same, that always had programs that are able to be triggered by fasting to turn on regenerative and developmental like programs.

所以，这些基因在婴儿肾脏最初形成时也会被使用。

So, the same genes that are used when kidneys are first generated in a baby.

就像多能干细胞的生成，你指的是这个吗？

Like pluripotent stem cell generation, is that what you're talking about?

是的，没错。

Yes, yes.

因此，细胞被重编程为一些重编程因子，即山中因子，也被称为山中因子，这些因子被激活了。

So the cells are being reprogrammed into some of these reprogramming factors, the Yamanaka factors, also known as Yamanaka factors, are turned on.

你看到每个器官激活的因子都不同，对吧？

And you see that every organ is turning on different ones, right?

在某些情况下，你会看到Oct-four被激活。

So, in some cases, you see Oct-four being turned on.

在某些情况下，你会看到MYC。

In some cases, you see MYC.

因此，不同器官使用不同的因子，但它们都有一个共同点。

So, different organs use different ones, but they all have the same thing in common.

它们会激活许多参与器官生成的基因。

They turn on these many genes that are involved in organ generation.

然后，这使得它们能够从这种严重紊乱的状态恢复到之前的健康状态。

And then that's how they can go from this very disrupted state back to the previous healthy state.

所以它们确切知道该激活哪些基因来解决问题。

So they know exactly what to turn on to fix the problem.

因此，这就是模拟禁食饮食的威力。

So, yeah, so then that's the power of these fasting mimicking diets.

激活身体自我修复的能力。

So turning on the ability of the body to fix itself.

现在，对于糖尿病，我们已经看到了；对于肾病，我们也看到了；此外，在人类和动物身上，我们还看到了它在其他方面的作用，比如肠道，我们在动物研究中已经明确观察到了。

And so now, diabetes, we're seeing it, we're seeing now with kidney disease, we are now seeing it with, I mean, at least this is in humans and animals, but for some other like gut, we are clearly seeing it in animal studies.

现在，有许多试验将在临床试验中验证这一点。

And now there are many, a number of trials that will test that in clinical trials here.

我还有很多内容要讲，但先休息一下。

've got a lot more to come, but first, a quick break.

今天的节目由Broca赞助。

Today's episode is brought to you by Broca.

你知道有趣的是什么吗？

You know what's funny?

我们通常不会把眼镜视为运动装备，直到它开始妨碍我们。

We don't often think of eyewear as performance gear until it starts to get in the way.

如果你像我一样，一生都受视力问题困扰，那么对于运动员来说，这确实是个真实却缺乏真正解决方案的问题。

And if you're like me, somebody who has contended with eyesight impairment my entire life, it's a very real thing without a real solution for athletes.

我无法告诉你，在跑步过程中，我有多少次不得不不断把眼镜推回鼻梁上，因为看不清树根和石头而绊倒，或者眼镜起雾了。

I cannot tell you how many times I've been mid run constantly shoving my glasses back up my nose, tripping on roots and rocks because I couldn't see them or my glasses had fogged up.

那在自行车上呢？那里的情况显然更加危险。

Or what about out on the bike where the treachery is obviously far more intense?

因此，ROKA对我来说简直是救星。

Well, is why ROKA has been a godsend for me.

他们从性能角度出发设计处方眼镜，但并没有牺牲时尚感。

Approaching prescription eyewear from a performance perspective first, but not at the cost of fashion, I should say.

帮助像我这样的人，以及所有类型的运动员，包括环法自行车手和铁人三项冠军，让他们都能使用日常款眼镜，这非常重要。

Helping not only people like me, but all kinds of athletes, including Tour de France cyclists and Ironman champions with everyday frames is important.

他们的秘密在于专有的壁虎技术，专利的鼻托和镜腿垫，即使出汗时也能更牢固地贴合。

Their secret is their proprietary gecko technology, patented nose and temple pads that grip even more securely when you sweat.

不会滑落，不会分心，而且轻得不可思议。

No slipping, no distractions, and they're insanely lightweight.

大多数镜框重量不到一支铅笔，即使带有处方镜片，也极其轻盈。

Most frames weigh less than a pencil, super light, even with prescription lenses.

除了功能，其工艺水平也达到了极致。

Beyond the function, the craftsmanship is next level.

锐利的光学性能、坚固的结构，以及真正美观且能跟上你步伐的设计。

Razor sharp optics, durable construction, and a design that actually is beautiful and keeps up with you.

戴上它们，感受不同，无拘无束地佩戴。

So put them on, feel the difference, and wear without limits.

在 roka.com 使用代码 rich roll，享受订单 20% 的折扣。

Unlock 20% off your order with the code rich roll at roka.com.

那就是 roka.com。

That's roka.com.

你可能知道 Rivian 生产全电动皮卡和SUV。

You probably know that Rivian makes all electric trucks and SUVs.

最好是全电动皮卡和SUV。

Make that the best all electric trucks and SUVs.

但你知道吗？Rivian 通过软件更新实际上会随着时间变得更好。

But did you know that Rivian's actually improve over time through software updates?

通过定期的空中更新，技术持续进化。

Through regular over the air updates, the technology keeps evolving.

新功能、性能提升、额外的安全特性。

New features, improved performance, additional safety features.

因此，你的车辆拥有时间越长，能力就越强。

So your vehicle actually becomes more capable the longer you own it.

了解过 RJ，也就是 Rivian 的首席执行官后，我可以告诉你，他绝不是为了技术而技术的人。

And knowing RJ, Rivian CEO, I can tell you firsthand that this is a guy who is not into tech for tech's sake.

每个功能都针对真实的日常生活场景设计，例如照顾宠物的舒适度、保持车内温度，以便你在短暂离开时让狗狗保持舒适；根据环境自动调节的照明系统，以及监控道路状况的预警系统和高速公路辅助功能，让驾驶体验更安全、更愉快。

Every feature is designed for actual real world situations, like pet comfort, maintaining cabin temperature so your dog stays comfortable if you need to step away briefly, adaptive lighting that responds to the environment, plus warning systems and highway assist that monitor the road alongside you, making the driving experience safer and more enjoyable.

我非常自豪能与Rivian合作。

I'm so proud to partner with Rivian.

他们真的是最好的。

They're just the best.

你希望一辆车具备的一切功能当然都有，但更重要的是他们的理念——让世界变得更美好，提供你所需的一切，让你充分体验生活中的冒险，并运用科技实现这一切，让你随时为未来做好准备，拥有想象中每一次冒险所需的全部装备。

Everything you want out of a vehicle, of course, but also because of their ethos, which is making the world a better place, providing what you need to make the most of life's adventures, and using technology to do it so you're prepared for whatever comes next and have everything you need for every adventure you can imagine.

好的。

Okay.

让我们回到节目，观看来自个人发展专家、畅销书作者马克·曼森的片段。

Let's get back to the show with a clip from personal development expert and bestselling author, Mark Manson.

我们是不是陷入了一种‘大师’氛围中？

We're in like this guru sphere, right?

尤其是在自助领域，那里有一些个性极其突出的人物，他们吸引了大量受众，并在广大人群中占据了显著的影响力，而这些人很可能在人生某个阶段确实需要良好的建议和指导。

Particularly in the self help world where there are outsized personalities out there who are commandeering, like very large audiences and a significant mindshare amongst a vast population of people who are probably genuinely looking for good advice and guidance at some period in their life in which they need it.

但回到YouTube和互联网所奖励的东西，它奖励的是激烈观点、反主流思维、非正统思考、确定性、信念和魅力，而这些都不一定与真相、准确性和良好建议相关。所以，像你这样的人，我知道你一直在思考：我该如何提供良好的建议，并且以诚信的方式去做？

But back to like kind of what YouTube and the internet rewards, it rewards hot takes, contrarianism, heterodox thinking, certainty, conviction, charisma, all of these things, none of which necessarily are related to truth, veracity and good advice, So you, as somebody who I know thinks about like, how do I provide good advice and do it with integrity?

你在那里并不是在竞争，但你身处一个世界，那里其他人无论好坏，他们的动力更多不是源于价值观，而是越来越被增长等指标驱动。

You're out there not competing, but you're in a world in which those other people are out there for better or worse, who are motivated not by values necessarily, but more and more by metrics like growth.

而增长意味着，他们会捧出一些人，这些人可能并不适合被平台推广，哪怕他们打着‘只是提问’之类的旗号。

And with growth, that means platforming people who might be not the best people to platform under the rubric of like just asking questions and all of that kind of thing.

比如，让我告诉你他们不想让你知道的事，你过去所听的一切都是谎言，这才是真正有效的方法，对吧？

Like, let me tell you what they don't want you to know and everything you've ever been told is a lie and this is like what works, right?

我不知道这是有意的盲目、缺乏自我认知，还是仅仅是一种‘我根本不在乎’的心态——只要我在增长，有越来越多的人关注我就行。

And I don't know if it's a willful blindness or a lack of self awareness or maybe just a, I don't give a fuck, like it doesn't matter as long as I'm growing and more and more people are paying attention to me.

是的，我对这一点有矛盾的感受，因为我觉得这对世界是有好处的。

Yeah, I have mixed feelings about this because I think it's good for the world.

其实，我先做个说明，然后再谈我的矛盾感受。

Actually, me start with a caveat, and then I'll go into my mixed feelings.

这个说明是：随着你所说的‘大师恐惧’——我很喜欢这个词——正在急剧膨胀，这同时也在发生，对吧？

So the caveat of all this is I want to say that as this is simultaneously having the guru's fear, as you put it, I really like that word, is exploding, right?

自助类内容比以往任何时候都更庞大。

Self help is bigger than it's ever been.

它已经基本主流化了。

It's become mainstream essentially.

在过去十到十五年里，出现了前所未有的、真正优质的心理健康和身体健康信息，这些信息在人类历史上从未如此丰富过。

There is an unprecedented wealth of genuinely good mental health and physical health information that's become available in the last ten, fifteen years that was never available in all of human history.

在过去十五年里，互联网上分享的优质建议可能比人类历史上其余所有时期加起来还要多。

Like there's probably been more good advice shared on the internet in the past fifteen years than the rest of human history combined.

所以这些内容与所有这些东西混杂在一起。

So that's mixed in with all this stuff.

作为消费者，要分辨好坏常常让人非常非常沮丧。

And it's often very, very frustrating to, as a consumer, to parse the good from the bad.

即使那些总体上持有荒谬观点和信念的人，偶尔也会分享一些非常棒的信息。

Even people who, by and large, have ridiculous positions and beliefs about most things will occasionally share a really good piece of information.

因此，你需要在海量信息中进行一场心理上的筛选斗争。

So it's like there's a mental struggle of sifting through all the information out there.

所以我想先把这个提出来。

So I want to put that on the table first.

然后这与我矛盾的心情相关，方式如下：归根结底，我认为让两种对立的叙事进入公共领域，让它们相互碰撞，是件好事。

And then that relates to my mixed feelings in the following way, which is ultimately, I feel like it's a good thing to let two opposing narratives into the public sphere and let them kind of combat each other.

因为很多时候，传统叙事最终都被证明是空洞的。

And because a lot of times the conventional narrative does end up being full.

我的意思是，过去二十年里，很多主流的营养信息后来被证明对人们来说简直是糟糕透顶，十年后才明白，对吧？

I mean, much nutritional information over the past twenty years, you know, that was conventional turned up to be absolutely terrible and horrible for people, you know, a decade later, right?

所以传统智慧经常会被推翻。

So it's like the conventional wisdom does get overturned frequently.

因此，你确实希望人们能自由地质疑、反驳，并提出替代性理论，即使偶尔有些想法是荒谬的，那也没关系。

And so you do want it to be free and available for people to attack and combat and offer alternative theories, and yeah, even if occasionally they're harebrained, you know, sure, whatever.

我认为这没问题。

That I think is fine.

而且我确实认为这给大众和消费者带来了许多压力和纷争。

And I do think it does cause a lot of stress and strife among the population and among consumers.

它让我们的生活变得稍微复杂了一些，因为我们必须承担更多责任，去弄清楚自己消费的是什么，以及它是否有益。

It makes our lives a little bit more complicated, as it puts more responsibility on us to figure out what we're consuming and whether it's good or not.

我担心的是，正如你所说，对‘疯狂小镇’的过度聚焦，我们姑且这么叫吧。

What I do worry about is, to your point, the over indexing of crazy town, let's call it.

作为一名全程观察网络媒体的成年人，我一直在努力追踪并理解为什么某些受众会表现出特定的行为方式。

I've kind of come to, just as somebody who's observed online media my entire adult life, and tried to like really kinda track it, and understand why certain audiences behave certain ways.

我逐渐得出结论：世界上可能最长期活跃在线的群体，就是那些沉迷于疯狂小镇阴谋论的人。

I've kinda come to the conclusion that perhaps the most chronically online population in the world are the crazy town conspiracy theory people.

他们更投入，也更爱发声。

They're more engaged, they're more vocal.

如果他们喜欢你，就会看你的所有内容、点赞所有内容、评论所有内容。

If they like you, they'll watch everything, they'll like everything, they'll comment on everything.

因此，我认为作为内容创作者，我们行业中有很多人会试探性地涉足这个‘疯狂小镇’的池子，从而获得大量互动。

And so I think as creators, I think there are lot of people in our industry who, you know, they'll dip their toe in that pool, in the crazy town pool, and they'll get that flood of engagement.

这种感觉很好。

And that feels good.

这就像，尤其是当你已经连续制作了20集，却陷入一个平台期，没什么内容真正爆火或表现良好，你会想，天啊，我们到底哪里做错了？

It's like, especially, I mean, when you've been, say grinding through 20 episodes and you're at this plateau and like nothing's really popping off or performing well, and you're like, man, what am I, what are we doing wrong?

我还能做些什么改进呢？

Like, what can I be doing better?

突然间，有一集就像火箭一样蹿红了。

And all of sudden one just like shoots off like a rocket.

你会想，天啊，我以后得多做点这种内容。

You're like, man, I should do more of that.

接下来是著名的玛丽亚·施赖弗。

Next up is the iconic Maria Shriver.

我来这里是为了做什么？

What am I here to do?

你该如何屏蔽掉这一切？

And how do you drown all of that out?

我觉得你不需要被一块两乘四的木板打中。

I don't think you need to get hit by a two by four.

我不认为你必须跌到谷底，无论是在AANA，还是其他方面，或者是否要经历离婚或被解雇。

I don't think you need necessarily to hit rock bottom, whether it's in AANA, you name it, or whether it is to get divorced or get fired from a job.

我认为，各种心碎时刻一直在不断发生。

There's all kinds of heartbreak, I think, going on all the time.

但关键在于，在这个社会中停下来，允许自己静坐，与自己对话，审视内心正在发生的一切。

But I think the key is stopping in this society, stopping and allowing yourself to sit in silence and have that conversation with yourself and report on what's going on within.

所以我认为，这对每个人都是可能的。

So I think that that's possible for everybody.

我不主张跌到谷底，也不主张最终躺在地板上，望着自己的婚姻，问自己：现在该怎么办？

I wouldn't advocate hitting rock bottom, I wouldn't advocate ending up on a floor looking at your marriage and going, now what?

但有时候，这确实是必要的。

But sometimes that's what it takes.

但我认为，今天我们到处都在以小规模的方式经历着崩溃。

But I think I think what we're seeing breakdowns in small ways all over the place today.

因此，这就是为什么我希望，无论是通过写作，还是你的朋友，你说他正在让诗歌民主化，告诉每个人他们都能写作，当人们写作时，会感受到巨大的释放。

And therefore, that's why I'm hoping that whether it's writing or your friend, you were saying that he's democratizing poetry and telling everybody that they can write, and people feel a huge release when they write.

即使他们不认为自己是作家，有些人也会用非惯用手写字，看看会冒出什么内容。

Even if they don't think of themselves as writers, some people write with their opposite hand, their nondominant hand, and see what comes out there.

我坚信，当你感到危机、陷入困境、不知前路何在时，这能帮助你找到方向。

I'm just a big believer that that can help you find your way forward when you feel in crisis, when you feel stuck, when you don't know the way forward.

是的。

Yeah.

这看起来像是放纵，但实际上是一种积极的自我关怀。

It feels indulgent, but it's actually positive self care to do that.

对于某个人来说

For somebody

写字是一种放纵吗？

indulgent to write?

我认为，停下来、暂停一下，为自己留出一段安静的时光，尤其是当你总觉得自己落后于他人、无法满足别人的期望时，

Well, I think to stop and pause and carve out quiet time for yourself, especially if you're somebody who does feel like you're always behind in terms of living up to others, people's expectations the of

去这么做。

to do it.

我知道。

I know.

当你最不想做的时候，就是该做这件事的时候。

It's like the the time to do it is when you feel the least compelled to do it.

对吧？

Right?

没错，就是这样。

Like, feels like Exactly.

那是我负担不起的奢侈。

That is a luxury that I cannot afford.

但你需要这种模式中断。

But you need that pattern interrupt.

否则，你只会继续收获你一直播种的东西。

Otherwise, you're gonna continue to just reap what you've always sown.

对吧？

Right?

但你可以从五分钟开始。

But it can be you can start with five minutes.

你可以从十分钟开始。

You can start with ten minutes.

你可以从十五分钟开始。

You can start with fifteen.

我不是说你必须彻底做到，去瓦尔登湖，或者去参加静修营，或者去隐居，像耶稣那样离开四十天。

I'm not saying you have to be thorough and go to Walden Pond, or you have to go off onto a silent retreat, or go on to a retreat, or, do what Jesus did and go away for forty days.

但如果你回顾历史，看看在社交媒体出现之前那些真正能理清思绪的人，他们都会离开一段时间，静静地独处，整理自己的想法。

But if you look at history, if you look at people who've actually been able to gather their thoughts before social media, they went away and kind of took time to be in silence to gather their thoughts.

我读到过比尔·盖茨和杰夫·贝佐斯的事迹，他们至今仍会离开一段时间，静下心来思考：我到底在想什么？

Things I've read about Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, they still go away and find time to like, what am I thinking?

我将走向何方？

Where am I going?

我的人生目标是什么？

What is my purpose?

我想要如何改变我正在做的事情？

How do I wanna change up what I'm doing?

这是一场每个人都需要与自己进行的对话。

That's a conversation that everybody needs to have with themselves.

所以，如果你在浴室、衣橱里进行这种对话，我认识一些女性，她们有两个孩子，说她们每天早起二十分钟，走进浴室，锁上门，只是试着思考：我到底在想什么？

So if you're having it in the bathroom, in your closet I've talked to some women who have, you know, two kids and they say they get up twenty minutes early and they go in the bathroom, lock the door, and just try to figure out what do I think?

我将走向何方？

Where am I going?

我想做什么？

What do I wanna do?

所以我认为，如果你要开始，我那里有一首诗：从你所在的地方开始，从你拥有的东西开始，那可能是五分钟，也可能是十分钟。

So I think if you start I have a poem there, start where you are and start with what you have, which might be five minutes, might be ten minutes.

这种做法就能引导你，开始规划你的道路。

Just it that kind of thing can lead that can begin to design your path.

我认为，当你谈论目的或意义这类话题时，比如：我的目的是什么？

I think when you talk about things like purpose or meaning, like, what is my purpose?

这对很多人来说可能令人望而生畏，甚至让人感到痛苦，比如：‘我应该因为不知道自己的人生目标而自责吗？’

That's intimidating for a lot of people, or perhaps even violent, like, oh, I should feel bad about myself because I don't know what my purpose is.

你写的这些诗实际上就是在展示，什么是向内审视，如何试图理解我们每个人内心复杂的情感。

And, you know, these poems that you've written are really just demonstrating, you know, what it means to like, look inward, you know, and try to make sense of, the complicated emotions that we all have.

而那些更宏大、更重要的理念，正是从这种实践中逐渐浮现出来的。

And those bigger grander ideas kind of emerge from that as a practice.

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，每个人的人生目标都是不同的。

I mean, I think purpose is different for everybody.

我发现很多人，尤其是年轻人，比如我孩子的朋友们，都会来找我，说：‘我在寻找我的人生目标。’

And I find so many people come up to me, young people, especially friends of my kids, and like, I'm looking for my purpose.

你的目标又不是躲在树后面等着你去发现，对吧？

It's like your purpose isn't hiding behind a tree, right?

只要你做着自己热爱的事，你的目标就是你此刻的存在。

But just kind of doing something you love, your purpose is you're here.

我非常相信这一点，而且随着我们人生的发展，它也会发生变化。

I'm a big believer in that, and we all and it changes as we move forward in life.

但这些诗歌真正探讨的是对童年的挖掘、对情感的探索、对渴望的追寻以及对爱的体悟。

But these poems are really about an excavation of one's childhood, of one's feelings, of one's longing, of one's love.

我的人生目标已经改变了。

And my purpose has changed.

我现在的目标是分享这些，分享诗歌的艺术，诗歌的民主化——这与我二十多岁时的情况已经不同，而且这种变化是可以持续演化的。

My purpose now is to share this, to share the kind of art of poetry, the democratization of poetry reflecting it's different than it was when I was in my twenties and that that can evolve.

某种程度上，我所有的作品都把我带到了这个我从未想过会到达的地方。

All my work has kind of brought me to this place in a funny way where I never thought I would be.

我认为年轻人常常觉得：我必须找到人生目标，天啊，天啊。

I think young people often feel like I need a purpose, oh my God, oh my God.

我觉得，不妨放下一些压力，没关系的。

And I think just to take some of the, it's okay.

你知道的？

You know?

你很好。

You're okay.

你做得很好。

You're doing great.

你已经足够了。

You're enough.

这位是作家兼艺术家克雷格·莫德。

This is writer and artist Craig Maude.

去硅谷可以说是我在成年生活中最重要的时刻之一。

Going out to Silicon Valley was sort of, I'd say, probably one of the most pivotal moments of my adult life.

于是我搬到了旧帕洛阿尔托，我的两个室友是斯坦福设计学院的小伙子们。

So I moved to old Palo Alto and my two roommates were these Stanford D School guys.

这些家伙简直是世界上最爱拥抱的人，每天我都被他们抱得喘不过气。

And these guys were just the freaking huggiest guys And in the every day, I'm just being smothered by these hugs.

他们总是那么积极乐观。

And they were so positive.

他们都是素食者。

They were vegetarians.

没有毒品，也没有酒精。

There was no drugs, alcohol.

他们不喝酒。

They didn't drink.

我从一个每个人都喝得烂醉、失去意识的地方过来。

And I went from this place of everyone's getting blasted, blacking out.

酒精无处不在，渗透在每一件事中。

Alcohol is part and parcel of everything.

每顿饭都是肉。

Every meal is like just meat.

日本人爱吃肉。

Japan loves meat.

到处都是牛肉。

It's just like beef everywhere.

搬到这所房子，这些家伙一直不停地拥抱我。

To moving to this house where these guys are just hugging me constantly.

这里没有肉。

There's no meat.

这里没有酒精。

There's no alcohol.

这两个人显然来自一种富足的境况。

And they come from clearly a place of abundance, these two guys.

你只需感受到，他们背后是数代爱的积淀，才孕育出了这两个人。

You just felt behind them were generations of love that had manifested these two human beings.

因此，这一切都成了我自我成长的一部分——我没有导师，没有榜样，没有年长者为我引路，我该如何赋予自己更高的自我价值感？

And so that was all just part of this how do I give myself, again, not having a mentor, not having an archetype, not having someone older to lead the way, how do I give myself a greater sense of self worth?

在这个过程中，酒精自然而然地离我而去。

And in doing that, the alcohol fell away pretty naturally.

我想，大约在我31岁的时候，我才终于能够真正地、永远地告别它。

And I'd say it was about 31 when I was finally able to really kind of say goodbye for good.

把它完全抛在脑后。

Put it completely in the rear view.

嗯。

Yeah.

你那些室友似乎在某种程度上展现了你在书中提到的东西，对我来说，读你的书时最深刻、最有影响力的一个观点就是我以前从未听说过的‘yoyu’这个概念。

Those guys that your housemates seem on some level to exhibit something that you talk about in the book, which for me, like one of the biggest, most impactful things that I took away from reading your book is this idea I'd never heard of before called yoyu.

嗯。

Yeah.

是这么发音的吗？

Is that how you say it?

是这么发音的吗？

Is that how you pronounce it?

yoyu。

Yoyu.

yoyu。

Yoyu.

Yoyu。

Yoyu.

我想多听听这个，因为我觉得这是一个非常酷且深刻的理念。

I wanna hear more about this because I think this is a really, like, cool and profound idea.

是的。

Yeah.

在日语中，yoyu用英语可以说成是同理心，但它比同理心更深。

So yoyu in in Japanese is in English, it could kind of be empathy, but it's it's deeper than empathy.

你知道吗？

You know?

就我所理解的，日语中的yoyu是指心里为他人留出空间，心里容纳他人，内心和生活中拥有充裕的空间去接纳困境，去回应困境。

And in Japanese, the way I've I've come to understand it is is having the space in your heart to accept someone else, to have space in your heart for someone else, an abundance of space in your heart and your life to be able to accept hardship, to be able to respond to hardship.

我认为，当我刚搬到那里时，从根本上感受到的就是，这些在更大层面上支持人们的体系，让街上我遇到的每一个人、每一个擦肩而过的人，都带有一丝yoyu。

And that's I think what I felt fundamentally when I moved there is that having these systems on a greater level supporting people imbued everyone I saw on the street, everyone I was passing with this a little bit of yo yo.

有些人拥有更多的yoyu，有些人则少一些，但总有一种内心空间的感觉。

And more people have more yo yo and less yo yo than others, but there is this sense of space in the heart.