威尔·布尔斯维茨博士：修复肠道，减少炎症，优化微生物组

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在我们讨论干预措施和解决方案之前，先来聊聊是什么在推动这一切。

Before we get into interventions and solutions, let's talk a little bit about what is driving this.

我们的食物环境和整体环境究竟有哪些方面导致了肠道健康恶化？

What is it about our food environment and our general environment that is contributing to poor gut health?

进而引发慢性低度炎症。

And in turn, chronic low grade inflammation.

好的。

Okay.

出于好奇，你的祖父母，一般来说，他们是哪一年出生的？

So out of curiosity, your grandparents, like generally speaking, what year were they born?

天哪。

Oh, lord.

大概是我的祖父母。

Probably my grandparents.

就做个大概估计吧。

Just like an estimate.

大概在1910年代末。

Probably in the '19, late nineteen ten's.

好的。

Okay.

对。

Yeah.

所以我的祖父母出生在第一次世界大战前后，1918年左右。

That's the my so, grandparents were born right around World War I, 1918.

明白吗？

Alright?

想想这个世界在如此短的时间内发生了多大的变化。

Think about the way in which the world has changed in such a short period of time.

电力对他们来说还是新鲜事物。

Electricity was brand new for them.

那时候没有电视。

There was no television.

没多少人有汽车。

Not many people had cars.

你得骑自行车去上学。

You had to ride your bike to school.

对吧？

Right?

你认识你的农民。

You knew your farmer.

如果你吃肉，你就认识你的屠夫。

You knew if you eat meat, you knew your butcher.

就像，你认识所有这些不同的人。

Like, you knew all these different people.

对吧？

Right?

想想我们现在所处的位置，

And, you know, now think about where we are today

是的。

Mhmm.

如今，有许多东西主导着我们的环境、我们的世界，甚至我们的选择，这些选择说实话很难应对，因为我们对某些东西上瘾了。

And the way in which there are things that dominate our environment, our world, even our choices, choices that, honestly, they're difficult because we there are things that we are addicted to.

对吧？

Right?

它们的设计方式让我们难以摆脱。

And they've been designed that way that we're struggling with.

所以，现在成年人的热量摄入中，有60%来自超加工食品。

So, our food, right now, for adults, 60% of our calories come from ultra processed foods.

当我祖父母还是孩子的时候，这些食品根本不存在。

When my grandparents were kids, those didn't exist.

而对我们的孩子来说，70%的热量摄入来自超加工食品。

For our children, 70% of their calories come from ultra processed foods.

我所能引用的最令人不安的数据之一是，你饮食中每增加10%的超加工食品，死亡风险就会增加14%。

One of the most disturbing statistics that I can cite is that for every 10% of your diet that comes from ultra processed foods, your risk of death goes up by fourteen percent.

所以，简单来说，如果你把14乘以7，就能得出我们的孩子在童年时期所接触的超加工食品比例。

So, basically, if you take 14 and you multiply it by seven in our kids, you end up with what they're being exposed to during their childhood.

而他们并不能完全掌控这种情况。

And they don't, like, have total control over this.

他们还不够成熟，无法理解自己的选择。

They're not mature enough to understand their choices.

对吧？

Right?

这就是我们的饮食现状。

That's our diet.

然后我们必须承认，还有其他许多已经发生变化的因素，比如，好吧。

And then we must acknowledge all these other elements that have changed where, you know, okay.

你每天花多少时间在户外？

So, how much time do you spend outdoors?

比如，看看今天步行上学的人口比例与过去相比如何。

Like, if you look at what percentage of people walked to school today compared to the way it used to be.

目前，普通成年人93%的时间都待在室内。

So, the average adult right now spends 93% of their time indoors.

是的。

Mhmm.

在外面的时间非常少。

Very little time outside.

但这最终意味着我们的环境是人为的、无菌的、人工照明的，而不是在自然中，被微生物环绕，受阳光节奏影响。

But that is going to ultimately mean that our surroundings are manmade, sterile, artificially lit, as opposed to in nature, surrounded by microbes, and being paced by the sun.

对吧？

Right?

此外，还有我们的设备，这里有一整个话题要谈，而社交媒体并不是唯一的问题。

So, and then, in addition to this, like, our devices, there's an entire conversation here, and social media is not the only thing.

但你知道，我其实是最后一代还记得任天堂出现之前生活是什么样的人。

But, you know, I'm actually the last generation that remembers what life was like before Nintendo.

在我的童年时期，我出生于1980年。

And in my childhood so I was born in 1980.

我今年45岁。

I'm 45.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我记得小时候在外面玩，搭堡垒，骑自行车。

I remember playing outside, building forts, riding bikes.

那真是太有趣了。

It was so fun.

然后我们买了一台任天堂。

And then we got a Nintendo.

我当时脑子里只想着一件事。

And there was only one thing on my mind.

我怎样才能得到玩它的时间？

How can I get time with that?

如果回溯过去，怀旧地讲，我真的很喜欢那个老式的任天堂。

And if we go back, I you know, nostalgically, I love it, the old Nintendo.

但如果你拿它和现在孩子们在平板或设备上玩的东西，更不用说现在的电子游戏了，那简直是天差地别。

But, like, if you compare that to what our kids get on a tablet or a device today, let alone the video games, it's like completely different.

所以，如今美国的普通成年人每天在手机上花费六到七个小时，但我们却都觉得太忙了。

So, the average adult in America right now spends six or seven hours per day on their phone, and yet we all feel too busy.

我们总觉得没时间。

We don't think that we have time.

而且，现在正爆发着一场孤独症危机。

And the there is an epidemic of loneliness.

在疫情开始之前，就有百分之五十的美国人表示自己感到孤独。

Before the pandemic started, fifty percent of Americans reported that they were feeling lonely.

事实上，如果你查看关于孤独的数据，我们却很少谈论这个话题。

And actually, if you look at the data around loneliness, we don't talk about this often enough.

我知道你节目里请过一些人讨论过这个问题，但在全国范围内，我们还没有充分展开关于孤独意味着什么、它会造成什么影响的对话。

I know that you've had people on your show that have talked about this, but, like, nationally, there hasn't been an adequate conversation about what that means and what that impact is.

孤独的影响，因为我们是如此社会化的生物，其对健康的影响与吸烟相当。

The impact of loneliness, because we are such social creatures, is on par with smoking cigarettes in terms of how it impacts our health.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我曾在节目中与前任卫生局局长谈过这个话题。

I mean, this is a conversation I had with the surgeon general, the former surgeon general on the show.

维韦克？

Vivek?

对，维韦克，这确实是个问题，他也尽力推动了这场对话。

Yeah, Vivek, it's certainly a thing and he did what he could to initiate this conversation.

他把这定为自己的重点，是的。

He made that his focus, yeah.

但这场对话确实需要进一步深化和持续下去。

Yeah, but this conversation needs to mature and continue for sure.

我喜欢你采取这种整体性的、身心兼顾的方法，而不是仅仅作为一个纯粹的科学家，一味深入生物机制。因为关于现代人如何生活、这种生活方式如何导致如今如此多人健康状况不佳，还有一场更广泛的对话需要展开。

I like how you are adopting a very holistic and mind body kind of approach to this and not just being the hardcore hard scientist and drilling down into biological mechanisms here, because there is a broader conversation around how we live our lives in the modern world and how that's contributing to the poor health of so many people right now.

如果我们不解决所有这些问题，就无法解决这个难题。

We can't solve this problem unless we address all of those things.

但如果我们逐个来看，比如先从超加工食品开始。

But taking them individually, like let's start with ultra processed foods.

超加工食品究竟是什么导致了肠道菌群失调？

Like what is it about ultra processed foods that's leading to gut dysbiosis?

是某种特定成分吗？

Like, is it a specific ingredient?

是营养缺乏吗？

Is it a lack of nutrients?

这些高糖、高盐、高脂肪的预包装食品中，究竟是什么机制导致了你所观察到的结果？

Like what is the mechanism in these prepackaged, products that are high in sugar, salt and fat, that are producing the result that you're seeing.

没错。

Right.

首先，它们有多不自然？

So, first of all, how unnatural are they?

我的意思是，我们竟然能对如此荒谬的事情习以为常，有些东西放在货架上两年不变，你买回家，却完全不会引起警觉，因为我们已经太过习以为常了。

I mean, it's really wild what we have the capacity to normalize, where something could sit on the shelf and be unchanged for two years and you purchase it, and that doesn't set off alarm signals for us because we've normalized it so much.

在我们讨论其中的化学物质和相关数据之前，我们先从这三种基本营养素说起，食品科学家在制造超加工食品时，基本上就是把这三者混在一起。

Before we even get into the chemicals and some of the data that we see there, let's just start with these three basic nutrients that are basically smooshed together as food scientists create ultra processed foods.

正如你提到的，那就是糖、脂肪和盐。

And those are, as you mentioned, sugar, fat, and salt.

而这三种物质中的每一种，单独来看，你都能深入分析它们对肠道菌群的影响。

And each one of these on an individual basis, you can drill down and see what the impact is on the microbiome.

以糖为例。

So take sugar for example.

美国人平均每年摄入的糖超过150磅。

The average person in America consumes over a 150 pounds of sugar on a yearly basis.

我说的糖，不是指吃浆果那种糖。

And when I say sugar, I'm not talking about eating berries.

我根本不是在说任何天然食物。

I'm not talking about whole food in any way.

我说的是，你只有通过某种方式才能接触到这种糖，那就是有人将精制糖碳水化合物提取出来，然后在制造这些超加工食品时重新添加进去。

I'm talking about the only way that you get access to this is that someone has managed to extract a refined sugar carbohydrate and then reinsert it as they're building these ultra processed foods.

因此，糖，我们非常清楚，是一种肠道屏障破坏者。

And so, and sugar, we know with total clarity, is a gut barrier disruptor.

这种作用机制有几种不同的方式。

And there's a couple of different ways that this seems to work.

其中一部分是它对微生物本身的影响，促使这些微生物走向菌群失调。

Part of it is the impact that it has on the microbes themselves, guiding those microbes towards dysbiosis.

但还涉及你的血糖反应。

But there's also your actual blood sugar response.

我不是说，在健康餐后血糖升高就有问题。

So when your blood sugar is it's not to say that when your blood sugar goes up after a healthy meal that that's problematic.

这并不是我的意思。

That is not what I'm saying.

但对于听众来说，想象一下，你吃了一块甜点，或者早餐吃了可颂面包之类的东西。

But for the listeners, imagine for a moment that you have that sugary dessert or that breakfast that's like, you know, a croissant, something like this.

你当时感觉很棒，但接下来的几个小时里，难道不觉得有点糟糕吗？

You feel great in the moment, and then don't you feel kinda terrible within the next couple of hours?

当然。

Sure.

每次都这样。

100% of the time.

是的。

Yeah.

但这并不仅仅是你的血糖在起作用。

And that's not exclusively what your blood sugar is doing.

这是你的血糖对其他系统造成的影响。

That is the impact of what your blood sugar is doing on other systems.

因为当你从这些精制碳水化合物中摄入大量糖分，血糖急剧升高时，最终会破坏肠道屏障。

Because when your blood sugar spikes so hard from those refined carbohydrates, you ultimately are disrupting the gut barrier.

盐。

Salt.

我们国家现在有一种趋势，那就是对电解质饮料的痴迷。

We have a trend in this country of, like, an obsession with electrolyte drinks.

然而，每日推荐的盐摄入量是2300毫克。

Yet, the recommended amount of salt on a daily basis is 2,300.

而我们实际平均摄入的量——主要是由超加工食品驱动的——70%的盐都来自超加工食品。

The amount that we're actually consuming on average, by the way, driven by ultra processed foods, so 70% of our salt comes from ultra processed foods.

我们实际每天摄入的量是3600毫克。

The amount that we're actually consuming is three thousand six hundred milligrams per day.

所以，从盐的摄入来看，我们已经超过了推荐量的50%。

So, we already are 50% above where we should be from a salt perspective.

如果你再喝一瓶电解质饮料，它提供了一克钠——抱歉，是一克钠——那你每天的钠摄入量就会翻倍。

And then if you take an electrolyte drink that provides you with a gram of salt I'm sorry, a gram of sodium, you actually get yourself up to where you are double the amount of sodium that you should be consuming on a daily basis.

钠的影响是什么？

What's the impact of sodium?

有一项有趣的研究，研究人员先在动物模型和肠道菌群中进行了观察，发现你体内的乳酸菌——这些有益菌——正在减少。

There is an interesting study where they took a look first at the animal model and the microbiome, and what they found is you were depleting the lactobacillus, which are beneficial bacteria.

我们的许多益生菌都是乳酸菌，而它们的数量被减少了90%。

Many of our probiotics are lactobacillus, depleting them by 90%.

90%。

9090%.

接着是被称为Th17的免疫细胞的出现。

And then the emergence of an immune cell called Th17.

这种Th17免疫细胞与自身免疫疾病有关。

And this Th17 immune cell has been associated with autoimmune disease.

他们在人类身上做了一项小型试点研究，让受试者大幅增加盐的摄入量，结果发现，在小鼠模型中观察到的那些菌种在人体中也消失了。

And they tested this out in humans in a pilot study, small group, and they had them crank up their salt intake, and they watched as those same species that were shown in the mouse model, they became nonexistent.

因此，这里有一个很有说服力的论点。

So there's a compelling argument there.

最后是脂肪。

And the last is fat.

正如你从阅读我的书里了解到的，我不认为脂肪应该被一概妖魔化。

Now, as you know from checking out my book, I don't think fat should be categorically vilified.

事实上，我认为没有任何一种宏量营养素应该被一概而论地妖魔化。

In fact, I don't think any macronutrient should be categorically vilified.

比如，我不赞成人们说碳水化合物是坏的。

Like, I object to people saying carbs are bad.

但确实存在不健康的脂肪，就像存在不健康的碳水化合物一样。

But there is bad fat, just like there's bad carbs.

在我看来，我们真正的问题在于饱和脂肪的摄入量。

And to me, the problem that we have is actually with our saturated fat intake.

我并不是主张我们的饮食中要完全杜绝饱和脂肪。

It's not to say that I would advocate for zero saturated fat in our diet.

我只是在呼吁平衡。

I'm asking for balance.

而我们现在并没有这种平衡。

And we don't have that right now.

在美国，普通人如果把每年摄入的饱和脂肪单独拿出来，压成一块，这块脂肪的重量将达到23磅。

The average person in The United States, if you were to take saturated fat, just the fat, and turn it into a block, that block on a yearly basis would weigh 23 pounds.

对吧？

Right?

这是一笔相当可观的脂肪摄入量。

That's a pretty substantial amount of fat.

我所主张的是，我们不希望摄入更多的这种脂肪。

That's the type that I'm arguing we don't want more of that.

我们希望减少它。

We want less.

我知道，互联网上对这个话题有很多争论，但科学界并没有分歧。

Now, I get that, like, the Internet has a debate on this topic, but the scientific community does not.

互联网是一个让人在三年内从‘你应该吃素’摇摆到‘你应该吃肉’的地方。

So, the Internet is a place where we can be whiplashed from you should be vegan to you should be carnivore within three years.

与我们上次录制时相比，今天的科学并没有发生根本性变化，只是增加了更多数据。

Science today hasn't radically changed relative to where we were the last time you and I recorded other than we've added more.

因此，让人们明白，对我来说，这三种营养素才是问题所在，这一点很重要。

So, it's important for people to understand that these, to me, these three nutrients, these are an issue.

如果你把它们结合起来，就会形成一种我们称之为西方饮食的模式。

And if you combine them, you end up with a pattern which we call the Western diet.

而关于西方饮食，我做了一项分析，想弄清楚：有多少疾病被发现与这种饮食模式有关？

And the Western diet, I performed an analysis to understand, okay, so how many studies has the Western diet been associated with in terms of disease?

对吧？

Right?

也就是说，有多少种疾病的研究认为，这种饮食至少是促成因素之一？

Like, many diseases can I find where they believe that this is at least contributing to it?

我找到了55种。

I found 55.

所以我有一份130种疾病的清单，其中至少有55种与此相关。

So, I have my list of a 130, at least 55 of them.

是的。

Mhmm.

数据是存在的。

The data are there.

其他的那些，我认为我们还没有进行研究。

The other the rest of them, I don't think we've done the study yet.

这令人担忧。

So this is concerning.

我简单评论一下，我觉得这和你节目中的凯文·霍尔很有关系。

Quick little comment, and this is, I think, quite relevant to, like, you have Kevin Hall on your podcast.

所以，有一个概念叫作超高适口性。

So, there's this concept of hyperpalatability.

对吧？

Right?

超高适口性基本上意味着食物是专门设计来让你吃超量的，你的饱腹激素，比如GLP-1——也就是被用来制成Ozempic和Wegovy这类药物的激素——无法被有效激活，因此你总是感到饥饿，不断想吃更多。

And hyperpalatability basically means that it's designed for you to overeat, that your satiety hormones, like GLP-one, which is what's been, you know, transformed into a medication with Ozempic and Wegovy, that lack the ability to activate those hormones, and so then you just keep starving and cease for more.

是的。

Mhmm.

基本上，他们已经确立了超高适口性的定义，要求满足三个条件中的任意两个。

And, basically, what they've shown is that the concept of hyperpalability, it's actually been established as a definition now where it requires two out of three.

所以如果你把糖和盐、糖和脂肪、脂肪和盐组合在一起，只要满足其中两项，就能做出一种高适口性的食物。

So if you combine sugar with salt, sugar with fat, fat with salt, if you combine these things, you get two out of three, you're gonna make a hyperpalatable food.

高适口性的问题在于，你根本停不下来，会超越身体发出的饱腹信号，继续吃个不停。

And the problem with hyperpalatability is that you basically can't stop eating it and you outpace the signal that tells you you're full and you should stop eating.

所以问题不一定是食物本身，而是你与食物互动的方式——这意味着你摄入了过多的食物。

So it's not even necessarily the food itself, it's the the way in which you're interfacing with the food, which is meaning you're you're eating too much of it.

因为完整食物和把同样的完整食物磨成粉、再做成肉丸，是完全不同的。

Well, because a whole food is not the same as taking that exact same whole food and grinding it into a powder and then turning it into a meatball.

对吧？

Right?

也就是说，这两者根本不是一回事。

Like, that's not those aren't the same thing.

食物的结构实际上非常重要。

The the structure of the food actually matters a lot.

食物的基质。

The matrix.

所以是食物的结构。

So the food matrix.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

没错。

That's right.

在凯文·霍尔进行的研究中，他令人信服地表明，你可以给人们提供本质上相同的饮食，但一种是超加工食品，另一种是天然食品。

And so and in in Kevin Hall's study that he did, he convincingly showed that you could give people effectively the same diet, but one is ultra processed and one is whole food.

而食用超加工食品的人每天会多摄入500卡路里，这相当于每周增加一磅体重。

And the people on the ultra processed diet are gonna consume 500 calories more per day, and that's a pound a week.

是的。

Yeah.

而在低加工饮食中，人们吃饱了就会停止进食。

And the minimally processed diet, they they stop eating when they're full.

他们不会吃得过多。

They don't they don't overeat.

因为这要求你真正地咀嚼。

Well, because it requires you to actually chew.

所以

So

好的。

Alright.

所以我们有西方饮食。

So we have the Western diet.

我们还有导致菌群失调并进而引发慢性炎症的食物环境。

We have the food environment that's contributing to dysbiosis and in turn chronic inflammation.

而且，里奇，在我们继续之前

And, Rich, before we

我们先快速说一下，是的。

move on real quick Yeah.

还得提到那些化学物质。

Have to also mention the chemicals.

对吧？

Right?

因为我们一直谈论的都是糖、脂肪和盐。

Because all we've talked about is sugar, fat, and salt.

但这并不是全部的故事。

That's not the only story here.

我们的食品系统中有着上万种添加剂。

We have 10,000 additives in our food system.

其中几乎全部都是通过一个名为“一般认为安全”的漏洞获批的。

And almost all of them were approved through a loophole called generally recognized as safe.

它们是通过草率的漏洞进入的。

And they're entered The grass loophole.

草率的漏洞。

The grass loophole.

这也是凯文·霍尔工作的一部分，他在研究这个问题。

Which is part of that's part of Kevin Hall's work as well, is addressing that.

是的

Yeah.

而我们今天所面对的许多问题，都是二战结束后不久——也就是二战结束后的十五年内——所做决策的后果。

And this is, this is like a lot in the world that we're dealing with today are the ramifications of choices that were made immediately post World War II, like within fifteen years of World War II.

所以，他们从二战回来后说，好吧，我们需要某种方式来监管食品。

And so basically they came back from World War II and they said, okay, we need, like, some sort of way to regulate food.

我们知道醋是安全的。

We know that vinegar is safe.

我们知道盐是安全的。

We know that salt is safe.

对吧？

Right?

我们不需要对这些物质进行人体临床试验。

We don't need to test those things in a human clinical trial.

所以我们就直接说它们是普遍认为安全的。

So let's just say they're generally recognized as safe.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

但这个漏洞已经被利用，导致现在出现了多达一万个添加剂。

So but that loophole's been exploited to the tune of 10,000 different additives now.

问题是，我们没有对这上万个添加剂进行过人类实际食用后健康影响的测试。

And the problem is that we don't have testing on those 10,000 additives of humans actually consuming the food and seeing what happens to their health.

其中百分之八十没有任何类型的喂养研究。

Eighty percent have no feeding study of any variety.

而且我们肯定也没有长期数据。

And what we also don't have, for sure, is long term data.

那么，如果你从小吃这种食物，并且一生都在食用，会发生什么？

So, what happens if you're raised on this food as a kid and you eat it throughout the entire course of your lifetime?

我们不知道。

We don't know.

但就在前几天，有一项研究刚刚发布，研究了数千种存在于日常消费品中的化学物质的影响。

But there's a study that literally came out in the last few days where they took a look at the impact of over a thousand chemicals that are found in, like, consumer goods.

其中一部分是食品相关的，另一部分比如我们有一个杯子，你会从这个杯子里喝水，然后观察会发生什么，对吧？

And part of these are food based, and part of these are, like, for example, like we have a cup, and you're gonna drink from that cup and see what happens, right?

他们测试了超过一千种化学物质。

They tested over a thousand chemicals.

他们发现其中168种对肠道微生物群有显著影响。

They found that 168 of them had a significant impact on the gut microbiome.

这种影响在最终造成的后果方面令人不安。

And the impact was disturbing in terms of the effect that it was ultimately having.

肠道微生物群检测完全不在我们监管机构的职责范围内。

Gut microbiome testing is not a part of what our regulatory bodies do in any way.

这上万种添加剂中，如果有过肠道微生物群研究，那也不是因为法规要求做的。

These 10,000 additives, if there's a gut microbiome study that's been done, it wasn't done because they were required to do it.

大多数时候，食品行业根本不想知道这些。

And most of the time, the food industry, they would not wanna know.

在更广泛的消费品市场上，情况甚至更糟，

It's even worse with the broader consumer product market,

比如化妆品之类的东西。

like with cosmetics and things like that.

我之前请过格雷格·伦弗鲁来过几次，这方面完全是无监管的。

I've had Greg Renfrew on here a couple of times and it's absolutely unregulated in that regard.

这些产品中添加的任何化学物质都被视为安全，直到被证明有害为止。

And any chemicals added to these products are considered safe until proven otherwise.

但没人去证明它们有害，因为没有资金对这些物质进行有意义的人体测试。

But nobody proves them otherwise because there's no money to test these things on humans in any meaningful way.

没有资金。

There's no money.

除非政府强制要求，否则行业不会主动出资，而政府也没有提供资金。

The industry is not gonna pony up unless you require them to, the government's not funding it.

我们正在对人类进行一场大规模的、一代又一代的实验。

We're So just running this massive generation after generation experiment on the human animal.

是的，我们确实在这么做，但却没有真正监测结果

Well, we are, but without actually monitoring what

这甚至算不上实验，因为根本没人关注正在发生什么。

It's not even it an experiment because nobody's paying attention to what's happening.

我们只是任由事情自然发展。

We're just letting whatever happens, happens.

而代价就是你的健康以及你孩子的健康。

And the what the compromise is your health and the health of your children.

有没有任何努力试图改变这种状况？

Is there any effort whatsoever to change this?

有没有像你这样的人在国会作证，或者呼吁某种合理的监管？

Is there you know, people like yourself testifying on the Hill or trying to or calling for some kind of rational regulation?

你节目中请过一些比我更合适评论这件事的人。

Well, you've had people on your show who are more qualified than me to to comment on that specifically.

让我这么说吧，我基本上已经不再关注监管机构在做什么了，因为无论他们许下什么承诺，我都看不到实际成效。

Let me let me just say that I've kinda stopped paying attention for the most part to what our regulators are doing because regardless of what their promises are, I'm not seeing much.

是的。

Mhmm.

这非常令人失望，因为曾经大谈特谈变革和我们要做的事情，而一些参与其中的人长期以来一直倡导一些我认同的主张。

So it's highly disappointing because there was a big talk about change and what we were gonna do, and certain people who are involved have a platform of things they've talked about for a long time that I agree with.

但似乎有什么东西在阻碍他们真正把事情做成，不管那是什么，我也不清楚那到底是什么。

And yet it seems that whatever it is that's in there that's stopping them, blocking them from actually getting things done, whatever that may be, and I don't know what that is.

我知道。

I know

我知道那是什么。

what it is.

我的意思是，你想让我把话说出来吗？

I mean, it do you want me to say it out loud?

也许原因只有一个词，对吧？

Maybe it extends Could be one word, right?

可能就只有一个词。

It could be one.

虽然这不在本播客的讨论范围内，但本质上，人们说的是什么，和当权者的议程——也就是放松监管——是两回事。

Be on the parameters of this podcast, but essentially there's what gets said, and then there's the agenda of the powers that be, which is essentially deregulation.

比如，为大企业扫清障碍，让它们为所欲为。

Like let's clear the path for corporations to do whatever they want.

所以我们只能聊聊食品添加剂、食用色素之类的废话。

So we can talk about food additives and food colorings, blah, blah, blah.

但真正发生的是，政府在讨好大企业，以换取它们继续资助政治竞选。

But what's actually happening is basically curing favor with big corporations so that they continue to fund political campaigns.

而且我认为，这是一个普遍性的问题。

Well, and I and I think I think it's it's a it's a universal problem.

是的。

Yeah.

这并不是一个

It's not it's not one

对。

Yeah.

我不是说这仅仅局限于这一届政府。

It's I'm not saying it's it's, you know, specific to this administration.

不。

No.

但我本来希望，我曾抱有希望。

But I was hoping for I was hope I was hopeful.

我明白。

I get

啊。

it.

我曾希望那里会有什么实质内容，因为当时有很多讨论，而且和我们以往听到的不一样。

I was hopeful that there was gonna be something there because there was a big talk and it was different than what we've

听到了很多这方面的声音。

heard in the A lot of energy around that.

是的。

Yeah.

但实际行动却不多。

But not so much action.

所以，不管怎样，从我的角度来看，事情是这样的。

So well, anyway, the here's here's the thing from my perspective.

我对这件事的看法是，如果你指望政府来解决你的问题，那我们就出问题了。

The way that I feel about this is that if you're waiting for your government to fix your problems, we have a problem.

对吧？

Right?

归根结底，我们需要对自己的生活负责。

Like, ultimately, we need to take agency over our own lives.

我在这里的目的，其实就是帮你找到你需要的信息，把它变成一个你乐意读的故事，然后给你提供切实可行的工具，摆在你面前，让你自己决定生活中哪些事情是你真正想做的，能带来改变的。

And I'm here to basically, like, find the information that you need, turn it into a story that you enjoy reading, and then give you the actionable tools, put them on the table, let you decide what are the things that you ultimately wanna do in your life that can make a difference.

但我们必须重塑自己的环境，而这一切要从你自己的家开始。

But we have to reshape our own environment, and it starts in your own home.

这就是我的看法。

That's the way I feel about it.

外面发生什么，谁在乎呢？

Who cares what's going on out there?

同意。

Agree.

我想说，然后我们可以继续。

I I would say, and then we can move on.

而且这不一定是反对，因为我觉得你会同意这一点。

And it's not necessarily even pushing back because I think you would agree with this.

这其实也是凯文·霍尔的观点。

And this is essentially what Kevin Hall says as well.

我们需要做出更好的选择，我们确实拥有自主权，以下是如何做出更好选择以及如何思考这个问题的方法。

It's like, we need to make these better choices and we do have agency and here's how to make those better choices and how to think about that.

但从根本上说，我们所处的环境是在与我们作对，对吧？

But fundamentally, we're in an environment that is pushing out, that is an antagonist, right?

除非我们能系统性地改变我们的饮食环境和更广泛的环境，否则我们总是会逆流而行，对抗那些损害我们健康的力量。

And unless we have systemic change to shift our food environment and our broader environment, we're kind of stuck always swimming upstream against these forces that are working against our health.

我同意这种观点，但如果真有改变，今天也肯定还没发生。

I agree with the sentiment, but if it ever does happen, it certainly isn't happening today.

不。

No.

不是的。

It's not.

所以让我们关注我们可以做的事情。

So let's focus on what we can do.

这正是我想说的。

That's what I'm saying.

我懂你的意思。

It's like I got you.

你可以从今天开始。

You you can start today.

是的。

Yeah.

你可以做出选择，但问题在于，我看到的是，如果你允许——我并不完美。

And you can make choices, and you and the the problem is, this this is what I see is that if you allow I'm not perfect.

我吃超加工食品吗？

Do I eat ultra processed food?

当然吃。

Of course I do.

对吧？

Right?

我会不会犯错，或者总是完美地遵循自己的建议？

Do I make mistakes and or or always perfectly follow my own advice?

当然不会。

Of course I do not.

但关键是，你有能力塑造自己的环境，让它变得健康，从而提升你、让你变得更好，而不是拖你的后腿。

But the point is that you have the ability to shape your own environment and make it a healthful one that will lift you up and make you better as opposed to something that's holding you back.

但如果你接受文化规范，你就麻烦了。

But if you accept cultural norms, you're in trouble.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

那么你就是在挥舞投降的旗帜，干脆放弃了斗争。

Then you're waving the flag of surrender and just, you know, giving up the fight.

我们可以做的有很多。

And there are so many things that we can do.

你正毫无目的地随波逐流，被一股潮流带向你并不想去的地方。

You're aimlessly drifting in a current that's taking you to a place that you don't wanna go.

那我们先从这些干预措施和我们可以做的事情开始吧。

So let's start with these interventions and these things that we can do.

我的意思是，从最核心的层面来看，你认为最重要的是什么？就优先级而言，你希望那些想理解你的观点、更好掌控肠道健康的人首先明白什么？

I mean, top line, like how do you see the most, like in terms of like a hierarchy of importance, like what is the first thing you want people to understand who are trying to understand what you're saying and take better control of their gut health?

对于这个问题，我们可以从很多方向展开。

There's many directions that we could go with that question.

所以我在书的开头写了一篇作者注。

So I wrote a author's note in the front of the book.

我对读者说的是，作为一名作者，我面临的一个难题是只能写一本书。

And what I said to the reader is that one of the things I struggle with as an author is that I have to write just one book.

我无法为你们每个人量身定制内容。

And I can't personalize it to you.

但即便如此，你们在阅读这本书时，会拥有属于自己的个人体验。

But that being said, you're gonna have a personal experience when you read the book.

书里一定会有某个时刻是属于你的。

And there should be something in there that's your moment.

所以，你对这本书的体验方式，可能和别人不同。

So, the way that you experience it may be the way that someone else It may be different from the way that someone else experiences it.

因此，我希望你能找到对你来说最重要的那一点。

So, I want you to find that thing that is your most important thing.

对于经历过创伤的人来说，那件事对他们而言就是最重要的。

So, for the person who's been subjected to trauma, that's the most important thing for them.

但这并不适用于所有人。

But that's not everyone.

所以，你问我这个问题，我该从哪里开始呢？

So, with the question that you're asking me, where would I begin?

针对谁？

For whom?

是的，我理解它的个性化之处。

Yeah, I understand the personalization of it.

但从公共卫生的角度来看，如果我们只看统计数据，我们在饮食方面有着巨大的机会。

From a public health perspective, though, if we just look at the statistics, we have a tremendous opportunity in terms of our diet.

我在书中所关注的这些内容已被证明能够改善你的肠道微生物组健康，增强肠道屏障并使其更强大，同时减少炎症。

And the things that I focus on within the book have been proven to improve your gut microbiome health, to improve your gut barrier and make it strong, and to reduce inflammation.

而且，我不会选择那些你已经摄取足够的东西。

And each of the things, I'm not going to choose things that you're already getting enough of.

那样做毫无意义。

That makes no sense.

不幸的是，这正是当今营养对话中大多数关注的焦点。

Unfortunately, that's what most of the focus ends up being in nutritional conversations today.

我们关注的重点应该是那些我们摄入不足的东西，因为这才是机会所在。

Where our focus should be is on the things that we're not getting enough of because that's where the opportunity is.

如果你摄入不足，我们不仅要让你达到充足水平，更进一步，何不追求优化呢？

If you're if you're insufficient and we bring you to a place of not only sufficient, but how about optimization?

如果我们能帮你达到这个状态，就能通过饮食彻底改变你的健康状况。

If we can take you to that place, we can radically transform your health through what you eat.

那我们从哪里开始呢？

So where do we begin with this?

如果我们考虑的不是该停止什么，而是该增加什么——我这里说的是营养和饮食。

If we're thinking about not necessarily what to stop doing, but what to build in, and I'm talking about nutrition and diet here.

你是不是说纤维素是我们所有人都应该更多摄入的首要东西？还是你有其他具体建议？

Are you talking about fiber as being the number one thing that we could all do better getting more of, or what are you saying specifically?

让我先做个背景说明，当我思考该向这些人说什么关于抗炎饮食的内容时。

So, let me just to contextualize, as I contemplated, hey, what am I gonna say to these people about an anti inflammatory diet?

我对自己说，其实我们作为原始人吃什么并不重要，因为原始人没有汽车、智能手机、空调，也没有堆满各种食物的超市。

I thought to myself, you know, it doesn't really matter what we ate as as cave people Because the caveman didn't have a car or a smartphone or air conditioning or a supermarket filled with all kinds of food.

我们必须审视现代世界，提出一个问题：究竟谁真正过得很好？

We have to look at the modern world and ask the question, who's actually thriving?

比如，在二十一世纪，拥有这些现代生活方式的人中，谁真正表现优异？

Like, who's actually doing well in the twenty first century with our modern constructs?

于是我展开了一项全球性的探索，顺便提一下，我要向丹·布特纳致敬，因为这听起来有点像蓝色地带的研究。

And so, I went on a global mission, which, by the way, a shout out to Dan Buettner because it starts to sound like a Blue Zones thing.

但我要向他致敬，因为实际上，很多这类信息都是通过全球走访、观察谁在当下真正 thriving 得到的。

And But tip of the cap because, like, that's where you find a lot of this information, actually, is you go and you look out across the globe and you say, Who's out there thriving right now?

当我深入研究后，我发现了一些不同的饮食模式。

And when I came to what I identified were multiple dietary patterns.

我识别出了地中海饮食、传统日本饮食、弹性素食饮食、素食饮食、纯素食饮食和鱼素饮食。

I identified a Mediterranean diet, a traditional Japanese diet, a flexitarian diet, a vegetarian diet, a vegan diet, a pescatarian diet.

这些饮食模式在预防疾病、减少疾病和抗炎方面都有其优势。

All of them have merits in terms of preventing disease, reducing disease, and being anti inflammatory.

它们都有其优势，并且有大量研究支持。

All of them have merits and studies to back them up.

所以，这不是一刀切，真正重要的是具体的营养成分。

So, it's not one size fits all, and it's actually not the label that matters.

是具体的营养素。

It's the specific nutrients.

你会发现，我们主要缺乏四类营养素。

And what you discover are four specific categories of nutrients that we're mostly missing.

如果我们能解决这些问题，那就是我们最大的机会。

And we if we could address if we could address them, those are our greatest opportunities.

当然，纤维必须包括在内，因为正如我自2016年以来一直强调的，95%的美国人纤维摄入不足。

So, of course, fiber has to be in there because fiber, you know, as my entire platform has been laying out since 2016, ninety five percent of America is deficient in fiber.

我们的孩子，97%的孩子都缺乏纤维。

Our children, ninety seven percent of our children are deficient in fiber.

纤维毫无疑问是关乎长寿的营养素。

And fiber is, without a doubt, the longevity nutrient.

对吧？

Right?

我们需要蛋白质来维持肌肉。

We need protein for muscle.

你需要纤维来延长寿命。

You need fiber for longevity.

因为纤维与这些微生物有着极其紧密的联系，并影响我们的免疫系统、炎症、新陈代谢、荷尔蒙、情绪和大脑健康。

Because fiber is so powerfully connected to these microbes and all of the downstream effects that impact our immune system inflammation, but also our metabolism, our hormones, our mood, our brain health.

所以，对我而言，纤维是首要的突破口。

So, fiber to me is the first opportunity.

这是因为我们可以获得短链脂肪酸。

And that's because we can get short chain fatty acids.

人们饮食中纤维摄入不足的原因是西方饮食本身就缺乏纤维。

And the reason people aren't getting enough fiber in their diet is because the Western diet is fiber deficient.

是超加工食品的问题吗？

Is it the ultra processed foods?

还是说有哪些我们可以在饮食中补充的成分，即使你一直以来都遵循西方饮食模式？

Or what are the pieces that are missing that we can build into our diet, even if you're, you know, you've been on a Western diet for as long as you can think?

那具体要怎么开始增加纤维摄入呢？

Like, what's the process of starting to bring more fiber in?

你会推荐哪些食物？

What are the foods that you would recommend?

其实很简单。

It's so simple.

我们只需要真正去行动。

We just have to actually do it.

所以，首先回答你的问题，超加工食品几乎不含纤维。

So first, to address your question, ultra processed foods are have been devoid of fiber.

对吧？

Right?

即使它们添加了纤维，也往往是对我所说的整个概念的扭曲——你会先做出高糖、高脂肪、高盐的食物，然后想，嗯，要不我加点纤维？

And when they do include fiber, it tends to be a what I would describe as a perversion of the entire concept because you're gonna, like, create your sugar, fat, and salt laden food, and then you decide, well, you know what?

我可以贴个标签写上‘纤维’，嗯。

I could get a label that says fiber Mhmm.

如果我在里面撒上五克菊粉，那就是一个很好的纤维来源，这是一种单纤维。

Great source of fiber if I sprinkle five grams of Inulin in there, and that's a monofiber.

这是一种被人工提取出来的特定类型。

It's like one specific type that's been extracted artificially.

它非常便宜，也很容易获取，但令人惊讶的是，有些产品竟然只是把菊粉加进苏打水里，或者别的什么东西，进行健康伪装。

It's so cheap, so easy, and it's wild how popular are some of these products that are, like, literally just throwing inulin into soda, right, or whatever it may be, health washing.

人们只是相信自己已经满足了纤维需求。

And people just believe that they're meeting their fiber needs.

对。

Right.

我知道我需要纤维。

Hey, I know I need fiber.

医生。

Doctor.

B医生说我需要纤维，所以我就会喝这种声称能解决我纤维缺乏问题的苏打水。

B says I need fiber, and therefore I'm gonna drink this soda that says that it's going to fix my microfiber.

强化过的。

Fortified.

是的。

Yeah.

我坚决反对这种做法。

And I'm absolutely against it.

所以我们真正需要的东西其实很简单。

So what we need is so simple.

就是食物。

It's food.

是完整的天然食物。

It's whole food.

对吧？

Right?

是长在土壤里的食物。

It's food that's grown in soil.

水果、蔬菜、全谷物、种子、坚果、豆类、蘑菇。

Fruits, vegetables, whole grains, seeds, nuts, legumes, mushrooms.

就是这样。

That's it.

它们都含有膳食纤维。

All of them contain fiber.

膳食纤维是植物性食物独有的。

Fiber is exclusive to plant based food.

而纤维本质上是一种益生元，也就是说，这是微生物群为了以健康的方式繁殖所需要和渴望摄取的食物吗？

And fiber is essentially a prebiotic, meaning that this is what the microbiome needs and wants to feed on to propagate in a healthy way?

纤维有不同的类型。

There's different types of fiber.

我们还不清楚到底有多少种。

We don't have an estimate of how many types there are.

可能有数十亿种。

There could be billions of them.

这太复杂了。

It's so complex.

如果你看一下纤维的结构，都会让我流泪。

If you were to look at a fiber structure, it makes my eyes water.

这到底是怎么回事？

It's like, what the heck is going on here?

我大学时主修化学。

And I was a chemistry major in college.

但它们具有不同的特性。

But they have different characteristics.

并不是所有的纤维都是益生元。

Not all of them are prebiotic.

有些类型只是粗纤维。

Some types are just roughage.

它们只是在你的肠道中穿行而过。

They just move their way through your intestines.

它们从另一端排出，你会有很好的排便。

And they come out the other end, and you have a great bowel movement.

这确实有其价值，但它并不会影响你的微生物组。

And there's definitely value there, but it's not impacting your microbiome.

但益生元纤维是微生物的养料，原因在于你体内没有分解它的酶。

So but prebiotic fiber is fuel for your microbes, and the reason why is because you don't have the enzymes to break it down.

所以，它从你的喉咙经过胃部，穿过长达十五英尺的小肠，进入结肠，成为这些微生物的食物。

So, it goes from your throat through your stomach, through your small intestine, which is 15 feet long, and it enters into your colon, and that becomes the food for these microbes.

因此，被它们消耗的那些有益菌会变得更强大。

And so, the ones they eat, which are the good ones, they become stronger.

然后它们更能产生短链脂肪酸，因为这正是这种关系的结果。

And then they become more capable of producing short chain fatty acids because that's what comes of that relationship.

微生物与纤维接触。

The microbes come into contact with fiber.

这就是你的环境的交汇点。

This is the intersection of your environment Mhmm.

你和你体内的这个生态系统共同作用，产生出短链脂肪酸，而你的免疫细胞和肠道屏障正极度缺乏这些物质。

And you and this ecosystem inside of you, and and it's producing the short chain fatty acids that your immune cells, that your gut barrier are starving for.

现在我还想快速提一下另一件很有趣的事，那就是抗性淀粉。

Now there's one other real quick thing I wanted to mention that's cool is resistant starch.

抗性淀粉并不完全等同于膳食纤维，但它在很多方面表现得像益生元纤维。

So resistant starch is not exactly the same as fiber, but it behaves a lot like the prebiotic fiber.

所以我们人体也没有能力分解抗性淀粉。

So, we don't have the ability to break down the resistant starch either.

正因如此，它才被称为‘抗性’淀粉。

That's why it's called resistant.

它能一直完整地到达结肠，并与你的微生物接触。

It lasts all the way to the colon and comes into contact with your microbes.

但这里有个有趣的地方，里奇。

But here's what's cool, Rich.

研究表明，一般来说，膳食纤维——顺便说一下，如果你在家听的话，我正轻拍右下腹。

The research is showing us that fiber, generally speaking, and by the way, if you're listening at home, I'm patting the right lower part of my abdomen.

YouTube上的人会看到这个。

People on YouTube will see this.

纤维通常滋养右结肠。

Fiber generally feeds the right colon.

这是从小肠离开后结肠的第一部分。

That's the first part of your colon after it leaves the small intestine.

但你的整个结肠中都有微生物。

But you have microbes throughout your entire colon.

它们也需要被滋养。

They need to be fed too.

抗性淀粉滋养你的左结肠。

Resistant starch feeds your left colon.

因此，想到这些我们甚至不曾留意的互补成分，真是非常有趣。

So, it's quite fascinating to think these complementary pieces that we don't even think about.

如果你只是吃各种植物性食物，它自然就能涵盖我说的所有内容。

If you just eat a variety of plant based food, it naturally addresses everything that I'm saying.

你不需要把这件事想得那么复杂。

You don't need to make it more complicated than that.

但我告诉你的科学发现是，纤维素滋养结肠的一部分，抗性淀粉则滋养另一部分，这真的很有趣。

But what I'm telling you is the science is showing us some really cool stuff about how fiber feeds one part, resistant starch feeds another.

哇，这太惊人了。

Wow, that's wild.

但一个简单的准则，我们上次也提到过，就是尽量在餐盘中多样化地摄入植物性食物，目标是在一周内摄入至少30种不同的植物。

But the rule of thumb, and we talked about this last time, is aim for a diversity of plant foods on your plate with the goal of trying to get at least 30 different types of plants over the course of a week.

是的。

Yeah.

这个说法是成立的。

And that holds true.

这个说法确实成立，但我们也得了解一下这个‘30’这个数字是怎么来的。

It holds true, but let's also let's also understand where that number 30 came from.

它并不是一个神奇的数字。

It's not a magical number.

这并不是一个门槛。

It's not a cliff.

但这是一个容易记住的

But it's an easy

确确实实是。

to remember definitely is.

但核心理念是，我不希望你达到30之后就停步。

But it's the core concept, which is that I don't want you to get to 30 and stop.

对吧？

Right?

我不希望你敷衍了事，比如买一种含有21种谷物的面包，就把它算作21种，然后再凑够9种。

I don't want you to shortchange yourself by taking the bread that's got 21 grains and counting that as 21, and then getting nine more.

对吧？

Right?

我希望你过一种生活：当你走进超市时，心里会想着这个理念。

What I want you to do is to have a life where when you walk into the supermarket, you're thinking about this idea.

医生。

Doctor.

B说植物的多样性。

B says diversity of plants.

当你在厨房准备晚餐时，你也在思考这个理念。

When you're in the kitchen and you're preparing dinner, you're thinking about this idea.

让我打开冰箱。

Let me open up the fridge.

我能拿什么？

What can I get?

让我看看食品储藏室。

Let me look in the pantry.

我能拿什么？

What can I get?

顺便说一下，植物不仅仅是新鲜蔬果。

By the way, plants are not just fresh produce.

对吧？

Right?

还有很多不易腐烂的食物我们可以利用。

There's tons of nonperishable stuff that we can do.

当你坐下来吃饭、摆盘的时候，机会在哪里？

And then when you sit down to eat and you're building your plate, where are the opportunities?

如果你把它变成一种游戏，并在每餐都这么做，你会自然而然地为餐盘增添多样性，你的肠道菌群也会对这种多样性做出反应。

And if you gamify it and you do this at every meal, you will naturally add variety to your plate, and your microbiome will respond to that variety.

你会因此变得更健康。

And you will become healthier as a person.

如果你只是数植物的数量，就不需要计算纤维的克数。

And you don't need to count grams of fiber if you just count plants.

热情的食肉族群会告诉你，关于纤维的一切都被夸大了。

The ardent carnivore tribe will tell you that everything about fiber is you know, overstated.

你的饮食其实并不需要纤维。

You don't really need fiber in your diet.

如果你只吃生酮饮食，你会没事的。

If you just eat a carnivore diet, you're gonna be fine.

那么，对此你有什么回应？记录一下。

Like, what is your response to that for the record?

让我先从这一点说起。

So let me let me let me start with this.

作为一名医生，我怀着同情心出发，我希望人们健康。

Coming from a position of compassion as a medical doctor, I want people to be healthy.

这正是我唯一关心的。

That's all I care about.

所以，如果一个人选择了我不认同的饮食方式，但反而变健康了，那很好。

And so if a person does a diet that I don't agree with and they get healthy, cool.

我为他们感到高兴。

Like, I'm happy for them.

但我也不会认为这种选择适合他们长期坚持，因为能让你在一年内受益的东西，并不等于能让你终身受益的东西。

I also wouldn't argue that that's the right choice for them for the long haul because something that helps you for a year is not the same as something that will help you for a lifetime.

但这个问题的关键在于，这其中确实有一点真理，里奇，问题是互联网无法承载像你我之间对话那样的细微差别。

And so but the the issue with this, there's like this little kernel of truth to it, Rich, and the problem is that like the internet doesn't allow nuance like you and I can have in a conversation.

如果你采用零碳水饮食，也就是100%的食肉饮食，你的身体就会进入酮症状态。

If you go zero carb, which is what a 100% carnivore diet is, then your body will flip into ketosis.

当你处于酮症状态时，你真的不会从中走出来。

And when you are in ketosis, because you won't Like, you really will not come out of that.

当你处于酮症状态时，你的身体会产生两种主要的酮体：β-羟丁酸和乙酰乙酸。

When you are in ketosis, you are producing two major ketone bodies, beta hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate.

所以，这里有个有趣的地方。

So, here's the interesting thing.

我认为这对我们所有人来说都是一个教训。

I think this is like a lesson for all of us.

我们都应该听听这一点。

We all need to hear this.

β-羟丁酸在结构上与丁酸在概念上相似。

Beta hydroxybutyrate is conceptually similar structure to butyrate.

乙酰乙酸的结构与乙酸相似。

Acetoacetate is similar structure to acetate.

如果你观察接收乙酸或丁酸的受体，乙酸和丁酸能完美地契合，就像钥匙和锁一样。

If you looked at the receptors that receive acetate or receive butyrate, acetate and butyrate fit perfectly lock and key.

如果你观察这些相同的受体，它们也能接受乙酰乙酸和β-羟基丁酸，但并不完全契合。

If you look at those same receptors, they will accept acetoacetate and beta hydroxybutyrate, but it's not a perfect fit.

因此，这些物质确实会产生一定的活性，但效果是减弱的。

So, you do get some level of activity from those things, but it is diminished.

这种活性是部分的。

It is fractional.

所以，如果你考虑一个吃西方饮食的人，他们本来就没有丁酸，饮食中也没有纤维，而你理论上让他们进入酮症状态——显然，100%动物性饮食能做到这一点——那么他们就能获得原本缺失的东西。

So, if you take the person who is on a Western diet, who doesn't have butyrate anyway, doesn't have fiber in their diet, and you were to, in theory, put them into ketosis, which clearly a 100% animal based diet would do that, then they would be getting something that they're missing.

对吧？

Right?

所以我理解这种观点的来源。

And so, I understand where that's coming from.

因为有一些人报告说他们好转了。

Because there are these people who report that they got better.

这就是我理解为什么这在短期内可能对他们有帮助的原因。

And this is how I understand that this may actually be helping them in the short term.

但还有其他问题。

But there's other issues.

你的身体里重要的事情不止这一件。

That's not the only thing that matters in your body.

所以现在的问题是，你的低密度脂蛋白胆固醇达到了500。

And so, the problem is now your LDL cholesterol is 500.

我们上次讨论过，我不会重复之前关于为何不能简单忽视低密度脂蛋白胆固醇与心脏病关系的论点。

You and I discussed last time, I'm not gonna repeat the same argument for why the idea that LDL cholesterol should be just dismissed when it comes to heart disease.

我们终将会有长期研究。

We're gonna have long term studies at some point.

这种饮食理念还太新，我们还没有长期研究数据，因此正在实践它的人，实际上是在测试一个全新的想法。

This dietary concept is too young for us to have the long term studies, so the people who are doing it, they are, in fact, testing a new idea.

而且我们还看到，里奇，很多遵循这种饮食模式的人最终不得不退回去。

And what we've also seen, Rich, is that a lot of the people who follow this pattern, they end up they end up having to walk it back.

我完全承认，确实有一些素食主义者也不得不退回去。

And I fully acknowledge there are some people on on the vegan side who've had to walk it back.

但人们退回去的原因并不仅仅是因为这种模式不可持续。

But the reason that people are walking it back is because it's not just that it's not a sustainable pattern.

也不仅仅是因为遵循这种模式很难。

It's not just that it's hard to follow that pattern.

而是因为他们确实出现了严重的健康问题。

It's that actually they're having serious health issues.

其中一部分是糖原耗竭。

Part of it is depletion of glycogen.

另一部分是影响了他们的激素水平。

Part of it is affecting their hormone levels.

对吧？

Right?

你经常听到这些故事。

And you hear these stories.

如果你留意一下，我不会点名任何具体的人，我绝对没有不敬的意思。

And if you look out I'm not gonna name any names, and I actually don't mean any disrespect whatsoever.

但如果你看看那些遵循这种模式的人，他们很难长期坚持下去。

But if you look out at the people who have followed that pattern, they don't last long in that pattern.

过去五年中最受欢迎的播客节目之一，是我和我充满活力的老朋友道格·埃文斯做的关于发芽益处的那期。当时——那是2020年6月——他刚出版了一本关于这个主题的畅销书《发芽之书》，此后他逐渐成为全球范围内推广发芽理念的首席倡导者。

One of the more popular podcast episodes of the last five years was the one I did on the benefits of sprouting with my very energetic longtime buddy, Doug Evans, who at the time, this was back in June 2020, had just released a bestselling book on the subject called The Sprout Book and has kinda gone on from there to become this sort of chief evangelist of the entire planet on all matter sprouting.

那期对话确实触动了很多人的共鸣，自从节目播出后，我不断收到人们分享他们发芽装置的照片，厨房变成了美丽的发芽农场，还有许多关于健康转变的故事，这些都源于道格传递的信息。

He really hit a nerve in that conversation because ever since then, ever since it aired, I've just been inundated with people sharing photos of their sprouting setups, kitchens turned into beautiful sprouting farms, and all these stories of health transformations Doug's message set in motion.

从那以后，人们对发芽的兴趣持续增长。

Since then, interest in sprouting has only grown.

这在一定程度上得益于人们对基于证据的科学认知日益提升，比如医生。

And this is in part due to growing awareness around the evidence based science that Doctor.

伦达·帕特里克几年前在我节目中分享的关于西兰花芽的营养超能力，这种芽富含萝卜硫素和抗氧化剂，以及其他多种对我们的身体系统和线粒体有显著支持作用的芽类。

Rhonda Patrick shared on my show a while back about the nutritious superpowers of broccoli sprouts, which are loaded with sulforaphane and antioxidants and other types of sprouts that support our bodily systems and mitochondria in ways that are truly substantial.