格雷格·伦弗鲁在纯净美妆领域发起反击

他们都说，你不能就这样放弃。

They're like, you just can't let this die.

她手里拿着我们的维C精华液——那一直是我们的畅销产品，她说：'妈妈，你付出了那么多努力。'

She was holding our vitamin C serum, which has always been our top selling product, and she said, mom, I just, you've worked so hard.

我们已经牺牲了这么多，真的不能让它就这样结束。

We've sacrificed so much, like, just don't let it die.

而我儿子几周前还在Instagram上发帖，试图向他朋友的妈妈们推销香水。

And my son, a couple weeks prior, had been trying to post about it on Instagram and sell perfume to his friends' moms.

他们真的非常努力想要保住我们拥有的一切。

Like, he they tried so hard to hold on to what we had.

所以当那个机会来临时——那是个周日的晚上。

And so in that moment when I had that opportunity, you know, I it was like a it was like a Sunday night.

我当时在迈阿密度春假，准备第二天早上飞回洛杉矶，我们全家开了个家庭会议。

I was in Miami on spring break, come back to fly back to LA in the morning, and we kinda had a family conversation.

然后，你知道，我转向马克——他是个在财务上相当谨慎保守的人。

And, you know, I turned to Mark who, you know, is really pretty fiscally responsible and conservative.

我就问，你觉得我该怎么办？

I just said, you know, what do you want me what should I do?

然后我们做了个疯狂的决定——在48小时内从止赎中买回公司。

And we made the crazy ass decision to buy the company out of foreclosure within forty eight hours.

我们变卖了不少积蓄，凑了一大笔现金。

And a bunch of my we sold a bunch of our savings and we coughed up a bunch of cash.

几位老投资人连文件都没签就直接汇款过来，说：'行吧格雷格，我们再挺你一次'。

A couple of my old investors wired in money with no paperwork and just said, alright, Greg, we're gonna back you again.

我们真的做到了。

And we did it.

我们买下了它。

And we bought it.

那个周日晚上决定的事，周四上午我们原本是要清算的。

Like, we were gonna That was Sunday night and Thursday morning we were going to liquidate.

所以我们只有两天时间来完成这件事。

So we had about two days to get it done.

哦，这感觉有点超现实。

Oh It's my sort of surreal.

这一切就发生在两天之内。

Like that all happened in two days.

是啊。

Yeah.

我是说，这太疯狂了。

I mean, it was crazy.

所以这个选择——为不了解情况的人说明一下——你其实已经赚了一大笔钱。

So the choice, just for people who don't know, like, you made a pile of money.

你本不必这么做的。

Like, you didn't have to do this.

你完全可以扬帆远去，要么开家新公司，要么下半辈子什么都不做，只管享受人生。

You could have sailed off and just either started a new company or not done anything essentially for the rest of your life, just enjoy your life.

但你却决定重新出山，试图解开这个极其复杂的死结，理清整个局面——这简直是自找麻烦，平白无故给自己生活添堵。

Instead, you decide that you're gonna go back in and try to, you know, untie this incredibly intricate knot and figure this whole thing out, which is just inviting, you know, all kinds of, you know, difficulty into your life unnecessarily.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

这确实很艰难，因为首先，我买下了，然后，你知道，这期间，，期间发生了很多法律纠纷，我必须做出可能是我职业生涯中最艰难的决定——一旦收购了公司，我就不得不解雇几乎所有员工，只留下少数几个，因为资金已经所剩无几。

And it's been it was hard because first I, you know, I bought it, then, you know, there were like all these legal situations going on and I had to make the like probably the hardest thing I've ever been through in my career was that once I bought the business, I had to fire all of the people that worked for the company, minus a few, because there was no cash left.

虽然我们筹集到了一点资金，但你知道，我们得为这笔生意支付一些费用，然后还得想办法维持运营。

And while we had raised a little bit of capital, we had to, you know, we had to pay something for the business, and then we had to figure out how to operate something.

为此我承受了铺天盖地的负面舆论。

And that for which I received so much negative backlash.

就像人们说的：'这个自称赋能女性、关爱员工的人，现在却连遣散费都不给就解雇所有人'。

Like, here's this person who says they empower women and care about people and she's firing everyone without any severance.

我认为最艰难的事情之一——我已经对那些所谓的'建设性反馈'免疫了——是我每晚都能心安理得，因为我知道真相。

I think one of the things that's been hardest and I've become immune to the, well, let's call it constructive feedback on me is that I can sleep at night knowing the truth.

人们往往不了解商业运作背后错综复杂的实际情况。

And what people often don't understand is the complexity of what's happening behind the scenes in a business.

因此，那些看似冷酷无情、不合时宜或过于严厉的选择，它们未必是决策，只是现实使然。

And so, some of the choices that seem either ruthless or tone deaf or really harsher, They're not necessarily decisions, just are what they are.

当你一分钱都没有的时候，就是真的山穷水尽了。

And when you don't have any cash, you don't have any cash.

所以我坦然面对了这些，也承受了来自公众的大量指责。

So, I've invited that and I took a lot of public, you know, a lot of skating from people publicly.

无论是品牌代言人还是公司员工都如此。

Both the women that had represented the brand as well as some of the corporate employees.

那段经历真的非常痛苦。

That was really painful.

我收到了极其恶毒的留言，比如'你是最可怕的人'之类的话。

I was getting really, really nasty messages like, you know, you're the most horrible person.

还有人诅咒说'你的孩子一定为你这个人感到羞耻'。

I hope your kids must be horrified by who you are.

我只能默默承受，告诉自己：我清楚真相，知道并非我故意伤害他们，但我理解他们的愤怒。

And I just had to somehow breathe through it and just say, I know my truth and I know that I didn't do this to people, but I understand why they're angry.

我确实理解他们为何愤怒。

And I did understand why they were angry.

但当我买下这家公司后，我真的经历了一次全面的焦虑发作。

But once I bought the business, I really literally had a full blown anxiety attack.

我当时吓坏了。

I was petrified.

我之所以恐惧，可能是因为我意识到必须关停它。

And I was petrified probably because I realized I had to shut it down.

为了让企业能活下去，为了能看到转机，我必须全面关停业务——因为当时的局面已无法维持。

And I had to shut the whole thing down in order for it to live, to see another day, because it an untenable situation.

我们没有足够的资金来维持企业继续运营。

We didn't have the capital to fund the business on a go forward basis.

回想收购时的自己，我觉得当时太天真了，竟以为或许能做到。

I think I was naive in the moments that I purchased it, thinking that maybe I could.

但当我看到具体数字时，我立刻意识到——我们至少需要筹集1亿美元资金，而我们根本没有这笔钱。

But the minute I looked at the dollars, I was like, there's literally we would have had to go raise like $100,000,000 We just didn't have the money.

我是说，我们连接近那个金额的钱都没有。

Mean, we didn't have close to the money.

所以当你接手时，你原本想着要让这个项目重获新生。

So when you entered into this, you were thinking, I'm gonna breathe life back into this.

要让它复苏过来。

Gonna resuscitate it.

我们打算一步步地让它重新站稳脚跟。

We're gonna get it, you know, one step at a time back on its feet.

然后你意识到情况的复杂性，以及一连串几乎无法解决的难题。

And then you realize the complexity of the situation and, you know, the endless, you know, series of nearly impossible problems to solve.

有没有那么一刻你觉得这是个糟糕的决定，你根本就不该回头接手这个？

Was there ever a moment where you thought like this was a terrible decision, I should have never gone back into this?

百分之百有过。

A 100%.

我是说，我有好多次都那么觉得。

I mean, multiple times I felt that way.

我记得非常清楚，当时就是那么想的。

I thought that that so I remember, I mean, remember that so distinctly.

我买下这家公司后，坐在家里的办公室，记得林赛·达尔——她曾是Beautycounter的使命负责人，现在仍是盟友和密友。

So I bought the business and I was sitting in my house office, and I remember Lindsay Dahl, who had been head of mission with Beautycounter and is still an ally and a close friend.

她现在经营Social Impact Ritual。

She now runs Social Impact Ritual.

她过来对我说：‘我们会搞定这件事’。

But she came over and she's like, We're gonna do this.

而我当时彻底崩溃了，歇斯底里地大哭。

And I just had a full blown sobbing, like hysterical meltdown.

‘什么情况？’

Like, what?

我害怕极了，因为我突然意识到自己承担的责任有多重大，以及这个决定带来的财务影响。

I was so scared because I just realized, like, the enormity of what I had taken on and the financial implications of the decision.

我当时想：‘天啊，这可能会让我家破产。’

And I thought, Oh my gosh, like, this is going to you know, this is going to bankrupt my family.

我对我的婚姻做了什么？

What have I done to my marriage?

比如，我要去找克丽丝吗？

Like, am I going to Chrissy?

那天她就像把我从悬崖边劝回来一样，对我说要一步一步来。

And she just sort of like talked me off the ledge that day and she was just like, got to take this one step at a time.

格雷格，你得好好想清楚这件事。

Greg, you got to think through this.

我想正是那次谈话让我在接下来的几天里意识到，最好的出路是放弃这个生意，出于所有显而易见的原因，这不是个容易的决定。

And I think that it was that conversation that led me over the next couple days to realizing that the best path forward was to let the business go, which was not an easy decision for all the obvious reasons.

我在大学时经历过一次痛苦的分手。

I had a bad breakup in college.

我当时深爱着我的男朋友，那种感觉真是撕心裂肺。

I was super in love with my boyfriend, and it was, like, just heart wrenching.

我记得我的朋友们都说，听我喋喋不休地谈论这个男人已经够多了。

And I remember my friends were like, we've listened to you go on and on about this guy.

比如，你得去找个心理医生谈谈。

Like, you gotta go talk to a therapist.

就是说，我们真的帮不了你了。

Like, you can't like, we can't help you anymore.

然后我去见了他的心理医生，你知道，我在那儿哭得稀里哗啦的。

And I went to talk to his therapist, and I was, you know, crying, whatever.

我是说，那大概是89年之类的时候。

I mean, this is, you know, 89 or something.

我当时还说，但我爱他啊什么的。

And I was like, but I love him and whatever.

我记得他说，如果你想这段关系有任何重新开始的可能，就必须让它彻底结束。

And he said, I remember him saying, if you want any chance of that relationship starting again, you need to let it completely die.

他说，别联系他，别见他，绝对不要再和他发生关系。

He's like, don't talk to him, don't look with him, definitely don't have sex with him.

就是，让它彻底结束。

Like, let it die.

如果你让它彻底结束，或许还有重生的可能。

And if you let it die, there's a chance that it can be reborn.

我知道这听起来很傻，但当时我脑海里一直想着这个。

And I know it seems so silly, but in my mind I was thinking about that.

如果我放手，承担这个决定的所有后果，我们或许还有机会让它以更好的方式重生。

If I let this go and deal with all the consequences of that decision, we might just have a chance of letting it let it be born again and be born in a better way.

所以我就这么做了。

And so that's what I did.

我在2024年5月1日正式关闭了它。

I shut it down on 05/01/2024.

我记得你当时发了个Instagram帖子之类的，就说要暂停运营，重启时会通知大家。

I remember when you, I don't know if it was like an Instagram post or something like that where you were just like, it's shutting down, we'll let you know when it's coming back.

基本上就是不做任何承诺，做出这样的决定本身就很艰难，还要公开承认并告诉大家'这就是我们的现状'，真的需要很大勇气。

Like we're not basically we're not making any promises, which is just like such a what a difficult decision to make and then to kind of own it and then publicly share it like this is where we're at you know, is a heavy deal.

我当时就在想，你是怎么熬过那段时间的？

And I remember thinking, how do you get through the day?

比如你是如何应对的，无论是卡莱尔那边的情况，还是你现在面临的新处境，你是如何管理这些压力和肩负如此重大责任带来的紧张感的？

Like how do you, whether it's what was happening with Carlisle or then this new situation that you find yourself in, like how are you managing the stress and the pressure of shouldering like that much responsibility?

首先，我是个绝对坦诚直率的人。

Well, of all, I'm an absolutely no bullshit transparent person.

即便是现在，在播客上公开谈论这件事，我也能坦然面对自己的情绪，承认这非常艰难、充满情感波动且令人恐惧。

And even now, like, even talking about it, even on a podcast, even publicly, I'm okay with, like, being emotional and admitting it was super hard and super emotional and scary, all those things.

我认为当你向世界袒露这些时，世界会找到你，人们会聚拢过来帮助你。

Like, I think that but when you put that out to the world, the world kind of finds you and people surround themselves and help you.

有很多人对我说过'我们会挺过去的'，无论是林赛、与我合作多年的贾斯汀·斯托尔茨福斯、克里斯蒂·科尔曼，还是那些一直陪伴我的人，当然还有我丈夫马克，他们都说'我们能行'。

And I had so many people that just said, like, we're gonna get through this, whether it was Lindsay or Justin Stolzfuss, who'd been my partner for years, or, Christy Coleman, or like all these people that had been with me, you know, there were people obviously Mark, my husband, they were like, We've got this.

格雷格，你能行的。

You've got this, Greg.

你能做到。

Like, you can do this.

我认为我允许自己这样做，因为我确实保留了一支小团队，我记得他们的态度很明确——正如他们应有的立场——毕竟我是CEO。

And I think that what I did give myself permission to do, because I did keep like a small crew of people, And I remember them being kind of like, as they should be, like, I'm the CEO.

计划是什么？

What's the plan?

最后我不得不说，我不知道。

And I finally had to say, like, I don't know.

我现在还没有计划。

I don't have a plan right now.

所以，我打算用接下来的三个月时间，就在这个夏天。

So, I'm gonna take the next three months this summer.

我会保留你们中的一小部分人。

I'm gonna keep a small group of you.

我会支付你们薪水。

I'm gonna pay you.

除此之外我不能承诺太多，但我可以支付接下来几个月的工资。

I can't promise you much beyond that, but I can pay you for the next couple months.

如果你想继续跟着我，我会非常欢迎。

If you wanna stick with me, I'd love it.

如果你不愿意，我完全理解。

If you don't, I totally understand.

我会帮你另找一份工作。

I'll help you find another job.

但我需要花点时间喘口气，好好想想我到底该怎么做。

But I need to take a moment to breathe and to figure out what the hell I'm gonna do.

因为我接手时根本没打算买下它又关掉它，当时我完全不知道自己在做什么。

Because I didn't go into this with the intention of buying it and shutting it down, and I literally had no idea what I was doing.

所以在去年夏天，2024年或者说一年前，我花了大量时间阅读、思考、与人交流，试图弄明白：哪里还有市场空白？

And so last summer, the 2024 or a year ago, I just spent a lot of time reading and thinking and having conversations with people and trying to figure out, okay, where is the white space?

我们该如何重掌领导地位？

How do we lead again?

我们该如何转守为攻？

How do we go back in on offense?

我当时就想：换作是史蒂夫·乔布斯，此刻会怎么做？

And I was like, what would Steve Jobs do in this moment?

那些在我之前的伟大领袖们，如果他们遇到这样的机会，他们会怎么做？

What would, you know, some of these great leaders that have, you know, come before me, what would they have done if they had been afforded this opportunity?

我能否将这一切视为一份礼物，并给予自己真正思考的空间？

And can I look at this as a gift and can I give myself the space to really think?

我只是试着一天一天地慢慢来。

And I just tried to take it like one day at a time.

和你一样，里奇，我也开始非常严格地管理自己的身体。

And like you, Rich, I also became very disciplined in my body.

比如我的健康，我非常注重饮食、饮水、锻炼，尽可能多地冥想、泡长时间的热水澡、散步、听音乐，给自己留出空间。

Like, my health, like, I was, like, very focused on what I was eating, what I was drinking, my exercise, like, trying to, like, meditate whenever I could, taking long baths, going for long walks, like, listening to music, like, giving myself space.

本播客由Squarespace赞助播出。

This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace.

作为一个长期在线上建立并保持影响力的人，我可以告诉你，这需要的是不再寻求他人许可，而是允许自己创建平台、分享专业知识、放大声音、建立社区并为之服务。

As someone who has been able to create an influential presence online and sustain it for a long period of time, I can tell you that what it requires is getting over asking others for permission and giving it to yourself to create a platform, to share your expertise, to amplify your voice, to build a community and to serve it.

要实现这些，就用Squarespace吧，因为它能一站式满足你获取域名、用专业网站展示产品、提升品牌形象和实现收款的所有需求。

To get there, get Squarespace because Squarespace gives you everything you need to claim your domain, showcase your offerings with a professional website, grow your brand, and get paid all in one place.

获奖模板意味着你从一开始就能拥有精美的设计，任何人都可以通过拖拽编辑进行定制，打造出完全个性化的作品。

Award winning templates mean that you start with something beautiful right out of the gate that you, anyone, can then customize using drag and drop editing to build something that looks completely bespoke.

视频展示功能让你可以创建视频库，非常适合在线课程或优质内容。

The video showcase features allow you to create video libraries, perfect for online courses or premium content.

你可以轻松添加付费墙直接变现专业知识，他们的邮件营销工具还能帮你建立客户关系。

You can easily add paywalls to monetize your expertise directly and their email campaign tools handle relationship building for you.

所以别再等待别人为你打造，现在就开始自己动手吧。

So stop waiting for someone else to build for you what you can build for yourself right now.

访问squarespace.com/richroll，使用代码richroll首次购买网站或域名可享9折优惠。

Check out squarespace.com/richroll to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using the code richroll.

大多数可穿戴设备只能告诉你已发生的情况。

Most wearables tell you what happened.

你的睡眠质量如何？

How good was your sleep?

你的恢复进度到哪里了？

Where's your recovery at?

你达到步数目标了吗？

Did you hit your steps?

但它们并不会真正告诉你原因，更不用说该如何应对了。

But they don't really tell you why, let alone what to really do about it.

唯有WHOOP能例外，它能全面呈现你的健康状况——从睡眠质量到恢复状态，再到衰老进程。

That is except for WHOOP, which gives you a complete picture of your health from how you sleep to how you recover to how you're aging.

而现在，重大突破来了——全新WHOOP高级实验室整合了65+项关键生物标志物（如胆固醇、维生素D和皮质醇）与佩戴设备产生的10万+日常健康数据点。

And now, and this is huge, the new WHOOP Advanced Labs brings together over 65 key biomarkers like cholesterol, vitamin D and cortisol with more than 100,000 daily health data points from wearing the device.

当你预约实验室检测时，收到的不是晦涩难懂的电子表格。

When you schedule a lab test, you're not getting a spreadsheet that you don't understand.

而是关于体内真实状况的清晰解读，以及改善健康的具体行动方案。

You're getting clarity on what's really happening inside your body and concrete next steps to improve your health.

每项检测结果都由临床医师审核。

Every test is reviewed by a clinician.

你获得的不是冰冷数字，而是将各项指标关联起来的个性化计划。

And instead of just numbers, you get a personalized plan that connects the dots.

从睡眠模式到特定补充剂，哪些习惯能真正改善你的特定健康指标。

Exactly which habits from sleep patterns to specific supplements are going to move your specific health markers.

免费试用WHOOP一个月，请访问join.whoop.com/roll。

For one month free of WHOOP, go to join.whoop.com/roll.

保健品行业有个现象：一旦某样东西成为主流，市场就会泛滥，质量直线下降。

There's this thing that happens in the supplement space where the second something goes mainstream, the market gets flooded and quality tanks.

肌酸现在正经历这种情况。

Creatine sort of going through this right now.

大家终于明白它不仅适合健身爱好者。

Everyone finally gets that it's not just for Jim Bros.

它对大脑健康、恢复能力和长寿都有益处。

It's for brain health and recovery and longevity.

但现在市面上充斥着各种软糖版本，本质上只是糖果。

But now you've got all these brands pumping out gummy versions that are essentially just candy.

Momentous采取了不同的策略，这是我喜欢并选择与他们合作的原因之一。

Momentous took a different approach, which is one of the reasons why I love them and why I partner with them.

他们花了数年而非数月时间，坚持不推出咀嚼产品，直到能在不妥协品质的前提下实现。

They spent years, not months, years, refusing to release a chewable until they could do it without compromising.

最终成果便是Momentous肌酸咀嚼片，达到了他们所谓的Momentous标准。

And the result of this is Momentous Creatine Chews, which meets what they call the Momentous standard.

需要说明的是，这套标准同样受到奥运选手和职业运动队的信赖。

The same standard, I might add, trusted by Olympians and pro teams.

每粒咀嚼片含一克德国单源纯净一水肌酸，通过NSF运动认证，且不含任何奇怪的人工添加剂。

Each chew delivers one gram of pure creatine monohydrate, single source from Germany, NSF certified for sport, of course, and without any weird artificial stuff.

现在你可以随身携带，彻底摆脱粉剂和摇摇杯的麻烦。

Now you can keep them anywhere, which removes all the friction that comes with powders and shakers.

立即访问livemomentous.com，使用优惠码rich roll首单可享高达35%折扣。

So head over to livemomentous.com and use code rich roll for up to 35% off your first order.

在这一切之中，你作为CEO和成功商人的自我认知、人际关系或身份认同处于什么状态？

Amidst all of this, where is your sense of self or your relationship or your attachment to your identity as a CEO and a successful business person?

由于这些在安德路上受到公开质疑，我猜...那个自我可不太乐意接受吧。

Like is because this is being challenged publicly along the And way, I suspect that, you know, the ego was not very happy with that.

所以我想，当我被要求离开P时

So I think when I was asked to leave P.

D

D.

在前任CEO领导下的Counter公司期间，那是我跌入人生低谷的时刻，我记得自己走进房间时的情形

Counter under this previous CEO's leadership, I think that was the time that I went to a really dark place where I I remember walking into rooms.

我每年都会和大约50位女性朋友一起出游，她们来自不同背景和职业，都是非常优秀的女性群体

There's a group of about 50 women that I go away with every year, really accomplished group of women of all different backgrounds and professions.

我记得2022年去犹他州的时候——也可能是23年——当时我感觉自己不再属于那里

And I remember going to Utah in the 2022, and or maybe it was '3, and I felt like I no longer belonged.

我记得有人给了我一个拥抱，但她当时目光越过我的肩膀，这让我整个周末都很难过，因为我觉得自己不该出现在那里

I remember someone giving me a hug, and she kind of looked over my shoulder at the time, and it like killed my entire weekend because I was like, I'm not meant to be here anymore.

你人在这里，但你知道，虽然没人明说，可你清楚自己是个局外人

You're here, but you know, nobody's saying anything, but you know you're on the outside.

是啊，在我心里我已经是个局外人了

Yeah, I'm on the outside in my head.

在他们心中，他们正围绕着我——你依然是那个创立Clean Beauty、领导这家公司并以十亿美元将其出售、在经济上赋能数十万女性的女性。

In their head, they were rallying around me you're still the woman that started Clean Beauty and led this business and sold it for a billion dollars and economically empowered hundreds of thousands of women.

他们注视着我，但在我自己心里，我却想着：没有Beautycounter，我究竟是谁？

They are looking at me, but in my own mind, I'm like, who am I without Beautycounter?

我不再是CEO或那位备受尊敬的企业家时，我是谁？

Who am I not as a CEO or this well respected entrepreneur?

我花了大量时间进行能量疗愈工作、与通灵者和治疗师交谈、接受心理治疗、阅读书籍。

And I had a lot of I spent a lot of time, like, doing energy work, healing work, talking to psychics in mediums, going to therapy, like, reading books.

我记得读到过，是大卫·布鲁克斯吗？

And I remember reading, is it David Brooks?

大卫·布鲁克斯是第二幕还是什么来着？

Is David Brooks the second actor or whatever?

我确实很尊敬他，但我想：该死，我还没准备好认输呢。

And And I really respect him, but I was like, well, shit, I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet.

为什么你要告诉我该放下激情去帮助他人，好像现在我自己就不能有所作为了？

Like, why are you telling me that to kind of be put out to passion and I can help others but I can't do something now?

我已经过了巅峰期。

I'm past my prime.

所以，我不确定，我做了很多那样的自我反省，

And so, I don't know, I did a lot of that, a lot of soul searching,

你知道的。

you know.

有没有哪本书或见解特别有帮助？

Was there any one book or insight that was helpful?

某种程度上他的书对我有启发，因为我有点抗拒其中的观点。

Well, some ways his book was helpful to me because I kind of rebelled against it.

我想我会标记它，我明白了。

I think that I'll tag it, I see.

是的，确实如此。

That, yeah, it did.

它就像是给我屁股底下点了把火。

It sort of like lit a fire under my ass.

但我也发现自己实在不擅长无所事事地闲坐着。

But I also just found that I'm not good at sitting around.

我记得我的孩子们过来时，他们会说，'妈妈，你居然穿着运动裤'，就好像这是多么不可思议的事。

I remember my I remember my kids coming up, they're like, are you, like, in your first of you don't even wear sweatpants.

你居然凌晨四点穿着运动裤躺在沙发上看网飞。

You're in sweatpants, like, the sofa watching Netflix at 04:00.

像是说，'妈妈，你这是怎么了？'

Like, what, mom?

'你到底在干什么呀？'

Like, what are you doing?

于是我开始思考：好吧，我生命中真正在乎的是什么？

And so I what I started to think about is, okay, what do I care about in life?

我在乎的是女性，是帮助她们、赋予她们力量——绝不是以损害男性为代价。我真心关注健康、生命、爱与陪伴，希望能帮助人们过上更好的生活。

And what I care about is women and helping them, powering them up, not in any way to the detriment of men, and I really do care about health and life and love and like being with people and helping them live better lives.

所以我开始专注于：如何将我在乎的事物与既有经验结合起来？

And so I started trying to focus on like, okay, well, how do I take the things I care about and the experience I have?

我该如何开始思考自己能为世界带来什么影响？

And how do I start thinking about what I might be able to do that has impact in the world?

尽管没有完美的计划，但这让我的大脑重新开始运转。

And that, even though I didn't have a perfect plan, it like it got my brain thinking again.

在那些黑暗时刻，我又开始构思新的想法。

And I started to ideate again in those dark moments.

但我确实经历过一些黑暗时刻。

But I had some dark moments.

说实话，直到23年马克对我说：你必须停下来。

And honestly, it probably wasn't until the '23 when Mark said to me, like, you you have to stop.

你必须放下愤怒，格雷格。

Like, you have to let go of your anger, Greg.

这既不体面——让你显得很难看，也让我们所有人都濒临崩溃。

Like, this is not it is neither becoming, like, it's just it doesn't make you look good, but also, like, you're sending us all over the edge.

你必须彻底放下这一切。

Like, you gotta let this all go.

你得现在做个决定了。

Like, you gotta make a decision now.

你是要一辈子活在愤怒中，还是放下过去继续前进？

Are you gonna be angry for the rest of your life, or are you gonna let it go and move on?

就在那一刻，我确实决定放下了。

And at that point, I did decide to let it go.

现在我真的，已经没有任何怨恨了。

And now I'm actually like, I have no anger.

这很神奇，虽然我们都知道这个道理，但当你真正决定并确实放下某些事情时，你就能原谅一切和所有人，为自己的行为负责，并且感到释然。

It's crazy when you, and you know this and we all know this, but when you actually decide to let something go and actually let it go, you can forgive everything and everyone and take responsibility for your own actions and feel fine.

只是这个过程花了很长时间。

It just took a long time.

当你意识到解决这个问题的关键在于开创全新事业，而非试图挽救原有品牌时，那个顿悟时刻是怎样的？

And what was the moment of clarity when you realized that the solution to this problem lied in kind of launching something new rather than just trying to resuscitate the brand that you had built?

我的意思是，我确实又深入研究了很多关于史蒂夫·乔布斯的做法。

I mean, again, definitely read a lot about what Steve Jobs did.

你知道，我读过他的书。

You know, I had read his books.

我重新研读了《鞋狗》，并思考伊冯·乔纳德现在会怎么做？

You know, I'd gone back and reread Shoe Dog and looked at what would Yvonne Chanar be doing right now?

鲍勃·艾格现在会怎么做？

What would Bob Iger be doing right now?

我还请教了生活中许多有影响力的女性领导者，她们都曾有所建树。

What other leaders that had led before talked to a lot of powerful women in my life that had done things.

我并不认为存在某个特定的顿悟时刻，但我意识到世界自2010年末、2011年我构思Beauty Counter以来已发生巨变。

And I don't think there was like one exact moment or whatever, but I think that I realized that the world had changed dramatically since I concepted Beauty Counter in late twenty ten, twenty eleven.

我的使命是满足当今消费者的需求。

And I was here to serve the needs of today's consumer.

这让我意识到，如果只是勉强推出Beautycounter 2.0版本是远远不够的。

So that led me sort of in a direction of thinking like, has to be like coming out as like limping out as Beautycounter two point zero wasn't gonna be good enough.

你会怎么判断——真正的领导者会如何行动？

Like, how do you know, what would a leader do?

领导者会为当下重新构想事物，汲取过去的精华并在此基础上发展，同时毫不避讳地承认事物需要呈现不同的面貌和感觉。

A leader would reimagine things for today and take the best of what was and build on that, but also be unapologetic about the fact that things need to feel different and look different.

我希望这个品牌——我希望公司能成为一家基于过去核心理念重新构想的新公司。

And I wanted to give the brand I wanted the company to be a new company reimagined based on some of the core tenets of the past.

因此我花了很多时间试图弄清楚那会是什么样子，哪些会保持不变，哪些会有所改变。

And so I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what that would be, what was going to be the same, and what was gonna be different.

并且诚实地认识到，经历这一切后我已不同，因此业务也必将不同且必须不同。

And knowing honestly that through all of this I'm different, so therefore the business will be different and has to be different.

我认为认识到这一点对我很重要，通过这些对话和阅读，我明白要想成功就必须主动出击，而不是以弱势姿态开局。

I think that was really important for me to recognize in myself and then know that through all these conversations and readings that in order to be successful, you have to go on offense and you go on offense not limping out of the gate.

嗯。

Mhmm.

如果这说得通的话。

If that makes sense.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我明白。

I get it.

其中一部分就是放弃'Beauty'这个词。

Part of that is drop the beauty.

直接叫'Counter'。

Just counter.

对。

Yeah.

这对我很重要。

That was important to me.

我是说，你知道，我其实从未真正喜欢过'Beauty Counter'这个名字。

I mean, you know, I I never really truly loved the name Beauty Counter.

你知道，我给品牌取名Beauty Counter的原因之一，就是有意采用双关语——代表与行业常规背道而驰

You know, one of the reasons that I named well, Beauty Counter was the intended double entendre of going counter to the industry.

同时也是因为这个名字当时还能注册到

It was also just a name we could get.

我的意思是，你知道的，有时候想注册的名字可能都被人占用了

I mean, you know, you like can get sometimes, like, everything's owned by someone.

但这本质上是对美容定义和体验的重新构想

But it was really about reimagining what beauty meant and the experience of beauty.

但这名字也有极大的局限性，首先，当你把'美丽'这个词放在男性面前时，大多数情况下

But it was also an incredibly limiting name because it was first of all, you put the name beauty in front of men and more times than

你都很棒。

not, you're awesome.

向男性推销任何东西。

Sell anything to men.

不。

No.

其次，'counter'（对抗）体现了我们工作的核心和我们是谁

And second of all, the counter was the essence of what we were doing and who

当你说'beauty counter'时，人们只会联想到柜台

we When you say beauty counter, you just think of a countertop.

你根本体会不到你想表达的'对抗'这层双关含义

Like, you're not getting that double entendre that you're trying to counter something And

对我来说，这始终意味着逆流而上

that for me, it's always been about going against the grain.

这某种程度上就是我的本性，你懂吗？

Like, it's kinda who I am, you know?

人们要么非常喜欢我，要么完全不喜欢

People really love me or they don't.

有很多人喜欢我，也有很多人不喜欢——因为我说话极其直接，毫不拐弯抹角

Like, there are a lot of people that love me, there are lot of people that don't because I am extremely direct, I'm in your face.

所以我创业的初衷，就是要对抗行业潜规则：往产品里添加有毒成分、用所谓美容秘诀打掩护（现在依然如此）、还欺骗消费者说这是纯天然或芦荟成分之类的鬼话

And so for me, the first time I started the company, it was going counter to the industry norms of putting toxic chemicals into products and kind of hiding under a bunch of beauty secrets, which still happens, and lying to the consumer about whether or not this was natural or aloe based or whatever bullshit was out there.

我想挑战这个行业，证明还有更好的发展道路，并且我希望推动法律变革，以保护人们的健康与安全。

And I wanted to go up against the industry and prove that there was a better way forward, and I wanted to change the laws so that we were, you know, protecting the health and safety of people.

这一次，我们做得不错。

This time around, was like, okay, we did a good job.

很多人加入我们，追随我们的步伐，模仿我们的做法等等。

And a lot of people joined us and followed our lead and copied us and whatever.

如今'纯净'这个词对消费者再次变得毫无意义，因为我们已经把它稀释得面目全非。

And now the word clean out there means absolutely nothing to the consumer once again because we've watered it down.

所以对我来说，对抗现状不仅意味着要重新构想商业模式，还需要抵制大型零售商的做法——他们制定了各种不同的'纯净'标准。

So to me, to go counter to it meant that not only did I have to reimagine the business model, but also we needed to go counter to like what all the large box retailers have done, which is creating all bunch of different standards of clean.

我觉得现在有机会设立新标准，来定义什么才是真正的'纯净'。

And I feel like now I have an opportunity to set a new standard to say this is actually what clean means.

不是随便去掉五种成分就能草草了事的。

And it's not just taking five ingredients out and calling it a day.

那样的产品根本算不上纯净。

Like, that's not actually a clean product.

漂绿行为已演变成清洁概念的滥用

Greenwashing has become clean washing

完全同意。

100%.

在消费品领域，基本上就是你说的这种情况。

In the consumer product space, basically is what you're saying.

百分百赞同。

100%.

归根结底，纯净标准依然值得我们去捍卫。

And at the end of the day, clean is still worth fighting for.

你之前问我为什么要这么做？

You asked me earlier, like, Why would you do it?

因为我希望人们能过上健康的生活。

Because I want people to live healthy lives.

而且我确切知道某些化学物质会严重破坏我们的内分泌系统，或导致神经毒性、生殖毒性。

And I know for a fact that there are certain chemicals that wreak havoc on our endocrine systems or create neurotoxicity or reproductive toxicity.

我看过数据，虽然记不清确切数字，但大约40%的男性精子存在缺陷。

I look, I think I don't know the exact statistic, but it's like forty percent of male sperm is not defective.

我是说，这是个不容忽视的严重问题。

I mean, a no bullshit problem.

而现在问题已经...比起大型集团和品牌，

And and yet the industry and it's less now about the big conglomerates and the brands.

更多是零售商的问题。

It's more about the retailers.

他们正以极其利己的方式制定自己的标准，毕竟他们是资本家。

They're they're creating their own standards in a very self serving way because they're capitalists.

这点我能理解。

And I get that.

哦，这我之前不知道。

Oh, I didn't know that.

所以零售商是在这些产品之上，披了层所谓的'清洁'外衣。

So so the retailers are putting their own veneer of like quote unquote clean on top of whatever these products are.

而且这完全不一致。

And it's completely inconsistent.

所以你在百货商店看到的，比如塔吉特、沃尔玛、丝芙兰、Ulta，或者随便哪个品牌，Credo之类的，所有这些零售商对‘清洁’的定义都完全不同。

So what you see at, let's just say, a department store versus Target versus Walmart versus Sephora versus Ulta versus you name the brand, Credo, whatever it is, all these retailers are defining clean in a completely different way.

那么作为消费者，这对我意味着什么？

And so as a consumer, what does that mean for me?

再次因为联邦层面缺乏监管，你仍然可以标榜‘清洁’，但实际上不必真的清洁，懂吗？

And again, because of lack of regulation on the federal side, you can still clean clean and doesn't have to be clean, you know?

上次你来这里时，我们主要讨论的就是这个话题。

It's a So last time you were here, way back when, I mean most of what we talked about was this.

你知道，我们需要了解美容产品乃至更广泛的消费品在毒性方面的哪些信息？

You know, what do we need to understand in terms of the toxicity of beauty products, consumer products even more broadly?

当前在保护消费者免受这些问题侵害方面，监管和立法现状如何。

What is the current state of the regulatory and legislative landscape with respect to protecting consumers from these things.

我们谈了很多，你知道，你去国会作证多少次了？这算是你的专长对吧？

And we talked a lot about, you know, I mean, how many times have you gone to the Hill and testified like this is like your thing, right?

这曾是Beauty Counter背后的驱动力，现在依然是，可以说是你在这方面的核心使命。

This is the engine behind or was the engine behind Beauty Counter and still remains to be, you know, your kind of like defining mission in regard to all of this.

如今对于Counter品牌而言，这一理念显然依然保持一致。

And now with Counter, that obviously remains consistent.

但我很好奇，与那时相比，现在的立法和监管环境是怎样的状况。

But I'm curious around what that legislative, regulatory landscape looks like now compared to that.

嗯，2019年到2025年间的变化确实非常显著。

Well, I mean, the difference between 2019 and 2025 is significant.

我认为，当我们协助通过《化妆品法规现代化法案》（MOCRA）时——这是几年前通过的——这是自1938年以来首次对主要联邦化妆品法规进行重大更新。

I think that, so when we were able to help pass MOCRA, which is the modernization of the cosmetics regulation act, which went through a couple years ago, and that was the first time a major federal law had been updated since 1938.

我为我们协助推动该法案通过感到自豪。

And I'm proud that we helped in the passing of that.

该法案赋予了FDA在化妆品危害健康时进行产品召回的权力。

And it allowed for things like the FDA could recall a product when it was known to cause harm to health.

快进到现在，化妆品改革仍然获得两党的共同支持。

Fast forward to where we are today, you still have bipartisan support for cosmetic reform.

当我说化妆品时，我之前也跟你说过，这可以是防晒霜、泡泡浴、剃须膏或口红。

And when I say cosmetic, and I've said this to you before, it could be sunscreen, bubble bath, shave cream, or lipstick.

这些都包括在内。

It's all of the above.

如今面临的挑战是，正如你所想象的，一切都处于僵局，因为人们在任何问题上都无法达成一致。

What is challenging today right now, as you can imagine, is that everything's, you know, we're always at the standstill because people can't get along on any issue.

这个问题让我深感自豪的是，当我经营Beautycounter时，无论是极右派、极左派还是中间派，他们都能认同这是个重要议题，我们需要采取行动。

This is an issue that I was really proud of the fact that when I ran Beautycounter, had people on the far right and the far left and everything in between, and they could agree that this was an important issue and that we needed to take action.

如今当我在政治领域寻找倡导机会时，你会看到诸如香料漏洞这样的问题，它仍受国际知识产权法保护。

Today when I look at like opportunities for advocacy within the political arena, so to speak, you're looking at things like the fragrance loophole, which is still protected under international IP law.

这是个严重问题，因为许多最具危害性的化学物质都存在于香料中——正是那些邻苯二甲酸盐与人体内分泌系统高度相似。

That's a big problem because so many of the most offensive chemicals are found in fragrance because it's those phthalates that so closely mimic your endocrine system.

但它们正是将香气锁定在皮肤上的成分。

But they're the ones that bind that scent to your skin.

而且我们知道，香料目前正迎来一个巨大的发展契机。

And we know that fragrance is having a huge moment right now.

因此，我们有机会通过小范围行动针对特定问题，我认为这将有助于保护人们的健康与安全。

So there are opportunities in small ways to go after specific things that I think would help protect the health and safety people.

国会中仍有成员在努力推动无毒化妆品相关的法案，我们将继续支持这些努力。

There are members of Congress that are still trying to put forth bills on, you know, toxic free cosmetics, and we will continue to support that.

但在这个特殊时刻，当我思考Counter组织的倡导工作时，我不希望仅仅聚焦于华盛顿或州一级层面。

But at this particular moment in time, when I think about our advocacy efforts at Counter, I don't wanna just focus on Washington and or the state level.

我还希望从商业和市场的角度出发，建立一个关于'清洁'的标准，让所有人都能理解并遵循，使品牌明确自己的对标方向，消费者也能心中有数。

I also wanna look at business and commerce and the business world and go after it from that standpoint too in that how do we create a standard for clean that everyone can understand and live by so that brands know what they're performing against and consumers know.

这将归结于组建一个联盟——不仅是我们，还要集结一批重要企业共同表态：让我们制定一个公认能保护人们健康安全的标准，让消费者在市场上购物时能有明确指引。

And that will come down to creating a coalition, and not just with us, but getting a group of important companies together to say, Let's set a standard that we can all agree protects the health and safety people, that when they're out there shopping the market, they can navigate it.

我认为在商业领域而非仅立法层面开展倡导工作，存在一个有趣的机遇。

I think there's an interesting opportunity to advocate on the business side of things, not just on the legislative

确实，首先当前确实是个有趣的时刻。

side Yeah, I mean it seems like well, first of all, it is an interesting moment right now.

当然，还有我们食物和饮用水中的毒素问题。

Certainly, toxicity in our food and in our water.

我认为，普通消费者对这些问题的意识和关注度达到了前所未有的高度。

And there's never been more awareness and care, I think, from the average consumer about these things.

如今人们对这方面的认知程度是五年前所不存在的——很大程度上可以说整个MAHA运动推动了这一变化，因为这正是其核心宗旨，对吧？

Like there is a level of consciousness around this that didn't exist, you know, five years And I would have to say that in no small part like the whole MAHA movement has contributed to that because this is kind of what it's all about, right?

不幸的是，这恰好与一个以放松管制为核心的政府任期相重叠。

Unfortunately, it's paired with and coupled with an administration that is really just about deregulation.

因此这些力量实际上是在相互抵消。

So these things are working at cross purposes with each other.

你不能一边声称要清除食品中的毒素，一边却竭尽全力确保大企业能够不受约束地运营。

You can't say we're gonna get toxins out of our food and all these things while you're basically doing everything you can to make sure that large corporations can operate unencumbered.

这两者根本不相容。

Like these, they're not compatible.

所以按照你的观点，解决方案就是：我们需要消费者施压，也需要行业内部结成联盟来自主制定这些标准。

So the solution then to your point is, well, we need consumer pressure and we need coalitional support within the industry to set these standards for ourselves.

但这一切正发生在机构信任度跌至历史谷底的特殊时期。

But this is also happening at a moment where there hasn't been there has never been this much institutional distrust.

我认为消费者对这些认证和标签已经感到疲劳了。

And I think there is consumer fatigue when it comes to these certifications and labels.

这些东西现在到底还有什么意义？

Like, what do these things even mean anymore?

比如说什么'散养'啊，或者'有机'啊，这些词现在根本没有任何实际意义了。

It's like, oh, this is free range or what you know, it's like, but organic it's like these things don't mean anything anymore.

它们都已经被某种程度地败坏了。

They all get sort of corrupted.

我认为普通消费者的感受是，这到底意味着什么？我是否真的理解？

And I think the average consumer experience is like, do I even really what does this mean?

你知道吗，我真的能相信这个吗？

You know, can I really trust this?

或者他们干脆放弃了。

Or they just give up.

是啊，或者他们

Yeah, or they

我是说，甚至在我自己的生活中，有些我曾经非常在意的事情，现在却觉得，你知道，可能会让人感到沮丧。

I mean, I even in my own life, had certain things that I was like, things that I was so, like, hyper about before, I'm kind of like, you know, can be frustrating.

就像我之前在讨论回收利用时说的那样。

It's like I was talking about this about recycling.

然后你看看，你回收的东西实际上有多少百分比真的被...

And then you look at, like, what percentage of things that you've recycled actually Like, get

这真的有用吗？

this really doing anything?

就像，这值得吗？我认为我在之前的公司看到的一个机会，也是我现在遇到的，就是如果你能证明自己可以建立一个财务上可行且成功的企业实体，同时也在为社会做好事，你实际上能赢得尊重并引起其他一些公司的注意。

Like, is this worth I my think that I do think that one of the opportunities I saw in the old company that I see encounter today is that if you can demonstrate that you can build a financially viable and successful corporate entity that is also doing good work in the world, you can actually garner the respect and get the attention of some of these other companies.

这会给市场带来压力，而其他...

What puts market pressure on all And these other

我认为其中一些公司，你知道，我们作为一个国家面临的问题和挑战之一，特别是在食品或个人护理等方面，就是仍然存在相当程度的无知吗？

I think that some of these other companies, you know, there are I think one of the problems, the challenges that we face as a nation in general, and certainly with respect to this issue about whether it's on the food side of things or personal care side of things, whatever it might be, is there still a significant level of ignorance?

我这么说并非不敬，但人们仍然不太了解外面的实际情况。

And I don't mean that in a disrespectful way, but people still don't really understand what's going on out there.

那么你如何在不危言耸听、不把人们吓得半死的情况下，为他们提供足够的信息以做出明智选择？

And so how do you arm people with enough information that they can make an informed choice without fear mongering, without scaring them to death?

你如何通过展示财务和商业成功来吸引那些仍在使用传统做法的人注意，让他们看到——实际上这些新模式正在获胜？

And how do you show financial and business success in a way that people that you catch the attention of those that are still using the old school practices and seeing, well, they're actually winning.

消费者用钱包投票，而他们的增长速度实际上比我们更快。

Consumers voting with their dollars, and they're actually growing at a faster clip than we are.

也许我们确实应该做出一些调整。

Maybe we should actually make some adjustments.

与其羞辱那些没有做对的公司，不如向他们展示一条更好的前进道路。

And rather than shaming the companies that aren't doing the right thing, just show them a better path forward.

根据我过去十五年的经验发现，大多数人和大多数公司——因为公司是由人组成的——都想要做正确的事。

And I have found in my own experience over the last fifteen years that most people and most companies, because companies are built on people, wanna do the right thing.

但在市场压力下，做正确的事很难，因为当你失去利润点、股价暴跌时，这很艰难。

But with the pressures of the markets, it's hard to do the right thing because when you lose points of margin and your stock price tanks, it's hard.

所以这是个难题。

And so it's conundrum.

我的意思是，这确实是个充满挑战的局面。

I mean, really is a challenging situation.

但我确实认为，作为消费者的我们进行公共倡导很重要。

But I do think that public advocacy we are consumers.

消费者拥有话语权，他们需要运用这种声音。

Consumers have a voice, and they need to use that voice.

他们必须记住，在选举中投票是一种方式。

And they have to remember that when they vote in elections, yeah, that's one way of voting.

但你每次在生活中购买商品时，都是在用钱包投票。

But you vote with your wallet every single time you purchase something in your life.

关于消费者对这些事情缺乏认知或无知的问题，你希望消费者了解什么？

On the subject of consumer lack of awareness or ignorance about these things, what is it that you want the consumer to know?

嗯，就我所在的行业——美容和个人护理行业而言，我希望人们明白所谓的美丽秘诀都是骗人的。

Well, think with respect to my industry, the beauty and personal care industry, I want people to know that beauty secrets are bullshit.

我的意思是，这些全都是胡扯。

I mean, it's all bullshit.

我是说，想想这个。

I mean, just think about this.

我是说，你和我都在变老。

I mean, you and I are both, you know, getting older.

对吧？

Right?

我脸上有皱纹了。

I have wrinkles on my face.

对吧？

Right?

我就是这么认为的。

I just do.

皱纹根本不是问题，只是美容行业为了卖产品给你而编造的问题。

Wrinkles aren't a problem, they're just a thing that the beauty industry is telling you is a problem so they can sell you product.

我们就从这里开始说吧。

I mean, let's just start there.

我是说，真的。

I mean, really.

是啊。

Yeah.

皱纹不过是衰老过程的一部分，世界上每个人最终都会长出皱纹。

There's like, a wrinkle is just part of the aging process, and every single person in the world will get a wrinkle at some point.

这甚至称不上是个过程。

And it is not a process.

这只是生命的一部分。

It is just part of life.

整个行业都在鼓吹什么'用了这个产品就能获得青春之泉'之类的鬼话。

The entire industry of, like, building things like, oh, if you, you know, use this, you're gonna have the fountain of youth.

要我说，全是扯淡。

I mean, it's all bullshit.

所以首先，我希望人们明白根本不存在什么能消除皱纹的面霜。

So I think that, you know, one, I want people to understand that, like, there's no cream that's gonna get rid of your wrinkles.

它可能会改善你皮肤的保湿状况。

It might improve the moisture in your skin.

你可能会感觉肌肤更有光泽。

You might feel a little bit more radiant.

这些效果是真实的。

That stuff is true.

但没有什么能改变衰老的本质。

But nothing's gonna change things.

这是第一点。

That's one thing.

第二，不要相信包装上的宣传。

Two, don't believe what you see on the label.

你必须自己做功课。

Like, you've gotta do your research.

你也可以选择不做这些功课，这很正常。

You may not choose to wanna do the work, and that's fair.

但如果有人说它全是天然的、纯净的、芦荟基底的，或是用石榴籽制成的等等，

But if someone says it's all natural or clean or aloe based or it's got made with pomegranate seed or whatever,

总是这样，这些东西的创意简直疯狂，比如注入这个、特别那个...有各种疯狂的描述词，就为了让你以为有什么科学突破正在发生。

There's always It's just insane how creative these things get, like, infused with this and special There's all kinds of crazy descriptors, you know, to make you think that there's some scientific breakthrough happening.

当然不是。

Of course not.

当然。

Of course.

他们还会说'不含防腐剂'之类的话。

And they'll say things like preservative free.

懂吗？

Okay?

听着，如果你买的产品能在货架上放一两年不用冷藏，也不会在几周内过期，那绝对不可能不含防腐剂。

Well, that's there's no way that if you buy a product and it's sitting on the shelf for a year or two without having to be refrigerated and doesn't expire in a couple weeks, like that's not preservative free.

这意味着他们事先处理了原材料进行预保存，然后利用法规漏洞，就可以宣称这是'无添加防腐剂'。

That means that that person went in and pre preserved the raw materials, extracted them, and because of because of sort of loopholes, like they can claim that to be preserved.

因为他们并没有像

Because they didn't they weren't like the

他们并没有主动地

They didn't actively

防腐是在装瓶前就已经处理好的

preserve It was preserved before they put it in the bottle or whatever.

没错。

Correct.

这就是人们往往意识不到的事情。

It's that kind of thing that people just don't realize.

食品行业也是如此。

And it's the same with, you know, with the food industry.

我一直说美容行业是借鉴食品行业的。

And I always say that the beauty industry drafts off the food industry.

所以接下来会怎样发展，我们拭目以待。

So what is happening there, what we're gonna get next.

所以我总是告诉人们，如果有一件事你可以做，那就是购买无香产品，因为至少你知道你正在去除许多不必列出的有害化学物质，无论是什么品牌。

And so I always just say to people, if there's like one thing you can do, shop fragrance free because at least you know you're removing a lot of the chemicals of concern that don't have to be listed no matter which brand it is.

我们会的。

We will.

我们总是列出成分，但人们并不列出来。

We always list the ingredients, but people don't list it.

但要知道，标签上看到的并不一定就是实际得到的。

But just know that, you know, what you see on the label isn't necessarily what you get.

如果你不是想购买清洁或天然产品，那也没关系。

And that's okay if you're if you're not trying to buy clean or natural product.

但如果你想买，就需要做功课。

But if you are, you need to do your homework.

那么常见的有害化学物质有哪些？为什么它们有害？

And what are the common chemicals of concern and why are they concerning?

我认为有很多种，但你经常在标签上看到的是某些对羟基苯甲酸酯类，比如甲基或乙基对羟基苯甲酸酯。

You know, I think there are a whole bunch, but a couple that you will see often on labels are some of the parabens, the methyl or ethyl parabens.

你会看到像EDTA、PEGs这类成分。

You'll see things like EDTA, the PEGs.

显然还有甲醛，但它从不会以甲醛的名称出现在标签上。

Obviously formaldehyde, but it never shows up as formaldehyde on the label.

就是这些东西。

Those things.

我之前提到过邻苯二甲酸盐，我认为任何模仿并干扰内分泌系统的物质，对生殖健康或神经系统健康都可能造成严重危害。

I talked earlier about phthalates and I think that anything that mimics your endocrine system and disrupts it can be really harmful in terms of your reproductive health or your neurological health.

所以我常对人们说：听着，我不是科学家，我没有所有答案，甚至对大部分这些化学物质都一知半解。

So I think that I always say to people is like, look, I'm not a scientist and I don't have all the answers or understand half of these chemicals, most of these chemicals.

但首先你应该知道的是，已有成千上万种化学物质被引入到从电子产品到食品、美容等各个商业领域。

But what you should know, first and foremost, is that many, many tens of thousands of chemicals have been introduced into commerce in everything, from electronics to food to beauty.

其中经过安全性和人体健康测试的不足10%。

And less than 10% of them have ever been tested for safety and human health.

所以你面对的是完全无监管的'狂野西部'。

And so you're dealing with the Wild Wild West.

因此，当你决定将某些东西摄入体内或涂抹在身体上时，谨慎行事总没错。

And so when you're making decisions about things you're putting in your body and on your body, just on the side of being cautious.

就像上车会系安全带，却可能随意将各种乳液或药剂涂满全身，而皮肤是你最大的器官。

Like, you'll put a seat belt on when you get in the car, but you'll just put anything, any lotion or potion all over your body, and your skin's your largest organ.

所以如果你考虑的是长寿和长期健康，要知道虽然当下可能没有反应，不会出现严重皮疹，但可能产生长期影响。

So if you're thinking about, you know, your longevity and your long term health, know that while it may not react in that moment, you might not see a huge rash breakout, it may have a long term impact.

我们可能并不清楚这一点，也许某个成分单独使用没问题，但你每天刷牙、剃须、用除臭剂、防晒霜和化妆品时，往身上涂抹了多少产品？

And we may not know that and maybe that one ingredient's okay in isolation, but many products are you putting on your body every day when you brush your teeth and you shave and you put deodorant on and sunscreen and makeup?

这些化学物质之间以及与你身体之间会产生怎样的相互作用？

And how do those chemicals interact with one another with your body?

是啊，这有个有趣的讽刺现象：在当下普遍存在制度性不信任的背景下，我们对这些产品却几乎有种反射性的无意识信任，想当然认为公司里的聪明人已经测试过所有东西，FDA也在监管这一切，若非经过审查测试并获准对人体健康安全，产品根本不可能上架销售。

Yeah, there's an interesting irony in that amidst all of this institutional distrust that's occurring right now, we have almost a reflexive unconscious trust when it comes to all of these products, assuming that smart people at the company have tested all of these things and that the FDA is overseeing all of this and it wouldn't be on the shelf and available to buy unless it has been vetted and tested and approved for human health and safety.

确实。

Yeah.

这其实让我很惊讶。

That's it actually surprises me.

甚至是我自己的朋友，有时候他们会说，这东西很纯净。

Even with my own friends when I mean, sometimes they'll say something, they're like, this is clean.

我就想，过去十年你都没听我说话吗？

I'm like, have you been listening to me for the last ten years?

你在跟我开玩笑吧？

Like, you kidding me?

这根本不纯净。

This is not clean.

这甚至完全不纯净。

This is not even remotely clean.

但你就因为包装上有片叶子图案之类的，就觉得这是好东西。

But somehow you think it is because it has like a leaf on the packaging or something and you think it's like this thing.

我觉得

I think that

但举证责任，这种预设完全是颠倒的，对吧？

But the burden of proof, like the presumption is upside down, right?

必须证明其有害性。

It has to be proven harmful.

默认是安全的。

It's assumed Yes.

默认安全，直到被证明有害，而非必须先证明安全才能作为商品上市。

It's assumed safe until proven harmful rather than having to be proven safe prior to being able to be available as a commercial product.

确实如此。

That is true.

我认为Counter选择回归包含社区商业的商业模式，并创建平台让女性作为品牌合伙人销售产品——其中一个原因就是

And I think that with Counter, one of the reasons that we made the decision to go back into a business model that incorporated community based commerce and created a platform upon which women can represent the brand as brand partners and sell products should they so desire.

我这么做的一个原因是我们相信朋友。

One of the reasons I did that is because I think we believe friends.

我们倾听可信赖朋友的意见。

We listen to our trusted friends.

我认为如果让女性群体掌握信息——哪怕只是少量信息，她们并不需要博士学位之类的资质。

And I think that if you arm an army of women with information, small amounts of information, they don't need to have their doctorate and, you know, whatever.

但只要你略知一二，能帮助人们做出更明智的选择，我们往往更信任彼此。

But just if you know a little bit and you can help people make more informed choices, we tend to trust one another.

所有这些网红都在反对清洁和科学之类的，你知道，有些事情就是如此。

And all these influencers are going against clean and science, whatever, you know, there just are some things.

比如，如果你把甲醛注入体内——那可是用来保存青蛙的东西，可能对你的身体真的不太好。

Like, you know, if you're putting formaldehyde in your body and that's what's been used to preserve frogs, like maybe it's just probably not all that good for your body.

所以要多加注意。

And just to and so to be a little bit mindful.

我坚信应该让女性分享我们的故事，传播这些信息，帮助她们的朋友、社区和家人做出更好的选择。

And I and I think that we really believe in having women share our story, share this story, share information to help their friends, their communities, their families make better choices.

直到今天我仍坚信这点，就像创立Beautycounter时一样——正如我们常说的，没有什么比点燃一群在乎的女性心中的火焰更能改变世界了。

And I believe in that today as much as I did when I started Beautycounter, is in the power of, you know, we say there's no better way to change the world than lighting a fire under the asses of a bunch of women who care.

女性关心保护自己的身体，但更重要的是，她们关心保护自己的孩子、家人和所爱之人。

And women care about protecting their bodies, but more importantly, they care about protecting their children, their families, and their loved ones.

不过作为领导者，你面临着一个难题：在重塑这个美妆品牌并推出Counter时，你需要重建与这些关键女性群体之间被侵蚀的信任。

Herein lies the rub for you though as a leader because in the reimagination of this beauty brand and the launch of Counter, you're faced with the prospect of having to rebuild trust that has been eroded with these women that, you know, you need.

你需要站在你这边。

You need to be on your side.

那么你打算如何着手修复这段关系并重建信任呢？

So how are you approaching that so that you can repair that relationship and restore that trust?

慢慢来。

Slowly.

我正在花时间处理这件事。

I'm taking my time with it.

我认为有几件事你做不到。

I think that you can't, I think a couple things.

首先，在这样的时刻，我正努力寻找能坦诚分享自己故事的机会。

One, in moments like this, I'm trying to be I'm I'm trying to find opportunities where I can share my story honestly.

因为你知道，销售Beautycounter的女性们了解我的一点是：我可能会说出你喜欢的话，也可能会说出你讨厌的话。

Because, you know, one of the things that the women who sold Beautycounter knew about me is I would say, you might like what I'm gonna say, you might hate what I'm gonna say.

你可能喜欢我，也可能讨厌我，但你知道我是个直来直去的人。

You might like me, you might hate me, but you know that I'm like a no bullshit person.

我永远会对你说实话。

I'm always gonna tell you the truth.

即使这不受欢迎。

Even when it's unpopular.

所以我一直在花时间谨慎、深思熟虑地讲述我的故事，明白重建他人信任确实需要时间。

And so I've been spending time telling my story carefully, thoughtfully, understanding that it does take time to rebuild someone's trust.

有些人立刻回来了，因为他们...其他人则对此反应较慢。

Some people came right back because they Others have been slower to it.

有些人不信任我，也许永远不会信任，因为他们不了解实际情况。

Some don't trust and maybe never will because they don't understand what actually went down.

我可以接受这就是生活的一部分。

And I can accept that that's just part of life.

我不会坐在那里谈论那些我不被允许谈论或对任何人都没有帮助的事情。

And I'm not gonna sit and tell things that I'm not allowed to talk about or that just are not helpful to anyone.

但我认为行动胜于雄辩。

But I think it's also like actions speak louder than words.

所以我就在这里。

And so it's like I'm here.

我再次出现了。

I showed up again.

我以CEO的身份再次出现，尽管曾被解雇，但我仍支持这项使命，支持女性，帮助她们继续创业。

I showed up again as CEO having been fired from my job to support the mission, to support the women, to help them continue to build businesses.

我并非轻率地关闭了那家企业。

I shut that business down not not lightly.

那是个非常、非常艰难的决定。

It was a really, really difficult decision.

但我让它重新运作起来，因为我在这里主要是为了支持人们，尤其是女性。

But I brought it back because I am here in support of people and women predominantly.

我支持我们的使命。

And I am in support of our mission.

我依然认为值得为之奋斗。

I still think it's worth fighting for.

所以，你看，这是个缓慢的积累过程。

So, you know, look, it's a slow build.

但我确实认为，随着我慢慢与人交谈，他们意识到我再次以实际行动践行承诺时，人们正逐渐回归。

But I do think slowly by slowly as I talk to people and they realize I'm actually walking the walk again that they are coming back.

你知道，已有约15,000名女性重新加入我们，她们不仅相信这里存在创业机会，更重要的是相信我们将再次言行一致，继续推进过去的努力。

You know, we've had about 15,000 women join us again who do believe that there is not only an opportunity to build a business, but most importantly that we're gonna walk the walk again and we're gonna continue to further the efforts of the past.

那么Counter商业模式与您和这些女性合作的方式有哪些异同？

And what are the similarities and differences in Counter's business model vis a vis how you're working with these women?

是遵循相同原则还是说——

Is it the same principle or is it

不同之处在于我们不再组建团队。

It's different in that we're not building teams anymore.

因此你是在社区内以个人身份工作，但无法组建团队。

So you are working as an individual within the community, but you're not able to build a team.

因为我们发现这正是之前犯错的地方——少数人赚取了大量利润

Because we found that that's where some of the mistakes were made, where you had a few people who were earning a lot of money

很多传销模式就是这样，他们通过招募下线来赚取大量佣金。

and That a lot of MLM thing, like then they're making all this commission money based upon the people that they recruited.

顺便说一句，整个企业界都是这么运作的。

Which, by the way, is how the entire corporate world works.

我认为传销确实受到了不必要的污名化。

And I do think that MLMs get a really bad rap unnecessarily.

传销行业的问题在于——现在有些特别恶劣的违规者（虽然我该点名但就不提了）——他们过度承诺却无法兑现。

Part of the problem with the MLM business, and there are some really bad offenders out there right now who shall remain nameless, although I should name them, but they over promise and under deliver.

他们会说'嘿Rich，给我1000美元，我教你赚1万'。

They say to you, Oh, Rich, if you give me $1,000 I'm gonna show you how to make 10.

这就是这个行业出问题的地方。

And that's what went wrong with that industry.

但现实情况是，这个行业主要由一群出色的年轻女性组成，她们相信产品并努力谋生。

But the reality of the situation is it's mostly a group of pretty amazing young women, all women, who they believe in the product and they're trying to earn an income.

我们却因为她们组建团队而看不起她们，可这不正是企业架构的运作方式吗？

And we look down on them for building teams, and yet that's exactly how the corporate structure works, right?

CEO的薪酬远高于初级职位的员工。

The CEO is making more than the person who's in an entry level position.

CEO一周工作七天，每天20小时。

The CEO is working 20 fourseven.

在多层营销业务中，初级职位的人可能每周只工作一到三小时，对他们来说这更像是个有趣的副业。

The entry level position in MLM business is probably they're probably working one to three hours a week and it's a fun sort of side project for them.

我认为根据他人的销售业绩获得报酬是可以接受的。

And I think that it's okay to be paid on other people's sales in my opinion.

对此我没有任何异议。

Like I don't have any issue with that.

不过当我重新担任CEO后，发现一个具有挑战性的现象：有些人曾努力工作过一段时间，但后来有一部分人（并非全部）不再经营业务，却享受着他人劳动的成果。

What what I what I found challenging though at the end when I came back in as CEO is what I saw were that people worked really hard for a while, and then there were a group of people, not all of them, but a group of people that were no longer working the business but were enjoying the fruits of everyone else's labor.

这可不是企业界的运作方式。

And that's not how the corporate world works.

你是知道这一点的。

You know this.

比如，你的奖金是基于你今年的表现，而不是六年前的业绩。

Like, you're paid, your bonus is paid on what you did this year, not what you did six years ago.

如果你表现不佳，就会被解雇。

And if you're not performing, you get fired.

遗憾的是，我们当时的情况是，我们支付了大量资金给那些已经不再积极经营业务的人。

And unfortunately, I wanted a situation, we were paying so much money out to people that were no longer actively doing the business.

我希望实现民主化分配，让那些只做少量销售的人能获得更多收入，而不是让大量资金集中在少数人手中。

And I wanted to democratize, to put more money into the hands of the person that was doing a little bit of selling rather than a lot of money into a few people's hands.

还有哪些不同之处？

What else is different?

我是说，技术已经发生了很大变化。

I mean, technology has changed quite bit.

但其中一个主要的不同点是，我们正在推出这项改革——因为当初上线时算是软启动，我一直称这段时期为学习季。

So one of the main things though that is different, and we're rolling this out because when we launched, it was sort of a soft launch and I've been calling this a season of learning.

你们是什么时候正式上线的？

When did you officially launch?