《高雅艺术的杂工：汤姆·萨克斯谈创造力为何是敌人，天赋为何被高估，以及定义人生的纪律》

像我父亲这样的人，渴望成为《美国吉普罗》里的理查德·基尔，会从曼哈顿坐火车到纽约的巴尼百货，购买乔治·阿玛尼的衣服。

And people like my father, who wanted, who aspired to be like Richard Gere in American Gigolo, took the train in from Manhattan to Barneys, New York and bought Giorgio Armani clothes.

而乔治·阿玛尼因此成为了一个庞大的国际品牌。

And Giorgio Armani became a gigantic international brand.

他开的奔驰SL敞篷车以及整个风格，对于那一代人来说，成为了雅皮士文化的真正象征，堪称终极雅皮士穿搭。

And the aspiration of the Mercedes SL convertible that he drove and the whole style was was for that generation, a real icon of what became yuppie culture, like the ultimate yuppie uniform in the whole style.

还有什么人比理查德·基尔更能代表这些价值观——奢靡、魅力、谋杀与阴谋呢？

And who's sexier than Richard Gere to represent those values and decadence and glamour and murder and intrigue and all of that stuff.

所以，那就是我的成长背景。

So that was kind of where I came from.

随后不久，在1984年，我接触到了我真正认同的唯一一场草根艺术运动——当时美国的硬核朋克场景，它强烈反消费主义，像Dead Kennedys这样的乐队所传递的价值观，深刻影响了我，让我摒弃消费主义，不再通过消费品来定义自我，随后我又接触了自由艺术教育和马克思主义。

And then shortly after in 1984, I was exposed to really the only grassroots art movement that I've been really connected with, well, at the time was the American hardcore punk scene, which was very anti consumerist and the values of like the dead Kennedys perhaps were the most impactful about eschewing consumerism and eschewing the idea of finding our identity through our consumer products, followed by liberal arts education and Marxism.

因此，我的身份认同在两者之间来回摇摆：一方面我通过滑雪板和滑板上的品牌标签来寻找自我，因为那具有吸引力。

And so it kind of wove, broke both back and forth where I would find my identity with a kind of labels on my skis and skateboards and because it was aspirational.

你想要一双运动鞋，好能像迈克尔·乔丹那样打篮球；或者想要一块滑板，好能像马克·冈萨雷斯那样滑板，你渴望得到它们，这就是所谓的关联价值——就像理查德·基尔的衣服、詹姆斯·邦德的手表一样。

You wanted a pair of sneakers so you could play basketball like Michael Jordan or a skateboard so you could skate like Mark Gonzalez, and you'd want to get those, as it's called the associated value, you know, the clothes of Richard Gere, the wristwatch of James Bond.

然后我摒弃了这一切，在你搬去纽约的那段时间——八九年到九一年左右——我在巴尼纽约公司做橱窗设计师，穿着朋克风格的衣服，开始接触到赫尔墨斯、香奈儿和马丁·马吉拉的美，并从中看到了这些品牌的价值。

And then rejecting all of that And then sort of finding my way back in New York City around the time that you moved there, 'eighty nine, 'ninety one, working at Barneys New York as a window display artist, wearing punk clothing, being exposed to seeing the beauty of Hermes and Chanel and Margiela and seeing like virtue in those things.

甚至我记得，有一次我去了索霍区格林街的斯蒂芬·斯普劳斯专卖店，看了一段关于明尼特曼乐队的视频，他们穿着在旧货店买的法兰绒衬衫，和我当时穿的一模一样，但接着我看到一件售价600美元的法兰绒衬衫，我当时真的困惑了，花了好几年才慢慢理清这其中的含义。

And even seeing, I remember being really confused going to the Stephen Sprouse boutique in Soho on Green Streets and watching a video of the Minutemen who were wearing flannel shirts that they'd bought in the thrift shop, just like I was wearing in that moment, but then seeing a $600 flannel And I didn't, I was really confused and it took me years to just kind of unpack that.

但我当时并不明白，这其实就是文化挪用——斯蒂芬·斯普劳斯在窃取那些朋克青年为了摆脱消费主义而创造的酷感。

But I didn't understand that that was cultural appropriation, that Stephen Sprouse was stealing the cool from the punk kids who were doing this to be free of that.

或者如果你追溯它们的起源，那些人根本没钱。

Or if you go back to their origins, they didn't have any money.

所以他们用安全别针别住衣服，把这种窘迫转化成了一种美德，而不是让一个别针值一百美元。

So they were using safety pins to pin up their clothes and made that a virtue instead of having one safety pin have a 100.

这种行为成了一种真正发自内心的时尚姿态。

And it became a fashion, a gesture authentically.

所以这些就是我所接触到的一些东西，它们截然不同。

So these are kind of some of the things that I was exposed to, and they're very, very different.

我认为对我而言最大的突破，是我终于能够融合这两种视角。

And I think the kind of big breakthrough for me was when I was able to synthesize both perspectives.

我喜欢香奈儿让我妻子看起来非常优雅，但它的广告却严重加剧了她的身体畸形焦虑，这令人反感。

Like I love the way Chanel makes my wife look really elegant, but it's disgusting how its advertising contributes to her body dysmorphia.

买这条裙子，你就能得到那个男人，就像这个模特一样，你就会幸福。

And buy this dress, you'll get the man, you know, look like this model and you'll be happy.

广告中的所有谎言都极其恶心和消极，但与此同时，这些物品确实很漂亮。

All the lies of advertising is really disgusting and negative, but at the same time, things look beautiful.

我喜欢高品质的东西，因为它们代表了在材料和工艺上毫无限制。

And I love high quality things because they represent no limits to materials and construction.

高级定制的承诺就是，真正杰出的作品是像艺术品一样制作的。

That's the promise of couture, is that the really great things are made like art objects.

如果你看到一件高级定制礼服，它的选择和可能性，与我所做的并无不同。

And if you see a couture dress and the options and the possibilities are, that's no different from what I do.

即使是一件制作精良的阿莱亚成衣，在我看来，也与我的一件雕塑处于同一水平。

And even a ready to wear beautifully made piece of Alaya is at this, in my view, the same level as one of my sculptures.

这是一种不同的用途。

This is a different utility.

当我从事工业设计时，我总是努力践行最佳实践，让一双100美元的运动鞋也能展现出远超其价格的品质。

And when I work in industrial design capacity, I'm always trying to deliver best practices so that the $100 sneaker really can deliver like a, you know, something of much more cost.

这样你就能与自己的物品建立更深的联系，或许就不那么容易随手把它扔进垃圾填埋场了。

And so you can feel a greater connection with your stuff so that maybe you're less likely to immediately throw it in the landfill.

你可能会更愿意把它放进洗衣机，换双新鞋带，或者因为这段与你同行的旅程而爱上它——哪怕它有了污渍，你也会选择修补它。

Maybe you're more likely to throw it in the washing machine or get a new pair of shoelaces and or you love it so you because it's been on a journey with you so you rock the stain or you repair it.

你是如何调和这种矛盾情感的？一方面被精美、美丽的事物所鼓舞和启发，另一方面却又对它们的生产方式、背后代表的意义以及其中的掠夺性感到厌恶甚至反感？

How do you live with those conflicting emotions of allowing yourself to be uplifted and inspired by, you know, something well made that is beautiful while also being repelled or repulsed by the means of production and what that represents and the predatory aspects of that.

这两种截然相反的感受如何共存并相互交融？你的作品正是这种内在冲突的表达。

Like how can those two things coexist and marinate together And your work is like an expression of that internal conflict.

是的，我完全要感谢法国和那些伟大的法国思想家，他们真正帮助我接受了这些矛盾。

Yeah, I mean, I give full credit to France and the great people, French the thinkers, because they really helped me come to terms with the contradictions.

我指的不只是七十年代的结构主义作家，比如罗兰·巴特和福柯，还包括更早的波德莱尔和超现实主义的开端，那时悖论与矛盾才是核心。

And I don't just mean like the structuralist writers of the seventies, like Roland Barthes and Foucault, but I mean going back to Baudelaire and the beginning of surrealism where paradox and contradiction are paramount.

牵着龙虾散步，用各种荒诞行为冒犯小资产阶级，这简直太搞笑了。

You know, walking a lobster on a leash and the tooleries to offend the petite bourgeoisie is hilarious.

用毛皮做杯子，想象用毛皮杯子喝水，那有多恶心、多麻烦，但你却看到一个美丽的杯子，或者把小便池当作喷泉展示，称之为‘喷泉’。

And what a pain in the ass and difficult thing, or making a cup out of fur and imagine drinking out of fur and the disgusting nature of that, but then seeing a beautiful cup or displaying a urinal as a fountain, calling it fountain.

这些艺术作品都蕴含着这种悖论。

These, All of these works of art have this paradox to them.

想象一下，在1918年，你去纽约军械库的一场高雅艺术展，看到一个小便池摆在桌上，有人却称它为‘喷泉’。

Imagine in 1918, going to a fancy art exhibition at the armory in New York City and seeing a urinal on a table and someone calling it fountain.

这件事还登上了《纽约邮报》的头版，人们震惊又愤怒，竟有人接受这种东西。

And it was on the front page of the New York Post, the shock and horror that this was accepted.

我认为今天也是如此。

And I think that's true today.

我认为这两者可以同时成立，而且这很重要。

I think that both can be true and it's important.

说到震惊和愤怒，你在职业生涯早期，其实也展现了某种顽皮和幽默感，这些作品中确实带有一种诙谐的轻盈感。

Speaking of shock and horror, so in this early phase of your career, I mean, like not for nothing also, like you're also speaking to like the cheekiness and there's a comedic levity also to some of these pieces that infuses your work.

它也很有趣，但与此同时，请小心

Like it's funny too But at the same like take care of

奢侈与必需品都会自行解决。

the luxuries and the necessities will take care of themselves.

放手去做吧。

Just go for it.

关于放手去做这个想法，如果我没理解错的话，你之前其实对这个想法很挣扎。

That idea of going for it, correct me if I'm wrong, but that was sort of, you were struggling with that idea.

你去了伦敦，我记得那时你还在本宁顿学院，你去伦敦是想学习建筑，考虑也许自己会成为一名建筑师。

Like you went to London, I think you were still in Bennington and you went to London to like study architecture and thought maybe I'll be an architect.

在某个时刻，你的老师或导师对你说：放下那种想要成为能为中产阶级家庭提供保障的体面人的资产阶级观念，开始做一名艺术家，过自己的生活。

And there was some point at which your teacher or mentor was like, let go of this bourgeois idea of like being somebody who's gonna provide for your middle class family and like start being an artist and live your life.

看起来他不仅鼓励了你，还让你意识到还有另一种生活方式，或许这种生活方式更贴近你高中时在Anthrax乐队演出中看到的那些音乐人——他们触动了你，改变了你对如何追求艺术理想的认知。

It seems like he not only encouraged you, but that he kind of opened up your eyes that there was another way of living that perhaps was more consistent with the bands that you were seeing at anthrax, you know, when you were in high school that spoke to you and changed your lens on like how you wanted to pursue your artistic sensibilities.

嗯，这差不多就是事情发生的经过。

Well, that's pretty close to the way it happened.

唯一不同的是，这听起来可能有点像对这段传奇故事的 cynical 调整，那就是我不仅想为自己从未拥有的家庭提供保障，成为社会中一名有贡献的中产阶级成员，我还觉得有责任让这个世界变得更好。

The only, and this might sound like a little bit of a cynical, like adjustment to the mythology and that's that I really wanted to provide not just for my family that I didn't have and be a bourgeois contributing member of society, but I also felt like it was my duty to make the world a better place.

当我住在英国塔彻斯的时候，那里非常破败，吃饭和度过一天都很艰难。

And when I was living in Thatchers, England, which was really broken, it was hard to eat and get through the day and stuff.

那段时间太绝望了，以至于后来不是教授，而是我对自己存在的挫败感让我醒悟。

It was so bleak that at one point, it wasn't a professor, it was my own frustration of my existence.

然后我心想，这个世界完蛋了。

Then I kind of said, this world is fucked.

我们正一路狂奔着走向地狱。

We're going to hell in a handbasket.

我决定尽我所能，好好享受生活。

I'm just going to have the best time I can.

也就是从那时起，我才真正认真对待我的艺术。

And that's when I really took my art seriously.

但神奇的是，我找到了通过工业设计让世界变得更美好的方式，通过我的艺术传递真正的可持续价值观——先帮助自己，再希望他人看到，我们如何拥抱矛盾，在辛勤工作中发现价值、美德与灵感。

But like sympathetic magic happens, I wound up finding ways of making the world a better place through industrial design and sharing the values of, real values of sustainability through my art and making, helping myself first, and then hopefully others see how we can embrace paradox and find value and virtue and inspiration behind hard work.

所以，通过后门，我最终回到了最初的理想，同时也变得非常中产阶级。

So through the back door, I kind of got to my original ideas and also became really bourgeois.

所以它奏效了。

So it worked.

他

He

你只是绕着外面走了一圈才到达那里。

just, you took that around the outside to get there.

我的意思是，你永远无法真正知道结果会怎样。

I mean, you never, that's the thing, you never really know how it's gonna turn out.

但你搬回了纽约，在你职业生涯的初期，当你还在摸索时，你做过许多奇怪的工作，比如在巴尼百货当清洁工，但你获得了机会，为他们设计橱窗，这成了一个转折点。

But you moved back to New York and in the early phase of your career, when you're trying to figure it out, like you had all these odd jobs, you were a janitor at Barney's, but you have this opportunity to step in to designing, you know, one of their windows And this becomes like an inflection point.

对于不了解的人来说，在八十年代末九十年代初，巴尼百货的橱窗展示可是件大事。

And just for people that don't know, like during this period of time in in the like late eighties, early nineties, like the Barney's like window displays were like a big fucking deal.

那时它们是世界上最好的橱窗展示。

They were the best window displays in the world at that time.

而且那也是一个不同的时代。

And also it was a different time.

我确信以前也有很棒的橱窗展示，但我们那时候没有互联网。

I'm sure there were great window displays, but we didn't have the internet.

所以像圣诞橱窗展示这样的东西，现在听起来可能很土，但我要提醒你们，我曾在那儿工作了很多年。

So things like a Christmas window display, it might sound really provincial now, but remember one year, because I worked there for many years.

有一年，我们做了一个关于音乐人王子的橱窗展示，那是一个非常出色的致敬作品。

One year we did like a window display about Prince, the artist, and it was a fantastic Prince tribute.

我还做过一个关于麦当娜的展示。

I did another one about Madonna.

这些可是巨大的立体场景，我们花了好几个月才完成。

Like, these are like giant dioramas that we spent months working on.

所以当时有这些商业艺术作品，人们真的会排队去观看。

So there were works of commercial art that people would really queue up and look at.

很多人都非常认真地对待这些展示。

There were people took it really seriously.

这确实是一种正当的艺术形式。

It was a valid art.

安迪·沃霍尔、罗伯特·劳申伯格和贾斯珀·琼斯都曾从事过这类工作，并因此开启了他们的职业生涯。

And Andy Warhol did them and Robert Rauschenberg and Jasper Johns, they all had careers doing that.

所以请你详细讲讲创作这个极具颠覆性的橱窗展示的经历。

So walk us through this experience of creating this very transgressive window display.

我想那应该是1995年。

So I think it was 1995.

而且你必须记住，当时正值艾滋病疫情最严重的时期。

And also you have to remember that we are in the height of the AIDS pandemic.

那是一个非常可怕的时代，我所在的社区，尤其是在巴尼百货公司的人们，正纷纷死于艾滋病，而《巴黎在燃烧》也刚刚上映。

It was a very scary time and people in my community, especially at Barney's, were dying of AIDS and Paris is burning had just come out.

那真是一段令人心碎且艰难的时光。

It was like a, it was a very heartbreaking and difficult time.

当时有一个名为‘红色橱窗’的节日橱窗项目，他们邀请了众多世界知名艺术家为节日橱窗创作作品，这些作品随后将被拍卖，所得款项将捐赠给位于第六大道的小红学校。

So there was a holiday window called Red Windows, which was, they asked all these world famous artists to make something to go in the holiday windows and that was gonna be auctioned off and the money would go to Little Red Schoolhouse, which is a elementary school on 6th Avenue.

因为我曾长期在西蒙·杜宁和亚当·迪格雷戈里奥手下辛勤工作，作为橱窗设计师，他们邀请我参与这次艺术展，尽管我当时完全默默无闻。

And because I'd worked so hard as a window display artist underneath Simon Dunin and Adamo DiGregario, they invited me to participate in this art show even though I was totally unknown.

我决定做一个圣诞马槽，因为这是圣诞橱窗。

And I decided to make, because it was Christmas windows, a creche.

于是马槽里是Hello Kitty扮演的婴儿耶稣，圣母玛利亚也是Hello Kitty，但穿着有六个乳房的性感胸衣，三位博士是巴特·辛普森，整个马槽放在麦当劳里面，全部用胶带制作。

And then the creche was Hello Kitty as baby Jesus, mother Mary was Madonna, was Hello Kitty, but as Madonna with the sex bustier with six breasts, the three kings were Bart Simpson's, and the creche was inside of a McDonald's and it was all made out of duct tape.

我尽了最大努力制作了一个真诚的圣诞耶稣诞生场景，它被称为Hello Kitty耶稣诞生场景。

And I really tried my hardest to make an earnest Christmas nativity scene, and it was called Hello Kitty nativity scene.

所以开幕之夜举行了两场派对。

So opening night happened and there were two parties.

一场是为所有精英艺术家举办的，比如布莱斯·马丁，那场在某人的家里举行。

One for all the elite artists, like Bryce Martin, who and that was at someone's house.

我也被邀请参加了那场派对。

And I was invited to that.

另一场则是为所有橱窗设计师举办的，在街上举行，我们喝着热巧克力。

And there was this other one for all, like, the window display artists that was on the street, we had hot chocolate.

第二天，信件开始涌来，死亡威胁、抗议、天主教联盟——一个反同性恋、试图禁止避孕套、对艾滋病疫情漠不关心的组织——开始针对我们，说我们亵渎了圣诞节。

And then the next day, the letter started coming in, the death threats, the protests, the Catholic League, which was an organization that was anti gay, that was trying to ban condoms, that was insensitive to the AIDS pandemic went after us and said that we were desecrating Christmas.

从我的角度来看，我只是在评论这个神圣节日的消费主义现象。

From my perspective, I was just commenting on the consumerism of this holy day.

当时收到了300封死亡威胁信。

And there were 300 death threat letters.

人们还打了电话过来。

People, got phone calls.

这真的很吓人。

It was very scary.

《纽约邮报》头版刊登了一篇题为《把马槽赶走》的文章。

And on the front page of the New York Post was Away with a Manger.

文章配图是那幅圣诞马槽场景，后来巴尼百货公司屈服了，撤下了作品，并向所有感到被冒犯的人刊登了整版道歉。

It was a picture of the nativity and Barney's capitulated and removed it from the show and offered a full page apology to all the people that were offended.

那也是第一次有人看到我的艺术作品。

And that was kind of the first time that anyone saw my art.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，首先，这简直是《纽约邮报》大做文章的完美契机。

I mean, first of all, it's a perfect setup for the New York Post to make a big stink.

然后天主教会又在当时纽约市文化动荡的背景下插了一脚。

And then for the Catholic church to insert itself into this in the midst of what was going on culturally in New York City at the time.

回头来看，很难理解巴尼公司为何会向这种压力屈服，并随后发表道歉。

It's hard in retrospect looking back to understand Barney's capitulation to that and the apology that followed.

但考虑到当时的时代背景，我的观点现在是怎样的呢？

But I think in the context of the time, I mean, I don't know what is your perspective on that now?

看起来他们似乎想利用当时那些潮流艺术家，却又不愿承担让这些艺术家如此真实和重要的核心信息。

Like it seems like they wanted to take advantage of, you know, kind of the happening artists of the time without having to take responsibility for the message that makes that artist so palpable and relevant.

我的意思是，当时我就是这么觉得的。

I mean, at the time, that's how I felt.

我现在还是这么觉得。

And I still feel that.

我依然认为他们没有为此承担责任。

I still don't think they took responsibility for it.

我的意思是，艺术是一份艰难的工作，我根本不是想去冒犯一群人。

I mean, art is a hard job and I wasn't going out to offend a bunch of people.

我根本没想过可能会冒犯任何人。

Wasn't even thinking about the possibility of offending anybody.

我只是在纯粹而真实地表达我的经历。

I was just making a pure and true expression of my experience.

那时候我看了很多《辛普森一家》，所以我的创作受到了第一季到第十季这种文化批判的影响。

And I'd been watching The Simpsons a lot, so I was informed by this kind of cultural critique in seasons one through ten.

我不记得那是哪一年了。

And we were I don't remember what year that was.

大概是第六季或者第五季吧。

It was probably like season six or something or five.

如果非要说有什么问题，那我可能在政治观点上确实借鉴了马特·格勒宁和那些造就了《辛普森一家》黄金年代的团队。

If anything, I could be accused of being a derivative in my political outlook of Matt Groening and the brain trust that created those years of The Simpsons when they were so good.

我记得当时感觉被背叛了，因为我全心投入了这件事，我相信巴尼的社区和我一起工作的那些人。

And I remember feeling really betrayed because I really put my heart into this thing and I believed in my community at Barney's and the people that I worked with.

我之前和之后都和他们合作了很多年。

And I worked with them before and after for years.

那是纽约市那些年的组成部分。

It was part of those years in New York City.

这既令人心碎，又有点可怕，甚至我家人也生气了。

And it was heartbreaking and also kind of scary that, but people even in my family were mad.

他们说我缺乏尊重，而我确实没有，尊重并不是我的优先考虑，我认为对最高级别的亵渎，也许复活节更重要，对吧？

They said that I wasn't respectful to, which I wasn't, that wasn't a priority to be respectful to the degradation of the highest, I guess Easter is a bigger deal, right?

因为那是复活，但耶稣的诞生在基督教中也是件大事。

Because it's the resurrection, but the birth of Jesus is a pretty big deal in Christianity.

所以我们才会在圣诞节买到凯莉包、911纪念品和运动鞋。

And that's why we get Kelly bags and nineeleven's and sneakers on Christmas.

是的。

Yeah.

但这件事让你在当时成了纽约的新锐叛逆艺术家。

But this puts you on the map as like New York's new bad boy artist at the time.

难道不是吗？

Does it not?

我不知道。

I don't know.

那不是一夜之间发生的，但大约一年后我举办了第一次展览，在一家名为莫里斯·希利画廊的画廊，那是切尔西最早的画廊之一。

It wasn't like that overnight, but I did my first exhibition about a year later and at a gallery called Morris Healy Gallery, which is one of the first galleries in Chelsea.

我之后的展览也在那里举办。

And I did my next exhibition there.

但这是一个渐进的过程，不过说实话，我觉得人们注意到了，而且我很幸运，我第一件被人看到的艺术品是我花了很多时间创作的。

But it's a gradual, but yeah, I mean, I think people paid attention and I guess I'm kind of lucky that my first piece of art that people saw was something that I put a lot of time into.

是的。

Yeah.

这本质上只是一种批判。

It's essentially just a critique.

就像你只是点出了事物的本质。

Like you're just calling out like what it is.

就像是，圣诞节不过是一场资本主义驱动的疯狂抢购，我们每年都在遵循这个仪式，而这一切都是由我们的消费冲动所推动的，代价却是忽略了它背后真正的起源故事，而这其实并不是什么革命性的观点。

It's like, okay, Christmas is this just capitalistic kind of like mad rush and this ritual that we all kind of like follow every single year is being driven by our consumer impulses at the cost of the sort of real origin story behind it, which isn't exactly like a revolutionary idea.

不，但如果你回过头想想，如果你重视基督教，比如上帝之子的诞生，这可是你信仰的核心神话。

No, but if you think back about it, if you care about Christianity, like God's son being born, and that's like your main, like, faith myth.

这是一件大事。

That's a big deal.

但我感觉从来没有人谈论这部分。

But I don't think that anyone ever seems to talk about that part.

他们只关注那些商品。

And they're just into the stuff.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这正是你成长的环境。

Which is the way that you were raised.

我的意思是，大卫·福斯特·华莱士曾说过，我们每个人都在崇拜某种东西，而消费主义本质上已经成为了我们的世俗宗教。

I mean, David Foster Wallace, he said something like, we all worship something and essentially like consumerism has become our secular religion.

是的。

Yep.

是哪个

Was Which

这是一个核心主题，也是你作品中的主要主题。

is a core, that's like the theme of that piece and essentially so much of your work.

它并涉及

It And speaks to

是。

is.

是的，它仍然是。

It Yeah, still is.

在那之下，是故事讲述的力量，因为当你看到——无论是蒂芙尼盒子那种特定的蓝色，还是耐克的勾形标志，或者任何能触动你的东西时，那种感觉无可替代。

And so beneath that is this idea of the power of storytelling, because when you, there is nothing like when you see, whether it's that specific color of blue on a Tiffany box or a Nike swoosh or, you know, pick whatever lights you up.

这种象征符号竟能引发如此强烈的情感共鸣，真是令人惊叹。

Like it's amazing how that iconography can communicate such an exponential emotional response.

我们在人类大脑中将它视为一种值得向往的东西，渴望拥有它，并因此愿意花钱，自我欺骗地以为只要拥有它，就能体现那种图标试图向我们传达的理想。

We associate it in our human brains as something aspirational that we want to embody and it causes us to spend money in order to get it, deluding ourselves that if we have it, that we will then be able to kind of embody the ideal of what that iconography is trying to communicate to us.

没有任何其他东西能与之相比。

And there's nothing else like it.

它在实现这种影响方面具有如此强大的力量。

Like it is so powerful in its ability to do that.

仅仅一种颜色或一个简单的微小符号，就能对单个人和整个文化产生如此深远的影响。

Just a color or a simple tiny symbol can have that impact on a single human being and on culture writ large.

这是一种魔法。

It's a form of magic.

这种魔法类似于交感魔法。

That form of magic is a cousin of sympathetic magic.

称之为——

Call it-

但你还没定义什么是交感魔法，因为这可是关键点。

That's point you haven't defined sympathetic magic though, because this is like a key piece.

我会的，但首先我想定义另一个有点复杂的术语，叫关联价值，我们刚才提到过，就是詹姆斯·邦德的手表，对吧？

I will, but first I just want to define another term that's a little complicated called associated value, which we talked about a minute ago, which is James Bond's wristwatch, right?

或者一双鞋，我一直觉得最典型的例子是Air Jordans，对吧？

Or a pair of, I always think the ultimate is a pair of Air Jordans, right?

因为它们是篮球鞋，和迈克尔·乔丹穿的是同一款。

Because they're basketball sneakers and they're the same ones that Michael Jordan wears.

如果你穿上它们，你就能打球。

And if you wear them, you can play.

广告的承诺是，你也能像那个时代最顶尖的球员一样打球。

The promise of advertising is that you get to play as well as the best player of his time.

这是一种魔法的形式，因为你买的是这种关联性。

And that's a form of magic because you're buying the association.

就连迈克尔·乔丹本人也有一些类似的习惯。

And even MJ had things like that that he would do.

比如他会穿特定颜色的袜子，或者两双袜子，因为他对自己的小腿太细感到不自信，或者红黑配色给他带来了视觉上的力量感，让他感觉更强大、更自信。

Like he would wear his special colored socks or two pair of socks because he was insecure about his calves being skinny or whatever little or the red and the black gave him color, helped him feel more powerful and confident.

作为一名专业的艺术家、运动员或其他任何身份，你都会有一些对你而言有特殊意义的小仪式。

And being a pro artist or athlete or whatever, you have your little rituals that mean something to you.

如果这些仪式能带来一点点帮助，那就已经很多了，因为优势就在于你需要抓住每一个可能的微小优势，因为你已经竭尽全力了。

And if they work a little, that's a lot because the advantage is you just need to have every little advantage you can because you've done everything possible.

所以，如果袜子颜色对你很重要，为什么不重视它呢？

So why not care about your sock color choice if it matters?

这就是关联价值。

That's associated value.

我是不是该直接谈谈交感魔法？

And should I just try and talk about sympathetic magic?

交感魔法有两个定义。

So sympathetic magic has two definitions.

第一个是，我

The first one, I'm

不太确定

not sure

无论是第一种还是第二种，都是基于接近性。

if it's the first or the second, is is proximity.

所以，偷走你未婚妻的一缕头发，向它祈祷，让她爱上你。

So, steal lock of your betrothed hair, pray to it so they fall in love with you.

吃掉对手的心脏，以获取他们的力量。

Eat the heart of your adversary to assume their power.

这就是接近性，也就是 proximity。

That's proximity, it's closeness.

另一种是通感魔法，稍微复杂一些，类似于‘你建了，他们就会来’，或者巫毒娃娃、还愿物。

The other one, the sympathetic magic, that is a little more complicated, and that's more like build it and they will come, or a voodoo doll, or an ex voto.

制作一个你病痛手臂的模型，把它交给你的宗教从业者，让他们帮你找到向这只手臂祈祷的方法，相信你就能康复。

Build a model of your ailing arm, bring it to your religious practitioner who helps you find ways of praying to that arm, believing that you will heal.

如果你不相信自己会康复，你就不会康复。

If you believe you will not heal, you will not heal.

你会生病并死去。

You will get sick and die.

如果你相信自己会康复，你也许真的会康复。

If you believe that you will heal, you might heal.

而有可能实现某件事、有可能康复，这远比不康复要好得多。

And the idea of possibly achieving something, possibly healing is infinitely better than not healing.

据我所知，相似魔法的起源是在二战后的巴布亚新几内亚，当时一些传教士和人类学家来到当地，研究使用石斧的原住民，而他们带来了铁斧并进行了交换。

So the origin of sympathetic magic, as I know it, is it was after World War II in Papua New Guinea when some evangelists, anthropologists came to study some Aboriginal folks who were using stone axes and they came with, and the anthropologists and the missionaries came with iron axes and they traded.

原住民问：‘你们那些用丙烷驱动的金属盒子是怎么回事？你们打开它，食物就会从里面出来？’

And the Aboriginal people said, well, what about those metal boxes that you have that are powered by propane and you open it and food come out of them?

他们回答：‘那些东西是从天上来的，通过空投物资降落的。’

And they said, well, those come from the sky, from cargo parachutes.

这种现象被称为‘物资崇拜’。

And it's called cargo cult is what this is called.

他们又问：‘为什么那些飞机不能在这里降落？’

And they said, well, why can't those planes land here?

或者，你们获取物资的那些船，为什么不能在这里靠岸？'

Or those ships that you get stuff from, why can't they land here?

他们说，因为我们没有跑道，大型船只需要大的码头。

And they said, well, because we don't have runways and you need big docks for big ships.

他们说，那我们就自己建。

And they said, well, we'll just build them.

人类学家笑了，说你们不可能建出跑道，飞机也不会在上面降落。

And the anthropologists laughed and said, you're not gonna build runways and they're not gonna land on them.

但当地人真的建了跑道和控制塔，人类学家们前来不是为了降落，而是来考察这些控制塔和跑道，并惊叹：哇，他们把我们的方法当作一种宗教式的魔法复制了。

But the local guys built runways and they built control towers and anthropologists came not to land on them, but to check out these control towers and runways and say, wow, they are copying our methods as a religious form of magic.

果然，货机带来了什么？

And sure enough, what did the cargo planes bring?

他们带来了铁斧、丙烷驱动的冰箱、衣服和各种西方商品。

They brought iron axes, they brought propane powered refrigerators and clothes and all this Western goods.

所以，关于魔法，任何形式的魔法，结果都不总是如你所愿。

So not the thing about magic and any kind of magic, it doesn't always come out the way you intend.

但相似魔法是一种基于信念去构建事物的方式，因为你相信某件事。

But sympathetic magic is a way of building something out of faith because you believe in something.

而这正是这本书中所有内容的来源——都源于信念。

And that's what everything in this book, it's all out of faith.

但结果并不总是如你所愿。

But it doesn't always come the way you intended.

比如，我从未想过，通过建造那个东西，我的艺术事业会腾飞。

Like I didn't expect my art career to take off by building that.

我只是想做点什么，因为我有机会参与自己文化中的这件事，并带着爱去完成它。

I just wanted to make the, I had an opportunity to participate in this thing in my culture and do it with love.

我为这件艺术品倾注了百分之百的心血。

And I gave a 100% to this art piece.

那么，我是否希望拥有画廊，希望我的作品能在画廊和博物馆展出，就像我现在这样？

And then did I want to have a gallery, a career showing in galleries and museums like I have now?

当然希望。

Of course I did.

我从未想过这会成为我的道路。

I didn't understand for a second that that would be the path.

那不是我的本意。

That wasn't my intention.

只是始终如一地工作，塑造你想要的世界，过上你想要的生活。

It was just always do the work and make the world the way you want it to be, make your life the way you want it to be.

你可能会成功，也可能会在尝试中失败，但关键在于你所做的工作，谁也无法剥夺你的这份努力，无论是我、你，还是任何人，核心就是工作。

And you may succeed or you may die trying, but the operative thing is the work that you do and you can't take that away from me or you or anyone, it's the work.

如果你说自己是宇航员，那你就是宇航员。

Translation, if you say you're an astronaut, you are an astronaut.

当汤姆·萨克斯说，我要建造自己的太空计划，我们要前往

And when Tom Sachs says, I'm gonna build my own space program and we're gonna go

到

to

火星。

Mars.

这在某种程度上，就是你在实践同情魔法。

This is you practicing sympathetic magic on some level.

我就这么做

And I do that

为了什么？解释一下。

for- Explain that.

这完全是一样的。

It's exactly the same.

这是一个很好的联系，因为二十年后，我被邀请乘坐SpaceX去太空。

That's a great connection because twenty years later, I'm asked to go to space with SpaceX.

我被邀请参加登月任务。

I'm asked to go on a lunar mission.

是吗？

Oh, is that right?

是的。

Yeah.

我被邀请担任非正式的驻地艺术家，所以这个

I'm asked to be the unofficial artist in residence at- So this

可能最终会在某个时候实现。

may actually pan out at some point.

我甚至不知道这是否是我的优先事项，因为我觉得我其实并不真的

I don't even know if it's a priority for me because it's like, I don't think I really

但这体现了你所追求之事的力量，是的，为了

But it speaks to the power of what you're trying Yeah, to

通过我的太空计划，我成为了NASA这一庞大科学机构中最顶尖、最精英的团队——火星2020年进入、下降与着陆团队的非正式驻地艺术家。

and through my space program, I became the unofficial artist in residence of the entry descent landing team of Mars twenty twenty at JPL, is the most pinnacle elite part of a gigantic scientific entity known as NASA.

我在那里与一些非常优秀的人共事。

I got to work with some great folks there.

我这里有一个JPL的便签本。

I have a JPL pad here.

我喜欢你的艺术之处在于，你创作了这些只能在展览或博物馆中看到的非凡作品，但同时你也能买到像JPL笔记本这样的东西。

What I love about your art is that like you have these incredible pieces that we can only see in installations or in museums, but you also, you can buy your own like JPL notepad.

所以，为什么这么做呢？为什么你要让我们能买到这些，汤姆？

So why is this so like, why do you make this available for us to buy, Tom?

所以我从JPL的托马索·里瓦利尼的桌上偷了这个。

So I stole that from Tommaso Rivalini's desk at JPL.

托马索·里瓦利尼是我非常要好的朋友，他发明了让火星探路者号弹跳着降落的气囊，以及用于降低探测器的空中吊车。如果你去查托马索·里瓦利尼，你会找到他申请的火星着陆装置、进入-下降-着陆装置的专利。

Tommaso Rivalini is a very close friend who invented the airbags that bounce Pathfinder down to Mars and the sky crane that lowers the, if you look Tommaso Rivalini up in, you'll see the patent for a Mars landing device, entry descent landing device.

他和凯文·哈农、亚当·斯特尔特纳以及格雷格·凡都成了朋友。

And he and Kevin Hannon, Adam Stealthner, and Greg Vane all became friends.

但我之所以从马佐的桌上偷走它，是因为马佐就像是我的迈克尔·乔丹。

But I stole that from Mazo's desk because Mazo is kind of like my Michael Jordan.

所以，Air Jordan的设计师廷克·哈菲尔德，迈克尔是他的灵感源泉，而托马索就是我的灵感源泉。

So Tinker Hatfield, the designer of the Air Jordan, sort of Michael was Tinker's muse and Tamazzo is my muse.

所以这双鞋，火星庭院鞋，是为托马索在帕萨迪纳的火星庭院工作而设计的，那里是喷气推进实验室。

So the shoe, the Mars yard shoe is for Tamazzo to work in the Mars Yard at the Pasadena, in Pasadena at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory.

同时也为了让他能前往华盛顿特区的总部，在走廊里悄悄溜达，争取下一次任务的资金。

And also for him to go to headquarters in Washington DC to sneak around the hallways to try and get funding for the next mission.

这双鞋适用于这两种现实。

It's a shoe for both of those realities.

所以，这个喷气推进实验室的便签纸，是地球上最聪明的头脑使用的纸张，对吧？

So that JPL notepad is the paper that the smartest minds on planet earth, right?

比如来自加州理工学院和喷气推进实验室的人，那些把我们送到其他星球的人。

Like the people from Caltech and JPL, the guys who land us in other worlds.

他们是喷气推进实验室里唯一真正懂得不依赖卫星就能导航到其他星球的人。

And they're the only people at JPL, they're really the only people that know how to navigate without satellites onto other worlds.

登陆月球其实挺简单的，因为我们有相应的工具，但登陆火星必须完全依靠自身能力和自主性。

Like landing on the moon's pretty easy because we've got tools to do that, but you have to be totally self sufficient and autonomous land on Mars.

这可是非常高精尖的东西。

It's like, it's pretty high end stuff.

而你就是用这种纸来构思这一切的。

And so that's the paper that you use to think it all up.

所以，如果你想拥有自己的太空计划，最好先拥有正确的工具。

So if you want your own space program, you better have the right tools.

对。

Right.

正确的铅笔和正确的道路。

The right pencil and the right path.

所以这个笔记本就是一个神圣的物品，你对它的使用，体现了人类精神中追求前所未有的壮举的深刻意义。

So this is this pad is then this is a sacred object in And your use That represents something very meaningful about the human spirit and the striving to do something never before done.

是的，而且每一页的背面都是空白的。

Yeah, and it's, I mean, on the back of each of those pages is blank.

你可以把它倒过来当普通纸用。

You can turn it upside on its regular paper.

正面是完全复刻了他们在JPL使用的纸张。

The front of that, and it's an exact reproduction of the paper that they have at JPL.

我在底部加了一些关于我工作室的小小信息，但可以在我的网店买到。

I added some little information at the bottom about my studio, but it's available on my web store.

我觉得大概十美元左右。

I think it's like $10 or something.

但我的意思是，通过这张纸，你拥有实现梦想的力量。

But my point is you have the power through that paper to fulfill your dreams.

我确实有。

I do.

我每天都用它来列待办事项。

And I use that every day for my to do list.

所以每天在看手机之前，我都会在这张纸上写写画画、列清单、做冥想，或者记录下我的梦境解析， whatever 我想写的东西。

So every day before I look at my phone, I write, do drawings and lists and my meditations and my dream interpretations or whatever I wanna write down on that paper.

我有三米长的活页夹，里面全是这种纸。

And I have three meters of binders of just that paper.

本集由BetterHelp赞助。

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

今天早上我反思了一下，我的生活，还有我孩子们、我们整个家庭的生活，如果没有我妻子，真的无法运转。

You know, I was reflecting this morning on how my life and really the life of my kids, our family altogether, it really just doesn't work without my wife.

她默默承担了太多。

She quietly carries so much.

我认为，这适用于所有女性，她们在无私地同时处理无数事务的同时，为他人提供支持，却往往被严重低估。

And I think this is the case for women across the board who go wildly underappreciated for their gift to hold space for others while selflessly spinning a zillion other plates at the same time.

这种情感劳动是真实存在的，它值得被关心，值得被支持，这就是为什么我对BetterHelp如此看好，因为它提供了一个停顿和反思你所扮演角色的空间，让你为自己的福祉留出余地。

And that kind of emotional labor is very real and it deserves care, it deserves support, which is why I'm so bullish on BetterHelp because it provides this place to pause, to reflect on the roles that you're playing and to make space for your own well-being.

BetterHelp将你与持有完全执照的治疗师连接起来，这些治疗师都遵循严格的行为准则。

BetterHelp connects you with fully licensed therapists who work according to a strict code of conduct.

他们首先会问几个简单的问题，以了解你的需求，并负责初步匹配，让你可以专注于自己的目标。

They start by asking a few simple questions to understand what you're looking for and they handle the initial matching so you can focus on your goals.

如果感觉不合适，你可以随时更换治疗师。

If the fit isn't right, you can switch to a different therapist at any time.

拥有超过30,000名治疗师，BetterHelp是全球最大的在线心理治疗平台，已为超过600万人提供服务，基于超过170万条客户评价，平均评分为4.9分（满分5分）。

With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the largest online therapy platform in the world, having served more than 6,000,000 people with an average rating of 4.9 out of five based on over 1,700,000 client reviews.

你的情感健康很重要。

Your emotional well-being matters.

立即注册，在betterhelp.com/richroll享受10%优惠。

Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/richroll.

网址是betterhelp.com/richroll。

That's better, help.com/richroll.

我们最小的孩子在离家三小时车程的高山上一个小镇上学。

Our youngest goes to school about a three hour drive from her home in this tiny little town up high in the mountains.

所以当我们送她回学校或接她回来休息时，虽然当天往返完全可行，但有时我喜欢在送她走之前或接她回来之后，在山上多待一两天，换个环境，亲近自然，写点东西，静静反思，享受片刻安宁。

So when we drive her back to school or we pick her up for a break, we could do the drive back and forth in the same day, but sometimes I like to stay up in the mountains for a day or two, either before I pick her up or after I drop her off, just to change my environment, connect with nature, do a little bit of writing and reflection and peace and quiet.

这个小镇的特别之处在于，森林里藏着许多温馨舒适的木制A字形小屋，我都能轻松在Airbnb上预订，完美地成为我的小避世之所。

And what's great about this little town is that there are all these fantastic little cozy wooden A frame homes hidden in the woods to choose from that I can book easily on Airbnb that make for this perfect little retreat.

我特别喜欢这些体验中真实的生活气息，突然意识到，我其实也可以为别人提供这样的体验。

I love the lived in authenticity of these experiences, and it occurred to me that I could actually provide that for someone else.

当你在Airbnb上出租自己的家时，你真正提供的不只是一个住宿地点，而是一种酒店无法提供的、专属某个地方的个性化体验。

That's what you're really offering when you host your home on Airbnb, not just a place to stay, but access to a personalized experience of a specific place in a way that no hotel can.

做房东是赚取额外收入的好方法，可以帮助资助你未来的旅行，同时你也在为别人提供你旅行时所追求的东西。

Hosting is a great way to earn some extra income that can help fund your future trips, but you're also giving someone else what you look for when you travel.

你的家可能比你想象的更有价值。

Your home might be worth more than you think.

立即前往airbnb.com/host，了解你能赚多少。

Find out how much at airbnb.com/host.

我们应该为不了解我们讨论内容的听众澄清一下。

We should clarify for the audience who doesn't know what we're talking about.

汤姆创建了自己的太空计划，并与他的工作室团队合作完成了许多装置作品。

Tom has created his own space program and done many installations with his creations and his collaborations with his studio team.

你设计了自己的登月舱和月球车。

You've created your own lunar lander, your rover vehicle.

你在这里制作了各种复杂的装置，重现了你心目中符合汤姆·萨克斯风格的太空计划模样。

You've got all sorts of elaborate fabrications here to recreate your version of what a space program would look like in the Tom Sachs aesthetic.

昨晚，我有机会观看了记录你所开展的火星太空计划项目的影片，当时你接管了纽约军械库，进行了一场完整的行动，将女性送入太空，让她们成为历史上首批登陆火星的女性。

Last night, I had the opportunity to go to a screening of a film version that chronicles the Mars space program project that you did where you took over the New York armory and it was an entire operation where you launch these women into space, land them on Mars to be the first women ever to land on Mars.

她们外出采集样本，然后返回。

And they go out and they take samples and they return.

这是一部令人难以置信的影片，由在这里的播客朋友范·尼斯塔德执导。

It's like an, it's an unbelievable thing that was directed by Van Nystadt, who's here, friend of the podcast.

这部电影非常出色，同时也是一件非凡的行为艺术作品。

It's quite a remarkable film, but also like just a remarkable piece of performance art.

这种艺术形式中蕴含的表演成分极其复杂精细。

Like there's a performance aspect to this aspect of your art that is so incredibly elaborate.

要达到那种被拍摄出来的效果，肯定花了好几年、好几年、好几年的时间。

Like it must have taken years and years and years to get that to where it was for that to be filmed in that way.

是的，我的意思是，2012年那次，我们早在2005年2月就开始做了，但早在1999年就已有相关草图了。

Yeah, mean, was 2012 and we had started working on it in 02/2005, but also drawings of it exist in '99.

而且我们至今仍在继续推进。

And we're still working on it.

我们已经完成了五次任务，分别前往月球、火星、木卫二、灶神星，甚至还去了一艘名叫‘无限号’的外星飞船。

We've done five missions, five major missions to the moon, Mars, Europa, Vesta, and we even went to, an alien spaceship called Infinity.

这正是那种玩世不恭的地方体现出来的时候。

And this is where like the cheekiness comes in.

为什么说它玩世不恭？

Why is it cheeky?

这是真实的。

It's real.

我的意思是，我们不用‘表演’这个词，而是说对我们的系统的现场演示。

I mean, we take, we don't use the word performance, we say live demonstration of our systems.

这可能看起来有点调皮，因为我们用纸板和胶带代替了煤油和钛合金之类的材料，但我们面临的问题和风险都是一样的。

It might seem cheeky because we use cardboard and duct tape instead of kerosene and titanium or whatever, but we have all the same problems and we have all the same stakes.

甚至在另一个NASA的时刻，宇航员登月时，曾有一个应急预案：如果上升引擎未能点火，因为当时对此存有疑问，宇航员将被困在月球上。

There's even a moment when in the other NASA where the astronauts landed on the moon and there was a contingency if the ascent engine did not ignite, because there was some question about that, that the astronauts would be marooned on the moon.

因此，尼克松聘请了威廉·萨菲尔撰写一篇演讲稿，以防宇航员被困月球。

So Nixon hired William Sapphire to write a speech in the event that they were stuck on the moon.

你可以上网搜索，这篇演讲稿是公开存在的。

And you can Google it, it's out there.

所以我请了一位尼克松的模仿者来录制这段演讲的视频。

And so I hired a Nixon impersonator to read that speech on video.

在任务控制中心的办公桌上，我们放着这段视频的DVD。

And in the desk at Mission Control, we have a DVD of that video.

这相当于对我们登陆小组、对我们宇航员的一种威胁：如果你们用Atari模拟器着陆失败，我们就播放这段视频。

That was kind of the threat to my landing crew, to my astronauts, saying, if you don't, if you screw up the landing with the Atari emulator, we're gonna play this video.

我雇的那位模仿尼克松的人模仿得实在太糟糕了，整个视频又尴尬又别扭，但他说的确实是我想用的原话，所以我并不想让任何人看到这段视频。

And the Nixon impersonator that I hired did such a terrible job of impersonating Nixon, and it's so awful and awkward, but it is the correct words that I didn't want anyone to see the video.

我不希望在我的艺术作品中播放那段尼克松、威廉·萨菲尔、阿奇赖特的视频。

I didn't wanna show a Nixon William Sapphire Archwright video in my art piece.

所以这一直是一种威胁。

So that was always kind of the threat.

而在这二十年里，每次现场演示，都没有人真正坠毁过。

And in doing this for twenty years now, no one has crashed in a live demo.

排练中摔过无数次，但至今还没人在演示中出过事。

Tons in practice, but no one's crashed yet.

对于那些已经完成过的人，我的意思是，你们真的会用到当年我们用过的那个雅达利手柄，屏幕上显示的就是登陆的视频游戏画面，你必须精准操作，否则就会坠毁。

So the landing for people that done, I mean, you'd literally have that Atari joystick that we And had when we were yeah, like you see the screen and it's the video game of the landing coming down and you have to do it just right or it'll crash.

而且

And

这很难。

it's hard.

这没那么容易。

It's not that easy.

这是宇航员们经常练习的项目之一。

And it's one of the things that the astronauts practice.

但它的价值在于，我们付出了极大的努力，将这些细节做到极致，使我们的体验变得真实。

But the value of this is that we work really hard to realize these details to such an extreme degree that the experience for us becomes real.

当你在进行现场演示时，顺便说一下，这些演示通常长达八小时。

And when you're in the live demonstration, and by the way, they're like eight hours long.

它们非常耗人，但你会暂时放下怀疑，并且事情是有风险的。

They're exhausting, but you suspend your disbelief and there are stakes.

我们曾经历过一些类似阿波罗十三号的时刻，比如我们在冰湖上钻孔时，钻头卡住了。

And we've had some Apollo thirteen moments where we're drilling into an ice pond and the drill got stuck.

当时托马佐·里维利尼和亚当·斯泰尔特纳在台上像阿波罗十三号那样大喊：‘用WD-40！’

And we had Tomazzo Rivlini and Adam Steltsner on stage screaming like Apollo thirteen style, like, use WD-forty on

他们真的请来了真正的喷气推进实验室人员。

They the actually had the real JPL people.

因为他们是朋友。

Because they're friends.

他们恰好坐在前排。

They happened to be in the front row.

来自旧金山Brightworks的吉韦图利，他们都大喊大叫。

And Gievertulli from Brightworks in San Francisco, they're all like screaming.

我们在争论该如何做这件事。

And we're arguing about how to do this.

钻头在冰里卡了整整两个小时。

And the drill was stuck in the ice for like two hours.

由于我们试图把钻头从冰里拔出来，现场演示多持续了两个小时。

And we, the live demonstration was two hours extra long because we were trying to get it stuck out of the ice.

这跟那些在树荫下修化油器、却不知道自己在做什么的人，争论如何让车启动没什么区别。

And it's no different than guys trying to change a carburetor underneath a shade tree, not knowing what they're doing, arguing about how to get the car started.

这只是一群朋友在争论如何解决这个问题。

It was just a bunch of friends arguing about how to solve this problem.

那种真实感和乏味感很重要，因为它不是表演，如果是表演，我们总会想办法让它更有趣，而正是这种非表演性让它对我们而言变得真实。

And the authenticity of that and the boringness of it, because it wasn't theater, if it was theater, we'd find a way to make it entertaining, made it real for us.

宇航员们穿着冷却服，身体变得很热，必须定期更换冷却服中的冰块和电池，以免在这些密闭服中窒息。

And the astronauts had cooling suits and they were getting hot and they had to have ice change in their cooling suits and batteries so that they wouldn't suffocate into these airtight suits.

这一切都为我们创造了让事物变得真实的机会。

All create opportunities for us to make the stuff real.

是的。

Mhmm.

我觉得我们小时候都看了很多《流言终结者》，亚当·萨维奇是我的好朋友。

I think we all grew up watching Mythbusters a lot, and Adam Savage is a really good friend.

在艺术中，只要一个想法是可能的、合理的，就足以传达这个理念了。

And the the not the idea that it is possible that it's plausible is enough in art to get the idea across.

我想起那位一生都在训练武术却从未打过架的武术家。

I mean, I think of the martial artist who spent his whole life training and never got into a fight.

然后有一天，他在一条黑暗的小巷里被一群歹徒包围了。

And then one day was surrounded by assailants in a dark alley.

他没有使用自己的武术，而是假装躲避，然后跑掉了。

And instead of using his martial arts, he just fake dodge and ran away.

多年后，他躺在病床上回想起那一刻，心想：天啊，我本可以运用我的武术，把那五个家伙揍一顿之类的。

And then years later he was on his deathbed contemplating the moment like, oh man, I could have used my martial arts and kick those five guys ass or whatever.

但事实上，他一生都是这门技艺的学生或老师。

But really what he was his whole life was a student or teacher of this discipline.

所以，如果你仔细想想，无论你是否乘坐SpaceX的飞船飞往火星，或者完成了所有训练，这些都只是漫长旅程中的几个瞬间。

So it doesn't really matter if you think about it, if you fly to Mars on a SpaceX mission or whatever, or you do all the training, That's just a few moments in the journey.

真正的旅程是所有的研究、体能训练、科学探索，以及为了不陪伴家人所做出的牺牲，还有所有的训练。

The journey is all the research, the physical fitness, the science, the sacrifices that you make to your family for not being there and all that training.

这才是真正的回报。

That's the reward.

而且

And

其中的合作精神。

the collaborative aspect of it.

我的意思是，作为这个工作室的艺术家，你不仅在创作艺术，还担任着年轻一代的老师和导师，并且与许多人保持着协作关系。

I mean, as an artist in this studio, like you are creating art, but you're also, you also serve as this teacher and this mentor for young people and you're in this collaborative relationship with a lot of people.

因此，从这个角度看，它具有多维度的特性。

So it's kind of multidimensional in that regard.

并不是每个人都只是来照着汤姆的意愿做事。

It isn't just like everybody's showing up and does what Tom wants.

这个生态系统中几乎有一种社区的氛围。

Like there's almost this community aspect to that ecosystem.

嗯，

Well,

工作室很棒，比我一个人单干要好得多。

the studio is great, it's better than what I could do by myself.

我的意思是，范和我为各种细节争论不休，我并不总是对的。

I mean, Van and I argue endlessly about details and I don't, and we have these wonderful arguments and I'm not always right.

我想赢下争论，就像每个人一样，但我只关心最好的解决方案。

I wanna win the argument like everyone does, but I only care about the best solution.

工作室最大的特权就是与比我更聪明的人一起工作，我们可以结合彼此的智慧，找到可能比我自己单独做出来的东西更真实的东西，这听起来很疯狂，对吧？

The greatest privilege of the studio is working with people who are smarter than I am and where we can use our combined intelligence to find something that's maybe even more authentic than just doing it myself, which sounds crazy, right?

但我们是一个社群。

But we are a community.

所以，如果这种社群的表达比我自己像文森特·梵高那样独自工作更真实的话。

So if it's an expression of the community that is more authentic than me just working alone like Vincent van Gogh.

你曾说过，这个工作室是你最伟大的艺术作品。

You've said that the studio is your greatest, greatest work of art.

我认为在很多方面确实如此。

I think in many ways that's true.

我的意思是，这些关系、这些人、这些搁架系统、书籍、磁带和其他材料的图书馆，维持这一切的秩序、保持流程顺畅并消除杂乱，一直是一场持续的斗争。

I mean, the relationships, the people, these shelving systems, the libraries of books and tape and other materials, it's an ongoing struggle to keep it all organized, keeping the flow and eliminating.

有些材料我真的不喜欢，比如石膏板。

There's some materials I really don't like sheet rock.

所以如果你生活中没有石膏板，那真的会很艰难。

So if you don't have sheet rock in your life, have to, it's really, it's tough.

事情会变得昂贵又古怪。

It gets things get expensive and weird.

我也不喜欢踢脚线。

I also don't like molding.

我也不喜欢紫色。

I also don't like the color purple.

所以，如果你剔除了生活中这些人人都有的基本元素，你的生活就会变得更加有趣和复杂。

So if you eliminate these kind of basic things that everyone has in their life, your life gets more, much more interesting and complicated.

是的。

Yeah.

它会成为这本书的一部分，你知道，我们甚至还没具体谈到这本书，但像《汤姆·萨克斯指南》这样的内容，就像你预期的艺术书中那样，有你作品的精美照片。

It'd be part of the book, which, you know, we haven't even really gotten into the book specifically, but like Tom Sachs Guide, like it is part like what you would expect in an art book with like beautiful photographs of your work.

但它实际上非常实用，因为你分享的是你的智慧和原则，以及你对生活和工作的看法。

But it's really very practical in the sense that you are sharing your wisdom and the principles that GERD like your perspective on life and your work.

因此，这本书具有功能性和实用性，这在普通艺术书中是找不到的，但这恰恰反映了你的艺术——因为你的艺术不仅关乎美学，也同样关乎实用性和功能。

And so there's a functionality and a utility to this book that you don't normally, you wouldn't find in a typical art book, but that speaks to your art because your art is about utility and function as much as it is about anything else.

书的最后还有一份资源术语表，甚至包括了我的调色板，比如这些是我喜欢的颜色，那些是禁止使用的颜色。

And in the back you have kind of this glossary of resources but you even have like your color palette and like these are the colors I like and these are the colors that are off limit.

这正好体现了那种偏执的客观性。

And like that gets to that kind of obsessive objective.

做事情有对错之分，也有我自己的方式。

Like there is a right way to do things and a wrong way to do things, and there's my way of doing things.

这本书包含了很多内容。

This book is a lot of things.

我其中一个初衷是把它当作一份工作指南，不仅针对我个人，也针对我和工作室共同完成的作品，以回答这个问题：这到底是什么？

And one of the things that I intended to be is a guide to the work, not just to me personally, but the work that me and the studio have been able to achieve collectively to answer the question of, what is this?

我们到底在做什么？

What do we do?

很多作品都源于我和范·尼斯塔特一起开始编写的《汤姆·萨克斯工作室手册》，它有点像艾米丽·波斯特指南，又有点像词典。

A lot of this work came out of a book that Van Nystat and I started called The Tom Sachs Studio Manual, which is kind of like a part Emily Post, part dictionary.

但我认为那本手册变得太复杂了。

But I think that got really too complicated.

我认为我们当时探讨的很多想法都融入了《 Spirited Man》和Vans的电影系列中。

I think a lot of those ideas that we worked on got into Spirited Man and Vans movie series.

但这本书真正旨在成为对所有作品的指南，里面包含了25篇我和霍威·卡恩共同撰写的论文，设计由崔叶珠负责。

But this is really a guide to all the work and there are 25 essays in here that I worked on with Howie Kahn and the design was by Yeju Choi.

书中讲述了我的创作过程。

There are stories of my process.

某种程度上，汤姆·萨克斯工作室手册中的某些理念也包含在这里，但它更侧重于我的动机和实现方法。

So in a way, like some of the ideas behind the Tom Sachs studio manual are in here, but it's really more about my motivations and methods to achieve.

还有一些我用来度过日常困境的小技巧，比如当我卡住时，我有时会停下来做个台灯。

And some of the tricks that I've used to get through the day, like when I'm really stuck, I sometimes just take a break and make a lamp.

这是因为台灯相对于雕塑来说，属于更基础的东西。

That's like one of the, because a lamp is like a lower order of thing opposed to a sculpture.

雕塑或绘画则属于非常高阶的艺术形式。

Sculptures or painting is really high.

台灯呢？你到底在做什么？

A lamp, what is it you do?

你拉一根绳子，灯就亮了；一把椅子，你坐上去就行了。

You pull a string and light comes out, A chair, you put your ass on it.

一幅画或一件雕塑，你做什么？

A painting or sculpture, what do you do?

你去体会它。

You contemplate it.

这可是件挺难的事。

That's like a pretty hard thing.

什么叫‘体会’？

Like what does contemplate mean?

但一盏灯能提供照明，用于吃饭、工作或创作其他艺术作品，它的实用性让它更容易理解，但依然存在雕塑性的方面和需要解决的雕塑问题。

But a lamp creates illumination for eating or working or making other art objects and its utility makes it easier to comprehend, but there are still sculptural aspects and sculptural problems to solve.

所以这就像一种方式，像是练习罚球或热身。

So it's just a way of like, it's like doing free throws or warming up.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你卡在某个问题上，比如设计一盏灯。

If you're stuck on problem, like build a lamp.

这就像你的一个职责。

That's like one of your roles.

这里有一整章讲的是这个原理。

And there's a whole chapter on how that works in here.

这就像是‘如果你一开始没成功，那就立刻放弃，去造一盏灯’。

And that's akin to if at first you don't succeed, give up immediately, build a lamp.

而且这里有一章讲我是怎么做的。

And there's a chapter on how I do that.

如果这部分算是一本自助书，我会说，有几件事对你在生活中寻找方向可能有帮助。

And if this part of this is a self help book, I would say like a couple of things might be useful to you finding something in your life.

我不是建议你照我的方法做，我强烈反对这么做，但如果你真想试试。

Not that you should, I highly recommend against doing it my way, but if you want to yourself.

你就是那种人，不管作品是什么，几乎都无所谓。

You're one of those people for whom it almost doesn't matter like what the piece is.

这一眼就能看出是你的风格。

Like it's so immediately identifiable as yours.

你的作品中有一种无法抹去的印记，你一看就能认出来，这就牵涉到真实性的概念。

Like there is, you know, there's just something indelible about your fingerprint on your work where you can see it immediately and identify it, which gets into this idea of authenticity.

这个词已经提过好几次了。

The word has kind of like come up a couple of times.

这是你人生三大准则之一。

It's one of your three rules for life.

所以我想花几分钟更深入地谈谈这一点，尤其是当我们正朝着人工智能的悬崖飞驰而去时，这不仅对艺术家或创意人士，对所有人来说都意义重大。

So I wanted to spend a few minutes talking a little bit more in-depth about that, particularly as we're kind of careening off the cliff of artificial intelligence and what that means, not just for artists or creative people, but for all of us.

你如何看待真实性，以及真实性的重要性，尤其是在数字时代，人工智能预示着什么？

How do you think about authenticity and the importance of authenticity, particularly in our digital age and kind of what artificial intelligence is auguring?

真实性就是一切。

Authenticity is everything.

我记得当我第一次和米基·德克勒成为朋友时，是因为我给他写了一封信，谈到了真实性，以及如何让军装风格变得时尚，还有这背后的难题，比如卡其裤或工装裤。

I remember when Mickey Drexler and I first became friends, it was because of a letter that I wrote to him about authenticity and making military clothes fashionable and the problem with that, whether it's khakis or cargo pants.

这开启了一场关于通过周围事物寻找自我身份的对话，至今仍在继续，对吧？

And it started a dialogue that continues to this day about finding your identity through the stuff around you, right?

我制作东西。

And I make stuff.

人们制作东西有三个原因。

There are three reasons people make things for.

精神性、感官体验和物质性。

Spirituality, sensuality, and stuff.

精神性关乎那些宏大的问题。

So spirituality is the big questions.

我们是孤独的吗？

Are we alone?

我们从哪里来？

Where do we come from?

我们死后会发生什么？

What happens when we die?

这就是宗教和科学所做的事情。

That's what religion and science do.

感官体验是攀登最高峰、飞向另一个世界、闻到香火的气息、在大教堂中感受到的敬畏以及回声让你感到渺小的声音，还有榻榻米或抹茶的触感与气味，这一切都是‘东西’。

Sensuality is climbing the highest mountain, flying to another world, the smell of the incense, the awe that you feel in a cathedral and the sound of the reverb that makes you feel small, the touch of, and the smell of tatami or of matcha and stuff is all the stuff.

大教堂本身、火箭飞船、你用来喝抹茶的茶碗、十字架，所有这些物品。

The cathedral itself, the rocket ship, the Chawan tea bowl that you drink the matcha from, the crucifix, all those things.

作为一个创造者，我制造东西，对吧？

And as a maker, I make stuff, right?

我不是詹姆斯·邦德，我是Q，那个制造所有酷炫小工具的人。

Like I'm not James Bond, I'm Q, the guy that makes all the cool gadgets and stuff.

但如果没有哲学基础，没有精神性，这一切都毫无意义。

But it doesn't mean shit without the philosophical underpinnings, without the spirituality.

如果你不相信上帝，就不会建造大教堂。

Like you don't make a cathedral without believing in God.

如果你不试图理解我们在地球上所做之事的意义，就不会建造飞船去探索其他世界。

You don't build a spaceship to go to other worlds without trying to understand the importance of reflecting on what we're doing here on earth.

这些可是重大的问题。

Like, these are big questions.

但尽管如此，作为个体，我们各自专精于这三大类别中的一个。

But nevertheless, as individuals, we specialize in one of these three categories.

对我而言，那就是制作东西。

And for me, it's stuff making.

当我接受并承认自己不是宇航员，而是负责规划这一切后勤的人时，我就能放下飞往太空的自我膨胀，转而专注于支持那些真正去太空的人，为他们构建精彩的故事，讲述这些故事，帮助人们理解其重要性。

And by coming to terms and accepting that I am not an astronaut, I am more the guy that figures out the logistics of all that, then I can let go of the ego trip of flying to space and concentrate on supporting those who do and building good storytelling for them and telling a story and help people to see the importance of it.

我们去火星，并不是因为把地球搞砸了，想通过殖民火星寻找新家园，而是为了更好地理解地球上的资源。

We don't go to Mars because we've fucked up planet earth and are looking for a new home by colonizing Mars, we go to better understand our resources here on earth.

火星是我们姐妹星球。

And Mars is our sister planet.

我们能在火星上看到地球可能面临的遥远未来。

And we can see in Mars a distant future of what could be on earth.

这就是科学所做的事——进行比较。

And that's what science does, it's comparative.

所有这些想说的是，我通过深入研究和理解自己来找到我的真实本性。

All that to say is that I find my authenticity by really studying and understanding who I am.

而随之产生的物品，正是我真实自我的表达。

And then the objects that come are an expression of who I am.

我想这可以追溯到童年时期，那时我总想融入群体，高中时穿着那种愚蠢的七分棒球T恤，领口有镶边，袖子是不同颜色，因为所有孩子都穿着这种衣服配工装裤，我总觉得自己像个傻瓜，但我还是想融入，因为我害怕被孤立。

And I think this goes back to early childhood stuff where I was always trying to fit in and in high school wearing those stupid three quarter length baseball t shirts, with a ringer neck and a different color on the sleeve because all the kids wore those in painter's pants and always feeling like such a douche, but like I wanted to fit in because I didn't want to be alienated.

我想成为社群的一部分。

I wanted to be part of the community.

经过多年的研究，我才逐渐找到自己的身份认同，不仅通过穿着让自己感到舒适，也通过艺术找到我想创造的东西、我想讲述的故事。

And it took years to find my own sense of identity through study to find ways of both dressing myself with clothes that I wear, but also finding an expression through my art of what are the kinds of things that I want to make?

我想讲述什么样的故事？

What are the stories that I want to tell?

什么才是真实的？

Like what's authentic?

在这个过程中，我经历了各种失败和拒绝，但学会了接纳这些负面情绪，去支持我内心真正相信的东西。

And along the way, finding all kinds of failure and rejection, but learning to tolerate those bad feelings to support what I know is true to me.

有那个

There's the

制造者，也就是你所说的，汤姆·萨克斯多重人格中主要的、主导性的角色。

maker who is the, you know, kind of primary leading, you know, character in the multiplicity of Tom Sachs, you know, personalities.

但我觉得，在你的作品中，我看到的是一种深深的敬畏与灵性，因为你制作的东西几乎都像某种祭坛。

But there's also, I think what I see in your work is a deep reverence and spirituality because the things that you make are almost invariably like some form of altar.

这些物件具有一种神圣的品质，体现了仪式感，比如这些工作台或整理空间的理念。

There is a sacred quality to these objects that speaks to the ritual, like these workstations or the idea of organizing your space.

这一切都是为了创造一个超越性的体验环境。

Like this is all about creating an environment for a transcendent experience.

无论是你工作的自律，还是更宏大的目标——我们要去火星，这一切都与同一个理念相连：我们应当对日常使用的工具保持更崇敬的态度，这些工具是我们想象力、自律和日常工作的延伸。

And whether that's like the discipline of your work or the higher ambition of we're going to Mars, it's all of a piece with this idea that we should have a more reverent relationship with the extensions, you know, that we use every single day as an expression of our imagination and our discipline and our daily work.

你有这些音箱，还有那些橱柜，以及火星计划中展示的电视机。

You have these boom boxes and you have these, you know, kind of cabinets and the display of televisions for the Mars program.

所有这些事物，本质上都是各自独立的圣殿。

Like all of these things are, they're sort of cathedrals in their own right.

我觉得花了一段时间才找到真正朴实无华的东西。

I think it's taken a while to find something that's totally unpretentious.

我做的所有东西，都可以在博物馆买到、看到，或者在书里见到，但要创造出属于我自己的真实作品，听起来简直荒谬。

Like all the things that I make, can go buy or visit in a museum or see in a book, but finding a way to make my own authentic one is kind of preposterous.

如果用语言来描述这本书里的每一件东西，听起来可能很傻或很基础，但通过执行和创作，这些作品对我，也许对其他人，产生了某种崇高的共鸣。

Like everything in this book, if you're to describe it in words, sounds kind of dumb or remedial, but through the execution, the work, resonates for me and maybe others with kind of with like the sublime.

这听起来可能像自夸或炫耀，但当它成功时，它确实奏效了。

Like that might sound like a brag or a flex, but that's when it's successful, it works.

但只有当你真正诚实地面对自己的动机时，才能做到这一点。

But it only comes through being really honest with what your motivations are.

所以当我被问到我的工作室是最好的艺术品时，那是因为我花了大量时间整理工具，这样当灵感来临时，我可以立刻行动，抓住大鱼。

So for me, when you ask like, that my studio is the best artwork, it's because I spend so much time organizing my tools so that when inspiration strikes, I can just go for it and catching the big fish.

大卫·林奇说过，当你不知道该做什么时，就去整理你的颜料，这样当灵感来临时，你就不必花时间去商店买红色颜料。

David Lynch talks about when you don't know what to do, organize your paint so that when inspiration strikes, you don't have to take time, go to the store and buy red paint.

它就在你的左手边。

It's just there with your left hand.

你用右手拿起工具，直接应用到画布上，因为灵感和缪斯转瞬即逝。

You put in your right hand, you apply it in the canvas because the muse, the inspiration is so fleeting.

所以当你不知道该做什么，陷入创作瓶颈时，花点时间整理你的东西，这有点像

So when you don't know what to do, when you've got a writer's block, spend time organizing your stuff, it's kind of like

你所谓的做法就是一直保持整理。

Always be gnolling is your version of that.

解释一下这是什么意思。

Explain what that means.

所以‘gnolling’就是

So gnolling is

整理你的工具。

just organizing your tools.

把所有东西整齐地排列成90度角或平行线，让它们看起来干净有序，这样你的思维就不会被眼前的杂乱所困扰。

So lining everything up in 90 degrees or parallel lines so that it looks clean and organized so that your mind isn't caught up with the mess in front of you.

有时候，所谓的‘整理’根本不是打扫卫生，而是一种冥想，与你的环境融为一体。

Sometimes knowing isn't really cleaning up at all, but it is a form of meditation and becoming at one with your environment.

而且我认为这样做总是值得的。

And think it's always worth doing so.

我的意思是，你可以称之为强迫症，也可以称之为拖延，或者叫热身。

I mean, you could call it OCD or you can call it procrastination or you can call it warming up.

比如，我就这么做。

Like, I I do this.

我很注重这一点，而且这背后是有原因的。

Like, I am meticulous about this and and there's a reason for it.

所以我跟我儿子打了个赌，因为我们正在拼一个乐高套装，我不知道你最近有没有拼过乐高。

So I made a bet with my son because we're building a Lego set and I don't know if you've built a Lego set recently.

孩子还太小，

Not old enough,

我的孩子已经大了。

my kids are older.

总会有那么一刻，你会想：该死，那些混蛋居然没给我配一块我需要的黑色小积木。

Always this moment where you're like, fuck, those motherfuckers didn't include a black one by one tile that I needed for this move.

我知道他们没放进去，而且我到处都找不到。

I know they didn't include it and I can't find it anywhere.

而且他们从来不会漏掉。

And they never miss it.

你只是放错地方了。

You just misplaced it.

所以我跟他做了一个约定。

So I made a deal with him.

我说，他跟我说：爸爸，我找不到这个一比一的积木块。

I said, he's like, dad, I can't dada, dad, I can't find this one by one tile.

我说：你到处都找过了吗？

And I said, have you looked everywhere?

他说：是的。

And he said, yeah.

我看了看桌子，一片狼藉。

And I looked in the tables just array a big mess.

我说，它就在桌子上，你什么都知道。

And I said, it's there on the table, know everything.

你会找到的。

You'll find it.

他说，没有。

And he said, no.

我说，好吧，如果你什么都知道，而它又不在那儿，我就给你一千美元。

And I said, okay, if you know everything and it's not there, I'll give you a thousand dollars.

我当时真的有点吓坏了，因为我也没看到它。

And I was really, I was kind of like shitting myself a little bit because I wasn't, I didn't see it either.

对年轻人来说，这是个相当大的激励。

That's a pretty big incentive for a young person.

他把整个桌子都检查了一遍，然后找到了。

And he knowed the entire table and he found it.

它就在那儿。

And it was there.