Dinari：确认美股资产结算永续合约（完整故事）

但现在我们能用D股做的事情，比以前开放多了。

But what we can now do, allow people to do with our D Shares is way more unlocked, you know, than it used to be.

欢迎回到The Rollup，各位。

Welcome back to therollup guys.

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Hit the like button.

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It's the easiest way to support our channel.

我们每天都会采访金融界最顶尖的一些人物。

We interview some of best minds in finance every single day.

享受今天的节目吧。

Enjoy today's show.

嘿，山姆。

Hey, Sam.

我们回到了这里

We're back here

在Avalanche峰会的第二天。

at Avalanche Summit day two.

今天我们请到了Gabe Otte，Dinari的创始人兼CEO。

We're here with Gabe Otte, the founder and CEO of Dinari.

SEC代币化豁免日。

SEC tokenization exemption day.

真是特别的一天。

What a day.

Gabe，真是生逢其时啊。

What a time to be alive, Gabe.

你怎么样？

How you doing?

还不错。

Doing alright.

好。

Good.

好。

Good.

好。

Good.

安迪特别兴奋，因为Zcash快涨到1500了。

Andy's euphoric because Zcash is pushing 1,500.

感觉我们终于被市场认可了，因为我们一直在讲这些，之前市场那么冷淡，感觉什么都影响不了我们。

It feels like we're being validated by the market because we've been just preaching ever since things were so apathetic, and it felt like just nothing could really take us up or down.

我们每天都在跟像你这样的人聊天，他们都在建设金融的未来。

We've just been continuously day in and day out talking with people that are just building the future of finance such as yourself.

而今天，不仅市场认可了我们，监管机构也认可了。

And today, not only is the market validating us, but also the regulatory bodies.

我相信你肯定也觉得扬眉吐气，因为这个代币化豁免就像是专门为Dinari量身定做的。

And I'm sure you must feel vindicated as well because this tokenization exemption feels as if it was written specifically for Dinari.

那你能不能跟我们说说你的反应，既是你个人的反应，也是Dinari对这个豁免的反应，大家应该怎么看待这件事？

And so maybe you could just give us the reaction, both your personal reaction and then how Dinari is reacting to this exemption, how people should be thinking about this.

我……

I...

你，你说到点子上了。

You you said it.

我自己都写不出比这更好的了。

I couldn't have written it better myself.

我觉得让我惊讶的是……

I think the surprises to me...

因为我们早就知道会要求KYC，因为消费者保护真的很重要。

Because we knew it was gonna be KYC'd because their consumer protection is really important.

所以这不会是完全无许可的那种东西。

So it it wasn't gonna be this permissionless thing.

而且我们也知道它会支持交易代币化股票的场所，这很棒。

And we knew that it was gonna support venues trading tokenized stocks, which was great.

对我来说，惊讶的是他们直接把合成资产整个砍掉了。

I think for me, the surprise was, like, they just cut out synthetics altogether.

而且这真的验证了一个想法，就是，对，就算资产被代币化了，消费者的权益也不能少。

And and really validated this idea of, like, yeah, just because it's tokenized doesn't mean that the consumers get less.

他们必须获得和实际持有股票一样的权利和风险敞口。

They have to get the same rights and exposure as if you're actually owning the stock.

只要你的代币化股票还是股票，对吧。

But for as long as your tokenized stock is that, is stock Right.

现在它可以在合规的去中心化金融平台上交易了。

Now it can be traded on, DeFi venues that are also compliant.

这真的是一个巨大的突破。

And, like, that's a huge breakthrough.

你知道，我们已经在美推出了，但现在我们能让大家用我们的D股做的事情，比以前解锁的要多得多。

You know, we're already launched in The US, but what we can now do, allow people to do with our D shares is way more unlocked, you know, than it used to be.

太不可思议了。

Incredible.

我很喜欢。

I love it.

所以我们一直听到的一个消息是，美国证券交易委员会和商品期货交易委员会，但这次主要是美国证券交易委员会在征求意见。

And and so, you know, one of the things that we're we're continuing to hear is that the SEC and the CFTC, but in this case, the SEC is looking for feedback.

其实这个代币化豁免就是一个提案。

Like, really what this is, this tokenization exemption is a proposal.

这有点像试点项目。

It's like a pilot almost.

就像是

It's like

他们提出的一个试点提案，现在我们正处于征求意见期。

a pilot proposal that they're putting out there, and now we're in this comment period.

特别是美国证券交易委员会在征求对这个提案的意见。

And the SEC in particular is looking for commentary on this proposal.

据我了解，他们希望对这个提案的深度和范围都得到反馈。

And my understanding is that both on the depth and scope of this proposal, they're looking for feedback.

你知道，这是一个临时提案，而且范围有限。

You know, it's a temporary proposal and it's somewhat limited.

所以，就像你说的，仅限于许可制，对吧，不是完全无许可的开放访问。

And so, like you said, limited to permission, right, not full permissionless open access.

所以当我们思考评论期以及最终生效时会是什么样子，你知道，他们不能做得太过分，也不能把范围定得太宽或太无限，因为那样的话，他们会被不同的州和立法者起诉。

And so as we think through the comment period and what this ultimately looks like when it goes into effect, you know, they can't do too much and make it too broad or so infinite because, you know, then they get sued by different states and different legislators.

那么他们应该重点强调什么呢？

And so what should they be emphasizing?

从你的角度来看，作为构建代币化资产的行业领导者，SEC在这个评论期内应该考虑什么，才能真正收紧这个豁免，并使其成为尽可能强有力的指导？

From your perspective, as an industry leader building tokenized assets, what should the SEC take into account during this commentary period to really tighten this exemption and make this as strong a guidance as it should be?

所以我认为监管者需要记住的主要事情是，我们如何在不破坏现有对最终用户保护的前提下，把所有这些链上功能引入股票交易？

So I think the main thing to keep in mind for the regulators is how do we bring all these, like, on chain features to stock trading without violating the protections that already exist for the end user?

好的。

Okay.

这就是他们必须把握的平衡点，我认为他们正是利用这五年的时间来真正弄清楚什么会被允许，什么不会被允许，这样我们就能在不破坏资本市场的情况下，获得股票上链的所有好处。

That's the that's the needle that they have to thread, and I think that's what they're using this five year period to really try to figure out of, like, what's gonna be allowed and what's not gonna be allowed so that we can have all these benefits to on chaining stocks without destroying the capital markets.

好的。

Okay.

比如说，自动做市商（AMM）就是这项创新豁免的一部分。

So, like, you know, case in point, AMMs, is part of this innovation exemption.

它们被允许处理代币化股票。

They're allowed to handle tokenized stocks.

那么，AMM相比传统交易所有什么好处呢？

Well, what's the ben...

AMM相比传统交易所有什么好处呢？

Benefit of AMMs compared to clubs?

嗯，一个非常直接、我们现在就能测试的事情就是股票对股票的互换。

Well, one very straightforward thing that we can test now is ticker to ticker swaps.

苹果直接换英伟达。

Apple directly to Nvidia.

这在今天是不可能发生的。

Doesn't happen today.

这对最终用户来说是不是净收益？怎么体现？

Is that a net benefit for the end user and how?

这是不是应税事件？

Is that a taxable event?

如果你直接换股，从一只股票换到另一只，而不是通过现金结算作为中间环节。

If you do a direct swap, ticker to ticker, as opposed to settling in cash as an intermediary.

这些类型的问题确实需要为最终用户的利益来回答，同时不能完全颠覆资本市场。

These are the types of questions that really need to be answered for the benefit of the end user without, you know, completely upending the capital markets.

我喜欢这个。

I love it.

说到那段话里提到的许可性质，这对你来说意味着什么？

When it comes to thinking about the permission nature that was in that language, what does that mean to you?

你看。

Well, look.

他们取消不记名债券之类的东西是有原因的。

They did away with bearer bonds and things like that for a reason.

那个……

There...

看到这个我其实挺安心的，因为他们并没有真的要把那种不记名股票之类的概念带回来。

I was actually very comforted to see that because they're not really bringing back this concept of bearer, you know, stock or something along those lines.

那种东西欺诈风险太大了。

That's rife with fraud.

欺诈对我们所有人都不好。

Fraud is bad for all of us.

就这么直说吧。

Just straight up.

我们之所以能享受到美国资本市场最深的流动性和最受信任的市场，就是因为有这些反洗钱之类的规则在。

We enjoy the, deepest liquidity and the big, the most trusted capital markets in The US because there were these rules that were put into place against AML and, you know, all these kinds of things.

所以在我看来，他们这一步走对了，就是说这不会变成一场混乱的狂欢。

And so to me, this is them taking the right step of, like, it's not gonna be a free for all guys.

但我们会去测试这个叫区块链的创新，看看怎么升级资本市场，这是件好事。

But we are gonna test this innovation that we call blockchain and see how we can upgrade the capital markets, and that's a great thing.

我真的很喜欢这个。

I I love it again.

而且你们已经代币化了这么多资产。

And and you guys have tokenized so much.

整个标普500指数及其成分股，还有指数本身。

The entire S and P, 500 plus assets, the index itself as well.

所以我觉得Dinari的覆盖面是最广的。

And so I think Dinari has the widest breadth.

这个范围，基本上没人能比得上你们目前在代币化股票上的覆盖面。

The aperture is pretty much like no one even comes close to the aperture that you currently have on tokenized equities

在美国。

In The US.

还有美国的股票。

And stocks in The US.

现在我觉得我们会开始看到更多这样的东西，是的，通过AMM进行直接的股票对股票的互换。

Now I think what we're going to start to see more of is, yes, swaps, direct ticker to ticker swaps through AMMs.

现在这已经可以实现了。

That is now possible.

而且，还有更多与这些代币化资产互动的方式。

But also, like, additional modalities of interacting with these tokenized assets.

就在三十分钟前，或者一个小时前，CFTC 自己发布了指导意见，是的。

I mean, just thirty minutes ago, maybe an hour ago, the CFTC put out guidance itself that Yep.

我不想说错，但基本上，这就像很多……

And I I don't wanna get this wrong, but I mean, basically, that It's just like lot of the

被动衍生品产品几乎可以进入一个测试阶段。

passive derivative products are gonna be allowed to be like kind of like in a testing ground almost.

而且

And

你不需要注册成为经纪人就能促成这类交易。

you don't need to register as a broker in order to facilitate that type of transaction.

所以，你怎么看……

And so, I mean, how do you see...

作为专注于这些资产代币化的人，你怎么看待不同形式的实用性？

As someone who's focused on the tokenization of these assets, how do you see the different forms of utility?

也就是说，我真正想问的是，Dinari 会不会在美国股票上提供永续合约？

Meaning, really my question here is, like, will Dinari facilitate perps on US equities?

简单回答是，会的。

So the short answer is yes.

现在所有这些创新豁免所允许的，都是像资产结算永续合约这样非常有趣的东西。

And what what all these innovation exemptions now allow are really interesting things like asset settled perps.

你现在可以在链上购买英伟达的股票。

You can now buy Nvidia stock on chain.

你可以通过 Aave 之类的平台原子化地借入资金，然后投入永续合约。

You can atomically borrow against that on Aave or something like that and then put into perps.

这太不可思议了。

That's insane.

现在这一切都成为可能了。

All that's possible now.

在美国。

In The US.

这太疯狂了。

That's crazy.

一年前我们根本想不到这居然有可能。

We would not have thought that would have been even a remote possibility a year ago.

那帮我理解一下，你们公司在过户代理现代化方面是怎么运作的？

So help me understand this transfer agent modernization dynamic for your company.

因为Dinari有券商执照。

Because Dinari has a broker dealer license.

对。

Yep.

你们有过户代理。

You have a transfer agent.

你们在FINRA注册了。

You are FINRA registered.

但其他公司不是这样的。

But other companies are not.

而且他们没有券商牌照。

And they do not have the broker dealer.

他们不是FINRA注册的，但他们可能有过户代理。

They're not FINRA registered, but they may have a transfer agent.

这意味着，如果这个现代化传闻成真，过户代理公司可以发行代币化证券，那么你的竞争空间会急剧扩大。

Which means if this modernization rumor comes true such that transfer agent companies can be issuers of tokenized securities, the aperture for your competition drastically increases.

不过，我哪里想错了？Dinari能做些什么来帮助那些有过户代理但在基础设施方面没有你们那么完善的公司，让它们能合作而不是竞争呢？

However, why am I wrong, and what can Dinari do to facilitate those companies that have a transfer agent but may not have what you guys have on the infra side to be able to be collaborative rather than competitive.

我……

I...

你看。

Look.

我们一直都是在合作的，因为有了全国市场体系，Dinari可以在我们所有的牌照范围内在这个体系里运作。

It's always been collaborative because we have the national market system, which Dinari can work within with all of our licenses.

然后还有那些转让代理，他们在NMS之外创造新的资产类别。

And then you have the transfer agents that are minting new asset classes outside outside of NMS.

这些东西可以共存。

Those things can coexist.

现在，今天的创新豁免很有意思，对。

Now, today's innovation exemption is interesting Yeah.

因为它明确说的一点是，你不需要发行方的参与，这是那些转让代理经常提到的一点。

Because one of the things that it explicitly said was you don't need issuer buy in, which is one of the things that the transfer agent guys talk a lot about.

就是说，你需要和发行方合作。

Of, like, you need to, you know, work with the issuers.

但SEC说你们不必这样做。

The SEC said you don't have to.

现在发行方基本上可以有否决权，类似这样的东西。

Now the issuers can basically have a veto power, you know, type of a thing.

但除此之外，你基本上可以在没有发行方直接参与的情况下运作。

But barring that, like, you can essentially work without the issuer buying directly.

现在发行方参与进来，就可能实现无许可交易，明白吧。

Now the issuers being bought in enables the permissionless trading potentially Okay.

针对那些资产类别。

Of those asset classes.

这在国家市场系统内是不会发生的，但在国家市场系统之外可能会发生。

That's something that's not gonna happen within the national market system, but it might happen outside of the national market system.

但问题是，发行方主导的那些模式，存在规模问题。

But the problem is is the the issuer sponsored ones, they have an issue of scale.

他们必须一个一个发行方地去谈。

They have to go issuer by issuer by issuer by issuer.

而且那些模式，也许有一些酷炫的功能，比如无许可之类的。

And those, you know, maybe they have these cool features like permissionlessness or something like that.

我敢打赌，99%参与资本市场的人根本不在乎这个。

I'm willing to bet that 99% of people engaging with the capital markets don't care about that.

那1%在乎的人，可以和发行方主导的模式合作，但其他所有情况还是归券商管。

The 1% that do care will, can work with the issuer sponsored, models, but then everything else still falls under broker dealers anyway.

所以，这些东西其实完全不冲突。

And so, like, those things are not mutually exclusive at all.

那我总结一下，是不是可以说，Dinari的D股是你们公司和品牌的核心产品？

So I guess to summarize, like, is it fair to say that Dinari's D shares are the core product for your company and for your brand?

不过，你们在监管和技术方面的基础设施，如果其他发行方有兴趣推出代币化资产，是不是也可以扩展给他们用？

However, the infrastructure that you guys have from a regulatory perspective as well as technology perspective is scalable to other issuers if they're interested in launching tokenized assets as well?

我们和各种发行方都有合作。

We work with all sorts of issuers.

我们……

We work...

我们可以在没有发行方的情况下铸造和代币化资产，两种方式我们都能做。

We we mint and tokenize things without the issuer, and we can do both.

明白了。

Got it.

好的。

Okay.

那我们就把这个话题收个尾吧。

So so just close that loop.

关于那个过户代理的问题，如果真能实现的话，你觉得这对你们公司来说是个净利好，因为代币化资产的发行方可能会增加，从而扩大你们潜在的客户群，对吧？

That that transfer agent issue, if that comes true, you see that as a net positive due to the potential expansion of tokenized asset issuers in relation to the...

相比之下，其他发行方可能会超过你们，形成竞争，你觉得呢？

Of, you know, possible clientele for your company versus competitive in terms of the other issuers outpacing what you guys are doing?

这么说准确吗？

Would you say that's accurate?

过户代理并不会取代我们在经纪自营商方面已经做的事情。

The transfer agency doesn't supersede what we have done with the broker dealer stuff.

好的。

Okay.

但我相信，在这个世界里，一切都应该被代币化。

But I believe in a world where everything should get tokenized.

所以，过户代理层面的代币化越宽松，是的。

And so the more permissive the tokenization at the transfer agent level Yeah.

那就更好了。

The better.

好的。

Okay.

接着这个话题说。

So building on that.

所以，在过户代理层面进行代币化，能拓宽范围。

So so tokenization at the transfer agent level widens the aperture.

对。

Yep.

但如果只限于发行人，那过户代理的权力就很有限。

Whereas restricting it to only the issuers means that the transfer agents have a limited power.

当我们逐步拆解并……

As we unpack and un...

放开你提到的国家市场系统中的一些监管，赋予过户代理更多权力，就能让代币化更快实现。

Deregulate some of the national market system that you're talking about, giving transfer agents more power allows tokenization to happen more quickly.

希望如此。

That's the hope.

好的。

Okay.

希望如此。

That's the hope.

那么，你觉得这能走多远？

And so, you know, how how deep do we think this goes?

比如说，有没有可能过户代理人获得这种权力去放松监管，然后最终实现代币化？

Like, you know, is it possible the transfer agents get this power to deregulate and then ultimately tokenize?

然后当涉及到，你知道，好吧。

And then when it comes to, you know, alright.

现在这些资产已经代币化了，我们在链上对这些资产进行操作的可能性

Now that these things are tokenized, the possibilities that we have available to us to do things with these assets on chain

监管是什么样的？

What is the regulation?

我们现在处于什么阶段？

Where do we stand right now?

这部分是在哪个层面受到监管的？

At what layer is that part regulated?

我们是在寻求对过户代理层面的规则进行现代化和放松监管吗？

Are we looking for modernizing and deregulating rules at the transfer agent layer?

还是说最终是减少这些经纪自营商的规定……

Or is it the reduction of these broker dealer regulations that ultimately...

好的。

Okay.

你知道，我们已经把这些东西代币化了。

You know, we've gotten these things tokenized.

现在是时候让它们蓬勃发展起来了。

Now it's time for them to flourish.

所以我们不想强迫一些技术提供商注册为经纪自营商。

So we don't want to force some of the technology providers to register as broker dealers.

这样才能让代币化资产有更高的货币流通速度，让它们在链上经济中蓬勃发展。

That's what is going to allow for higher monetary velocity of tokenized assets to allow them to flourish all across the on chain economy.

所以这就是今天的创新豁免条款发挥作用的地方。

So this is where the innovation exemption today comes in.

好的。

Okay.

因为美国证券交易委员会（SEC）正在试图找到那个标准。

Because they're trying to find that bar, the SEC.

因为一方面，人们可以直接接触这些资产而不需要经纪自营商，听起来很酷。

Because on one hand, it sounds cool for people to have direct access to these assets without broker dealers.

但另一方面，还有像SIPC保险这样的东西，它就像是经纪人的FDIC。

On the other hand, there are things like SIPC insurance, which is like the FDIC for brokers.

如果有人偷了你的股票，你有保险吗？

Where if somebody steals your shares, are you insured?

如果你通过经纪自营商交易，这是内置的保障。

And that's built in if you go through a broker dealer.

所以，这些保护措施是多年来逐步建立起来的，用来保护消费者。

And so, like, these protections exist and have been built up over the years to protect the consumer.

SEC不可能一夜之间就把这些全部取消。

The SEC is not gonna do away with all of that overnight.

所以他们会在自由访问和保护之间寻找平衡。

And so they're gonna try to find that balance of, you know, freedom of access with protections.

有道理。

Makes sense.

Gabe，我们最后再问你一个问题。

Gabe, last thing for you from us.

知道今天时间比较紧。

Know it's been a quick segment today.

虽然对于这个过户代理现代化具体能实现什么还有些猜测，但显然会在某种程度上实现。

Given there's a bit of speculation here on what's possible with this transfer agent modernization, it's obviously gonna happen in some capacity.

我们不知道具体会怎样，但我们知道眼前的情况。

We don't know what, but we do know what's in front of us.

根据你过去四十八小时收到的信息，这个豁免、这个CFTC的裁决，到底有没有让你改变你的观点、计划或者策略？

Based on the information that you've received in the last forty eight hours, clarity, failing, this exemption, this CFTC ruling, just give us a sense of, like, what changes in your thesis or in your plans or in your strategy?

这对我来说是件好事……

This is a wonderful thing of you...

你知道当这种情况发生时，你是对的。

You know you're right when this happens.

没有。

Nothing.

我们的计划没有任何改变，因为我们一直坚信，要在不剥夺终端用户权利的前提下升级资本市场。

Nothing changes about our plans because our conviction has always been upgrade to capital markets without taking away rights for the end user.

如果你能做到这一点，SEC已经表明他们百分之百支持这个策略。

If you can thread that needle, what the SEC has shown is they're backing that strategy 100%.

所以我觉得，这有点像是证明了我们一直强调的观点——你不能剥夺权利，而且有一种方法可以在不剥夺这些权利的同时，推进所有现代化进程。

And so I I I think, you know, this is a little bit of vindication of, like, we've been harping on this of, like, you can't take away rights, and there is a way to tokenize without taking away those rights while bringing all the modernization forward.

所以我们会继续这样做。

So that's what we're gonna continue to do.

太棒了。

Incredible.

太爽了。

Fuck yeah.

Gabe，非常感谢你。

Gabe, thank you so much.

Dinari一直……

Dinari has been...

我们很兴奋。

We're excited.

我们很兴奋。

We're excited.

我们当然很兴奋。

We we absolutely are.

而且Dinari一直是个非常棒的合作伙伴。

And Dinari has been a fantastic partner.

太棒了。

Awesome.

很好。

Great.

爱你，兄弟。

Love you, man.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

我们也很期待一起把这个板块做起来。

And we're excited to build out this segment together.

谢谢大家。

Thanks, guys.

干杯，谢谢。

Cheers, Thanks.