Ethena首席执行官：市场刚刚扩大了60倍（一切都将改变）

好的，老兄。

Alright, Guy.

欢迎来到节目，兄弟。

Welcome to the show, man.

很高兴你能来。

Good to have you.

我知道你很忙，兄弟。

I know you're busy, man.

很高兴见到你。

Nice to see you.

很高兴你能来，兄弟。

Good to have you, man.

恭喜你推出Ethena Pay。

Congrats on the launch of Ethena Pay.

这次发布很重大。

Big launch.

而且，我的意思是，我们现在显然处于市场的机构化时代。

And, I mean, what a what a we are in an institutional era of the market clearly.

我觉得你们在这方面已经做好了充分的准备。

I think you guys have been strongly positioned for this.

显然，你们发布了那个解锁的消息，我觉得市场反应很好。

Obviously, you guys came out with that unlock news, which I think the market responded well to.

我觉得这也可能为其他团队树立了一个标准，他们也想尽快解决这些悬而未决的问题，直奔主题。

I think also, you know, setting a standard perhaps for some other teams who wanna just get those overhangs done and just get to the point.

我们在这里打造的是一个真正的业务。

We're building a real business here.

这就是我们的现状。

Here's what we got.

跟我们说说，现在Ethena的情况怎么样？

Talk us through just kinda where we are at on the state of Athena.

简单跟我们更新一下。

Just kind of catch us up.

最后

Last

去年绝对是我职业生涯中最具挑战性的一年，也是Athena成立三年以来最艰难的一年。

year was definitely the most challenging I think I've had in my, like, career and also just like Athena's existence in the last three.

我觉得在10月10日之后，我们就像是措手不及，遭遇了一连串几乎可笑的市场不利事件，这些事件偏偏就发生在我们身上。

I think post 10/10, think we're just caught offside with like multiple, almost like a comical series of just like bad market events that could have specifically happened to us.

所以10月10日对我们影响巨大，衍生品未平仓合约的崩溃程度甚至比2022年还要严重。

So ten ten obviously a huge impact to us with kind of derivative open interest just collapsing even worse than it was in 2022.

紧接着又发生了另一起加密事件，当时美元是最大的抵押资产，对吧？

Then we had the other Encryption incident straight afterwards where USD was like the largest collateral asset on are they?

然后我们使用LayerZero作为跨链基础设施。

And then we use low zero for our cross chain infrastructure.

所以感觉就像每三个月我们就会遭遇一次所谓的四西格玛事件，每三个月一次。

And so it just felt like every three months we were just kind of having these know four sigma events basically happened to us every three months.

但是的，我认为我们重新定位了，让USDe这个核心产品更具韧性，并在整个周期中拥有更坚实的基础。

But yeah, I think repositioned I think both the core product on USDe to just be a bit more resilient and have a stronger foundation through the cycle.

我觉得这不算什么秘密，这个产品在整个周期里表现得很明显，好的时候特别好，能支付10%的收益，你知道的，18个月就涨到了150亿。

I think it's no kind of secret that it's a pretty reflective product through the cycle in the sense that when times are good, it's like an amazing product that's paying 10% yield and like, you know, goes to 15,000,000,000 in eighteen months.

但市场一旦回调，你就得花更多时间去适应那个阶段。

But then when the market unwinds, you just have a much more difficult sort of time sort of adjusting to that period.

所以USDe是核心产品，我觉得它已经变得更有韧性了，而且我们扩展了业务，不只是做基差交易，还做机构借贷、RWA，当然还有那两种票据。

So USDe is a core product, think it's just become a lot more resilient three times and we've expanded to do not only basis but actually institutional lending, RWAs and then obviously two bills that's it within that.

然后我觉得那边最大的增长点就是我们在RWA等领域的净化过程中看到的增长。

And then I think the big growth factor that's sort of opening up on that side is the growth that we've seen with purification of everything like perhaps an RWA's and that kind of stuff.

我觉得除了那些促进RWA交易的交易所之外，Ethena可能是这个趋势的第二大受益者，因为你基本上是在扩大USDe可以容纳的资产范围，从2.5万亿美元的加密货币扩展到150万亿美元的其他资产。

I think outside of the exchanges who are facilitating the trading of the RWA perhaps, Ethena is probably the second biggest beneficiary of that trend just because you're essentially expanding the time of what could go into USDe from $2,500,000,000,000 of crypto to $150,000,000,000,000 of other assets.

而且我们看到，RWA的未平仓合约从零增长到150亿，今年过去九个月里支付15%到18%的收益。

And we're seeing, you know, RWA perhaps have gone from like zero to 15,000,000,000 OI paying 15 to 18% this year over the last nine months.

而且我们几周前宣布，下周基本上就要在USD的后端开始股权业务了。

And we had an announcement out I think a couple of weeks ago that we're starting equity perhaps next week basically in the back end of USD.

所以我对这个非常兴奋，因为简单来说，我们靠加密货币就做到了150亿。

So I'm just very excited about that just because you know, in simple terms, got to 15 bill just doing this on crypto.

我真的觉得，RWA的规模可能会是我们在加密货币领域看到的规模的数倍。

I really just think that like RWA perhaps are gonna be a multiple of the size that we saw with crypto in general.

所以，我们做的事情的规模也会是那150亿的数倍。是的，这就是Ethena USDe这边的情况。另外，我们还有一个白标稳定币业务，任何人都可以在我们的产品上推出自己的稳定币。

And so the time for what we're doing is just gonna be a multiple of that 15 bill going So yeah, that's on the Ethena USDe side and then also have a white label stablecoin business where anyone can sort of like launch on top of our product.

所以，你有Jupiter、Mega E3，还有几个其他的很快也会推出。

So you have Jupiter, Mega E3, a couple of others that are coming out soon on that side.

我觉得，就AUM而言，这实际上是目前市场上最大的Y层。

I it's think actually the largest in the market right now in terms of AUM for a Y level.

然后还有Ethena Pay，我们几周前宣布的。我觉得我们在这里的大致思路是，我们在整合正确的分销平台方面做得不错，通过Robinhood、Coinbase等平台来推动USDe的增长。

And then Ethena Pay which we obviously announced a couple of weeks ago where I think the broad thesis for us here is just I think we've done a decent job of kind of integrating in the correct distribution platforms to grow USDe through Robinhood's coin bases etcetera etcetera.

但最终，我不想只是做别人前端的后端。

But like in an end state, I don't want to just don't want to just be the back end for other people's kind of front ends.

我认为，拥有客户关系并掌控自己的分销渠道，是你应该努力去做的重要事情。

I think owning the customer relationship and driving the destiny of your own distribution is an important thing for you to try and do.

对我们来说，移动端数字银行的形态，才是你在做货币业务时，实现这一目标的终极方式，而这就是我们的业务。

And for us, the form factor of a mobile neobank is really the ultimate way for you to try to do that when you're in the business of, money, which is what we are.

对我们来说，我们真的觉得这里有个优势，那就是你同时拥有美元发行和收益生成的垂直整合，再加上数字银行。

And for us, like, we really think that there is an edge here, which is you own the structural vertical integration of dollar issuance and yield generation with the neobank at the same time.

所以对我来说，现在很多数字银行基本上都是建立在别人的稳定币之上，这对Circle和Tether来说是好事。

So to me it's pretty crazy that a lot these neobanks right now have basically built their products on someone else's stablecoin, which is great for Circle and Tether.

但如果你看看像新银行或Revolut这样的公司，他们40%的收入都来自账户余额的利息收入。

But if you look at the revenue of a new bank or a Revolut, 40% of the revenues are just interest generation on balances that are sitting there.

所以如果你能控制整个市场上收益率最高的美元，这基本上就是Ethena从第一天起就一直在做的事情，我们

And so if you control the dollar with the highest yield in the whole market, which is kind of the bread and butter of what Ethena has done since day one, we

这种韧性。

this resiliency.

就是这种，好吧，USDe有多重抵押品支持，团队、创始人也有韧性。

It's this, okay, multiple collateral backing for USDe, resiliency as a team, as a founder, as as well.

你能自信地说USDe远比

Can you confidently say that USDe is far more

我不认为这是目前外界的看法。

And I don't think that's a perception right now from the outside in.

我觉得这三年里，我们经历了很多灾难，比如五比特黑客事件、十十、AAVE等等。

I think it's been kind of like three years of all the disasters that we've spoken about with five bit hacks, ten ten, AAVE, etcetera, etcetera.

大约有300亿美元通过USDe进行铸造和赎回，我们从未损失过别人一分钱，这对我来说是过去三年里最值得骄傲的成就。

We've had about $30,000,000,000 flow through USDe on mints and redeems and never lost a single basis point of someone else's money, which for me is kind of the proudest achievement of everything in the last sort of three years.

所以对我们来说，产品的定位确实和以前大不相同了。

And so for us, do think the Linde of the product is massively different than before.

我们甚至可以从增长数字和资金成本的关系中看到这一点，比如2024年Ethena刚推出时，当收益率从20%降到10%，产品并没有增长。

We can even kind of see it in the the growth numbers relative to your cost of capital in the sense that like in 2024 when Ethena first came out, when the yields dropped from like 20 to 10%, the product wasn't growing.

当收益率降到10%时，产品反而在萎缩。

It was kind of shrinking when it hit 10.

那是个非常吓人的时刻，因为你看着这个情况，心里想，糟糕。

And that that was a pretty scary moment because you're looking at this and you're like, shit.

难道这个东西需要永远支付20%的收益率才能增长吗？

Does this thing need to pay 20% infinite, like, forever to to this thing to ever grow?

而现在，收益率回升到4.5%、4.75%，过去三四周里我们已经有近10亿美元的新资金流入。

And then now, it's like bumping up to 4.5, 4.75, and we've had almost a billion of, new inflows that came in the last sort of, three to four weeks.

所以在我看来，市场在告诉你，这个东西的风险已经不像三年前大家想的那样了。实际上，只要比国债收益率稍微高一点，你就能在一个月左右的时间里增长大约十亿的供应量。

So to me that is the market telling you that like the risk of this thing is not the same as everyone thought it was like three years ago and actually paying a little bit above t bills, you're growing like a billion of supply in the last sort of like month.

所以这其实是个非常重要的指标。如果你真正思考DeFi应用在交易基础设施之外的商业模式，你其实在做两件事：一是向人们出售信任，二是在以最低的资金成本积累美元的游戏里竞争。

And so that's actually very important metric which is if you really think about the business models of DeFi applications outside of trading infrastructure, you're in the business of two things which is you're selling trust to people and you're just in a game of accumulating dollars at the lowest cost of capital.

所以，如果你想想在交易之外，真正能在多个周期里大规模积累显著价值的链上业务，其实就只有Sky和Aave。它们基本上每年都能产生超过一亿美元的自由现金流，业务模式就是资产管理规模的聚合，核心逻辑是一样的：你要足够信任我，把你的美元以近乎无风险的利率留在我这里，然后我通过你留在我这里的美元赚取利差。

So if you think about really the only two on chain businesses outside of trading that I think multi cycle have actually managed to accrue significant value at scale, it's really been just Sky and Ave, where they've where they've basically generated more than a 100 mil of free cash flow a year in the business of like AUM aggregation and the business model is the same thing which is you're gonna trust me so much to leave your dollars with me at basically sofa and I'm gonna create a spread to those dollars that you've left with me.

所以对我们来说，经历我之前描述的那些市场波动，确实挺痛苦的。

And so for us you know it was pretty painful to go through those experiences that I described of you know market online.

我们在总锁仓量（TVL）和市场份额方面也经历了很大的波动。

We had a huge online in terms of our TVL market stuff.

但正是挺过了这些事件，反而为之后打下了更坚实的基础，因为人们会想，我觉得这个东西的风险溢价并不足以支撑它和国债之间巨大的利差。

But just surviving through those events actually creates like a much more solid foundation on the other side because people go well I don't think the risk premium on this thing justifies you know a huge spread to sofa.

它基本上就比国债稍微高一点。

It is basically just a little bit above so far.

盖伊，今天我们就简短聊一下。

Guy, just a quick segment today.

所以在我们结束之前，我们一直在宣扬这个稳定币的论点，就是说有储备支持的稳定币，它们需要储备金，而政府会继续花钱，

So kinda as we close, we've been preaching this stablecoin thesis, which is that stablecoins that are backed, they need reserves, and the government is gonna continue to spend money,

而且他们

and they

基本上需要对国债有一个结构性的买盘。

need basically a structural bid on treasuries.

这正在全世界发生。

This is happening all across the world.

不仅仅是在美国。

It's not just in The US.

我们正处于人们所说的全球债券危机之中，也许这有点夸张。

We're in the middle of this global bond crisis that people are calling for and maybe it's a little bit exaggerated.

但现实是，我们正在全球范围内扭曲债券曲线的久期，我们需要短期票据的买家来为政府支出融资。

But the reality is that we're twisting the duration out of the bond curve all all over the world, and we need buyers for short term bills in order to finance government spending.

而在法币存款机构，我的理解是，在这些机构存入的每一美元法币，都会产生大约每美元5到15美分的结构性票据买盘。

And in fiat depository institutions, my understanding is each dollar in fiat deposited at these institutions creates a structural bit of bills about 5 to 15¢ for every dollar.

而像天才兼容的稳定币，每存入一美元，就能为短期美国国债和全球债券创造80到90美分的结构性需求，这比传统法币存款高出8到10倍。

Whereas genius compatible stablecoins create 80 to 90¢ for every dollar that is deposited at the stablecoin issuing companies that is backed by those reserves and those bills creates that much more, eight to 10 x more of a structural build for US short duration bonds and and bonds all over the world.

认为稳定币是美国及海外国家的经济优先事项，这是一种阴谋论，还是现实？

Is it a conspiracy to think that stablecoins are a national economic priority in The US and abroad, or is that a reality?

你知道，也许先说明一下。

You know, maybe just preface.

在我开始说一些可能完全错误的话之前，我并不是宏观专家。

I'm not like a macro expert before I start to say things that are outright wrong.

但是，是的，我觉得你甚至可以从特朗普总统本人谈论稳定币的方式中看出来。

But, yeah, I think you can even just see the way that percent Trump himself speaks about stablecoins.

显然，在加密货币的广泛领域中，稳定币是他们最感兴趣和最重要的子类别之一。

It's clearly one of the most important sort of like pieces that are coming out of crypto broadly in terms of their interest and importance of just like the subcategory.

我想说的一点是，总的来说，你提到的数字是合理的，但银行存款，对吧，不仅仅是100%的国债。

The one piece I would say is like broadly, I think the numbers that you're mentioning are in line, is like a deposit at a bank, right, isn't just 100 treasuries.

它是银行资产负债表上所有不同业务的集合，比如企业贷款、抵押贷款支持证券、资产支持证券等等，这些并不会直接转化为对短期国债的需求。

It's like the amalgamation of all the different things that a bank does within its balance sheet with like corporate lending, MBS, ABS, etcetera etcetera, which doesn't just flow through to a bid on short term treasuries.

不过我想补充一点，就是现在最失控的其实是长端利率，而不是短端。当通胀预期严重偏离时，长端利率可能会脱离短期利率的约束，等等。

Maybe the one caveat I would just mention to what you've said is that it feels like the piece that's most out of control right now is really the long end of the curve rather than the short end where the long end can kind of untether itself from short term interest rates when inflation expectations are way out of order, etcetera, etcetera.

而这就是特朗普现在试图通过购买长端债券来控制的情况。

And that's what percent is trying to bring under control right now with the buying that is doing on the long end.

但稳定币发行商并不是长端债券的买家。

And stablecoin issuers are not buyers of the long end.

他们只买短期的东西。

It's only short dated stuff.

长端债券基本上有久期风险，你无法承担按市值计价的这种风险。

The long end basically has duration which you can't take like the mark to market risk on.

所以我觉得，是的，这确实是个重要因素。

So I think that there is like yes.

但我认为，最近几周人们可能对某个特定问题反应过度了。

It's an important piece, but I think there's very specific issue that we're seeing people overreact to, I think, in the last kinda couple of weeks.

这其实是长端的问题，而稳定币我觉得并不涉及或参与其中。

It's like a long end issue, which stablecoins, I think, don't really touch or are involved with.

各位，你知道的，这个环节时间有点短。

Guy, as we you know, it's a bit of a short segment.

我们本来还有几分钟的。

We had a couple more minutes.

当我们思考Ethena ENA这个资产会走向何方时，大约十八个月前我半开玩笑地创造了“收入元”这个词，结果真的挺搞笑的，我为此被骂得很惨。

As we kind of think about where the Ethena ENA, the asset goes, I coined this term kind of ironically about eighteen months ago, the revenue meta, and it's really comical, and I got thrown in the doghouse for it really hard.

但现在我们确实走到了这一步，我们目前的杠铃策略是，一边是能产生现金流、进行回购、代币经济模型很好的链上业务，另一边是价值存储资产。

But here we are, and our current barbell is on chain businesses that generate cash flow and do buybacks and have a really good token economic model and then store value assets.

我们先把这个放一边，来想想这部分。

We'll kinda put that to the side and think about this part.

Ethena代币，我记得有一个回购提案，要么还在提案阶段，要么刚刚通过。

The Ethena token is I believe there was a proposal for buybacks that is either in proposal still or it just went through.

那么，你怎么看2024年的Ethena和2026年的Ethena，就资产本身而言？

And so how do you think about, you know, Ethena in 2024 versus Ethena in 2026 with regards to the asset?

这些资产有什么不同？

What is different about the assets?

现在请你戴上投资者的帽子。

Put your investor hat on here.

看看整个加密资产的格局。

Look at the landscape of crypto assets.

为什么现在的Ethena不一样了？

Why is Ethena different now?

为什么它对机构投资者更有吸引力？当然，这不是投资建议。

Why is it more appealing to institutional investors, not financial advice?

你想怎么展开都行。

And take this wherever you want.

当然。

For sure.

我觉得最好的切入点就是我们之前发布的那份公告，就是你提到的那份，因为它基本上涵盖了我们所有的想法。

I think the best place to start is probably just that announcement that we came out with that you referenced because I think it sort of encapsulates all of the different thoughts that we had around this.

所以我觉得从很多方面来看，Ethena就像是那种没人愿意碰的、所谓的“脏VC币”的典型代表，就是那种流通量低、完全估值高的项目。

So I think in many senses, like, Ethena was the poster child of kind of dirty VC coin that no one wanted to touch and was like, you know, low float, high FTV.

我们看到了那些评论，我觉得很多都挺有道理的。

Like, we saw those comments and I think a lot of them were reasonable.

我会第一个举手承认，我在融资、股东结构这些方面犯了很多错误。

I'll be the first to put up my hand that I made like a lot of mistakes when it came to like fundraising, who we had in our cap table, all those different pieces.

我觉得市场走到那一步，虽然对所有人都很痛苦，但有一个好处是，它给了我们一个机会，基本上可以重新开始，试着去清理过去犯下的一些错误，或者我个人犯下的错误。

And I think the one good thing about the market sort of getting to the place that it did even though it was extremely painful for everyone involved was that it just gave us a moment to basically just reset everything and kind of try clean up some of the mistakes that we've made in the past or that I've made personally.

所以我们做的事情是，首先，认识到Labs股权、基金会、代币这些混淆不清的东西，真的就像一团不必要的乌云笼罩着你，你应该去澄清它。

So what we did was, a, recognize that this whole sort of like labs equity foundation token sort of confusion piece is really just like an unnecessary cloud that sort of hands over you that you should just like clarify.

而且真的没有理由再留下任何疑问，除非你打算不诚实。

And it really is no reason to leave any doubts around this like at all going forward unless you're trying to be dishonest about things I think.

对我们来说，基本上就是在一份公开文件中明确下来，我不确定除了Morpho之外有多少人这么做过，甚至可以说，Labs内部产生的所有知识产权，现在以及未来，都转移给基金会，同时明确，如果业务被出售给任何人，如果有收购方进来，收益会在所有代币持有者之间按比例分配。

For us it was basically just crystallizing in a public document which I'm not sure many people have done outside of Morpho to say even even go as far as saying, all the IP that was produced within Labs now and on a continuous basis going forward is transferred over to the foundation and also crystallizing that if the business is ever sold to anyone, if you have an acquirer come in, it's actually shared pro rata between all token holders on the other side.

因为我们见过一些这样的收购案例，代币业务被买走，代币直接归零，然后团队拿着两千万美元走人。

Because we've seen a few of those acquisitions where like token business gets bought, token is just a zero, and then like the team kind of walks off with 20 mil.

所以所有这些现在都明确在一份公开文件中，没有冲突，股权对未来的任何现金流都没有任何索取权。

So like all of that is crystallized now in a public document where there is no conflict and the equity has no claim on any cash flow whatsoever going forward.

另一件事是关于解锁的，我们买断了自10月10日以来过去十个月里每一个卖出代币的投资者。

The other piece is just around the unlocks, is we bought out every single investor who sold a token in the last ten months since 10/10.

那时候的价格是现在的五倍。

So this is from when prices were five times higher than what they are now.

如果你卖出了哪怕一个Athena代币，并且持有超过总供应量的20个基点，我们就把所有人都买断了，包括他们最好的部分，我觉得这基本上就是在说，我们现在要加倍下注在自己身上。

If you sold a single Athena token and you own more than 20 basis points of supply, we bought out everyone and the best that they had, which I think to us was basically just saying, we're gonna double down on ourselves now.

我们认为这是熊市的底部，没有比现在更好的时机来把你清出去，然后我们继续建设。

We think it's the bottom of the bear market, and there's no better time to, like, take you out, and we're just gonna continue building.

我们团队当然还是锁定的，我们只是解锁了所有投资者，然后说，如果你想被买断，我们现在就直接买断你。

We as the team stayed locked, obviously, and we just unlocked all investors and just said, if you wanna get get bought out, we'll just buy you out, like, straight up right now.

时机真是搞笑，因为基本上就在市场暴涨100%的前一周，抱歉，然后，是的，我觉得最后一部分就是关于根据我们的增长周期来明确回购的时间表。

And it was just pretty hilarious timing because it was basically, like, literally a week before the market ripped, like, a 100%, which sorry to and then and then, yeah, I think the final piece was just around crystallizing base of the schedule of buybacks relative to where we are in our growth cycle.

我觉得这一点上我稍微不同意市场的看法，关于整个回购问题，我觉得保罗前几天在你的节目上谈了他为什么不做回购，我觉得他其实说得很有道理，那就是如果你真的相信你的产品市场机会是现在的10到100倍，这是我的看法。

I think this is one piece where I slightly disagree with the market and the whole buyback matter I think in general which is I think Paul was on your show the other day talking about why he's not doing buybacks and I think he actually has a very good point by the way which is kind of like if you genuinely believe the market opportunity for you to grow your product is 10 to a 100 x where it is now, which is my view.

我觉得如果稳定币达到3万亿美元，像Ethena这样的收益型储蓄产品，很有可能其中一个在未来五年内达到1000亿美元或者跟Tether一样大。

I think if stablecoins go to 3,000,000,000,000, these sort of like reward bearing savings products like Ethena's, there's a very real possibility one of these is sitting at a $100,000,000,000 or the size of Tether in the next like five years.

如果你真的相信这一点，那你就应该把每一分钱都花在确保自己实现那个目标上，而不是，你知道，回购现在这个其实不太有意思的数量。

If you believe that to be true, you should just be spending every single dollar that you have, making sure that you create that outcome for yourself instead of, like, you know, buying back what is a slightly uninteresting amount right now, I'd say.

话虽如此，我也意识到我的观点并不是说可以强加给所有人，而且你明显能看出来，大家现在就想看到代币有一些关联和价值捕获，即使那是你未来的雄心。

Having said that, I've I've come to realize that my view on that is not like it's not reasonable to push that view on everyone, and you can clearly tell that people wanna see some connection and value capture to the token now even if that is your ambition to go forward.

所以我们试图达成的平衡基本上就是说，我们现在回购的数量，相比我们最终状态下的抽成率可能达到的水平，要小得多。

And so the balance that we try to strike was basically just saying the amount that we're buying back right now is much much smaller versus where we think it could be in an end state in terms of a take rate.

随着我们不断壮大，填补我们描述的那个市场机会，我们回购代币的比例基本上会随着我们的规模而增长。

And as we start to get bigger and fill out that market opportunity that we're describing, the percentage that we're buying back of the token scales basically with our size.

所以基本上就是想表达，我们听到了你们的声音，听到了市场想要什么，但请给我们更多时间真正去抓住我们面前的机会，不过我们还是会努力和你们找到一个折中方案，就是说会有一些回购，但我们现在追求的目标比现在这个规模下的一点回购要大得多。

And so you're basically just trying to say, we hear you out, we hear what you want as a market, but please give us more time to actually go and capture the opportunity that we sit ahead of us, but we're still gonna try to find a middle ground with you to say there will be some buybacks, but the price that we're running after is so much bigger than a bit of buybacks now at the size that we're sitting at.

所以

So

请原谅我没读过那个提案。

And forgive me for not reading the proposal.

我好像已经好几年没看过治理表格了。

I don't think I've looked at a governance form in a couple years is what it is.

回购是线性增长的吗？也就是说，随着价格上涨，回购量实际上会减少？

Do the buybacks scale in a linear fashion such that as the price increases, they the buybacks actually come down?

相对于价格来说，基本上是相对于美元的规模。

Relative to price, it's like relative to size of USD, basically.

也就是说，当美元供应量达到75亿时，只有5%的总收益会用于回购。

So it's saying, like, at 7.5 bill of USD supply, only 5% of the gross yield will go back to buybacks.

当达到200亿时，基本上就是20%。

When it's at 20 bill, it's like 20%, basically.

所以基本上就是说，随着产品规模的增大，你的费率也在提高。

So you're basically saying your take rate on the product is increasing as the size of the product increases.

但我觉得你提出的另一个观点很好，那就是人们喜欢程序化回购这种想法，或者说不分青红皂白，不管价格如何。

I But think the point that you're raising is another good one, which is people love this idea of programmatic buybacks or, like, indiscriminate, don't care where the price is.

我们只是每天以相同的速度向市场投入，这不是任何人能控制的，我要告诉你，这不是一个好的资本配置方式，因为没有任何价格是不贵的。

We're just gonna shove into the market every day at the same rate, which is not anyone in track, I would tell you that that's not a great allocation of capital to say, there is no price at which this isn't expensive.

所以我认为最终市场会成熟起来，会说，如果我们处于某个滚动市盈率倍数，我们会或多或少地做这些事情。

And so I think eventually the market will mature and say, you know, if we're at some trailing PE multiple, we're gonna be doing more or less of these things.

但现在，我觉得大家首先想看到的是，你们到底做不做，给我们一个保证。

But right now, I think people just wanna see as a first, you know, instance, are you doing it or not and giving us that assurance.

而且说实话，我觉得很多这些问题，其实都是过去五年里代币项目在市场上造成的信任破裂所导致的。

And I do think honestly a lot of this stuff is driven basically by like the broken trust that token projects have created with everyone else in the market in the last five years.

我觉得市场的好处在于，我们也已经对此做出了回应，市场已经明确表示，我们不再想要任何关于股权和代币结构的游戏或疑虑。

And I think the good thing about the market and, you know, we've obviously responded to it as well, is that the market has just said, we no longer want any games or any doubts around equity versus token structures.

要么你按我们想要的来做，要么你的代币就没有买盘，价格就会归零。

It's either you do what we wanna see or you have a zero bid on your token and it's going to zero based on the other side.

而且我觉得这其实是个挺健康的游戏，顺便说一句，Guy，我只是……

And I think that's actually a pretty healthy game, by the way, for Guy, I'm just

我很高兴你也意识到了这个早期的幸运时机，但运气好总比能力强要好。

I'm glad that you also recognize this early lucky timing, but it's better to be lucky than good.

我的意思是，现实就是这样。

I mean, that's the reality.

当然，我相信你当时也是经过深思熟虑的。

Obviously, I'm sure you you were calculated in that.

最后一点是，你的业务几乎分成了两块，而且你开始看到这种情况到处都有。

And just final point is that you you've almost got separate things happening with your business, and you're starting to see this across the board.

你的核心业务是把稳定币的总供应量扩大到一千亿美元。

You've got your core business scaling your stablecoin to a $100,000,000,000 of total outstanding supply.

然后你几乎就像有一个自由裁量的对冲基金，对吧？

And then you've got almost like a discretionary hedge fund on your Right?

你设定了一个要遵循的模式，但其他团队可能有更灵活的思路，他们试图在低点猛冲，然后在牛市继续时松油门，试图管理市场的预期，几乎就像为自己的资产做市商一样。

And you've set up, like, a model that you're gonna follow, but other teams may have a more discretionary outlook where they're trying to slam it at the lows and then, you know, take the take the foot off the gas as the bull market goes on, try to kind of manage the expectations of the market, almost manage almost be a market maker for their own asset.

所以你几乎形成了这种分叉的业务结构。

And so you've almost got this, like, bifurcated business structure forming.

最后说说对Ethena的总结想法。

Just closing thoughts there, closing thoughts on Ethena.

嗯，我认为在最终状态下，我们提出的回购计划只是程序化的，就是说它会是一个相对于美元规模的固定百分比。

Well, I think in an end state, right now, the buyback schedule we put forward is just programmatic to say it's gonna be this fixed percentage relative to USD size.

我并不是想把它与代币的价格挂钩。

I'm not trying to price it relative to, like, the price of the token essentially.

但我要说的是，我在方向上同意你的看法。

But I would say that I agree with you directionally.

这样做确实是更合理的资本配置方式。

That is a better allocation of capital to be doing that.

问题是，我觉得股票投资者更懂这个，他们会奖励那些聪明的资本配置者，比如谷歌和苹果会持有现金，等到股价下跌时再大量买入。

The problem is that, like, I think equity investors understand that a lot better, which is like, they reward you for being a smart allocator of capital where a Google and Apple will sit on the cash, wait until the dip, and then buy a ton.

而股票投资者不会说，天哪，你怎么没有每个月都稳定回购。

And the empty investors aren't going like, oh my god, you didn't buy back every month consistently.

我们相信你会在正确的时间做出正确的决定。

We trust you to be making the right calls at the right time.

但在加密货币领域，有些人会觉得，如果你现在都不愿意以这个价格买入代币，那我为什么要买？

But in crypto, think it's sort of seen by some people are sort of saying, if you're not willing to buy the token now at this price, why should I?

而且，我是不是反而应该卖掉？

And, like, should I sell it actually on the other side?

所以我觉得这其实是一个市场结构成熟度的问题，但我想我们会解决的。

So I think there's just like a market structure maturity kind of question type thing, but I think we'll get it.

我觉得我们在代币经济学的讨论上还处于早期阶段，但大方向是对的，这其实让我们的工作轻松了很多。

I think we're I think we're early in the sophistication of this token economic conversation, but we're more or less directionally going in the right way, which I think is it actually makes our job a lot easier.

比如，我们一直在少数几个资产上重仓。

Like, we've been, you know, strongly positioned in a handful of assets.

过去六个月，只有少数几个资产是那种，如果你相信这个逻辑，那其实挺容易判断的。

It's like the last six months, there's only been a handful that are like, if you believe this, then there's only it's it's actually been kinda easy.

但情况会变，会成熟，事情会不断发展。

But it'll change, and it'll mature, and things will develop.

所以，Guy，感谢你抽出时间。

So, Guy, thanks for your time.

算是漂亮的回归吧。

Amazing comeback, if you will.

我之前可能更悲观一些。

I was probably once more on the negative side.

如果你从我们这里听到过那种话，抱歉了。

So if you ever heard that from us, apologies.

但坚定地说，Ethena的看多者们，我喜欢你们在做的事情。

But firmly, Ethena Bulls, love what you guys are doing.

喜欢你们的热情，兄弟，谢谢你们来。

Love your energy, man, and thanks for coming out.

太棒了。

Awesome.

很高兴见到你们。

Nice to you guys.

不错。

Cool.

谢了，兄弟。

Thanks, man.