伊利娅·波洛苏金：NEAR 已准备好迎接量子时代（完整论文）

我们需要隐私。

We need privacy.

我们需要私密的人工智能。

We need private AI.

我们需要私密的资金。

We need private money.

我们需要团结起来，真正把Web3和市场的其他部分连接起来。

We need to unite and really kind of connect not just Web three, but also, like, rest of the market.

我是Robbie，你现在收看的是The Roll Up。

My name is Robbie, and you're watching The Roll Up.

今天，我想请大家订阅、评论、点赞，并支持我们的频道。

And today, I'm asking you to please subscribe, comment, like, and support our channel.

我们采访数字资产、数字金融和代币化领域中最优秀、最聪明的一些人。

We interview some of the best and brightest minds in digital assets, digital finance, and tokenization.

我们做这些是为了你们。

We are doing this for you.

所以请大家坐好，放松，享受节目，非常感谢你们的支持。

So please sit back, relax, enjoy the show, and thank you so much for all your support.

接下来，我们要请出伊利亚。

And now we're gonna have Illia.

他是……

One of the...

我称他为AI的奠基人之一。

I I I call him one of the founding fathers of AI.

我觉得他确实是。

I think he truly is.

伊利亚，欢迎来到节目。

Illia, welcome to the show.

奠基叔叔。

Founding uncles.

AI的奠基叔叔。

Founding uncles of AI.

他是一位……

He's a...

他就是那位叔叔。

He is the uncle.

他有两个孩子。

He's he's got two kids.

我们从艾莉那里拿到了这本书。

We got this book from Ellie

关于零知识证明的。

About zero knowledge proofs.

我们团队后面的亚历克斯拿着你的那块牌匾，上面写着“注意力就是你所需要的一切”。

Alex on our team back there has your plaque with the attention is all that you need.

那块牌匾会挂在纽约的办公室里。

That's gonna go up in the office in in in New York City.

很棒的活动。

Great events.

对NEAR来说，这阵子真是大日子。

Big couple weeks for NEAR.

听着，哥们，你是个谦虚的人，伊利亚。

Look, man, you're a humble guy, Illia.

你非常聪明，也非常谦虚。

You're you're very smart, very humble.

你对NEAR过去这六到八周的表现感觉怎么样？

How do you feel about the last, like, six to eight weeks about NEAR?

我觉得整个市场都开始关注NEAR了。

I feel like the whole market has woken up to NEAR.

我到处都能看到NEAR的消息。

I mean, I've seen NEAR everywhere.

人们都在说，就像Zcash是这个牛市里的比特币一样。

People are calling it like Zcash is a Bitcoin of this bull market.

NEAR就是以太坊。

NEAR is Ethereum.

事情发展得太快了。

Like, things are getting crazy quick.

谦虚地说，你现在怎么看？

Humbly, kinda like, where do you see things now?

你觉得接下来会怎么发展？

Where do you see things going?

我们现在处于什么阶段？

Where are we at?

你知道NEAR的。

I mean, you you know NEAR.

我们过去大概八年里，一直在牛熊市中建设。

We've been building sort of like bull and bear through, you know, past, like, what, eight years?

对。

Yep.

如果把之前的AI也算进去，那就是九年了。

Nine years if you include the AI before that.

所以我们有一个愿景。

So we have a vision.

世界在变，我们需要去中心化的技术。

The world is changing, and we need the decentralized technology.

我们需要隐私。

We need privacy.

我们需要私密的人工智能。

We need private AI.

我们需要私密的货币。

We need private money.

我们需要联合起来，真正连接的不只是Web3，还有其他的市场。

We need to unite and really kind of connect not just Web three, but also, like, the rest of the markets.

所以看到越来越多的人加入，真的很令人兴奋。

And so it's exciting to see more and more people joining.

这显然对产品有巨大的飞轮效应。

It's obviously, like, has massive flywheel effects on products.

当然，市场价格很重要，因为它能给每个人带来更多资源，吸引更多关注，所以看到这些动态真的很令人兴奋，我们会继续把这些转化为更多产品和更多价值。

Obviously, you know, market price is important because it gives everyone more resources, attracts more attention, And so it's exciting to kinda have all this action, and we're gonna continue turning that into more products, more value.

是的，兄弟。

Yeah, man.

我觉得，现在市场和对我来说都变得非常明显的一点是……

I mean, I think, like, the thing that has just become such such so apparent to the market and to me is that...

我们今天和Qantas一起在这里参加量子隐私日。

I mean, we're here at this quantum privacy day with Qantas.

他们刚刚推出的代币表现非常好。

They just launched their tokens doing exceptionally well.

恭喜他们。

Big congrats to them.

NEAR Intents和near.com的体验，以及隐私交易永续合约、兑换和跨链桥的黑盒，简直完美。

You know, the the NEAR Intents and the near.com experience, the black box of privacy of trading perps, swaps, bridging is just immaculate.

真的太棒了。

It's it's so good.

就是，简直……

Like, it is just...

就是……

It it's just...

Drukbot是我的AI助手。

Drukbot is my AI harness.

Near.com是我的链上工具。

Near.com is my is my onchain harness.

但再往大了说，我们昨晚喝酒时聊过，你们正在进入一个新世界，你们正在成为这轮牛市链上投机资产的交易平台。

But extrapolating that, we talked about this last night over some wine in that there is a new world that you guys are getting into where it's like you are becoming the trading venue for the onchain speculative assets of this bull market.

Qantas就是其中之一，我们还在聊另一个代币Pearl。

Qantas being one, we're talking about that other token Pearl.

我很好奇，你怎么看待NEAR Intents，它是不是你曾经那个更宏大的链抽象愿景？

I'm just curious how you think about NEAR Intents as this kind of broader chain abstraction vision that you once had.

现在它终于要实现了。

Now it's coming to fruition.

Qantas就是一个很好的例子。

Qantas is a fantastic example.

它没有在中心化交易所上市。

There's no centralized exchange listings.

你只能在Safe Trade上买到它，但它是在NEAR Intents上的。

You can only buy it on safe trade, but it's it's on NEAR Intents.

它就在near.com上。

It's on near.com.

我今早和昨晚都在换这个。

I was swapping into it this morning and last night.

简直太容易了，而且流动性很好。

It's easy as hell, and there's good liquidity.

这一切发生得太快了。

It happened so fast.

跟我们聊聊你对NEAR Intents和near.com的愿景吧，大概就是如何启动这个行业下一个时代的高质量投机资产。

Just like talk to us about what that vision is for NEAR Intents and and near.com to bootstrap, I guess, the high quality speculative assets of this next era of this industry.

就是说，NEAR Intents 有点像是……

Mean, so NEAR Intents kind of...

最宏观的愿景，对吧，就是它是一个市场的市场。

The broadest form of vision, right, is like it's a market of markets.

它实际上就是一个通用的聚合器，让任何人想交易任何东西、在任何地方，都能通过找到最佳对手方来完成交易。

It's it's effectively this universal aggregator of anyone wanting to trade anything anywhere and being able to do it through finding the best counterparty to do it.

我说的不只是加密货币，也不只是物理或数字资产。

And I'm not talking about just crypto, I'm not talking about just physical digital assets.

如果你想订个酒店房间，或者想在火星上建个基地，对。

If you want to order a room in a hotel, if you wanna, you know, build a base on Mars Yeah.

没错，总会有一个对手方愿意做这件事。

Right, there's gonna be a counterparty that will be willing to do that.

马斯克就会说，行。

You know, Elon Musk is like, okay.

没问题。

Cool.

我会用两万亿美元来做这件事。

I will do it for, you know, $2,000,000,000,000.

所以这就是最宏大的愿景。

So that's a that's a broadest form of vision.

我们一开始也是从，比如说，好吧。

And we kinda started with, like, okay.

链上阻塞确实是第一个问题，它……

Chain obstruction is, like, really first problem that...

我们在加密领域已经有一段时间了。

I mean, we've been in crypto for a while.

这是你能想象到的最痛苦的事情。

This is, the most painful thing you can imagine.

现在我们刚刚加入了股票。

Then now we just added stocks.

所以现在你聚合的不仅仅是加密货币交易平台。

So now you're aggregating actually not just crypto venues.

现在你实际上有纳斯达克和NEAR证券交易所，我们还会增加更多的交易场所。

You actually now have Nasdaq and NEAR stock exchange, and we're gonna be adding more venues as well.

所以每当你发出一个意图，比如说你想大量买入某个资产，比如主权债券。

So whenever you're sending an intent and you're saying, hey, I wanna, you know, load up on, let's say, sovereign.

求解器就可以说，没问题。

The solvers can be like, cool.

我会在纳斯达克上买。

I'll buy it on Nasdaq.

我会把它代币化，然后送到你的钱包里。

I'll tokenize it and then bring it to your wallet.

所以你实际上不需要立即有链上交易所可用。

So you don't actually need to have immediate onchain exchange available.

你可以实时完成这个操作。

You can actually do this in real time.

同样，对于Qantum或其他资产，也许你现在没有即时流动性，但随着你创造这种需求，越来越多的求解器，可能采取不同的仓位和不同的交易策略，会上线并开始提供这种流动性。

Similarly, you know, Qantum or other assets, maybe you don't have immediate liquidity now, but as you're creating this demand, right, more and more solvers who may be taking different position, different approach to trading can come in online and start providing this liquidity.

所以你是在打开越来越多的不同选项，让这些不同的交易场所和策略可以聚合在一起。下一步就是，对，完全用自然语言来下达意图，比如在纽约给我建一座新的摩天大楼。

So you're kind of opening up more and more different options of how these different venues, these strategies can be aggregated in one And then next step is, yeah, going full on, you know, natural language intent, you know, build me, you know, new skyscraper in New York.

然后系统就会说，好的。

And it's like, okay.

没问题。

Cool.

你懂吧？

You know?

然后分包给一些子代理，他们需要去买那些……

Sub sub Subcontracted to some sub agents who need to buy, you know, the...

比如碳排放额度之类的，还有拿地等等。

Whatever the high credits and whatnot, get the land, etcetera.

但你可以开始看到，这有点像……

But, like, you can start seeing kind of...

这真的是一个市场的市场，它聚合了任何类型的交易活动，但同时也只是把想法变成现实。

This is, like, truly market of markets that, aggregates any type of activity trading, but also just generally willing things into reality.

我觉得越来越多的人和智能体开始意识到这个愿景了。

I think more and more people and agents are starting to realize this vision.

贝拉吉刚才就在大厅外面散步。

I mean, Bellagy was just walking outside the hall.

你通过NEAR把一些非常特别的人聚到了一起。

You know, there's some very special people that you've been able to bring together with NEAR.

你是怎么协调这么多智力资本、物质资本、劳动力，还有智能体和人类的？

How have you been able to coordinate so much intellectual capital, much, you know, physical capital, labor, agentic and human?

你是怎么把NEAR构建成这样一个汇聚了如此多价值的中心点的？

How have you been able to structure NEAR in such a way that it's become this shelling point for for so much value?

有几件事吧。

I mean, there's been few things.

首先，尤其是作为第一层。

One is, especially kinda coming as layer one.

我一直觉得第一层之间的零和博弈其实挺不对味的。

I always felt it's been really, like, kind of misaligned, the zero sum game of layer ones.

对，就像每个人都在说，你应该在我这儿建，你应该在我这儿建。

Right, where, like, everybody was like, oh, you know, you should build on me, you should build on me.

所以真的要摆脱那种心态，变成，好吧，我们和其他一层链、其他区块链、其他应用、其他协议合作得越多，我们整体就越好。

So really removing that kind of mindset and kind of becoming like, okay, well, the more we work together with other layer ones, with other blockchains, other apps, with other kind of protocols, the better we get together.

所以真的要把这个打造成一个，好吧。

And so kind of really creating this as kind of a, okay.

这是一个通用的流动性层。

This is a universal liquidity layer.

大家真的都来加入吧。

Let's actually get on it, everyone.

然后另一方面，当然要和你们合作，和生态里更多能传播这个信息的人合作。

And then on the other side, obviously, you know, partnering with you guys, partnering with more, kind of folks across the ecosystem who can actually spread the message.

我觉得这历来是NEAR最大的挑战之一。

I think that's been historically one of the biggest NEAR challenges.

我们一直在做很多技术方面的工作。

We've been doing a lot of tech.

我们一直在做很多技术方面的东西。

We've been building a lot of kind of Yep.

产品，但是，怎么让更多人看到呢？你们推出自己的有效借贷产品的时候……

Products, but, how do we get this in front of more people when you guys launched your own effective like lending...

那会儿挺火的。

It was cooking.

顺便说一句，我刚才在后台跟Stony聊了聊，关于把AAVE放到near.com上。

I was just talking to Stony backstage, by the way, side note, about getting AAVE in near.com.

所以我觉得那是一个非常合理的下一步，或者你在上面放一些金库，但是……

So I think that's a very logical next step or, you know, I mean, you know, you give some vaults on there, but the...

因为我们的方向是，比如把我在near.com上的超流动性头寸，放到AAVE里，用它来借款，这样我就不用卖了，等等等等。

Because where we're going is like take my hyper liquid position on near.com, put it into AAVE, borrow against it so I don't have to sell, etcetera etcetera etcetera.

我在near.com上有股票，放到我的AAVE里，用我的股票来借款。

I got stocks on near.com, put it into my AAVE, borrow against my stocks.

什么应用都行。

Whatever app.

所以……

So...

或者直接拿现金，不用交税，但我会……

I mean, or or just get cash, you don't to pay taxes, but I'll...

这就是加杠杆。

Which is levering up.

我会帮你联系Stonie。

I will I will connect you to Stonie.

我相信你们已经在聊了。

I'm sure you guys already talking.

但是，量子，Justin Drake发了个帖子，我知道我们只剩一两分钟了。

But quantum, Justin Drake puts out a post, I know we have like one or two more minutes.

我觉得我们时间有点紧。

I think we're just a bit of ton on time here.

Justin Drake发帖说，你……

Justin Drake puts out a post saying that you...

我们需要准备好进入防御模式。

We need to prepare to go bunker mode.

Near.com或者NEAR Protocol或者NEAR AI回应说，NEAR已经准备好了x、y和z来应对这个。

Near.com or NEAR Protocol or NEAR AI responds, NEAR's got x y and z that is ready for this.

为什么NEAR对量子准备好了？

Why is NEAR ready for quantum?

那是什么意思？

What does that mean?

什么是防御...

What is bunk...

NEAR是一个防御堡垒吗？

Is NEAR a bunker?

比如，你们在建设...

Like, are you building...

就是防御堡垒。

It's bunkers.

首先是在建一个避难所。

It's building a bunker first.

好的。

Okay.

我只想补充一点，我们还没有……

I just wanna add one layer of this, and we don't have...

我们之前稍微聊了一下市场，但没具体说价格，今天因为这种威胁感，所有东西都在跌。

I mean, you know, we talked about the market a little bit, but without the prices in particular, everything is red today based on this perceived threat.

就因为贾斯汀。

Just because of Justin.

不只是因为……

Not just because...

只是……

It just...

我觉得……

I think...

不是。

No.

而且Vitalik刚发了推文，这也没帮上忙。

And Vitalik just tweeted it's not helping.

所以你看。

So look.

有一点是，NEAR似乎和其他所有币都不一样，可能是因为大家觉得它有量子安全性，而其他币则被认为有量子漏洞。

The one thing is that NEAR seems like it's diverging from everything else potentially because of this perceived quantum security, whereas everything else is this perceived quantum vulnerability.

也许吧，但是……

I mean, maybe men, but...

怎么……

How...

就是……

I mean, just...

也许你可以解释一下，为什么会出现这种分化，实际情况是怎样的。

Maybe you can just illustrate, like, what is the reality of, like, why this diversion seems to be happening.

所以具体到量子这一块，其实有几件事。

So, I mean, on a quantum specific, right, there's, like, a few things.

第一，我们在2018年设计NEAR的时候，就已经把量子考虑进去了。

One is we've designed NEAR with actually quantum in mind in 2018.

我们当时就想，嘿。

We're like, hey.

你看。

Look.

量子计算机迟早会来的。

Quantum computers will come at some points.

密码学会变。

Cryptography will change.

我们想准备好，随时能调整和更新到我们需要的任何密码学方案。

We wanna be ready to adjust and update to whatever cryptography we need.

所以NEAR账户有一种非常特殊的账户模型，它允许你轮换密钥、添加密钥、拥有多个密钥，比如...

And so NEAR accounts have a very kind of specific account model, which allows you to rotate keys, to add keys, to have multiple keys, like, to...

并且使用不同的加密技术。

And use different cryptography.

具体来说，那段代码就是我写的。

And specifically, I I literally wrote that code.

实际上，添加一个新的加密曲线只需要大约200行代码。

It takes effectively, like, 200 lines of code to add a new cryptographic curve.

所以今年早些时候，当那种能从公钥恢复私钥的新算法开始出现时，我们就觉得，好吧。

And so earlier this year, when kind of the, like, the new algorithm on solve effectively, you know, recovering private key from public key, kinda started dropping, we're like, okay.

是时候真正开始推出后量子加密了。

It's time to start actually shipping post quantum.

现在也有了标准化的实现。

There's now standardized, implementations as well.

于是我们在NEAR上推出了第一个有效的Dilithium，也就是MLDSA加密曲线。

And so we launched the first effective delithium, which is MLDSA cryptographic curve on NEAR.

我记得是在七月上主网的。

It went main net, I think, July.

所以现在，任何人都可以随时更新自己的账户，而不需要转移任何资产，也不需要从金库中提取、交税或者做其他任何事情。

And so you can, anyone individually right now can effectively update their account without moving any assets, needing to like, you know, withdraw from vaults, pay taxes, do any of this thing.

你现在就可以直接把密钥升级为后量子版本。

You can literally just update the keys to be post quantum right now.

比如在Meteor Wallet上，真的就是点一个按钮的事。

Like, on Meteor Wallet, it's like literally one button.

所以这是一个巨大的变化，因为另一种选择是你需要进入避难模式，需要想办法找到新的密钥派生方式，需要管理所有事情。

So that is the massive change because, you know, the alternative is you need to bunker mode, you need to, like, figure out the new way to derive keys, you need to manage everything.

这真的需要很多额外的专业知识才能做到。

Like, it it requires a lot of extra sophistication to do that.

所以这是第一步。

And so that's step one.

我们有一个多步骤的计划，逐步添加更多其他系统，以及为那些想使用不同加密方式的人提供其他密码学方案。

We have a whole, like, multiple steps program to add more and more other, systems as well, as well as other cryptography for people who want to use, different.

但MLDSA目前，为了明确起见，它是整个互联网上一直在使用的那种。

But MLDSA right now, for for clarity, that's the one that's been used across the whole Internet.

好的。

Okay.

比如你现在用的Chrome浏览器，他们已经更新到这个标准了。

Like, the Chrome browser that you use right now, they already updated to it.

这实际上已经是现实世界里的一个标准了。

This is effectively a standard in the real world.

而NEAR已经具备了这个。

And NEAR has this.

所以NEAR，我们用这个来做加密。

And so NEAR, we use this for cryptography.

所以你的意思是，把资产放到NEAR上，至少和迁移密钥、进入避难模式一样安全，甚至更好？

And so you're saying that going to NEAR and putting your assets on NEAR is at least as good, if not better, as migrating your keys and going bunker mode?

所以你可以……

So you you...

实际上你可以做的，就是让你的NEAR账户由后量子加密来保护。

What you can do effectively is, like, you can have your NEAR account with the post quantum cryptography holding it.

而且NEAR账户可以持有以太坊、比特币以及其他链上的资产。

And the NEAR account can then hold asset hold assets on Ethereum, Bitcoin Oh, and I other chains.

所以……

So...

你不用担心这个。

And you don't need to worry about it.

明白了。

I see.

我们需要处理这些问题。

We will need we will need to, like, deal resolve them.

但如果你们……

But if you

你们遇到麻烦的话，我是不是也会遇到麻烦？

guys get in trouble, aren't I getting in trouble?

你懂我的意思吧？

If you know what I mean?

比如说，如果我的资产通过NEAR放在以太坊上，而以太坊出了什么问题，你们也不会来帮我。

Like, if my assets are on Ethereum through NEAR and something happens to Ethereum, it's not like you guys are gonna help me.

如果以太坊真出了什么事，你也不用担心。

I mean, if if if if something happens to Ethereum, but, you know, you don't need to worry.

比如说，如果你是通过NEAR持有的。

Like, if you're holding it through NEAR

比如说，我们会构建……

Like, we're gonna structure...

团队会处理这些事情的。

Teams are gonna take care of this.

所以我们会……

And so we're gonna...

哇。

Wow.

黑天鹅模式。

Black swagging mode.

而且你也知道，我们在构建很多系统，包括密码学、智能合约，还有通过Shield进行主动分析，来实时检测异常情况。

And as as you know, we're building a lot of systems both on, like, cryptography, on smart contracts, and on proactive analysis with Shield to actually detect when things are happening.

所以，我明白了。

So, like I see.

我们的观点是，你可以通过near.com来持有资产。

Our our point is, like, look, you can hold things through, like, near.com.

你可以持有所有这些资产。

You can hold all these assets.

你可以进行交易。

You can trade.

同时你还可以保持隐私，顺便说一句，这还能隐藏你的公钥。

You can be private as well, which, by the way, hides your public key.

甚至没有什么可担心的。

There's nothing to drive even.

我

I

对，没错。

mean Right.

即使不是后量子，但后量子也是两倍。

Even for non post quantum, but for post quantum two.

现在，我们就可以和所有这些链合作了。

And now, then we can go and work with all those chains.

比如，我们刚和Justin做了一期播客，实际上是在考他密码学方面的东西，是的。

Like, we just had a podcast with Justin who's actually grilling him on cryptography, making and Yeah.

他们打算用什么之类的。

Kind of what they're gonna use.

所以我们实际上确保每个人的资产都安全，

So we actually make sure that we secure everybody's assets on

在这方面也是。

this as well.

Illia，谢谢你抽出时间，兄弟。

Illia, thanks for your time, man.

活动很棒。

Great event.

感谢一切。

Thanks for everything.

很荣幸。

It's been a pleasure.

让我们继续成长吧，兄弟。

And let's keep let's keep growing, man.

这……

It's...

我们继续吧。

Let's get on.

这只是开始。

This is just the beginning.

所以……

So...

好的。

Alright.