Sandy Kaul：第一轮机构牛市已经开始（现在由强手主导）

如果你从来没听过桑迪·考尔，那你今天肯定会笑得合不拢嘴，我们也会玩得很开心。

If you never heard from Sandy Kaul, then you're gonna have a laugh, a smile, and we're gonna have some damn fun today.

这点我可以保证。

I'll tell you that much.

代币化的发展速度确实加快了。

Tokenization has simply accelerated.

我不能直接说出那个券商或公司的名字，但可能跟桑迪有关的人说过，他们想在2027年底前把一万亿的代币化货币市场基金放到链上，结算时间差不多是一天。

I cannot say the direct quote or the brokerage or the firm, but maybe somebody affiliated with Sandy said that they're trying to do a yard onchain of tokenized money market settling at almost, I think, a day, by the end of twenty twenty seven.

所以，我们正在快速推进。

So we're we're moving.

我们现在说的是万亿级别的规模了，桑迪。

We're talking about yards now, Sandy.

她今天也在场。

She's in the house.

我太喜欢桑迪了。

I love Sandy so much.

她太棒了。

She's amazing.

桑迪，很高兴你回来。

Sandy, great to have you back.

能来这里太开心了。

It's so fun to be here.

这总是我最喜欢的采访之一。

One of my favorite interviews always.

是的。

Yes.

太棒了。

Amazing.

好吧，那我们来回顾一下。

Well, catch this up, I guess.

我是新来的。

I'm the new one here.

我有……

I have...

我……

I...

挺好的

It's good

很高兴认识你。

to meet you.

我挺

I'm lot

有趣的。

fun.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

你在酒店房间里采访过。

You have interviewed In the hotel room.

至少两三次。

Least two or three times.

在百慕大。

In Bermuda.

我想那次我也出去了。

I think I stepped out for that one too.

天哪。

Oh my goodness.

桑迪，你布置得最好。

Have the best setup, Sandy.

你也是。

And you

会错过好玩的事。

will miss the fun.

我确实有。

I have.

我，我

I I

久仰大名。

have heard so much about you.

所以很高兴

So it's great

见到你。

to meet you.

而且我，我想……

And I I wanna...

我，我很想跟你叙叙旧。

I'm I'd love to get catched up.

跟我们说说吧。

Catch us up.

百慕大那次，大概四个月前了吧？

I mean, Bermuda was, what, four months ago?

当时我们正处在熊市深处。

We were kinda deep in the bear.

对。

Yep.

市场情绪很低落，但你那边机构方面一直在稳步推进。

Vibes were down, but institutional side from your side has been a constant progress.

对。

Yep.

跟我们说说吧。

Catch us up.

那你看啊。

So look.

我很高兴市场一直比较低调，因为我们正在吸纳业内一些最优秀的人才。

I've been thrilled that the markets have been a little, like, low key because we are accumulating some of the best talent in the industry.

我们坚信，这将是未来两代人投资组合中最好的投资机会之一。

We are huge believers that this is gonna be one of the best investment opportunities for peoples in portfolios probably for the next two generations.

我们正处于这个新投资时期的开端，所以我们正在组建华尔街顶尖的加密货币投资团队，这个团队会继续成长和发展，明年我们还会推出一些令人兴奋的产品。

And we are so at the beginning of this new period of investing, and so we are putting together the top crypto investing team across the street that's gonna continue to grow and build, and we'll have some exciting launches next year.

好，开始吧。

Here we go.

但这是我们建设的时候，因为我认为现在正是主流认识到加密货币和AI一样重要的技术的时候。

But this is our time to build because this is the moment that I think we see mainstream understanding that crypto is as important a set of technologies as AI.

世界上每个机构都有很好的条件从AI增长中获益，但他们在加密货币方面的配置远远不足。

And every institution in the world is well positioned to benefit from AI growth in their portfolio, but they are way under positioned.

极度不足。

Extremely underexposed.

极度不足。

Extremely underexposed.

所以感觉我们现在正处于《清晰法案》之后，虽然还没有完全尘埃落定，但我们已经站在了代币化、超级周期和机构FOMO的风口浪尖上。

And so it feels like where we are right now is, you know, we're on the heels of the Clarity Act, not reaching closure, but we're on the precipice of tokenization, super cycle, and institutional FOMO.

既然我们正处在这种变动之中，最让你兴奋的是什么？

And and so given that that is sort of the flux that we find ourselves in, what excites you the most?

你发现自己把最多的注意力放在哪里？

Where do you find yourself spending the most attention?

你重点关注什么？

What are you focused on?

最让我兴奋的是，我有可能把咨询建议直接带到钱包里。

So what excites me the most is this new potential that I am going to be able to move the point of advice to the wallet.

我的钱包将成为我与世界交互的界面。

That my wallet is going to become my interface to the world.

它会合并我的支付钱包。

It's gonna merge my payment wallet.

我的加密货币钱包将合二为一。

My crypto wallet's gonna become one in the same.

它会成为我在这个世界上的接口，就像今天我用智能手机作为我的接口一样。

It's gonna be my interface that I use in the world just like I use my smartphone as my interface to the world today.

这个钱包会和我的智能手机一样重要。

That wallet is gonna be as critical as my smartphone.

所有东西都会通过我的钱包来到我这里。

And everything comes to me in my wallet.

我的投资建议、投资组合建议，那些在我的应用里帮我重新平衡投资组合的智能体，那些优化我投资组合中每一项资产的智能体。

My investment advice, my portfolio advice, the agents that gonna be rebalancing my portfolio in my app, the agents that are gonna be optimizing every asset in my portfolio and my app.

所有这些都会来到我这里，因为这是在AI驱动的未来里我成功的方式。

All of that is gonna come to me because this is going to be the way I succeed in an AI driven future.

我的数据是有价值的。

My data's worth money.

我的钱包是有价值的，人们会为它提供服务，这就是我谋生的方式。

My wallet is worth money, and people are gonna service it, and that's how I'm gonna make my living.

你觉得我们现在可用的钱包解决方案，能应对我们面临的未来吗？

Do you think the wallet solutions that we have available to us right now are adequate for the future that we're faced with?

它们正在进化，而且它们……

They are evolving, and they are...

它们看到了前景。

They see the picture.

对吧？

Alright?

它们看到了愿景，也明白要实现这个愿景需要做什么。

They see the vision, and they understand what needs to happen to get us there.

所以即使《清晰法案》已经提交了，我也不在乎，因为它是因为道德问题而失败的。

And that's why even with the Clarity Act having filed, I don't care because it failed because of ethics.

它失败不是因为人们对如何处理资产本身有分歧。

It didn't fail because people disagree about how we should operate with the assets themselves.

所以那只是时间问题。

So that's just a matter of time.

好的，桑迪。

Alright, Sandy.

让我们乐观起来吧。

Let's get bullish.

让我们在这里乐观起来。

Let's get bullish here.

富兰克林邓普顿在链上有大量资产。

Franklin Templeton's got a ton of assets onchain.

市场看起来很好。

Market looks great.

就富兰克林邓普顿的目标而言，你的北极星是什么？

You know, what are your north stars here for Franklin Templeton goals wise?

我们来谈谈数字吧。

Let's talk numbers.

你今年年底前想在链上实现什么？

What are you trying to get on chain by the end of the year?

你对明年有什么展望？

What's your outlook for next year?

有多少资产？

How many assets?

哪些类型的资产？

What asset types?

我们来说说，嗯……

Let's get let's get kind of...

就是说，你懂的

Let's get, you know

我们刚刚超过3万亿……

So we're just over 3,000,000,000,000...

30亿。

3,000,000,000.

抱歉。

Sorry.

那是超过3万亿。

That's over 3,000,000,000,000.

好了，就这样。

And there we go.

没错。

Exactly.

我们拿到了

We got got

刚超过3

Just over 3

当时。

at the time.

资产刚超过30亿。

Just over 3,000,000,000 in assets.

我希望到年底能远远超过50亿。

I would like to see that well over five by end of the year.

我觉得到明年这个时候，这个数字有可能翻倍甚至翻三倍。

I think that we could potentially double or triple that number by this time next year.

哇。

Wow.

那是什么推动这种增长的？

And what drives that growth?

推动这种增长的是我们拥有八十年历史的可信品牌，在全球范围内管理着1.8万亿美元的资产。

What's driving that growth is the combination of a trusted brand name with an eighty year history that operates globally at 1,800,000,000,000.

这次我用对“万亿”这个词了。

I'm using trillion correctly this time.

全球资产达数万亿，而且我们是一家数字化原生的公司。

Trillion of assets globally, with a firm that operates digitally native.

别忘了，我们推出了第一支代币化基金，从2021年4月开始就全天候运行。

Don't forget, we launched our first tokenized fund and have been running it twenty four seven since April 2021.

不会吧，桑迪。

No way, Sandy.

我之前都不知道。

I didn't know that.

我们是一家数字原生的公司，但背后是全球知名、备受尊敬、管理着1.8万亿美元资产的资产管理公司。

We are a digitally native player who happens to sit within a highly respected, globally known, $1,800,000,000,000 global asset manager.

所以这就是吸引资产到我们这里来的原因。

So that's what's gonna attract the assets to us.

太好了。

Let's go.

你看，我就喜欢这样。

See, I love that.

想想那些学习的机会。

Think of the learning moments.

比如，这些年来，因为你们是最早，甚至可能是第一个将基金代币化的，你们已经积累了经验，而其他人刚开始代币化、进入市场时也会遇到这些，但你们已经在这里很久了。

Like, over the years, given that you were one of the first ones, if not the first ones, to tokenize these funds, you've had the experience that others will face as they start to tokenize and enter the market, but you've been here for a while.

那么，你们有哪些学习心得，是别人很快也会遇到，并且最终大家都会明白的？

So what have been the learning moments that you think others will soon face and realize that, you know, everyone will come to understand?

这听起来很简单，但最大的一个心得就是，在加密货币领域，大家都用稳定币或加密货币来申购和赎回投资。

So it sounds so elementary, but, like, one of the biggest learnings is in crypto, everyone subscribes and redeems to investments using stablecoins or crypto.

对于受监管的投资产品，你需要使用法定现金。

For a regulated investment product, you need to use fiat cash.

所以把稳定币或加密货币转换成现金，是运营的关键部分。

So moving the stablecoins or crypto into cash is, like, a critical part of

对，绝对是。

being able to run Definitely.

一个加密货币投资业务。

A crypto investing business.

这太基础了。

That's so elementary.

但我觉得我们学到的其他一些教训是，你必须要有创意。

But I'd say some of the other lessons we've learned is that you gotta be creative.

因为我们是数字原生的，而且是绝对第一个做这件事的，我们已经开始重新构想。

Because we are digitally native and we were the absolute first to ever do this, we have already started to reenvision.

所以我们的货币市场基金，可以在日内计算利息。

So our money market fund, we can calculate interest intraday.

所以如果你持有三个小时零六秒，你就能得到三个小时零六秒的利息。

So, you know, if you hold it for three hours and six seconds, you get three hours and six seconds worth of interest.

对。

Yep.

现在没人能做到

Nobody can do

这一点。

that today.

所以现在没有闲置资金这回事了？

So there's no no such thing as idle capital now?

没有闲置

No such thing as idle

资金……

capital....

在桑迪·考尔的世界里，她的投资组合里没有一分钱是闲置的。

Sandy Kaul's world, there is not a single cent in her portfolio that will be idle.

我跟你说，确实是这样。

I'll tell you that.

不光不能闲着，还得给我赚不少钱才行。

Not only that's not idle, it better be earning me a lot.

这就是生产性资产的理论。

This is the productive asset thesis.

这就是……

This is...

我觉得大家都有点……

And I think everyone sort of...

一旦我们理解了链上可以实现的可编程性，这真的是一个恍然大悟的时刻。

It's a huge light bulb moment once we understand the programmability of what's possible on chain.

因为我们把这些闲置资本都利用起来，把它们变成生产性资产。

Because we take all this idle capital, we turn it into productive assets.

没错。

That's right.

这适用于所有风险等级的资产。

And that goes for assets all across the risk spectrum.

没错。

That's right.

而且有了AI，对吧，AI和加密的交汇点是我们从现在起每天都要讨论的话题。

And with AI, right, and this intersection of AI and crypto is something we should talk about every day from now on.

当然。

Sure.

因为有了AI代理，我可以信任我的代理每时每刻都在扫描每一个抵押池、每一个DeFi池、每一个交易所，为我找到最优的交易，然后代表我执行。

Because with AI agents, I can trust that my agent is scanning every single collateral pool, every single DeFi pool, every single exchange, every second of the day to find me the best possible deal, and it is then executing on that on my behalf.

我不需要再亲自管理我的投资组合了。

I do not need to be managing my portfolio.

我只需要设定目标和预期，然后它就会自动为我执行。

I just need to set the goals and set the expectations, and then this is gonna self execute for me.

这真的会非常令人兴奋。

It's really gonna be so exciting.

你等着瞧吧。

You'll see.

我得问问你，就是站在投资者的角度想一想。

And I gotta ask you just kind of thinking about, like, putting your investor hat on.

我们经历过了这轮熊市。

You know, we've gone through this bear market.

你们在熊市期间，链上管理的资产规模一直在增长。

You guys have grown your assets under management onchain throughout the bear.

显然，牛市会带来更多的投机行为。

Obviously, bull markets bring more speculation.

我觉得我们现在非常确定处于牛市之中。

I think we're very firmly in a bull market.

今天美联储可能会加息。

We've got a Fed rate hike today potentially.

我觉得这无所谓。

I don't think it matters.

到年底会更高。

Higher by the end of the year.

我觉得明年会非常积极。

I think next year is gonna be very positive.

我们有太多催化剂，太多顺风因素。

We have too many catalysts, too many tailwinds.

从投资者的角度来看，我们该如何思考，才能充分利用这个即将到来的周期或牛市？

What can we think about from the investor perspective to make the most of this upcoming cycle or bull market?

没错。

That's right.

我们该如何考虑优化投资组合和仓位，以应对我认为的加密货币首次机构牛市？

How do we think about optimizing portfolio and optimizing positioning for this kind of what I consider crypto's first institutional bull run.

作为多年来一直管理资金的人，你需要明白过去一年发生了什么。

So as someone who has managed money for many, many years in my career, you know, what you have to understand is what has just occurred in the past year.

我们已经清除了市场中的投机者。

We have washed out the speculators in the market.

市场已经从所谓的弱手，也就是那些会快速转移资金的人，转移到了强手，也就是那些因为现在有了很好的入场点而会把资金留在市场里的人。

The market has moved from what they call weak hands, which are people that were gonna move their money quickly into strong hands, which are people who are gonna leave that money money in because they now have great entry points.

所以你需要明白，当市场最安静、最无聊的时候，就是进入这些市场的最佳时机。

So you need to understand that when the markets are the most quiet and boring is the best time to get into those markets.

否则，你就会在市场上涨的时候追高。

Because otherwise, you end up chasing the market as the market goes higher.

如果你只在牛市开始后才开始建仓，那你就让自己处于一个非常不利的位置。

If you only start establishing positions once the bull run has begun, you put yourself at a real disadvantage.

而如果你现在就能布局并保持耐心，之后获得的回报将远远超过等待的代价。

Whereas if you can position and be patient now, the rewards you get on the other side of that are going to more than make up for the weight.

所以，要清楚我们现在处于什么阶段。

So understand where we are.

我们已经触底，或者说正在筑底，而且这些底部是由强大的机构仓位支撑的，他们不会轻易被震出去。

We have put a bottom or are making a bottom into place into strong institutionally established positions that they are not gonna get shaken out of.

我完全同意，而且……

I totally agree, and that...

这正是我想说的，我觉得现在的资金粘性更强，不太受波动影响，也更愿意把眼光放长远。

That's what I was gonna get to is I just think that the capital now is stickier, less swayed by volatility, and more willing to zoom out.

你同意吗？

Would you agree with that?

完全同意。

A 100%.

而且，当人们开始对预测市场感到兴奋——那确实很有趣，我自己也很喜欢——还有对代币化证券感到兴奋，我认为这预示着这个领域未来会有多大。

And as people have been, like, getting excited about prediction markets, which are super fun, I love them myself, they've been getting excited about tokenized securities, which is really, I think, a harbinger of how big this space is going to become.

他们却忽略了加密货币。

They've been ignoring crypto.

但现在不是忽视加密货币的时候。

And this is not the time to ignore crypto.

现在是布局的时候。

This is the time to position.

所以，当我们考虑布局和跑赢市场时，我认为从长期来看，最赚钱的一件事就是复利。

And so as we think about positioning and outperformance, one of the things that I think is most lucrative as we think about a long term time horizon is compounding.

你觉得行业里哪些部分，哪些方面，或者……

What do you think are the parts of the industry, the facets or the...

或者说，行业里哪些小领域最有可能在未来实现指数级的复利增长？

Or or the little pockets of the industry that are most ripe for exponential compounding as we go forward?

说实话，我非常看好某些新型的去中心化商业模式。

Look, I am a huge believer in certain new decentralized business models.

所以我觉得，凡是跟去中心化数字身份相关的，都是巨大的机会。

So I think anything that has to do with decentralized digital identity, huge opportunity space.

凡是跟智能体AI和微支付相关的，也都是巨大的机会。

Anything having to do with agentic AI and micro payments, huge opportunity space.

还有跟后量子计算和密码学相关的，也就是能加强安全基础设施的，同样是巨大的机会。

Anything having to do with post quantum computing and codes, right, being able to strengthen the security infrastructure, huge opportunity space.

所以我们已经超越了比特币主导的阶段，比特币仍然是主要的资产。

So we are moving past the Bitcoin leads, and Bitcoin is the predominant asset.

比特币永远都会是一个重要的资产。

Bitcoin is going to be an important asset always.

但我们需要明白的是，生态系统其他部分的基本投资逻辑已经强化到这样的程度，它们正成为你投资组合中非常重要的增长机会。

But what we need to understand is that the fundamental investment case for other parts of the ecosystem has strengthened to such an extent that these are becoming really important growth opportunities that you should have in your portfolio.

我想深入探讨一下你提到的第一个点。

I I wanna double click on the first one that you mentioned.

这些去中心化身份协议，根据我们听到的关于过户代理监管的所有信息，显得特别相关。

These decentralized identity protocols feels particularly relevant based on everything that we've heard about around transfer agent regulation

还有升级和现代化，是的。

And the upgrade and modernization Yep.

美国证券交易委员会规则的KYC身份验证，对。

Of the SEC rules is the KYC identity verification Yeah.

随着这些事物受到监管，它们需要以代币化的方式在区块链和不同资产之间通过KYC。

As these things become regulated, and they need to pass KYC across blockchains and across different assets in a tokenized way.

你看到了什么？

What are you seeing?

你听到了什么？

What are you hearing?

我们第一次真正搭建这个系统时，最好的方法是什么？

What is the best approach as we literally build this out for the first time?

因为感觉这可能是唯一的技术缺口。

Because it feels like this is maybe the one technical gap.

我们在监管方面有很多工作要做，但说到技术解决方案，感觉这就是缺失的那一块。

We have a lot of work to do on the regulatory front, but when it comes to a technical solution, it feels like this is a missing piece.

我们应该怎么看待这个问题？

How should we think about this?

我是CFTC数字资产小组委员会的联合主席，这正是我们在行业里推动的关键点，就是转向基于事件的KYC和反洗钱模式。

So I was the co chairman of the CFTC's digital assets subcommittee, and this is a critical thing that we are advocating for in the industry, which is to go to this idea of an event based KYC AML.

那为什么我不把KYC和反洗钱信息跟我的密钥放在一起呢？毕竟我需要用密钥来签署交易。

So why wouldn't I store my KYC AML information with my key that I need to sign a transaction?

当我签署交易时，我应该能即时检查我的KYC和反洗钱资格，而这应该成为交易被验证的前提条件。

And when I sign that transaction, I should be able to do an instant on the spot check of my KYC AML eligibility, which in turn should be a prerequisite to the transaction being verified.

对。

Yep.

所以我觉得我们需要彻底改变对它在流程中发生位置、发生时间以及如何作为门槛的整个思考方式。

And so I think we need to change the whole thinking about where in the process it occurs, when in the process occurs, and how it acts as a gating item.

因为别忘了，现在所有公司都在做KYC和AML。

Because don't forget today, all these firms do KYC, AML.

如果他们每十八个月才更新一次，对吧。

And if they update it once every eighteen months Right.

这太令人震惊了。

That's shocking.

所以信息可能非常过时。

So it could be so stale.

如果我们能把它做成基于事件的流程，系统就会更安全。

If we can do it as an event based process, it becomes a more secure system.

关于这一点，我最后想说的是可组合性。

And the last point I have on that is composability.

我们怎么——对。

How do we Yeah.

怎么才能让KYC和AML在跨资产、跨链的情况下实现可组合性。

Achieve composability of KYC AML across assets and across chains.

这就是标准变得至关重要的地方。

This is where standards become so critical.

这就是需要整个行业支持某些智能合约模板，真正达成共识，使用共同的语言、共同的数据字段、共同的流程。

This is where having the industry getting behind certain smart contract templates, being able to really agree that we are going to use common language, common data fields, common processes.

这就是解锁的关键。

This is the unlock that's needed.

我刚才在演讲中提到了。

I was talking in the presentation I just made.

我们正在摆脱富兰克林邓普顿自己建基础设施的模式。

We are moving away from a system where Franklin Templeton builds its own infrastructure.

贝莱德自己建基础设施。

BlackRock builds its own infrastructure.

富达自己建基础设施。

Fidelity builds its own infrastructure.

我们现在正进入一个大家都能接入网络的世界，我们需要网络基础设施。

We're moving into a world where we all plug into a network, and we need network infrastructure.

而金融服务所需的网络基础设施，必须是这些智能合约模板，它们能让我们完成必要的监管检查，从而真正打开整个150万亿的

And that network infrastructure for financial services has to be these smart contract templates that allow us to do the regulatory checks that are needed to really open up the entire 150,000,000,000,000 of

资产交易

assets that trade

市场。

for us.

听起来真让人兴奋。

It's an exciting to hear.

我一直很珍惜我们的对话，因为你不仅带来了这个行业需要的乐观和积极，还带来了实实在在的深度和教育性，让我们理解富兰克林邓普顿以及整个机构配置领域是如何看待这类资产的。

Always appreciate our conversations because not only do you bring bullishness, which I think this industry needs, and optimism, but also actual depth and educational kind of power to just understanding how Franklin Templeton and just really this institutional allocator space is thinking about this asset class.

今天气氛有点特别。

Something in the air today.

我不知道是不是

I don't know if it's

是雪崩峰会的原因，还是市场的原因，还是别的什么，反正就是很热闹。

the avalanche summit, if it's just the market, if it's whatever it is, but it's on.

非常感谢。

So thank you so much.

非常感谢你们的邀请。

Thank you guys so much for having

回头见。

See you soon.

非常感谢，桑迪。

Thanks so much, Sandy.