谢尔盖·纳扎罗夫：为何数百万万亿美元的资金正涌入链上（代币化超级周期）

谢尔盖，欢迎回到Sibos。

Sergey, welcome back to Sibos.

很高兴能和你坐下来聊聊。

Pleasure to sit down with you.

上次我们见面是在Link NYC。

Last time we spoke, we were at Link NYC.

那是我们第一次见面。

It was our first time.

这也是我第一次来Sibos。

It's also my first time here at Sibos.

你已经来过这里好几次了。

You've been coming here for a while.

也许你可以跟我们分享一下你的经历，比如看到Sibos的发展、数字资产行业的成长，以及现在这些领域是如何融合的。

Maybe you can take us through the journey a little bit, what it's like, you know, seeing the growth of Sibos, seeing the growth of the digital assets industry, and how you're seeing these worlds converge today.

我已经来这里好几年了。

I've been coming here for a while.

我自己都不记得具体多少年了。

I don't even know exactly how many years.

大概五六年或者七八年，差不多吧。

Five or six or seven years, something like that.

这个会议很棒，因为它基本上是个基础设施大会，大家聚在一起，思考资本市场基础设施的未来。

It's a great conference because it's basically an infrastructure conference where everyone gets together and thinks about the future of the capital markets infrastructure landscape.

我觉得我一直在看到的一个趋势就是数字资产这个话题越来越受关注。

I think what I've consistently seen is the growth of digital assets as a topic.

今年。

This year.

它已经完全不是一个有争议的话题了。

It's not a controversial topic at all.

更多是讨论怎么落地实施。

It's more about how to implement it.

今年在这里看到的另一个有趣话题是AI代理，以及它们如何使用稳定币和链上现金作为支付方式。

The other interesting topic I see here this year is AI agents and their use of stablecoins and onchain cash as a form of payment.

所以我现在其实还看到其他趋势和代币化在互动，这是个好兆头，因为这意味着代币化已经被当作常态接受了。

So I'm actually now even seeing other trends interact with tokenization, which is a good sign because it means that tokenization is already kind of accepted as normal.

说到增长，那真是非常迅猛。

In terms of the growth, it's been massive.

很多很多年前，那些现在叫数字资产公司、区块链公司或加密货币公司的，根本拿不到展位。

Many, many years, digital asset, what they call digital asset companies now, blockchain companies or crypto companies couldn't get any kind of booth.

我们很多年前能拿到展位算是幸运的，因为我们和Swift社区、成员银行以及Swift本身都有很深的合作。

We were lucky many years that we could have a booth because we were, you know, kind of in our very involved with the Swift community and the member banks and Swift itself and so on.

所以今年我们的展位是有史以来最好的。

And so this year's booth is actually the best booth we've ever had.

而且我觉得我们安排的会议数量也是历届最多的。

And I think we have the most meeting set of of any time we've ever had.

所以我觉得在Sibos这里，银行和其他服务提供商的兴趣都达到了一个非常高的点。

So I I would say that we're kind of at at a very big high point here at Sibos in terms of the bank's interest and other service providers' interests.

还有很多技术合作伙伴和全球系统集成合作伙伴，其中一些已经宣布了。

There's also a lot of technology partnerships and global system integration partnerships, some of which that have been announced already.

这些人也来了，我越来越发现他们都需要一个解决方案来简化多链的复杂性。

These folks are also here, and I'm seeing more and more that they all need a solution to abstract away the complexity of multiple chains.

所以我认为，Chainlink 已经被他们中的绝大多数视为那个选定的解决方案。

And so Chainlink, I think, is already viewed by, I would say, vast majority of them as that chosen solution.

我们有很多这样的情况，人们来和我们见面，他们说，我知道 Chainlink。

We have a lot of cases where people come and meet with us and they say, I know about Chainlink.

我已经对它了解很多了。

I already know a lot about it.

我对它很感兴趣，这显然和几年前的情况大不相同。

I'm interested in it, which is obviously very different from where we were even a few years ago.

我想说，现在正是我们收获劳动成果的时候，我们正在享受多年来始终如一、可靠提供者所带来的真正好处，我们是那个提供最佳建议的团队，关于如何实施智能合约，如何实施高级工作流程。

I would say now is like the time where we're harvesting the fruits of our labor and we're reaping the real benefits of so consistently and over so many years being the reliable provider, being the group that provided the best advice on how to implement smart contracts, how to implement advanced workflows.

现在数字资产行业，我想说，已经发展到他们想要做这些高级工作流程的阶段。

And now the digital asset industry, would say has caught up to the point where they want to do those advanced workflows.

他们想要做抵押品管理。

They want to do collateral management.

他们想做存款代币化。

They want to do tokenize deposits.

而且他们希望所有这些功能都能协同工作，我觉得现在人们开始意识到，只有Chainlink才能真正提供这些。

And they want all that stuff to work together, which is something that I think people are realizing now only only Chainlink is really able to provide them.

既然我们在Sibos，而且你和Chainlink都源于Swift社区，我开始意识到，大家认为Chainlink是成员银行和外来银行与Swift账本互动的桥梁。

And given we're at Sibos and given your roots in the Swift community and Chainlink's roots in the Swift community, I'm starting to realize that the perception is that Chainlink is the proxy through which member banks and incoming banks will interact with the Swift Ledger.

通过Chainlink和Swift的合作，也许你可以详细解释一下。

Through the partnership between Chainlink and Swift, maybe you can unpack that.

我们先从那个开始，然后再谈谈你本周发布的其他公告。

We'll get into that to start, and we'll get into some of the other announcements that you made this week.

但也许你可以先解释一下Chainlink和Swift之间的关系，以及你们如何在这个账本上合作。

But maybe you can start to explain and unpack the relationship between Chainlink and Swift and how you're working together on this ledger.

当然。

Sure.

我们和Swift已经合作很多年了。

So we've been collaborating with Swift for many years.

我们和他们合作的消息已经公布了很多。

There's been a lot of clear announcements about our work together with them.

我们也发布了不少信息和设计方案，Swift、我们以及像瑞银这样的大银行一起合作了各种流程。

There's been, clear releases of information and designs where Swift and us and and large banks like UBS have collaborated on various flows.

我们和Swift以及各家银行的合作还在继续，我们也很高兴能以多种方式和他们合作。

Our collaboration with them and and various banks here continues, and we're very excited to be working with them in various ways.

现在的情况其实正是我们之前预测和告诉大家的：会有越来越多的链。

Really, what you have now is is kind of what we predicted and what we said to a lot of folks is that there's gonna be more chains.

这一点我一直这么说，我们也一直这么说。

So that's something that I've consistently said, we've consistently said.

现在你看DTCC发布了他们的抵押品应用链的更多信息，还展示了他们如何深度整合CRE、CCIP、数据源以及其他各种Chainlink组件。

Now you see DTCC has the collateral app chain that they released more information about here, they released also how they're deeply integrating CRE, CCIP, data feeds, and and various other Chainlink components.

Swift Ledger也是Swift一直在推进的项目。

The Swift Ledger is also something that Swift has been working on for a while.

去年他们发布了一些相关信息。

They had some information released last year.

今年又有一些新消息。

There's some more information this year.

以 Swift Ledger 为例，我现在能透露的是，CRE 基本上被用作银行接入 Swift Ledger、在 Ledger 上签名以及执行关键交易的接口。

And in in the case of the the Swift Ledger, the things that I can share now are that CRE is basically being used as an interface for banks to be able to access the Swift Ledger, sign things on the Swift Ledger, do key transactions on the Swift Ledger.

不过从我个人的角度来看，当我审视市面上所有其他能与 Swift Ledger 交互的工具时，它们和那些最终用于与 App Chain 交互的工具类似。

But from my personal perspective, when I look at all the different other tools that are out there to interact with the Swift Ledger, similarly to how there are various tools that you could use to eventually interact with the app chain.

我觉得没有比 CRE 更强大的工具了。

I don't see a more robust tool than CRE.

所以我觉得接下来会发生的情况是，不仅会有更多的链出现，而且最初那些简单的用例——比如把存款代币化、发行稳定币、或者把股票和基金代币化——这些基础操作将不再足够。

So I think what what what's gonna happen is that not only will there be more chains, but the initial simple use cases of just tokenize a deposit or launch a stable coin or tokenize an equity or tokenize a fund, those simple initial operations will not be enough.

到了那时候，越来越多的金融市场基础设施提供商、银行以及生态里的其他参与者……

And that's when more and more FMI's infrastructure providers, banks, and and other kind of folks in this...

在这个生态里的人就会意识到，真正需要的是能够执行复杂工作流、与高级智能合约交互，并且能在多条链上跨链互动的方案。

In the ecosystem here will realize that what you really need is something that can do advanced workflows, interact with advanced contracts, and interact with those contracts across multiple chains.

举个例子，我们在Sibos大会上跟DTCC一起发布的抵押品管理工作流，我认为这属于中等复杂度的工作流。

For example, the DTCC collateral management workflow that we released together with them here at Sibos is, I would say, a moderately advanced workflow.

史蒂文，我觉得这还不算特别复杂。

I wouldn't say it's like extremely advanced, Steven.

接下来你会看到更多这样的东西。

That's what you're gonna see more of.

到那时，我觉得人们会开始考虑自己的选择，比如怎么跟这些不同的链交互，不管是DTC应用链、Swift Ledger，还是其他各种链，然后他们会意识到，哦，这条链确实能做很多有价值的事情。

And that's when I think people are gonna are gonna look at their options about how do I interact with these various chains, whether it's the DTC app chain, whether it's the Swift Ledger, whether it's any number of other chains, and they're gonna realize that, oh, the chain does these valuable things.

它是一个可靠的结算层。

It's a reliable settlement layer.

它是一个可靠的地方，可以定义具有法律约束力的智能合约。

It's a reliable place for me to define legally binding smart contracts.

但围绕这些合约，我还有很多其他操作需要完成。

But I have all these other operations that need to be done around those contracts.

如果没有这些操作，比如数据合规的桥接，合约就很难用。

And without those operations of bridging data compliance, the contract is very hard to use.

它实际上根本没法正常工作。

It doesn't really work.

所以我觉得这真的是大家会慢慢意识到的事情。

And so this is really what I think people will come to realize.

我们看到像DTCC这样的各种机构，现在高层管理层和高管都要求他们推进高级流程并投入生产。

We see it with with various groups like DTCC that are that are now having a mandate from their senior management from their executives to go into production with advanced flows.

那时候他们才会真正深入研究CRE，开始研究CCIP，开始全面了解Chainlink的所有能力。

And that's when they really start digging into CRE and they start digging into CCIP and they start looking at all the capabilities that Chainlink has.

然后他们基本上会得出这样的结论：第一，要我自己来构建这个，花费的时间会远超我的预期。

And they basically come to the conclusion that a, for me to build this would take much longer than I thought.

第二，没有其他供应商能提供接近这些能力的东西。

B, there's no other provider that has anywhere close to these capabilities.

第三，当我考察其他供应商的认证或安全性时，他们的认证和安全水平也远不及Chainlink。

And C, when I look into the other providers and their certifications or their security, that certification and security level is also not close to Chainlink.

当你从这三个维度来看，你会看到更多像AppChain和Swift Ledger这样的东西，我觉得我们会更多地与它们合作。

When you went on those three dimensions, you see more things like AppChain and the Swift Ledger, I think, is something we're we're gonna be working with more.

我们对此非常期待。

We're very excited about it.

我们很期待让成员银行能够访问并使用它，而且用得很顺手。

We're excited to get member banks to be able to access it and use it efficiently.

我觉得，这就是我们目前所处的阶段。

That's, I would say, the current stage where we are there.

我们正在研究如何为Swift Ledger提供其他各种功能，还在琢磨这个问题。

We're looking at how can we provide various other capabilities to the Swift Ledger, working through that question.

但你知道，这一切都得跟着Swift Ledger的开发进度走，一步一步推进到下一个阶段。

But, know, that has to all progress at the speed at which the Swift Ledger is developed and and taken to the next stages.

在这次会议上，通过交流，我意识到Chainlink已经成了上链的代名词，也就是……

And the realization I've had through conversations at this conference has been that Chainlink is ubiquitous with coming on chain, which is the...

这真是对你们所做工作的巨大肯定。

It's just a massive kudos to the work that you've done.

所以这个DTCC抵押品应用链，感觉是这次会议上最大的公告之一，如果不是最大的话。

And so this DTCC collateral app chain, it it feels like one of the biggest, announcements that's been made here at this conference, if not the biggest.

Chainlink，你知道，是这个抵押品应用链非常重要的合作伙伴之一。

Chainlink is, you know, one of the very significant partners of this collateral app chain.

我们已经看到DTCC是如何进入这个生态系统的。

We've already seen how DTCC is making their entrance into the ecosystem.

所以我很好奇，你预计这会如何融入整个行业，考虑到……

And so I'm curious how you anticipate this fitting into the rest of the industry given that...

我跟你说个小细节，我刚刚和另一家在这里的银行聊过。

And I'll tell you just a quick little snippet, which is that I was speaking with another bank that was here.

他们提到，24小时市场几乎推动了稳定币的大量需求，以及正在进行的许多建设。

They mentioned that twenty four seven markets is almost driving a lot of the demand for stablecoins and a lot of the build out that is happening.

24小时市场随之带来了大量的抵押品管理，以及你提到的那些高级工作流程，Chainlink能够帮助实现这些。

Twenty four seven markets then begets a lot of collateral management, a lot of those advanced workflows that you mentioned that Chainlink is able to help fulfill.

那么，当你看到世界正在转变为24小时市场时，我们如何构建其余这些工作流程呢？

And so as you see the world transforming into a twenty four seven market, how do we build out the rest of those workflows?

也许你可以描述一下DTCC抵押品应用链目前真实的情况，以及我们如何达到你所说的完全先进工作流程的状态？

Maybe you can describe what is real with the DTCC collateral app chain now, and how do we get it to a state of fully advanced workflows that you're describing?

嗯，DTCC他们自己已经宣布并明确了他们的生产时间表。

Well, the DTCC themselves, they've they've announced and clarified their timelines for production.

所以我会参考他们公布的时间表，因为那是他们的链，也是他们的计划。

And so I'm I'm gonna rely on their statements about their timelines because that's that's their chain and, you know, their their plans.

所以我真的没法评论他们的生产计划。

So I I can't really comment on what their plans are for production.

我们很高兴能支持他们，提供这项技术，而且他们选择了CRE作为协调大量抵押品管理工作流程、数据交付以及CCIP跨链的技术。

We're, you know, thrilled to be supporting them and providing this technology and that they've chosen CRE as a as a technology that'll coordinate a lot of this collateral management workflow process, the data, you know, delivery, the cross chain from CCIP.

我认为这非常有力地验证了Chainlink为高级智能合约所做的一切的价值。

I think it's a very strong validation of the value of everything that Chainlink does for advanced smart contracts.

这显然非常令人欣慰，也很棒。

That is obviously very gratifying and great.

而且他们有一个非常聪明的技术团队。

And they have a very smart technical team.

他们有很多深思熟虑的人。

They have very, thoughtful folks.

特别是Dan，还有Danny，他是那边数字资产的CTO。

Specifically Dan, then Danny, that is the CTO of digital assets there.

他是个很棒的人。

He's he's a great guy.

而且他手下有很多非常聪明的人。

And there's a lot of really smart people working for him.

所以他们做了很多深入的尽职调查，我觉得他们的选择非常明确，也非常公开，我们很高兴能和他们合作。

So they've done a lot of deep diligence, and I I think they've made their choices very clear and very public, and we're we're thrilled to be working with them.

关于你提到的从全天候到全年的进展，其实这还能带来更多的价值。

The the way to look at the progression that you described of twenty four seven three sixty five, and then, you know, there's there's more utility from that.

我觉得这真的需要达到一个临界规模。

I would really view this as needing to reach critical mass.

所以，像证券借贷这样的业务要运作起来——我认为这很可能是代币化股权的主要应用场景——你需要代币化股权，需要抵押品平台，还需要主要经纪商的参与。

So in order for something like securities lending to work, which is I think gonna be probably the main use case of tokenized equity, You need the tokenized equity, you need the collateral venues, you need the prime brokers involved.

在很多情况下，你可能还需要代理贷款机构的参与。

In many cases, you might need the agent lenders involved.

还需要托管机构的参与。

You need custodians involved.

所有这些不同的参与者都需要参与进来，才能实现这一点。

You need all these different participants involved and enabling that.

所以这意味着你需要达到一定数量的合作伙伴和不同类型的服务提供商，大家协同工作，这样足够多的银行、资产管理公司和养老基金才能从证券借贷中获益，比如代币化股票。

And so what that means is you need to reach a certain amount of partners and different kind of providers all working together so that enough banks and enough asset managers and enough pension funds can get the benefit of securities lending for tokenized equity as an example.

现在我们还没到那一步，但在我看来，我们离那个临界点已经非常非常近了。

Now we're not there right now, but we are getting very, very close to that level of critical mass in my opinion.

我认为，当你达到那个临界点，证券借贷真正产生价值，代币化股票不再仅仅是拥有股票时，会发生什么呢？

And what'll happen, I think, when you reach that level of critical mass where securities lending actually provides value and tokenized equity isn't just about owning an equity.

代币化股票的意义在于，股票能获得更好的收益，全天候、全年无休地流动，更好的资产负债表管理，以及所谓的融资利率降低，这意味着你实际上需要投入更少，做更少的事情来满足你的义务。

Tokenized equity is about better yield on the equity twenty four seven, three sixty five movement of the equity, better balance sheet management, and something called funding rates getting reduced, which means you actually have to put less up, have to do less to meet your obligations.

对于大型机构来说，这些是每家银行数十亿美元的节省，对于中型机构来说，则是数亿美元的节省。

These are multi billion dollar savings per bank for the larger institutions and hundreds of millions for the medium sized.

这些数字非常可观，但你需要足够多的不同市场参与者都加入这个系统。

These are very significant numbers, but you you need enough of these different market participants to all be on this system.

所以我们现在正在做的是，让所有这些市场参与者都加入CCIP、CRE和Chainlink数据标准，这样他们就能高效地实现抵押品管理和转移。

And so what we're doing now is we're getting all those market participants on CCIP, on CRE, on the Chainlink data standard, that they can enable collateral management and movement efficiently.

如果真到了那一步，我觉得我们参与的就是为代币化资产、代币化股票、代币化基金创造真正的价值和实用性。

If that happens, I think what we'll have been a part of is creating real value and real utility for tokenized things, tokenized equity, tokenized funds.

而且因为代币化能带来独特的价值，比如2473.65美元的流动性和访问权、更好的收益、更好的风险管理，那么代币化股票的数量和广泛采用度会大幅飙升。因为与传统加密市场相比，那个市场在零售和加密对冲基金方面虽然达到数万亿美元，但规模还是很小。

And then because having something tokenized provides you a unique value like $2,473.65 movement and access, better yield, better risk management, then the amount of tokenized equity that comes into existence and the wide adoption of it will massively skyrocket Because the the difference between traditional crypto markets is that while that market is in the trillions in terms of retail and and crypto hedge funds, that is very small.

这个市场则是数十万亿，甚至根据你对衍生品和名义价值的看法，可能达到数百万亿。

This market is in the tens and and depending on how you view derivatives and notional value, hundreds of trillions.

而且这个市场也很有动力快速转向能省钱或赚钱的更好解决方案。

And this market is also very incentivized to move quickly to better solutions where they save money or they make more money.

所以我觉得一旦达到那个临界点，超过那个临界点，代币化股票的数量和产生的收益就会飙升。

So I think once you hit that critical mass, you pass that critical mass threshold, and the amount of tokenized equity, the amount of yield on it getting generated just skyrockets.

这就是我看到的趋势。

That's that's what I see happening.

这才是让人兴奋的地方。

That's the exciting thing.

想想DTCC也在做这件事，因为DTCC正在打造我认为是代币化股票的金标准，因为那种代币化股票附带了你持有普通股票时拥有的所有相关权利。

Think about DTCC doing this also, it's because the DTCC is enabling, I would say the gold standard of tokenized equity, because that tokenized equity comes with all the relevant rights that you would have gotten with standard equity.

有道理。

Makes sense.

而且我觉得这是不可避免的。

And I think this is inevitable.

你之前提到，你在这次Sibos会议上的对话更偏实操。

You mentioned earlier the conversations that you're having here at this Sibos are more tactical.

不是理论上的。

They're not theoretical.

对，就是落地执行。

They're Yeah, boots on the ground.

我们正在推动这件事发生。

We're making this happen.

生产落地。

Production.

就像，距离真正投产还差哪一步？

It's like, what's what's what's the remaining step for production?

我们正在讨论这个问题，并且和多个不同的参与者一起推进这项工作。

And we're having that conversation, and we're doing that work with multiple different participants.

当所有这些参与者都上线并协同工作时，你才能真正获得代币化带来的实用性和价值，而不仅仅是代币化本身。

And when all of those participants are live and working together, that's when you get the utility, the value of tokenization beyond just tokenization itself.

对。

Yep.

所以我想把这一点说清楚，因为这是这里反复出现的主题。

So I just want to be really clear about this because it's a constant theme here.

而且这个问题在加密货币原生圈子里也没有得到非常清晰的解答。

And it's also a question that in the crypto native world is not super clearly answered.

就是，人们为什么想要代币化？

It's like, why do people want tokenization?

答案其实是，他们并不是想要代币化本身。

And the answer really is it's not that they want tokenization itself.

他们想要的是，一旦某样东西被代币化，我就能用这个代币化的基金或资产去做一些传统方式无法做到的事情。

They want that once something is tokenized, I can do things with this tokenized version of a fund or an asset that things that I could not do with a traditional thing.

加密货币圈子里的人会联想到的类比就是稳定币和跨境汇款。

The parallel that people in crypto in the crypto native world would would would relate to well, think is stable coins and remittance payments.

比如你想做一笔跨境汇款。

So you wanna do a remittance payment.

你想给家人寄钱到国外。

You wanna send money internationally to a family member.

传统方式又慢又贵，但用链上现金就不同了。

Huge delays, huge fees, but you have on chain cash.

就这么简单。

That's it.

你知道的，又快又便宜。

You know, it happens quickly and cheaply.

这就是为什么很多国家都采用了稳定币这种链上现金的形式。

Which is why in many countries on chain cash, the form of stablecoins has been adopted.

因为并不是说我拿不到美元或某种货币的纸币。

Because it's it's it's not that like I don't have an ability to get the US dollar or some currency in paper form.

我能拿到。

I can get it.

问题是，用纸币我没法做那些用代币化版本能做的事。

It's that I can't do things with it that I can do with a tokenized version.

所以这就是我们在其他现实世界资产市场需要跨越的门槛。

So that's the threshold we need to cross for the rest of the real world asset market.

但一旦你跨过这个门槛，因为这些行业规模很大，我觉得进展会很快。

But once you crash that threshold, because those industries are so large, I think it'll move quickly.

我也这么觉得。

I think so too.

而且那些下游的影响非常重大。

And those downstream implications are very significant.

当你看到这种情况发生，这种现象出现时，Chainlink 再次扮演了无处不在的角色。

And as you see that happen and that phenomenon take place, Chainlink, again, plays a ubiquitous role.

它已经变成了……

It has become...

Chainlink 与所有这些合作伙伴之间的互联性非常显著，无论是在加密原生领域还是在传统金融领域。

The interconnectedness of Chainlink is is quite significant with all of these partners that you're working with both in the crypto native landscape and the traditional financial landscape.

在这个行业待了十年以上的人，都见证了行业的演变，也因此见证了 Chainlink 一路走来的历程。

Anyone who's been in this industry for a decade plus has seen the industry evolve and and therefore seen Chainlink through its journey and through the years.

所以我个人的看法是，你知道，Chainlink 是一个预言机。

And so my personal lens has been, you know, okay, Chainlink is an oracle.

它帮助连接链下和链上。

It helps bridge off chain and onchain.

随着我逐渐理解金融的发展方向，感觉 Chainlink 正在成为金融的互操作性标准，也就是说 TCIP 2.0 已经发布了。

And as I come to understand where finance is going, it feels like Chainlink is becoming the interoperability standard for finance, meaning TCIP two point o came out.

恭喜这次重大发布。

Congratulations on the big launch.

而且感觉随着我们接受链上金融环境是多链的，无论是链下到链上，还是仅仅协调跨链的连接性，这正是 Chainlink 发挥作用的地方。

And it feels like as we accept that the financial onchain environment is multichain, whether it's offchain to onchain or if it's just coordinating connectedness across chains, this is where Chainlink plays a role.

那么，我们应该如何看待 2026 年的 Chainlink 呢？

And so how how should we think about Chainlink in 2026?

它还是预言机系统吗？

Is it still an Oracle system?

它是互操作性吗？

Is it interoperability?

还是别的什么？

Is it something else?

所以，数据上链、链与链之间的互操作，或者与现有会计系统的互操作，这些都是高级智能合约需要解决的问题。

So data going on chain or interoperability between chains or interoperability with existing accounting systems, all of these are problems that need to be solved for advanced smart contracts.

简单的智能合约，比如你在单条链上铸造一个代币，然后把它发送给同一条链上的另一个人，就这样。

Simple smart contracts where you're on a single chain and you mint a token and you send the token to another person on that chain and that's it.

没有数据。

There's no data.

没有跨链移动。

There's no movement across chain.

没有身份。

There's no identity.

没有合规性。

There's no compliance.

这些都不需要。

There's there's none of these things needed.

这就是链本身能做的事情。

That is what a chain does on its own.

所以，理解Chainlink的方式是，Chainlink补充了链在进行高级交易、高级智能合约和高级交易流程时所需的一切其他功能。

So the way to think about Chainlink is that Chainlink adds everything else that chains need to do advanced transactions, advanced smart contracts in advanced transactional flows.

现在发生的情况，你可以在DTCC应用链抵押品管理的图表中看到。

And now what's happening and you can see this in the DTCC app chain collateral management example in the diagrams there.

而且你知道，我们在那里展示了完整的流程，这些流程现在变得相当复杂了。

And you know, we've shown there with full crop and how that works is that these flows are now getting moderately advanced.

所以现在你会发现，有链A、链B、链C，然后还会有链D、链E、链F，有这么多链，而且这些链变得越来越容易使用、越来越便宜、越来越容易实施。

So now what you're finding is that okay, I have chain A and chain B and chain C, and then there's gonna be a chain D and a chain E and F and there's all these chains and the chains are getting simpler to use and cheaper to use and easier to implement.

但随着链的数量增加，链上的合约变得更加复杂，我对Chainlink所提供的功能的需求也越来越大。

But as there's more chains and as the contracts on the chains become more advanced, I have a bigger and bigger need for more and more of what Chainlink does.

所以更多的链、更多的桥、更先进的合约、更多的数据，以及符合身份、身份数据和身份证明的合规且具有法律约束力的协议。

So more chains, more bridges, more advanced contracts, more data, compliant and legally binding agreements that comply with identity, identity data and identity proofs.

所以我甚至不认为我们现在的合约已经非常先进了。

So I would not even say that we're at a point where the contracts are very advanced.

我觉得我们处于先进阶段的早期到中早期。

I would say we're in the early to early mid version of advanced.

所以我们现在会看到的是，因为这些合约还没有被广泛使用。

And so what we're gonna see now and that's because they're they're not even that widely used yet.

一旦早期版本的合约开始大规模使用，每个人都会开始发挥创意，他们会说，我怎么让我的合约变得更好？

Once the early versions of the contracts start getting used in scale, everyone's gonna start getting creative, and they're gonna say, how do I make my contract better?

我怎么让我的代币化股权变得更好？

How do I make my tokenized equity better?

这才是最激动人心的部分。

That's the exciting part.

没错。

Exactly.

而且这也是你在DeFi里看到的情况。

And and that's what you also saw in DeFi.

所以随着DeFi越来越复杂，Chainlink只会变得更加重要。

So as things got more advanced in DeFi, Chainlink only became more important.

但这个地方，就像是在DeFi的生命周期时间线上。

But this place is in in, like, the DeFi life cycle timeline.

这个地方就像是DeFi上线生产的第一年。

This place is in like the first year of DeFi being on production.

所以当有更多的链、更多的合约、更先进的合约、更多的系统需要连接到合约时，Chainlink就是合约之上和之间的那一层，让它们能够做那些有价值的事情。

So while there's more chains, more contracts, more advanced contracts, more systems to connect to the contracts, Chainlink is the layer above and between the contracts that lets them do those valuable things.

而且我个人认为，这一层会非常有价值和重要，因为拥有一条链的复杂度和成本会下降。

And personally, I think that layer will be quite valuable and important because the the complexity and the cost of having a chain will go down.

但是链越多，需要连接到合约而不是链的东西越多，Chainlink就越重要。

But the more chains there are and the more things you need to connect to the contract than to the chain, the more important Chainlink is.

你预计这会发生在链下，然后在链上结算吗？

And you anticipate that happening off chain and settling onchain?

其实挺有意思的，因为很多情况下，你会遇到所谓的“数字孪生”。

Well, actually, it's it's interesting because in many cases, you have something called Digital Twins.

对。

Okay.

所以你需要跟传统系统做对账，而且必须这么做，因为监管只允许最终的控制权……

So you have the need to do accounting back to traditional systems, and you you have to do that because the regulations only allow the final control look...

也就是所谓的控制地点和最终结算，必须在法律认可的地方链下进行。

What's called control location and the final settlement to be off chain in the place that the law says is acceptable.

对。

Okay.

这种情况最终会改变的。

That'll eventually change.

随着法律的变化？

As the laws change?

是的，随着法律和监管的变化。

Yeah, as the laws and the regulations change.

所以最终，所有的结算都会在链上完成。

And so eventually you will have all settlement on chain.

有些场景下，结算已经在链上进行了，而且具有法律效力，但即便如此，你还是需要和传统系统同步，而且结算往往需要数据，还经常需要跨链进行结算。

There are use cases where you have settlement on chain and that's been made legally binding but then even that you need to synchronize back to the traditional system and so that settlement often needs data, that settlement often needs to do settlement across chains.

比如DTCC的抵押品管理，只有在以太坊和应用链上的义务都结清之后，才算真正完成结算。

So for example the DTCC collateral management is not really settled until the obligation is closed out on both Ethereum and the AppChain.

所以这就是数字孪生的一个例子。

So that's an example of a Digital Twin.

你有DTCC的抵押品应用链，还有以太坊的实例，这两者必须对得上，最终才能完成结算，对吧？

You have the DTCC collateral AppChain, and you have the Ethereum instance, and these need to tie out in order for that ultimately to settle?

差不多吧。

Sort of.

差不多吧。

Sort of.

数字孪生实际上就是DTCC运行的应用链需要和DTCC自己的后端系统进行同步。

The Digital Twin will actually be what the app chain run by DTCC needs to synchronize back with the DTCC's own back end.

好的，那也算是一种数字孪生。

Okay, that'll be a form of Digital Twin.

好的，

Okay,

应用链和以太坊之间的部分，我们称之为镜像。

the stuff between the app chain and Ethereum is what we call it mirroring.

对，我们称之为创建某些贷款义务，并代表贷款义务。

Okay, we call it creating certain loan obligations, and representing loan obligations.

但理论上，它们是相似的。

But in theory, it's similar.

但区别在于两条链之间，以及链与现有会计系统之间。

But the differences between two chains and a chain and an existing accounting system.

但真正重要的是，Chainlink 解决了这两个问题。

But the important point there really is that Chainlink solves both of those problems.

而且它解决这些问题的方式是

And it solves those problems in

一个完整的流程。

a single flow.

你能看到所有这些镜像实例之间的净额结算和对账。

You see the netting, the tying out between all of those mirrored instances,

对，就在这些镜像实例之间。

right between those mirrored instances.

在DTCC的案例中，我们主要关注的是应用链到理论的部分。

And DTCC case, we're primarily focused on the app chain to the theory.

但在很多其他情况下，也涉及机构的链。

But in many other cases, it's also the chain of the institution.

就是以太坊，还有他们的会计系统。

It's Ethereum, and it's their accounting systems.

所有这些都变得越来越复杂。

All of these things are just getting more complex.

是的，这就是重点。

Yeah, is the point.

所以这就是为什么Chainlink一直在改变人们对它的理解，因为高级智能合约最初的核心问题是我需要数据。

So that's why Chainlink keeps changing what people understand it because the initial core problem of advanced smart contracts was I need data.

然后Chainlink解决了这个问题。

And so Chainlink solved that problem.

接着一个大问题是，我需要可靠的桥接。

And then the big problem was I need reliable bridging.

然后Shane说，我解决了这个问题，对吧？

And so Shane like I solve that problem, right?

因为Chainlink没有损失2.9亿美元，Chainlink也没有损失3.2亿美元，这就是解决这个问题的方式。

Because Chainlink doesn't lose $290,000,000 Chainlink doesn't lose $320,000,000 That's how you solve that problem.

现在你转向身份、数字孪生和会计问题，以及编排，这就是CRE所做的，它只是涵盖了所有需要在链下可靠运行的其他计算。

And now you're moving on to identity, this Digital Twin and accounting problem, orchestration, which is what CRE does, which is just a catchall for all the other compute that you need off chain to be reliable.

所以最终Chainlink也会因解决这个问题而闻名。

And so eventually Chainlink will be known for solving that as well.

但假设出现一个新问题，比如如何让AI代理高效地与代币化现金交互？

But then let's say a new problem appears, like how do I get AI agents to efficiently interact with tokenized cash?

不管是稳定币、代币化存款，还是央行数字货币。

Whether that's a stablecoin, a tokenized deposit or a CBDC.

其实，CRE 已经为 AI 的使用做了优化。

Well, actually, CRE is already optimized for AI usage.

所以，如果 AI 代理成为与链上现金和代币化资产交互的常用工具，那我觉得 Chainlink 会成为这些代理的接口层。

And so then if AI agents become a widely used resource for interacting with onchain cash and tokenized assets, then I think Chainlink will be the interface layer for those agents.

但 Chainlink 会继续进化，变成高级智能合约所需要的任何东西。

But Chainlink will continue to evolve and become whatever is needed for advanced smart contracts.

这就是我理解的。

That's that's what I'm understanding.

所以，总结一下，这里的北极星，对吧，如果有一个指标能指导你作为创始人的原则，在你运营 Chainlink 的时候，听起来就是智能合约的持续进步。

And so to to sum all this up, the North Star here, right, if there's one metric that guides your principles as a founder, as you run Chainlink, it sounds as if it's the continuous advancement of smart contracts.

是的。

Yes.

完全正确。

That's exactly it.

我觉得这很难解释，因为智能合约很复杂，而且人们只对智能合约与他们现在正在做的事情相关的那部分感兴趣，比如DeFi、代币化基金或代币化股票。

I I think it's it's hard to explain because smart contracts are complex, and people are only interested in smart contracts in relation to the one thing they're doing now, like DeFi or tokenized funds or tokenized equities.

所以人们对智能合约的理解非常狭窄。

So people's understanding of smart contracts is very narrow.

但你知道，我们在Chainlink之前就有一个网站叫smartcontract.com。

But, you know, we had this site even before Chainlink called smartcontract.com.

所以我们在以太坊出现之前，甚至在现在存在的很多其他东西之前，就已经在研究智能合约了。

And so we were working on smart contracts even before Ethereum and even before a lot of other things that exist now.

所以我一直对智能合约很着迷。

And so I have always been enamored with smart contracts.

但在我看来，智能合约不仅仅是链上运行的代码。

But my definition of smart contracts is not just code that runs on the chain.

它是一种能够以加密验证的方式自动化关键操作的代码。

It's code that can automate in a cryptographically verified way key operations.

好的。

Okay.

当然，现在这些都集中在关键的金融操作上，但不仅仅是说，我有一个签名，签名去签署某个东西，然后在链上移动某个东西。

Now granted now it's all about key financial operations, but it's not just about, I have a signature, the signature signs something and move something on a chain.

对我来说，那是对智能合约非常有限的理解。

That for me is a very limited understanding of a smart contract.

比如，DTC应用链就是一个中等复杂程度的智能合约的例子，但它会变得更加复杂。

What would we have, for example, with the DTC app chain is an example of a moderately advanced smart contract, but it's going to get even more advanced.

而且我觉得随着它越来越复杂，Chainlink会提供越来越多的东西。

And I think as it gets more and more advanced, Chainlink would provide more and more things.

Chainlink选择这样做，明确来说，是因为它可靠，因为这些输入不能不可靠，因为如果它们不可靠，那么整个合约就不可靠了。

And the reason Chainlink has chosen, just to be clear, is that it's reliable because these inputs cannot be unreliable because if they're unreliable, then the whole contract is unreliable.

这样说你能理解吗？

Does that make sense?

是的。

Yes.

因为最终，最薄弱的环节就是那个...

Because ultimately, the weakest link is the one that...

你知道，这就是我们被衡量的标准。

You know, this is what we're measured by.

所以确保一切都有韧性、安全，并且达到高标准，这很重要。

And so it's important that everything is resilient and secure and is held to a high standard.

Sergey，非常感谢你。

Sergey, thanks so much.

我是说，我真的很感激你的见解、你的前瞻性思维，以及你在这个行业里富有远见的工作，帮助推动整个行业向前发展。

I mean, I I really appreciate your insight, your forward thinking, and your your your visionary work here in this industry, helping move the entire industry forward.

真的很感谢。

Really appreciate it.

这是我的荣幸。

My pleasure.

谢谢你和我聊天。

Thank you for chatting with me.

当然。

Absolutely.

这是我的荣幸。

It's a pleasure.

彼此彼此。

Likewise.