Tarun Chitra：量子货币是数字资产的下一个前沿（完整访谈）

如果所有密码学都崩溃了，会发生什么？

What happens if all cryptography breaks?

比如，假设人工智能打破了我们对一切事物的所有假设。

Like, suppose AI breaks, like, the assumptions of everything we know.

比特币没了，以太坊没了，零知识证明也没了，一切都完了。

Breaks Bitcoin, breaks Ethereum, breaks ZK, like, everything's gone.

我们还剩下什么？

What do we have left?

欢迎来到 The Rollup。

Welcome to The Rollup.

我们与金融科技领域最顶尖、最聪明的头脑对话。

We talk to the biggest and brightest minds in fintech.

享受节目吧。

Enjoy the show.

别忘了点赞、评论和订阅。

Don't forget to like, comment, and subscribe.

我们邀请了Tarun，真正的元老级人物来到现场，看起来一如既往地

We've got Tarun, absolute OG in the house, looking as

你们好吗？

How are guys doing?

一直都不错。

As good as always.

等等。

Wait.

所以我想问你一个问题。

So I have a question for you.

请讲。

Please.

那其实会……

That would actually...

那会……

That would...

那个……

That...

这太棒了。

This is phenomenal.

所以你们当初起名叫 The Rollup，是因为觉得会有很多二层网络，很多 Rollup。

So you guys were started with the name The Rollup under the idea there's gonna be l twos, lots of rollups.

最近我们看到有不少二层网络都关停了。

As we've seen recently, there have been a bunch of l twos that shut down.

有些还挺尴尬的。

Have some cringe Last.

还搞了一堆营销活动。

Marketing around it.

那你们现在是怎么应对的？

What do you what do you guys do?

你们现在还是做播客吗？因为你们讲 Rollup，像是金融领域的 Rollup？

Are you guys now a p podcast because you're about rollups, like the finance rollups?

或者说，那个……那个……那个什么来着？

Or like, what's the what's the what's the

The Rollup 有点像是一个智识上的汇聚点，所有东西都……

You know, the roll up is sort of like this intellectual shelling point where everything sort of...

这个……

You know, this...

它是一个知识汇总。

It's a knowledge roll up.

我们是一个金融科技直播节目，专注于数字资产和代币化。

You know, we're a fintech live show, and we have a specialty and a focus on digital assets and tokenization.

而 The Rollup，我觉得……

And the roll up, I think, is...

它……

It...

它依然象征着那种，想法被分享、人们交流不同观点的地方。

It's still indicative of, you know, like, where, you know, kind of ideas are shared, people are are trading different, you know, opinions.

我觉得从这个角度来看，它依然非常适用。

And I think in that sense, it is very much still applicable.

但那是在

But that was born out of

在

Out of the l

两轮繁荣中产生的。

two boom.

有点像是……

Has sort of...

它是不是已经完全被拆解了？

I mean, has it totally just been dismantled?

更像是只会剩下五个卷叠，

It's just more like there's just going to be like five roll ups.

不会再有五百个了。

There's not going to 500.

所以，你既有抽象的东西，又有像 Blast 这样已经整合的，但你还会有 Lighter，还有 Robin Hood。

And you so you've got abstract and like blast of have rolled down, but then you've got but then you've got you've got lighter, you've got Robin Hood.

就像，这些是……

Like, these are...

我们可能还有几个月

I mean, you know, we're probably months

就……

away from

Robin Hood 就要成为

Robin Hood being a

L1 了。

l one.

基于 Lighter 的 Robin Hood。

Base lighter Robin Hood.

还有其他 L2 的项目吗？

Is there any other l two maps?

老实说，是Arbitrum。

Arbitrum, honestly.

但除此之外，真的就是一片死区。

But after that, it's like real dead zone.

也许……

Maybe the...

这个……

This is...

我……

I...

而且我希望你已经读过了。

And I hope you've read it.

也许你还没读。

Maybe you haven't.

但Vitalik那篇新论文，真是……嗯哼。

But the new Vitalik paper, like Mhmm.

你看了吗？

Have you taken a look?

你是怎么想的？

Just what are what are your thoughts?

所以我觉得，作为世界密码学记录这个想法很有道理，因为，在AI时代，身份或很难伪造的东西的公开注册表，难以篡改，比你能用它做的计算重要得多。

So I think the idea of being, like, the world's record of cryptography makes a lot of sense because, like, that's kind of, like, in an AI world, like, the registry of, like, identity or things that are very hard to forge that is publicly available, hard to get over, is much more important than, like, the compute you can do with it.

对。

Okay.

就像，我拥有人们的身份。

It's like, I have people's identities.

我拥有他们的资产，但我不在乎它怎么被使用。

I have their assets, but I'm not, like, I don't care how it gets used.

因为从某种意义上说，计算已经变成了一种商品，就像，我认为智能合约的计算，在一定程度上，其实没什么人真的那么在乎计算本身。

Because in some sense, compute has become just such a commodity that is just like, you know, I I think like the smart contract compute thing, I think, some level is like, no one really cares that much about the compute itself.

就像，显然有一股热潮，去追求更高的吞吐量、更高的交易速度、更好的带宽利用率，等等等等。

Like, there was obviously this huge rush to get to higher throughput, higher transaction rates, better bandwidth usage, dot dot dot.

但我觉得现在我们大概知道区块链在这方面的极限在哪里了，而且我们也知道人工智能能做更多的事情。

But I think now we kinda know what the limits are of that for blockchains, and we also know that, like, AI stuff can do a lot more.

对。

Okay.

所以，它需要变成一种类似加密安全网的概念。

And so, instead, it needs to be kind of like the idea of like this, like, cryptographic safety net.

我觉得那正是他想表达的意思。

And I think that's that's kind of what he was getting at.

现在，他在那篇文章里提到的一些技术还没有被优化到高效的地步，我觉得那会是下一步的发展方向。

Now, there are a bunch of technologies that still haven't been made as efficient that he highlights in that article that I think are, you know, that's like what the next thing will be.

但我...

But I'm...

我有点觉得这比试图成为世界计算机要好。

I I sort of think it's like better than trying to be the World Computer.

因为世界计算机意味着每个人都共享同一个智能体。

Because like the World Computer means like everyone is sharing the same agent.

每个人都在共享同一个AI。

Everyone's sharing the same AI.

简单直白地说，就是想象一下，你得和你认识的每个人共享同一个ChatGPT窗口。

Like, the the kind of dumb but simple way of viewing is, like, imagine if you had to share a single ChatGPT window with everyone you know.

你总是得抢着写提示词。

You always were fighting to, like, write a prompt.

世界计算机大概就是那个样子。

Like, that's kind of what the world computer is.

这就是争议所在。

That's where the contention is.

那就是……

That's...

从某种意义上说，实际上应该把它保留给那些真正极其重要的事情，比如身份认证、资产转移，这些不是特别计算密集，但你更关心它们的安全性，而不是……

And in some sense, it's like, actually, it should be reserved for these things that are actually, like, extremely important, like identity, asset transfer, things that are, like, not super computationally heavy, but you care about the security of them more than...

好的。

Okay.

所以我们现在不再强调“世界计算机”这个概念了，更多是转向那种去中心化的加密记录，用来管身份和一些其他事情。

So we're moving away from the world's computer vibe and more towards this, like, decentralized cryptographic record of account for identity and some of these other things.

而且，对于智能体来说，也需要证明它们做的事情是正确的，为了——

And also, like, for agents to, like, prove they did something correct for

——你。

you.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

我觉得核心想法是，计算不一定非得放在链上。

Like, I think that's the idea is, like, the compute doesn't need to be on the chain.

可以在链下完成，只要能验证就行。

It can be done off chain as long as it can verify it.

好的。

Okay.

明白了。

I see.

我觉得这个想法其实不在于怎么最大化计算吞吐量这些，而在于怎么做到最安全、最难被攻破。

And I think the idea then is that it's less about, like, how do you maximize compute throughput and stuff, and more about how do you maximally be the safe, hardest thing to break.

比如在一个到处都是智能体的世界里，它们会一直试图攻击你，对吧。

Like, in a world of agents that are constantly trying to hack you Mhmm.

如果它能够成为最安全的那一个，那它……

If it can be the thing that is the most safe, then it...

这就是它的价值所在。

That is its value.

它……

It...

这绝对很有价值。

I mean, that is absolutely valuable.

前几天我在一个OKX的活动上见到Vitalik，他也在讲这个演进过程。

I I I saw Vitalik at this OKX event a couple of days ago, and he was describing the evolution.

还有另一个二层网络。

There's another rollup.

好的。

Okay.

X。

X.

X Lair。

X Lair.

X Lair。

X Lair.

他们跟纽约证券交易所合作了。

They had a partnership with New York Stock Exchange.

不。

No.

不。

No.

那个……

That...

我知道。

I do.

那个……

That...

我就是这个意思。

That's what I mean.

有……

There...

但真正有影响力的rollup也就那么几个。

But, you know, there's, like, a handful of roll up that matter.

比如，那……

Like, the ex...

比如，交易所搞的那些rollup。

Like, the exchange roll ups.

而且现在感觉挺成功的，像现在的金融应用，可能就是一个汇总。

And and it sort of feels successful, like, financial application these days is is potentially a roll up.

Vitalik 在 OKX 活动上说的重点其实就是，嘿。

And the thing that the thing that Vitalik was getting at when, you know, he was on stage at this OKX event was effectively like, hey.

我们已经...

We've gotten...

平均来说，机器人可能成为我们一直在打交道的交易对手之一。

On average, bots are potentially like one of the counterparties that we've been interacting with.

接下来几年，可能的情况是，目前主要是人类在写代码，而这些机器人...

In the next couple of years, it might be the case that, okay, for right now, humans are primarily writing code where these bot...

就是我们在和机器人交易。

Where us and bots are transacting.

最终，也许机器人会为交易场所写代码。

Eventually, maybe bots are the ones that are writing the code for the venues.

然后他又说，再过两年，可能我们根本就不用应用了。

And then he says in another two years, maybe it's going be the fact that we don't have applications at all.

就像，不会再有应用程序了。

Like, there will be no applications.

就只是买卖流式报价。

It's just going be bought streaming quotes.

也许人类只是其中的一个市场参与者，这感觉像是彻底解构了rollup。因为如果我们从有rollup、它们是应用生态系统，然后变成最好的生态系统就是一个杀手级应用。

Maybe humans are, you know, kind of one market participant in that, which feels like it completely dismantles roll ups in general, because if there are no, you know, if we go from there's roll ups and those are kind of ecosystems of applications, and then it's like, well, the best ecosystem is just one killer app.

然后就像是没有应用了。

And then it's just like there's no apps.

全是机器人在流式报价。

It's all just bots streaming quotes.

这感觉完全偏离了任何rollup的概念。

It feels like that is totally away from, like, any sort of roll up.

一切都直接在L1上。

It's everything's just on the l one.

也许有一些任意的复杂的东西在链下处理然后再结算。

Maybe there's some arbitrary complex thing that's off chain and settled.

我的意思是，你这么想想看。

I I mean, think about this way.

在一个代理编程非常成熟且安全可信的世界里，你可以随时一键创建一个 rollup，用完就销毁。

In a world of very good agentic coding where you trust its security, you can literally one shot a roll up on demand and then destroy it.

比如说，我创建一个 rollup。

Like, I make a roll up.

像是一个临时的 rollup。

Like a femoral roll up.

一个只用两次提示就创建的临时 rollup。

A femoral roll up that is made just like out of two prompts.

所以在那个世界里，你不需要这种持续存在的状态，也不用花大价钱去维护它。

And so in that world, you don't need this, like, persistent state you're paying a lot for.

你看那些关停的 rollup，纯粹是经济原因。

Like, if you look at the roll ups that shut down, it was purely economic.

它们只是在支付巨额成本，却没有任何需求。

They were just paying a huge cost and they had no demand.

而如果是按需创建的，就不用为维持存在而付这笔成本。

Whereas, if you're made on demand, you don't have to, like, pay this cost to just stay alive.

就是维持

To maintain

和持久化。

and persist.

所以我觉得这一点极其重要。

And so I think that aspect is extremely important.

我打算不这么居高临下地讲了，免得像……

I think I'm gonna go off the bully pulpit instead of, like, you know, I...

我们本可以聊这些机构性的破事，随便吧。

We could've talked about all this institutional shit, whatever.

但我的梦想，对。

But my my dream Yeah.

稍微超出Vitalik那篇帖子的范围，有一组很著名的老论文，最早是七十年代的，后来还有二〇一〇年代的，嗯。

A little bit beyond the Vitalik post, is there's a very famous set of old papers from initially the nineteen seventies, but then sort of like the twenty tens Mhmm.

在一些东西上……

On a thing that is...

我见过的唯一一个比区块链还要超前一点的东西，就是那个叫量子货币的玩意儿。

The only thing I've ever seen that's sort of like one step beyond what blockchains are, which is this thing called very simply quantum money.

听起来有点

It sounds sort

像量子货币。

of Quantum money.

这个嘛，

Which,

考虑到量子相关的东西被过度炒作得厉害，听起来像假的，但其实不是。

you know, given given all the the overhype and quantum stuff, it sounds fake, but it's not.

好吧。

Okay.

它基本上是一种类似区块链的运作方式，不同的是，你用的不是普通的私钥，而是一次性的私钥。

It's it's basically a way of doing something like a blockchain except instead of you having a a private key, you have a one time private key.

你可以为自己生成一个一次性使用的私钥，并且从本质上保留更多的隐私。

You can generate a one single use private key for yourself and maintain a lot more privacy inherently.

对。

Yep.

但你也……

But also you...

所以就像你拥有一些私密信息，这些信息就像是关于你自己的模拟状态。

So it's like you own some private information that's like analog state about yourself.

几乎就像你的生物特征，好的。

Almost like your biometrics Okay.

这可以在需要时生成一个私钥，你可以用它作为智能合约类型中的身份。

That that can generate on demand a private key that you can use as as an identity in a smart contract type of thing.

你需要一台量子计算机才能做到这一点。

You need a quantum computer to do it.

所以就像……

So like...

为什么需要量子计算机呢？

Why do why do you need a quantum computer

为了让它无法被篡改。

to this thing to not be able to be manipulated.

这样啊。

So Okay.

想想你生成私钥的时候。

Think about when you make a private key.

通常在你的电脑上，你会输入一些信息，比如当前时间，然后使用一个随机数生成器。

Normally on your computer, you take some input, which might be like the time of day, and you put down a random number generator.

这个随机数生成器会产生一个随机数，这个随机数用于生成私钥或密钥。

The random number generator generates a random number, which goes into private key secret key generational.

如果我能逆向工程，我就能找出你使用的种子是什么。

Now, if I could reverse engineer that, I could figure out what the seed you used was.

如果我能做到，我就能逆向工程出如何生成你的私钥。

If I could fit, Then I can reverse engineer how to generate your private key.

比如说，有个很有名的以太坊攻击事件，有个虚荣地址生成器，它能生成那种有特定前缀的地址。

So, like, for instance, there was this very famous Ethereum attack where there was this vanity address maker, you know, it would like make the first Yeah.

结果发现，那个虚荣地址生成器用的熵太少了。

And basically, turned out the vanity address thing used much less entropy.

所以，你只需要把所有可能的情况都扫一遍，就能根据秘密钥推算出别人的私钥。

So, like, you could just sweep through all the possible things and figure out someone's private key by just, like, learning what the secret key is.

基本上就是说，正常情况下可能有128位的熵。

By basically saying, like, normally, maybe there's a 128 bits of entropy.

但虚荣地址只搜索了大概20位的范围。

The vanity addressing was only searching, like, 20 bits.

明白。

Okay.

它就找任何带有那个前缀的密钥。

And looking for any any key it got with the prefix.

但我可以把那20位的所有组合，也就是大约一百万种组合，全扫一遍，找出秘密钥，然后你就完了。

But I could just sweep through all of those to the twentieth combinations, like, million combinations, figure out the secret key and then you're fucked.

量子货币本质上就是基于这样的理念：密钥是一个量子态，而作为密钥的输入，你是无法伪造的。

Quantum money inherently is built around the idea that the secret key is a quantum state and the input to a secret key that is you can't fake.

它是不可知的。

It's unknowable.

不可知，但它对你是独一无二的……

Unknowable, but it's unique to your...

所以……

So that...

而且，还有一个概念……

And also, the notion...

区块链的一个核心功能就是防止双重支付。

One of the things a blockchain is built to do is to not allow you to double spend.

量子态有一个天然特性，叫做不可克隆定理。

Quantum states have a natural property, which is called the no cloning theorem.

这个定理基本上就是说，我拥有一个这样的量子态，它可以……

Which basically says, I have a quantum state like this can.

如果我试图精确克隆它，嗯，没错。

If I try to clone it exactly Mhmm.

那会违反一些基本的物理定律。

It'll violate some fundamental physics.

当我试图复制它时，总得有些细微的不同。

There's something little that has to be different when I try to copy it.

通过复制，我以某种方式改变了它。

By copying it, I'm changing it in some way.

好的。

Okay.

所以这就是通常的量子现象，比如，我与系统交互，我就改变了它。

So this is the usual quantum type of thing of, like, I interact with the system, I I change it.

就像，我测量它，我就改变了它。

Like, I I measure it, I change it.

这意味着任何人都无法克隆我个人的状态，那个生成货币的状态。

This means that someone can't clone my my my personal state that generates money at all.

在区块中，能提供更强的保障……

As much stronger guarantees in a block...

区块链实际上依赖于哈希函数不会发生碰撞，对吧。

A blockchain really relies on hash functions not colliding Uh-huh.

不会得到相同的结果。

Not getting the same thing.

这其实是一种更强的性质。

This is actually a sort of stronger property.

现在，要用这些东西，你需要一台量子计算机。

Now, to use these things, you need a quantum computer.

还有……

There's...

你需要让那个量子态是可测量的、可访问的。

You need to have that quantum state, be measurable, and accessible.

但如果你做到了，我认为你就拥有了最强的密码学保障。

But if you have that, I think you have the strongest form of cryptographic guarantees.

好的。

Okay.

我觉得这就是最终的版本。

And I think that's the ultimate version of this.

有很多设计方案，但除非你有量子计算机，否则还是不行。

And there's a lot of designs for how to do it, but until you have, you know, quantum computer still don't...

每个搞加密的人都在想，量子计算机能破解很多东西。

You know, everyone in crypto is always thinking quantum computer breaks Breaks stuff.

比特币。

Bitcoin.

但实际上，有一种超越区块链的方法，你基本上可以重建一种新的货币形式。

But there's actually a thing that's beyond blockchains that you could basically rebuild a new form of money.

这个想法已经存在一段时间了。

And it's it's been known for a while.

只是我们还没有量子计算机。

It's just that we don't have quantum computers.

前提是……

The pre...

它所需的前提条件。

The prerequisites for it.

这太神奇了。

That's fascinating.

那么你是在说……

And so are you saying that...

我明白它可能是……

I I understand how it's maybe one...

它超越了Vitalik的论文，因为那个仍然基于一些非常深层次的基础密码学属性。

It it goes beyond Vitalik's paper because that is still based on, you know, some very deep rooted, you know, fundamental properties of cryptography.

你是在说它推翻了Vitalik的论文吗？

Are you saying that it invalidates Vitalik's paper?

还是说这两者是兼容的？

Or are these compatible?

那我就说两点。

So I'll say the following two things.

关于经典密码学，不是量子密码学，它根本上依赖于某些计算问题非常难解。

One thing about classical cryptography, not quantum cryptography, is it fundamentally relies on certain computational problems being very hard to solve.

但一旦有了正确答案，验证起来却很容易。

But then it's very easy to verify that you have the right solution.

好的。

Okay.

我们在当前的AI领域学到的是，有时候一些我们以为很难的问题

What we're learning in the current AI world is that sometimes some problems we thought were very hard

实际上很容易解决。

To solve are actually very easy to solve.

所以这就不妙了，因为它破坏了计算假设。

And so then that's bad because that breaks the computational assumptions.

到目前为止，比如OpenAI今天发布的所有数学题我都解决了。

Now, so far, for instance, OpenAI released all these math problems I solved today.

他们还没有破解任何重大的密码学问题。

They didn't solve any big cryptography ones.

有一个很小的，可能影响到了旧密码系统的安全性。

There's like one tiny one that might have affected security of an old cryptosystem.

好的。

Okay.

但最近几周，人们已经破解了一堆旨在为后量子世界设计的密码系统，这些系统原本被认为是量子计算机无法攻破的。

But in the last few weeks, people have broken a bunch of cryptosystems that people have been trying to build for the post quantum world that quantum computers can't break.

比如McLease，这是一种经典的密码系统，人们原本认为它是后量子安全的，但人们发现…

Like, McLease, which is a a kind of classical cryptosystem that people thought would be post quantum and and people found...

AI找到了破解它的方法。

AI found a way to break it.

所以大家都在思考这个后量子的问题。

So everyone's thinking about this post quantum thing.

该怎么加上这个无法被攻破的东西呢？

How do I bolt on this thing that can't be broken?

但如果你直接使用量子货币，它本身就具有抗...

But if you actually went directly to quantum money, it is inherently resistant to...

根据其属性，

By the properties of

量子的属性...

quantum the properties of...

在我看来，这就是下一个层次。

And that to me is the the next level.

就像，你想要一种真正保证AI无法攻破的东西。

Like, you want something you have this like real guarantee that AI can't break Mhmm.

从某种意义上说，你必须依靠那个。

In some sense, is like you have to go to that.

所以，我认为一旦我们有了量子计算机，这就是下一个发展方向。

And so, I think that to me is where the puck moves once we have a quantum computer.

好。

Fine.

攻破比特币。

Break Bitcoin.

随便吧。

Whatever.

接下来你要做什么？

What do you do next?

这其实就是我所看到的世界未来的走向。

This is actually where I I see the world going.

很棒。

Very cool.

再说一次，不是机构性的，不是……

Again, not institutional, not...

对。

No.

那是……

That's...

但这是……

But this is...

对我来说，就像，我在想五十年后，会存在什么？

It's like to me, I'm just thinking like fifty years in the future, what is the thing that exists?

如果我们有量子计算机，AI又破解了我们所知道的现有密码学假设，这个东西仍然会有效。

And if we have quantum computers and AI figures how to break all the assumptions we know for existing cryptography, this thing will still work.

这太棒了。

Which is awesome.

我太喜欢了。

I I love it.

塔伦。

Tarun.

哟，兄弟们。

Yo, boys.

这是谁的秀？

Who show is there?

可以客串一下。

Can make a cameo.

来，进来吧。

Come step in.

你可以客串一下。

You can make a cameo.

这是你的节目。

It's your show.

我会看看那副眼镜。

I'll look at those glasses.

让我们进去吧。

Let's let's get in there.

我会替你换一下。

I'll I'll switch out for you.

好的。

Alrighty.

塔伦，那真是太棒了。

Tarun, that was that was fantastic.

好的。

Alright.

我我我……

I mean, I I I...

我敢肯定那一定……

I'm I'm sure it was...

不太符合今天的机构主题……

Didn't meet the, you know, the institutional theme of today....

不是机构的问题。

Questions that are not institutional.

我真的真的很喜欢。

I I really did I really did enjoy it.

好的，塔伦。

Alright, Tarun.

很高兴见到你，兄弟。

Good to see you, buddy.

你怎么样？

How are you?

你这几天过得不太顺利。

You've had a rough few days.

也许你应该跟观众说说这事。

Maybe maybe you should tell the audience about it.

对，各位。

Yeah, guys.

我不知道你们有没有见过我戴眼镜，我戴眼镜是因为我的隐形眼镜都落在旧金山了。

So I don't know if you guys have ever seen me wearing glasses, but I have glasses because all my contacts are in San Francisco.

它们……

They...

我的西装也都在那儿。

That's where all my suits are.

我在一些不错的西装上花了不少钱。

I spent a good bit of cash on some nice suits.

有些像你的风格，有点像淡蓝色，有点过了……

Some kinda like your style suits, kind of a like baby blue, a bit much...

我之前跟他们说过，瞧瞧瞧瞧……

I was telling them earlier, peep peep...

如果你穿有颜色的西装，那就不算西装。

You're not a suit if your suit has color.

我就是这个意思。

That's what I'm saying.

这才是真正的西装。

This is the only suit.

另一种风格……

Different kind...

没错。

Exactly.

不能是黑西装。

It can't be a black suit.

这是我留在纽约公寓里的唯一一套西装。

This is the only suit that I left in my apartment in New York.

但你知道吗，我当时在纽瓦克，得去肯尼迪机场，而且我没带行李。

But you see, was at Newark and I had to go to JFK and I had no bags.

在机场待了72个小时。

Spent 72 hours in airports.

总之……

Anyways...

所以我问了一个重要的问题。

So I asked an important question

在我们开始之前，就是你们是Rollup。

Before we started, which is you guys are the Rollup.

你们是从Rollup为中心的赛道和双人组开始的。

You started around the Rollup centric track and twos.

而且，我们显然有这种像L2在消亡的情况。

And like, we obviously have this kind of like l twos dying

那些东西。

stuff.

抽象的东西刚刚结束了。

Abstract just wound up.

但你的名字很灵活。

But your name is flexible.

你可能是金融领域的并购整合，比如私募股权那种并购。

You could be a financial roll up, like a PE roll up.

是的。

Yes.

所以，你现在算是哪种类型的并购整合呢？

So like what type of roll up are you now?

我……

I...

这个问题问得太好了，因为现在很多人都在问我，还有些人说你们得换个品牌名。

That is a fantastic question because people asking me that now and some folks have been like, you guys need to change the brand name.

我说也许吧，但我更倾向于把它看作是对信息的整合。

And I'm like, well, maybe, but I kinda see it as rolling up information.

就像，你可以是……

Like, you can be like...

就像是……

It's like...

也可以是新闻类的。

It could be journalistic.

也可以是信息类的

It could be like an informational

你回答得太有条理了。

You too coordinated on your answer.

整合。

Roll up.

而且那个羊驼徽章也太酷了。

Which also that alpaca pin is fire.

是的，没错。

So yeah.

我也不知道。

Don't know.

他说你是个知识卷轴。

He said you're a knowledge roll up.

那听起来有点恶心。

That's kind of gross.

我会是

I'll be

更像是，我不太清楚。

more like, I don't know.

我只是想赚点钱，顺便对世界做些好事，帮助人们改变生活，让自己也过得好。

I'm just trying to make some money here, you know, do well by the world, help people change their lives, you know, make I