Tom Zschach：Swift Ledger 已上线，银行已开始使用（比任何人预期的都要快）

汤姆，欢迎你加入这个角色。

Well, Tom, welcome to the role.

这是你第一次上场。

It's your first time on.

我的第一次。

My first time.

我很喜欢。

I love it.

永远的第一次。

First time forever.

谢谢。

Thanks.

当然。

Absolutely.

很高兴见到你，我很喜欢你们做的事情。

Good to see you, and I love what you guys do.

所以我很高兴能来这里。

So I'm happy to be here.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

这真是莫大的荣幸。

It's an absolute pleasure.

我是说，你是这个行业的传奇人物，你曾经坚定地站在传统金融领域，并且作为内部人士发声。

Mean, you're you're you're a legend of the game, someone who's, you know, was was firmly in the TradFi world and being a spokesperson from the inside.

所以也许你可以解释一下，你在Swift工作，而我们这里是Cybos。

So maybe you could just, you know, explain, you know, you're at Swift, and here we are at Cybos.

你曾是Swift的首席信息官，在那里工作了六年。

You were CIO at Swift, and you were there for six years.

那么，也许你可以告诉我们，这六年里发生了什么，最终让你从起点走到了离开时的那个位置。

And so, I mean, maybe you could just tell us what happened over those six years that ultimately got you from where you started to where where you were when you left.

我是说，这……

I mean, it's...

那是一段非常棒的旅程，也是一段美好的时光。

It it was it was a great run and and a great time.

时机也刚刚好。

The timing was was was perfect.

所以，哈维尔和高管团队给了我们很大的支持，真的是为了弄清楚如何改变这个行业，如何制定战略，以及如何继续为会员做更多的事情。

So, super support from Javier and the executive team, really to figure out how to change the industry, how to set the strategy, and and and how to continue to do more for the members.

我想说，有一件事……

I mean, one thing that...

CyBos 最棒的一点是，它真的是一个社区活动。

That's fantastic about CyBos is it's really a community, show.

它是一个……

It's a it's a...

它是为整个行业举办的活动。

It's an event for the industry.

它不是 Swift 的活动。

It's not a Swift event.

这是Swift的……

It's a Swift...

这是行业的一个盛会，从到场的人就能看出来。

It's an event for the industry, and you see that by the people who show up here.

所以，我是说，上一届我们有很多事情要做。

And so, I mean, it was previous side, we had a lot to do.

我们团队有很多工作，生产和创新确实成了展会的重头戏，非常棒。

Our team had a lot to do and a lot of work on production and innovation really became really a prominent part of the show, was was fantastic.

但这确实……

But it it it really...

我觉得，这其实是几个因素的结合：一个专注的管理团队，总是想为社区和客户做更多；还有监管环境的变化……

Well, I think it's just kind of a a convergence of a dedicated management team that always wants to do more for their community and for their customers, a regulatory background that would...

这种变化来得挺快的，尤其是在美国，但也推动了世界其他地区。

That that shifted, you know, fairly quickly, especially in The US, but then as a catalyst for other parts of the world.

毕竟，世界很大。

I mean, the the world's a big place.

但还有客户需求的因素。

But also just just customer demand.

而且，你知道，我们确实看到了实实在在的证据，表明不仅在技术方面，而且在数字货币的需求方面都取得了进展。

And, you know, we we saw, like, real evidence where there's progress being made, not only in the technology, but but in demand for, like, digital money.

所以，想想我在Swift的时候，三年前没人想过会在Swift网络上传输代币。

So if you think about kind of the time that I was at at Swift, nobody thought about carrying a token over the Swift network three years ago.

所以创新的工作就是帮助定义可能性，然后与我们的会员合作，利用我们在Swift拥有的便利力量来证明这一点，证明需求，并取得成果。

So that was the job of innovation was to, like, help define what could be, and then work with our members and use the convenient power we had at Swift to to to to prove it and prove the demand and and get something done.

而且我必须说，Swift团队做得非常出色，不仅仅是……

And I have to say the Swift team did an amazing job, not only just...

你知道，一年前在法兰克福，我们宣布了账本。

You know, it was a year ago in Frankfurt where we where we announced the ledger.

那是一个重大事件和重大公告，但他们还宣布了支付方案。

That was a that was a a big event and a big announcement, but they also announced the payment scheme.

所以，就如何融入而言，你知道，他们会继续下去。

So in terms of how it fits in, you know, they're gonna continue.

Swift会继续让现有的支付方式变得更好。

Swift's gonna continue to make payments as we have them today better.

他们在那个计划项目上取得了很大的成功，这个项目是随着公告一起推出的。

And they've had a great success with the with the the scheme program that that rolled out was announced and kind of rolled out in conjunction.

所以，对Swift和整个社区来说，Ledger的发布算得上是两大胜利。

So kinda two big victories for Swift and for the community with the launch of with the launch of Ledger.

我觉得市场已经验证了你的前瞻性思维和Swift过去几年推出的这些成果，因为现在的问题不是会不会，而是什么时候，整个行业都在朝这个方向加速。

And I I think the market has validated both your forward thinking and Swift's launches that have taken place over the last couple of years because I think it is now not if, it's when, and and the industry is accelerating in this direction.

那你能不能给我们详细讲讲Swift Ledger？

And so maybe you can kinda unpack Swift Ledger.

对于不熟悉的人来说，它是做什么的？

For anyone who's unfamiliar, what does it do?

它不做什么？

What does it not do?

人们听到Swift，也知道机构在进入这个领域，但请帮我们理解一下，Swift Ledger到底有哪些实际的功能？

People hear about Swift and, you know, broadly institutions entering the space, but help us understand what is what is real about the Swift Ledger.

所以，有一点一直很重要，就是要搞清楚Swift到底是什么。

So so, something that's that's always important is to be really clear about what Swift is.

Swift是一个网络，代理银行这种业务模式，还有其他业务模式，都在这个网络上运行。

Swift is a network where the corresponding banking business model, along with other business models, runs on the network.

所以，而且……

And so And

那对于不熟悉代理银行的人来说，它跟传统银行有什么区别呢？

and for anyone who's unfamiliar with correspondent banking, how does that differ from traditional banking?

我的意思是，这……

I mean, it's...

嗯，这显然是一种银行形式，对。

Well, it's obviously a form of of banking Mhmm.

但它主要专注于大额支付，好的。

But it's primarily focused on large value payments Okay.

服务对象是金融机构、市场基础设施、企业，当然还有银行。

On financial institutions and market infrastructures and corporates and, of course, banks.

而且，这就是跨境大额支付的方式。

And it's the way in which in which, you know, payments are made cross border for large value payments.

我喜欢说，50美元不是5000万美元。

And I I I like to say that, you know, $50 is not 50,000,000.

如果你去企业财务部门，说，嘿。

If you went to a corporate treasury and you said, hey.

我有个更快更便宜的东西，对。

I got something that's faster and cheaper Yeah.

而且大部分时间都能用，他们会像你刚才那样微笑。

And it works most of the time, they'll they'll smile like you did.

他们会说，等你能让它稳定运行了，再来找我谈。

They're like, when you get it to work, come back and talk to me.

所以当你进入代理银行业务时，一切都关乎确定性。

So when you when you get into corresponding banking, it's all about certainty.

一切都关乎合规。

It's all about, you know, compliance.

你不能跟一个在……的人交易。

You can't you can't transact with somebody in a...

在另一个国家，跨境交易，然后指望它合规。

In another country, cross border, and then hope that it's compliant.

它必须合规。

It has to be compliant.

你必须知道出了问题该怎么办。

You have to know what happens when something goes wrong.

这种情况不常发生，但一旦发生，你需要知道规则是什么。

And that doesn't happen much, but when it does, you need to know, you know, what are the rules?

我们该怎么做？

How do we do this?

然后你必须以标准化的方式去做。

And then you have to do it in a standardized way.

你知道，Swift连接了200个国家，我记得Javier昨天说过，有4万多个通道。

You know, Swift connects, you know, 200 countries and, I think Javier said yesterday, 40,000 plus corridors.

你需要网络中的标准化和稳健性，才能处理通过Swift进行的大额支付。

You need that standardization and that robustness in the network to be able to run the kind of large value payments that that go across Swift.

而Swift Ledger正在将这一点带到链上。

And Swift Ledger is bringing this onchain.

所以我认为Swift Ledger背后的策略是完全正确的。

So I think the the the strategy behind the Swift Ledger is exactly the right one.

而且你可以……

And you can...

所有使用Swift的人都可以继续像过去五十年那样使用Swift。

Everybody who's on Swift can continue to do what they've always done on Swift.

五十多年了。

Fifty plus years.

这给他们提供了另一种选择，以及进行跨境支付的方式。

What this gives them is another option and the way to make cross border payments.

所以我们……

So we...

当我们宣布这个账本的时候，发生的情况是，我们向银行提供了另一种跨境支付的选择。

When we announced the ledger, what what happened was is we then offered the banks, here's an alternative for you to do a cross border payment.

第一个工作流程已经实施，并且最近刚刚上线。

And the first workflow that was implemented and went live just recently.

第一个工作流程是让银行之间互相支付，进行跨境支付，使用他们的……

The first workflow were for banks to pay each other and do a cross border payment in their...

使用他们自己的存款代币。

Using their own deposit tokens.

所以这并不是要取代任何东西。

So it's not it's not replacing anything.

也不是要拆除现有的支付轨道。

There's not ripping up rails.

这实际上让网络变得更有价值、更相关，因为现在有了另一种方式，另一种选择，供银行自行决定是否采用。

It actually makes the network more valuable and more relevant because now there's another way, another option for banks who choose to do it.

有些银行可能会选择，有些可能不会，但这是他们自己的选择。

And some may some may and some may not, but they choose to do it.

现在他们可以用自己发行的存款代币进行跨境支付了。

They can now do cross border payments with the deposit tokens that they've created.

所以这就像打开了一个全新的可能性世界，让任何Swift成员都能用上这个能力。

So it just kind of opens up a whole another world of of kind of possibilities and and makes that capability available to anybody who's a Swift member.

而且昨天Swift的负责人在台上也说了，这已经不只是关于传统金融了。

And the head of Swift onstage, know, just yesterday said that this is no longer about TradFi

还有去中心化金融。

and DeFi.

Swift是在支持这两个领域。

This is Swift supporting both sides of the spectrum.

所以你们是在给这些银行提供一个他们可以用来交易的替代方案。

And so you're offering these banks an alternative that they can they can use to transact.

从去年在法兰克福的宣布，到把它变成现实，再到看到一些案例落地，这一切都发生在过去一年里。

And this has taken place over the last year from, like you said, the announcement in Frankfurt to making this a reality and seeing some of these case studies go live.

从上线到现在这一年里发生了什么？你预计接下来一年又会有什么进展？

What has happened in that last year since going live, and what do you anticipate is going to happen over the next year?

我今天发了条推文。

I I I tweeted out.

我转发了……

I re...

我今天转发了Swift的那条帖子，因为我……

Reposted the Swift post today because I I...

事情就是这样。

That's exactly what's happening.

所谓传统金融和去中心化金融，其实都是金融。

The idea of, like, trade fi and DeFi, it's just fi.

就是金融。

It's just findings.

所以，当我们开始大规模使用这些东西时，就不会再叫它们加密货币了。

So, you know, we don't call things crypto when we start using them mainstream.

我们也不再叫稳定币为加密货币了。

We don't call stable funds crypto anymore.

所以我的意思是，我……

So I I mean, I...

哈维尔说得完全正确，我认为这对市场来说是一个非常积极的信号。

Javier is spot on on that one, and I think that's a really good signal to the market.

你看，这正在融合。

Like, you know, this is this is converging.

而且这正在发生。

And it is happening.

但这并不意味着你会……

And it doesn't mean you're gonna...

因为你有稳定币，你就会在某个国家废除即时支付系统。

Because you have a stable coin, you're gonna rip up an instant payment system, you know, in a in a particular country.

这一切……

It all...

一切都在汇聚到一起。

It's all coming together.

所以我觉得，真正重要的是……

And so I think I think what's really...

一些重要的信号是，速度有多快……

Some important signals are how quick...

他们从银行那里看到的需求，以及他们多快就把它搞定了。

The kind of demand they saw from the banks and how quickly they turned it around.

我的意思是，想想像Swift这样的主要金融基础设施，去年九月宣布了某件事，一年后就能谈论结果，这真是了不起的交付。

I mean, if you think about a major financial infrastructure like Swift in announcing something last September and and being able to talk about the results a year later, it's an amazing delivery.

而且这一切都是以你期望Swift做事的方式完成的。

And it's all done in in the way that you'd expect it to be done from Swift.

没有偷工减料，你知道，没有花招，没有虚头巴脑。

No cut corners, you know, no games, no smoke and mirrors.

它实际上已经准备好了。

It's it's actually ready.

这……

Which...

团队做得非常出色，才能把它推出来。

The team did an amazing job to get that out there.

我觉得可能有很多误解，你知道，一些加密货币社区喜欢对这些发布的事情加上自己的解读。

And I think there are maybe a lot of misconceptions that some of the, you know, crypto communities like to put their own spin on these kinds of things that are going out.

你明白吗？

You know?

我从来没见过那种情况。

I I never seen that.

那种事确实会发生。

That happens.

你以那些所谓的“军队”出名，就是瑞波军团。

You're famous for, you know, the the armies, the ripple armies.

他们喜欢……

They like to...

我只是喜欢真相。

I just like the truth.

就是喜欢真相。

Just like the truth.

我们就以事实为准吧。

Let's just anchor stuff on the truth.

那帮我们理清一下，这里哪些是事实，哪些是虚构的。

And so help help us understand, like, the fact and the fiction here.

大家在传什么，为什么这些说法不成立？

What are people claiming, and why is that not true?

Swift Ledger 的实际情况到底是什么？

And what what is the the reality of the Swift Ledger?

它是怎么运作的？

How does it work?

它给这些银行带来的价值主张是什么？

What is the the value proposition that it brings these banks?

为什么银行会选择它作为替代方案？

Why are they choosing it as the alternative?

所以，我的意思是……

So, I mean, the...

我是说，人们总是会发表各种说法。

I mean, people claim things all the time.

而且他们总是会这样。

And they're they're always will.

有时候这些说法是准确的，有时候就不那么准确了。

And sometimes they'll be accurate, and sometimes they'll be a lot less accurate.

我觉得这很重要，而且你……

And I think it's important, and and you...

我得到了很好的回应。

I get a really good response.

我们就直接说，看吧。

We just go, look.

让我们把讨论的事情说清楚。

Let's just be really clear about what we're talking about.

我们来谈谈这到底是什么。

Let's talk about what this really is.

我们来谈谈这可能预示着什么。

Let's talk about what that might be a signal for.

因为信噪比，你知道，不仅在数字资产领域，当你用AI处理可编程货币时，真的很难分辨什么是真正发生的信号，什么是噪音。

Because the signal to noise ratio, you know, not only in digital assets, when you you you know, have programmable money with AI, it's actually really hard to to try to figure out what's what's a true signal of of something that's happening versus noise.

而且到处都是噪音，你得尽快把它们发布出去。

And there's a lot there's a lot of noise all over the play, and you can get it out there as fast as possible.

所以，再说一次，Swift很特别，它是一个网络。

So, again, Swift Swift is special, and it's a network.

它提供……

It's offered...

它是在网络之上构建的新区块链技术，但它的功能与其他区块链或网络不同，而且经常被混淆。

It's built as new blockchain technology on top of the network, but but it doesn't do what, and it gets conflated in terms of what it does with other, blockchains or networks or something.

它不负责结算。

It doesn't do settlement.

那不是托管机构。

That's not a custodian.

你知道，Swift不会发行代币。

You know, Swift is not gonna issue tokens.

那不是他们做的事。

That's not what they do.

所以，部分问题就是要搞清楚他们做什么和不做什么，然后想想这能带来什么优势。

And so so part of it is just being really clear about what they do and what they don't, and then think about how the advantages that bring.

如果你发送两种不同的资产，这完全是举例说明。

If you send two different assets, this is completely completely illustrative.

一家银行发送稳定币。

One bank sends a stable coin.

另一家银行发送代币化存款。

The other bank sends tokenized deposit.

可能是同一种货币，也可能是不同的货币，随便什么。

Maybe in the same currency, maybe in different currency, whatever that is.

我们会涉及不同的货币。

We're gonna be in different currencies.

一方面，结算流程在Swift之外完成，可以在常规中央银行进行。

One side of that, the workflow that's the settlements done off of Swift, that could be done at a regular central bank.

比如英格兰银行或者美联储之类的。

Bank of England or or the Federal Reserve or something like that.

另一方面可以在以太坊或Solana上结算。

The other side could be settled on Ethereum or Solana.

所以你有这种能力，比如在不同货币之间交换代币。

So you have this capability you have this capability where you can swap tokens in different currencies, for example.

你可以称之为实时外汇，对吧，如果协议是这样的话，而且你可以通过即时支付系统或中央银行货币在中央银行结算，也可以在高交易量的链上进行，这些链越来越受欢迎，比如以太坊和Solana。

You could call that real time FX, right, if that was what the agreement was, and you can settle it on instant payment systems or central bank money, right, at a at a central bank, and you could do it on on one of the high volume chains, which are getting lots of traction, like Ethereum and and Solana.

比如……

For...

当然还有其他链。

And there's others, of course.

但是，再说一次，它并不……

But, again, it doesn't...

Swift并不做这个决定。

Swift doesn't make that call.

这取决于进行交易的成员，他们来决定如何完成结算。

It's down to their members that are doing the transaction saying what they want the settlement done.

所以，所有这些关于结算的混淆，我觉得反而让事情变得更复杂了。

So all this settlement conflation, I think, kinda adds to the confusion a bit.

如果你能直接搞清楚Swift到底做什么，以及它如何帮助社区和银行成员，那理解起来就容易多了。

And if you just kind of get down to the fact, like, what Swift does and how it helps the community and how it helps the member of the bank, it just makes it a lot easier to understand.

我觉得一个很大的误解是，它是个区块链，但它并不做结算。

I think a big misconception is that it's a blockchain, but it doesn't do settlement.

所以，如果它不做结算，不做托管，也不做代币，那它到底做什么呢？

And and and so if it doesn't do settlement, and it doesn't do custody, and it doesn't do tokens, what does it do?

它协调两个不同成员之间的交易，并且实现一个结算流程，无论你想在哪里结算，它都能配合代币化资产来操作。

It orchestrates transactions between two different members, and it implements a settlement workflow with with a a tokenized asset regardless of where you wanna settle it.

所以我非常期待，你知道，你必须从价值和支付开始，因为那是……

So I I very much expect that, you know, you have to start with value and payments because that's what...

那是业务的核心部分。

That's the the kind of the bread and butter part of the business.

但现在你有了价值，问题是你还能用它做什么？

But now that you have value, then the question is what else can you do with it?

虽然我不负责Swift的战略，但如果他们扩展到其他资产类别，我也不会感到意外。

And I'm I'm not responsible for Swift strategy, but it wouldn't surprise me to see them step step into other asset classes.

你需要以货币为基础，才能结算其他一切。

You need to have money as the foundation for everything else that's gonna be settled.

所以，我的意思是，我们拭目以待吧。

So, I mean, we'll we'll we'll see what they do.

这个团队非常有能力。

The the team's very capable.

他们非常敏锐。

They're very switched on.

他们非常非常渴望和社区合作，一起决定下一步该怎么做。

You know, they're very, very eager to to kind of work with the community to figure out what to do next.

而且我敢肯定，未来几年的路线图会相当繁忙。

And I'm sure it's gonna be a pretty pretty busy road map for the next couple of years.

我想也是。

I'd imagine so.

有一些……

There's some...

有一个……

There's a...

有一个顶级的……

There's a top...

在账本和Swift的工作中，都是世界级的人才在参与。

These are world class people that are that are working on the ledger and the work that's being done at Swift.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

而且，你知道，有很多公司在推动这件事上发挥了重要作用。

And there's, you know, so many companies that have been instrumental in helping to bring this about.

我们现在在Chainlink的展台，但你提到了以太坊、Solana。

We're here at the Chainlink booth, but you mentioned Ethereum, Solana.

我的意思是，有好几个，你知道，是的。

I mean, there's several, you know, just Yeah.

也许你可以谈谈来自行业的合作伙伴，他们帮助Swift熟悉了链上世界，因为Swift在支付编排方面有着丰富的经验。

Maybe you can just speak to the the partners that come from the industry that have helped to, you know, kind of bring Swift into a position where it is familiar with the onchain side of the world because it has extensive expertise in sort of the way that payment orchestration has been done up till now.

现在他们能够与一些专注于这方面的人联手。

And now they've been able to, you know, kind of combine forces with some of these people that are really focused on

技术。

the technology.

嗯，在Cybos上真正突出的一点是，我认为机构、金融机构、银行，无论他们在生态系统中扮演什么角色，那些能取得最大进展且可持续的，都会与合作伙伴一起实现。

Well, one of the things that really comes out at Cybos is I think the the institutions, financial institutions, banks, whatever whatever part of the ecosystem they play, the ones that are gonna make the the the most progress and substantial progress that's sustainable is gonna do it with partners.

所以整个合作伙伴生态系统，对我来说，可能是最有效的方式。

So that whole partner ecosystem, to to me, is is probably the most effective way.

你知道，不管是结算链、钱包提供商，还是帮助处理工作流其他部分的某个人。

You know, whether it's a settlement chain, whether it's a wallet provider, whether it's, you know, somebody that's helping with other kinds of other parts of the workflow.

因为大家都需要规模化。

Because everybody needs to get to scale.

而且没有人有足够的资源独自完成这一切。

And and and nobody has enough resources to build that all themselves.

他们还有业务要运营。

They got a business to run.

他们知道必须服务好客户。

They they know they gotta service their customers.

他们还得投资现有的支付轨道。

They they gotta invest in the existing payment rails.

就像我们之前讨论的方案一样。

Like we talked about with the with the scheme.

所有这些都在发生。

All of those things are happening.

所以我觉得，要想真正走在前面，跟上行业步伐，唯一的办法就是合作。

So I think the only way you're actually gonna be able to get ahead and kinda keep at pace with the industry is is is with partnerships.

合作。

Partnerships.

而且这方面有很多好机会。

And and there's there's dozens of good opportunities to do that.

Swift总是处在中间位置，而且他们始终保持中立，能够帮助促成这些合作。

And Swift always is in the middle, and they're always neutral to be able to help that.

所以再说一次，这不是要选边站，决定谁赢谁输。

So, again, it's it's not about picking winners and losers.

而是如何把大家聚在一起，用一种安全、可靠、标准化的方式。

It's about how do you actually bring everybody together in a safe, secure, you know, standardized way.

他们在这方面已经做了很久了，未来也会继续做下去。

And they've been doing that for a long time, and they'll continue to do that in the future.

而且他们……

And they...

他们成功协调了这么多合作伙伴，并且让自己处于能够支持整个行业的地位。

They've been able to harmonize so many of these partners and find themselves in the position where they are able to support the entire industry.

你刚才提到，你知道，要领先一步，而且，你知道，有些小道消息说，可能很快会有新动向。是的。

And you kinda mentioned, you know, kinda getting getting ahead, and, you know, there are some rumors in the rumor mill that things might be coming ahead Yeah.

很快。

Very soon.

你现在已经离开Swift了，关于你、你的工作，有什么可以分享的吗？

Is there anything you can share about, you know, you, your work now that you're out of Swift.

基于这些传闻，你有什么可以告诉我们的吗？

Anything that you can share with us based on these rumors?

有些传闻是真的。

So so some of those rumors are true.

大约一个月后，在Money2020上，我们会发布一些重大消息，关于我们下一步的计划，以及我们在开发合作伙伴、投资者和整个生态系统方面所获得的动力。

We are gonna be, making some big announcements about a month from now at Money2020 in terms of what, what we're doing next and kind of the the momentum that we're getting both, in terms of development partners, investors, and kind of the ecosystem forming.

所以请关注Money2020。

So stay tuned for, for Money2020.

真是激动人心的时刻。

It's exciting times.

非常感谢

Thanks so

你抽出时间，汤姆。

much for spending the time, Tom.

谢谢，罗比。

Thanks, Robbie.

真的很感激。

Really appreciate it.