The Psychology of Sound Design

嘿，大家好。

Hey, everybody.

今天是星期一，2020年4月13日。

Today is Monday, 04/13/2020.

我叫马特·富里，你们正在收听的是初剪版。

My name is Matt Fury, and you are listening to the rough cut.

好的。

Okay.

是时候让这个播客机器重新运转起来了。

Time to get this podcast machine going again.

很高兴见到你。

Good to see you.

谢谢你的光临。

Thanks for dropping by.

希望你们喜欢上一期关于《虎王》的节目。

Hope you enjoyed last week's episode on Tiger King.

我知道很多人看了，因为他们确实听到了很多关于它的讨论，谢谢你们的支持。

I know a lot of people did because they certainly heard a lot about it, so thank you for that.

这周我想尝试一些不一样的东西。

Gonna try something a little different this week.

我们不再聚焦于某部电影或电视剧项目，而是要探讨一个话题——这可是我们有一阵子没做过了。

Instead of focusing on a project in terms of a film or TV show, We're actually gonna tackle a topic, which is something we haven't done in a while.

事实上，我觉得上一次我们这么做还是去年夏天快结束的时候，当时我们和那些酷酷的真人秀朋友聊了聊非 scripted 电视节目。

In fact, I think the last time we did that was around, oh, late summer last year when we talked about, unscripted television with our cool reality TV friends.

那期节目特别有趣。

That was a lot of fun.

如果你还没听过，一定要去听听那一期。

If you haven't heard it, check that one out.

但今天，我想既然在这档节目中，当我们与剪辑师——尤其是画面剪辑师——交谈时，经常谈到声音以及他们在画面剪辑中对声音的处理方式。

But today, what I thought we would do, since so often on this show when talking to editors, picture editors anyway, we talk about sound and their approach to sound and the kind of sound work they do in picture editorial.

所以我觉得是时候我们深入一下，和一些音频后期人员聊聊了。

And so I thought it was kind of high time that we jumped in and talked to some audio post people.

事实上，我们本该在SXSW办一场小组讨论的。

In fact, we should have had a panel at SxSW.

我知道我在今年SXSW取消前的几期节目中提到过这个想法。

I know I talked about it in some of the previous episodes this year before SxSW was canceled.

尽管我们无法去奥斯汀现场举办这场在西南偏南的小组讨论，但没有任何理由阻止我们在线上进行。

And I thought what we would do is even though we couldn't go to Austin and actually have the panel there at South by Southwest, there's nothing to stop us from doing it virtually.

事实上，现在大家都用Zoom了。

In fact, everybody's doing the Zoom thing these days.

所以今天，我召集了大家，来聊一聊声音设计的心理学。

So I got the gang together, for today's podcast on the psychology of sound design.

通常我每期节目只邀请一位嘉宾，但今天不一样，我们请来了三位非常出色的人士，他们分别担任混音师、声音设计师和声音剪辑师，参与过大量影片的制作。

And where I usually have one guest on the show, we have not one, not two, but three very talented people joining us here today that take on the role of rerecording mixer, sound designer, and sound editor on a lot of the films that they do.

第一位是李爱玲，一位成就卓著的重混音师、声音剪辑师和声音设计师。

First would be Ai Ling Lee, a very accomplished rerecording mixer, sound editor, and sound designer.

她参与过《乔乔的异想世界》《爱乐之城》《登月第一人》《死侍》等众多优秀影片。

She's done films like Jojo Rabbit, La La Land, First Man, Deadpool, all kinds of great stuff like that.

另外，我们还有威尔·莱尔斯，他刚完成了《隐形人》。

Also, we have Will Files, who just did The Invisible Man.

我知道我们最近刚和剪辑师安迪·卡尼做过一期关于这部片子的播客。

I know we had a podcast on that recently with editor Andy Canny.

威尔参与过很多大片。

Will's done all kinds of big movies.

《星球大战：原力觉醒》、《猩球崛起：终极决战》。

Star Wars The Force Awakens, War for the Planet of the Apes.

他还参与了《怪奇物语》，虽然还不确定什么时候上映，但他也参与了新《捉鬼敢死队》《捉鬼敢死队：生死相随》。

He's on Stranger Things, and not sure when it's gonna come out, but he's also on the new Ghostbusters, Ghostbusters: Afterlife.

我想我们会在2021年看到这部片子。

So I think we're gonna see that in 2021.

所以这部还得再等一阵子。

So a little bit more of a wait for that one.

最后，我们还邀请到了克雷格·亨尼根。

And finally, we're also joined by Craig Henighan.

克雷格也和威尔·菲尔兹一起参与了《怪奇物语》的制作。

Craig also worked on Stranger Things, with Will Files.

他还参与过《罗马》、《热带惊雷》等电影，我相信他还与李爱玲一起参与过《死侍》的制作。

He's also done films like Roma, Tropic Thunder, and I believe he also worked with Ai Ling Lee on Deadpool.

所以，今天我们的嘉宾都是业界顶尖人物。

So those are our very esteemed guests today.

他们将在音频后期制作领域与我们分享大量内容。

They've got a lot to talk to us about in the world of audio post production.

所以我们别浪费时间了。

So let's not wait.

我们马上开始吧。

Let's jump right in.

以下是李爱玲、威尔·菲尔兹和克雷格·亨尼根。

Here are Ai Ling Lee, Will Files, and Craig Henighan.

你们来自德克萨斯州奥斯汀。

You Austin, Texas.

你知道，这基本上就是没有烧烤的虚拟SXSW，真遗憾。

You know, so this is basically virtual SXSW without the brisket, unfortunately.

你知道，如果我们现在能在德克萨斯州奥斯汀，面对SXSW的观众进行这场对话，那该多好，但话说回来，如果我们能从中找到一线光明，也许这种方式能触达更多人，而且我们确实有很多话题要聊。

You know, it would have been great for us to be in Austin, Texas right now doing this in front of a SXSW audience, but, you know, if we can find a silver lining in all this and say maybe we can reach a lot more people doing this way and we got a lot to talk about.

我的意思是，深入探讨声音的心理学，以及你们在电影和电视剧中的工作如何影响观众，这可是个庞大的话题。

I mean digging into the psychology of sound and how the work that you do in films and television shows impacts an audience, that's a lot of ground to cover.

但在那之前，我觉得最好的做法是厘清音频后期制作中不同角色的神秘之处。当我查看你们三人的IMDb页面时，会发现三个频繁出现的头衔：声音设计师、声音编辑师和混音师，而且你们的名字旁边常常同时挂着这三个头衔。

But, before we do that, I thought the best thing we could do is really sort of break down some of the mystery around the different roles in audio post production, and when I look at your collective IMDb pages, you see three titles that come up a lot and that's you know sound designer, sound editor, re recording mixer, And oftentimes you have all three of those titles next to your names in the credits.

所以我想我们不妨来玩个小角色扮演：我刚开拍一部电影，打算雇用你们三位，每人负责其中一个角色，你们各自向我解释一下，你们具体会为我的电影做些什么。

So what I thought we would do is start off with a little role playing, and what we're gonna do is like I'm starting a movie and I'm gonna hire each of you to be on the movie and you're each gonna do one of those different roles for me and I'd like you to explain what it is you're doing for me.

首先，艾琳·李，我想聘你做我的声音设计师。

So Ai Ling Lee, I would like to hire you as my sound designer.

这到底意味着什么？

What does that mean?

你将为我的电影做些什么？

What will you be doing for my film?

我会先试着熟悉故事和剧本，然后与导演沟通，了解他的愿景、灵感以及对声音的构想和想法，从而创作或收集能够传达特定情感的声音。

I would say, I would try to, you know, familiarize myself with the the story, script, and then converse with the director about, you know, what his vision is, his any inspiration, his palette for thoughts and ideas on sound and to create, like, or collect and create sounds that could convey a certain emotion.

无论是恐怖片、音乐片，还是其他任何类型都可以。

You know, it could be horror thing or a musical or anything.

如果他们想要更真实、接地气、粗粝，或者更超现实、主观的声音，那么在对话之后，我会开始头脑风暴，寻找需要录制的素材，尽量使用大量原创声音，以明确地传达场景、电影或主要角色的核心情感，让声音发挥作用。

If they wanted more reality based, grounded, greedy or much more surreal or subjective And to maybe then after that conversation, start, you know, brainstorming and maybe finding out, you know, things to record and to try to use as much original sounds as we can to make a clear choice to convey the the core emotion of the scene and the the movie or any main characters that could where the sound could help.

好的。

Okay.

现在，亨尼根先生，你来担任我的声音剪辑师。

And now, mister Henighan, you have the duty of being my sound editor.

你将在我们的电影中做些什么？

What will you be doing on our film?

作为声音剪辑师，还是首席声音剪辑师？

As a sound editor, supervising sound editor?

你可以是首席的，我们稍后会细说这些。

You could be supervising we'll get into those

或者只是监督。

Or or just supervising.

或者有很多声音，好吧。

Or or there's a lot of sound okay.

所以声音剪辑，简单来说，声音剪辑的基本分类包括对话剪辑，它可以分为现场对话剪辑和ADR或循环配音剪辑。

So sound editing, I mean, the the sort of basic look at sound editing is is the food groups of, like, dialogue editing, which can be split up into sort of production dialogue editing and ADR or loop loop type editing.

然后是音效剪辑，还有拟音剪辑，而音效可以涵盖硬音效，比如门关上的声音、汽车、引擎、枪声等等。

And then there's sound effects editing, and then there's also Foley editing, and then sound effects can encompass the hard effects, you know, stuff like doors closes and and cars and engines and guns and stuff.

然后背景音和环境音也是音效范畴的一部分，比如当场景是雨天时，你需要营造出相应的氛围，构建出角色和故事情节所处的世界。

And then backgrounds and atmospheres are also part of that sort of sound effects sort of world like creating, you know, if the scene's a rain scene or you know, whatever type scene that that you sort of need to flesh out the ambiences and create the sort of world that these characters, the storyline inhabits.

声音剪辑师通常与声音设计师紧密合作。

Sound editors often work closely with the sound designers.

在许多不同类型的项目中，声音剪辑师和声音设计师往往是差不多的角色。

Quite often, sound editors and sound designers are the are somewhat the same sort of thing in in a lot of different types of projects.

你知道，像艾玲提到的那样，声音设计师常常会专注于项目中一些需要特别关注或花费更多时间来打磨的声音设计部分。

You know, sound designers a lot of times will, like as Ai Ling was alluding to, like, focus on specific tasks within the project, you know, that take a little bit extra special care or extra special sort of time to sort of develop the sound design aspect.

与此同时，声音编辑师还在剪辑电影或电视节目中需要处理的所有其他内容。

At the same time as that's happening, sound editors are cutting all the other stuff that needs to be cut in in a film or television show.

正如我之前所说，从所有常规音效到环境音，再到对白、现场录音，都需要进行剪辑、编辑和清理。

Anything from, like I said earlier, anything from all the regular sound effects to atmospheres to the dialogue to the production dialogue needing to be cut and edited and cleaned up.

然后，ADR主管会介入，安排所有ADR录音并完成录制。

And then an ADR supervisor would come in and and queue all the ADR and shoot all the ADR.

所有这些都需要完全剪辑好。

All that needs to be cut fully.

拟音师正在表演所有的拟音动作，比如脚步声、人体动作等等。

The Foley artist is performing all the Foley footsteps, know, human movement, what have you.

这些素材随后需要被剪辑并同步，显然要与画面同步，也要与声音编辑师已剪辑的现场录音或音效同步。

That material then needs to be cut and put in sync with generally needs to put in sync obviously with the picture but also in sync with whatever production sound or whatever sound effects that the sound editors have cut.

简而言之，这就是声音编辑师大致的工作内容。

So in a nutshell, that's sort of, you know, the broad strokes of what what a sound editor will do.

好的。

Okay.

当然了，Files先生，您将担任我们的混音师。

And of course, mister Files, you're gonna be our re recording mixer.

告诉我您能带来什么。

Tell me about what you bring to the table.

我有时会用视觉化的角度来思考这个问题。

I I sometimes think about it in like visual terms.

如果你把声音编辑师和声音设计师看作是布景师和美术指导，他们为你这位摄影师准备了所有这些精彩素材，供你拍摄使用。

If you think of the the sound editors and sound designers being the the set decorators and the art directors that are assembling all these wonderful things that you have available to you as a cinematographer to shoot.

然后，根据你选择的镜头和光线如何投射，你会把这些元素诠释给观众体验。

And then depending on what lens selection you use and how you choose the light to fall and all that, you're going to interpret those things for the audience's experience.

所以我们混音时所做的，就是把所有这些我们组装、录制并精心剪辑同步的声音素材，逐帧决定观众将听到什么。

So that's a lot of what we do with mixing is we take all these things that we've assembled, all these sounds that we've created and recorded and meticulously cut into sync, And then you decide from moment to moment what the audience is going to hear.

而这些选择背后的很大一部分，都是由故事驱动的。

And and a lot of the choices behind that are driven by story.

显然，对话必须始终清晰可听。

Obviously, always have to hear the dialogue nice and clear.

这是最重要的，音乐会提供大量情感支持。

That's the most important thing and the music is gonna do a lot of the emotional support.

但你还可以通过音效进行大量的叙事，比如选择突出或弱化某些声音。

But then there's a tremendous amount of storytelling that you can do with sound effects and how you choose to either focus on something or not focus on something.

你在空间中如何放置声音，比如添加混响来营造它身处那个空间的感觉。

Where you put it in the room, know, if you're putting Reverb on it to make it feel like it's in that space.

通过混响，你可以传达很多关于空间的信息。

You can say a lot about a space with the Reverb.

你可以让观众感受到那个房间的氛围，你知道的。

You can tell the audience what that room feels like, you know.

有时候这是一个具体的决定，比如，哦，这个场景需要听起来像一座大教堂。

And and sometimes that's a literal choice like, oh this needs to sound like a big church.

有时候则是一种更情感化的选择，你希望让场景呈现出某种特定的感觉。

And sometimes it's more of an emotional choice that you're trying to make the scene feel a certain way.

因此我们用混响来实现这一点，用均衡器来塑造声音，试图将不同日子、不同地方——有时甚至是世界不同角落——录制的对白统一起来。

So we use Reverb to do that, we use you know, EQ to shape the sound of things and to try to match different pieces of dialogue together that were recorded on different days, different you know, sides of the world sometimes.

所以，混音基本上是整个流程的最后一步，对吧？

So basically the the mix is the end of the funnel, right?

所有我们花了数周时间处理的内容，都在这里汇聚在一起，我们基本上会坐在电影院里，一遍又一遍地看电影，决定哪些声音需要突出。

That's where everything, all the things that we've been working on for weeks and weeks and weeks, they all come together and we all sit in a movie theater basically and watch the movie over and over again and make choices about what we wanna hear.

好的。

Okay.

你们很好地分解了每一个角色的独立职能，但很多时候，你们每个人实际上同时承担了全部三项工作。

So you you all did a great job of breaking down each of those roles as an individual function and yet oftentimes each of you does them does all three of them together.

是什么决定了你们有时只做其中一两项，而不是同时做全部？

What dictates when you might be one or two of those things versus like I'm doing all of them?

我的意思是，如今这些区分在某种程度上是人为的。

I mean, to some degree it's a bit of an artificial distinction these days.

就像克雷格之前说的，有时候很难明确区分音效设计师和剪辑师，同样也很难区分音效设计师、剪辑师和混音师。

Like Craig said earlier, it's like some sometimes it's really hard to draw the line between sound designer and editor, and it's equally hard to draw the line between sound designer, editor, mixer.

部分原因在于Pro Tools，因为一旦我开始处理一个场景，我就会出去录制一些原始素材，带回来后用它来制作音效，然后同步剪辑，接着加上均衡和混响，开始把它混入电影中。

And part of that's because of Pro Tools, because basically as soon as as soon if I'm if I'm approaching a scene and I I go out and I record some source material, I bring it back and I use that to make some sounds, and then I'm gonna cut it in sync, and then I'm gonna start putting some EQ on it and some reverb on it and start mixing it into this into the movie.

现在这一切都在同一个平台上完成了。

That all happens in the same platform now.

而且这一切都是同一个创意过程的一部分。

And and it it it's all part of the same creative process.

我的意思是，我不确定你们怎么样，但我发现很难在剪辑时不同时进行混音。

I mean, I don't know about you guys, but I find it really hard to to to not mix as I cut.

我也是。

Same for me.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

而且这很有帮助。

And and it helps.

我的意思是，历史上，由于技术原因，电影音效的监督剪辑师通常会剪辑一大范围的声音，然后混音师再与监督在混音阶段一起挑选，决定哪些声音在屏幕上搭配得更好。

I mean, you know, historically, you know, with due to technology, for film sounds, you know, Supervising the editors used to, like, cut a broad range of sounds and then the mixer would then, like, pick and choose or together with the supervisor on the stage, pick and choose on the sounds on what would work together on screen, during during the mix.

但现在，就像威尔说的，有了Pro Tools这样的技术。

But now, you know, like Will said, you know, with Pro Tools, you know, the technology.

我觉得在剪辑的同时进行混音，能帮助我判断哪些声音效果更好，等等。

I feel like, mixing it as I'm cutting helps me determine what sounds would work better and and whatnot.

并且在过程中进一步精细调整。

And to fine tune it even more as we go along.

这是一种向前推进的方式，纯粹是件好事。

It's a forward like, it's just a positive thing.

这只是在不断向前推进，逐步实现精细调整。

It's just, you you build forward towards fine tuning.

而且我们这样做还有一个好处，就是能尽早与导演、画面剪辑师建立关系，共同培养一种声音语言。

And there's also the other benefit of kinda how we do it is the relationship with with a director and the pictures the picture editor and and developing that language, that sonic language early on for them.

我认为这对很多导演来说都非常重要。

I think it's really important in a lot of directors.

是的。

Yeah.

我知道有些导演会问，你为什么不这么做呢？

I know I've had directors that are like, why wouldn't you do it this way?

你为什么不参与声音设计和混音呢？

Why aren't you working on the sound design and the mixing?

为什么我要和你合作几个月，然后还得把工作交给你所说的那位混音师？我并不是不尊重那位混音师，但那个人怎么能在短时间内理解我们几个月甚至几周来共同建立的创作默契呢？

Why why is it why is it I work months with you and then we have to turn it over to, you know, a a mixer and no disrespect to that mixer, but how does that person now get the shorthand of what we've been working with for, you know, however many months or weeks.

所以，是的。

So Yeah.

当然，我认为对于艾玲和威尔来说，我们三个人之所以从事这份工作，是因为我们从不把声音工作看作是割裂的部门，也不把它当作孤立的环节。

Definitely, I think, you know, for Ai Ling and and Will, I think the three of us specifically got into what we do because I don't think we think about it any like, as departments or contextualize it as individual things.

这就是声音。

It's it's sound.

这是为电影服务的声音，而正是这种艺术与创作的自由，让我们能够为合作的导演们打造最完美的音轨。

It's sound for the film and and, you know, looking at the artistic and the creative freedom that allows us to do that, to create the ultimate soundtrack for, you know, the directors that we work with.

这几乎是唯一的方式——要担任监督剪辑师、首席设计师，至少也要担任一位重混音师。

That's kind of the only way to do it, know, is to be the supervising editor, to be the sort of lead designer, and to be, you know, at least, you know, one of the re recording mixers.

我们三人都专长于音效，可以说我们都是以音效为导向的人。

And on all of us, we sort of specialize in sound effects, you know, the three of us are sort of sound effects oriented people.

很多时候，我们是主导音效设计师或整体音效设计师，但项目中也会有一两位非常出色的音效设计师与我们合作，尤其是在那些工作量巨大、改动频繁的大制作电影中，光是跟上技术变化、视觉特效这些就已是繁重的任务。

And, you know, a lot a lot of the times, we're sort of the lead sound designer or the overall sound designer, but we also have one or two really good sound designers on the project with us, Especially on the bigger films that are just, know, massive massive amounts of work, massive amounts of changes, just the technical, you know, just keeping up with changes, keeping up with visual effects and and stuff like that.

独立电影和大型制片厂高预算动作片在我们工作方式上，存在着巨大的差异。

I mean, there's a whole gamut of how you do what we do on an independent movie versus how how we would do it on sort of a studio, you know, big budgeted action movie.

但我可以肯定地说，无论项目预算高低、题材如何，我们三人都会为每个项目投入同等的创意、热情和智慧。

But I can say that all three of us still bring the same amount of creativity and passion and and sort of, you know, intellect to to each project no matter the size of budget or what the show is about or whatever, you know.

说到底，声音已经融入了我们的血液，我说是的。

It's like sound is just sort of all in our blood, I said Yeah.

本质上，你知道的。

Essentially, you know.

我甚至会说，从工作流程来看，低成本独立电影和高预算制片厂作品之间非常相似。

And I I would even say, you know, workflow wise, it's it's very similar between the the lower budget indie stuff and the the big budget studio stuff.

最主要的是规模，比如有多少人参与其中，对吧。

The the main thing is the scale of it, like how many people do we have working on it Right.

你知道，我们投入的时间有多长，诸如此类的事情。

You know, how long are we on, that sort of thing.

但过程其实是一样的，只是时间更紧凑了。

But, you know, it's the same sort of process, it's just sort of in a more condensed timeline.

对于剪辑师来说，我先提前道歉，因为我常常会把事情跟画面剪辑联系起来，因为那是我稍微更熟悉一点的领域。

So for picture editors, and I'm gonna apologize in advance for often relating things back to to picture because that's a world I understand a little better.

好吧，没人真正懂声音。

Okay, It's nobody understands sound.

是的。

Yeah.

这就是我们在这里的原因。

That's why that's why we're here.

这就是我们在这里的原因。

That's why here.

你知道，作为声音设计师，当你和导演讨论他们的创作理念时，剪辑师通常会很早就介入，阅读剧本并与导演沟通。

You know, as as being a sound designer and talking to the director about their vision, you know, the editor will often be picture editor will be brought in early to look at the script and consult with the director.

从这些与导演的会议中，你能获得哪些信息？

What can you take away from those meetings with the director?

我知道，导演们经常用其他电影作为参考，来向摄影师、剪辑师、美术设计师、服装部门传达他们的想法。

I I know that a lot of times directors will use other films as a point of reference to get across to the cinematographer, to the editor, to the set designers, to the wardrobe department.

我要追求的就是这种美学风格。

This is the aesthetic that I'm going for.

我要营造的就是这种感觉。

This is the this is the feeling that I'm going for.

声音上也能做到这一点吗？

Can you do that in sound as well?

有没有办法通过观看或聆听其他电影，来确定——恕我用个双关语——我想要的基调是什么？

Is there a way to to look at films or listen to films and say, okay, this is the forgive the pun, the tone that I'm looking for?

是的。

Yeah.

这取决于电影人的不同，有些人会更多地这么做。

Depending on the filmmakers, some do it a lot more than the others.

比如达米恩·查泽雷，他总是会为音效提供声音参考。

Like say, you know, with Damien Chazelle, like, he would always have sound references even for sound.

我是说，即使是音效，他也会用电影作为参考。

I mean, film references even for sound.

比如他导演的电影《登月第一人》，他会指出像《达斯·博特》《拯救大兵瑞恩》《灵魂之子》等几部电影作为参考。

Like say, this movie First Man, that he directed, He would point to like he wants like, you know, he would point to movies like Daz Boot, Saving Private Ryan, a few other, like, Son of Soul.

这可不是你通常会想到的太空电影选择。

Not your obvious space movie choices.

但看完之后，你就能明白他想要的是什么了，比如沉浸于飞船嘎吱作响、建筑轰鸣的强烈感受，还有那些电影所强调的触感——像《爱乐之城》会参考《穷街陋巷》，让你听到城市里的各种声音，比如从汽车里、邻居家中传来的源音乐，诸如此类的地方。

But after watching it, you kinda know what he was after, you know, to be immersed the the intense feeling of feeling the ship, creek and building and and also to feeling the the tactileness of some movies, they would point out, or La La Land who would say like mean streets and then, I guess it's not like to hear, you know, the sounds of the city and hearing like source music coming out from different parts of the city, from a car, from a neighbor, you know, places like that.

当你和达米恩这样理解这种语言、并且拍出支持这些选择的电影的导演合作时，总是很棒的。

It's it's and it's always great when you're working with a director like Damien who understands that language, but also makes movies that support those kinds of choices.

因为有时候我们会遇到一些导演，他们说‘让我的电影听起来像《现代启示录》’，但他们拍的却是《世界末日》。

Because sometimes we work with filmmakers who are like, make my movie sound like Apocalypse Now, but they've made Armageddon, you know.

这两种都没问题，我都喜欢。

And nothing's wrong with either, I love both.

对。

Yeah.

你知道吗

You know what

我的意思是？

I mean?

我也会遇到这种情况，有时候，你记得很久以前看过的一部电影

I I also run into instances where sometimes, you know, the memory of watching a movie maybe a long time ago

嗯。

Mhmm.

会让它看起来好像好很多，然后他们就会说，哦，我就想要像那部电影里某个特定场景、某个特定声音那样，嗯。

Makes it seem like, oh, it's a lot better and then they will go, oh, I just want it to be like, you know, this one particular scene, this one sound in this movie Mhmm.

就比如这个门打开的声音。

For this door open.

对。

Right.

然后，比如七十年代的电影，那时候的声音也都很好。

And then, like, you know, from the seventies movie and then, they all have good sounds back then too.

只是那种感觉而已。

It's just the idea of it.

所以除了你播放它，然后说好。

So other than like you play it and you go Yeah.

也许你只能把它看作是

Maybe you just have to take that as a

是的。

Yeah.

这简直就像是你得回到他们的内心，试着弄清楚，好吧，那让他们感受到了什么，为什么？

It's almost like you have to go put put like, you know, go back in their head and try to figure out, okay, how did that make them feel and why?

我们如今该如何用现代配乐来做到这一点？

And how can we do that now with a modern soundtrack?

所以导演会给你一种他们愿景的感觉，他们想要什么，也许还会给你一些参考影片。

So the director gives you, you know, a sense of what their vision is, what they're going for, maybe, again, giving you films to reference.

当他们对摄影师这样做时，就像艾玲提到的‘调色板’，他们有一套镜头可以使用，来营造特定的情绪和观众感受。

When they do that with a cinematographer, and Ai Ling, you even use this word palette, they have a palette to work with, they have lenses to work with to create certain emotions, certain feelings within the audience.

一旦作为声音工作者的你知道了他们想要什么，那么有哪些技巧和工具，你该如何将这些转化为他们所追求的效果呢？

Once you as sound people know, okay, this is what they're going for, what are the techniques, what are the tools, how how do you manifest that into what they're looking for?

工具本身总是差不多，或者至少大体上是相同的。

How how does it you know, the tools are always gonna be the same or more or less the same.

那你具体怎么做，才能传达出那种感觉呢？

What is it you do to try and get that feeling?

我觉得这其中很大一部分，就在于我们选择使用哪些声音，以及如何呈现它们。

I think so much of it's just about the the choices that we make about what sounds to use and how to present them.

比如《登月第一人》这部电影，成功地营造出非常真实、富有质感的氛围，某种程度上甚至像纪录片一样，显得格外真实。

Like a movie like First Man was so successful at feeling very real and very like textured and it felt, you know, almost documentary esque in some ways, like it felt very authentic.

如果你用那种超级精致的好莱坞风格来制作这部电影，反而会削弱它原本想表达的东西。

And you could have done that movie with the, you know, super slick Hollywood style and it would have undermined, I think what the movie was trying to be.

所以所有这些其实都是关于选择，对吧？

So all those are really just choices about, it's taste, right?

我的意思是，我觉得很多

I mean, I think a lot

是的。

of Yeah.

归根结底，我们被雇佣是因为我们的品味。

We get hired is for our taste at the end of the day.

是的。

And Yeah.

还有我们过去的作品，以及它们在某些项目中带给观众的感受，你知道的。

And our previous work and how it made them feel on certain projects, you know.

对。

Yeah.

每部电影都各有不同。

Every movie is kind of different.

所以有些情况下你希望更贪心一些，比如保留一些对话重叠的部分。

So some you wanted much more greedy or so you would, you know, keep some overlapping dialogue.

每部电影都不一样，就像威尔说的，《登月第一人》有一种小型纪录片的感觉。

Every movie is, you know, has a different thing, you know, you know, like, you know, like Will said, like, first man, small documentary feel.

所以你会尝试挑选声音，制作出契合的音效，并加以处理，使其更好地融入对话和原声轨中。

So you kind of try to, pick sounds and make sounds in that fits and dirty it up to fit into the dialogue, the production track better.

在混音时，你可能会有重叠的对话，有时他们可能故意不希望完全清晰，当然这取决于导演的决定。

And in the mix, you may have overlapping dialogue that sometimes they may purposely, you know, not wanna it's of course up to the director.

当你有重叠对话时，对我们来说，通常要确保每个人的话都能听清楚。

When you have overlapping dialogue, you know, typically for us, you wanna make sure like you hear everyone's dialogue clearly.

但有时候，为了营造纪录片的感觉——仿佛你身处房间中，只听到对话的一部分——你可能会保留一些重叠的台词，其中有些只是无关紧要的闲话。

But and sometimes because you want it to feel like a documentary, you're in a room hearing a part of your conversation, you may wanna have some overlapping dialogue lines that sometimes some lines can be throwaway lines.

所以，这其实就是一种整体的运用，可以是对话，也可以是音乐，或者是音效，嗯。

So, it's, you know, it's just a whole, you know, using different parts of, you know, can be dialogue, can be music, can be sound Mhmm.

确实完全如此。

In fact totally.

是的

Yeah.

或者有时候你希望声音非常精致、更炫目一些，比如超级英雄电影之类的。

Or or something to want it very slick and much more showier sounds maybe for like a, you know, superhero film or something.

你会发现，我知道这在画面剪辑方面也很常见，你会因为某种类型的电影或某种工作风格而被人熟知。

You find that, and I know this again happens in the picture side a lot, that you become known for a certain type of film or a certain style of work.

你觉得这种情况发生在你身上了吗？

Is that do you find that that that has happened to you?

你觉得这有好处吗？比如，当我们做这种类型的电影时，我们就得找艾玲、找克雷格、找威尔；还是说你尽量让自己涉猎更广泛的工作类型？

And do you do you find that it's beneficial and that, okay, we know that if we're going for this type of movie, we've got to call Ai Ling, we've to call Craig, we've to call Will, or do you do you try and be as have have as a broader spectrum of work into your name as possible?

无论是哪种情况，你认为各自有什么其他优势吗？

Are there other advantages to either, you know, being known for either?

哇。

Wow.

说实话，我觉得能有工作就已经很幸运了。

I think it's just lucky to be working, honestly.

我是说，我们所有人，你懂的，我们都没有经纪人。

I mean, none of us I mean, you know, none of us have agents.

对吧？

Right?

你知道的，就是说根本没有

You know, I mean, there's not

对。

Yeah.

根本不存在……我是说，当然你也可以刻意去规划方向，但我不会做这种事。

There's no there's no there's no like, I'm gonna go I I mean, I guess you could.

我之前入行的时候完全没想这么多，就是凭着一腔热爱进入这行，再加上一点好运，身边还有一群靠谱的伙伴，我才有幸参与到不少有意思的项目里，事业也就这么一步步积累起来，越做越好了。

I mean, I didn't I just sort of naively just got into it and just loved what I did and, you know, with a little bit of good luck and and having good people around me, I was able to sort of work on some interesting projects that would just build off of build off of that and build off of and keep building.

你看，在我自己的职业生涯里，我也接触过动作喜剧类的作品，比如《热带惊雷》，还有《死侍》这类的片子。

You know, I in my own career, I have like a a side of me that's sort of this action comedy side, stuff like Tropic Thunder or you know, even Deadpool and and and films like that.

但我也和纽约的达伦·阿罗诺夫斯基导演合作过风格更暗黑的作品，像《黑天鹅》或者《梦之安魂曲》这类，这些影片的风格就完全不一样。

But then I also have this sort of New York filmmaker Darren Aronofsky darker, know, stuff like Black Swan or Requiem for a Dream or you know, that have a just have a sort of a different sort of style to it.

所以这根本不是我事先规划好的。

So that was no master plan on my part.

我喜欢所有这些导演，我也喜欢我参与的每一个项目。

I enjoy all those directors and and I I enjoy every single project that I work on.

我通常会把一些东西带到阿诺夫斯基的电影里，而我九成以上的创意或想法，其实也能用在动作喜剧片里，这么说吧。

I I tend to bring if I brought something to an Aronofsky movie that I, you know, nine times out of 10 that idea or the whatever creativity I can apply that to an action comedy, you know, so to speak.

我觉得我们所有人其实都很努力，也都非常幸运。

I think we're all just very, you know, we've all worked really really hard and and we've all been very fortunate.

但归根结底，我们每个合作的导演，对你工作最大的肯定，就是他们再次打电话给你，说嘿，我们又有新电影了。

But at the bottom line is we've each director that we work with, the greatest compliment you can get for your work is actually to get another call from that director saying, you know, hey, we have another film coming up.

我真的希望你能参与进来，诸如此类的，你知道的。

I really want you to sort of be involved with it and stuff, you know.

我的意思是，我不确定。

I mean, don't know.

我的意思是，威尔，你之前在《星球大战》里待过一段时间。

I mean, Will, you spent some time on Skywalker.

你年轻的时候，是不是有意识地选择去天行者录音室，因为你想要和兰迪在一起，还有……

Was that a conscious choice from when you when you were younger that, you know, you needed I want you wanted to go to Skywalker because you wanted to be around, you know, Randy and

是的。

Oh yeah.

没错，确实是这样。

That that was yeah.

正是如此。

Exactly.

我当时就是想和兰迪、加里、本待在一起，向这些前辈学习，那真是令人难以置信的……

And it was it was because I wanted to be around Randy and Gary and Ben and learn from all those guys and it was you know, it was the most amazing

这些是天行者声音工作室的资深混音师和声音专家吗？

These are veteran mixers sound people at Skywalker Sound?

是的。

Yeah.

我跑去跟着汤姆、加里和本·伯特学习。

I ran to Tom, Gary rides from Ben Burt.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，那些人在七八十年代和九十年代真正重新定义了我们的工作。

And you know those guys really kind of redefined what we do in in the seventies eighties and nineties.

你知道，他们为许多我们深爱的电影做了大量开创性的工作，比如《侏罗纪公园》、《拯救大兵瑞恩》、《接触》、《阿甘正传》，还有《星球大战》、《夺宝奇兵》，等等，名单还能列很长。

You know, they did a lot of really groundbreaking work on you know, movies that we all love like Jurassic Park and Saving Private Ryan and Contact and Forrest Gump and you know, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, you know, the list goes on.

《太空先锋》这部电影，我觉得艾玲和她的团队所做的工作，是对那种美学的一种非常酷的现代延续。

The Right Stuff, which I think you know, in a lot of ways the work that Ai Ling and her crew did was a really cool modern uptake on that kind of aesthetic.

所以，你知道，我喜欢这种老电影和新电影之间的联系。

So, you know, that's the that's the kind of I love those connections between the older movies and the new movies.

但回到最初的问题，我认为在音效领域，我们很幸运，因为能参与足够多的电影，很难被完全定型。

But getting back to the original question, I think that in sound, we're lucky that we get to work on enough movies that we it's hard to get completely pigeonholed.

你知道，当涉及到剪辑师和摄影师时，尤其是剪辑师，他们常常会被贴上标签，比如‘他是拍喜剧的’或者‘他是拍动作片的’。

You know, I think when you have picture editors and cinematographers, picture editors especially, they get pigeonholed to like he's a comedy guy or he's a action guy.

但现实是，一个优秀的剪辑师什么都能剪。

And the reality is a good editor can cut anything.

但他们往往会被定型，因为这份工作太重要了，他们通常会连续参与一部电影一到两年。

But they tend to cause it's such an important job, they do tend to get pigeonholed and also they tend to be on movies for a year or two.

而我们通常参与电影的时间是三到十二个月左右。

Whereas we tend to be on the movies for, you know, three to twelve months.

所以我们一年能参与的电影数量比他们多得多。

So we get to do a lot more movies in a year than they do.

但话又说回来，我确实现在被人视为一个科幻动作片专家，对此我完全接受，因为我热爱这个类型。

But that being said, mean, I definitely, I think have been known now as being like a sci fi action guy, which I'm perfectly fine with because I love that genre.

无论是作为电影观众，还是从我们工作的创意角度来看，这都是一个绝佳的土壤。

Both as a, you know, film watcher, but also it's a great it's a it's a great creative breeding ground for what we do.

所以，当我们跟专业人士，比如你们，还有正在观看的年轻新人交谈时，他们会听到你们谈论像天行者音效这样的地方，或者你们日常工作的那些大型混音棚。

So a lot of times when we're we're talking to professionals like yourselves and, you know, somebody younger who's just starting out is watching this, and they'll hear you talk about, you know, in this case Skywalker sound or being on some of the big mixed stages that you work on in your, you know, in your natural habitat.

有时候，你会有种感觉：他们离我们的工作太遥远了。

Sometimes you can you can have that feeling of like, well, they're so far removed from what I do.

我当然希望有朝一日能像他们那样，但眼下我手头的工具和正在做的项目与他们截然不同，然而你们都提到过，无论是在独立电影还是大片中，其实并没有那么大的差别。

You know, I would love to be where they are, but the tools that I have at my disposal right now and the type of projects I'm doing now are so different, yet you've all sort of said, it's not so much different whether I'm on an indie thing or on a bigger thing.

现在我们都不得不在家工作了。

Well, here we all are now having to work from home.

我知道你们都在继续工作。

I know you're all still working.

我想也许我们可以轮流说说，你们在家都用些什么设备，和你们在专业环境中使用的设备到底有什么不同。

I thought maybe it'd be fun to sort of go around the room as it were and just talk about what what you're using at home and how it's different really from what you would be using, you know, if you're in the pro environment.

我不知道谁先来开头。

So I don't know who wants to kick us off.

也许克雷格，你来说说吧。

Maybe Craig, why don't you tell us

克雷格有哦，

Craig's got Oh,

嗯。

well.

我是，是的。

I'm Yeah.

他确实如此。

He does.

对。

Yeah.

我确实把我的声音设计工作室带回家了，我非常幸运。

I'm pretty I actually brought my sound design you know studio home home with me and I was very fortunate.

我几年前买了一栋房子，后面有个很大的娱乐室，当时我不太确定要怎么用它，但大概在2015年左右，我想着要在家里建点东西，我根本不想建一个像影院那样的录音室。

I I bought a house a few number of years ago and had a big giant rec room in the back and I didn't quite know what I wanted to do with it but I was just you know, I guess around late twenty fifteen I was like I'm gonna build something at home and I basically didn't want to build I didn't want to build a studio like a theater.

我不想建一个又黑又暗的房间，因为我们已经花太多时间在黑暗的房间里了。

I didn't want to build a big black dark room because we tend to spend a lot of time in dark rooms.

我想要一个创意空间。

I wanted a creative space.

我想要一个创意空间，但同时也希望有能力完成最高端的工作。

I wanted a creative space, but I wanted the ability to be able to do as much high end work as I can.

所以说实话，我制定了一个预算，买了一个大约14英尺的屏幕，还配了一个16通道的调音台，比如S6或者S40。

So honestly, I put a budget together and I got a, you know, I got about a 14 foot screen and I have a little 16 fader s, you know, an s six, the m 40, like, or s 40.

还有Mac Pro、HD X3和矩阵，我还在天花板上安装了一个投影仪。

And Mac Pro, HD X three, and a matrix, and I got a projector that I put in the ceiling.

我请了一位声学专家来，我们一起对房间做了很多声学处理。

I had an acoustician guy come out and and we kinda did a lot of acoustic work on the room.

我有一个基础的七点二系统，不，应该是七点一加四，这是我基本的家庭Atmos系统。

And, you know, I have a basic, a small seven dot two no, seven dot one dot four, I guess is my basic home Atmos system.

我使用Dolby Atmos桥接器来通过Dolby Atmos的软件和他们的制作软件进行监听。

I use the Dolby Atmos bridge to be able to monitor with the Dolby Atmos, you know, software, their production software.

而且

And

所以，克雷格，你这有点打破常规了

So Craig, you're kind of blowing the curve for

对我们来说是这样。

us on this.

是的。

Yeah.

抱歉。

Sorry.

我知道。

I know.

克雷格是

Craig is

在他的自然环境中

in his natural environment

现在。

right now.

我的意思是，我其实真的想要，是的。

I mean, I I actually want yeah.

我实际上正盯着我的桌子。

I actually literally staring at my my my desk.

我的意思是，老实说，马特，这源于一种需求。

I mean, honestly for me, Matt, it came It was born out of a need.

我通常会说，我长期驻扎在福克斯，之后经常去纽约。

I tend You know, I've been I was based at Fox for a long time and then I kind of would go to New York a lot.

我会回家。

I'd come home.

我开始参与其他流媒体项目，比如Netflix，还有一个叫《怪奇物语》的项目，它在2016年初出现了。

I started doing other projects streaming like Netflix and streaming and a project called Stranger Things that I started in '20 early twenty sixteen kinda came along.

因此，我需要在家进行高端制作的需求很快就变得非常明显了。

So the need for me to do high end work at home was pretty pretty apparent pretty quickly.

事实上，你知道，因为我们所有人都在配音棚和高端声音设计室里待了很久，所以回到一个更小的房间里，感觉真的很糟糕，对吧？

And the fact is, you know, we all because we've all spent a lot of time on dub stages and really high end sound design rooms, it kinda sucks to go back to just a little a little smaller room, you know?

所以你希望像威尔和艾琳之前提到的那样，尽早开始混音，比如添加混响和均衡器之类的处理。

So you wanna feel like what, you know, Will both Will and Ai-Ling mentioned earlier about mixing early, like mixing, adding reverbs and EQ and stuff.

但只有在一个你能够信任、并且熟悉的房间里，你才能真正做好这些事情。

Well, you can only really do those things if you're in a room that you can kinda trust and you kinda know.

而这一切正是由此而生的，你知道的，技术和特别是Avid技术让我能够真正地在家完成这些工作。

And that's where this sort of was born out of, you know, and and the technology and specifically Avid technology has allowed me really to to be able to do that from home.

好的。

Okay.

所以，Will 和 Ai-Ling，你们有没有像 Craig 那样规模宏大的设置，还是规模小一些？

So maybe maybe Will and Ai-Ling, you have something as as grandiose as what Craig's could set up or maybe it's a somewhat smaller scale?

我在工作时的房间和 Craig 的非常相似。

Well, I've got a very similar room to Craig at work.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我平时的房间基本上就是 Craig 的家庭录音室。

So my my normal room is like Craig's home studio, basically.

那是一个九点一六的 Atmos 房间，配备 Myers 和所有相同的设备，Matrix、S6，和 Craig 的房间非常相似。

It's like a nine one six Atmos room with Myers and and all the same stuff, Matrix and S6 and very very similar room to Craig's.

他用的是 JBL M2，我用的是 Meyer Acheron，但除此之外，我们经常互相传输素材，听感都非常棒。

He's got the JBL m twos and I've got the Meyer Asheron's, but other than that it's it's in this, you know we send stuff back and forth all the time and it sounds great.

在家，我只有一个七点一系统，配有 HD X3 和几对 S1，还有一个音箱底座，我的扬声器是 JBL 708。

At home, I've got just a seven one system and I've got an HD X three and an s a couple s ones and a dock and, I've got the JBL seven zero eights, for my speakers.

而且，它实际上效果非常好。

And, it actually works great.

我的意思是，我缺少了对Atmos的体验。

I mean, I I'm missing having Atmos.

我真希望当初早点决定安装，但你知道的，也许我现在有时间来安装了。

I wish I had pulled the trigger on that a little earlier, But, you know, maybe I'll have some time to put that in now.

我不确定。

I don't know.

那你呢，Ai-Ling？

How about you, Ai-Ling?

在工作时，是的。

At work, yeah.

它有点像七点一系统，使用Meyer Asheron和一些环绕音箱。

It's kinda like it's seven one, Meyer, Asheron, and some rounds.

而且在福克斯，他们仍然在使用那些设备，我想是Command Icon。

And still they at Fox, they, still have those, I think it's the command, the icon.

不，没有。

And, no.

只是有时候，你知道的，得去另一个有SxS和Atlas的房间。

It's only sometimes then, you know, get to move into the other room that has a SxS there, with Atlas.

而在家的时候，因为我的设置是临时赶出来的，但这些年我买了不同的设备。

And, while at home, because it was like very last minute setup for me, but I had bought different gears, over the years.

所以，我快速用一台旧Mac Pro、三块硬盘、Omni 708为我的法国项目搭了个临时系统，还暂时在环绕声系统里加了两个其他音箱。

So, just quickly set up something with, a trash can Mac Pro, HD x three, Omni seven zero eight for my, France and, just temporarily just put two other speaker in this surround.

所以现在就是一个五声道系统。

So it's just like a five one.

然后现在我用的是几年前就有的Artist Mix和Artist Control。

And then for now, using an artist mix and artist control that I had years ago.

是的。

Yeah.

但我在想，这就像

But thinking about it as like

马特，Avid 的全套产品都为你准备好了。

full gamut of Avid products there for you, Matt.

我的意思是，

Like I mean,

事实上，正是这一点让我们能够在家工作，因为我们可以在家混音，你知道的。

the reality is it really is what lets us keep working at home, is that we can mix at home, know.

只要你的音箱不错，电脑够快，你用的就是和工作中一模一样的工具，只是在一个更小的房间里。

We as long as you've got a decent set of speakers and you've got a fast enough computer, you know, it's the same tools that we use all day at work, we're just in a smaller room.

对。

Right.

我想我刚才想表达的重点，希望我们已经说清楚了，你其实已经提到过，这完全关乎规模。

And I guess that's the point I was trying to get to hopefully and I think we did is that and you really did say this already, it is all about scale.

你可以做同样的工作，更重要的是，即使在基础系统上也能完成。

Like you can do the same kind of work and even more importantly, know, do it on a basic system.

所以，如果我拍独立电影，刚起步时，可能会用一台笔记本电脑，配上一个简单的控制面板，比如 S1，还有 Pro Tools 来做混音，然后我可以把它交给艾琳、克雷格或威尔，他们拥有自己的专业技能和全套设备，一切都能无缝衔接。

So if I'm doing independent film and I'm just starting out, I might, you know, start out on a simple I get my laptop and maybe a small control surface like an S1 and my Pro Tools and I do my mix and then I can bring it to Ai Ling or Craig or Will and they have, you know, their talents and their full complement of tools and everything just sort of translates.

你知道吗，你们每个人谈到的一个反复出现的主题是环绕声，我想很好奇，随着环绕声从5.1发展到7.1，再到现在的杜比全景声，你们的工作方式和技巧发生了怎样的变化？

You know, one thing that was a recurring theme through what you each talked about was surround sound and I would kinda curious to know how your worlds have changed and how your techniques have changed as surround sound has evolved from five one to seven one to now Dolby Atmos.

这是否改变了你们所做的工作、能够做到的事情，以及你们在声音设计和混音上的方法？

Does that change what you do and what you're able to do and your approach to sound design and mixing?

对于混音来说，确实有变化。

Definitely for mixing.

就我个人而言，我在做 Atmos 声音设计时，并没有太多改变我的方法。

I would say, personally, I haven't changed my design approach very much for Atmos, you know.

偶尔我会特意制作或剪辑一些专门针对天花板的声音效果。

There's the occasional thing where I'll, you know, make something specifically or cut something specifically for the ceiling.

但很多时候，我是在逐段观看和混音的过程中做出这些选择的。

But a lot of times, I'm making those choices as I'm going through the reel and mixing.

这无疑提供了一个更广阔、分辨率更高的画布供你创作。

It's certainly a much broader and higher resolution canvas to paint on.

我们在《隐形人》这部电影上玩得很开心，因为导演在第二天我就在做声像移动时，让一个人走路的声音一直从屏幕边缘移出去。

We had a lot of fun on this Invisible Man movie, because the director on like day two, I was panning something and I sort of panned somebody walking and just had kept him going off the screen.