独家专访：莱斯利·弗莱马尔谈在《穿普拉达的女王》中真实版的“艾米丽”

因为副助理和第一助理的典型任期是一到两年。

Because a typical tenure for second assistant and first assistant is one to two years.

对。

Yes.

我觉得我待了六个月，可能八个月吧。

I'd say I was there for six months, maybe eight.

好的。

Okay.

但吉尔早就想走了，她一直说我准备好了，可我心里清楚，我还没准备好。

But Jill was really ready to move on, and she kept convincing me that I was ready, and I was like, I am not ready.

你懂的吧。

You know?

因为那时候两个职位的分工非常明确。

Because there was, like, very distinct roles.

第一助理负责所有日程安排，可能还管一些业务相关的事，而当时的第二助理主要处理一些个人事务。

The first assistant would do, like, all of her scheduling and maybe more, like, business related stuff, and then the second assistant at the time would do more of the personal stuff.

对。

Right.

比如安排她的日程、给她买咖啡和午餐，确保车都备好之类的。

Like, that type of scheduling, getting her coffee, her lunch, you know, making sure her car was there.

任务看起来简单多了，所以当她提议我升职时，我拒绝了。

Much simpler for what seemed to me as simpler tasks at So the when she offered me the promotion, I said, no.

谢谢。

Thank

不客气。

you.

那是什么让你改变主意的？

And what made you come around?

我觉得安娜给吉尔打了电话，说：吉尔，你得说服她。

I think Anna called Jill in the office and was like, Jill, you need to convince her.

哦，这真贴心。

Oh, that's nice.

所以那时候我就知道，我没法拒绝。

So then I was like, I I knew I couldn't say no.

你记忆中最深刻的，是刚为安娜·温图尔工作的第一年里的哪些事？

What are your, like, core memories of that first year working for Anna Wintour?

是的。

Yeah.

对我来说，那感觉就像读研。

I mean, it felt to me like grad school.

简直就是最好的研究生院。

Like, this is like the best grad school.

就好像我刚被哈佛研究生院录取一样。

Like, I just got into Harvard grad school.

对，我就有这种感觉。

Yeah.

对我来说，就是这样一种体验。

To me, that's what it felt like.

当时我就觉得，安娜根本不在乎我们能不能偷听她的电话。

And I was like, Anna had no boundaries where we could listen in on her calls.

她的会议室门永远敞开，随时欢迎别人进来。

Her doors are open for meetings.

只要你认真观察，能学到的东西太多了。

Like, if you really were to pay attention, so much to learn.

我确实感受到了，也很珍惜这一点，虽然那时候我还年轻，什么也不懂。

And I actually did feel that and appreciated that even though I was, like, young and green and just didn't really know.

一切都快得让人应接不暇，但我就在现场。

It was all moving really fast, it felt like to me, but I was there.

我身处这一切的核心。

I was in the heart of it.

而你当时接触的那些人，

And the people that you're networking with

是的。

Yeah.

你知道的，太宝贵了。

You know, invaluable.

一切都特别真实，说实话，我觉得自己特别幸运。

Everything just felt real I felt really lucky, to be honest.

你的朋友和家人明白吗？

Did your friends and family Oh.

理解吗？

Understand?

不理解。

No.

我这个人本来就不爱炫耀，也不会随便到处说。

And I I actually I'm the type of person that doesn't gloat or, like, just overshare.

我就觉得，这不过是我的工作而已。

I was just like, this is my job.

别再问我这些问题了。

Like, please stop asking me questions.

但每个人总是问个不停，我这个人本来就不太爱多说。

But everyone always had questions, and I just I'm kind of like that.

是的。

Yeah.

我性格内敛，就觉得这是工作，直接把话题掐断了就算了。

I'm reserved, and I was like, you know, it's work, and I would just shut it down.

但你知道吗？我其实很惊讶，连书里描写的安娜办公室的紧张程度都让我没想到——安迪连私人电话都不能接，连‘是’都不能多说一个字。

But was it like I mean, I was shocked even knowing what the intensity of Anna's office that in the book, Andy can't answer a personal phone call and say a one word yes.

没错。

Correct.

那是不是真的

Was that

我不确定是不是真这样，但至少你父母是绝对不可能在上班时间给你打电话的。

I don't know if that's true, but that is Your how your parents wouldn't call you at work.

当然不可能。

Oh, absolutely not.

他们心里清楚。

And they knew that.

我的意思是，这种事挺少见的。

I mean, that's pretty rare.

是的。

Yes.

那简直就像军队一样。

That's it's like the military.

对。

Yes.

那里一点都不讲人情。

There was nothing personal.

那里根本不会掺杂个人情感。

Nothing personal happened in there.

没错。

Right.

我也没问他的私人问题。

And I didn't ask his personal questions.

我也没问那些初级员工的私人问题。

I didn't ask the junior personal questions.

当时的情况是，生意忙得不可开交，作为新人，我必须早上七点半就到岗。

It was like, business was booing at well, as the junior, I would have to be at the desk at 07:30

明白了。

Okay.

她会打电话过来。

And she would call.

明白了。

Okay.

到了晚上，你有时候得带着文件走，直到

And then in the evening, you were leaving with the book sometimes until

做完为止。

Whatever time it was finished.

九点十分。

09:10.

是的。

Yeah.

于是你就搬到了沙利文街，这样离还书点更近。

And so then you moved to Sullivan Street, so you could be closer to the book drop off.

没错。

That's Yes.

这真是很有责任心。

That's real commitment.

我一开始觉得，这样对睡眠其实挺好的。

I well, at first, it's good for your sleep.

人力资源部告诉我，必须早上七点半到岗，我一听就慌了，刚从大学毕业……

HR told me that I had to be at work at 07:30, and I panicked because coming out of college,

我甚至都不觉得

I don't even think I'd

以前从来没九点前醒过。

woken up before nine ever.

所以。

So

这让我挺紧张的。

that made me nervous.

后来我才意识到，得等这本书看完才能回家。

And then realizing that I had to wait until this book was done, you know, before I got to go home.

咱们再提醒一下，这里说的书是指什么。

And just remind people what we mean by the book.

不是《穿普拉达的恶魔》那本书。

We don't mean The Devil Wears Prada.

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

我们说的是那个杂志的样稿，基本上把书里前面、中间那些时尚内容剪贴上去。

We mean it was a mock up of the magazine where, basically, they would paste in the stories from the front of the book, you know, center of the book, all the fashion stories.

是用活页圈装订的吗？

In like a spiral ring?

对。

Yes.

它完全模仿杂志的样式，安娜可以随时抽掉页面做调整，或者贴上便利贴。

And it would it would mimic the magazine, and Anna was able to remove pages and make changes, or she would put Yes.

贴满了很多便利贴。

Post Lots of post it notes.

我觉得这个不好。

Like, I don't like this.

删掉这个。

Kill this.

来找我。

See me.

是的

Yeah.

把这个挪一下。

Move this.

天哪。

Oh my god.

这么多‘叫我’的便签。

So many see me's.

所以我得去拿那本书。

So then I'd have to get the book.

她每天早上进来时会把书给我，让我处理所有标了‘叫我’的页面，然后我就得打电话说：‘Anna想见你。’

She would hand me the book when she came in the morning, go through all the see me's, then I'd have to call and be like, Anna wants to see you.

大家在背后都会翻白眼，心想：‘今天又贴了这么多便签。’

And everyone would be like, roll their eyes behind the scenes like, oh, there's so many post its today.

到了月底，那些便签真的越贴越多。

And by the end of the month, the post its kind of got It's true.

他们

They

是的

Yeah.

你希望他们能筛选掉一些。

You hope they winnow down.

他们确实这么做了。

And they and they do.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

《预演》马上回来。

The Run-Through will be back in a moment.

全面的

Comprehensive.

机智风趣

Witty.

富有推测性

Speculative.

批判性强

Critical.

见解深刻

Insightful.

发人深省

Profound.

覆盖面广

Wide ranging.

希望它不至于太过一本正经

Hopefully, it doesn't take itself too too seriously.

我是大卫·雷姆尼克，每周在《纽约客》广播节目中，我和我的同事们都会努力理清这个混乱世界正在发生的事。

I'm David Remnick, and each week on The New Yorker Radio Hour, my colleagues and I try to make sense of what's happening in this chaotic world.

希望你在收听播客的时候，也能加入我们，一起聆听《纽约客广播小时》。

I hope you'll join us for the New Yorker Radio Hour wherever you listen to podcasts.

深思熟虑、精致得体、公正，就是那种真实的感觉。

The thoughtful, exquisite, just, you know, real.

我们今天在这儿，是因为我主动联系了你。这些年我总听人说，真正的艾米莉可能是莱斯利，也可能是吉尔。

We are obviously here because I reached out because I'd heard over the years, oh, you know, the real Emily was maybe Leslie, maybe Jill.

那时候凯·杨确实在安娜的办公室，但我们从未见过面，也从来没直接聊过。

Kay Young was in Anna's office around that time, but we'd never met, and I never talked to you directly.

下周一我们有个读书会活动，活动结束后还会安排一场对话。

So we're doing a event for a book club on Monday, we're having conversation afterward.

我就想，要是能请到一位被大家觉得可能是艾米莉的人来，那该多有意思。

And I was like, it'd be fun to have of anyone who is a suggestion of who Emily might be.

普卢姆·莱斯说，她女儿们觉得她就是艾米莉。

And Plum Sykes is like her daughters think she's the Emily.

但她显然不是，她自己也没去澄清过这件事。

She's definitely not, which she's not debunked.

但后来我们通了电话，你很坦率地说，这事根本没得商量。

But then we spoke on the phone, and you very sort of frankly said, well, there's it's not really up for discussion.

我雇了劳伦，我们面对面坐了八个月。

I hired Lauren, and we sat across from each other for eight months.

你以前有没有谈过这件事？

Can you have you ever talked about this before?

没有。

No.

我从来没谈过。

I haven't.

你真的觉得自己就是真正的艾米莉吗？

Are you do you feel confidently that you are the real Emily?

没有。

No.

我知道我不是。

I I know I am.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Correct.

我就是艾米丽。

I am Emily.

我得说，虽然方式不同，但我一直对回忆录特别着迷，因为你的个人故事，往往也是别人的故事。

I have to say, this has been obviously in different ways, but I'm fascinated by memoirs in general, and how your own story is always someone else's story too.

这一点，我一直挺纠结的。

And that's something I've, you know, struggled with.

我写过不少非虚构作品，但始终不敢发表，毕竟总担心会牵连到身边的人。

I've done nonfiction writing, and I just have never felt comfortable publishing it because you're worried about other people in your life.

所以我觉得，无论是回忆录作者还是小说家——毕竟大多数小说都源于真实生活——都很难把握这个分寸。

And so I do think that most memoir writers and fiction writers, because most fiction is based on something, it's it's a difficult needle to thread.

我想知道，你第一次听说这本书是什么时候？

And I wonder when was the first time you heard about this book?

那时候我刚离开安娜的办公室，正在塔尼·古德曼手下工作。

So I was actually working for Tani Goodman at the time I had left Anna's office.

她当时是《Vogue》的时尚总监。

Who was Vogue's fashion director at the time.

我曾经向安娜表达过想进时尚部门的意愿，特别想上片场工作，她说没法直接给我职位，但可以让我去面试。

So I had, expressed interest to Anna that I wanted to work in the fashion department, and that I really wanted to work on set, and she told me that she couldn't give me the job, but she would allow me to interview for it.

于是我去了塔尼那儿面试，最后顺利调到了时尚部门。

So I interviewed with Tani and ended up moving into the fashion department.

后来有一天，我正坐在和塔尼共用的办公室里，突然接到安娜办公室的电话，说她想见我，我一下子心凉了。

Cut to I'm in Tani's office that we shared at the time, and I get a call from Anna's office saying that she wanted to see me, and my heart sunk.

因为安娜从来不会单独叫助理去她办公室。

I was like, she never would call in an assistant into her office.

我当时真的特别意外。

So I was very taken back by that.

于是我去了她办公室，她开口就问：‘劳伦·韦斯伯格是谁？’

So then I went into her office, and she said, who's Lauren Weisberger?

我说，她是您的初级助理。

And I said, she she was your junior assistant.

她在这儿待的时间不长，大概八个月左右，结果她说，她写了一本书，讲的是咱们的事，而且说你比我还糟。

You know, she was only here for a short period of time, maybe eight months, and she's like, well, she wrote a book about us, and you're worse than me.

我当时

And I

说

was

什么？

like, what?

我想多问几句，但根本不敢多问她。

Like, I wanted to, like, ask more questions, but you can't really ask her that many questions.

我就只好说，哦，这样啊。

And I was like, oh, okay.

她说，我收到了一本校样，就是书出版前的样稿，她让我看了。

And she's like, well, I I received The Galley, which is like a book before it's published, and she let me read it.

那本校样其实挺刻薄的，后来肯定是编辑介入了，改得温和多了。

It was actually quite mean, the galley, and I think, obviously, an editor came in and really softened it and made it.

具体哪些地方改了？

In what ways?

你还记得吗？

Do you remember?

我记不太清了，但就是感觉整本书少了点轻松感。

I don't remember exactly, but everyone just wasn't there wasn't this, like, lightness to it.

我记得当时觉得特别沉重，真的挺伤人的。

It it felt quite dark, I remember thinking, and I found that quite hurtful.

最后出版的版本，比她原本写的要轻快、友善多了。

I think what got put into the world is a much lighter, nicer version of what she actually wrote.

所以我脑子里留下的，就是这个最终面世的版本。

So I think that's what kinda lives in my mind because that's what end up being put out there.

但那时候我真觉得，这就像一种背叛。

But I remember feeling like it was a betrayal at the time.

你知道，那时候大家都不太公开谈论自己的工作，也不是说有多保密，就是压根儿不提，突然这么一曝光，感觉特别不自在。

You know, people weren't, like, very public about their jobs, and everything was not secretive, but, like, you just didn't talk about it, and it was like it just felt like this exposure.

尽管有人明确建议她把这写成小说。

Even though someone obviously advised her to make it fiction.

书里很多内容其实都来自我和她亲身经历的事。

It was really based off of a lot of things that, you know, I lived, she lived.

你有没有认出自己说过的话？

Did you recognize things you said?

当然有。

Definitely.

是的。

Yeah.

我确实跟她说过，不知道有多少女孩会羡慕这份工作。

I I definitely told her a million girls would kill for

这份工作。

the job.

这句台词是我的。

That was my line.

这句台词确实是我的，因为我当时真的这么想，而且我知道她其实并不一定想待在那儿。

That was definitely my line because I actually really believed that, and I knew that she didn't necessarily wanna be there.

我就是有点好奇。

I'm just curious.

当安娜把校样稿给你的时候，是吗？

When Anna gave you the galley Mhmm.

你是不是拿到书就赶紧跑到走廊里，然后就开始看了？

Did you, like, take it immediately into the hallway and, like, start reading?

我觉得我大概也会这么做。

I think that's probably what I would do.

你是等到回家才看的吗？

Did you wait till you got home?

对。

Yeah.

我等到回家才看。

I I waited till I got home.

我觉得那会儿我们特别忙。

I I think we were, like, really busy.

当时Tani可能正在为一场大型拍摄做准备，我心想天哪。

Like, Tani was probably packing up for a big photoshoot, and I was like, oh my god.

这上面到底会写什么？

Like, what is this thing gonna say?

但你一看到就知道了，没错。

But immediately, you knew that Yeah.

内容肯定跟你在劳伦身边的日子有关。

It was gonna be about your time with Lauren.

你能说说你是怎么雇用劳伦的吗？或者你是怎么知道自己就是她书里写的那个艾米莉的？

Can you describe your process of hiring Lauren, or how you knew that you were the Emily character she describes in the book?

说实话，劳伦根本没怎么跟其他人来往。

I mean, to be honest, Lauren didn't really socialize with anyone else.

我觉得她在沃格的经历主要就是和我还有安娜在一起。

So I think her experience at Vogue was really with me and with Anna.

你知道，办公室里忙得不可开交，根本没时间交朋友，得主动往外头拓展，我确实这么做了，但就是真的太忙了。

You know, you're you're quite busy in the office, so it you don't really have much time to you have to make an effort to make friends outside the office, which I did, but you're you're just really busy.

而且我觉得她也得适应一段时间，毕竟刚毕业，很多事情都得从头教她，她对圈子里的人也都不熟。

And I think she also had a learning curve because she just graduated from college, and I had to teach her all of these things, and she didn't really know who anyone was either.

我能理解那种感觉。

And I I could relate to that.

我记得面试她的时候，我们聊得挺投缘的，她特别聪明。

And I remember I mean, we had a nice conversation when I interviewed her, and she is very smart.

我就觉得她一定能很快上手。

And she I just felt like she would be able to get it quickly.

她确实说过，她想进《纽约客》是吗？

Was it true that she was open that she wanted to work at The New Yorker and

是的。

Yes.

她没跟我提过，但她跟当时的执行主编说，她真的很想当作家。

She she didn't tell me that, but she told the managing editor at the time that she really wanted to be a writer.

我记得她参加过一次写作测试，结果并不顺利，人家建议她去上一门课。

And I recall her taking a writing test, and, you know, things didn't necessarily go her way, and they suggested that she take this class.

我听说那位老师或者那门课跟她说：写你熟悉的东西。

And I think the story that I was told was that this teacher or, you know, this course kinda said, write what you know.

据我所知，她的写作生涯就是从这儿开始的。

And I think, you know, as the story goes, that's where it started.

她和我从来没聊过这事，她走后我们再也没说过话。

Her and I never talked about it, and we never talked again after she left.

你后来没见过她？

You've never seen her?

没有。

No.

二十年都没见过。

In twenty years?

没有。

No.

哇。

Wow.

嗯哼。

Mm-mm.

你觉得如果你们俩和好了，会是什么样子？

What do you think it would be like if you guys were united?

我觉得

I think

肯定会很尴尬。

it would be very awkward.

我觉得。

I think.

我的意思是，我并不记恨她，但那件事已经变得不值得再提了。

I mean, I don't hold a grudge towards her, but it's just it became something that I don't think Bigger than anyone.

这一点我明白，所以我觉得没什么好说的。

That I knew, and so I think it would just there's nothing to be said.

这本书里的情节和现在大家把安迪·萨克这个角色和电影联系在一起很像，但她在片中表现得真的那么格格不入吗？

What is similar to the book in the and and, obviously, now we associate so much the her the Andy Sack character with the movie, but was she a fish out of water in as stream away as she presents it?

是的。

Yes.

我觉得她确实如此。

I I do I do think she was.

我记得她刚从康奈尔大学毕业。

I believe I recall she had just graduated from Cornell.

她为此感到骄傲，觉得喝杯咖啡、吃个汉堡、来点土豆泥这种事，好像浪费了她这么多年读书的投入。

She took pride in that and felt like maybe getting coffee and, you know, hamburgers and mashed potatoes was like just felt like she had just invested all this time in her education.

我来自加拿大。

I came from Canada.

我没法完全体会那种心态，但我觉得她就是觉得眼前这些事配不上她的水平。

I couldn't really relate to that IV mentality, but I think she just felt like the tasks at hand were below her.

安娜吃汉堡和土豆泥了吗？

Did Anna eat hamburgers and mashed potatoes?

是的。

Yes.

真的吗？

Wow.

我觉得是皇家顿酒店。

From the Royalton, I think, was a hotel.

对。

Right.

没错。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

要么是牛排，要么是汉堡，都要特别生的。

Either a steak or a hamburger, really rare.

是的。

Yeah.

烤土豆，还有土豆泥。

Baked potato, mashed potatoes.

对。

Yeah.

那时候的饮食就是这样的。

That was, like, the diet Okay.

当时嘛。

At the time.

真厉害。

Wow.

是的。

Yeah.

你觉得她当时最难适应的是什么？

What do you remember being the the hardest learning curve for her?

对我来说，推动我的动力——我也只能代表我自己——是我真的特别喜欢时尚，希望这辈子能一直干这行。

For me, the driving force, and I can only speak for myself, was that I really loved fashion and wanted my career long term to be in fashion.

我特别喜欢拍照片的过程。

I loved the photoshoots.

我热爱摄影。

I love photography.

我爱衣服。

I love clothes.

我爱这其中的艺术感。

I love the art of it.

我觉得她的目标和我不太一样。

And I think for her, the endgame was different.

我觉得她想当个作家。

I think she wanted to be a writer.

并不是说她从这段经历中得不到对写作有帮助的东西。

Not that she couldn't get things out of that experience that would help a writing career.

很明显，她确实得到了。

Obviously, she did.

但我觉得，时尚这部分根本吸引不了她。

But I think the fashion part of it just was did not interest her.

对。

Right.

我想澄清一下事实和虚构，因为我们在Vogue讨论选这本书作为下一本读书会读物的时候，发现没人真正读过这本书。

I wanna do a little fact versus fiction because a lot of us at Vogue, when we were talking about picking this book as our next book club Mhmm.

大家都只是看过电影。

Realized that no one had read the book.

哦。

Oh.

只看过电影。

Just in the movie.

好的。

Okay.

读这本书挺有意思的，能了解到21世纪初在《Vogue》工作是什么样子，但也不禁怀疑哪些是真事，哪些是她大幅虚构的。

And reading it, it's sort of fascinating to hear about what it was like working at Vogue in the early aughts, but also wondering what was actually true and what she sort of largely fictionalized.

明白了。

Okay.

我觉得电影里那句最出名的台词，其实不是人人都这么说的，就你一个人老挂在嘴边。

So I do think it's amazing that one of the most infamous lines in the movie, not everyone was saying it, just you were saying it.

我肯定说过这话。

I think I definitely said it.

我平时就会这么说，

Something I would say,

就是‘有一百万个女人恨不得抢这个职位’。

which is a million women would kill for this job.

所以，《女孩》。

So Girls.

是的。

Yes.

就在本月早些时候，我采访了安娜最近的一些助理，我们谈到那种‘整装待发’的时刻其实非常相似。

And earlier this month, when I interviewed some of Anna's more recent assistants, we were talking about how the gird your loins moment really was quite similar.

你能描述一下安娜到来时是什么情景吗？

Can you describe what it was like when Anna would arrive?

天哪。

Oh my god.

那真是乱成一团。

It was such panic.

不过你得把慌乱藏起来。

It well, but you had to hide it.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得随着时间推移，这种情况慢慢就消失了。

And I think over time, it went away.

其实到最后，我并不怕她。

Like, I wouldn't I wasn't afraid of her by the end.

但刚开始的时候，我确实很紧张，我相信劳伦也是，虽然我不能替她说话，但她见到安娜来的时候肯定也挺忐忑的。

But at the beginning, I definitely was, and I'm sure Lauren felt, you know, I can't speak for her, but I'm sure she felt nervous when she would arrive.

她一到，所有的报纸——《泰晤士报》、《华盛顿邮报》、《纽约邮报》、《每日邮报》——都得摊成扇形摆好。

So she would arrive, all of the newspapers, you know, The Times, Washington Post, The New York Post, The Daily Mail, Every newspaper had to be kind of laid out in a fan.

那她是什么时候看这些报纸的？

And when would she actually read those?

哦，她会看的。

Oh, she would.

她会坐在那儿，一本一本地翻完。

She would sit there and go through all of them.

我不确定她是不是从头到尾都看，但肯定都会读头版和那些有意思的报道。

I don't know, you know, front to back, but she would definitely read the front pages, the interesting stories.

她确实很

She was definitely

是的

Yeah.

她一直关注时事。

You know, kept up on current affairs.

她来的时候，你会换鞋吗？

And when she was arriving, would you switch shoes?

你会换衣服吗？

Would you change?

那到底是怎么回事？

What was what was that?

我桌子底下一直放着人字拖。

I always had Birkenstocks under my desk.

她一来，我就换上高跟鞋。

I would put on heels when she arrived.

她确实撞见过我好几次。

She definitely caught me a few times.

她会从电梯口给我打电话，说：我忘拿了。

Like, she would call me from the elevator bank and be like, I forgot.

你能帮我送下来吗？

Can you bring it?

我那时候已经换好鞋了，还得跑出去给她送东西，可她连看都不看我一眼，光盯着我的脚。

And I'd already changed my shoes, and I would, like, run out with her whatever she forgot, and she would, like, not even look at me, and, like, be looking at my feet, you know?

所以我想，她其实知道我会这么做。

So she I think she knew that I I would do that.

这事儿确实是真的。

So that is true.

说实话，我不确定自己能不能一整天都穿着高跟鞋撑下来。

You can't you actually, I don't know if I would survive all day in heels.

太遭罪了。

It's so hard.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我没法穿，整天跑来跑去的。

So I couldn't, and there's a lot of running around.

对啊。

And Yeah.

你知道的，要是她不在，我就只想穿得舒服点。

You know, if she's not there, like, I just wanted to be comfortable.

没错。

Yeah.

所以我 definitely 有好几双 Birkenstocks，多得数不清。

So I I definitely oh, I have a million pairs of Birkenstocks.

每种颜色我都有一双。

I have every color.

哇哦。

Wow.

是啊。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

所以这一直是你衣橱里的常备单品。

So that's been a consistent wardrobe staple.

没错。

Yes.

我还拍过Birkenstock的广告。

I've even been in Birkenstock ads.

我跟Birkenstock的关系可不短了。

Moving forward, I I have a long relationship with Birkenstock.

我特别喜欢，对Birkenstock很有感情。

I love I'm very passionate about Birkenstock.

其实很多人都是这样。

I mean, many people are.

对。

Yeah.

我想知道，你有没有和安娜一起去过巴黎？

I wanna know, did you ever go to Paris with Anna?

没有。

No.

安娜从不带助理出差。

Anna did not travel with her assistants.

那都是编的。

That is fiction.

Vogue以前——我不知道现在还有没有——在巴黎设了个办公室，那里有个女同事，安娜去巴黎时会帮她处理事务。

Vogue has or I don't know if they still do, had a friend Paris office, and there was a woman in the Paris office that would assist Anna when she was there.

她叫菲奥娜。

Her name was Fiona.

菲奥娜现在还在那儿？

Fiona's still there.

真的吗？

Oh, really?

是的。

So, yes.

Fiona 会在欧洲这边帮忙。

Fiona, would help on the on the Europe side.

书里和电影里一个关键情节是，安迪去了巴黎，而不是艾米莉，这被视为对艾米莉的重大背叛。

One of the big plot points in the book and the movie is that, Andy gets to go to Paris instead of Emily, and it's this great betrayal of Emily.

有没有过类似的情况？没有。

Was there ever a situation like that where No.

明白了。

Okay.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得书里的虚构部分在于，这个角色变成了超级巨星，但我根本没看到过这样的事。

I think the fiction part of the book is that this character turns into this superstar, and I I did not witness that.

至于艾米莉这个角色显得不讨人喜欢、脾气暴躁，可能是因为我当时确实不够友善，而且压力很大，因为我觉得自己还得替她做事。

And I think this idea that the Emily character is not very pleasant or nice or seems high strung is because I probably was not very nice, and I probably was high strung because I felt like I was having to do her job as well.

对我来说，这真的特别让人沮丧。

So for me, that was really frustrating.

我觉得她可能就坐在那儿写书，根本没把这份工作当回事，不像我，也不像上亿个女孩那样认真。

I think she was probably just sitting there writing a book and not necessarily taking the job as seriously as I did or, you know, a 100,000,000 girls would.

所以我觉得办公室里因此产生了些紧张，可能我会对她发火，或者她根本不想配合这套规则。

So I think that that probably created some tension in the office where maybe I would snap at her or, you know, she just didn't wanna play the game.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

你有没有给她定过一些规矩？吉尔有没有给你定过规矩？

Were there rules you passed down to her and rules that Jill passed down to you?

这些规矩里，有没有一些其实根本不是安娜定的？

And were some of those rules not actually from Anna?

说实话，我觉得这些规矩没一条是安娜定的。

I don't think any of the rules are actually from Anna, to be honest.

他们给我定了一些规矩，比如不准在办公桌前吃饭。

There were rules that were passed down to me that were, like, I couldn't eat at my desk.

去洗手间必须有助理在旁边陪着，一刻都不能离开。

You couldn't go to the bathroom unless one of the assistants had to be there at all times.

所以每次你想去，都得先问资深助理能不能去。

So if you have to ask the senior assistant, like, if you could Right.

去上个厕所都要请示。

Go use the restroom.

她的支票都是用打字机打出来的。

Her checks were all typed out on a typewriter.

那时候我们已经有传票了，但还是得手填。

Even at the time, we had these messenger slips.

现在肯定都是电子化了，可当时我们得用打字机一个个打出来。

I'm sure it's all digital now, but you'd have to fill them out.

要是我得给她家送东西或者去取件，也得用打字机打传票。

Like, if I needed something sent to her house or picked up, we had to type them on a typewriter.

哦，天哪。

Oh, wow.

你不能自己写。

You couldn't write it.

我们不能自己写。

We couldn't write it.

她办公室里出来的每一样东西都得看起来非常得体。

So and everything that came out of her office had to, like, be very presentable.

吉尔走了。

Jill leaves.

我坐到第一个位置上，心想：这简直是在浪费时间。

I go into the sec into the first seat, and I'm like, this is all a huge waste of time.

我干嘛坐这儿，对着打字机敲这些东西？

Like, why am I sitting here on a typewriter typing this thing?

我五分钟就能写完。

I can write it in five minutes.

所以我干脆直接开始写，安娜一直没吭声。

So I just started writing them, and Anna never said anything.

对啊。

Yeah.

她根本不在乎。

She didn't care.

我觉得她都没注意到。

I don't think she noticed.

是的。

Yeah.

你懂的吧。

You know?

然后就开始在桌上吃东西了。

And Start eating

在办公桌前吃。

at your desk.

是的，我吃了。

I yes.

我想我开始吃东西的时候，可能不是什么特别香的东西。

I think I started eating, maybe not something that was very Fragrant.

香的。

Fragrant.

但我吃的肯定比躲在电脑后面喝奶昔多得多。

But I definitely ate much more than drinking a smoothie behind my computer chills approach.

人家跟我说在桌上吃是允许的。

Was was what I was told was allowed.

你有没有过那种节食经历，饿得头晕时还得吃块奶酪？

You were never on a diet where when you felt faint, you'd eat a piece of cheese?

没有。

No.

我当实习生的时候，可能吃过。

I I probably did when I was the junior.

好吧。

Okay.

因为有人告诉我，不能在办公桌前吃东西，我得一整天坐在那儿。

Because I was told that I wasn't allowed to eat at my desk, and I had to sit there all day.

还不准离开座位。

I wasn't allowed to leave.

但当我接手这个新职位，书也慢慢成形的时候，我就开始吃了。

But when I moved into the role, when the book was kind of came into life, I ate.

这真有意思。

That's so funny.

我想知道，干洗和洗衣的情况，跟书里说的一样吗？

I wanna know, is the the dry cleaning and and laundry situation the same as the book?

不一样。

No.

那时候只有干洗。

It was just dry cleaning.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

她会把要干洗的衣服带过来，我们负责分类整理。

She would bring in her dry cleaning, and we would separate the dry cleaning.

高级定制的送去帕莱特夫人那里，普通衣物就送到别的地方。

You know, couture would go to Madame Paulette, the regular dry cleaning would go somewhere else.

当时那位高级助理还要管账目，这些事我们都得记清楚。

And the the senior assistant at the time would also do the expenses, so that was all something that we had to keep track of.

没错，确实如此。

And, yeah, that is true.

那《哈利·波特》的手稿呢？

What about the Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter manuscript?

我不太记得了。

I don't recall.

我得查一下《哈利·波特》出版的具体时间。

I would have to fact check that, the timing of when Harry Potter came out.

确实有很多类似的要求，想搞到一些当时买不到的东西。

I definitely there were definitely requests that were like that about getting things, you know, that weren't available.

我们之前聊过一点，关于Anna找你谈话的事。

So we already talked a little bit about when Anna called you in.

你拿到了校样。

You got the galley.

你读了。

You read it.

那本书在办公室里是怎么传开的？

What was the how did that percolate around the office?

当时大家是什么反应？

And what was the vibe?

我不记得有没有人私下议论这事。

I don't I don't remember if it was gossiped about.

我是那种会到处嚷嚷‘天哪，有新书要出版了’的人吗？我不确定。

Like, I don't know if I'm not the type of person that would, you know, run around and be like, my god.

有一本书马上要出版了。

There's a book coming out.

我大概只是自己默默看着，没跟别人说。

I think I kind of kept it to myself.

所以我不太清楚到底谁是最早知道这件事的人。

So I'm not really sure who was in the inner circles of knowing that that was happening.

你看了校样，心里就想：这明显写的就是我，毕竟我就是干这个的。

So you read the galley, and you thought, I obviously I see myself on this because this was my role.

对。

Yeah.

但你发现了哪些地方不对劲？哪些地方让你觉得不真实？

But what did you recognize, and what upset you as being not accurate?

我知道写的就是我。

I think I I mean, I knew it was me.

我和劳伦一起度过了这八个月。

I you know, Lauren and I had spent these eight months together.

这段关系真的很紧密。

It's it's a really intense relationship.

你们每天早上七点半开始工作，一直做到晚上七点半，日复一日，周末虽然不上班，但有时候也得加班。

You know, you're working together from 07:30 in the morning till 07:30 at night, and, you know, day in, day out, weekends, obviously, you're not working on the weekends, but it's possible that you would have to.

所以我觉得这段关系特别紧密，日常生活中彼此都得靠对方。

So I think that relationship is really intense, and you rely on each other, you know, in day to day life.

那我会把她当成朋友吗？

So would I have considered her a friend?

不会。

No.

我们其实很少一起出去社交，但我觉得这也是别人教我的。

Like, I don't we didn't necessarily socialize, but I think that that was also something that was taught to me.

安娜平时也没怎么和我们来往。

Like, Anna didn't really socialize with us.

她从不会问我们，你周末过得怎么样？

She wasn't like asking us, like, how was your weekend?

所以在办公室里，我从来不会主动和她聊这些事。

So I think in the office, that wasn't really a ritual for me to, like, talk to her.

但我见过她男朋友，也知道她的一些私事，我们之间确实有某种联系。

But I did meet her boyfriend, and I did know personal things about her, and we definitely had a relationship.

当然，我也会对她感到烦躁，我想这大概就是她觉得我刻薄的原因。

Obviously, I got frustrated with her, so I think that that's where the that mean part in her perspective probably came from.

但当时，对我来说，这真的像是一种背叛。

But I it definitely to me at the time felt like a betrayal.

我当时心想，天哪。

I was like, oh my god.

我花了那么多时间和这个人在一起。

I spent so much time with this person.

是的。

Yeah.

她都没提前跟你说一声？

And she didn't give you a heads up?

没有。

No.

你后来再也没碰见她，却遇见了她男朋友，那感觉是怎样的？

What was it like you never ran into her after, but you did run into her boyfriend.

是的。

Yeah.

那次见面是啥情况？

What was that interaction like?

天哪。

My god.

他问我：你还好吗？

He was like, are you okay?

好像在问：你气成这样？

Like, are you so pissed?

我也慢慢接受了，毕竟书也没那么糟。

And I was like I came to terms with it too because the book didn't wasn't as bad.

我当时就当个笑话一笑而过，但心里确实挺难受的。

So I was kind of just laughed it off, but it definitely stung.

当然了。

Of course.

是的。

Yeah.

几年后，电影上映了。

A few years later, the movie comes out.

对。

Yeah.

那时候你是什么感觉？

What how are you feeling about it then?

我简直不敢相信，这么一个本该长存的生命体，居然就这样被拍成了电影，我记得当时心里就想着，天哪。

I just can't believe it took, like, this life form that was gonna, like, live on, and I just remember thinking, like, oh my god.

我真不敢相信，现在还得面对一部电影。

I cannot believe Now, I have to deal with like a movie.

你知道，一旦那本

You know, once the

书出版后，大家知道你是艾米莉吗？你有没有不想让人知道，就是不想让‘艾米莉’成为你一辈子的标签？

book Did people know you were Emily, and did you sort of not wanna share that with people so that that wasn't your you you were Emily for the rest of your life?

其实我当时根本没想到会变成这样。

Well, I didn't realize it was like that was gonna happen.

认识我的人，当然都知道是我。

I think people that knew me at the time Yeah.

那些在公关行业工作的人，还有在品牌公司上班的，都知道作者就是我。

You know, that were in, like, you know, even PR or Yeah.

他们都知道那本书是我写的。

Working at brands, like, they all knew that it was me.

没错。

Right.

但那部电影是虚构的。

But it was fictionalized.

对。

Right.

所以我能从心理上把自己和那些让我觉得被丑化的部分隔离开来，虽然我确实去看了电影，也挺享受的。

So I was able mentally to, like, separate myself from where I didn't feel like it was this, like, horrible portrayal of me per but it definitely like, I went to see the movie, and I enjoyed the movie.

对。

Right.

所以我能把自己抽离出来，好好享受这部电影。

So I was able to, like, separate myself enough to, like, enjoy it.

你觉得这部电影和书有什么不同？

Why do you think the movie was different than the book?

因为我觉得电影加了一些幻想元素。对我来说，那都是我真实的生活，我那时正经历着，压力大、累、犯错、需要赚钱，诸如此类的事。

Because I think there's this fantasy element added to it where, to me, was this was my real life, and I was, like, living it, and I was stressed, or I was, you know, tired, or I was I made a mistake, or, you know, I value I was you know, I needed a paycheck, you know, whatever it was.

对我来说，那是真实的，但电影里更像是人们对时尚行业的一种幻想。

To me, it was real, but in the movie, it just it felt more of a fantasy of what, like, this perception of the fashion industry is.

所以这让我能好好享受它。

So that allowed me to enjoy it.

我很难解释清楚或者区分开。

It's hard it's hard for me to kind of explain or distinguish.

我不知道。

I don't know.

对我来说，这部电影有一种快乐的感觉。

To me, the the movie is it's there's a joy to it.

这还挺乐观的。

It's optimistic.

对任何刚开始职业生涯的人来说，都挺有共鸣的。

It feels relatable to anyone who's starting out in their career.

而书里则非常具体地聚焦于某一段经历。

Whereas the book felt very specifically about one experience.

对。

Yeah.

是的

Yeah.

我同意

I agree.

我觉得剪辑师做得特别棒，把好莱坞、大众文化这些元素加了进去，吸引大家去看这部电影。

I think the editors did a fantastic job at add in adding this element of Hollywood and, you know, mass and all of those things to get people to go and see it.

对

Yeah.

因为那时候，很多人对时尚其实挺不屑的，觉得这玩意儿不接地气，也不被普遍接受。

Because because at the time, I think people also would turn their noses to fashion or, you know, it wasn't this, like, thing that accepted everybody.

那时候还不算包容。

It wasn't inclusive.

所以我觉得这部电影让它变得更包容了，还带点浪漫色彩，这些都让它成了真正的娱乐作品。

So I think the movie made it a little bit more inclusive and romanticized it and all of these things that made it entertainment.

但归根结底，它讲的还是我的生活。

But at the end of the day, it was still, like, my life.

所以确实是这样。

So it was Yeah.

很难看懂。

It was hard to decipher.

有没有过这样的真实时刻，比如劳伦向你解释过时尚产业的规模，或者你突然意识到这是一个多么庞大的生态系统？

Was there ever a real life version of the cerulean blue sweater moment where either Lauren was sort of explained the magnitude of the fashion industry, or you felt like you understood how big an ecosystem this was.

有。

Yeah.

我总是想提醒她

I I think I was always trying to remind her

是的。

Yeah.

这件事是需要认真对待的，我很当真，但她完全不以为然。

That this was something to take seriously or I took it seriously, and she really didn't.

这真的让我很沮丧。

So that really frustrated me.

我当时就觉得，这可是个庞大的国际生意。

I was like, this is a huge international business.

对很多人来说，这根本就是一种艺术。

This is like an art form to lots of people.

每天穿衣打扮，其实是人们表达自我的一种方式。

People get dressed every day as an expression of, like, who they are.

是的。

Yeah.

对我来说，这真的很重要，虽然我也清楚，我并不是在救死扶伤。

And to me, that was like I took that seriously even though, you know, obviously, I know I'm not curing anything.

这对我来说意义重大，而她却不当回事，这让我特别不舒服。

It was important to me, and not being important to her just really irked me.

我们找到了一篇旧的 Gawker 文章。

We found an old Gawker piece

好的。

Okay.

那篇文章引用了2006年7月《 Gawker》第六页的一篇文章，标题是《莱斯利·弗莱马尔萦绕在劳伦·韦斯伯格的美梦中》。

That referenced a July's two thousand six page six article that's the title was Leslie Fremar haunts Lauren Weisberger's dreams.

天哪。

Oh my god.

好的。

Okay.

文章还推测你就是真正的艾米丽。

And it speculates that you're the real Emily.

好的。

Okay.

评论区里有人翻出了你的 Friendster 账号，说你人挺不错的，还猜你是不是像艾米莉·布朗特那样的英国人。

And people in the comments said that they found your Friendster account, that you seem nice, and they wondered if you were British like Emily Blunt.

有

Did

你看过这些吗？

you ever see this?