劳·罗克如何打造赞达亚的红毯明星之路

这是彩排。

This is the run through.

我是克洛伊·马利，今天我们要重播一期我们最喜欢的节目，嘉宾是造型师劳·罗奇。

I'm Chloe Malle, and today, we are bringing back one of our favorite episodes with stylist Law Roach.

我觉得在红毯造型方面，没人能像劳和赞达亚那样如此出色。

I don't think anyone dominates red carpet method dressing quite like Law and Zendaya.

今年夏天，他们俩在《奥德赛》和《蜘蛛侠》的宣传活动上创造了许多令人难忘的精彩瞬间。

This summer, the two of them really worked some unforgettable magic for the odyssey and Spider Man press tours.

最近网上有句话我特别喜欢，就是赞达亚最惊艳的造型永远是她的下一个造型。

There's even a phrase on the Internet lately that I love, which is Zendaya's best look is always her next one.

而且我真的超爱她穿过的各种风格，从范思哲到Fresh Off the Runway，再到Schiaparelli高定和Mattiere Faical都有涉猎。

And I really love that she has been wearing everything from Versace to Fresh Off the Runway Schiaparelli Couture to Mattiere Faical.

所以特别期待看到Law和Zendaya在十二月的《沙丘3》里会带来什么样的造型。

So very excited to see what Law and Zendaya come up with for Dune part three in December.

在我们的对话中，Chioma和我问了Law他是如何在红毯上打造出这些令人惊叹的造型的，特别是那套来自上一部《沙丘》、与席琳·迪翁同台时穿的Mugler造型，还有他那段非凡的职业起步故事。

In our conversation, Chioma and I asked Law how he is able to achieve these incredible looks on the red carpet, specifically that insane Mugler look, you know the one from the last Dune, working with Celine Dion and his incredible career origin story.

那下面就是我们和Law的对话。

So here is our conversation with Law.

Law，能请到你来真是太荣幸了。

Well, Law, it is such a treat to have you on.

我们一直想请你来，聊了很久了，现在正是时候，因为那个大Vogue封面。

We've been talking about having you for ages, and this felt like the perfect moment because the big Vogue cover.

敲鼓啦。

Drum roll.

对。

Yeah.

两个Vogue封面呢。

Both two Vogue covers.

我是说，这真的很了不起，美国版Vogue和英国版Vogue。

I mean, which is a pretty amazing American Vogue and British Vogue.

Zendaya登上了封面，而你担任这两本杂志的时尚编辑，这太厉害了。

Zendaya is on the cover, and you are the fashion editor on both, which is incredible.

而且这两次拍摄风格很不一样。

And they're very different shoots.

对。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

我知道从一开始我们就讨论过，这两次拍摄要截然不同。

I know that was something that that we talked about from the beginning, them being very different.

对。

Yes.

跟我们聊聊这次拍摄的概念吧。

Tell us a little bit about the concept for the shoot.

你想先聊哪个？

Which one do you wanna start with?

我们可以先聊英国版《Vogue》。

We can start with British Vogue.

不，我们还是从英国版《Vogue》开始吧。

No, let's let's let's start with British Vogue.

所以，这两个拍摄是我们同时策划出来的一个故事。

So, it's a story that we planned out both shoots at the same time.

我觉得和Chioma合作，和Anna以及她的办公室合作，还有Chioma和英国版《Vogue》团队的合作，都是非常有意为之的，就是要让这两组拍摄风格截然不同。

And I think working with Chioma and working with Anna and her office and Chioma with the British Vogue team, it was very intentional that the shoots would be on the opposite end of the spectrum.

我觉得重要的是，Chioma决定和更年轻的品牌合作，还有英国本土品牌，这对我来说总是很有帮助，也让我很兴奋。

And I think what was important is that Chioma decided to work with younger brands and and British, you know, British brands, which is always so helpful to me and also exciting to me.

而美国版《Vogue》呢，是在巴黎拍的高级定制，由Annie Leibowitz掌镜，这对我来说，就像是一个来自芝加哥南区的同性恋小男孩的幻想和梦想成真。

And then the American Vogue was, you know, Eau Couture in Paris, shot by Annie Leibowitz, which is my little gay boy from South Side Of Chicago, Fantasy and Dream.

两个封面，因为我们之前见过英美两版共享封面人物，但通常都是一次大的拍摄。

Two covers because we saw, you know, British and American share cover stars before, but usually it's one big shoot.

而这次能有两个不同的形象，真的太不可思议了，我感到非常感激。

And for this to to to have two identities was really incredible, and I feel so grateful.

我得说，看着你和Zendaya合作，是我在片场最特别的时刻之一，看到你们之间的互动，你们怎么协作，怎么沟通。

And I have to say, watching you work with Zendaya was one of the most special moments for me being on set and seeing the dynamic between the two of you, how you collaborate, how you communicate.

你们之间真的是那种默契的关系，因为你们似乎不用说话就能理解彼此。

It's really this symbiotic relationship that you have because you understand each other seemingly without even having to speak.

这可是十三年的磨合啊。

Well, that's thirteen years in the making.

我们从2011年就开始合作了。

We started together in 2011.

哇。

Wow.

她那时候多大？

How old was she?

她当时13岁，快14岁了。

She was 13 turning 14.

天哪。

Oh, my God.

所以她还是个小姑娘。

So she was a baby.

我当时15岁，马上要满16岁了。

And I was 15 turning 16.

所以，你知道的，那并不准确。

So, you know, it's that's not true.

不过，对。

But but, yeah.

所以我们是一起长大的，我们的关系挺有意思的。

So we've we've grown up together and we've our relationship is very interesting.

这种互动模式真的挺有意思的。

It's a really interesting dynamic.

我们互相称呼对方，你知道吧，一个是大点子，一个是小细节。

And we call each other, you know, big idea, small detail.

我是那个大点子，她是小细节。

And I'm the big idea and she's the small detail.

所以我总有一些宏大的梦想，想象着一切本该有的样子，还有我在梦里和想象中看到的世界。

So I have these big dreams and these grand dreams of like everything how it should be and the way I see it in my dreams and the way I see it in my imagination.

她会把我的大梦想落到实处，让它们变得真实，并且不仅贴合我想讲的故事，还会把它变成一个我们俩共同讲述的完整故事。

And she takes my big dreams and she grounds them and she makes them real and she makes them also fit to not only the story that I'm trying to tell, but she makes it in a way where it becomes this comprehensive story that we're both trying to tell.

从最开始，我们就是这样的搭档，这样的关系。

And we've had that job and that relationship since the beginning.

我总是说，哦，你应该有一头垂到走廊尽头的头发。

It was always I'm always like, oh, you should have, you know, hair that cascades down the hallway.

她就会说，不，姐妹。

And she like, no, girl.

不行。

No.

所以这就是完美的平衡。

You know, so it's the perfect balance.

完美的阴阳调和。

It's the perfect yin and yang.

我确实觉得你和赞达亚都非常用心，而且很享受围绕她的造型来构思叙事，无论是拍写真还是走红毯。

I do feel like you and Zendaya are so thoughtful and have such a good time crafting a narrative around her looks, whether it's in a photoshoot or on the red carpet.

我很喜欢《纽约时报》那篇报道，说赞达亚在电影宣传时把“方法穿搭”玩得特别溜。

And I love the New York Times did a piece that Zendaya sort of killed it at method dressing, basically, for her films.

你是怎么判断什么算过头了？

How do you decide is something too much?

什么算不够？

Is it too little?

什么算刚刚好？

Is it just enough?

我很喜欢那个视频，就是Vogue网站上的那个准备视频。

I loved in the video, the getting ready video for vogue.com.

你说过，在《挑战者》宣传期的第一套造型，你打算直接给他一拳。

You've said that for the first look for the Challengers press tour, you are gonna just punch him in the face.

就是那条Louave裙子，对。

Like, this Louave dress Yeah.

实际上是把网球运动员印在裙子上了。

Was gonna have the the the tennis player is actually on the dress.

首先，裙子上的图案，如果我没记错的话，其实是她的一个影子截图。

First of all, the print that was on the dress is actually, if I'm not mistaken, a grab from a shadow of actually her.

所以，裙子上的其实是她的角色。

So it's it's her character that's that was on the dress.

而且，我觉得Jonathan Anderson，他正好处在天才和疯狂的边缘，我们很喜欢这样，因为他是这部电影的服装设计师。

And we know Jonathan Anderson, for me, sits on that that borderline of genius and insanity, which we love, because he's the costume designer for the film.

所以，由他来设计一些宣传期的造型，非常合适，也很贴切。

So it was, you know, very right and fitting that he would do some of the dressing, you know, create some of the looks for the tour.

我们讨论过，也决定不要害怕太直白。

And we talked about it and we talked about having no fear of being literal.

有时候，人们会担心说，哦，这会不会太像戏服了。

In some cases, people will have that conversation like, oh, it may be too costumey.

但我们把做的每一件事都当作娱乐。

And we look at everything we do as entertainment.

一开始只是我们互相逗乐，后来就变成了我们娱乐全世界，我们对此很开心，而且，你知道，有些人会喜欢某些东西，有些人会讨厌，但至少我们引发了讨论，而且想到也许在某人超级忙碌的工作日里，他们能花几分钟来批评或赞美我们一起做的东西，这让我们非常开心。

It started out with us just entertaining each other, and then it grew into this thing of us entertaining the world, and we're happy with that, and, you know, some people are gonna love some things and others are gonna hate it, but at least we're starting conversations, And it just brings us so much joy to know that maybe in the middle of somebody's incredibly busy workday, they have a few minutes to kind of criticize or compliment things that we've done together.

所以，我们一直在做这种“方法穿搭”，虽然这个名字是最近才有的。

So, we've been doing the method dressing, although it just got a name very recently.

但实际上，她拍的所有电影我们都在这么做。

But we've been doing that for actually all the movies that she's done.

我其实很喜欢你们俩一起走红毯，你也成为故事的一部分。

I love it actually when when you both take to the red carpet and you're part of the narrative.

我记得2019年Met Gala红毯上，你是仙女教母，而赞达亚是灰姑娘。

And I remember when you were on the red carpet at the Met in 2019, and you were the fairy godmother, and obviously, Zendaya was Cinderella.

跟我们说说那个造型是怎么来的，灵感从哪来的？

Like, tell us a little bit about how that look came together and where that idea came from.

我真的很感谢她，因为她鼓励我完全做自己，而且总是把我拉进故事里，对吧？

I I give her so much credit because she encourages me to be a 100% myself and also has always pulled me into the narrative, right?

她一直希望我有自己的个性和位置。

And always wanted me to have a personality and a place.

她一直有这样的想法：随着她越来越红，我也会跟着她一起成长。

And she's always had this mindset that as she got big, I would get big with her.

因为你知道，很多批评我的人会说，哦，他觉得自己是天才，哦，他觉得自己是明星。

Because, you know, a lot of my critics are like, Oh, he thinks he's the talent, and, Oh, he thinks he's a star.

每次你看到我和她一起走红毯或者和她合影，都是因为她邀请我进入那个空间。

And every time that you see me on a carpet with her or taking a picture with her, it's that because she's invited me into that space.

关于Met Gala有趣的一点是，那年的主题，当然我们都知道，是坎普风。

The interesting part about Met, so it was the theme that year, of course, we all know is was camp.

我想出了这个叙事，关于她扮演灰姑娘的故事，因为她正处于从迪士尼明星转型的节点，她即将出演《亢奋》，这是世界从未见过的她，这也是我们某种程度上对迪士尼公主身份的最后一搏，因为我觉得在那个时候，至少在人们眼中，她是当红的迪士尼公主，也是那一整代迪士尼女孩中的最后一位。

And I came up with this narrative about and the story about her being Cinderella because she was right in the point of transitioning from Disney star and she was going into Euphoria, which was a way that the world had never seen her and, it was our way of kind of our last hurrah in a way to being a Disney princess because I think at that point she was like, in people's eyes at least, was the reigning Disney princess and kind of the last of that whole class of the Disney girls.

这是一种展示，同时也是告别。

And it was a way of showing that, but also saying goodbye to it.

因为她即将进入扮演茹这个角色的新时代，这是她在《亢奋》中的角色，也是人们从未见过的赞达亚。

And because she was going into this new era of playing Rue, her character on Euphoria, and in a way that no one had ever seen Zendaya.

而我是她的仙女教兄。

And I was her fairy god brother.

我们当然和汤米·希尔费格合作，而且我们刚刚结束那次合作。

And we we, you know, of course, we were with Tommy Hilfiger, and we were just coming off of that collaboration.

彩排马上就会回来。

The run through will be back in just a moment.

我是文森特·坎宁安。

I'm Vincent Cunningham.

我是诺米·弗莱。

I'm Nomi Fry.

我是亚历克斯·施瓦茨，

I'm Alex Schwartz,

我们是《纽约客》的《大评论家》节目的主持人。

and we host Critics at Large from The New Yorker.

每周，我们都会选一个起点。

Each week, we pick a starting point.

那本让你念念不忘的新小说，这周末大家都在看的电影，然后我们会展开聊聊。

The new novel you can't stop thinking about, the movie everybody's seeing this weekend, and we kinda go galaxy brand with it.

对。

Right.

我们会把这些作品的核心思想，放到历史和不同媒介中去追溯，目的就是要弄清楚，为什么这一部作品在当下的政治、文化，乃至你的日常生活中如此重要。

We take the ideas at the center of these things and trace them across history, across mediums, all to get to the bottom of why this particular text is important right now in politics and culture and also in your everyday life.

我们聊高雅的。

We go high brow.

也聊通俗的。

We go low brow.

中间地带全都覆盖。

We go everything in between.

从饮食文化到网络梗文化。

Food culture to meme culture.

从查理·XCX到托妮·莫里森。

Charlie x c x to Toni Morrison.

从K-pop到肯尼迪家族。

K pop to the Kennedys.

从恐怖片到激烈的竞争。

From horror movies to heated rivalry.

从奥斯卡到Met Gala。

From the Oscars to the Met Gala.

从《黄金单身汉》到《呼啸山庄》，从《远大前程》到《绝望主妇》。

The Golden Bachelor to Wuthering Heights, Great Expectations to Desperate Housewives.

这就是我们在这里聊的内容。

That's what we're talking about over here.

我们玩得很开心。

We're having fun.

这里是《纽约客》的Critics at Large。

It's critics at large from the New Yorker.

每周四，无论你在哪里收听播客。

Every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.

我想知道，Law，你和Zendaya是怎么合作，把一套造型完整呈现出来的？

I wanna know, Law, how you and Zendaya work together to get an outfit across one.

比如说，就拿那套惊艳的复古Mugler造型来说，那种……

Like, let's take, for example, the insane vintage Mugler look, the sort of

我一直在等这个。

I was waiting on that.

她穿的那件。

That she wore.

那件衣服得

That had to

出来。

come.

对。

Yeah.

劳，你从头到尾给我们讲讲，从A到Z。

Walk us through like A to Z, Law to Z.

那场秀和很多那些造型都出自大师特里·穆格勒之手，我觉得这些都深深印在脑海里。

That show and a lot of those looks from the master Terry Mugler, I think are all ingrained.

如果你在时尚圈，那些造型已经刻在你的脑子里了。

If you're in fashion, those, that look is ingrained in your brain.

第一次六月宣传巡演结束后，我和她聊天，当时已经确定他们还要再办一次，我们俩都——她发给我，我手机里早就存了，在收藏夹里，然后她说，下次宣传我们试试这个吧。

And, after the first June press tour, she and I were just talking and when there was like firm confirmation that they were going to do another one, we both kind of, she sent it to me, I already had it, you know, in my phone, in my favorites, and she was like, we should try this for the next press run.

我说，我们经常这样，她发我东西，或者我发她东西，其实都已经存过了。然后我们就开始聊这个，接着，当Mr.

I was like, that happens to us a lot, like she'll send me something or I'll send her something, we already have it saved, and so we started talking about it, and then when Mr.

Mugue去世的时候，我觉得这永远不可能了。

Mugue passed away, you know, I thought it could never happen.

永远不可能了，因为我知道他还在负责谁能穿那些档案服装。

It would never happen because I know that he still was in charge of who got to, you know, wear the archives.

然后我开始后悔，我们从来没有和他有过交集，也没有机会和他见面，问他，这可能吗？

Then I started regretting that we never had a moment with him and we wouldn't have the opportunity to, know, have that meeting to ask him, you know, could it be possible?

所以我鼓起勇气，联系了Casey。

And so I kind of conjured up enough bravery to reach out to to Casey.

Casey Conwella，Moogler Now和Moogler团队的创意总监，我说，嘿，我有个疯狂的想法，但我想当面问你。

Casey Conwella, the creative director of Moogler Now and the Moogler team and was like, Hey, I got a crazy idea, but I just, I wanna ask you in person.

我们安排了见面，我带她去了，我们走进工作室，他的展厅，我们坐下来，面对面坐着。

And we had, we set up a meeting and I took her and, we walked in into the atelier, his showroom and we were like, we all sat down, we sat across from each other.

那场面太戏剧化了。

It was so dramatic.

真的特别戏剧化。

It was like so dramatic.

然后我就说，我们有个想法。

And I was like, well, we have an idea.

大家都知道我的性格。

Anybody knows my personality.

我有点，你知道的，我有点疯。

I'm a little, you know, I'm a little mad.

我就说，我们有个超棒的想法。

I was like, we have this amazing idea.

我们这边就看着他们那边。

We were like, our, our side was looking at their side.

然后他就说，好啊。

And he was like, yes.

然后我就说，所以我们很想穿一件她档案里的衣服，去参加她的首映礼。

And I was like, so we would love to wear something, from the archive for one of her premieres.

然后他就说，好啊，快跟我详细说说。

And he was like, yes, and tell me more.

所以我估计我当时就掏出手机，然后我们互相看了看，把照片亮出来，我就说，我们想穿这个。

So I think I whipped out my phone and like, we all we looked at each other, put the part out, I like, we wanna wear this.

你能不能给那个可能没看过、不知道我们在说什么的听众描述一下那套衣服？

Can you describe the outfit for maybe the one person listening who hasn't seen it and doesn't know what we're talking about?

我们亲切地叫它“机器人”。

With affection, we'll just call it the robot.

你看到她穿着它去了伦敦的《毁灭》首映礼。

And you saw her wear it to the Doom premiere in London.

伦敦的全球首映礼。

The world premiere in London.

有意思的是，因为我们刚说完，凯西就给了我们肯定的答复，说，好的，这事也许能成，但我们现在就得量尺寸。

And the interesting part about it is because right after we got to and said, Casey, you know, was giving us the seal of approval like, yes, we may can make this happen, but we need to take measurements now.

所以，比如说，如果从手肘到手腕或者从膝盖到脚踝的尺寸不对，她就穿不了。

So, because if say for instance, the measurement from elbow to wrist was off or knee to ankle was off, she wouldn't be able to to wear it.

因为那整套是金属盔甲。

Because it was an entire, like, was a metal suit of armor

量身定做的。

made It to

就像拼图一样，穿的时候要一块块拼起来。

was a puzzle, but you put it on like a puzzle.

全都是独立的部件。

It was all individual pieces.

哇。

Wow.

骨盆、大腿、小腿、鞋子、手臂，还有手，全都是分开的。

The pelvis, the thighs, the shin, the shoe, the arm, everything, the hand.

所以真的就像拼图一样。

So it was all like a puzzle, honestly.

所以我们量好了尺寸，然后大家都特别紧张，等着他们核对数据。最后他们说没问题，尺寸是合适的。

And so we took the measurements and so we all just, we sat on pins and needles for them to compare the measurements and they said, okay, it looks like the measurements will work.

接着我们安排了试穿环节，大家又都屏住呼吸，就想知道到底合不合身。

So then we scheduled a fitting and again, we're all like holding our breath, you know, to see if it was looking.

我记得第一次试穿的时候，他们把鞋子拿出来放上去，我一看那双鞋，就说：哦，这正好是她穿的尺码。

Remember the first thing is when they took the shoe out and they put the shoe, they put the shoe, I looked at the shoe, said, oh, that's her size.

凯西当时还开玩笑说，嘿，你光看鞋就能知道怎么给脚穿鞋啊？我说那当然，我随便看一眼就能判断出适合别人的鞋码，还能告诉你该选多大。

And Casey, he's like, oh, you could just look at the I said, yeah, I can look at a shoe anywhere, tell you how to get a shoe on someone's foot and And tell you what size they

我当时就想，你就是那个仙女教父兄弟。

I was like You are the fairy god brother.

没错。

I am.

对。

Yes.

我刚才说的那双鞋，就是那双合脚的鞋。

The shoe I said the shoe the shoe fit.

她穿上鞋，鞋子刚好合脚，那真是一个灰姑娘时刻。

So she put the shoe on and the shoe fit and it was such like a Cinderella moment.

哇。

Wow.

然后，天哪。

And then Oh my god.

他们先装上小腿，小腿合适，再装上大腿，大腿也合适，然后她踏进骨盆区域，他们把它装上去，也合适，之后就一直这样，不停地装上各个部件，一个接一个。

They put the the the shin the shin, then the shin fit and they put the thigh, the thigh fit and then they she stepped into the pelvis, the pelvic area, and they put that up and that fit and then after that, it just kept Oh my just kept popping pieces on, popping pieces on.

哇。

Wow.

所以他们不用重做任何部分？

So they didn't have to remake any of it?

不用。

No.

不用。

No.

没有。

No.

没有。

No.

没有。

No.

全都正好合适。

It all just fit.

当时真的都哭了。

And it was was literally in tears.

那她能动吗？

And could she move?

能。

Yes.

能。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

如果你去看视频，随便哪个视频，她那个东西其实活动性很强。

If you would go and watch the video, any video, she the the the thing was actually very mobile.

而且那个和Mugue先生一起做这个东西的人也在场。

And the guy who actually made it with mister Mugue was there.

他在试装的时候也在。

He was at the fitting.

他来伦敦是为了理发，帮我们穿好衣服，然后

He came to London to get a haircut, get us dressed, to

帮她

get her

穿脱那套服装。

in and out of the costume.

但是，Law，我想知道，因为你特别擅长从档案里翻出那些惊艳的复古造型。

But, Law, I wanna know because you are so good at pulling incredible vintage looks from the archive.

你肯定对这些衣服过目不忘吧。

You must have a photographic memory for a lot of these pieces.

但如果不是灰姑娘那种完美合身的情况，衣服不合适怎么办？

But what happens when it's not a Cinderella moment and it doesn't fit?

你能改这些衣服吗？

Can you alter the pieces?

还是重新做？

Do they get remade?

还是就随便凑合一下？

Do you just sort of wing it?

感觉这挺棘手的。

Like, it just seems very tricky.

各种情况都有。

It's all of those things.

对吧？

Right?

先给你讲个背景故事吧，我刚跟赞达亚合作的时候——这个故事我讲过无数次了——我在芝加哥开了一家古着店。

So just to give you a backstory, when I started working with Zendaya, and this is a story I've told a million times, I had a vintage store in Chicago.

所以在我成为造型师之前，我的背景就是卖古着的。

So my background before becoming a stylist, I sold vintage.

所以我一直对过去的东西有很深的喜爱和感情，对吧？

So I've always had a love and an affinity for things from the past, right?

这是从你祖母那里继承来的，对吧？

Which you inherited from your grandmother, right?

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我祖母以前经常带我去逛二手店，我一直觉得那就像一场寻宝大冒险，因为你永远不知道会在二手店里淘到什么好东西。

My grandmother used to take me thrifting all the time and and I just always looked at it as like a big treasure hunt because you kinda never knew what you were gonna walk after thrift so well.

而且到现在，你和我依然能感受到那种快乐，当我能够去淘复古货或者去逛旧货市场的时候。

And still and you and I still have that joy when I'm able to search for vintage or or go thrifting or whatever.

我读到过，她把这叫做“淘破烂”？

And I read that she called it junking?

是的，她确实这么叫。

Yeah, she did.

她确实这么叫。

She did.

对。

Yes.

我的祖母埃洛伊丝，这真的很可爱。

My grandma Eloise That's so charming.

淘破烂。

Junking.

对。

Yeah.

哎呀。

Aw.

因为你知道，一个人的垃圾是另一个人的宝贝。

Because it was, you know, somebody's junk is another person's trash.

我知道他们说的是垃圾，但旧货也一样。

I know they say trash, but junk as well.

一开始我不得不和她一起用复古的东西，因为没人愿意借我们衣服。

I had to use Vintage starting out with her because nobody would loan us clothes.

真的，没人愿意借我们衣服。

Like, no one would loan us clothes.

其实是出于无奈，我才让她也开始爱上复古的东西。

It was out of necessity I actually got her to start falling in love with Vintage as well.

所以，你知道，这种爱好一直没离开过我。

So, you know, that never left me.

我觉得这已经刻在我的骨子里了，现在也刻在她的骨子里了。

I think that's engraved in my DNA and and now her.

所以在她整个职业生涯中，我们一直都是这么做的。

And so we've always done that throughout throughout her career.

她一直穿复古的衣服。

We she's always worn vintage.

现在她也成了一个收藏家。

And and now she's a collector as well.

劳，你小时候最大的时尚灵感来源是谁？

Law, who were your biggest fashion inspirations growing up?

你是怎么开始进入时尚圈的？

And how did you get your start in fashion?

我在芝加哥有一家复古店，是我和我最好的一个朋友一起开的。

I had the the vintage store, and it was me and one of my best friends in Chicago.

你知道，我知道造型师是什么，但我对造型的了解仅限于音乐领域。

And, you know, I knew what a stylist was, but I also only knew styling through the lens of music.

我当然知道琼·安布罗斯和妮莎·希尔顿，因为从文化角度来说，她们对我们非常重要。

So I knew about, you know, of course, June Ambrose and Nisa Hilton because culturally, they were so important to us.

然后有一天，坎耶来到店里，我看着他翻遍了我们的每一件东西。

And then one day, Kanye came into the store and I watched him, like, go through every single piece of things that we had.

他把衣服翻过来看，他看衣服的方式让我觉得太神奇了。

He went and he turned it inside out and the way he looked at clothes was amazing to me.

不知怎么的，TMZ 发现他来过店里，所以我们开始受到很多关注。

And some way TMZ found out that he had came to the store, so we started to get all this attention.

然后我开始接到来自世界各地造型师的电话和邮件。

And I just started to get calls and emails from stylists all around the world.

就在那一刻，我脑子里突然灵光一现。

Was and then at that moment, something went off in my head.

我当时就想，等等等等，这原来是真的。

I was just like, wait, wait, wait, this is a real thing.

然后我就开始自称造型师了。

And I just started calling myself a stylist.

然后我开始骗别人，说我在纽约住。

And then I started lying to people and telling them that I lived in New York.

我弄了个纽约的电话号码，然后就开始给自己包装，撒了一堆谎，还用信用卡买了好多衣服然后又退掉。

I got a New York phone number and I just kind of set myself up and told a lot of lies and used my credit card to buy a lot of looks and return them.

对不起啊，巴尼斯。

I'm sorry, Barneys.

好吧，巴尼斯，我现在不用跟巴尼斯道歉了，我要跟萨克斯、尼曼和伯格多夫道歉，因为我退了好多货，对，我就是这么一路拼过来的，直到我成功了。

Well, Barneys, I don't have to apologize to Barneys anymore, I'm sorry to Saks and Nnemus and Bergdorf because I did a lot of returns and, yeah, and I just, you know, hustled until I made it.

我是文森特·坎宁安。

I'm Vincent Cunningham.

我是诺米·弗莱。

I'm Nomi Fry.

我是亚历克斯·施瓦茨，还有

I'm Alex Schwartz, and

我们是《纽约客》的《大评论家》主持人。

we host Critics at Large from The New Yorker.

每周我们都会选一个起点。

Each week, we pick a starting point.

那本让你念念不忘的新小说，这周末大家都在看的电影，然后我们会顺着这个话题展开聊聊。

The new novel you can't stop thinking about, the movie everybody's seeing this weekend, and we kinda go galaxy brand with it.

对。

Right.

我们会抓住这些作品的核心思想，追溯它们在历史和不同媒介中的演变，最终弄清楚为什么这个作品在当下的政治、文化以及你的日常生活中如此重要。

We take the ideas at the center of these things and trace them across history, across mediums, all to get to the bottom of why this particular text is important right now in politics and culture and also in your everyday life.

我们聊高雅的。

We go high brow.

也聊通俗的。

We go low brow.

中间的一切也都聊。

We go everything in between.

从饮食文化到网络梗，从查理·XCX到托妮·莫里森。

Food culture to meme culture, Charlie x c x to Toni Morrison.

从K-pop到肯尼迪家族。

K pop to the Kennedys.

从恐怖电影到激烈的竞争。

From horror movies to heated rivalry.

从奥斯卡到Met Gala。

From the Oscars to the Met Gala.

《呼啸山庄》的金牌单身汉，从《远大前程》到《绝望主妇》。

The golden bachelor of Wuthering Heights, great expectations to desperate housewives.

这就是我们在这里讨论的内容。

That's what we're talking about over here.

我们玩得很开心。

We're having fun.

这是《纽约客》的《Critics at Large》节目。

It's critics at large from the New Yorker.

每周四，无论你在哪里收听播客。

Every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.

Law，我得问问你关于Celine的事。是的。

Law, I have to ask you about Celine Yes.

因为我太爱她了。

Because I love her so much.

你和她合作了很长时间，而且我觉得席琳的复兴很大程度上是你和她一起做的。

You were working with her for quite a while, and you really I feel like the renaissance of Celine was a lot of what you were doing with her.

然后你算是为了她复出了一天。

And then you sort of came out of retirement for a day.

你说你为了给她造型参加格莱美，特意复出了一天，那真是个史诗级的时刻。

You said you unretired for a day to style her for the Grammys, which is such an epic moment.

那段经历感觉怎么样？

What's that experience been like?

你知道吗？

You know what?

那大概是2016年的事，我现在还有点不敢相信。

It happened, I think, 2016, and I'm still kind of shocked that it happened.

我当时接到我前经纪人的电话，她跟我说，席琳想跟你聊聊。

I just got a call from my then manager and and she called me and she said, Celine wants to speak to you.

我当时就想，谁是席琳？

And I'm like, who is Celine?

我就想，谁？

I'm like, who?

因为我当时还没敢做那么大的梦，对吧？

Because I hadn't dreamt that big yet, right?

然后她说，席琳·迪翁。

And so she was like, Celine Dion.

我当时就懵了，什么？

I was like, what?

她说，席琳·迪翁想跟你通话。

And she was like, Celine Dion wants to talk to you.

所以我们通了电话，她邀请我去拉斯维加斯。

So we had a phone conversation and she invited me to Vegas.

我去看了她的演出，还在公告牌颁奖礼后见到了她。

I went to see the show, and I also met her after the Billboard Awards.

我们聊了聊时尚。

We talked about fashion.

我跟她说，其实我知道她穿的那些品牌，她穿过的每件衣服我都了如指掌。然后她就问我，你觉得怎么样？

I kinda told her, you know, that I knew the brands that she was wearing and I knew everything that she had, you know, wore and, you know, and she was like, What do you think about it?

我说，我觉得挺好的，但我觉得还有很多品牌你应该试试。

I was like, I think it's great, but I think there's a lot of brands that, you know, that you should wear.

然后就有了一个关于席琳·迪翁应该是什么样子的想法。

Then there was a idea of what Celine Dion should look like.

我的工作就是，虽然没人明说，但我想向世界展示她有多酷、多年轻。

And my job going in without anyone saying this, I wanted to show the world how cool she was and how young she was.

这让她开始穿Off-White，后来又穿上了那件著名的Vetements泰坦尼克号卫衣。

That led to her wearing off white, and then that led into her wearing the Vetmont, the notorious, Titanic sweatshirt.

哦，对，我超喜欢那件。

Oh, yeah, I love that one.

我觉得我做到了打破世人对她的固有印象，这真的改变了我的人生。

I think what happens is I was able to disrupt the idea of what the world thought she was, and it really changed my life.

所以当他们打电话给我，让我去做格莱美的时候，她的团队非常尊重人，他们说，嘿，你知道，我们有个问题。

So when they called me to do Grammys, and her team is so respectful, they was like, Hey, you know, we have a question.

我们知道你要退休了，我们尊重这一点，但是有没有可能你愿意为她在格莱美上造型呢？

We know you're retiring, respect for that, but is there any way that you can that you would do her for the Grammys?

我当时就说，当然可以。

And I was like, Absolutely.

我说，不管我在世界哪个角落，我都会为了席琳到场。

I was like, I don't care where I'm in the world, I will be there for Celine.

这将是多年来人们第一次在公开场合看到她，因为她病得很重。

It would be the first time that people would see her out in public in years because she had been so sick.

我说，是的，我愿意为她做任何事，只要告诉我时间和地点。

And I was like, Yeah, I'll do anything for her, and just let me know when and where.

你给她穿上了那件惊人的芥末黄色华伦天奴高级定制外套。

You dressed her in this amazing, like, mustard yellow Valentino couture coat.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

我觉得那真是太棒了，还有那条大项链。

That I thought was so fabulous and this major necklace.

那条项链是什么？

What was the necklace?

蒂芙尼的。

Tiffany's.

哇。

Ugh.

整体造型真的很惊艳。

It all it really just was an amazing look.

我在想，我们都在关注她，而且觉得她在格莱美上状态非常好。

And I wondered, like, we're all thinking about her, and we thought she was in such great shape at the Grammys.

你能跟我们分享一下席琳的最新情况吗？

Any Celine update you can share with us?

我可以透露一下，我给她拍了一组封面照，很快就会发布。

I can I can say, I I did a a cover shoot with her, that that will be out very soon?

看她回到自己熟悉的状态，在片场给大家带来欢乐，真的太令人惊叹了。

And she was it was just so incredible to watch her be back in her element and entertaining entertaining everybody on set.

她看起来状态特别好，自己也感觉很好、很有力量。

And she she looked really, really great, and she felt really great and strong.

我知道她正在筹划一些大事，虽然我不能透露，但我觉得所有爱她、崇拜她的人很快就会很高兴再次见到她。

And I know that she is planning some really big things that I cannot share, but I think everyone who loves her and adores her will be very happy very soon to see her again.

那真是太令人兴奋了。

Well, that's exciting.

对。

Yeah.

不，听到这个消息太好了。

No, that's so good to hear.

是的。

Yeah.

那你退休了吗？

So are you retired?

跟我们说说。

Tell us.

好吧。

Okay.

网上的人真是太刻薄了。

The internet is so mean.

大家都在传那些梗，说什么我只对不喜欢的人才退休，其实不是这样的。

So they people are it's like all these memes that are like, I'm only retired if I don't like you, which is not true.

所以对赞达亚来说，绝对没有，永远不会。

So for Zendaya, absolutely not, never.

她在我宣布退休的时候也明确表示了这一点，因为说实话，我当时说退休，是想彻底结束一切。

And she made that really clear when I announced it because to be quite honest, when I said that I was retired, I wanted to be done with everything.

她让我先喘口气，然后打电话给我说，哦，好吧，我知道你退休了，但我知道那不包括我。

And she let me breathe for a while and then she called me and she's like, oh, okay, I know you retired, but I know that doesn't mean me.

所以在我心里，我以为我会以造型师的身份退休。

So in my mind, I would think I would retire as a stylist.

而我想做的是，你知道，利用这个机会，而且我们将来可能还会这么做。

And what I wanted to do is kind of, you know, use the opportunity to, and we may still do this in the future.

我想更多地担任创意总监的角色，然后聘请造型师。

I wanted to kind of be more of a creative director and hire stylists.

我想给那些我认为有才华或值得更大平台的年轻造型师机会，让他们在某些场合为她做造型。

I want to give younger stylists that I think are talented or deserve a bigger platform the opportunities to dress her for certain things.

你指导过很多造型师。

You've mentored many stylists.

是的。

Yeah.

是的，我的孩子们。

Yeah, my babies.

我想利用那个平台，但我觉得她还没准备好。

And I wanted to to use that platform, but I don't think she was ready for that.