科比·布莱恩特关于曼巴精神与人生真谛的最后精彩访谈

我认为这就是伟大的本质或应有的样子。它不是随一个人生死而存亡的东西。而是你如何激励一个人，进而激励另一个人，再激励下一个。这样你就能创造出我认为永恒的东西。

I think that's what greatness is or should be. It's it's not something that lives and dies with one person. It's how can you inspire a person to then in turn inspire another person that then inspires another person. And that's how you create something that I think lasts forever.

欢迎来到伟大学院。我是刘易斯·豪斯，前职业运动员转型为生活方式企业家。每周我们都会为您带来一位鼓舞人心的人物或信息，帮助您发现如何释放内心的伟大。感谢您今天与我共度时光。现在，让我们开始上课吧。

Welcome to the school of greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

我非常期待您体验科比·布莱恩特的最后一次采访之一。对我来说，与他交流并聆听他关于爱、生活、篮球、人际关系的故事，以及留下遗产的意义和他对伟大的定义，非常鼓舞人心。此外，我还有五分钟从未公开的独家花絮，将在采访结束时与您分享，并分享我与科比见面的整个经历以及我学到的教训。我非常期待您观看这次采访并看到结尾的额外内容。这是我们最近发现的素材，现在与这次采访一起发布。

I'm so excited for you to experience one of Kobe Bryant's last interviews. For me, it was so inspiring to connect with him and hear about his stories about love, life, basketball, relationships, and what it means to leave a legacy and his definition of greatness. Also, have five minutes of exclusive bonus footage that has never been released that I'm going to share with you at the end of this interview and also share with you my whole experience of meeting Kobe and the lessons I learned. I'm so excited for you to watch this interview and to see the bonus content at the end. It's content that we found recently that we are now releasing with this interview.

再次提醒，请坚持看到最后。希望您享受这次科比·布莱恩特的伟大采访之一。欢迎大家来到伟大学院播客。我们请到了不可思议的传奇人物科比·布莱恩特，我的兄弟。很高兴见到你。

Again, stay tuned to the end. And I hope you enjoy one of the great interviews of Kobe Bryant. Welcome, everyone, to the School of Greatness podcast. We have the incredible legendary Kobe Bryant, my man. It's good to meet you.

幸会，兄弟。

Pleasure, man.

恭喜你的一切成就。你是一个偶像，一个传奇。我最欣赏你的是你真心关心他人。是的，你的心胸如此宽广，尽管你以那种近乎偏执的专注心态闻名。

Congrats on everything. You're an icon, a legend. And the thing I love the most about you is that you really care about other human beings. Yeah. Your heart is so big, even though you've been known for this focused mentality that is just almost psycho in some ways.

没错。但你深切关心他人，我想这也是这么多人爱你的原因。所以我想为你的善良和对人类的慷慨致敬。我的第一个问题是，我很好奇你成长过程中最重要的老师是谁，因为你的童年很有趣，曾在意大利待过一段时间，后来回到费城。

Yeah. But you care deeply about human beings, and I think that's why so many people love you as well. So I wanna acknowledge you for your kindness and your generosity towards humanity. My first question for you is I'm curious about who was your greatest teacher growing up because you had an interesting childhood being in Italy for a while, coming back to Philadelphia I think it was.

是啊。

Yeah.

在你早期成长过程中，谁是你最伟大的老师？说来有趣，其实有很多位。

Who was the greatest teacher for you in those early days? It was funny, had a lot of them.

我的父母都很了不起。从小他们就向我灌输了想象力的重要性、保持好奇心，以及明白这个道理——如果你想成就某事，我不会只是坐在这里说'是的，你可以为所欲为'。没错你是可以，但你也必须付出努力才能实现，对吧？他们在我很小的时候就教会了我这些。

My parents were were great. Growing up, they instilled in me the importance of imagination, of curiosity, and understanding that, okay, if you wanna accomplish something, I'm not just gonna sit here and say, yes, you can do whatever you want. Yes, you can, but you have to also put in the work to get there. Right? So they taught me that at really early age, man.

当你从小抱着'世界任你遨游，只要努力一切皆有可能'的信念长大时，这种根本信念就会伴随你一生。

And when you grow up as a kid thinking that the world is your oyster and all things are possible if you put in the work to do it, you you grow up having that fundamental belief.

嗯。对你影响更大的是父亲还是母亲？

Yeah. Who was more influential for you, your father or mother?

他们在不同阶段都很有影响力。

Both were influential at different points.

是啊。对吧？

Yeah. Right?

我妈妈每天都在那里。我父亲在我10岁或11岁那个关键夏天打篮球时影响深远，当时我参加了费城一个非常著名的夏季联赛——阳光山联赛。我父亲打过这个联赛，我叔叔也打过，他们都是传奇人物。威尔特·张伯伦在这个联赛打过，厄尔·勒普罗曼·罗也打过。结果轮到我上场时，整个夏天我一分都没得。

My mom was there on a daily basis. My father was really influential at a really critical time where I had a summer where I played basketball when I was like 10 or 11 years old, and a very prominent summer league in Philadelphia called the Sunny Hill League. Where my father played, my uncle played, they were like all time greats and stuff. Will Chamberlain played in the league, know, Earl LeProman Rowe played in the league. And here I come playing, and I don't score one point the entire summer.

真的？一分都没得？你当时多大？

Really? Not one. How old were you?

11岁。10、11岁吧。你是和其他10、11岁的孩子比赛？嗯哼。你一次都没得分？

11. 10, 11. And you're playing against other 10, 11 year olds? Uh-huh. And you didn't score once?

一分都没有。你上场了吗？我上了

Not one. Were you in the game? I was

场。怎么会一分不得？因为我太差劲了。

in the game. How'd you not score? Because I was terrible.

真的？是啊。10岁就那么差劲啊。

Really? Yeah. 10, years old, you were that terrible.

糟糕透了。我当时因为长得太快戴着大护膝，袜子都提到这儿，

Awful. I mean, you know, and I had these big knee pads on because I was growing really fast, and I have socks all way up here,

而我拥有，那

and I had, the

高帮紧身裤。没错，紧得要命。而我得分挂零，没有罚球，没有侥幸投篮，没有快攻上篮，一分未得。我记得为此哭泣，为此沮丧。

high top Skinny. Yeah. Like, skinny as hell. And I scored not a free throw, not a nothing, not a lucky shot, not a breakaway layup, zero points. And I remember crying about it and being upset about it.

父亲只是给了我一个拥抱说，听着，无论你得零分还是六十分，我都会无条件爱你。哇。这才是对孩子最重要的话。那一刻我就想，好吧。这给了我面对失败的无穷信心。

My father just gave me a hug and said, listen, whether you score zero or score 60, I'm gonna love you no matter what. Wow. Now that is the most important thing that you can say to a child. From there, was like, okay. That gives me all the confidence in the world to fail.

我有这份安全感。但去他的，我要砍下60分。走着瞧。没错。就是这样。

I have the security there. But to hell with that, I'm scoring 60. Let's go. Right. Right.

没错。从那时起，我开始全力以赴。始终追随他的脚步。

Right. And from there, I just went to work. I just stayed with him.

我不断练习，反复练习，持续练习。是不是那个夏天惨败后，你在那个年纪就开始形成刻苦努力的心态了？

I kept practicing, kept practicing, kept practicing. Is that when you think the mentality of hard work started to come in for you at that age when you failed so miserably I guess that summer?

我认为正是那时，理解长期规划变得重要，因为我不可能一周就追上这些孩子。一年也追不上。对吧？所以我坐下来告诉自己，好吧，这需要长远谋划。明白吗？

I think that's when the idea of understanding a long term view became important because I wasn't gonna catch these kids in a week. I wasn't gonna catch them in a year. Right? So that's when I sat down and said, okay, this is gonna take some thought. Right?

我首先要练习什么？好吧，投篮。行，咱们先把这事搞定。

What do I wanna work on first? Alright. Shooting. Alright. Let's knock this out.

接下来半年，六个月，啥也不干就练投篮。对吧？之后，再开始创造自己的投篮方式并专注于此。于是我开始列出一系列训练项目。

Let's focus on this half a year, six months, do nothing but shoot. Right? After that, alright, creating your own shot and then you focus. So you start I started creating a menu of things.

当我

When I

第二年夏天回来时，水平稍微提高了些。对吧？我是说

came back the next summer, was a little bit better. Right? I meant

你就像在说'我掌握了十五英尺跳投'。我有我的...对，掌握了

you being like I've got my jump shot from fifteen. I've got my Yeah. Got my

十五英尺跳投。我有三分球能力。就是空位投篮。不能投丢空位球。对吧？

jump shot from fifteen. I got my three point shot. Like just open shots. Not miss open shots. Right?

要能快速出手，因为那些孩子运动能力更强。是啊。后来等我再回来时，已经

Be able to shoot it with speed because those kids are so much more athletic. Yeah. And then the next time I came back, it was a

稍微好一点。

little better.

然后夏天又回来了

And the summer came back

你确定吗？确实好了一点。我得分了。

You sure? Was a little better. I scored.

是啊。虽然不多对吧。但我得分了。

Yeah. And it wasn't much Right. But I scored.

这是十二、十三岁。

This is twelve, thirteen.

十二、十三岁。然后到了14岁，十三岁后半段到十四岁，那时我开始碾压所有人。这一切在两年内发生，我没想到会这么快，但确实如此，因为我必须专注于基础和基本功。而他们则依赖运动天赋和先天条件。由于我坚持基本功，最终就赶超了他们。

Twelve, thirteen. And then 14 came around, back half of 13, 14 years old, and then I was just killing everyone. And it happened in two years, and I wasn't expecting it happen in two years, but it did because what I had to do was work on the basics and the fundamentals. Well, they relied on athleticism and their natural ability. And because I stick to the fundamentals, it just caught up to them.

然后我的身体，你知道，膝盖不再疼痛了。我逐渐适应了自己的体格。而且

And then my body, you know, my knees stopped hurting. I grew into my frame. And

然后是你的运动天赋，一旦掌握了基本功。没错，就是刻苦训练、正确的心态，再加上运动天赋。正是这样。

And then your athleticism, once you have the fundamentals Exactly. The hard work, the mindset, and you tack on the athleticism. Exactly.

然后比赛就结束了。

Then it was game over.

哇。从13岁开始，你的平均表现依然很好吗？

Wow. From 13, you're good average still?

我我当时很棒。真的很棒。然后大概在我快满14岁的时候，我成为了全州最优秀的球员。

I I was good. I was good. And then about about the like the end of my like right when I was turning 14, I became the best player in the state.

14岁？14岁啊。所以从12岁到14岁，你从一分不得成长为全州所有年龄段中最强的球员。

At 14? At 14. So from 12 to 14, you went from scoring zero to being the best in the state of all ages.

是的。但这其实很简单。就像做数学题一样。对吧？想想孩子们平时练习的频率就知道了。

Yep. But it's it's simple. Like if you do the math on this. Right? Like if you if you're thinking about how often kids are playing.

嗯哼。对吧？我也这样告诉我女儿和我执教的女儿球队。这是个简单的数学问题——如果你想成为

Mhmm. Right? I tell this to my to my daughter and my daughter's team as well that I coach. It's a simple thing of math. If you want to be

一个优秀的球员，如果你

a great player, if you

每天坚持练习两三个小时，日复一日持续一整年，你会进步多少？大多数孩子可能每周只练一两次，每次一个半小时

play every single day, two, three hours, every single day, over course of a year, How much better are you getting? Most kids will play maybe, you know, an hour and a half two days a

对吧。算算这个

week. Right. Put the math

数学题。这样是达不到效果的。要达到效果必须...懂吗？所以如果你痴迷般地每天训练两三个小时，持续一年甚至两年

on it. It's not it's not gonna get it done. I'm get it done. Right? So if you're obsessive obsessive obsessively training two, three hours every single day over a year over two years

你会突飞猛进。

You're gonna accelerate.

会有质的飞跃，伙计。

You make quantum leaps, man.

光是参加两周的夏令营，你就能看到变化。我记得打篮球时...你能明显感觉到进步，回来后带着更强的自信和曾经打败你的家伙们打球。是的。我经常跟家长们说...

Just doing a summer camp for two weeks, you you see a difference. I remember playing basketball You see it. You get a lot better, you come back more confident playing on the playground with guys who used to beat you. Yeah. And I and like I I tell the parents on

我的团队，我说过，当我说你的孩子们会成为伟大的篮球运动员时，真的吗？就像，是的，不是的。这不是。这是数学。就是这样。

my team I said it's it's when I say your kids are gonna become great basketball players and like really? Like yeah it's not. There's no It's math. It's it.

每天都出现。

Show up every single day.

每天都出现，完成工作。

Show up every single day, do the work.

但你拥有这种曼巴心态，你的书即将出版，你是如何培养这种心态的？有一个我很喜欢的关于杰·威廉姆斯的美丽故事。我不知道

But you have this mamba mentality, your books coming out soon and how did you develop this? There's a there's a beautiful story that I love from Jay Williams. I don't

你是否

know if

记得杰·威廉姆斯。他之前做过一次采访，谈到他第一次或早期与你比赛时，他说，我要比其他任何人都早到球场热身和练习。

you remember Jay Williams. Where he did an interview a while back and he talked about how when he played you, think the first time or one of the first times he played against you, he was he was like, I'm gonna show up so early to the court to warm up and practice like before anyone.

是的。

Yeah.

他出现在球场，我不确定是在洛杉矶还是我所在的什么地方，而你是唯一在场的人。对。已经在练习罚球，已经在做基础训练。然后他说，我要一直待到科比离开。结果他等了，天哪，一个半小时，两小时后。

He shows up at the court, I don't know if it was in LA or where I was, And you were the only one there. Right. Already shooting free throws, already doing your fundamentals. And he goes, I'm gonna stay here until Kobe leaves. And then he was like, gosh, an hour and half, two hours later.

我得走了。

I gotta go.

我累了。而科比还在投罚球，得分，就像在反复练习基本功。对。后来我们打了那场比赛，你状态火热。赛后他走过来问你，兄弟，你为什么在里面待那么久？

I'm tired. And Kobe's still shooting free throws, scoring, like just going over the fundamentals. Right. He goes, and then we played that game and you were lights out. And he came up to you afterwards and said like, dude, why were you in there for so long?

你是怎么做到的？他说，这是他的原话，你说的。所以我知道你在看，我想向你证明我愿意比你更努力。

And how'd you do it? And he said, this is what he said, you said. So I knew you were watching and I wanted to show you that I was willing to outwork you.

对。

Right.

大致是这个意思。是的。

Something along those lines. Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

我不确定你是否还记得这件事。

I don't know if you remember this.

我记得。你想起来了吗？对，哦，是的。

I remember it. You remember? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

我觉得这种思维方式非常强大，但你是怎么培养出这种心态的？我不确定这是否就是你所说的‘妈妈心态’，但你是如何形成的？又是从何时开始的？

And I thought that was so powerful that you have this mindset, but how did you develop that? I don't I don't know if that's what you call the momma mindset, but how did you develop that? And when did it start?

这始于初中和高中时期，因为和我比赛的很多孩子都来自市中心。所以他们看我的眼神就像在说，好吧，这小子好欺负。对吧？他来自费城郊区，父亲打过NBA，是职业球员。

It started in middle school and high school because a lot of the kids that I was playing against were inner city kids. And so you're looking at me as if, okay, this kid's soft. Right? He's from the suburbs of Philadelphia. His father played in the NBA, played professionally.

他过得轻松。

He's got it easy.

过得轻松，生来就占尽优势，你知道，诸如此类的想法。对吧？所以他们觉得可以对我耍狠或试图恐吓我，用各种手段，但他们做不到。对吧？但当时我就想，好吧，既然你想攻击我。

Got it easy, born on second, you know, all this other stuff. Right? And so they felt like they could try to be physical or try to intimidate me and do all sorts stuff, which they couldn't. Right? But now I'm saying, okay, well, you're trying to attack me.

那我该如何反击？我怎样才能从心理上找到击垮你的方法？我该如何向你证明，不，我才是占上风的人？对吧？所以那就是我开始学会如何在心理上压制对手的起点。

How am I going to attack you? How can I mentally figure out ways to break you down? How can I show you that no, I have the edge? Right? And so that's when it first started for me is figuring out how to get the upper hand on an opponent that way.

那么你会用什么方法在心理上击垮人们呢？

And what would you do to mentally break people down then?

嗯，我是说，你知道，就像

Well, I mean, you know, like

我们曾经有过

we used to have

一个全美训练营，我以前常去。那时候我第一次参加时还是个大二学生。我会做的一件事是，当大家都在食堂吃饭或做类似的事情时，我就直接回健身房。我就是会回健身房。

an all American camp that I used to go to. And, you know, at the time when I first showed I was a sophomore. And one of the things I would do is, while everybody would be at the cafeteria work, you know, eating and doing that sort of stuff, I just go back to the gym. I just go back to the gym.

他们会

They'd be

休息，他们会跑步。他们会看到我离开。对吧？但这时候你就陷入两难了，因为你会想，我要跟着这孩子去锻炼，但我知道他在训练，他早起还做了所有这些事。所以这就是我向他们展示的方式，没错，我可能来自郊区，但你不可能比我更拼命。哇。

resting, they'd running. And they'd see me leave. Right? But now you're in a tough position because you're okay, wanna be like, I'm following the kid to go work out, but I know he's working, he's up early and he's doing all this other And so that was my way of showing them, yeah, may be from the suburbs, but you're not gonna outwork me. Wow.

而且我在心理上会

And I'm mentally gonna

是有人教你这么做的吗？还是你自己决定要深入人心的？

Did someone teach you that? Was that just a thing that you decided like I'm gonna get in people's minds?

我认为这只是为了找到变得更好并赢得比赛的方法。最初这是一种防御机制，因为你知道，是他们先对我出言不逊，一个来自意大利的孩子，

I think it's just figuring out ways to be better and to win the game. And it started as a defense mechanism because you know, they were the ones talking trash to me and, you know, kid from Italy,

巴拉巴拉之类的各种话。然后它

blah blah blah, and all sorts of stuff. And it

就像，好吧，我不能让他们得逞，我必须保护自己。

was like, okay, I gotta I can't let them I gotta defend myself.

是啊，对吧？

Yeah. Right?

然后它就变成了，好吧，你知道，我挺机智的，我能说些相当机智的话。

And then it became okay. You know, I'm pretty witty. I can say some pretty witty things.

是啊，还是个意大利人。

Yeah. And an Italian.

还有个意大利人。对。对。对。

And an Italian. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

这很有趣。你知道，我从未在体能上达到过极高水平。我一直很优秀，但从不是最快、最强壮或最魁梧的那个。但我记得我的优势在于——我不会去参加派对，也不会喝酒。

It's interesting. You know, I never I never was physically gifted to an extreme level. I was always really good, but I was never like the fastest or biggest or strongest. But I remember my edge was I'm not going to go party and I'm not going to drink alcohol.

没错。

Right.

所以我至今从未喝醉过，因为我觉得需要所有优势——当那些比我优秀的家伙深夜外出派对、饮酒并带着宿醉出现时，我就更专注并保持清醒。不过我没像你那样凌晨4点起床，所以...

So I've never been drunk still because I was like I need every edge when guys were out partying late at night who were better than me and drinking and showing up hungover. Was like I'm gonna be more focused and have a clear vision. But I wasn't waking up at 4AM like you, so.

嗯，这很有意思，因为当我打球时，我必须学会如何让队友发挥最佳水平。是的，大多数人认为传球很简单，但那并不能真正提升队友。你必须切实影响他们的行为。

Well, that's interesting because when I played, one of the things that I had to learn is how to get the best out of my teammates. Yeah. Most people think it's a simple thing, passing the ball. But that's not how you make guys better. You have to really affect their behavior.

具体怎么做？比如我会告诉队友们，你们要应对背靠背比赛。

How do you do that? So, yeah, like I would tell guys, you got it back to backs.

我不管我们是在迈阿密，还是在芝加哥这样的好城市。你们不能外出。我们必须休息好。明白吗？

I don't care if we're in Miami. I don't care if we're in a great city or Chicago. You can't go out. We gotta get rest. Right?

背靠背的比赛。

Back to back games.

背靠

Back to

背比赛。

back games.

对吧？周一、周二。你周一打完，周二接着打。

Right? Monday, Tuesday. You play Monday and play again Tuesday.

伙计们不会听的。对吧？你不懂吗？对。

Guys aren't gonna listen. Right? You don't you know? Right.

所以有几次，我说，好吧。我们都出去。我们一起出去。真的？我陪你喝。

So a few times, say, alright. We'll all go out. We'll go out together. Really? I'll drink with you.

对吧？但第二天早上，我五点就来敲你的门。走吧。他们还没

Right? But the next morning, I'm banging on your door at five in the morning. Let's go. They're not getting

我们要去哪里？

Where are we going?

我陪你玩过了。现在轮到你陪我了。哇哦。这就是我们的相处方式。行吗？

I hung out with you. Now you come hang out with me. Wow. This is what we do. Alright?

走吧。你现在在健身房。我们要开始锻炼了。对吧？我们赶上了公交车。

Let's go. You're at the gym. We're working out. Right? We hit the bus.

我们去训练。晚上还有比赛。

We go to practice. We play that night.

然后他们都死了。他们都死了。他们还说什么，教训记住了。真的？教训记住了。

And they're dead. And they're dead. And they're like, lesson learned. Really? Lesson learned.

那就一次性解决他们。

So take them out once.

听着。如果你非要那么做，就去做。但别让那影响到我们此行的目的。明白吗。这才是我们在这里的原因。

Listen. If you're gonna do that, do that. But don't let that compromise what we're here to do. Right. This is why we're here.

这就是你最初来这里的原因。对吧？

This why you're here in the first place. Yeah. Right?

如果我们想赢得冠军，就必须具备冠军的心态和工作态度。

And if we're gonna win a championship, we have to have that championship mentality and work ethic.

所以你得向他们展示，看，科比能做到那样，还有精力站起来完成这个。所以我要么得匹配那种能量，要么就得保持领先。

So That's you gotta show them, look, Kobe can do that and still has the energy to get up and do this. So either I gotta meet that same energy or I gotta keep my butt in front

早点睡觉。

Go to bed early.

是啊。

Yeah.

哇。你还做了哪些事来提升队友的水平？还有哪些方法可以做到？你认为人们在商业团队或任何运动团队中通常能做些什么？

Wow. What are some other things you did to rise the level of the your teammates? What are some other ways that you can And what do you think people can do in general with the business team or any sports team?

我认为你必须倾听。你必须留意同事或队友在说什么，哪些事情能驱动他们、激励他们、触动他们。我最喜欢的一个例子是，每次我讲他的故事时，帕尔都讨厌极了。他真的很讨厌这样。

I think You have to you have to listen. You have to pay attention to to what your colleagues or teammates are saying, and what are certain things that drive them, certain things that motivate them, that trigger them. And one of my favorite ones, pal hates it every time I tell his story. He hates it.

他讨厌这个。但我们在08年输给了凯尔特人队。

He hates it. But we we lost to the Celtics in o eight.

那是个身体对抗激烈的系列赛。我是说，他们把我们打得落花流水。是的。然后我们进入了奥运年，那年我们最终与西班牙队争夺金牌，并击败了他们。

And it was a physical series. I mean, they beat the crap out of us. Yeah. And so we go into the Olympic year that year. We wound up playing Spain for the gold medal match, and we beat them.

嗯哼。所以现在我们回来开始训练营，第一天训练营开始，老兄就出现了。我把我的金牌挂在他的更衣室里。

Uh-huh. And so now we come back to start training camp, and pal shows up first day of training camp. I have my gold medal hanging in his locker room.

哦，不。我是说，

Oh, no. He I mean,

他真正真正热爱的一件事就是他的国家。当然。那对他来说就是一切。所以这简直让他发疯。我说，老兄，听着。

like the one thing that he truly truly loves is his country. Of course. That is like everything to him. So it just drove him crazy. I said, pal, listen.

他说，你是

He said, you're an

我说，听着，老兄。你输给了凯尔特人队。

I said, listen, pal. You lost to the Celtics.

你们在金牌争夺战中输给了我们。可别让这成为三连败。

You lost to us in a gold medal match. Let's not make this three in a row

今年。哇哦。

this year. Wow.

就是这么回事。

That is thing.

而那对他来说就是终点。

And that was that was it for him.

他可能直接跃升到了全新境界。要知道，鲍威尔本就是天才，后来他在身体对抗层面又突破极限——这正是我们需要的，他也做到了，最终我们实现了卫冕。

And he probably stepped up at a whole another level. Well, you know, Powell was a phenomenon to begin with. And then for him was just stepping up to a level of physicality. Yeah. That we needed him to get to, which he did and we went on to win back to back championships.

我的兄弟。

My man.

是的。与单纯依赖天赋相比，理解人类心理和行为对团队协作有多重要？

Yeah. How important is understanding human psychology and human behavior to work with a team as opposed to just relying on your gifts and talents?

这可能是最重要的事。在我们社会的这种文化中，个人或许能做出非凡成就，但若不集体协作，这些成就永远无法发挥全部潜力。你必须找到方法实现集体协作。要知道，菲尔·杰克逊在这方面就很出色。

It's probably the most important thing. When you're in this culture in our society, you can do some phenomenal things individually, but they'll never reach their full potential unless you do them collectively. You have to figure out how to do that. And, you know, Phil Jackson was great

确实如此。嗯。

at that. Mhmm.

菲尔不仅会执教球队或比赛，他还会研读每位球员的所有资料。真的吗？了解你的成长经历、家庭背景、在哪里长大。他会阅读每篇采访，深入了解你，从而更清楚什么能激励你，或你的不安源于何处。对吧？

Phil, you know, he wouldn't just coach the team or coach the game, but he'd read everything about every single player. Really? Learn about your history, how you grew up, how you were raised, where were you where were you raised. You know, he'll read every interview, and he'll learn about you and gives him a better understanding of what's motivating you, or what your insecurities are. Right?

这样他就能更有效地与你沟通，甚至在必要时精准触动你的情绪按钮。

And then it just helps him communicate with you better or even push a button here if he needs to.

你是什么时候意识到了解队友的喜好与厌恶很重要的？是高中时期还是更晚些？

When did you learn that it was important to understand who your teammates are, what their likes or dislikes are? Was that in high school for you or more?

不，我是从菲尔那里学到的。03年有段时间奥尼尔受伤缺席，菲尔把我叫到办公室说：‘现在需要你全力爆发开始得分。’我照做了，连续九场得分超过40分。

No, I learned it from Phil. There was a stretch in 'three where Shaq was out with an injury. And Phil called me up to his office and said, okay, we need you to really turn on the afterburners and start scoring if So we have to I did and I wound up scoring, I think it was nine straight games for 40 plus points.

连续九场？

Nine straight?

连续九场比赛。然后沙克在倒数第二场复出。接着菲尔把我叫到他办公室说，科尔，好吧，我需要你收敛一点。我就问，为什么？我们明明在赢球啊。

Nine straight games. And then Shaq comes back second to last game of that. And then Phil calls me up to his office and says, Cole, okay, I need you to dial it back. I'm like, why? Like we're winning.

不明白。就因为我们的目标是夺冠。虽然靠你这样打能进西部决赛。但在东部，有沙克坐镇内线我们就能统治禁区。可如果你继续这么打，我们会失去沙克。

Don't understand. Just because our goal is to win a championship. And we can get to the Western Conference with you playing this way. But in the East, we can dominate them inside with Shaq in the post. But if you continue to do this, we'll lose Shaq.

我们会失去

We'll lose

他。他的动力，他的激情。

him. His motivation, his excitement.

这会触发他的逆反心理对吧？所以我需要你收着打，这样才能在六月份把沙克的状态调动起来。哇哦。我当时就这么盯着他看，

When triggers him. Right? So I need you to pull back so we can pull Shaq forward for June. Wow. And I just looked at him like,

这家伙真是个人精。

this is one smart dude.

哇哦。确实。太精明了。这哥们真是个智者。所以我后来就收敛了。

Wow. Yeah. Really smart. He's one smart dude, man. So I pulled pulled it back.

哇，确实。你认为自退役以来遇到的最大挑战是什么？最大的挑战。

Wow. Yeah. What do you think what's been the greatest challenge you've had since leaving the game? The greatest challenge.

我想，你知道，我是说，

I think it's You know, mean,

你拿过奥斯卡奖。你正在推出播客和节目，

you won an Oscar. You're you're launching podcasts and shows and

还有新书要出版。是的。但这感觉不一样。就像前几天我们在办公室里聊到的，你知道，当你还在打球时。嗯。

you got a book coming out. Yeah. But it's it's it's different though. Like, you know, we were just talking about it here in the office the other day. You know, when you play the game Mhmm.

投进制胜球或错失关键球，观众的反应立竿见影。你能看到人们的反馈，能感受到那种氛围，对吧？

You hit a game winning shot, you miss a shot, the reaction's there. You can see how people responding to it. Right? You can feel it.

那种能量是实时的。

The energy is there.

能量就在眼前。而现在的工作不同，比如创作《亲爱的篮球》或《小兔崽子》时，我无法直接看到人们的反应。多希望能亲眼见证一个家庭第一次听《莉莉的柠檬水》时，女儿跟着哼唱的场景——但这种即时反馈消失了。这就是我怀念的挑战，无法再汲取那种......

The energy is there. What I do now, you don't. Like I don't see how people are affected by Dear Basketball or creating the punies and you put it out there. Like I wish I could see a car ride of a family the first time their daughter hears Lily's Lemonade and what she's doing, you know, she's singing along to it, that's not there, right? So that's the challenge, that's the one thing that I miss is being able The to feed off of the

无论是投篮命中或失误，比赛胜利或失败，你都能即时得到反馈，总会得到一个结果。

instant feedback that you get from missing or scoring a shot, winning or losing a game, Either way you're getting a result.

是的，这是关键一点。我也花了很多时间与导师们相处。我曾去过皮克斯和迪士尼工作室，那里的动画制作简直棒极了。我和他们聊过《冰雪奇缘》和《海洋奇缘》，说我们的孩子多么喜欢这些作品，他们总是表现得特别开心。

Yes, that's the one thing. I spent a lot of time with mentors as well. I've been at Pixar and Disney Studios. They've been absolutely wonderful, Animation. And I've talked to them about Frozen and Moana and how our kids love them and they're always like, oh, that's awesome.

他们想听到这些反馈，因为根本没机会亲眼看到。他们不可能——

And they wanna hear it because they don't ever get a chance to truly see it. They're not Not sitting

像普通观众那样坐在电影院里。

in a movie theater like No.

没错。他们也没时间去迪士尼乐园，在园区里走走，看看有多少家庭在享受他们创作的内容——因为他们正忙着制作下一部作品。是的，确实如此。

No. And they don't have time to go to Disneyland and walk around the park and see how many families are enjoying the content that they've created because they're busy making the next one. Creating. Yes. Yes.

所以这就是关键所在。

So that that's the one thing.

你认为运动员退役后面临的最大挑战是什么？

What do you think the biggest challenge is for most athletes after they retire?

我认为这是对重新开始的恐惧。这种恐惧在我身上也确实存在。

I think it's the fear of of starting anew. And that was certainly present for me as well.

真的吗？是啊。你是指身份认同还是...

Really? Yeah. Like identity you mean or

不，是从零开始的问题。明白吗？因为当你...当你打了二十年球，我打了二十年，你达到某个水平后就会想，好吧。

No. It's it's starting from scratch. Right? Because when you when you play for twenty years, I play for twenty years, you reach a certain level. You're like, okay.

等等，我得从山脚重新出发，试图攀登顶峰。首先，我要爬的是哪座山？我甚至不知道自己要做什么，这非常...非常可怕。

Wait a minute. I have to start again at the base of a mountain and try to climb the top of this mountain. First of all, what mountain am I climbing? I don't even know, like, what the hell am I gonna be doing. It'd be it's very it's very scary.

非常可怕。对你也是吗？哦，绝对的。哇，绝对是。

It's very scary. Even for you? Oh, absolutely. Wow. Absolutely.

而真正帮助到我的其实是跟腱受伤，因为这迫使我坐下来思考：今天可能就是职业生涯终结的日子。

And the thing that helped me actually was hurting my Achilles because that forced me to sit there and say, the day could be today that your career is over.

你是说在打球期间的任何时候都可能，是啊。

At any time when you were playing, you mean, yeah.

现在你该怎么办？你对篮球生涯之后的生活有所规划，但如果今天就是那一天，你

Now what do you do? You have these ideas about doing something with your life after basketball, but what if today is the day that you

就这样了。现在你打算怎么办？

that's it. Now what do you do?

所以跟腱受伤期间，我有大把时间坐在那里沉思，想着想着我对自己说最好开始行动。哇。就是这样。

So I had all this time sitting there with my Achilles injury and contemplating and thinking and I said I better get to work. Wow. That was that.

那么你之后的愿景是什么？是从事现在的工作还是有其他想法？或者说你对未来的规划是

What was the vision for you afterwards then? Was it to do what you're doing now or did you have other ideas or what is what's the vision for

起初我很纠结，因为我问的第一个问题就是错误的——我能进入的最大行业是什么？

I struggled with it at first because the first question I asked which is the wrong question is what's the biggest industry I can get into?

是更多考虑金钱吗？

Was it more money thinking?

是的。或者说金钱导向。想着运动员们都说退役后收入会减少，这是你收入的来源。好吧这是个挑战，我能做什么？我记得当时就直接去尝试

Yes. Or Money thinking. Saying okay athletes are saying you can't make more revenue when you retire this is your source of your income is here. Saying okay that's a challenge what can I do? And I remember just going for

你不是成立了个基金还是什么来着？

Didn't you launch a fund or something?

是的，没错。我确实成立了。当时我骑车兜风时突然想通——别再用那种思路了，你的思考方式有问题。

I did. Yeah. I did. And so I I started I went for a ride and I said okay, stop thinking of it that way. You're thinking of it the wrong way.

你当初为什么打篮球？因为我热爱它。那么，你...

Why'd you start playing basketball? Because I loved it. Alright. What do you

热爱做什么？噢，我热爱讲故事。

love to do? Oh, I love to tell stories.

很好，那就专注这个。这就是我的起点。后来事情逐渐发展，我开始深入了解金融行业，看到运动员退役后破产的案例，就思考：如何降低这种风险？怎样才能聪明地投资？

Alright. Let's do that. And then that's where it started for me. And and then on top of that, it became things like, you you started learning more about the financial industry and about players going broke once they retire and saying, how can I can I minimize the chances of that happening? What are things that I can do to invest my money smartly?

同时也在某种程度上掌控结果。于是我联系了迈克·雷波利，这位创建了维他命水、海盗战利品等品牌的企业家，开始向他学习。后来就获得了投资BodyArmor的机会。

Also help control some of that outcome to a certain extent. Right. And that's when I called Mike Repoli. Mike Repoli was an entrepreneur who built vitamin water, Pirate's Booty, some other companies and started learning from him. And then from that came the opportunity to invest in body armor.

对，就是现在很火的那个品牌。但这一切都源于那次受伤后的自我审视，不得不直面人生转折点的黑暗时刻。

Yeah. And which Which we're delicious. Taking now. But all that came from the injury really having to self assess and you know, face that really dark room of what comes next.

讲故事是你真正热衷的事情。在你的人生中，有没有一个反复出现的主题故事？是小时候听到的某个深深触动你的故事，还是一本让你觉得‘这就是我’的书或电影？

Storytelling is something you're really passionate about. What's a story over your life that's been a a constant theme that you go back to? Is there something you heard as a kid that you that really resonates with you or a book or a movie that just feels like this is me?

是啊，说来有趣。电影很多，但我有位在洛德马里昂教英语的菲斯克老师说过一句名言：‘在终点休息，而非中途’。这句话一直是我的座右铭。

Yeah. That's funny. Movies are plenty, but there's a quote from one of my English teachers at Lord Marion named mister Fisk. He had a great quote that said, rest at the end, not in the middle. And that's something I always live by.

你知道的，我不会停下休息。我会继续前进。虽然现在我还有很多未知的答案，甚至未提出的问题。但我会持续前行，在过程中逐步解决这些问题。

You know, I'm not gonna rest. I'm gonna keep on pushing now. There are a lot of answers that I don't have, even questions that I don't have. But I'm just gonna keep going. I'm just gonna keep going and I'll figure these things out as you go.

对吧？就这样不断积累。所以我始终努力践行这个理念：在终点休息。在终点休息。

Right? And you just continue to build that way. So I try to live by that all the time. Rest at the end. Rest at the end.

那个最让你寝食难安却尚未找到答案的问题是什么？

What's the question that eats you alive the most that you haven't answered yet?

那个让我寝食难安却尚未找到答案的问题啊。

The question that eats me alive that I haven't answered yet.

哦，就是你仍在寻找答案的那个问题。

Oh, that you're still looking for the answer.

我仍在寻找答案。如何讲好一个故事。我觉得每个人都有各自的答案。就像我坐下来写《亲爱的篮球》时，我在想，好吧，我想表达什么？你知道，你会有些特定的行为模式，以及如何构建某些内容。

I'm still looking for the answer. How to tell a good story. I think anybody has that answer. You know, like when I when I sat down to write Dear Basketball, was like, okay, what do I wanna say? And you know, you you have certain acts and how you can structure certain things.

对吧？故事的起伏跌宕。那些自远古时代就存在的特定叙事公式，但这门学问如此精确。极具挑战性，是的。所以这个问题确实很有趣。

Right? The ebbs and flows of story. Certain formulas that have been there since the beginning of time, but it's such an exact science. So challenging, yeah. Right, and so that one question is really interesting.

为什么你想讲一个伟大的故事？

Why do you want to tell a great story?

我认为故事是推动世界的力量。无论是励志故事还是信息性故事，这世上没有任何事物能脱离故事而运转。

I think stories is what moves the world. Whether it's an inspirational story, it's an informational one. Nothing in this world moves without story.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道，无论是政治领域还是体育界，我们所拥有的一切都因故事而生动。因此我认为这是一切的根源。如果我们想让世界变得更美好，故事正是关键所在

You know, being from a political world, sports world, nothing that we have moves without story. And so I think that is the root of everything. And if we're gonna try to make the world a better place, story's the right place

我同意。但大多数人并不理解。

to I agree. But most people don't understand.

比如，去年的时候，人们会走过来问我，好吧，你打算做什么？我说，我要成为一个讲故事的人。

Like, my my last year, people would come up to me and say, okay, what are you gonna do? I said, I'm gonna be a storyteller.

真的吗？

Really?

然后他们就会说，什么

And they go They're like, what

你在说什么？

are you talking about?

好吧，伙计。那么，到底需要做什么？是的。他们会说，你退休后会经历大约一周的抑郁期。没错。

Alright, man. So so what do really have to do? Yeah. They're like, what's gonna happen when you retire is you're gonna go through like a week of depression. Yeah.

然后第二周就会像是处于否认阶段，而我就说，老兄，说真的，我很好。所以过了一段时间，我就烦了，干脆说，不知道。我可能会去打高尔夫什么的。

Then the second week is gonna be like denial and all I'm like, dude, seriously, I'm good. So after a while, I just got sick of it and I just just said, don't know. I'll I'll go play golf or something.

对。就对他们撒个谎。

Right. Just tell them the lie.

我什么都不打算做。

I'm not gonna do anything.

我去。

I'll go

玩房地产什么的。随便吧。

play real estate. Whatever.

我什么都不打算做。

I'm not gonna do anything.

我就打算闲坐着。

I'm just gonna sit around.

对你来说失败是什么感觉？很刺激。为什么很刺激？

What does losing feel like to you? It's exciting. Why is it exciting?

因为这意味着你有不同的进步途径。有些问题你可以发现并加以利用，对吧？某些暴露出来的弱点需要你去弥补，对吧？

Because it means you have different ways to get better. There are certain things that you can figure out that you can take advantage of. Right? Certain weaknesses that were exposed that you need to shore up. Right?

所以这很令人兴奋。我是说，输掉比赛确实糟透了。对吧。但与此同时，只要你仔细看，答案就在那里。

So it was exciting. I mean, it sucks to lose. Right. But at the same time, there are answers there if you just look at them.

因为比起胜利，你从失败中获取的信息可能更多。

Because you get the information from losing more than from winning probably.

是啊，是啊。我是说，赢的时候答案也在那里。你只需要去审视它们。对。

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, answers are there when you win too. You you you just have to look at them. Yeah.

对吧？所以这是个持续的过程。赢的时候令人兴奋，输的时候也同样令人兴奋，因为过程应该完全一致。无论输赢，你都要回顾、审视，找出可以改进的地方。

Right? So it's a constant process. It's exciting when you win. It's exciting when you lose because the process should be exactly the same. Whether you win or you lose is you go back and you look and you find things that you could have done better.

你会发现哪些做得好且有效的方法。你要弄清楚它们为何有效？怎样才能再次发挥作用？是的。

You find things that you've done well that worked. You figure out how did they work? Why did they work? How can you make them work again? Yeah.

但最困难的是直面这些问题。那真是个极其艰巨的挑战。

And but the hardest thing is to face that stuff. That's a really really tough challenge.

你是说直面它？对着镜子里的自己说，好吧，这就是我的表现，或者这就是事情的经过，然后...

You mean face it? You mean look yourself in the mirror and say okay this is how I showed up or this is what happened and

我给你举个例子。凯蒂·卢·萨缪尔森是全国最优秀的大学篮球运动员之一。她在康涅狄格大学打球，即将升入大四。

I'll give you an example. So Katie Lou Samuelson is one of the best college basketball players in the country. She plays at UConn, she's gonna be a senior.

现在。

Right now.

现在。是的。她来自我们这边的亨廷顿海滩，所以她过来指导我队里的一些女孩们，帮忙当教练。她们上个赛季非常艰难，在决赛中输给了圣母大学。

Right now. Yeah. And she's from Huntington Beach out here by us and so she comes down and she works with some of my my girls on the team and she helps coach and and they just had a really tough season last year where they lost to Notre Dame in the final.

没错。真的很艰难。人生首败。多年来的第一次失利，对吧？

That's right. Really tough. First loss in life. First loss. Years, right?

所以我问她，你看过圣母大学那场比赛吗？她说没有。我说，为什么不看呢？她说我不想看。我说我知道你不想，但今年你们还会对阵圣母大学，对吧？

And so I asked her, said, have you watched the Notre Dame game? She was like, no. I said, well, why not? I said, I don't wanna watch that. Said, I know you don't, but you're gonna play Notre Dame this year, yeah?

是啊。你们再次在决赛中相遇的几率有多大？

Yeah. What's the chances you see them again in the final?

他说，

He goes,

嗯，你很可能还会再遇到他们。所以，你不能就这样出现和他们比赛，却不知道自己上次为何输掉那场比赛，对吧？你必须正视自己在比赛中犯的错误，做那些艰难的事情——回看比赛录像，研究那场比赛，避免因为不敢面对而一再重复同样的错误。所以她来到了办公室。

well, you probably see them again. So, well, you can't show up and play them without knowing why you lost that one. Right? So, you know, the mistakes that you've made in that game, you have to do the hard stuff and watch that game and study that game to not make those mistakes over and over again just because you weren't brave enough to face it. So she came down to the office.

我把录像带到办公室，我们一起坐下来观看了那场比赛。

I brought down the office and we sat down. We watched that game together.

哇。

Wow.

对吧？你必须直面问题。

Right? And you gotta you gotta deal with it.

面对

Face

它。必须解决它。面对它。从中学习。

it. Gotta deal with it. Face it. Learn from it.

哇。对她来说，重新看那些本可以赢的比赛录像一定很尴尬吧

Wow. It must have been cringing for her to just be like, oh, replaying like we could have won all

正是这样，完全没错，

That's these exactly it,

我不就是刚做了那件事嘛。

isn't I just did that one thing.

完全正确。

Exactly right.

如果我没犯规，那球就该那么进，完全正确。

If I didn't get that foul if I was scored Exactly that right.

你看着比赛录像会说，哦，这里防守错位了。哦，这里出现了空档。所有这些细节都让人沮丧。但你肯定不想再经历那种感觉了，对吧？

You look at it and say, oh, there's the mismatch. Oh, there's the gap. You know, and all those little things and it sucks. But but you don't wanna have that feeling again, do you? Right?

所以你必须认真研究它，直面它。不是说下次遇到同样情况就一定能赢，但至少能给自己更大的机会。是的。

So you gotta really study it, face it. And not to say you'll win the next time you're faced, but you at least you'll you'll give yourself a better a better chance. Yeah.

那你每场比赛后的固定流程是什么？几乎每场录像都会复盘，还是只看特定比赛？

And did you what was your routine and ritual like after every game? Would you watch almost every game over or certain games?

全部都是。

All of them.

每一场比赛你每一场

Every game you Every

比赛。

game.

整场比赛都回来了？那个

The whole game back? The

整场比赛。不可能。是的。所以这要从我那时说起，当菲尔·杰克逊在湖人队的第一年，他的一位助理教练名叫特克斯·温特，我称他为尤达大师。我是说，他来这里时已经82岁了。

whole game. No way. Yeah. So it started with me when I was a when Phil Jackson's his first year here with the Lakers, one of his assistant coaches, his name was Tex Winter, and I call him Yoda. I mean, he was like 82 when he got here.

哇。他负责教我三角进攻战术。

Wow. He was responsible for teaching me the triangle offense.

那时候你多大？

How old were you then?

我当时21岁。所以三年，

I was 21. So three years,

在联盟里待了四年？

four years in the league?

对。大概是我的第四年

Yeah. My about my fourth year

好的。

in the Okay.

于是我就去了他的房间，那时候还没有

And so I I go up to his room and this is when there were there

iPad这类东西。

were no iPads or anything like that.

对吧？所以当你出差在外时，得打电话到前台让他们把电视送上来。就是那种带滚轮的玩意儿，还有VHS和卡带要塞进去。

Right? So when you're on the road K. K. You have call down to the front desk and have to bring up the TV Right. With the whole you know, the roll y thing and the VHS and the cassette tape popping in.

我原以为我们会看所谓的触球时刻。所以观察你持球时的所有触球，你做出的每个决定，好的坏的都要。不，我们是从比赛开始——天啊——一直看到比赛结束。

And I thought we're gonna watch what we call touches. So watch all your touches when you have the ball, all the decisions you make, good ones and bad. No. We're watching the start of the game Oh my gosh. To the end of the game.

而且不是电视转播视角，我们看的是现场录像。热身环节、暂停时间全都不放过。

And not like not like the TV feed. We're watching the in arena feed. The layup line, the timeouts.

我的天啊。

Oh my gosh.

没错。倒带回放、暂停、快进、慢动作...那个赛季每场比赛的每个细节，都和82岁的尤达大师一起复盘。老天，他的犀利程度简直无人能及。

Yeah. Rewinding, stopping, fast forward rewinding, slow motion, every little thing, every game of that season with the 82 year old Yoda. Oh my gosh. Who is as brutally honest as you can get.

那个赛季让你学到了什么？

What did that teach you that season?

你知道，它教会我关注细节。嗯哼。对，要从最微观的角度观察事物。没错。

You know, it taught me to look at detail. Mhmm. Right. Look at thing things at their smallest. Right.

观察肢体语言。注意球员间的能量流动，无论是我方还是对手。哇。还有战术运用。

Look at body language. Know, Look at the energy between players, our team and the other team. Wow. Right. Look at the tactics.

纵观整体战略，观察战术如何具体展现。因为我看了大量比赛录像，这让我能在实时比赛中像看录像一样洞察全局。哇。

Look at the overall strategy and to look at how tactically things are manifesting themselves. And because I watch so much film, then it gave me the ability to see game in real time as if I was watching film. Wow.

我能看到这里、那里、到处都在爆发，因为很多时候

Where I can see pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, because a lot

比赛节奏会突然加快。但如果你训练自己观看数小时的录像，比赛就不再显得那么快了。你能真正识别出谁在做什么以及为什么这么做。然后就能实时将队员部署到正确位置。

of times the game starts moving really fast. But if you train yourself to watch hours and hours of film, the game's not moving that fast anymore. You can really recognize who's doing what and why. Then you can position guys in the right places in real time.

在事情发生前就预见到。对。没错。我们知道，在橄榄球领域，我们每周只看一次比赛录像

Seeing it before it happens. Yes. Yeah. We know, on football, we'd watch it once a week, game film

嗯。

Mhmm.

但不是每场比赛后都看。每周只有一场比赛。有时候一周要打三场。

But not, you know, after every game. It was only one game a week. You got like three three a week sometimes.

是啊。你们必须...必须继续前进。

Yeah. You gotta you gotta go.

我知道汤姆·布雷迪对比赛录像也痴迷不已。我是说，看他最近出的节目《汤姆对抗时间》，全是他埋头研究录像的画面。嗯哼。甚至比赛结束几个月后，他还在研究备战，对吧？就像他永不停歇那样。

I know Tom Brady is obsessive over game film as well. I mean, watching his show that came out, Tom versus the Time, was all about him just in there studying. Mhmm. Even months after the game, he's studying to prepare, right? Just like he's Nonstop.

而这正是你认为的关键之一。就像如果你不看录像——无论是作为舞台演讲者还是音乐表演者——不回顾自己的表现，你就无法进步。老兄，必须学习啊。

And that's that's one of the keys you think. It's like if you're not watching film, whether it be as a speaker on stage or a performer and a musician, you're not watching yourself back. You gotta learn, man.

碧昂丝也是同样的做法。真的吗？每次表演后，她立刻打开笔记本回看自己的演出。

I mean, Beyonce's same same thing. Really? After a performance, she's immediately on her laptop rewatching the performance.

不会吧。

No way.

千真万确。研究如何做得更好，哪些环节可以改进。对吧？这种痴迷就是成功的附带品。

Yes. Seeing how to do things better. What could we have done differently? Right? I mean, it's it's just it's it's a it's an obsessiveness that comes along with it.

你希望事情尽可能完美。虽然明白没有绝对的完美，但挑战就在于无限接近完美。嗯哼。你能做什么呢？

You want things to be as perfect as they can be. Understanding that nothing is ever perfect. But the challenge is try to get them as perfect as they can be. Mhmm. And what can you do?

这都在你的掌控中。所以掌控你能控制的。我可以整天看录像，这能帮助我变得更好。没错。

It's in your control. So control what you can. I can watch film all day long. It's gonna help me Get better. Yes.

是的。

Yes.

那么你的队友们是否也跟上了你这种痴迷的态度，还是你只是鼓励他们，或者具体是怎么做的？

Now did you have your teammates also follow on this obsessiveness that you had as well or did you just encourage them or what was the

不，你不能强迫别人那样做。对吧？但你能做的是改变他们的行为方式，并调整他们谈论比赛时的用语。所以在球队大巴、飞机上，或是训练后更衣室里，我会看录像，叫上帕尔、拉马尔、D。

No. You can't push somebody to do that. Right? But what you can do is is alter behavior and also change the vernacular of how they speak about the game. So on team buses, team planes, in a locker room after practice, I would look at the film, I'd pull pal, Lamar, D.

菲什，把他们拉到一边说，来看看这个。对吧？我们或许该这样做、那样做等等。

Fish, pull them aside and say, let's look at this. Right? We probably should have done this, that, and the other.

所以你会向他们展示比赛的细节

So you'll show them the game from a little

对，一点点来。然后用执行层面的术语和他们交流。绝不是‘加油伙计们，我们能做得更好’这种空洞的口号。

Yeah. Bit here and And then you speak to him in in executional terms. It's never, come on guys, we can do better. Come on guys, we can do better. That's rah rah stuff.

明白吗？领导者必须提供非常战术性的、可操作的调整建议。比如防守方这么做时，我们就该这样这样应对。

Right? A leader must give very tactical, you know, things that we can do, adjustments. Okay. The defense is doing this, and the other. That means we should probably do this, this, this, that, and the other.

赛季进行到一半时，通过那种行为，你开始看到他们以同样的方式回应你。对吧？就像，好吧，科尔，他们对你这样那样。也许我们应该这样做那样做。好吧。

By midway through the season, through that behavior, you start seeing them communicating the same way back to you. Right? And it's like, okay, Cole, they're doing this that and the other to you. Maybe we should do this and that. Like, okay.

是的。太棒了。很好。我们开始吧。是的。

Yeah. Awesome. Great. Let's do it. Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

关于第十六、十七、十八赛季？你还在像头十年那样痴迷地观看每场比赛录像吗？

About season sixteen, seventeen, eighteen? Are you still watching every game film as obsessively as the first ten years?

现在不了。不。嗯，当我还在打球时

Not not now. No. Well, when I was playing

当你还在打球的时候。

When you were playing.

是的。所以当我打球时，我会做的是研究录像，但主要是研究我们的年轻球员。看看他们在哪些方面需要发展，以及我如何帮助他们成长？我的意思是，这就是从，你知道的，作为单一主导球员到理解需要帮助这些其他人的重大转变。是的。

Yeah. So when I was playing, what I would do is is study the film, but study our younger players. And see what areas do they need to develop in and how can I help them develop? I mean, that was that was the big challenge as you move from, you know, being the single dominant player Yeah. To understanding, okay, have to help these other guys.

我该如何激励其他人？这很难。我的意思是，你在整个职业生涯中都是如此强势。作为史上最伟大的之一，你是否曾有过弱点？或者说，因为你总是在努力克服弱点使其变成优势，但到最后或接近尾声时，你是否曾觉得‘天啊，我还是没能完全掌握比赛的这一部分’？

How do I lift everyone else up? It's tough. What I mean, you were so dominant in your whole career. One of the greatest of all time, was there a weakness that you had or did you because obviously you're always trying to master your weaknesses so they became strengths but at the end or towards the end did you ever feel like gosh I still haven't like mastered this one part of the game?

对我来说，挑战始终是同情心和同理心。因为你会说，伙计们，行动起来。取得成果。闭嘴。别抱怨。

The challenge for me was always compassion and empathy. Because you're like, guys, let's go. Get results. Shut up. Don't complain.

对吧？我不想听你发牢骚。我不想

Right? I don't wanna hear your whining. I don't wanna

听到。对，借口。

hear Right. Excuses.

别告诉我水面有多汹涌，把船开回来就行。你知道，我我不想听这些。明白吗？这很有趣。关键在于理解，好吧，这些人也有自己的生活。

Don't tell me how rough the water is, just bring the boat in. You know, I I don't I don't wanna hear it. You know? And it's That's funny. It's understanding like, okay, these guys have lives.

对。在这里之外

Right. Outside of here

他们还有其他事情要处理。

They have other things happening.

发生在他们身上的其他事情可能会影响他们的训练方式或表现方式，对吧？我过去很难理解这一点，因为没有什么能困扰到我。你知道，任何个人问题，在我这里从来都不是问题。

Of other things happening to them that may be affecting the way that they're practicing or the way that they're performing. Right? And it was hard for me to understand that because nothing bothered me. You know, anything personally, you know, never fazed me when I'm

你把它们分隔开了。

You compartmentalized it.

非常彻底。所以我无法理解为什么我的队友们做不到这一点，直到后来，你知道，我不得不在这方面下功夫。这确实很难。是的。

Very well. So I couldn't understand how my teammates couldn't do that either until I you know, so I had to really work on that aspect of it. That's hard. Yeah. Is.

那么你是否觉得

So do you feel like

你从未真正拥有过你希望拥有的那种同理心，直到最近也许几年才有所改变？

you never really had the compassion you wish you would have had, like, until the last maybe couple years?

是的。所以我在想，09年左右事情开始发生变化，我开始真正有意识地努力去更好地理解。这并不意味着，你有同情心和同理心，就会对他们心软。更多的是把自己放在一边，设身处地理解他们的感受。然后你必须做出某些决定，比如，我需要按下哪些按钮才能让这个球员提升到下一个水平？

Yeah. So I I think about o nine things started changing for I started really making a conscious effort to better understand. And that doesn't mean, I mean, you have compassion and empathy, you go soft on them. It's more like you put yourself to the side and you put yourself in their shoes and understand what they're feeling. And then you have to make certain decisions of, okay, what buttons do I need to push for this player to get them to the next level?

所以这从来不是坐着无所事事、皆大欢喜的事情。如果你是一个领导者，你的职责就是激发出他们最好的一面，即使他们当时可能不喜欢这样。

So it's never it's not sit around and all it's all happy go lucky type of thing. If you're a leader, your job is to get the best out of them even if, you know, they may not like it at that time.

是啊。哇哦。在你二十个赛季里，你最自豪的是什么？

Yeah. Wow. What are you most proud of from your twenty seasons?

说实话，这听起来可能有点肤浅，但我得说在第七场击败凯尔特人队。那是我最自豪的

Honestly, it was sounds may sound a little shallow, but I gotta say beating the Celtics in game seven. That's what I'm most proud

因为那是为什么呢？

of because it was Why?

那是最艰难的。你知道，你当时对阵的是拉简·隆多、保罗·皮尔斯、凯文·加内特

It was the hardest. You know, you're playing with Rajon Rondo, Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett

全明星球员。

All Stars.

雷·阿伦，还有你知道的，当时是我、鲍威尔和其他球队不要的球员。我们作为一个团队是如何想出对策的？我之所以如此热爱那个系列赛，是因为我们在对阵波士顿的比赛中以2比3落后。然后我们有两个主场比赛。我记得坐在更衣室里，他们在那一场比赛中把我们打得落花流水。

Ray Allen and you know, it was myself, Powell and the players that other teams didn't want. And, you know, how do we figure out as a group what to do? And the reason why I love that series so much is that we went down three games to two against Boston. And now you got two games coming home. I remember sitting in the locker room and they beat the crap out of us to that game.

所以我们坐在

So we're sitting in

更衣室里，气氛异常安静。我坐在那儿环顾四周，我们刚在08年输给了凯尔特人队。所以这次算是复仇对吧？可他们又一次把我们打得落花流水。对吧？

the locker room, and it was really, really quiet. And I'm sitting there looking around, and we just lost the Celtics in o eight. So this is like revenge, right? And they're kicking our butt again. Right?

于是我坐在那儿，突然笑了起来。我记得德里克·费舍尔和拉马尔用眼神问我：有什么好笑的？我说：伙计们，他们把我们都打爆了。他们就是彻底碾压了我们。然后他们说：我不觉得这有什么好笑。

So I sit around, I just started laughing. I started laughing, and then I remember Derek Fisher looked at me like and Lamar looked at me and goes, what what is funny? I said, dude, they beat the crap out of all of us. They just beat the crap out. And say, I'm missing the part where that's funny.

我说：听着，如果赛季初有人告诉你，只要在主场赢两场比赛就能成为NBA总冠军，你愿意接受吗？他们都说：当然愿意。

I said, man, listen. If we start this season and they say, you know, all you have to do is win two games at home and you're NBA champ, would you take that? Yeah. They're like, right. Yeah.

没错。这就是我们要做的。主场。三比二。

Right. That's all we gotta do. Yeah. Home. Three two.

赢两场。我们就是NBA总冠军。只需要连续赢两场比赛。就这样。第一场交给我们，我向你们保证，他们绝不可能在我们的主场赢下第七场。

Win two. We're NBA champions. All we gotta do is win two two games in a row. That's it. We'll take care of the first game, and I promise you, they're not winning game seven on our home floor.

绝对不可能。于是我们都笑了。然后我们上场，找到了解决办法。但那场第七战，我们在第四节还落后15分。对吧？

It's not happening. So we all just laughed about it. And then we went out, and we figured it out. But that game seven was we're down 15 points in the fourth quarter. Right?

就在这种时刻，你们必须彼此对视着说：团队的灵魂必须保持坚韧。因为这种时刻正是团队分崩离析的临界点。如果彼此之间缺乏能量，失去信任，你们就完了。而我们当时能够齐心协力，深挖潜力，说：好吧，我们一定能找到解决办法。

And that's when you have to collectively look at each other and say, you know, the spirit of your team must be good. Because at that moment is when teams fracture. If the energy amongst each other isn't there, that trust isn't there, you're done. And we were able to collectively dig deep together and say, alright, we're gonna figure this thing out.

哇。我当时状态也不好，而且

Wow. And I wasn't playing well, and

我投篮手感糟透了。但队友们挺身而出，他们扛起了责任。是的。哇。

I wasn't shooting the ball well at all. And so my teammates picked you up and they delivered. Yes. Wow.

天啊老兄，我不想占用你太多时间。估计只剩五到七分钟了。我在Instagram上看到你凌晨四点独自在黑暗中健身。你已拥有史上最辉煌的职业生涯之一，赚足了财富，现在甚至拿了奥斯卡。明明可以享受成就，却依然坚持凌晨四点训练——要知道你刚满40岁。

Gosh man, I want to be respectful of your time. Know it's only probably like five to seven minutes left. I saw on Instagram that you're up at like 4AM lifting by yourself in the dark And again, you've had one of the most incredible careers arguably of all time. Made all the money in the world, got a freaking Oscar now. You've got all these other things happening and yet you're still waking up or at least you're in the gym at 4AM working out and you just turned 40.

对吧？先说声恭喜...谢谢。真希望我将来能像你一样状态这么好。为什么现在这个人生阶段还要保持这种强度的早起训练？

Yeah. Right? Which congratulations by Thank the you. I hope I look as good as you have ever. Why still wake up that early and train at this level in your life right now?

这个嘛，有几个原因。刚退役时我确实放纵过一阵子

Well, I mean, there there are several factors for that. Like, when I first retired, I let myself go a little bit.