写作人生

这是iHeart播客。

This is an iHeart podcast.

百分百真人制作。

Guaranteed Human.

我是特别探员雷加尔，特别探员布拉德利·霍尔。

This is special agent Regal, special agent Bradley Hall.

2018年，联邦调查局捣毁了一个为中国国家安全部工作的间谍网络，该部门是世界上最具神秘色彩的情报机构之一。

In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security, one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world.

《第六局》播客讲述的是国家安全部内部运作的故事，以及一个人的野心与失误如何揭开了其秘密宝库的面纱。

The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets.

请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或您收听播客的任何平台收听《第六局》。

Listen to the sixth bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

你好。

Hi.

我是鲍勃·皮特曼，iHeartMedia的董事长兼首席执行官，我将开启我的新播客《数学与魔法：营销前沿的故事》的全新一季。

I'm Bob Pittman, chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia, and I'm kicking off a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Magic, Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing.

《数学与魔法》带您深入最大企业和行业幕后，分享营销领域最聪明头脑的洞见。

Math and Magic takes you behind the scenes of the biggest businesses and industries while sharing insights from the smartest minds in marketing.

本季《数学与魔法》将邀请液体死亡公司首席执行官迈克·切萨里奥。

Coming up this season on Math and Magic, CEO of Liquid Death, Mike Cesario.

人们以为创意灵感就像淋浴时突然闪现的灯泡时刻，但实际上它更像一件石雕作品。

People think that creative ideas are like these light bulb moments that happen when you're in the shower, where it's really like a stone sculpture.

你一直在不断雕琢、不断打磨。

You're constantly just chipping away and refining.

Take Two Interactive的首席执行官斯特劳斯·泽尔尼克，以及我们自己的首席业务官丽莎·科菲。

Take Two Interactive CEO, Strauss Zelnick, and our own chief business officer, Lisa Coffey.

在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcast或您收听播客的任何平台收听《数学与魔法》。

Listen to Math and Magic on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

接下来是海瑟为您带来的天气预报。

And here's Heather with the weather.

外面天气真好，阳光明媚，气温75度，树荫下还有点凉意。

Well, it's beautiful out there, sunny and 75, almost a little chilly in the shade.

现在我们来检查一下车内的温度。

Now let's get a read on the inside of your car.

车内很热。

It is hot.

你才停了短短一会儿，车内温度就已经达到99度了。

You've only been parked a short time, and it's already 99 degrees in there.

办事时请不要把孩子留在后座上。

Let's not leave children in the back seat while running errands.

只需几分钟，他们的体温就会急剧上升，这可能是致命的。

It only takes a few minutes for their body temperatures to rise, and that could be fatal.

汽车升温很快，可能致命。

Cars get hot fast and can be deadly.

绝不要把孩子单独留在车内。

Never leave a child in a car.

本提示由美国国家公路交通安全管理局和广告委员会联合发布。

A message from NHTSA and the ad council.

在纸面上，尼克、迪克和保罗节目的三位主持人都是天才。

On paper, the three hosts of the Nick, Dick, and Paul show are geniuses.

我们可以解释人工智能和数据中心的工作原理，但有些事情我们并不一定理解。

We can explain how AI works, data centers, but there are certain things that we don't necessarily understand.

更好的版本是：玩愚蠢的游戏，赢愚蠢的奖品。

Better version of play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

顺便说一下，第一个说这句话的并不是泰勒·斯威夫特。

Which which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift who said that for the first time.

我其实以为是她。

I actually I thought it was.

我弄错了。

I got that wrong.

不过嘛，人无完人嘛。

But, hey, no one's perfect.

但我们已经差不多够完美啦。

We're pretty close, though.

欢迎在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客，或是你常用的任何播客平台收听《尼克、迪克和保罗秀》。

Listen to the Nick, Dick, and Paul show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

这一季我们一起走过了很长的路。

We've come a very long way together this season.

罗尔德经历了太多波折。

Roald has gone through a lot.

而当你回顾我们做过的所有节目，梳理达尔人生的各个阶段时，确实会发现一条清晰的脉络。

And when you look back at all of our episodes, all the different stages of Dahl's life, a pattern does begin to emerge.

我觉得达尔的一生，和我们很多人一样，都在追寻真正的自我，寻找自己的归宿。

I think Dahl's entire life, like for so many of us, was about a search for who he really was and where he belonged.

仔细想想的话，这或许也是理解他作品的关键。

And when you really think about it, that may also be the key to understanding his work.

《玛蒂尔达》完全关于她对自我身份的探索。

Matilda is entirely about her search for identity.

查理、詹姆斯、索菲以及许多其他角色也是如此。

The same could be said about Charlie and about James and Sophie and so many of the others.

而到了故事结尾，他们所有人都发现，真正的自我并非源于迎合他人的期望，而是源于拥抱那些使自己与众不同的特质。

And what they all seem to figure out by story's end is that their true selves come to fruition not from conforming to other people's expectations, but from embracing the thing that makes them unique.

正如我们所听到的，这正是达尔在自己生活中所发现的。

Which, as we've heard, is also exactly what Dahl discovered in his own life.

但他必须尝试过各种不同的面具、各种不同的人设，才能抵达这一境地。

But it took him trying on all these different masks, all these different personas, in order to get there.

他曾是充满雄心的年轻商人，在壳牌石油公司工作；曾是战争中勇敢的战斗机飞行员；曾是华盛顿和纽约的花花公子间谍；曾是洛杉矶心怀不满的编剧；曾是优雅成熟的作家，在《纽约客》上发表作品；最终，他成为享誉世界的儿童文学作家，为弱者发声，用恶作剧作为武器，同时表达的观点甚至可能让他成为自己故事中的反派。

He was the ambitious young businessman with Shell Oil, the courageous fighter pilot in the war, a playboy spy in DC in New York, a disgruntled screenwriter in LA, an urbane, sophisticated author publishing in The New Yorker, and finally, the world famous children's author who championed the underdog and weaponized mischief while espousing views that could have made him an antagonist in one of his own stories.

我是艾伦·特雷西，为My Heart Podcasts、Imagine Entertainment和Parallax制作，这是《罗尔德·达尔的隐秘世界》第十集。

For My Heart Podcasts, Imagine Entertainment, and Parallax, I'm Aaron Tracy, and this is The SecretWorld of Roald Dahl, episode 10.

那么，达尔人生中的这些阶段是否都是他成长过程中所必需的？

So were each of these stages necessary in Dahl's evolution?

当然，这些经历都让他度过了自己世纪中最宏大、最喧闹的人生之一。

Certainly, they all contributed to him living one of the biggest, noisiest lives of his century.

但我想弄清楚的是，这对一个作家来说是否必要，甚至有益。

But I guess what I'm trying to figure out is if that's necessary or even advantageous for a writer.

我想请杰西·斯特恩来谈谈这个问题。

I want to bring in Jesse Stern on this question.

杰西可能是我合作过的最出色的电视编剧，他擅长创作像CBS剧集《海军罪案调查处》或电子游戏《使命召唤：现代战争》这样的全球爆款作品。

Jesse is maybe the best TV writer I've ever worked with, and he has a knack for writing these massive global hits, like the CBS show NCIS or the video game Call of Modern Warfare.

过去一年里，他还一直在研究达尓那一代的作家海明威和塞林格，为他正在撰写的项目做准备。

He's also spent the last year studying Hemingway and Salinger, authors of Dahl's Generation, for a project that he's writing.

我向杰西询问了这些作家外出体验世界、经历宏大冒险的重要性。

I asked Jesse about the importance to these writers of going out, experiencing the world, and having big adventures.

顺便说一句，这个主题杰西也深深融入了自己的生活中。

By the way, it's a theme Jesse very much incorporates into his own life.

当我此刻穿着浴袍坐在布鲁克林的家中时，我是在伊比萨岛北部的圣欧拉利亚找到了正在那里生活的杰西。

While I'm sitting in my bathrobe at home in Brooklyn right now, I caught up with Jesse where he's living these days in Santa Eulalia in the North Of Ibiza.

对我来说，重要的不是冒险本身，而是你必须经历一些不适。

It's not so much to me the adventure as it is, you know, you have to get some discomfort.

你必须踏入未知的领域。

You have to get into the unknown.

你很容易会说服自己，已经对这个世界有足够的了解了，但我认为在探索外在世界和探索内在世界之间找到平衡至关重要。

It becomes really easy to convince yourself that you have enough exposure to the universe already, and I think it's crucial to find a balance between those two things, exploring outer space and exploring inner space.

我对海明威和J.D.斯塔拉彻之间的关系着迷不已，这两个人都曾走遍世界，但一个决定：我已经受够了，我要余生都躲在后院的掩体里，探索自己内心的深处；而另一个则几乎每天都在钓鱼、划船、打猎。

I got so fascinated between the relationship between Hemingway and JD Stallacher, two guys who definitely saw the world and one decided I had enough of it, and I'm gonna spend the rest of my life in a bunker in my yard exploring the in their reaches of my own mind, and another who basically spent every day fishing, boating, fighting Hunting.

如果能走路，他就走路。

Walking if he could.

当你进入一个新环境，来到一个你从未去过的地方时，它会揭示出你过往经历中各种不同的侧面。

You When you get into a new environment, you get into a place you've never been before, it exposes all these different sides about the experiences that you've had.

它让你意识到，你一直视作理所当然的那些东西。

It shows you all these things that you've been taking for granted.

它让你发现，那些你以为是不可或缺、至关重要的东西，其实还有别的做法。

It shows you things that you thought were load bearing and essential that, Oh, there's other ways of doing that.

还有其他存在的方式。

There's other ways of being.

而且它也促使你拓展对自己能力的认知，进而拓展对他人能力的认知。

And also it pushes you to expand your own consciousness of what you're capable of, and in that, what anybody is capable of.

我认为这不仅拓宽了想象力，也增强了你的同理心。

And I think that that broadens not just the imagination, but your sense of empathy.

因为当你阅读这些关于伟大英雄、领袖或冒险家的故事时，总有一种感觉，觉得他们所做到的事是不可能的。

Because when you read these stories of great heroes or great leaders or great adventurers throughout time, there's a certain aspect to it that feels impossible.

感觉就像是，他们是怎么做到的？

That feels like, how did they do that?

当你稍微接触一下过程，比如攀登一座山，即使不是最高的山，你也会开始了解登顶需要什么、坚持向上需要什么、登顶时的感受，以及下山的经历。

And when you have just a little bit of exposure to process, the process of climbing a mountain, even if it's not the biggest mountain, you start to learn a little bit about what it takes to go up, what it takes to keep going up, what it feels like to get to the top, and the experience of coming down.

你就能找到一种方式，让自己与那些看似不可能的历史人物产生更多共鸣。

And you get to find a way that you can relate a little bit more to kind of impossible porous historical figures.

这有助于你，我认为，理解人类所能达到的境界，以及他们如何一步一个脚印地实现那些最了不起的成就。

And it helps you, I think, to get into the mindset of what human beings are capable of and how and how they do it one step at a time, even in the most incredible achievements.

我认为在达尔的处境中，有一种必然性。

I think in Dahl's situation, there's an aspect of necessity.

他不仅仅是在追求冒险。

He's not just pursuing adventures.

这些都是至关重要的事情。

These are things that were essential.

成为一名飞行员、加入皇家空军、参战，都是必不可少的。

Becoming a pilot, joining RAF, fighting in the war, it was essential.

在1940年的英国，一个24岁的男人几乎没有选择的余地。

There was really not much in the way of choice given to a 24 year old man in England in 1940.

必须如此。

Had to.

这关乎生存，这就更令人愤慨了——他竟然无法对以色列人产生任何同情。

It was a matter of survival, which makes it even more infuriating that he can't find some form of empathy with the Israelis.

我想他只是不承认那个地方也在为生存而战。

I guess he just doesn't acknowledge that that place also fights for its survival.

你知道，后来他为儿子发明东西，那也是出于必要。

Know, and then talking about the the invention for his son, again, that was out of necessity.

并不是他某天突然决定要成为一名医学发明家。

Wasn't that he just, you know, decided one day to become a medical inventor.

托马斯·杰斐逊也是这样。

Thomas Jefferson was the same way.

你知道的吧？

You know?

他总是能找到解决方案，富有创意地应对身边的问题，无论是自己制作小提琴、在蒙蒂塞洛设计口袋门，还是撰写相当出色的文件。

He would just find solutions, creative solutions, the challenges that surrounded him, whether it was building his own violin or designing pocket doors in Monticello or writing pretty decent documents.

我们稍后会再回到杰西的话题。

We're gonna come back to Jesse.

但在那之前，我想谈谈达尔回写他那些相当出色作品的地点和方式。

But first, I wanna talk a little bit about where and how Dahl wrote his own pretty decent documents.

因为正是这些作品，才让我们对达利的冒险经历感兴趣。

Because they're the only reason we care at all about the adventures Dahl had.

对吧？

Right?

达爾的写作过程让我着迷。

Dahl's writing process is completely fascinating to me.

一个曾经在战争中驾驶战机、在华盛顿从事间谍活动的人，是怎么做到能安静地坐在房间里多年，写出大量作品的？

How did a guy who was used to flying aerial battles in the war and playing spy games in DC, how did that same guy find the ability to sit quietly in a room for years on end and produce mountains of writing?

这是达爾在1988年——他去世前两年——为兰登书屋《作者之眼》视频中的片段。

Here's Dahl in a Random House video, The Author's Eye, from 1988, two years before his death.

他给出了我听过的关于写作过程最贴切的比喻。

He gives maybe the best analogy for the writing process that I've ever heard.

写作时，就像穿越山谷和山丘进行一次漫长的徒步，你先看到眼前的景象，就把它写下来。

When you're writing, it's rather like going on a very long walk across valleys and mountains and things, and you get the first view of of what you see and you write it down.

然后你再往前走一段，或许登上一座山丘，俯瞰到不同的景色，于是又把它记下来。

Then you walk a bit further, maybe up onto the top of a hill and you look down and you see something else, and you write that.

就这样日复一日，你不断看到同一片风景的不同角度，却很少重复。

And you go on like that day after day, getting different views of the same landscape, rarely.

而这次旅程中最高的山峰显然是书的结尾，因为当一切最终汇聚时，那里必须是最佳的视角——你可以回望自己所做的一切，发现所有线索都完美串联。

And the the highest mountain on the walk is obviously the end of the book because it's got to be the best view of all when everything comes together, you can look back and see everything you've done, and it all ties up.

但这是一个非常漫长而缓慢的过程。

But it's a very, very long, slow process.

这难道不是很棒吗？

How great is that?

它在揭示写作行为中的诗意方面，完全可以与安妮·拉莫特的《鸟鸟》一较高下。

It really gives Anne Lamott's Bird by Bird a run for its money in terms of finding the poetry in the act of writing.

写作生活显然是达尔回想很多的主题。

The writing life is clearly a subject Dahl thinks about a lot.

他许多最著名的作品，某种程度上都是对作家身份的延伸隐喻。

Many of his most celebrated books are sort of extended metaphors for what it means to be a writer.

比如我最喜欢的达尓成人作品《亨利·苏尔》，我们在上一期节目中讨论过。

Like my favorite of Dahl's adult works, the wonderful story of Henry Sugar, which we talked about last episode.

这个故事可能是达希尔为自己的作家人生所照出的最深刻的镜子。

That story is maybe the most revealing mirror Dahl ever held up to his life as a writer.

表面上，这个故事讲述了一位富有的自恋者，通过冥想技巧学会了真正看穿扑克牌的背面。

On the surface, it's about a wealthy narcissist who discovers a way to literally see through the backs of playing cards using meditation techniques.

但抛开魔幻现实主义的外衣，这其实是一个人日复一日、年复一年把自己封闭起来，以苦行僧般的专注追求一项技能的故事。

But strip away the magical realism, and it's about a man who locks himself away day after day, year after year, pursuing a single skill with monastic devotion.

这正像达尔从事写作的方式。

Just like Dahl did with his writing.

学会看穿扑克牌，只是学会写好文章的一种更具戏剧性的版本。

Learning to see through playing cards is just a more dramatically interesting version of learning to write well.

而这种练习彻底改变了亨利·西格尔。

And the practice completely changes Henry Sugar.

他变得更有爱心、更开明、更优秀，我认为这或许正是达尔希望写作生活能为他带来的改变。

It makes him a more generous, more enlightened, better man, which I think is probably what Dahl hoped the writing life would do for him.

一旦达尔在四十多岁时决定将一生奉献给写作，他的日常便如同亨利·西格尔一样，变成了一种近乎宗教仪式的规律。

Once Dahl decided to devote his life to his craft in his late forties, his routine, like Henry Sugar's, became one of almost religious ritual.

这是达尔在第一本自传《男孩》中，谈论选择作家生涯所面临的挑战时说的话，我们像之前几集一样还原了他的语气。

Here's Dahl in his first memoir, Boy, discussing the challenges of choosing life as a writer, recreating his voice as we did in previous episodes.

与商人相比，作家的生活简直是地狱。

The life of a writer is absolute hell compared with the life of a businessman.

作家必须强迫自己工作。

The writer has to force himself to work.

他得自己安排时间，如果他根本不碰书桌，也没人会责备他。

He has to make his own hours, and if he doesn't go to his desk at all, there is nobody to scold him.

如果他是小说家，他就活在恐惧之中。

If he is a writer of fiction, he lives in a world of fear.

每一天都需要新的创意，而他永远无法确定自己是否能想出来。

Each new day demands new ideas, and he can never be sure whether he's going to come up with them or not.

写两小时的小说就让这位作家彻底精疲力尽。

Two hours of writing fiction leaves this particular writer absolutely drained.

在这两小时里，他早已神游千里。

For those two hours, he has been miles away.

他身处另一个世界，与完全不同的陌生人相伴，而要重新回到现实环境，需要付出巨大的努力。

He has been somewhere else in a different place with totally different people, and the effort of swimming back into the normal surroundings is very great.

这几乎是一种震撼。

It is almost a shock.

作家从工作室走出来时恍恍惚惚。

The writer walks out of his workroom in a daze.

他想喝一杯。

He wants a drink.

他需要它。

He needs it.

事实上，世界上几乎每一位小说家喝的威士忌都超过了对身体有益的量。

It happens to be a fact that nearly every writer of fiction in the world drinks more whiskey than is good for him.

他这样做是为了给自己信心、希望和鼓励。

He does it to give himself faith, hope, and encourage.

一个人要是当作家，那就是个傻瓜。

A person is a fool to become a writer.

他唯一的补偿是绝对的自由。

His only compensation is absolute freedom.

他除了自己的灵魂外没有主人，我相信，这正是他如此做的原因。

He has no master except his own soul, and that, I'm sure, is why he does it.

我非常喜欢这一点。

I love that.

达尓成功地将独自在房间里写作的行为，描绘得如同他在非洲为壳牌石油工作、作为战斗机飞行员或间谍的生活一样残酷、恐怖且充满冒险。

Dahl manages to make the act of writing alone in a room just as brutal, terrifying, and filled with adventure as his life in Africa with Shell Oil, or as a fighter pilot, or as a spy.

但这一切都值得，因为写作带来了自由。

But it's all worth it because of the freedom it offers.

那么，让我们更多地谈谈达尓独特的主动写作方式。

So let's talk more about Dahl's particular active writing.

如果你问50位不同的作家他们的创作过程，你会得到50种不同的答案。

If you ask 50 different authors about their process, you'll get 50 different answers.

我真的很沉迷于这类内容。

I really can't get enough of this stuff.

托尼·吉尔罗伊，曾撰写《迈克尔·克莱顿》，并最近创作了《星球大战》系列《安多》，谈到他最初布置写作办公室时，让椅子面向窗外。

Tony Gilroy, who wrote Michael Clayton, and more recently created the Star Wars series Andor, talks about initially setting up his writing office so his chair faced outside.

但很快他就感觉自己的想法从窗户飞走了，于是不得不重新布置家具。

But it soon felt like his ideas were flying out the window, and he had to rearrange the furniture.

这是达爾在《Thrill Maker》中接受彼得·华莱士采访时，谈论自己的书房。

Here's Dahl in Thrill Maker, interviewed by Peter Wallace, speaking about his own office.

然后在10点半，我装满一保温瓶热咖啡，手里拿着一个杯子，走到我的写作小屋，它离房子很远，在苹果园里，离房子大约150米。

Then at 10:30, I fill a thermos with hot coffee and take a mug in my hand and walk up to my work hut, is away from the house, up in the apple orchard, about a 150 meters from the house.

这听起来能不理想吗？

Could that sound any more idyllic?

一个位于苹果园里的写作小屋？

A writing hut in an apple orchard?

对于经济宽裕的作家来说，拥有一个独立的工作室其实相当普遍。

A separate studio is actually pretty common among well-to-do writers.

达爾的小屋是仿照为诗人迪兰·托马斯建造的样式建成的。

Dahl's Hut was modeled on when built for the poet Dylan Thomas.

剧作家阿瑟·米勒在布鲁克林高地写了很多作品，但也常常逃到他在康涅狄格州房产上那间简陋的7英尺乘10英尺小屋中写作。

Playwright Arthur Miller wrote a lot in Brooklyn Heights, but also escaped to a sparse little seven by 10 foot hut on his property in Connecticut.

没有装饰，没有干扰。

No decoration, no distractions.

小说家菲利普·罗斯也为自己建了一间小屋，并设计了一个站立式讲台式的书桌，以便他能站着与自己的角色面对面交流。

The novelist Philip Roth also built himself a hut, and constructed it with a standing, lecturing like desk, so he could confront his characters on his feet, eye to eye.

弗吉尼亚·伍尔夫在萨塞克斯建造了一座小型花园小屋，也就是她著名的《自己的房间》。

Virginia Woolf built a small garden lodge in Sussex, her famous Room of One's Own.

托妮·莫里森将哈德逊河畔的一座船屋改造成自己的写作空间。

Toni Morrison transformed a boathouse on the Hudson River, in which to do her writing.

我录制这段内容时，正身处布鲁克林的家中，距离诺曼·梅勒写下他最著名作品的那栋褐色砂石屋仅隔两户。

As I record this, I'm in my house in Brooklyn, two doors down from the brownstone where Norman Mailer wrote his most famous books.

梅勒并没有真正的小屋，但他将自己家的顶层改造成办公室，让它看起来和感觉上都像一艘船，有着长长的船体和倾斜的带窗天花板，简直和你想象的一样疯狂。

Mailer didn't exactly have a hut, but he renovated the Top Floor of his house, his office, to look and feel exactly like a ship, with a long hull and slanted windowed ceilings, which is as crazy looking as you're imagining.

据说，梅勒害怕水，而整天待在像船一样的环境中迫使他直面自己的恐惧，我想这对他的写作有所帮助。

Apparently, Mailer was afraid of water, and working all day in what felt like a boat forced him to confront his fears, which I guess he found helpful in his writing.

约翰·契弗，这位被称作郊区的契诃夫的作家，可能创造了我所知的最超现实的办公室和晨间通勤方式。

John Cheever, the tortured Chekhov of the suburbs, created maybe the most surreal office and morning commute of any writer I can think of.

每天，契弗都会穿上西装打上领带，就像要去华尔街一样。

Every day, Cheever would put on a suit and tie, as if heading to Wall Street.

他会走出公寓，和别的上班族一起乘电梯下楼，但他会继续走过大堂，来到他大楼的地下室。

He'd exit his apartment, take the elevator down with the other commuters heading to work, but he'd continue past the lobby to the basement of his building.

他会打开一间小储藏室，脱掉衣服只穿内衣，整天坐在那里写作，周围都是管道和电气箱。

He'd unlock a small storage room, strip down to his underpants, and write all day, surrounded by pipes and electrical boxes.

写完后，他会重新穿上衣服，回到楼上。

When he was done, he'd get dressed and go back upstairs.

正如我所说，每位作家都有自己独特的方式。

Like I said, every writer does something unique.

这是达尔在《惊悚制造者》中再次描述他写作工作室内的布置。

Here's Dahl, again, from Thrill Maker, on his setup inside his writing studio.

我会走进这间很棒的房间，我真的很喜欢，因为它有一把特别舒适的扶手椅。

And I go into this splendid room, which I really enjoy because it's so comfortable as an armchair.

我不坐在书桌前写作。

I don't sit up at a desk.

我仰躺在扶手椅上。

I lie back in an armchair.

我把脚搁在一个箱子上，嗯。

And I put my feet up on a a trunk Mhmm.

我往箱子里塞满了木头，让它变硬。

Which I filled with wood to make it hard.

这个箱子用几段电线绑在椅子腿上，这样我就能像这样把脚搁在箱子上用力推，它也不会移开。

And the trunk is tied to the legs of the chair with bits of wire so that I can put my feet on the trunk like that and push, and it won't go away.

写作可能非常可怕。

Writing can be so scary.

仰躺着把脚抬高有助于放松。

Laying back with your feet up helps you relax.

音乐剧最伟大的作家斯蒂芬·桑德海姆，是躺在沙发上，手里拿着饮料写作的。

Stephen Sondheim, the greatest writer of musical theater, wrote while fully laying down on his couch with a drink in his hand.

《地狱之屋》等电视剧的杰出创作者大卫·米尔奇，会平躺在房车的地板上，口述所有剧本给助手。

David Milch, the brilliant creator of Deadwood and other TV shows, would lay with his back flat on the floor in his trailer and dictate all of his scripts to an assistant.

这是达尓在《Thrill Maker》节目中与彼得·华莱士的更多对话。

Here's more of Dahl with Peter Wallace on Thrill Maker.

于是我上去后，让自己完全放松下来，拿出我亲手制作的写字板，放在扶手椅的扶手上。

And so I get up there and I get really comfortable, and I take a writing board, which I've made myself, and I put it on the arms of the armchair.

在写字板下面，我放了一卷厚纸，让写字板恰好倾斜到我想要的角度。

And underneath it, I put a a roll of thick paper so the writing board slopes exactly where I want it.

我准备了六支铅笔，把它们都削好，给自己倒了一杯咖啡，感觉非常舒适。

And I have six pencils, and I sharpen them, and I pour myself a coffee, and I feel very comfortable.

只要有可能，达尓在写作时都不会回到主屋里。

Whenever possible, Dahl wouldn't go back into the main house during his writing sessions.

如果家里有人需要他，他们会从育儿室的开关处闪灯示意。

If someone in the house needed him, they would flash a lamp from a switch in the nursery.

闪一次灯表示有人找他，闪两次灯表示有紧急情况。

One flash meant someone was asking for him, and two flashes meant an emergency.

据作家巴里·法瑞尔说，灯光只有一次闪过两次，那就是奥利维亚去世的那天。

The only time the lights had ever flashed twice was the day Olivia died, according to writer Barry Farrell.

所有这些复杂的安排，当然都是为了帮助自己沉浸于写作之中，而这几乎是每个作家的目标——失去时间感，进入心流状态。

All of this elaborate setup, of course, is in service of trying to get lost in his writing, which is the goal of pretty much every writer, to lose time, to get into a flow state.

达爾也使用音乐来帮助自己达到这种状态。

Dahl also used music to try to get there.

以下是他在1979年英国长期广播节目《荒岛唱片》中的片段。

Here he is on the long running British radio show Desert Island Discs from 1979.

我从不在早上写作前先放一些非常伟大的音乐，比如贝多芬的弦乐四重奏，然后坐着聆听，希望这些伟大能感染我，让我写得更好。

I never used to start writing in the morning before putting on some very great music like a Beethoven quartet, and sit and listen to it in in the hopes that some of this greatness would rub off on me and that I would write better.

事实上，这确实很有帮助，因为听完伟大的音乐之后，你根本不可能写出垃圾文字。

As a matter of fact, it it helped quite a lot because it is impossible after listening to great music to write absolute rubbish.

你有没有演奏过

Do ever play

对作家来说，另一个最重要的决定是每次写作持续多长时间。

The other most important decision for a writer is how long a stretch to write for.

根据巴里·法瑞尔的说法，达爾几乎从不在晚上写作。

According to Barry Farrell again, Dahl rarely ever worked in the evening.

达尔的理想日程是上午十点到中午一 session，下午三点到六点再一 session。

Dahl's ideal schedule was a session from ten a.

点。

M.

上午十点到中午，下午三点到六点各安排一 session。

To noon in the morning, and another from three to six in the afternoon.

两次高效的工作时段，中间有充足的休息。

Two good stints with a solid break in between.

以下是达尔关于作家的视野的再次阐述。

Here's Dahl again on the author's eye.

最重要的是，永远不要连续工作太久，因为大约两小时后，你的专注力就不再处于巅峰状态，

The great thing, of course, is never to work for too long at a stretch, because after about two hours, you are not at your highest peak of concentration,

所以你得

so you have

停下来。

to stop.

当我刚开始当作家时，我会按照银行家的工作时间整天写作。

When I was trying to break in as a writer, I would write all day, banker's hours.

但随着时间推移，你会意识到那些小时中有很多都是浪费的。

But over time, you realize so many of those hours are just wasted.

关于这个话题，我最欣赏的思想家是奥利弗·伯克曼。

My favorite thinker on this subject is Oliver Berkman.

在他关于完成创造性工作需遵循三到四小时法则的论文中写道：你几乎不可能每天持续进行超过三到四小时、需要高度专注的脑力工作。

In his essay on the three or four hours rule for getting creative work done, he writes, you almost certainly can't consistently do the kind of work that demands serious mental focus for more than about three or four hours a day.

他继续写道：‘令人惊讶的是，这种三到四小时的模式在众多著名创意人士的日常习惯中频繁出现。’

He continues, quote, it's positively spooky how frequently this three to four hour range crops up in accounts of the habits of the famously creative.

查尔斯·达尔文在撰写进化论时，每天工作三个时段：两个九十分钟和一个一小时。

Charles Darwin, at work on the theory of evolution, toiled for two ninety minute periods and one one hour period per day.

托马斯·杰斐逊、查尔斯·狄更斯、弗吉尼亚·伍尔夫、英格玛·伯格曼，以及许多其他人，基本都遵循了同样的模式。

Thomas Jefferson, Charles Dickens, Virginia Woolf, Ingmar Bergman, and many more all basically followed suit.

这里的启示是：预留三到四小时不受打扰的专注时间，最好选在你精力最充沛的时候。

The lesson here is to ring fence three or four hours of undisturbed focus, ideally when your energy levels are highest.

只要专注于保护好这四个小时，至于一天中其余时间是否充满零散的混乱，伯克曼解释说，你不必担心。

Just focus on protecting four hours, and don't worry if the rest of the day is characterized by the usual scattered chaos, Berkman explains.

如果你每天都能坚持投入三到四个小时，你会惊讶于自己能完成多少工作，这正是达尔一贯的做法。

And you will be shocked at how much you get done if you just consistently put in three to four hours a day, which is precisely what Dahl always did.

现在让我们来看看，达尔精心设计的写作过程最终带来了什么成果。

Let's turn now to what Dahl's elaborately thought out writing process actually led to.

我想找一位能更具体谈谈这些书籍的人。

I wanna speak to someone who can talk a little more specifically about the books.

因为这才是达尔的遗产。

Because that's Dahl's legacy.

对吧？

Right?

尽管达尔的人生充满魅力，电影和电视改编也取得了巨大成功，关于他涉嫌反犹主义的争议也早已屡见不鲜，但如果一百年后人们仍在谈论罗尔德·达尔，那一定是因为他的书籍。

As fascinating as Dahl's life was, as successful as the film and TV adaptations have been, and as much ink has been spilled on the charges of antisemitism, if people are still thinking about Roald Dahl a hundred years from now, it will be because of the books.

我的名字是马克·韦斯特。

Well, my name is Mark West.

我是北卡罗来纳大学夏洛特分校的英语教授。

I'm an English professor at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte.

我的专业是儿童文学、青少年文学以及童年史。

And my specialty is children's literature, young adult literature, and the history of childhood.

马克是这一领域的世界顶级专家之一。

Mark is one of the world's experts on this subject.

我请他先谈谈达尓是如何彻底改变儿童文学格局的。

I asked him to start off by talking a little bit about how exactly Dahl changed the landscape of children's literature.

但当他于1961年以儿童作家身份登场时，20世纪50年代及之前的儿童读物通常都是作者努力确保‘对儿童有益’的书籍。

But when he came on the scene as a children's author in 1961, children's books during that 1950s time period and before tended to be books that authors tried to make sure were, quote, unquote, good for children.

它们或许没有明确的道德说教，但至少是正派的。

They had a if not a moral message, they were upstanding in a way.

罗尔德·达尔为儿童文学领域带来的一大改变是，他致力于创作能迎合儿童幽默感和他们看待世界方式的书籍，而这种方式与成年人的视角有所不同。

One of the things that Roald Dahl brought to the whole children's literature scene was he was trying to write children's books that appealed to children's sense of humor and the way they look at things, which is somewhat different from the way in which adults look at things.

他并不想说教。

He was not interested in being preachy.

他的书没有任何道德说教或灌输的成分。

There's nothing moralistic or didactic about his books.

但他作品中贯穿始终的幽默感，正是孩子们

But his sense of humor that runs through so many of his children's books is the kind of humor that children

喜欢的，

have,

但有些成年人却觉得难以接受。

but the kind of humor that some adults find off putting.

他们觉得这种幽默有点粗俗。

They find it a little crude in a way.

他有时被指责打破禁忌，某种程度上迎合了孩子们觉得好笑的事物，比如那些有点恶心的东西。

Sometimes he's accused of breaking taboos, and in some ways, playing into the things the kids find funny, such as things that are kind of gross in a way.

儿童文学界存在着一种奇特的矛盾。

There's a real odd discrepancy in the world of children's literature.

许多获奖的儿童读物，成年人并不喜欢，但孩子们也未必特别钟爱。

A lot of the award winning children's books aren't books that adults like, but kids sometimes don't like as much.

相反，许多孩子们非常喜欢的畅销书，有时却并不是成年人喜欢的书。

Conversely, a lot of the books that are really best selling books that kids love are not sometimes the books that adults love.

成年人喜欢儿童书籍的原因与孩子们有所不同。

Adults like kids' books for a somewhat different reason than kids do.

成年人并不太愿意读儿童书籍，包括我自己在内，都会寻找那些能唤起怀旧感的书，那种童年的纯真和美好往昔的感觉。

Adults don't like to read children's books, and there are lots, including me, look for books that kind of bring them back to that sense of nostalgia, the childhood innocence, the sense of the good old days.

但孩子们看待世界的方式并非如此。

But kids don't look at the world that way.

孩子们从不会对童年感到怀念。

Kids are never nostalgic about childhood.

他们总是准备好稍微突破一下界限。

They're always ready to kinda push the envelope a little bit.

罗尔德·达尔在他的书中刻意放大了孩子与成人之间这种略带对抗的关系。

One of the things that Roald Dahl did in his books is he kind of played up this slightly adversarial relationship between kids and adults.

制造对抗关系当然是达尔个人生活中一个主要的主题。

Creating adversarial relationships is, of course, a major theme in Dahl's personal life too.

马克在达尓去世前不久确实与他共度了一段时间。

Mark actually got to spend some time with Dahl not long before Dahl's death.

他问达尓，他是如何为随后儿童文学的爆发铺平道路的。

He asked Dahl about paving the way for the explosion of children's lit that came in his wake.

当我们谈论为孩子写作时，他告诉我一件事：有时候，孩子们把成年人视为敌人。

One of the things that he said to me when we were talking about writing for kids is he said, well, the kids sometimes see adults as the enemy.

他的意思是，某种程度上，孩子们认为成年人是高大、有权势的人，试图让他们变得文明。

And by that, he meant that he thought that in some ways, kids think of adults as these big people, powerful people who are trying to civilize them.

但某种程度上，孩子们并不想被文明化。

But in some ways, kids don't wanna be civilized.

某种程度上，这与西格蒙德·弗洛伊德那句著名的话一致：文明即不满。

In some ways, that famous line from Sigmund Freud, civilization is discontent.

某种程度上，孩子们正是这种不满的一部分。

Well, in some ways, kids are part of that discontent business.

某种程度上，孩子们并不情愿被文明化。

In some ways, kids are reluctant to be civilized.

你能从儿童的幽默感中看到这种表现。

And you see that play out in children's sense of humor.

当达尓凭借《詹姆斯与大仙桃》取得成功，随后是《查理和巧克力工厂》以及之后的其他作品时，他为其他儿童作家打开了大门，让他们能够创作出更贴近儿童趣味而非成人口味的儿童读物。

So when Dahl became successful, first with James and the Giant Peach and then Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and then the other books that came after that, he kind of opened up the door for other children's authors to write children's books that really appeal to children's tastes rather than the tastes of adults.

但当然，几乎没有其他儿童作家能取得接近达尓那样的商业或评论界成功。

But, of course, very few other children's authors ever achieved anything close to Dahl's commercial or critical success.

当《卫报》发布有史以来百大最佳小说榜单（并非仅限儿童小说，而是所有小说）时，达尓的《好心眼儿巨人》位列第88名，仅略逊于索尔·贝娄和加西亚·马尔克斯的经典作品。

When The Guardian came out with his list of the 100 best novels ever, not children's novels, just novels, Dahl's The BFG came in at number 88, only a little bit behind classics by Saul Bello and Gabriel Garcia Marquez.

我问马克，达尓的作品随着时间推移是如何演变的，尤其是他的角色发生了怎样的变化。

I asked Mark how Dahl's work evolved over time, and especially how his characters changed.

你会看到一种演变过程。

You'll see a progression.

我认为这一演变过程中一个有趣的地方是，你将发现儿童主角——尤其是核心角色——逐渐获得了越来越多的自主性。

And one of the things that I think is interesting about that progression is you'll see child characters, the central characters, getting more and more agency.

在《詹姆斯与大仙桃》和《查理和巧克力工厂》等早期儿童读物中，你看到的是极具想象力的情节和非常巧妙的文笔。

So in the very first children's books like James and the Giant Peach and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, you have really imaginative situations, very clever writing.

但主角们基本上是被动的。

But the central characters, they're kind of passive.

事情发生在他们身上。

Things happen to them.

事情发生在詹姆斯身上。

Things happen to James.

事情发生在查理身上。

Things happen to Charlie.

他们是好孩子，但在故事情节中并没有主动采取太多行动。

And they're good kids, but they're not really taking a lot of action in the context of the plots.

但随着你逐步推进，到了《玛蒂尔达》，玛蒂尔达就拥有极强的主动性。

But as you work your way up, ending up with Matilda, Matilda has so much agency.

在某些方面，玛蒂尔达在与成人角色的互动中所拥有的力量甚至超过了成人本身。

In some ways, Matilda actually has more power in terms of her interactions with adult characters than the adults do.

她智胜了成年人。

She outwits the adults.

她智胜了管理学校的老师。

She outwits the teacher who runs the school.

她比她的父母聪明得多，尽管她的父母自认为非常聪明之类的。

She is much more clever than her parents, even though her parents think of themselves as being very smart and whatnot.

玛蒂尔达比他们聪明多了。

Matilda is much smarter than they are.

所以我认为罗尔德·达尔展示了一点：儿童文学可以拥有真正产生影响、拥有能动性、能够做出重要决定或智胜成人的孩子角色。

So that was something that I think Roald Dahl showed, that children's books can have characters where the kids really make a difference, where they have agency, where they can make decisions that matter, or they can outwit adults.

在这方面，我认为他和马克·吐温有些相似。

And that way, I think he's sort of similar to Mark Twain.

在我看来，马克·吐温和罗尔德·达尔之间有很多联系。

There's a lot of connections between Mark Twain and Roald Dahl, in my opinion.

但我觉得，罗尔德·达尔向我们展示了令人同情、能够产生影响的儿童角色。

But I think that for Roald Dahl, you showed us child characters that you can root for and that make a difference.

而且你确实看到这种模式在另一部非常受欢迎的系列中得到了体现，我认为这部系列与罗尔德·达尔有联系，那就是《哈利·波特》系列——在《哈利·波特》书中，哈利、赫敏和其他孩子们在某些方面比成年人更有能动性，能做些成年人做不到的事情。

And you see that actually play itself out in another really popular series that I think has connections to Roald Dahl, and that is the Harry Potter series where Harry and Hermione and and the other kids in the Harry Potter books have, in some ways, more agency or able to do things that the adults are not able to do.

在某些方面，孩子们能够解决那些周围有天赋的成年人无法解决的问题。

In some ways, the kids are able to solve problems that the powerful gifted adults around them are not able to solve.

因此，某种程度上，你在哈利·波特这样的角色身上看到的主动性，可以追溯到罗尔德·达尔儿童读物中的一些角色。

So in some ways, the agency that you see with a character like Harry Potter, I think, goes back to some of the characters that you would see in some of Roald Dahl's children's books.

你好。

Hi.

我是亚历克·鲍德温。

It's Alec Baldwin.

在这个季节的我的播客中，是这样的。

This season on my podcast, here's the thing.

我正在与更多艺术家、政策制定者和表演者交谈，比如作曲家马克·沙曼。

I'm speaking with more artists, policymakers, and performers like composer Mark Shaman.

一旦你证明了自己有才华，关键就在于相处。

Once you've established that you have the talent, it's about the hang.

和你身边的人相处的快乐。

It's the pleasure of hanging out with the people that you're with.

你知道，我和罗布总是相处得特别愉快。

You know, Rob and I was always a great hang.

我们会坐在小房间里聊上几个小时，然后才慢慢谈到音乐。

We would sit in kibbets for hours and then eventually get around to the music.

当我想到他时，我最常想起的就是我们一起大笑的时光。

That's what I mostly think of when I think of him, the time together laughing.

律师罗比·卡普兰。

Lawyer Robbie Kaplan.

这

The

当律师的最大馈赠

great gift of being a lawyer

是真正能够以一种

is the ability to actually change things in our society in a

很少有人能做到的方式改变我们的社会。

way that very few people can.

我的意思是，如果你能为美国的某些事业带来合适的契机，你真的可以产生重大影响。

I mean, you can really make a difference to causes in The United States if you bring

在正确的时间提出正确的案件。

the right case at the right time

还有婚姻平权。

and Marriage equality.

是的。

Yeah.

温莎案就是完美的例子。

Windsor's the perfect example.

还有记者克里斯·惠普尔。

And journalist Chris Whipple.

每一位白宫工作人员都在一个被称为西翼的封闭环境中工作，而在特朗普政府时期，这种封闭感更是成倍加剧。

Every White House staffer, they work in a bubble called the West Wing, and it's exponentially more so in the Trump White House.

请在iHeartRadio应用或你收听播客的任何平台收听《这里的事情》的新一季。

Listen to the new season of Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

你有没有听过一个真实的故事，疯狂到让你立刻想告诉所有认识的人？

Have you ever heard a true story so crazy that you immediately think, I gotta tell everyone I know?

兴登堡号是一艘德国船只。

The Hindenburg is a German ship.

它是被击沉的吗？

Was was it sunk?

它确实坠毁了。

It did crash.

好吧。

Okay.

嘿。

So Hey.

这是埃德·赫尔姆斯。

It's Ed Helms.

在《Snafu》节目中，我会向我那些聪明又风趣的朋友讲述历史上最糟糕的失误故事。

And on Snafu, I tell my brilliant and funny friends stories about history's greatest screw ups.

这个月，我邀请了两位了不起的嘉宾——切尔西·哈ndler和亚当·斯科特，来听两个关于航空旅行严重失误的惊人历史故事。

This month, I've got incredible guests, Chelsea Handler and Adam Scott, on board to hear two totally insane tales from history about air travel gone wrong.

我每次坐飞机就只喝番茄汁。

All I do is drink tomato juice when I'm on flights.

这就是我的全部，就这些。

That's my that's that's it.

我什么都不想做别的。

I don't like doing anything else.

他们说，亚当·斯科特在我航班上，他一直不放下手里的东西，一直在跟空乘要更多的番茄汁。

They're like, Adam Scott's on my flight, and he won't put down he's like Just a gallon at the flight attendants about getting more tomato juice.

在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或你常用的任何播客平台收听《Snafu》。

Listen to snafu on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

你好。

Hi.

我是Bob Pittman，iHeartMedia的董事长兼首席执行官，我正在开启我的新播客《数学与魔术》的全新一季，讲述营销前沿的故事。

I'm Bob Pittman, chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia, and I'm kicking off a brand new season of my podcast, math and magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing.

《数学与魔法》带您深入了解最大企业和行业背后的故事，并分享营销领域最聪明头脑的见解。

Math and Magic takes you behind the scenes of the biggest businesses and industries while sharing insights from the smartest minds in marketing.

我正在与来自娱乐业、金融界以及其间各个领域的领导者对话。

I'm talking to leaders from the entertainment industry to finance and everywhere in between.

本季《数学与魔法》，我将对话液体死亡公司的首席执行官迈克·塞萨里奥、金融家兼公共卫生倡导者迈克·米尔肯。

This season of Math and Magic, I'm talking to CEO of Liquid Death, Mike Cesario, Financier and public health advocate, Mike Milken.

Take Two Interactive 的首席执行官斯特劳斯·泽尔尼克。

Take Two Interactive CEO, Strauss Zelnick.

如果你无法承担有意义的创意风险，因而不敢冒险犯下糟糕的创意错误，那么你就无法在这个行业里立足。

If you're unable to take meaningful creative risk and therefore run the risk of making horrible creative mistakes, then you can't play in this business.

芝麻街的首席执行官谢丽·韦斯顿，以及我们自己的首席业务官丽莎·科菲。

Sesame Street CEO, Sherry Weston, and our own chief business officer, Lisa Coffey.

让消费者感受到人类声音的价值，并确信背后有可靠的人类承诺，这才能让它脱颖而出。

Making consumers see the value of the human voice and to have that guaranteed human promise behind it really makes it rise to the top.

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或您收听播客的任何平台收听《数学与魔法》——来自营销前沿的故事。

Listen to Math and Magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

当你收听关于人工智能、科技和人类未来的播客时，主持人总是表现得好像他们什么都知道，是所有领域的专家。

When you listen to podcasts about AI and tech and the future of humanity, the hosts always act like they know what they're talking about, and they are experts at everything.

在《尼克·迪克和保罗秀》中，我们不怕犯错。

Here at the Nick Dick and Paul show, we're not afraid to make mistakes.

库格勒所做的那件事，我觉得非常独特

What Kugler did that I think was so unique

他是谁？

Who's he?

他是编剧兼导演。

He's the writer director.

你觉得他是谁？

Who who do you think he is?

我不知道。

I don't know.

你会见到，比如，总统吗？

You meet the, like, the president?