自恋性愤怒解析：羞耻、伤害与爆发原因

你好，罗斯，欢迎你。

Hello Ross, welcome.

很高兴你能来到这里，我非常期待和你聊聊自恋型暴怒与虐待相关的话题。

I'm glad you're here with us and I'm really looking forward to talking to you about narcissistic rage and abuse.

哎呀，我真的特别开心能来这儿，而且我尤其喜欢你这期播客的名字——《自恋解码器》。

Well, I am really, really pleased to be here, especially I love the title of your podcast, Narcissistic Decoder.

谢...

Thank I

曾在军事情报部门工作，和真正的专业解码员共事过。

was in military intelligence and worked with actual real decoders.

我当时只是一名摩尔斯电码截听员，但我非常热爱这份工作。

I was just a Morse code interceptor, but I love it.

有意思。

Interesting.

在我们讨论自恋型暴怒之前，我觉得或许可以先退一步铺垫一下背景，因为我们得先弄明白这类爆发性的反应到底是什么样子的。

Well, before we talk about narcissistic rage, I think maybe we could take a step back and set the stage because we want to look at what those explosive reactions look like.

不过在聊这些之前，我知道你也写过一个概念，原话是‘自恋性创伤’。

But before we do that, I know you've also written about something, and I quote, narcissistic injury.

所以或许我们可以从这个话题切入。

So maybe that's a good place for us to start.

‘自恋性创伤’到底指什么，它又起着什么样的作用呢？

What role or what's meant, we could say, by narcissistic injury?

好的，要理解自恋性创伤，我得先往回梳理几步。

Okay, so understand narcissistic injury, I need to take a couple steps backwards.

所以你得先搞清楚这背后的理念，或者说它的起源是什么。

So you have to understand the ideology or the path where it started at all.

一个病态自恋者，也就是 narcissistic personality disorder（自恋型人格障碍）患者是如何走到这一步的？他们都曾经历过巨大的创伤，具体来说是依恋创伤，这类创伤会彻底击垮他们，在内心深处催生一股极其强烈的核心羞耻感；他们的大脑为了熬过这种痛苦，唯一的办法就是把这份羞耻感隔离起来，让它无法被意识触及，和那段伤害、虐待、匮乏的记忆一同封存进大脑的边缘系统里。

How does a pathological narcissist, someone with a narcissistic personality disorder get there and they have to undergo tremendous trauma, attachment trauma that is basically going to break them down and create this deep well of core shame that is so big that the only way that their brain can survive it is by coordinating it off, putting it offline, disassociating it, and placing the actual memories of that harm, that abuse, that deprivation in their limbic system.

所以这段记忆和情绪根本没法被主动调取出来。

So it's not accessible.

可一旦有人说他们不够优秀、指出他们犯了错，或是没能在他们需要的时候满足他们的要求——对，就是这种时候。

But when someone suggests that they're not good enough, they've made a mistake, or they don't give them what they want in the moments that they need it Yes.

他们会立刻产生类似触电般的反应，这种反应关联着那段关于自己曾遭受残酷对待的潜意识记忆，随后他们就会暴怒发作。

They have this immediate, almost electrical shock feedback that connects to the unconscious material of how horribly they were treated, and they respond with rage.

这份暴怒，源自如今那个认为自己有能力保护自己、为自己挺身而出的成年人格。

The rage is the adult who now feels that they can protect themselves and stand up for themselves.

经历自恋性创伤的自恋者爆发的暴怒，是被他们无法接纳、甚至无法直面的核心羞耻感所强化的；同时这份暴怒还源于一种执念：他们必须伤害、控制那个在他们看来伤害了自己的人。

The narcissist who has a narcissistic injury is expressing rage that is fortified and comes from core shame that they can't accept and ever know and this belief that they have to hurt, control the person that somehow is hurting them.

而且绝大多数时候，这种“被伤害”的处境根本就是他们臆想出来的。

And more often than not, it's made up.

这会引发羞耻感反应。

It's a shame response.

等等，我们来详细说说最后这个点。

Wait, let's dwell on that last point.

你刚才提到这是内心构建出来的状态。

So you said it's made up.

我对这部分内容非常感兴趣。

I'm very interested in that piece.

究竟什么是捏造的？

What's actually made up?

那是不是意味着他们并没有真正感到羞耻？

Does that mean they're not being shamed?

还是你有别的什么意思？

Or did you have something else in mind?

好的，我们来聊聊自恋型损伤这个概念，触发它的可能是一些非常无伤大雅的小事，比如你没对他们笑，或是没提到他们的名字；也可能是像骂他们是混蛋这类比较直接的行为。

Okay, so when we think of a narcissistic injury, it could be anything benign as not smiling, not mentioning their name, or it could be something like calling them a jerk.

但自恋损伤是一种对被感知为负面对待、不尊重、无视的情况所产生的反应。

But the narcissistic injury is a reaction to what is perceived as negative treatment, disrespect, disregard.

而这种反应会和那些被封存的潜意识内容产生联结，这些内容只会催生愤怒情绪。

And that connects to the unconscious material that is put away that only allows rage.

自恋者会将这种愤怒反应视作他们照顾自己、保护自己的能力体现。

The rage response, the anger response is what the narcissist believes is their ability to take care of themselves and protect themselves.

他们那时候根本做不到这一点——

They couldn't do it when

他们还是孩子的时候没办法做到。

they were children.

当你纠正一个自恋者，而他们因自恋创伤暴怒发作时，那正是曾经的那个孩子借由成年人的声音宣泄出那份愤怒。

When you correct a narcissist and they blow up with a narcissistic injury, that's the child that they once were that is expressing that rage through the adult's voice.

嘿，我们来聊聊这个话题，延伸讲讲吧。

Hey, let's play around with this.

我特别喜欢结合临床案例来讨论。

I love clinical examples.

我能不能跟你说件事？你刚说的话让我想起了一些东西，

Can I give you just, you reminded me of something?

就是当他们得不到自己预期的东西时的反应，我好多个月前做过几期关于弗兰克的播客，

When they don't get something that they're expecting, I did a podcast, a couple of podcasts many, many months ago on Frank.

弗兰克的事是这样的：我当时在听一位知名治疗师的播客，这位治疗师有一套完整的治疗模型，那位治疗师把弗兰克请到了自己的节目上，也有可能是弗兰克邀请他上了自己的节目，

Frank was, I was listening to another podcast of a famous therapist, right, who has a whole model of treatment and he had Frank on, or Frank had him on his show.

然后弗兰克讲了一件事：他当时在网上订购了日用品，还把自己整晚的时间都空出来，就为了在约定的那个时间签收这些日用品。

And Frank told a story where he ordered groceries and he set up his whole evening around accepting these groceries at a certain time.

结果那批生鲜杂货配送迟到了。

And the grocery delivery was late.

于是他开始来回踱步，让自己陷入了一种我们可以称之为愤怒的状态，对吧？

So he found himself pacing back and forth, getting himself into what we could call a rage, right?

他一直在咒骂，先是骂自己，骂自己怎么这么蠢，就一直在这儿等，配送时间还被一推再推，他本来可以把这段时间用来做更有意义的事的。

Like he's cursing, he's cursing first at himself, what an idiot you are, you just keep waiting, the delivery just keeps getting put off longer and longer, you could have been doing something more productive with your time.

不过他直到最后才提到这点，除此之外他还迁怒于配送员，一直在想她到底是怎么回事？

But he didn't mention this until the very end, but also at the delivery woman, right, what's wrong with her?

她为什么要让我等？

Why is she leaving me waiting?

诸如此类，等等等等。

Etcetera, etcetera.

有些情况下，自恋者会闪回——完完全全地闪回到他们曾经经历的、在心理上备受摧残的童年时期。

There are situations where the narcissist flashes back, literally flashes back to the childhood that they had, which they were crushed psychologically.

于是他们就会在情绪上被触发，生出愤怒、暴怒、怨恨、愤慨，继而发火。

And so they are triggered affectively, anger, rage, resentment, indignation, and they get angry.

但之后他们会开始回想起自己童年时期产生过的那些想法。

But then they start to remember the thoughts they had when they were a child.

我是个失败者。

I'm a loser.

没有人爱我。

No one loves me.

而这类（内心的）窗口在自恋者身上并不会经常开启。

And these windows don't open often with narcissists.

自恋者很少会主动敞开心扉。

They rarely open off with narcissists.

大多数时候，那扇心门都是紧闭的。

More often than not, that window is closed.

最后只会留下自恋型伤害。

And just get the narcissistic injury.

放到刚才说的这个人身上来看，他主观上感觉受到了极大的伤害。

So in the case of this person, he was so subjectively hurt.

这让他瞬间回溯到这份怒火的根源，那就是核心羞耻感。

It flashed him back to the origins of the rage, is the core shame.

对。

Yeah.

核心羞耻感是一种你从根本上就很差劲、有问题、不可爱、不值得被爱的信念。

Core shame is a belief that you are fundamentally bad, wrong, not likable, not lovable.

我在那些经历过自恋性创伤的人身上见过这种情况。

And I've seen this with people with narcissistic injuries.

我曾和他们处于同一段关系中，亲眼见过他们出现真正能和内心产生联结的时刻

I've been in relationships with them where they have this moment where they're actually connecting.

你几乎能从他们的脸上看出来，他们仿佛变回了当初那个年幼的孩子

Can almost see in their face, they're the little child again.

但那扇心窗会飞快地关上，根本敞开不了多久

But that window closes very It doesn't stay open long.

对部分自恋者来说，这样的时刻更是极为罕见

And for some nurses it's rare.

你得到的反而是伤害。

What you get instead is the injury.

是这样的，你伤害了我，现在我要伤害你，因为我是个成年人，我不能。

Is the, well, you hurt me, now I'm going to hurt you because I'm an adult and I can't.

等等，让我澄清一下这一点，因为你刚才说你经常得到的是伤害，但我觉得你描述的其实是——如果我理解错了请纠正我——你经常看到的是愤怒。

Wait, let me clarify that one point because you said what you often get is injury, but I think what you're describing is, and correct me if I'm off, is what you often get is the rage.

你看到的不是伤害本身，而是伤害的结果，没错。

Like you don't see the injury, you see the outcome of the injury, Exactly.

那就是

Which is the

很多心理现象都有专门的名称。

So there's a name for a lot of psychological phenomena.

我们把所谓的自恋性伤害称为自恋性伤害，这是一种由愤怒强化和驱动的伤害体验。

And so we call a narcissistic injury, what is commonly known as a narcissistic injury, is the experience of harm that is fortified and motivated by rage.

所以你实际上并没有真正感受到伤害。

So you're not really experiencing the injury.

你体会到的其实是‘对方会伤害你’的防御机制。

You're experiencing the defense mechanism of they'll hurt you.

那种伤害是在他们无意识的思维中本能地产生的。

The injury happens in their mind unconsciously, reflexively.

当某件事发生时——他们要么受到了评判，要么进行了自我评判，接着就会陷入某种让自己难受、觉得自己出错了、不对的状态里。

Something happens, they're either judged or they judge themselves, and then they go back and something makes them feel bad, mistaken, wrong.

而愤怒就是一种用来抵御……

And the rage is a defense to

保护。是的，好的。

protect Yes, okay.

但伤害本身是藏在幕后的。

But the injury is behind the scenes.

自恋者本身并不知道自己的自恋性伤害源于这个根源。

The narcissist doesn't know the narcissistic injury comes from that source.

对。

Yes.

他们唯一清楚的是，他们要伤害你，因为你让他们感觉不好了。

What they do know is they're going to hurt you because you made it feel bad.

除非是我刚才提到的那扇窗口敞开的例外情况。

Except in the cases when I said that window is open.

在那种情况下，他们确实能短暂地——就那么一瞬间——触及到曾经的那个自己内心的小孩。

They do, temporarily, it's a fleeting moment, can access that little child that they used to be.

所以，就我所知，自恋有很多不同的定义，它有不同的表现形式，也存在多种不同的定义。

So, one way that I, you know, are many different definitions, there are different presentations and different definitions of narcissism.

但我在自己的节目里经常谈到的一点是，正是那种浮夸的人格结构把他们的状态维系在了一起。

But one thing that I frequently talk about on my own show is that it's the grandiose structure that really holds them together.

对。

Yes.

我之前还在想——好的，请您讲讲。

I was wondering if Oh yeah, please tell me.

我想了解您对这一点的看法，以及这个结构是否在我们刚才讨论的那种反应中起到了作用。

I was wondering what your take on that was and if that plays a role in this reaction that we're seeing.

我们必须回过头来记住，自恋者以及你从行为层面观察到的那些反应，其源头另有他因。

We have to go back and just remember that the narcissist and what you're seeing behaviorally, behaviorally, reactively is coming from another source.

一个心智健康、懂得自爱之人，在面对失望时产生的反应，源自他们自童年起所有经历的总和，他们可能会保持耐心，也可能会感到受挫或是稍带怒气。

Someone who has good mental health, who loves themselves, and they have a reaction to disappointment, well that comes from the total, the sum total of all their experiences going all the way back to their childhood, and they might be patient, they might be frustrated or slightly angry.

这种反应完全可以追溯到这个人曾拥有的安全依恋关系——他们早已明白坏事不会总降临在自己身上。

Well that can be traced all the way back to someone that had a secure attachment, that learned that bad things don't happen all the time to them.

而自恋者则会被触发情绪：那种暴怒、想要惩罚他人的冲动，是他们用来处理童年过往经历的成年化应对方式，他们绝不会再容许自己被人随意摆布。

So a narcissist gets activated, the rage, the need to punish is their adult version to deal with what happened to them as a child, that they're not going to be pushed around.

所以那是愤怒的表现，但有时候他们还会表现出愤愤不平。

So that's the anger, but sometimes there's indignation.

而当我们聊到这种 entitlement（特权感）、浮夸自恋的特质时，你所看到的这些表现，其实都是他们对很久之前发生在自己身上的遭遇的反应。

And so when we're talking about the entitlement, the grandiosity, what you're dealing with is the reaction to what happened to them so long ago.

他们曾经感受糟透了，觉得自己被彻底忽视，还遭受过伤害、虐待和冷落。

They felt horrible, they felt invisible, they were hurt, abused, neglected.

所以他们作为年幼的孩子，为了活下来学会的唯一办法——这套方法一直延续到他们长大成人——就是封闭自己的内心，只靠自己来满足所有情绪需求，成为唯一能让自己感觉良好的人。

And so that the only way that they learned to survive as a little one, that eventually grew up to who they were, was to fold in on yourself and be the only person that's going to make you feel good.

这是自恋型人格障碍患者的一种生存机制：他们想方设法说服自己，自己不是一个糟糕的人，自己是优秀的，理应拥有一切。

That is a survival mechanism of a person with a narcissistic personality disorder is to somehow convince yourself that you're not this terrible person, that you're good and you deserve things.

而这种想法会以极度扭曲的形式，体现在他们的自大浮夸之中。

And that comes out just very distorted in the grandiosity.

对。

Yeah.

还有那种理所当然的 entitlement（ entitlement在该语境下指自恋者的特权感，此处翻译为“特权感”），这一切都是为了让自己自我感觉良好，但他们的内心深处其实对自己评价极低、痛苦不堪。

And the entitlement, it's all an attempt to make themselves feel good when down deep inside, they feel terrible about themselves.

说到那种浮夸自大的状态，我之前一直对这点很好奇，因为就拿我们现在聊的弗兰克的例子来说吧，他自己提到这件事的时候说‘我当时真是个狂妄的混蛋’，意思是他那会儿对着生鲜配送员怒火中烧，就想等她一送到就劈头盖脸骂一顿。

So the grandiosity, I was curious about this piece because this example that we're using of Frank, right, the way he introduces it, he says, what a grandiose prick I was, which means, I was so full of rage at this grocery delivery woman, you know, that I wanted to tear into her as soon as she arrived.

所以如果我们慢慢拆解这件事——我之所以能一眼看透，是因为我自己的咨询工作里经常遇到这类情况——就会发现，就像你刚才说的，这背后是一种理所应当的 entitlement（特权感），对吧？

So, when we unpack that slowly, and I know because I see this so frequently in my own practice, is what we hear is, to your word, a sense of entitlement, right?

这种特权感就是

Entitlement is

一种想要掌控一切的心态，所以他们才会被触发情绪。

a sense of domination, so they're activated.

所以，当某些事情触发了某种反应，激起了愤怒、怨恨时，这种激活会连接到潜意识中的东西。

So something happens that activates something, presses the button of anger, rage, resentment, That activation connects to what's unconscious.

那个受伤、破碎、被压垮、被忽视、被虐待的小孩。

That hurt, broken little child that was crushed, neglected, abused.

因此，当有人让他们感到挫败时，他们必须构建一个叙事，认为自己是受害者，而那个人活该受到伤害。

And so when someone is frustrating them, they have to come up with a narrative that they are the victim that person deserves to be hurt.

是的。

Yes.

因为这就是他们应对的方式。

Because that is how they coped.

dysfunctional地，作为孩子，他们从未得到过爱。

Dysfunctionally, As a child, there was no love.

他们从未得到过尊重。

There was no respect.

他们从未得到过温柔。

There was no tenderness.

没有任何养育。

There's no nurturing.

孩子在这种可怕的依恋环境中应对的方式，就是成为自己的一切，并保护自己。

The way the child coped in such a horrible attachment environment was to be all of everything to himself and to protect himself.

而他所拥有的，只有这些。

And all he has is that.

作为成年人，你拥有权力，你可以施虐，可以恐吓，可以切断与他人的联系，而这种反应——自恋受伤——正是他们为自己的扭曲思维找的借口。

And as an adult, you have power, you can be abusive, you can be intimidating, you can cut people off, and that reaction, the narcissistic injury, is how they justify their distorted thinking.

你怎么敢这么做？

How dare you do that?

你怎么能忽视我？

How could you ignore me?

你怎么能用如此平静的眼神看着我？

How could you look at me with such content?

是的，我的意思是，你才是那个坏人，让我来让你看看后果。

Yeah, I mean, you're the bad person and let me show you.

对，你怎么能让我等这么久呢？

Yeah, how could you keep me waiting like this?

所以对方就成了那个“坏”的存在——我用这个说法是源于客体关系理论，但他们就成了那个坏客体，

So then they become the bad, I use this word but I just think of object relations theory, but they become the bad object,

对吧？

right?

完全没错。

Absolutely.

所以所有不好的东西都归在他们身上了。

So everything bad is in them.

那个坏的客体和他们童年时遭受的伤害经历有着明确的关联。

That bad object is distinctly connected to their childhood experience of the harm that they endured.

所以他们对自己的成长经历、父母还有自己的成长环境满心都是怒火，这份怒火太过强烈，他们不得不切断自己和它的联结，和它割裂开来。

So they have so much rage about their upbringing, parents, the way they were brought up, so much rage that they have to disconnect it, they have to disassociate from it.

那股怒火实在太强烈了。

It's too big.

但当伤害发生时，这份伤害会激发出愤怒，而这份愤怒会被投射到另一个人身上——此时作为成年人的自恋者会认为自己无法掌控或伤害这个人。

But when you have the injury, the injury provokes the rage, the rage is projected onto the person who now as an adult, the narcissist believes he can't control or hurt.

对。

Yes.

这是他们保护自己的一种非常原始、且根本起不了作用的方式。

It's their very, very rudimentary and ineffective way of protecting themselves.

是的，而且在我看来，这甚至已经成了他们的一种生活方式。

Yeah, and a way of life, I would imagine too.

回到我之前提到过的一个点，我当时说，正是浮夸的心理结构维系住了自恋者的精神状态。

To go back to something I mentioned earlier when I said, it's the grandiose structure that holds the narcissist together.

他们原本就处在一种紧绷的状态里，因为他们理所当然地觉得，那个送货的女人肯定会准时出现。

They are already in a state because there's an expectation that that delivery woman is going to show up on time.

所有人都得围着他们转，随时为他们待命。

People will be there for them.

你看，要是那些人没到位、迟到了，或者就像你说的，没露出笑脸，或是出了任何一点岔子——虽说这种事一般不会发生，但只要发生了，就可能成为整座浮夸结构崩塌的开端。

See, and if they're not there, or they're running late, or to your point, they don't smile, or whatever it might be, that could be, see, doesn't happen though, but it could be the beginning of the collapse of the whole grandiose structure.

正如你之前所说，我们并不一定能看到这一点。

To your point earlier, we don't necessarily see that.

我们看到的是补偿性行为，也就是 narcissistic rage 的防御机制。

What we see is the compensatory movement, which would be the defense of, there's the narcissistic rage.

让我把这一切重新掌控起来。

Let me get this whole thing back under control.

我是那个强势的人，可以耀武扬威。

I'm the strong one to throw my weight around.

我是无所不能的人。

I'm the omnipotent one.

所以并没有受伤。

So there's no injury.

没有痛苦。

There's no pain.

那一刻没有任何伤害。

There's no hurt at that moment.

所以你真的得去设想一下。

So you literally have to imagine.

有时候我们很难想象，那个曾经的童年自我其实一直存在于他们的潜意识、下意识的思维里。

It's hard to imagine sometimes that the child that they used to be exists in their unconscious, subconscious mind.

那部分和他们的主观意识是相互割裂的。

It is disassociated from their awareness.

它被存放在边缘系统里，具体来说就是杏仁核当中。

It is placed in the limbic system, specifically the amygdala.

那种源于童年经历的可怕的愤怒、怒火与憎恨被他们压抑封存了起来。

That terrible rage, anger, hatred that was a consequence of their childhood, that was put away.

就像大脑处理创伤后应激障碍和其他创伤时的机制一样，大脑判定这些情绪过于沉重，无法在意识层面处理，所以必须将它们封存起来。

Because it's so the brain decides, just like with PTSD and other trauma, the brain decides this is too big to handle consciously, we've got to put it away.

之后他们带着极低的自尊成长，但由于自恋型人格障碍的代偿性特质，他们会说服自己是优秀的、出众的、值得被爱的、是完美无瑕的。

And they grow up with terrible self esteem, but because of the compensatory nature of narcissistic personality disorder, they convince themselves that they are good, better, lovable, without flaw.

这是他们唯一能安抚自己的方式。如果有人，无论是真实存在还是他们臆想出来的，伤害到了他们——这种情况在边缘型人格障碍患者身上也十分常见——那种受伤的感觉就会触发封存的怒火，进而通过某种方式宣泄出来。

That is the only way that they can soothe themselves To keep the So shame at if someone hurts them, whether real or imaginary, and this happens a lot with people with borderline personality disorder, that injury happens, it connects to the rage, and it's expressed through.

我们已经讨论过愤怒，但这种情绪也通过自大表现出来。

We already talked about a rage, but it's also expressed with grandiosity.

你怎么敢？

How dare you?

我就是这样的人。

I am this person.

没人能这样对待我。

No one treats me that way.

是的。

Yeah.

或者是一种特权感。

Or entitlement.

这是成人版本对那个无法保护自己的孩子的表达。

It is an expression of the adult version that they will have the child who couldn't protect themselves.

所以现在他们过度保护自己。

So now they hyper protect themselves.

他们对自己有多了不起有着一种极度膨胀的信念体系。

They had this hyper inflated belief system about how great they are.

这是他们应对和处理羞耻感的方式。

Is how they cope and how they manage that shame.

是的。

Yes.

但他们自己并不知道。

But they don't know it.

他们真的相信自己身上那种自大而应得一切的部分。

Actually believe in the grandiose entitlement parts of their self.

好吧，让我们先退一步，然后再向前推进。

Okay, let's step back and then push forward.

我想问你一个问题，不过我们先通过一点回顾来展开。

What I want to ask you, but we'll do this by way of a little bit of review.

到底在心理上发生了什么？

What exactly is happening psychologically?

所以这里出现了一个转变，对吧？

So we have a shift, right?

我们先是有了一个夸大的自我架构，然后出现了一个契机，就像你刚才提到的那个窗口——也就是受伤的时刻，或者说我们可以称之为脆弱性出现的瞬间。

We have a grandiose structure, we have a moment like that window that you mentioned of injury or what we could call vulnerability.

这种脆弱感会很快消失，而我们在表面上看到的外显表现就是愤怒。

It disappears very quickly, and what we see on the surface, the manifest presentation is one of rage.

但我想问问你，从心理学层面来说，这中间具体发生了什么？

But I want to ask you, what specifically is happening psychologically?

你刚才提到了一件事，我想接着这个话题聊下去。

You mentioned something a moment ago that I want to pick up on.

你提到了“投射”这个词，我想再深入了解一下，看看它在这整个互动模式里到底扮演了什么角色。

You mentioned the word projection, I wanted to go into that a little bit more to understand what role that plays in this whole dynamic.

你本身是直觉很强的人，尤其是如果你曾经是一个依赖型人格者，或是像我过去那样患有“缺爱症”，同时你又直觉敏锐、富有同理心，那你完全能读懂人们的面部情绪。

You're intuitive, and especially if you're a former codependent or someone who has Self- Love Deficit Disorder, which I had, and you're intuitive, and you're empathetic, you can read people's faces.

而当你和一个正处于好心情的自恋者相处时，你突然做了某件事惹恼了他们，而你本身又对他人的情绪变化十分敏感。

And when you're with a narcissist who's in a good mood, and all of a sudden you do something that upsets them, and you are tuned into affect.

‘情感表达’是一个心理学术语，指的是通过肢体神态外化表现出来的情绪。

Affect is the psychological term that it's emotions expressed physically.

然后突然间，他们的状态就会从开心骤变成怒不可遏、勃然大怒，情绪彻底崩盘。

And all of a sudden, their affect shifts from say happy to really angry, enraged, upset.

这种转变发生得特别快。

Is this immediate shift.

就像‘嘭’的一下，毫无预兆。

It's like, boom.

所以这又回到了原点：他们被触发了，感觉糟糕、尴尬、羞辱，无论这种感受是否合理。

So it goes back to they are activated, they feel bad, they feel embarrassed, they feel humiliated whether it's right or not.

这会激活他们的自恋创伤，最终以愤怒和受伤的情绪爆发出来。

And it activates the narcissistic injury, and it comes out with rage and hurt.

那我们聊聊投射这个概念，它是大脑为了帮他们撑过困境发展出的另一种防御机制。

So when we're talking about projection, projection is another defense mechanism that the brain allowed them to have to survive the problem.

毕竟他们曾经也只是无辜的小孩子，不该承受那样深重的伤害。

Because they're just innocent little kids who didn't deserve to be hurt as bad as they were.

当时没人保护他们，他们仅有的就是这些内在的心理防御机制，靠着这些策略扭转现实，让自己能相信一些正面的东西。

They had no one protecting them, all they had were these inner psychological defense mechanisms, strategies to somehow turn reality around to make them believe something positive.

所谓的投射，就是你把自身无法接受、超出了自己承受和接纳能力的特质，转嫁到别人身上——你会在别人身上看到这些特质，也就是把自己的情况映射到他人身上，但你自己对此毫无察觉。

So projection is when you attribute something about yourself that you cannot accept that's beyond your own acceptance or ability to accept onto someone else you see on others, you see yourself and others, but you don't know it.

所以一个会使用投射的自恋者，会对某个他认为自私、易怒、以自我为中心的人发火，他会在别人身上看到这些特质，然后变得怒不可遏。

So a narcissist who projects will get angry at someone who they believe is selfish, angry, who someone who is self centered, they will see it in other people and get very, very angry.

但实际上，他说的这些问题全都来自他自己。

And really what they're talking about is themselves.

举个例子，那个人可能是正在和我一起接受治疗的来访者的伴侣，这个伴侣开始学着设立边界，会说：‘那个，我想和我的女性朋友们一起出门，你一直都有空嘛。’

That person might be say they're on the partner who's in therapy with me, who's starting to set boundaries and says, well, you know, I want to go out with my girlfriends, you know, you always have time up.

这种自恋创伤会引发暴怒，而这时的防御机制就会启动投射——把问题都归咎到对方身上，指责对方‘你太自私了，你只以自我为中心，你心里就只有你自己’。

The injury connects to the rage and the part of the defense structure is now to project, is to put it on them, you are selfish, you are self centered, all you can think about yourself.

但其实这些话都是他们在说他们自己。

They're really talking about themselves.

是的。

Yes.

但在那一刻，这会给他们带来一种强大的感觉。

But it gives them in that moment this sense of strength.

记住，心理防御机制能带来释然感和力量感。

Remember, defense mechanisms provide feelings of relief and strength.

这些机制可能无法正常发挥作用，也可能并不健康，但这是自恋者处理如此强烈的羞耻感的唯一方式——把羞耻感转移到外界，归咎到别人身上。

They might not be functional, they might not be healthy, but it's the only way that the narcissist can manage that much shame is to make it put it outside of themselves onto other people.

我们之前也聊过另一种防御策略，就是去伤害那个你认为正在伤害你的人。

And we already talked about the other defense strategy is to hurt someone that you believe is hurting you.

投射是一种非常拙劣的保护自恋者的方式，而且遗憾的是，这种方式的效果并不理想。

Projection is a very faulty and unfortunately not very effective way to protect the narcissist.

关于这点我想补充几点。

So there's just a couple of points on that.

首先，我通常会把这些心理防御机制放在一个连续谱系里来看待。

So one is, I typically like to think of these defense mechanisms on a continuum.

其中有些防御机制是更原始的。

Some are more primitive.

我用‘原始’这个词并不是要贬低谁，只是和更高级的防御机制相比，这些防御机制对现实的支撑以及对人际关系的影响都更大。

I don't use the word primitive in a pejorative way, but they support reality and impact relationships more than higher level defenses.

而投射恰好属于我们所说的那种更原始的、早期的防御机制，也就是初级防御机制。

And projection happens to be one of the more, what we call primitive, early, this means early level defenses.

我不会用‘原始’来形容它，反而觉得它是一种很基础的反应，和童年时期经历过的愤怒与伤害有关。

Instead of primitive, I see it as basic that relates to the childhood experience of rage and harm.

就是基础的。

Basic.

有很多防御机制的原始程度要低很多。

A lot of defense mechanisms are less primitive.

它们会随着我们年龄的增长一同进化发展。

They're more they have evolved with us as we get older.

我们会学会应对现实、挫败感和愤怒情绪的方法。

We learn ways to cope with reality, with frustration, with anger.

但原始的防御机制，其根源其实都来自当事人的童年时期。

But primitive is really has its place of origin in their childhood.

它可以追溯到他们人生中最早的阶段——那时他们还躺在婴儿床里，没人抱起他们、安抚他们，或是给他们喂吃的。

It goes back to the earliest parts of their life, when they were in their crib and no one picked them up and cuddle them or fed them.

对，还有他们刚学步的时候，有人冲他们大喊大叫；再到青少年时期，有人虐待他们。

Yeah, when they were toddlers, someone yelled at them, or teenagers, someone abused them.

那种愤怒就来自这个早期的原始源头，所以他们的心理……

That rage comes from that early primitive source of So their psychological

罗斯，接下来要说的是题外话，你不用对此发表评论，我只是想分享一件刚想到的事。

this is a digression, you don't have to comment on this one, Ross, but I just want to share something that crossed my mind.

所以大家常问我，你是怎么做到的？

So people often say to me, how is it you do it?

你是怎么跟这些有自恋障碍的来访者一起工作的？

How is it you work with these narcissistically disturbed patients?

他们太难相处了。

They're so difficult.

但我不这么看，你懂吗？

And I don't see them that way, you know?

这就是其中一个例子。

And this is one example of it.

哪怕我们拿‘投射’这个看似极具破坏性的概念来说，换个角度解读的话：当你感到受伤或蒙羞，就像罗斯举的例子里那样，你试图让你的妻子或是配偶产生那种你自己无法接纳的情绪，从某种层面来讲，这其实是你在试图和他人建立联结的一种方式。

So even if we take something like projection, which seems so destructive, another way to conceptualize it is, if you feel hurt or humiliated, and you're trying to make, in Ross's example, your wife or your spouse feel something that you cannot own, in a way, it's another, it's a way to make a connection with somebody.

我知道这对大多数听众来说听起来很离谱，但这些人根本没办法把自己的感受说清楚。

I know that sounds crazy to most people listening, but they cannot articulate how they feel.

他们找不到合适的言辞来表达。

They don't have the words.

他们不具备我们所说的象征化能力。

They don't have the capacity for what we call symbolization.

有一种做法是让配偶产生某种特定的感受，寄希望于这样一来自己就能最终获得被理解的感觉。

One way to do it is to make the spouse feel a certain way, and the hope that they will then feel finally understood.

罗斯，我先说明，我清楚实际情况并不是这样的。

Now listen, I know it doesn't work that way, Ross.

我顺着你的思路接着聊。

Let me go with you.

你说得对，有一方面是这样。

So you're right on something.

所以我们现在在讨论自恋伤害的关系层面。

So now we're talking about the relational aspects of the narcissistic injury.

我们也在讨论人类磁铁综合症。

And we are also talking about the Human Magnet Syndrome.

这是我那本解释为什么相反的人会被彼此吸引的书的名字。

And that's the name of my book that explains why opposite people are attracted to each other.

为什么照顾者需要被照顾者。

Why the care giver needs the care taker.

而给予者需要索取者。

While the giver needs the taker.

患者需要住院者。

The patient needs the inpatient.

这就像一支探戈舞。

It's the dance like a tango.

这两个完全相反的人能契合在一起。

The two opposites fit together.

所以自恋者和依赖共生者也能契合在一起。

And so narcissist and codependents fit together.

如果你接受这个理论，就能明白：依赖共生者会说服自己，把自恋者身上发生的一切都解读为爱，这样他们才能感受到被爱；就像自恋者也会把依赖共生者的付出解读为爱一样。

And so if you accept that theory, then you understand that the codependent has to find a way to see whatever's happening with the narcissist as love, so that they can feel loved, just like the narcissist has to find a way to see the codependent as love.

于是这些依赖共生者，尽管承受着自恋者造成的伤害，却因为自身的依赖共生特质，将这一切都归到爱与承诺的大框架里；他们没有足够的自爱，无法意识到自己受到了多么糟糕的对待。

And so that they, at the brunt of the narcissist's harm, but because of their codependency, they see that within this larger context of love, larger context of commitment, and they don't have enough self love to understand how badly they're treated.

所以在这种关系动态中，自恋者会对某个人肆意发泄情绪，而这个人恰恰是那种不会离开他们的完美对象。

So within this relational dynamic, the narcissist gets to act out to a person, and the perfect type of person that's not going to leave them.

这个人也不会反抗他们。

That's not going to fight back.

对。

Yes.

这就是为什么自恋者不会和另一个自恋者相恋——这样的关系根本走不下去。

That's why a narcissist does not fall in love with a narcissist, it doesn't work out.

我们可以拿磁铁来举例，相反的北极和南极会相互吸引，贴在一起。

So we think of magnets, the opposite north and south pole, they come together.

他们会相爱或者说相互吸引——你刚才提到的，是共生依赖者之类的吗？

They fall in love or they attract, what did you say, the codependent or what was it?

自恋者会自然而然地和共生依赖者产生感情，因为只有这种人格类型能和他们的人格形成完美互补匹配。

Naturally fall in love with codependence because it's the only personality type that inversely matches up with theirs.

自恋者往往自视甚高，一切以自我为中心。

They're entitled self centered.

唯一能和他们相配的人，是那种没有存在感、没有真正的自尊、内心不安定，还懂得隐忍付出的人。

The only person that's going to match up with them is someone who is invisible, who doesn't really have self esteem, that's not secure, that is ungiving and patient.

正是这种截然相反的性格，让他们能够共处下去。

It's the opposite personalities allow them to coexist.

所以当我们审视自恋者与依赖共生者的这段关系时，会发现依赖共生者往往软弱、没有存在感、无法发声，还常常承受自恋者的情绪伤害、怒火、投射和煤气灯操纵，但他们依然会留在这段关系里。

So when we look at a narcissist codependent relationship, the codependent is weak, they're invisible, they're voiceless, they're often the subject to the narcissist injuries, rage, projection, gaslighting, and they stay there.

而这就是我的工作方向所在。

And that's my job.

我所做的就是帮助这些受害者，而他们把这种经历当作爱。

That's what I do is I work with the victims of this and they experience it as love.

在

Within

因为他们在关系中得到了一些东西，罗斯，是这样吗？

that Because they're getting something, Ross, is that right?

他们从这段关系中得到了什么？

They get something out of the relationship, which is what?

是什么让他们留在那里？

Like what keeps them there?

你们现在都看到了，当自恋者正在理想化他们，或者说所谓的‘爱轰炸’——不管你怎么称呼它——他们是否感到被认可？

You all seen at the moment, you know, when the narcissist is, let's say, idealizing them, or what they call love bombing, whatever phrase you want to use, but do they feel recognized?

这涉及到创伤性联结的概念。

Well, this goes to the concept of trauma bonding.

创伤性联结是一种熟悉感的连接，让人觉得这样才对。

So trauma bonding is this connection of familiarity that this feels right.

这就是我所了解的情况。

This is what I know.

所以在成长过程中，那些共依存型的人会一直抱有这样的想法：只要我足够迁就、足够低调、足够付出、足够有耐心，就会有人喜欢我。

So the SLD growing up, the codependent group grows up feeling like if I am just accommodating enough, invisible enough, giving enough, patient enough, a person will like me.

对的。

Yes.

而这正是他们童年时期遭受的创伤：为了维持和那个自恋者的关系，他们不得不抹去自己的存在感。

And that is the trauma of their childhood is they had to disappear in order to manage the relationship with the narcissist.

而那个自恋者无法和自己的父母建立起正常的亲密关系。

And the narcissist could not get a relationship with the parent.

他们没法维系这段亲子关系，反而成了身为自恋者的父母的自恋伤害的承受者，也就是要承受父母的疏忽和伤害。

They couldn't manage it, they were the recipient of the narcissistic parent's narcissist injuries, you know, neglect and hurt.

所以当我们观察这两个成年人——也就是自恋者和依赖共生者的时候，会发现他们童年经历的创伤在相互影响。

So we look at these two individuals, adults, the narcissist and the codependent, their childhood traumas are interacting.

是的。

Yes.

依赖共生者会觉得自恋者很熟悉，这是他们熟悉的处境，也是他们熟知的相处模式。

The codependent finds the narcissist as familiar, it's what they know, it's what they know how to do.

他们哪怕在睡梦中都能本能地知道，该怎么去爱一个会伤害自己的人。

They know walking in their sleep with their eyes closed, how to love someone who is harmful to them.

但他们完全不知道该如何去爱一个真心待己、懂得尊重自己的人。

But they have no idea of how to love someone who is good to them, who is respectful.

他们从未有过这方面的经验。

They have no experience.

就是那种熟悉感。

So that familiarity.

这两类人会相互吸引走到一起。

The two find each other.

自恋者会找到愿意倾听自己的人，这个人会给予他们旁人无法企及的十足尊重、爱与欣赏。

The narcissist finds someone that listens to them, that gives them this wide breath of respect and love and appreciation where no one else is.

依赖共生者和自恋者就像探戈舞者一样契合，而这种契合正是源于他们童年早期的依恋经历。

The codependent narcissist like the tango dancers, they fit, and it fits because of their early childhood experience of attachment.

本质上，这就是创伤联结。

In essence, it's the trauma bond.

创伤联结将他们捆绑在一起，他们本身对此毫无察觉，这一切都是无意识的，但双方的需求都得到了满足。

The trauma bonding keeps them together, they don't really know about it, it's unconscious, but they both are getting their needs met.

他们都不想孤身一人，对孤独怕得要死，所以他们守着这段关系，因为他们觉得自己就配拥有这样的关系，这也和他们过往的人生经历相契合。

They don't want to be alone, they are scared to death of being lonely and they stay together because that's what they feel that they deserve and what fits their life experience.

好的，说得太有道理了。

Okay, this is great.

我非常认同你说的这些，而这刚好引出了一个我们还没深入讨论的点，现在刚好能顺理成章地展开聊聊。

I really appreciate this, and it leads into one thing that we didn't get into yet, but this could be a big segue into.

我们已经聊了很多关于自恋型人格的脆弱感、羞耻感还有愤怒，对吧？

We've already talked quite a bit about narcissistic vulnerability, the shame, and the rage, right?

以及浮夸人格结构引发的代偿性愤怒。但我们还没谈到的一点——你刚才的表述已经非常接近这个话题了——就是究竟是什么让治疗成为可能。

Compensatory rage the grandiose structure But is what we haven't spoken about, and you're getting very close to it now, is what makes treatment possible.

所以罗斯，我们不用一直局限在自恋者和他们的愤怒这个角度里讨论，当然我们之前也聊了这些，但你刚才提到你也会和另一边的人群工作，也就是依赖共生型人格的人，对吧？

So we don't have to look at it, Ross, in terms of the narcissist and the rage, which of course we but you just mentioned that you work with the other side, which is the codependent, right?

所以，你可能更有经验。

So, you probably have more experience.

我实际上同时与双方都工作，但我想知道，在治疗方面，这看起来是怎样的？

I work specifically with, well, work with both sides, quite honestly, But I'm curious, in terms of treatment, what does that look like?

因为你所描述的这种关系，你说这是他们唯一知道的爱，对吧？

Because this kind of relationship you're describing, you said, this is the only love that they know, right?

他们能接受另一种类型的爱吗？

And could they tolerate a different type of love?

对它们来说，另一种类型的爱意味着什么？

What does even a different type of love mean to them?

换句话说，这会对他们产生什么影响？

And what would it do to them, in other words?

所以，所有这些都指向一个问题：你是如何思考治疗的？

So, all that is to say, in terms of how do you think about treatment?

这种爱在局外人看来是破碎的。

The love is broken to an outsider.

这种关系是失常的。

It's dysfunctional.

但对身处这段关系里的人来说，这就是我所说的「关系模板」所产生的互动模式。

But to an insider, it is the interaction of what I call relationship templates.

关系模板指的是你在一段关系中对自己的预期、你的偏好，以及你和对方相处时的舒适程度。

Relationship template is your predictions for yourself, your preferences, your comfort level with someone in a relationship.

而这种模板是由童年早期的经历塑造的。

And that is guided by early childhood experiences.

如果你足够幸运，拥有既不是自恋者也不是依赖共生者的普通父母——就是那种会有正常小矛盾的普通人，那你本会形成健康的依恋，体验到无条件的爱。

So if you were lucky and had normal parents who were neither a narcissist or a codependent, just say normal dysfunctional regular people, you would have had attachment, you would have had unconditional love.

这样你的亲密关系模板就会是：你会被懂得尊重你的人吸引。

And so your relationship template would be you're attracted to a person that respects you.

等你遇到心仪的人时，彼此就会产生化学反应，你总会被尊重你的人吸引。

And so when you meet, the chemistry comes together and you are attracted to the people that respect you.

这种化学反应会让你坠入爱河，而这正是‘人类磁铁综合征’的运作原理。

And that's chemistry, you fall in love and that's how the Human Magnet Syndrome works.

所以对于依赖共生者和自恋者来说，他们的关系模板就像我之前说的那样：对依赖共生者而言，他们对爱的全部认知就是压抑自己的需求，变得不再引人注目，一味照顾他人，永远保持耐心。

So with the codependent and the narcissist, their relationship template is, as I said earlier, the codependent is they know all about love when they push down their needs, they become invisible, they take care of someone, they're patient.

这就是他们的人生经历。

That is their life experience.

而对自恋者来说，他们对爱的全部认知就是自己永远要站在舞台中央，成为最重要的那个人——

The narcissist, all they know about love is for them being front and center and being the most important part of

的一部分。

it.

没错。

Yes.

这就是他们的思维模式。

That is their mindset.

当这两类人相遇时，就会产生这种联结、化学反应和爱意，我父亲曾经说过，一开始以为是灵魂伴侣，最后却成了同囚一室的狱友。

That when the two meet, there is this connection, this chemistry, and this love, thought that what my father once said, what starts off as a soul mate ends up as a cell mate.

灵魂伴侣最初是一段幻想，一种理想化的想象，对吧？

The soul mate is what starts off as a fantasy, an idealization, right?

原本幸福的结合最后变成——这又回到了创伤联结了——就成了狱友。

A blissful union turns in to, that's the trauma bond again, the cellmate.

狱友，他俩就是这样，对的。

Cellmate, they both, yeah.

所以这实际上意味着，两人都会开始怨恨对方，互相生气。

And so what that really means is they both start to resent each other and get angry.

但这类关系并不会破裂分开。

But these relationships don't break up.

这段关系里唯一还能维持些许正面感受的人是自恋者，因为从这段关系的相处模式和他们特有的人格类型来看，他们能得到的东西远比依赖共生者要多得多。

The only person it remains somewhat positive for is the narcissist, because they tend, based upon the relationship dynamic and their unique personality type, they tend to get a lot more than the codependent does.

但有个点——这要回到我之前提过的那个问题：究竟是什么把依赖共生者困在这段关系里？

But something this goes back to the question I raised earlier, what keeps the codependent there?

这是因为他们两人都有依恋创伤。

So both of them have attachment trauma.

他们都存在核心羞耻感，还有我所说的那种深入骨髓的病理性孤独。

Both of them have core shame, and what I call deep pathological loneliness.

但自恋者养育的孩子所承受的创伤与核心羞耻感，和那些不得不抛弃真实自我、只为成为讨人喜欢的角色的孩子所承受的创伤与核心羞耻感，并不一样。

But the difference of the trauma and the core shame from the child who was not loved by the narcissist is different from the trauma and the core shame of the child that had to abandon their real self to be the lovable object.

两者都属于创伤，但创伤程度有所不同。

Both were trauma but they were different levels of trauma.

那些什么都没得到的孩子，承受的创伤要严重得多。

The child who didn't get anything, that trauma is exponentially bigger.

那种影响实在太深了。

It's so profound.

但他们都对感情该有的模样形成了一套自己的认知。

But they both developed this idea of what they believe relationships look like.

而当他们相遇时——我是说依赖共生者和自恋者相遇时——他们不会因为对方的功能失调而爱上彼此。

And when they meet, it feels, I mean codependency and narcissist, when they meet, they don't fall in love with each other because the other one is dysfunctional.

他们会相爱是因为种种积极的感受，可能是对未来的期许，也可能是幻想带来的美好。

They fall in love because of all these positive things, whether it's anticipation, fantasy.

但这份感情终究难以维系，因为他们在一起都只是为了逃避孤独。

But it eventually does not hold up because they both are trying to avoid loneliness.