克里斯蒂娜·卡乔波，Vanta创始人兼首席执行官

这并不是纯粹的金融奖金，而是在传统金融奖金和没有奖金的初创公司之间的一种中间状态。

It was not like totally a finance bonus, but it was somewhere between, you know, finance bonus, like classic finance bonus, and no startup.

顺便说一句，这是我经常给年轻人的另一条建议。

Which, by the way, is another bit of advice I always give to young people.

如果你想创办一家初创公司，我给你的第一条建议是什么？

Like, if you want to start a startup, what's my first bit of advice?

学会编程，并存钱。

Learn to code and save your money.

是的。

Yep.

所以我辞掉了USV的工作，靠这笔奖金生活了一年半。

And so what I did was I quit USB, and I lived off my bonus for a year and a half.

别人都觉得我疯了。

And everyone else thought I was crazy.

我觉得这可能有点像二十多岁的迷茫期，但你知道的，某种程度上是对的。

It's like I and I think maybe it was a little quarter life but, you know, with with some sort Right.

没错。

Of Exactly.

你知道的，当你25岁的时候，这些看起来非常重要。

You know, as as those seem very important when you're, you 25.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

我当时说：不。

And I was like, no.

我想做这件事。

I wanna do that.

人们问我：你要创业吗？

And people are are you starting a startup?

我会说：不。

And I'd be like, no.

我在写代码。

I'm coding.

他们会说，那你打算去读硕士项目吗？

And they'd be like, so you're gonna go to a master's program.

我会说，不。

And I'd be like, no.

他们说，你真的应该好好想想，你看起来很困惑。

And they're like, you should really you seem confused.

你应该去读MBA。

You should get an MBA.

对吧？

Right?

然后我就想，但那样我还得再花二十万美元，再加上生活开销，去干我现在已经在做的事，还要频繁地飞去签证之类的地方，你知道的，这完全不是我的风格。

And then I was kind of like, but then I have to pay $200,000 on top of living expenses to, like, do what I'm doing and also, like, have more random flights to Visa or something, you know, like, not not my jam.

对。

Right.

但我自己也显得很困惑，因为我无法清楚地说明我到底在做什么，除了我想学习如何开发软件。

And but I couldn't also, like I also seem confused because I couldn't actually articulate what I was doing beside, like, I wanna learn to build software.

人们会问：你这么做的目的是什么？

And people were like, for what end?

你听起来很模糊。

And you're like, unclear.

我的回答有点像：别急，等我回你。

Like, hold my beer, I'll get back to you, was sort of my answer.

那你当时是怎么学习的？

So how were you teaching?

你是上在线课程，还是其他什么方式？

Were you taking online courses, or what that what you

是的。

Yeah.

那一年正是各种编程训练营盛行的时期。

Were this was the year this was the era of all the coding boot camps.

但我当时有点想，我真的想自己试试做这件事吗？

But I was sort of like, do I really like, I wanna try to do this myself.

所以我一开始学的是史蒂夫·霍夫曼的Udacity课程。

So where I started was Steve Hoffman's Udacity course.

什么？

What?

我超爱这种Y Combinator和霍夫曼之间的交集。

I love all of this y c overlap especially with Huffman.

天啊。

Oh my god.

他的Udacity课程。

His Udacity.

他的Udacity课程是教你怎么用Python写博客。

His Udacity course, which was how to make a blog in Python.

于是我看了，你基本上就是照着他讲的打字就行。

So I watch it, and you basically just, like, type what he tells you.

他用Python做了一个博客。

He makes a blog in Python.

然后我就想，好吧。

And then I was like, okay.

嗯，你知道，我其实没什么创业点子，但我一直特别喜欢书、阅读和书架。

Well, you know, I don't really have a startup idea, but I was, and I'm still really into books and reading and bookshelves.

如果我去别人家，我就只想看看他们的书架。

And if I, like, go into someone's apartment, I just kinda wanna look at their bookshelf.

从一个人的书架上，你能学到很多关于他的事，而且还能找到很多可以继续聊下去的话题，等等。

You, like, learn so much about them from their bookshelf, and then there's, like, lots of jumping off conversation points, whatever.

所以我就想，好吧。

So I was like, okay.

我要做一个书架网站。

I'm gonna make a bookshelf website.

这也难怪别人以为我正在经历人生危机，因为你会想，你是不是在跟亚马逊竞争？

It's also why people thought I was having a quarter of crisis because it's like, you know, I'm not they should like, are you competing with Amazon?

我当时说，不是。

I was like, no.

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

我又要做一个书架网站。

I'm making a bookshelf website again.

他们就会问，你这人生是打算怎么过？

And they'd be like, are you doing with your life?

但不管怎样，我就把我那个可以发帖的博客拿来了。

But anyway, so I, like, took my blog where you'd, like, post to a blog.

然后你就说，哦，你把书发到博客上。

And you're like, oh, you post a book to the blog.

好吧。

Okay.

你把一本书放到书架上。

You post a book to a shelf.

然后我做了一个网页应用，它在某些方面挺不错的，但就像你第一个项目那样，在很多方面都糟糕透顶。

And then I made this web app that was, you know, lovely in some ways and, like, deeply terrible in the ways your first projects are always deeply horrible.

一个五千年行的main.py文件，你知道的，你基本上把一切都搞砸了。

Five thousand line main dot py file, like, you know, you you kind of mess everything up.

但你在过程中学到了东西。

But you learn along the way.

所以那个

And so that

那是，嗯，最早我

was, like, the very And first I

我把它做出来了，而且它能运行。

built it, and it worked.

我有一些很棒的好朋友，当我请他们帮忙上架五本书时，他们会去这么做，你知道的，他们遇到一些错误，我就说，哦，我不知道，算了。

And I had, like, lovely and wonderful friends that would, like, go and, like, shelve five books when I asked them, and, you know, they'd hit some error, and I'd be like, oh, I don't you know, whatever.

真是没想到，对吧？

Have go figure, you know, right?

就是那样的。

Like, it was that.

但后来我看到了他们的书。

But, like, then I got to see their books.

那是我第一次惊呼：天啊。

And it was, like, the first, like, oh my god.

那是我做的。

I made that.

你知道的，花了三四个月，因为我什么都不懂，我连怎么调试都不清楚，连调试本身的方法都完全不会。

Well, you know, and it took, I know, three, four months because I didn't know what I was doing, and you didn't I didn't know how to deep like, not only, like I just didn't even know how to debug, like, the meta of debugging, all of that.

但我也说不好。

But, like, I don't know.

大部分时候就是硬着头皮撑过去。

You slug through it, mostly.

我只是觉得这太了不起了，因为真正这么做的人太少了。

I just like it's just so amazing because so few people actually do that.

他们觉得，是啊，我很想学编程，但他们不会坚持下去，包括我自己在内。

They think, yeah, I'd love to learn how to program, but they won't slug through it, including myself.

多年来我一直说，我应该学编程。

I have said for so many years, I should learn to program.

我有没有去做呢？

I and have I done it?

没有。

No.

因为这很难又耗时，但你做到了。

Because it's hard and time consuming, but you did it.

我觉得我听你提到过，你是把整个过程当成一份工作来对待的。

And I think I heard you describe it is you treated it, the process, as a job.

对吧？

Right?

有点在想，我是不是该去学校学这个？

Kind of to the, like, should I go to school for this?

我当时想，不行，但我得做到，不能一醒来就说：今天太累了。

It was like, no, but I need to, you know, like, not get up and be like, I'm tired today.

我要晚起两个小时，也许还会穿双鞋。

I'm gonna get up two hours late, and maybe I'll put on shoes.

你知道，你根本做不到那样。

You know, you're like, can't can't get to that.

我是不是一直处在度假模式？

Like, am I perpetually on vacation land?

所以纽约科技学院规模很小。

And so New York Tech was small.

克里斯·迪克森刚把他的公司Hunch卖给了eBay。

Chris Dixon had just sold his company, Hunch, to eBay.

他确实卖了，然后他们搬到了eBay纽约的新办公室，那地方大得离谱——虽然‘九千万亿平方英尺’不是真实数字，但就是大得惊人。

Well, he had And they had moved to new eBay New York, which was this, like, nine quadrillion not a real number, but, like, nine quadrillion square foot space that was empty.

他那种类型的人，就在你去安德里森和Lil Yolo之前，我觉得。

And he was kind of in the mold of, like so it's right before you went to Andreessen and Lil Yolo, I think.

所以，任何想来Hunch办公室闲逛的人，他都会给你一张桌子，因为他有成片的桌子。

And so it was like, whoever wanted to come hang out in the hunch office, he would just give you a desk because he had acres of desks.

而那个办公室基本上就在USV的马路对面。

And so and that office was basically across the street from USV.

所以我的想法是，好吧，我就起床、穿好衣服，然后像以前那样去同一个地方，你知道的？

So my thing was, like, look, I'm just gonna get up, and I get dressed, and I, like, walk to the same place I've walked for two you know?

我就只是，像过去两年那样，做同样的事情。

Like, I just, like, basically do the same thing I've done for two years.

我就坐在马路对面打字，但我会从早上九点干到六点、七点。

I just sit across the street and type, but I do that from, you know, nine to six, nine to seven.

对吧？

Right?

这是一份工作，我每天都会去一个大家每天都来打字的地方。

Like, it is a job, and I show up every day in a place where people show up every day and type things.

你有没有想过离开纽约来省钱？

Did you ever think about leaving New York just to save money?

因为我知道你的整个社交圈都在那里，但你知道，这里生活成本很高。

Because that's I'm sure your whole social circle was there, but like, you know, it's an expensive place to live.

是的。

Yes.

我觉得我太舍不得失去社交圈了，因为你就像，我已经把生活中其他所有东西都抛下了。

I think I was too like, losing the social circle was hard because you're like, I just blew up everything else in my life.

我到底该彻底搬走，还是至少抓住我剩下的这点东西？

Like, should I should I totally do it or, like, hang on to the shreds I have?

但有趣的是，我当时管这叫像读研究生一样，你知道，根本不出去吃饭，好一阵子都没打过出租车，诸如此类。

But it is funny because it was you know, I call it, like, it was grad school and that, you know, you're like, don't really go out to eat, did not get in a taxi for a while, you know, like, all of that.

对你来说是坐地铁。

Subway for you.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

我得读点东西。

I have to read something.

我本来不想这么做，但我找到了你写的一篇文章，你当时正处于这段经历中，在你的网站上分享过。

I try not to do this, but I found something that you wrote, you blogged about this on your website as you were in the middle of this.

卡罗琳，我必须读给你听，因为克里斯蒂娜，我发誓，这段话今天依然适用，我觉得它可能会激励一些人。

And Carolyn, I have to read it to you because I swear, Christina, this could apply to someone today, and I feel like it might inspire some people.

我来读几条要点。

I'm gonna read a couple of bullet points.

如果你辞掉了工作去创业，要想办法向父母解释清楚。

If you've left your job to make things, figure out a way to explain that to your parents.

当你没有工作时，大多数人会以为你无所事事。

When you don't have a job, most people will assume you're not working.

别对那些人太苛刻。

Don't be mean to those people.

他们只是困惑，并非恶意。

They're confused, not malicious.

和大多数决定一样，这个决定并没有看起来那么冒险。

Like most decisions, this one wasn't as risky as it seemed.

如果你是那种有能力辞职去创造事物的人，无论结果如何，一切都会好起来的。

If you're the sort of person who can afford to quit his or her job to make things, everything will be okay regardless of how this all turns out.

最后，我再读这一条。

And then lastly, I'll just read this one.

话虽如此，这件事在大学期间做起来比毕业后更容易，没有家庭负担比有家庭负担时更容易。

That said, this is one of those things that's easier to do in college than after, and it's easier to do without a family than with one.

但无论你处于什么情况，都有成千上万的人做过同样的事。

But whatever your situation, thousands of other people have done this.

只要给予时间和努力，你也可以做到。

Given time and effort, you can too.

我就是喜欢这一点。

I just love that.

哦，我想要更多

Oh, I want more

人们非常直接。

people Very straightforward.

是的。

Yes.

这真是很好的建议。

It's such good advice.

我的意思是，任何考虑创业或学习如何指导的人，你都可以把这段话贴在早上照镜子的地方。

I mean, feel like anyone thinking of doing a startup, learning how to coach, you just paste that to their mirror in the morning.

听到这些挺有趣的，因为我能感觉到，我既是在给自己写建议和打气，又带着一丝不满——觉得‘别以为我没在工作，只是我没工作’。

It's funny to hear that because I can both hear the I am definitely giving myself advice and a pep talk in writing that and the, like, kind of ire of being like, stop thinking I'm not working because I don't have a job.

我其实很努力。

I am working hard.

你知道的？

You know?

我能听到这些，而且当你读出来的时候，我也能感受到。

And, like, I can I can kind of hear all of that and and, yeah, as you read it?

也许我们可以教育其他人，不要因为你正在学编程就认为你没在工作，因为我觉得你做了这件事，我真的很羡慕。

Maybe we'll train other people not to assume you're not working just because you're learning how to code because I think that that's the most I'm, like, envious that you did that.

基本上，整个这种质疑让我觉得，真希望我在二十多岁有时间的时候就做过这件事。

Basically, this whole questioning is like, I wish I had done that in my 20s when I had the time.

好的。

Okay.

所以你现在正在学编程。

So now you're learning to code.

跟我们讲讲你创业旅程的下一步会发生什么。

Tell us what happens next in your startup journey.

我做了很多没人用的东西。

I make a bunch of stuff that no one uses.

很多东西。

Lots of stuff.

我现在故意在我的网站上列出了一个清单。

I have a list of it on my website now on purpose.

我想再回溯一点，但我在USV学到的另一件事是，这些创业故事有时是有意、有时是无意地被讲述成线性的：我做了这个，然后做了那个，接着就拥有了十亿用户，然后就成功了。

I think another thing backtracking a little bit, but another thing I learned at USV is sometimes on purpose and sometimes not, a lot of these startup stories are told as these linear I did this, and I did this, and then I had a billion users, and then I was a success.

在USV，我有机会看到一些这些公司。

And at USV, I got to see some of those companies.

尽管它们确实做了这些和那些，也拥有了十亿用户，但中间的过程却几乎什么都没有。

And while they did this and that, and they have a billion users, the in between is, like, not a lot.

中间的过程就像一片疯狂的树篱迷宫。

The in between is like a crazy topiary nave.

而且，就像我说的，有很多方式可以做到这一点，这是人类的常态，而不是像什么神明那样。

And in the vein of, like, kind of lot there's lots of ways to do it, and humans do this, not just, like, I don't know, gods.

我非常强烈地认为，应该好好聊聊事情中那些混乱的中间阶段。

Like, I feel pretty strongly about talking through the messy middle of things.

总之，我的混乱中间阶段就是，是的，做了很多没人想要的东西。

Anyway, so my messy middle is, yeah, made a bunch of stuff no one wanted.

对此我感到很难过。

I was quite sad about that.

尽管我经常告诉别人，我只是在学编程，不想创业，但我确实很想创办一家公司。

Because as much as I told people, oh, I'm just learning to code, I don't want to start a startup, I definitely wanted to start a startup.

我只是不想创办一家我不相信的公司，因为我看到太多人这么做了。

I think I just didn't want to start a startup that I didn't believe in, because I saw people do that all the time.

我看到，一开始这感觉很棒，因为你进了YC，然后融到了资，但接着你就不得不去干那件事。

And I saw how it is awesome at first because you're in YC, and then you raise money, and then you have to work on the thing.

你知道，然后事情就变得糟糕透顶了。

You know, like, then it is then it is terrible.

所以我对这种模式持有某种程度的怀疑，介于健康和不健康之间。

So I had probably somewhere between a healthy and an unhealthy skepticism of that.

我到了一个地步，那大概已经是两年后了。

I got to a point where I it was probably two years.

我银行账户里的钱不多，心里想着：天啊，我真受够了便利店三明治。

I did not have a ton of money in my bank account and was kinda like, man, I am tired of bodega sandwiches.

你知道吗？

You know?

我就想，骑车赶路。

I'm like, bike rush.

你知道吗？

You know?

回头想想，我觉得自己现在老多了。

Like, I feel like I'm very old now in retrospect.

我可能没那么老，但我当时真觉得自己特别老。

I'm probably not that old, but I felt I felt very old.

我觉得自己到了一个可以动手做点什么的阶段。

I felt like I'd gotten to a place where you're like, oh, I can build something.

你知道，这是不是世界上最好的东西？

Like, you know, is it the best thing in the world?

不是。

No.

或者你知道吧，我能把脑子里的想法放到屏幕上获取反馈，然后据此改进。

Or, you know, but, like, I can get the thing in my head under a screen for feedback that then I can make it better.

所以，你知道的，这方面算是达标了。

So, you know, kind of box check there.

你总能把它做得更好，但至少我们已经达到了某个基础水平。

You can always make it better, but, like, we're at some baseline level there.

但具体来说，我到底在做什么呢？

But, like, what am I actually doing?

我的朋友们、同龄人，不管是创业者还是在公司工作的人，他们都在不断进步。

My friends, my peers, whether they were founders or working at companies, they were, like, advancing.

对吧？

Right?

而我呢，我从来没在公司工作过。

And here I was, and I'd kind of never worked at a company.

再说一遍，我确实在USV工作过，但那是一家只有五个人的风险投资公司，你们都知道USV是怎么运作的，它很棒，很美好，但根本算不上一家公司，对吧？

Again, I'd worked at USV, but it's a five person venture firm, and you all know how USV works, and it's wonderful and lovely and not a company, right?

我只有一些同事。

And I only sort of had coworkers.

所以还有一部分让我觉得：天啊，我社交能力有多差？

And so there was just this also part where it's like, oh my gosh, how unsocialized am I?

比如，公司到底是什么？

Like, how do I like, what is a company?

什么意思？

Like, what?

感觉所有人都比我领先太多，但我觉得自己还能追上。

It feels like everyone is so far ahead of me, and I think I can catch up.

但我甚至都没站在体育场里。

But like, I'm also not even in the stadium.

我现在离那里还有五个邮区远。

Like, I'm five ZIP codes away right now.

哇。

Wow.

所以那时候有很多情绪、感受和悲伤围绕着这件事。

And so there was, like, a bunch of feelings and emotions and sadness around that.

但我想，那我又能做些什么呢？

But I think it was also, well, what am I gonna do about it?

你知道的，我难道要一直待在五个邮区之外吗？

Like, you know, like, am I gonna keep staying five ZIP codes away?

我要不要试着进入体育场呢？

Am I gonna, like, try to get in the stadium?

于是我加入了Dropbox，担任产品经理，因为我有很多朋友在那里工作，包括我曾经试图让USV投资的一家初创公司，他们叫Hackpad，但没成功。

And so I end up joining Dropbox as a PM, because I basically had a bunch of friends who worked there, including a startup I had tried to get USV to invest in and they didn't called Hackpad.

哦，是的。

Oh, yes.

我记得那件事。

I remember that.

对。

Yes.

所以我加入了Hackpad团队，和Hackpads一起工作。

And so I joined the Hackpad team to work with the Hackpads.

他们叫什么名字来着？

What were their names again?

Igor和Alex。

Igor and Alex.

Igor和Alex，Hackpad的创始人。

Igor and Alex, the Hackpad founders.

我 definitely记得他们。

Definitely remember them.

好的。

Okay.

所以你在Dropbox里和他们的团队一起工作。

So you worked on their team at Dropbox.

这又是另一个YC的关联点。

Another, you know, YC connection point here.

另外，我得提一下，差不多这个时候我以更个人的方式认识了你。

Also, I need to throw in here, I met you on a more personal level around this time.

我要问你是什么时候，因为我记不清了，因为你当时正在和Stripe的帕特里克·科利森约会。

I'm gonna ask you when because I don't remember because you were dating Patrick Collison of Stripe.

是的。

Yeah.

其实正好相反。

It's actually reverse.

是你介绍我们认识的。

You introduced us.

真的吗？

Is that true?

是真的。

It's true.

你在说什么？

What are you talking about?

我差点

I'm about

从椅子上掉下来。

to fall

从椅子上掉下来。

out of my chair.

差点。

Almost.

好吧。

Okay.

给我讲讲我们是怎么介绍你们认识的。

Tell me the story

我们是怎么介绍你们认识的。

of how we introduced you.

我洗耳恭听。

I'm all ears.

所以是2010年夏天的演示日。

So summer twenty ten demo day.

哦。

Oh.

你过来找我打招呼，我当时想，哦，你真的告诉我他们录用了你。

Think you come come find me and say hello, and it was like, oh, you actually told me they hired you.

嘿，你好。

Like, hello.

你妻子还说，这位女士真好。

Like, and your wife's like, oh, this woman is so nice.

然后，有人把你拉走了，你跟我说，这是哈吉。

What's your you know, like and then, like, somebody pulls you away, and you're like, here's Harge.

哈吉也很棒。

Harge is also great.

他把我介绍给了哈吉，因为当时他是团队合伙人。

And introduced me to Harge because he was a partner that he was a group partner then.

第一次任职。

First stint.

我们聊了聊，随便聊聊什么的。

We talk, like, go on mere ways, whatever.

然后，三周后，我收到一封邮件，上面写着：嗨，克里斯蒂娜。

And then, like, three weeks later, I get this email being like, hi, Christina.

我的名字叫帕特里克。

Like, my name's Patrick.

我想向弗雷德推销，但他不在城里。

I wanna pitch Fred, but he's out of town.

所以我打算给你发邮件，而且哈吉和杰西卡都告诉我你人很好。

And so I figured I'd email you, and also Harge and Jessica told me you were nice.

所以，想约你喝杯咖啡。

So, like, wanna get coffee.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

继续说。

Keep going.

找你是为了工作，不是私人事情。

Hitting you up for business, not not for personal.

对。

Correct.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

因为如果我正式拒绝过，我会记得的。

Because I would have remembered if I had officially said no.

但就是那个‘是的’。

But it was the yeah.

一切都回到了2010年夏天的那个时候。

It was everything goes back to the summer twenty ten time of day.

确实如此。

It really does.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

所以他给你发邮件，是因为他想要一个USB接口，而我很庆幸我还没见过你。

So he emailed you because he wanted an in to USB, and I'm glad I hadn't met you.

我说，哦，给克里斯蒂娜发邮件吧。

And I said, oh, email Christina.

对。

Yes.

然后，你知道的，你们开始约会了？

And then, you know, you started dating?

你们俩有没有发生过

Do you guys hit

两年后。

it Year, year, two years later.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

几年后。

Couple years later.

哦，所以当时是 okay。

Oh, so there was a okay.

当时有个延迟。

There was a lag.

所以他激励你了吗？

So did he inspire you?

因为那时他已经开始创办Stripe了。

Because he had, at that point, started Stripe.

是的。

Like Yeah.

他有没有通过自己的经历激励你去学习编程，让你相信自己也能做到，甚至可能创办自己的初创公司？

Did he inspire you to, you know, learn to code and that you could do it and maybe start your own startup kind of thing by what he was doing?

是的。

Yes.

我认为他人生中的一项超能力就是，比人们自己更相信他们。

And I think just one of his superpowers in life is believing in people more than they believe in themselves in the moment.

而我就是这种信任的受益者。

And I think I was a beneficiary of that.

但我想，如果我们列出所有受益于这种信任的人，名单实际上有数百人之多。

But I think if we, like, listed out the people who are beneficiaries of that, like, the list is literally in the hundreds.

是的。

Yeah.

我们都需要这样的朋友。

And we all need friends like that.

当你遇到这样的人时，真是太好了。

It's so great when you meet someone who's like that.

哎呀，帕特里克。

Aw, Patrick.

是的。

Yeah.

哎呀。

Aw.

好吧，我能问一下吗？回头说一下，你完全是自学的，对吧？

Well, can I can I ask, like, going back for a minute, you so you're totally self taught, right, when it okay?

不过你一定变得非常厉害了，因为如果你是Dropbox的招聘人员，面对一大堆简历，里面有麻省理工和斯坦福计算机科学专业的毕业生，那你作为一个自学成才的程序员，是怎么拿到这样的工作的？

Comes You must have gotten really good though, because, like, if you're you're a recruiter, you're hiring person at Dropbox, and you have all these resumes, and you have MIT grads and Stanford CS, and it's like, how do you, as a self taught coder, get a job like that?

我没有。

I didn't.

所以有两点。

So two things.

第一点是产品经理。

One is a product manager.

第二点，好的。

Two Okay.

是的，没错。

That's yeah.

就他们的观点而言，招聘人员不知道该如何处理我，因为我的背景和他们见过的都不一样。

To their point, the recruiters did not know what to do with me because I did not look like things they had seen.

所以这挺有趣的。

And so it was funny.

所以我经历了两到三天的面试，因为我实际上是在同时应对两到三个职位的面试。

So I went through two or three days of interviews, because I was kind of doing two or three roles worth of interviews.

是的。

Yeah.

然后你就想，他们为什么这么在意这个？

And then you're like, why did they even care this much?

就像，是的。

Like Yeah.

恕我直言，招聘人员根本不在乎。

With much respect, the recruiters didn't.

但我恰好认识一些公司内部德高望重的人，他们只是说：‘别管那么多，想想怎么安排她吧。’

But I just kind of knew enough people in good standing internally who were just like, no, figure out what to do with her.

我

I

明白。

see.

我当时就在想，请你们赶紧决定怎么安排我吧。

And I was kind of like, please figure out what to do with me.

如果你需要我完成五个障碍赛道，我随时待命。

And if you need me to run through five obstacle courses, I am here for that.

对。

Right.

然后，我就一一经历了这些环节。

And so then, like, went through all of these.

当时好像还有一位工程师。

It was like a there was a bit of an engineer.

他们有一个原型设计师的职位。

There was, like, this prototyper role they had.

还有一位产品经理。

There was a PM.

可能还有一位设计师。

There might have been designer.

你知道的。

You know?

就是，直接全部走一遍，然后看看最后剩下什么。

Like, it was just, like, go through it all and then see what's left at the end.

但说实话，我表现得还行，我觉得，主要是内部的人在为我争取。

But, really, it was I mean, I did well enough, I suppose, but really, it was the people on the inside pushing for me, honestly.

因为他们知道你很有才华，就觉得你应该直接雇她。

Because they knew you were talented, and they're like, well, you should let her just hire her.

她自己会搞定的。

She'll figure it out

没错。

kind Yeah.

基本上是这样。

Basically.

是的。

Yeah.

就是那样。

Was that.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

但你肯定自学编程很出色，就像她那样。

But still, you must have done a good job teaching yourself to code because, like She did.

她这是谦虚。

She's being humble.

我正想说呢。

I was gonna say.

好的。

Okay.

现在我们说到重点了，抱歉说了这么多背景信息，但这对我的社交直觉至关重要。

Now we're getting I'm sorry for all of this background stuff, but it's very critical to, like, my social radars.

你知道的吧？

You know?

在我们深入谈Vanta之前，我得好好了解你，因为当你在Dropbox Paper工作时，那正是Hackpad。

I gotta get to know you deeply before we get in to Vanta because drop when you are at Dropbox Paper, that that is when Hackpad.

Hackpad。

Hackpad.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

这正是促使你进入合规自动化行业的原因之一。

That is sort of what is one of the things that inspired you to get into the compliance automation business.

对吧？

Right?

因为卡罗琳说，你知道她为什么选择这个行业吗？

Because Carolyn said, do you know why she chose this industry?

我当时说，下周吧。

I was like, next week.

去吧，我们会弄清楚一切的。

Do, and we're going find out all about it.

所以跟我们说说在Dropbox发生了什么。

So tell us what happened at Dropbox.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我认为，当时那个阶段的大致时间是2014到2015年的Dropbox。

So I think the the, like, little broad arcs at the stage was, like, 2014, 2015 Dropbox.

那时还是硅谷实力与影响力的巅峰时期，但我觉得那也是一个应用群星闪耀的时代。

Still, like, height of Silicon Valley power and prowess, but I think it was it was also a constellation of apps era.

每个人都说：哦，但我们不会永远都需要文件了。

And as everyone being like, oh, but we're not gonna have files forever.

Dropbox的业务蓬勃发展，每年的收入都在翻倍、三倍，甚至五倍增长。

Dropbox's business is booming and continuing to, whatever, double, triple, like, quintuple year over year.

但当时我也觉得，说不上来为什么。

But it also felt like I don't know.

当时感觉这种趋势到今天应该会停止了。

It felt like that would stop to this day.

十年过去了，这种趋势并没有停止。

Ten years later, it hasn't stopped.

但事实上，他们当时试图开发一个照片应用。

But, like, right, it was like, they were trying to make a photo app.

他们的想法是，人们会在Dropbox里放些什么呢？

They was like and I think the the strategy was, well, what do people put in Dropboxes?

人们会放照片，所以我们做了Carousel。

They put in photos, so we'll make Carousel.

他们可能会放邮件，所以我们收购了Mailbox。

They might put in emails, so we'll buy Mailbox.

他们有很多文档，所以我们收购了Hackpad，并将其改造成文档编辑器。

They have lots of documents, so let's buy Hackpad and turn it into a document editor.

因此，这可以说是他们整体的战略。

And so that was kind of the overarching piece.

然后，那个团队变成了Paper团队。

And then the, what was the paper team or the became the paper team.

Hackpad团队被融合了。

The Hackpad team was kind of blended.

一半是Hackpad的人，一半是Dropbox的人。

It was half Hackpad, half Dropbox people.

而且全部基于旧的Hackpad代码库。

And it was all the old Hackpad code base.

但不管怎样，我们和Dropbox的其他部门完全独立，我们觉得自己特别酷，因为我们会想：哦，我们不做那些又慢又人多、流程糟糕的旧东西，我们是酷炫的海盗，正在打造新东西。

But, anyway, and so we, you know, we had and we were totally separate from the rest of Dropbox, and we thought we were super cool because we're like, oh, we're not doing the old thing that's slow and has a bunch of people and bad process and, like, we are the cool pirates building the new thing.

我们正在打造新东西。

And we were building the new thing.

当我加入时，情况很有趣，那时Dropbox的每个人都已经放弃Google Docs，转用Paper了。

And it was at this fun when I walked in, it was this funny level where everyone at Dropbox had moved off of Google Docs and used paper.

我们当时叫它别的名字，但那时候就叫Paper。

We called it something else, but paper at the time.

我们不能支付给Dropbox以外的人来使用这个产品。

And we could not, like, pay someone outside of Dropbox to use the product.

我们的笑话是，我们只有两个用户。

And our joke was we had two users.

我们有AJ的妈妈，AJ是团队里的工程师。

We had AJ's mom AJ was an engineer on the team.

但我们有AJ的妈妈，她从未见过Google Docs，所以觉得实时编辑简直是魔法。

But we had AJ's mom, who had never seen Google Docs, so thought real time editing was magic.

还有工程经理Steve的女朋友，她们是我们的最佳用户。

And we had engineering manager Steve's girlfriend, and they were her best users.

后来，工程经理Steve和他女朋友分手了。

And then engineering manager Steve broke up with his girlfriend.

我是说，我以为我们只是把你也算进去了。

Like, actually, I thought we just made you as well.

不是。

No.

关于其他用户，但我们其实并没有真正关注。

About other users, but we like sort of didn't.

那时候的情况就是，我们甚至会给AJ的妈妈写母亲节卡片。

And that was kind of like the state of things where we would like write Mother's Day cards to AJ's mom.

然后必须得有更多用户才行。

And then gotta get more than that.

如果我们要成为Dropbox，那这就太棒了。

And then if we're a Dropbox, it was like, this is great.

为什么它还没有风靡全球？

Why hasn't it taken over the world?

我们就会说，要不要介绍你认识AJ的妈妈？

And we'd be like, can we introduce you to AJ's mom?

她超爱这个产品。

She loves it.

特别喜欢。

Loves it.

随着时间推移，我们开始思考，如何打造一个东西——不管是玩笑还是正经的，我们称之为‘Brannan Street初创公司’。

And so over time, we started to figure out, how can we make something that or joke or not joke, what we called them were Brannan Street startups.

那就是我们的目标市场。

That was our target market.

我们心想，希望2016年旧金山Brannan Street上的所有初创公司都能使用Paper。

We're like, we want all the Brannan Street startups Brannan Street in San Francisco, like, 2016, to use paper.

简而言之，这种‘初创公司中的初创公司’模式非常艰难，因为如果我们完全独立，本可以做很多事，但因为我们属于Dropbox，结构上、法律上或各种原因让我们无法实现。

And we did I think the short version of it is that actually made me like, startup within a startup concept is very tough, because there are lots of things we would have done if we were totally independent that we structurally or legally or whatever could not do because we are part of Dropbox.

回顾起来，我们太满足于当一个岛上的海盗了，反而不擅长融入Dropbox并充分利用它的优势。

And I think, in retrospect, we were not very we were too pleased being pirates on an island, and we're not good at attaching to Dropbox and taking advantage.

所以我们只承受了弊端，却没有享受到好处。

So we just kind of had the downsides and not the upsides.

无论如何，其中一个弊端是，我们原本计划上线，打算推出dropbox.com/paper，用户注册后就能进入产品。

Anyway, and one of those downsides is we were going to launch, and we were going to launch a go to dropbox.com/paper, and you sign up, and you get into the product.

我们非常兴奋，因为我们需要的用户远不止AJ的妈妈。

And we were very excited, because we needed more users than AJ's mom.

所以我们本来打算这么做，然后呢，然后呢。

So we were going to do this, and da da da da da.

就在几天前，一位律师走到我们的办公桌前，说：嘿，你们不能向Dropbox的客户发布产品。

And a couple of days before, one of the lawyers walks over to our desks and is like, hey, you can't launch to Dropbox customers.

对吧？

Right?

你当时说：什么？

And you're like, pardon?

他回答：不行，你们不能这么做。

He was like, no, you can't.

你们会违反合同。

You will violate the contracts.

你当时说：什么？

And you're like, what?

他接着说：哦，他们有合同。

And he was like, oh, they have the contracts.

他们还说 Dropbox 是安全的、合规的、经过渗透测试的，符合 SOC2 和 PCI 标准，诸如此类的废话。

And they say things like Dropbox is secure and compliant and pen tested and SOC two and PCI and, like, blah blah.

然后你就说：你能把这些词拼给我看看吗？

And you're like, could you spell those words for me?

简直像个傻乎乎的产品经理。

Like, kind of idiot PM.

当时就是完全搞不懂他们在说什么。

It was just like, what are you talking about?

不过在你讲这个故事的时候，Marilyn 作为律师，正一脸了然地点着头。

Anyway Marilyn's giving a real, like, sort of knowing nod here as you're telling this story, being the lawyer.

所以你当时完全一头雾水。

So you were clueless.

你就是那种愚蠢又懵懂的状态。

You were just like Stupid clueless.

好吧。

Okay.

是的

Yeah.

然后你就开始努力少一点无知，多一点明白，我想是这样。

And then you're and then you and then but kind of then you, like, try to be less clueless, more clueful, I suppose.

你开始明白，你心想，你让我做的这些事到底是什么东西？

And you learn, like, you're like, what are these things you're asking me to do?

然后你就说，好吧。

And you're like, okay.

比如，SOC 二。

Like, SOC two.

好吧。

Okay.

你需要一个审计师来审查一切，这样别人才会觉得你没问题。

Like, you need an auditor to come in and vet everything so everybody else then thinks you're fine.

你心想，这说得通。

You're like, that makes sense.

不错。

Cool.

买吧。

Buy it.

这就很棒了。

It's like, great.

为了准备审计，你需要让整个工程团队暂停一年的开发工作，去截取 AWS 的截图给会计师看。

In order to prepare for that auditor, you need to take your whole engineering team away from building for a year and take screenshots out of AWS to show the accountant.

然后你就会说，等等，抱歉。

And then you're like, wait, sorry.

你能再重复一遍吗？

Run that by me again?

刚才没听清。

Like, lost you.

真是惊人。

It was Wow.

了解它究竟是什么，然后意识到我明白了大体情况。

Learning what it actually was and be like, I get the high level.

你达成目标的方式似乎还停留在1994年。

The way you get there seems generously stuck in 1994.

再说一遍，Dropbox，2016年，它最鼎盛的时期。

And again, Dropbox, 2016, height of its power.

这就是当时最顶尖的科技私有公司之一的做法。

Like, this is how, like, one of the preeminent tech private tech companies of the day does this.

你在开玩笑吧？

Are you kidding me?

你能简单用一两句话描述一下SOC 2是什么吗？

Can you quickly, just in a sentence or two, just describe what SOC two is?

因为这对你的业务来说是个非常重要非常重要的事。

Because it's a, you know, big, big thing for your business.

这是一种软件公司要接受的审计，主要审查其IT和安全实践与政策。

It's an audit that software companies go through, and it's an audit against their IT and security practices and policies.

所以它的运作方式是：首先，公司定义他们应该做什么，然后一名审计员——出于一些奇怪的历史原因，这其实是个会计师——会进来，说：嘿，你告诉我你们每个人的邮箱都启用了双因素认证。

And so the way it works is, first, the company defines kind of what they're supposed to be doing, And then an auditor, who's actually an accountant for weird historical reasons, comes in and is like, hey, you told me you have two factor in everybody's email.

那你能证明给我看吗？

Well, prove it to me.

于是你说：好的，我登录G Suite管理控制台，给你看这个页面，上面全是锁的图标。

And you say, Okay, I'll log in to the G Suite Admin Console and show you this page that has all these locks on it.

他们说：很好。

And they say, great.

把这张带有日期的截图发给我。

Take a screenshot of that with the date and, like, send it to me.

然后你基本上要重复这个过程一千次。

And then you do that basically 1,000 times.

会计师随后就会离开。

The accountant will then leave.

他们会把所看到的一切写成一份80页的报告。

They will write up everything they saw in this 80 page report.

你得到一份神奇的PDF文件，在接下来的364天里，你可以把它发给客户，告诉他们：你可以对我的做法有信心，因为我刚刚通过了这次审计。

You get this magic PDF, and for the next three sixty four days, you can send it to your customers and say, hey, you can have confidence in my practices, cause I just went through this audit.

这是支持这一点的74页信息。

Here's the 74 pages of information to back it up.

这真是太痛苦了。

This is so painful.

天哪。

Oh gosh.

我简直不敢相信。

I can't believe this.

所有这些只是为了确保你完成了各项检查项。

So all these things to make sure that you're checking the boxes.

我要说，那时候Dropbox确实很正规，但很多新兴初创公司根本没时间或兴趣去搞这些事。

And I will say, Dropbox was very legit at that point, but there's a lot of up and coming startups that this is the last thing they have time to do or care about.

所以我想象，根本没人会做这些审计，也不会让开发团队停滞一年。

So I imagine no one was doing these audits or freezing their development team for a year.

天哪。

Oh my god.

正确。

Correct.

我的意思是，这会花很多钱。

I mean, it it would have cost a lot.

我的意思是，Dropbox 本可以为你们支付费用，让你们内部完成，但我想，普通的初创公司根本负担不起——不仅仅是这一年停摆，还有所有这些成本。

I mean, Dropbox could have paid for it for you guys to do it in house, but, like, your average startup would, I'm assuming, not be able to I mean, not not just the year of downtime, but, like, all of it.

两者都是。

It was both.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

你愿意让你的工程团队闲置一年吗？

It was, like, do wanna give your engineering team away for a year?

然后你就说，不行。

And you're like, no.

不行。

No.

我不愿意。

I don't.

绝不可能。

No way.

实际上，到那时为止，Paper还没有获得SOC 2认证。

So actually, I was there, to that point, Paper did not have a SOC two.

我们觉得，不能把团队交出去。

We were like, we can't give away the team.

我们只有一个用户，就是AJ的妈妈。

We only have AJ's mom as a user.

我们得先解决这个问题。

We got to solve that problem first.

他们后来做到了。

They did it later.

但就这一点而言，情况其实是一样的。

But to that, it was just like even it was the same thing.

再说，即使Dropbox有那么多资源，看起来也还是没有找到产品市场契合点。

Again, even with the resources Dropbox had, it just seemed like, well, don't have product market fit.

我们为什么要这么做？

Why would we do this?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

所以出于好奇，为了把这个故事讲完，你们有没有尝试向非Dropbox用户推广？

So did you just out of curiosity to close this story out, did you try to market to non Dropbox customers?

解决方案是什么？

What was the solution?

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，对。

Well, yeah.

基本上，我们利用了Dropbox的营销渠道来引流，这些用户主要是Dropbox用户或早期采用者——如果你是2016年的Dropbox用户，他们会进入一个页面，登录后却撞上一堵墙。

Basically, we used the Dropbox marketing channels to drive traffic, which was mostly Dropbox users slash early adopters, if you're a Dropbox customer in 2016, to a page where they'd log in and then hit a brick wall.

我认为Paper没有成功的原因有很多，但我觉得这一点对我们的努力帮助不大。

And there's many reasons I think paper didn't take off, but I think this was this was not helpful in the effort.

好的。

Okay.

然后你们就决定创办一家初创公司？

So then you decided to start a startup?

我觉得这是多种因素的结合，你知道，我所有的笑话，比如海盗在岛上的故事很酷，但并不符合这个产品的需求。

I think it was it was a combo of to to all of the you know, all my jokes, it was like the pirate the pirate on the island thing is very cool, but, like, not what this product needs.

这个产品需要一个能够将其与Dropbox其他部分整合起来的产品负责人。

The product needs someone and a product leader who will integrate it with the rest of Dropbox.

在这些限制条件下，这才是正确的事情。

Like, given these constraints, that is the right thing.

但这不是我。

Like, that's not me.

你知道的。

You know?

我可以试着成为这样的人，但说实话，我不适合。

Like and I can try to be that person, but, like, I'm it's not me.

因此，从这个角度看，感觉是一个合理的过渡时机。

And so in that sense, it felt like a reasonable transition time.

然后我觉得，更深层的原因是我真的想创办一家初创公司。

And then I think the background pieces, I I wanted to start a startup.

你知道吗，几年前我就有种感觉，我其实只试了一半，另一半没真干。

You know, I'd kind of felt like I'd I'd halfway tried, halfway hadn't a couple years ago.

我当时有点，呃，说不上来，就是有点怨气。

I was sort of, again, I don't know, resentful.

我当时就想，下次我真不想再试了。

I was like, I don't wanna actually try next time.

如果你们真要上场了，却又退回来，至少也该挥一下棒子吧。

Like, if we kinda stepped up to the plate and walked back, you're like, at least swing the bat.

我觉得，是时候该从这份工作里抽身了。

And it felt, yeah, it felt like a reasonable time to, like, step away from paper.

好的。

Okay.

所以你离开的时候，是不是想着要去搞定那个该死的合规问题？

So did you step away thinking, I'm gonna tackle this hideous, compliance

没那么聪明。

Not that smart.

困境。

Quagmire.

不，没那么聪明。

No, not that smart.

好吧。

Okay.

那么你是怎么

So how did you

决定的，是的，你做了本不该做的事。

decide Yeah, to do spent kind of you did the thing you're not supposed to do.

花了三个月时间，打造了一堆没人想要的东西。

Spent like three months building a bunch of stuff that no one wanted.

就是想着，要是这个东西存在该多好？

You know, being like, oh, what if this existed?

很棒。

Cool.

我做出来了。

I made it.

然后拿给人们看，他们就会说，我不想要，但也许我朋友会想要，你知道，这就像一种不错的

And showing it to people, and they'd be like, well, I don't want it, but maybe my friend, which, you know, is just like a nice

也许AJ的妈妈想要

Maybe AJ's mom wants

它。

it.

没错。

Exactly.

那时候我们又回到了AJ的妈妈那里，你知道，情况很糟。

It was like we were, like, back to AJ's mom, you know, like, bad.

就这样持续了几个月。

And did that for a couple months.

你知道，这很酷，因为你一直在做东西，然后你突然想，等等。

You know, it's cool because you're building stuff, and then you're like, wait.