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这是第480集，嘉宾是Rogue Running的首席跑步教练、作家兼播客主持人克里斯·麦克朗。
This is episode 480 with the head running coach of Rogue Running, author, and podcast host, Chris McClung.
如果你经常上网，就会知道有些话题是跑者们喜欢争论的，而且你可能不知道该信谁。
If you spend any time on the Internet, then you know there are some topics that we runners love to debate, and you might not know who to trust.
每个人似乎都有自己坚定的观点。
Everyone seems to have their strongly held opinion.
所以我决定做点什么来解决这个问题。
So I decided to do something about that.
我请来了行业资深人士克里斯·麦克朗，在播客中聊聊这些热门话题，从二区纯粹主义到那句经典的话——慢跑才能跑得快。
I've got industry veteran Chris McClung on the podcast to talk about many of these hot topics from Zone two purism to the classic phrase, run slow to run fast.
我们会探讨步行带来的好处和局限，为什么我负重行走、拥有一个重量背心却仍然认为它不太有用，以及世界马拉松大满贯赛事是否是最适合冲击个人纪录的环境。
We're gonna explore the benefits and limitations of walking, why I ruck and own a weight vest and still think it's not very useful, and whether World Marathon Majors are the best environments for PR attempts.
克里斯是一位出色的教练，他与个人和团体合作，并且在带领全球跑步旅行方面有着令人难以置信的经历。
Chris is a phenomenal coach who works with individuals and groups and has had incredible experiences leading running trips around the world.
他是《Running the Rogue Way》的作者，也是《Running Rogue Podcast》的主持人，之前还与卡拉·古彻和德斯·林登共同主持过《Clean Sport Collective Podcast》。
He is the author of Running the Rogue Way, host of the Running Rogue Podcast, and he was previously the cohost of the Clean Sport Collective Podcast with Kara Goucher and Des Linden.
在我们开始今天的节目之前，请对我们的合作伙伴表达一些爱意，是他们让这一切成为可能。
Before we start today's show, please give some love to our partners who help make it all possible.
我们得到了CEP Running的支持，这是一家全球领先的压缩技术公司，帮助你在高强度训练之间更快恢复。
We're supported by CEP Running, a worldwide leader in compression technology that helps you recover faster in between hard workouts.
使用代码LRL-NYC-15，你可以在整个订单上节省15%。
Save 15% on your entire order with code LRL dash n y c dash one five.
现在我想问你，你见过我最近在Instagram上分享的那些荧光珊瑚色和紫色的压缩袜吗？
Now I wanna ask you, have you seen me in those neon coral and purple compression socks that I recently shared on Instagram?
我会看起来非常棒的。
I am going to be looking so good.
它们是Core Run Elliptic袜子，压缩评分为20到30，足以有效促进血液循环和恢复。
They are the Core Run Elliptic socks with a compression score of 20 to 30, enough to be effective at promoting blood flow and recovery.
从大学时代起，我就很喜欢压缩的感觉。
Now I've loved the feeling of compression since I was in college.
感觉就像我的双腿被拥抱一样。
It's like my legs are being embraced.
而且，压缩背后的科学及其在帮助恢复方面的有效性是不容忽视的。
And the science behind compression and its effectiveness in helping you recover can't be ignored.
如果你要飞去目的地参加比赛，在飞行途中穿上这些压缩袜子吧。
And if you're flying to a destination race, pop those compression socks on during your flight.
之后你会感觉更好，并且在即将到来的比赛中步伐会更有活力。
You're gonna feel better afterwards and have a little bit more pop in your stride for that upcoming race.
Strength Running播客的听众在CEP Running官网购物时，整个订单可以节省15%，有效期到11月15日。
Strength running podcast listeners can save 15% on their entire order when they shop CEP Running online through November 15.
只需在结账时使用代码LRL-NYC-15。
Just use code LRL dash NYC dash 15 at checkout.
这个代码有点复杂，所以一定要记下来。
Now this code is a doozy, so make sure you write that down.
就是LRL-纽约-15，或者通过我们节目笔记里的链接购买。
It's LRL dash NYC dash 15 or shop through the link in our show notes.
非常感谢LMNT对本集的支持。
A big thanks to LMNT for their support of this episode.
LMNT是一种高钠、无糖、无人工成分、无人工颜色的电解质补充剂，我经常使用。
LMNT is a high sodium, no sugar, no artificial ingredient, and no artificial color electrolyte supplement that I use all the time.
他们在drinklmnt.com/strengthrunning提供免费赠品，而且不限于首次购买。
They're offering a free gift with your purchase at drinklmnt.com/strengthrunning, and this does not have to be your first purchase.
你会收到一个包含所有口味的样品包，这样你可以在决定最喜欢哪个之前先试一遍。
You'll get a sample pack with every flavor so you can try them all before deciding what you like best.
还有个大消息，他们的最新口味柠檬酸盐现在永久上市了，这已经成了我最喜欢的口味。
And double big news, their newest flavor lemonade salt is now permanently available, and this has now become my favorite flavor.
他们还提供12盎司的碳酸元素水，其钠含量是普通包的一半。
They're also offering 12 ounce cans of sparkling element water that has half the sodium of a typical packet.
所以不管你是跑步时补充能量，还是跑步后享受一杯气泡水，LMNT都能满足你的需求。
So whether you're fueling during a run or you're enjoying a sparkling beverage post run, LMNT has you covered.
现在，LMNT的产品钠含量非常高，每包高达一千毫克。
Now LMNT's products have some of the highest sodium concentrations that you can find at a thousand milligrams per packet.
任何经常跑步或出汗量大的人都知道，钠以及其他电解质，比如镁和钾，对我们的表现和一天中的感受至关重要。
Anybody who runs a lot or has a high sweat rate knows that sodium as well as other electrolytes like magnesium and potassium are essential to our performance and how we feel throughout the day.
LMNT是我最喜欢的补水方式，我已经养成了在丹佛和博尔德附近的团体跑步中分发整盒LMNT的习惯，大家都非常喜欢这东西。
LMNT is my favorite way to hydrate, and I'm in the habit of giving away just boxes of LMNT at group runs around Denver and Boulder, and everyone loves this stuff.
用LMNT提升你的表现和恢复。
Boost your performance and your recovery with LMNT.
他们是美国举重队的独家补水合作伙伴，而且不少职业棒球、曲棍球和篮球球队都在定期订阅。
They are the exclusive hydration partner to Team USA Weightlifting, and quite a few professional baseball, hockey, and basketball teams are on regular subscriptions.
去drinklmnt.com/strengthrunning看看吧，你会得到免费的样品包，并为即将到来的赛季优化你的补水。
Check them out at drinklmnt.com/strengthrunning, and you'll get that free sample pack and get your hydration optimized for your upcoming season.
我们开始吧。
Here we go.
克里斯，欢迎回到我们的播客。
Chris, welcome back to the podcast.
我们刚才还在聊呢。
We were just talking.
已经过去七年多了。
It's been a little over seven years.
真是不可思议。
It's crazy.
我觉得在我脑子里，世界被分成了疫情前和疫情后。
You know, I feel like the world is divided in my head between pre pandemic and post pandemic.
就我记忆里的事件来说，我没想到我们上次聊天是在疫情前，但确实如此，而且已经太久了。
You know, in terms of events that I've cataloged in my brain, and I don't think I would have been able to predict that that was pre pandemic that we last chatted, but sure enough was, and that's been too long.
确实很久了。
It's been a very long time.
我很高兴能和你聊，因为我们是两位教练，准备深入探讨跑步圈里常见的一些想法。
I'm excited to chat with you because we are, you know, two coaches who are about to just dive into a lot of the ideas that are common in the running community.
其中有些是迷思。
Some of them are myths.
有些是过度简化的说法，我们要深入探讨这里非常流行的一些不同观点。
Some of them are oversimplifications, and we're gonna get into the weeds here with all kinds of different ideas that are very prominent here.
我们有一整份清单。
We have a whole list.
所以也许我们可以从我最喜欢的一个开始，那就是“慢跑才能跑得快”。
So maybe we can start with one of my favorites, which is run slow to run fast.
这个说法很棒，因为它确实有几分道理。
This is this is a great one because there's shades of of truth to this.
这里面包含了一些非常好的建议，你需要稍微深入挖掘一下。
There's some really great advice embedded within here that you sort of have to unpack a little bit.
所以我……
So I...
我很想听听你的想法，这里的真相是什么？
I'd love your thoughts on, you know, where is the truth here?
我们应该如何更好地理解跑步圈里这个非常流行的口号呢？
How should we better understand this very common slogan in the running community?
我想先从整体上退一步说，我们今天要讨论的这些主题，我觉得都是你在外面能看到的东西。
I mean, I would start just by backing up and saying, you know, in general, the themes that we're gonna talk about today, I think, are things that you see out there.
我对现代媒体、社交媒体感到困扰的一点是，人们喜欢简短有力的句子，喜欢耸人听闻的观点和过度简化，因为这似乎是人们注意力能承受的。
And one of the struggles I have with modern kind of media, social media is that people love sound bites and they love hot takes and oversimplifications because that seems to be what people's attention spans can handle.
所以你会看到网上有很多关于像这样一句话的争论……
And so you'll get a lot of these debates online about phrases like this one that...
然后人们会各执一词，你会看到非常好的教练持不同观点。
And people take sides, you know, and you'll see very good coaches take different sides.
嗯，这是真的。
Well, it's true.
这不是真的。
It's not true.
到最后，我总是想，如果他们都能坐在一个房间里真正辩论一下，他们很可能会得出相同的结论。
And in the end, I always think, well, if they all got in a room and started actually debating it, they would probably end up in the very same place.
就像心率那个争论一样。
Similar to similar to this heart rate debate.
我不知道你有没有关注上周在X平台上的讨论，关于心率在跑步教练中是否重要，我们也许可以稍后聊到那。
I don't know if you followed last week on on the the X platform about whether heart rate was relevant in in run coaching and we can maybe get to there at some point.
但这个挺有意思的。
But this one's interesting.
这个说法很贴近我的想法，因为它基本上符合我的理念，那就是你必须大部分时间轻松跑，这样才能有机会跑快，在需要的时候按下快速键，创造正确的平衡和极化，让你的训练全部协调起来。
This one hits close to home because it does align generally with the philosophy that I believe in, which is that you have to mostly run easy in order to enable the opportunity for you to run fast and press on the fast levers when you need to, to create the right balance and polarization to make your training all fit together.
但我确实认为，这个说法有时被过度简化了，好像慢跑让你变快，但实际上，慢跑本身并不是让你变快的原因。
But I do think the oversimplification that sometimes wins with this phrase is that going slow makes you faster, but the slow part isn't actually what makes you faster.
慢跑是让你能够做那些让你变快的工作。
The slow part is what enables you to do the work that makes you faster.
你需要的训练量，高强度训练，适当数量的步幅训练来发展速度。
The volume that you need, the high end workouts, the appropriate amount of strides to work on speed development.
所以它让你能够触及那些更快的元素，从而整体上变得更快。
So it enables the ability for you to hit on the faster elements so that you can overall get faster.
它还能让你完成维持速度所需的跑量。
It also allows you to do the volume you need to sustain speed.
我觉得有意思的是，有时候聊到精英跑者，你会听到一些简化的说法，比如有人说，哦，他冲刺能力特别强。
You know, I I think it's interesting sometimes you'll hear simplifications when you're talking about elite running where someone will say, oh, he just has a really big kick.
他会赢是因为他冲刺能力强。
He's gonna win because he has a big kick.
嗯，他可能确实在比赛后半段能加速，但这不仅仅来自速度，还来自力量，有氧力量。
Well, might have the ability to access speed late in race, but that's coming not just from speed, it's also coming from strength, aerobic strength.
所以即使累了也能维持速度，这背后是大量的轻松跑量，支撑着很多更快的训练。
So the ability to sustain speed even when you're tired and that comes from a lot of easy volume that's underlying a lot of faster work as well.
所以是两者的结合。
So it's the combination.
不是二选一，而是两者都要。
It's not either or it's yes and.
而且我觉得，尤其是在一个对马拉松和半程马拉松距离特别着迷的世界里，我们就是在这个世界里生活和执教的。
And I think particularly in a world that's very fascinated with the marathon distance, with the half marathon distance, that's a world that we live in and coach in.
人们还忘了，他们得练五公里、十公里，甚至偶尔跑个一英里，这样才能在更长距离上跑得更快。
People forget to that they have to work on the five k distance, the 10 k distance, maybe even race a mile every now and then in order to enable your ability to run faster at the longer distances as well.
所以不是二选一，而是两者都要。
So it's not either or it's yes and.
你需要轻松跑，才能支撑起那些真正让你变快的速度训练。
You need easy running to enable you to do the faster work that does actually make you faster.
克里斯，你提到了跑一英里。
And Chris, you brought up racing a mile in there.
你真是说到我心坎里了，这是我经常谈的话题。
You're a man after my heart, something I talk about all the time.
我喜欢看到跑者能涉足那些中距离比赛。
I love it when runners can get into some of those middle distances.
我完全同意。
I mean, I'm I'm I'm in complete agreement.
我想说，我觉得人们对这个想法犯的最大错误是，就像你说的，他们认为只有慢跑才能让他们跑得快。
I would say that I I think the big mistakes that people make with this idea is that, like you said, they think that only the slow running is going to then make them fast.
他们也没意识到，就像你说的，你需要一定的跑量，才能从这种轻松跑中真正有所收获。
They also don't realize that, like you said, you need a certain amount of volume with this easy running to to get really anything out of it.
如果你每周只跑10到15英里，而且都是非常轻松的慢跑，那真的不会让你成为一个相当不错的跑者。
If you're only doing 10 or 15 miles a week of very easy slow running, that's not really gonna make you into a a pretty good runner.
当然也无法让你发挥出自己的潜力。
It's certainly not gonna allow you to express your potential.
所以，如果我们能提高这种慢跑的跑量，那就为后续的高质量训练铺平了道路。
So if we can get the volume up of that slower running, it then paves the way for the quality workouts to come.
而且，我要说，如果你讨厌高强度训练，也不是特别追求成绩的跑者，你想每周轻松跑个60、70英里，也许你可以加入一些加速跑。
And look, I will say too, like, if you hate hard workouts and you're not a super performance oriented runner and you wanna run 60, 70 miles a week super easy, maybe you wanna throw in some strides in there.
即使只是这样，你很可能也会跑得相当快。
You're probably gonna get fairly quick too just off of that.
比如，大量轻松跑确实能让你达到相当高的体能水平，但锦上添花的，真正让你从理想角度发挥出自己能力的，是那些高质量的训练。
Like, there there is a something to be said about a lot of easy volume is going to unlock a fairly high fitness level, but the cherry on top, the icing on the cake are those quality workouts that's really gonna going to allow you to express what you you could do, you know, from an ideal perspective.
你可以走得很远，尤其是通过加速跑和跑量。
You you can get a long way, especially with strides and volume.
你知道吗？
You know?
但我觉得，这在一定程度上也取决于你天生的速度。
But I think some of that also manifests because of whatever natural speed you tend to have.
那些天生速度更快、或者更有速度天赋的人，在这种训练方式下会表现得更好，而那些不具备这种天赋的人则不然。
You know, someone who has more natural speed or more talent from a speed perspective is going to thrive off of that kind of training more so than someone who doesn't.
所以，那些没有这种天赋或者没有以某种方式发展出这种能力的人，如果只靠大步幅和跑量，会比那些天生就偏向速度的人更吃力。
So someone who hasn't had that natural ability or who hasn't developed it in some way is going to struggle more on just strides and volume than someone who has a more natural proclivity to the faster end of things.
不过你提到了一个关于跑量的有趣观点。
But you raised up an interesting point about volume.
我觉得这里有一个挺有意思的……
I feel like there's an kind of an interesting...
我们可能有点跑题了。
And and we maybe we digress a little bit here.
当今世界关于跑量有一个有趣的争论，就是多少算太多，多少算足够。
Interesting debate about volume in the in the world today about what's too much, what's enough.
如果有人来找你，比如一个新客户，问你‘我每周应该跑多少英里？’，你会怎么说？
What do you say to someone who comes to you and and maybe as a new coaching client and they're like, how many miles a week should I be running?
这可是个价值百万的问题。
That's the million dollar question.
确实挺难回答的。
I mean, it's it's challenging.
我确实认为，某些里程数适合某些类型的人和某些比赛。
I I do think there's certain mileage levels which lend themselves to certain types of people and certain races.
所以，如果你是个26岁的小伙子，训练马拉松，又没有家庭负担，我更可能给你增加跑量，因为你的生活有空间。
So if you're a 26 year old guy and you're training for a marathon and you don't have a family, I'm gonna be much more likely to layer on the volume for you because you have the space in your life.
所以这在一定程度上取决于这些因素。
And so it partly depends on that.
我总体上相信……
I think I'm a general believer in...
对大多数成年跑者来说，跑得多通常更好。
For most adult runners, more is usually better.
而且这指的是有策略地增加里程。
And that does mean strategic more.
是逐步增加。
It means gradual more.
同时也是有上限的增加。
It also means more up to a point.
你说得对。
You're right.
如果你来找我，你每周跑80英里，我们可能不会增加更多里程。
If you come to me and you're running 80 miles a week, we we may not do more volume.
我们可能会更策略地安排这些里程。
We may be more strategic with that volume.
但根据我的经验，大多数成年跑步者每周大约跑30英里，上下浮动20%。
But in my experience, most adult runners are running somewhere around 30 miles a week, give or take 20%.
大多数跑步者的训练量通常都在20到40英里这个范围内。
You know, it's like that 20 to 40 mile range where most runners are are finding their training to be most of the time.
这给增加里程留下了很大的空间。
That leaves a lot of room for more mileage.
即使把习惯每周跑30到35英里的人，在备战下一次比赛时，把峰值周提升到45英里左右，我认为也能带来非常好的效果。
You know, even taking someone who's comfortable at, you know, 30, 35 miles and getting up to maybe 45 miles for, you know, their peak week during training for their next race, I think can have really fantastic outcomes.
而且通常来说，增加每周总里程比在没有大量轻松跑基础的情况下安排高强度训练，受伤风险要小。
And usually, increasing overall weekly mileage is less of an injury risk than given big workouts when you don't have the foundation of all that easy running ahead of time.
所以，这确实是个棘手的问题，因为真的因人而异。
So, yeah, I mean, it's a tricky question because it it really does depend on the individual.
这取决于你的训练历史，以及你之前达到过什么水平。
It depends on your training history, where you've been at previously.
如果你以前跑过更高的周里程，但已经一两年没达到那个水平了，我们可能能比那些从未有过这种里程经验的人更快地回到那个水平。
You know, if you've previously run higher mileage weeks, but you haven't gotten there in a year or two, we can probably get back there a little bit more quickly than someone who has never had experience with those mileage levels.
我也是那种……
I'm also someone who...
不太坚持所有跑量都必须来自跑步本身的人。
Who's not very adamant that all the volume has to come from running itself.
所以如果你容易受伤，比如你是铁人三项运动员，那这里可能有很多很好的机会来做大量的交叉训练，因为我觉得这样风险很低，而收益却很高。
So if you're injury prone, if you're a triathlete, for example, there's probably some really good opportunity here for doing a lot of extra cross training because there, I think the risk is very low while the benefit is really high.
所以对我来说，这是一个很好的方法，比如说，在长跑后的第二天，也就是周日，做一次大的骑行训练。
And so this to me is is a wonderful way to, you know, for example, let's do a big cycling session on Sunday, the day after your long run.
我喜欢这个策略，因为它基本上就是模仿很多超跑选手会做的连续长跑策略，只不过不是两次跑步。
I love this strategy because it's basically like modeling the back to back long run strategy that a lot of ultra runners will do, except it's not two runs.
而是一次长跑，然后一次长骑行。
It's a long run and then a long bike ride.
你没有受到冲击。
You're not getting the impact.
你的腿部没有承受同样的压力，但你得到了很好的有氧压力，这相当于第二次长跑。
You're not experiencing the same amount of stress on your legs, but you're getting a wonderful aerobic stress that is is akin to a second long run.
所以有很多方法可以解决这个问题，让你达到更高的里程。
So there's lot of ways that we can sort of, you know, skin this skin this cat here and and get you to higher mileage.
但总的来说，更多通常更好。
But generally speaking, more is is generally better.
这基本上就是我的基本思路，但这里面有很多需要注意的地方和细微差别。
That that is kind of my very basic approach, but there's a lot of caveats and nuances
关于这一点。
to that.
当然。
Of course.
我喜欢说，里程越多越好，前提是你能够从这些里程中恢复过来，这就是你提到的那个注意事项。
I like to say more mileage is better to the extent that you can recover from that mileage, you know, which is kind of the caveat that you're talking about.
而且大多数时候，人们能做的比他们想象的要更多。
And and most of the time people can do more than they think.
你知道，经常有人来找我，他们会说，我一周不能跑五天，我会受伤的。
You know I have people coming to me all the time and they'll say well I can't run five days a week I'll get hurt.
那通常是因为他们没有合理安排每一天的训练。
And that's usually because they're balancing the days in the wrong way.
他们在恢复日的训练强度不够低，没有做到足够的极化训练。
You know, they're not polarizing enough on their recovery days.
他们总是跑得太快，所以随时都处在受伤的边缘。
They're running too fast all the time which is therefore leaving them on the edge of injury at any moment.
所以在这种情况下，是的，他们确实无法每周跑五天，但如果他们能适当地进行极化训练，他们就能做到。
And so in that situation, yes, they can't do five days but if they polarize appropriately, they can get it done.
从总里程的角度来看，我喜欢用的一个基准是让人们看看他们的年度里程数，现在用Strava、Garmin、Chorus这些应用来追踪简直太容易了。
The benchmark I like to use from a total volume perspective is just having people look at their annual volume numbers which is just so easy to track these days with Strava and Garmin and Chorus apps and whatever else.
因为这样你就能从整年的角度看到自己有多稳定，或者看过去十二个月的情况，而我希望人们长期追求的一个基准是，你能不能达到一年跑2000英里？
Because then you can see from an overall year perspective how consistent am I or trailing twelve months and a benchmark I like to see people aspire to over time is can you get to 2,000 miles a year?
也许你还没准备好做到这一点。
Maybe you're not ready to do that.
也许你现在跑800英里，明年需要跑到1000英里，要达到那个目标需要一个过程。
Maybe you're doing 800 and next year you need to go to a thousand and there's a journey to get to that point.
但如果有人能平均每周跑40英里，坚持52周，那通常就能让他们处于一个很好的位置，真正开始发挥自己的潜力。
But if somebody can get to averaging 40 miles a week for fifty two weeks, then that usually puts them in a pretty good place to really start to see their potential.
这真是个很好的观点。
That's that's a really good point.
而且你提到了一个我好像从没说过的事情，就是我同意你的看法，我觉得大多数跑者能做的比他们自己以为的要多。
And and you brought up something that that I don't think I've ever mentioned, which is that I agree with you that I think most runners can do more than what they think they can do.
而他们做不到的很多原因，其实是害怕受伤。
And a lot of the reasons why they don't is a fear of injuries.
这是我在教练生涯中一直遇到的情况，从我2010年开始做教练起就是这样。
That that is a constant that I have experienced in my coaching practice going back since I started coaching in 2010.
所以这确实是跑者们一个很大的恐惧。
So it's it's definitely a big fear that runners have.
但就像你说的，如果你能聪明地、有策略地分配训练量，考虑强度、生活方式、睡眠、压力、工作、家庭这些因素，那么几乎总是可以做到每周跑五天，把周跑量提高到40英里以上。
But like you said, if you can be smart and strategic with how that volume is distributed, what you're doing in terms of intensity, you know, considering the lifestyle issues, sleep, stress, work, family, all that stuff, then it's almost always possible to run five days a week and to get that volume up to over 40 miles a week.
只要分配得当，这个训练量其实非常容易管理。
It's it's just a very manageable training load once you get the distribution of it correctly.
还有，克里斯，我最近发现了一件我职业生涯里的纪念品。
And I have to add, Chris, I recently found an artifact of my competitive career.
你刚才说到年度跑量。
You're talking about annual mileage levels.
这是两张钉在一起的纸。
This is two sheets of paper stapled together.
每张纸分成五列。
Each paper is divided into five columns.
每一列下面是一个日期，代表一周，以及那一周我跑的英里数。
Down each column is a date representing a week and the number of miles I ran that week.
这大概跨越了八年。
And this spans, like, eight years.
每张纸五列，两张纸钉在一起。
Five columns for each sheet of paper stapled together.
我以前会记录每周、每月、每年的里程。
I used to track weekly mileage, monthly mileage, annual mileage.
我很高兴你提到年度里程，因为这是一个长期的视角，它常常让跑者不去追求某个任意的周里程数，说实话，一周其实挺短的。
And I like that you brought up annual mileage because it's such a long term view of volume, and it often prevents runners from trying to reach some arbitrary mileage number for a given week, which which is kind of a short period of time if we're honest.
只有七天。
It's only seven days.
你的身体其实分辨不出49英里和51英里的差别。
Your body doesn't really know the difference between 49 miles and 51 miles.
所以很多时候，跑者会想，让我多跑一两英里，好达到这个基准。
So a lot of the times runners are like, let me let me try to get in that extra one or two miles so I can reach this benchmark.
而这时候，你往往就容易有点过度了。
And that's when you can often overreach a little bit.
因为这样，你会多出一些小伤病。
You you get extra niggles because of that.
但如果你从月度里程或年度里程的角度看得更长远一些，往往更容易实现大的跑量突破，而不用纠结于每天、每周的里程增加。
But if you think a little bit more long term in terms of monthly mileage or annual mileage, it's often a lot easier to hit big volume PRs without chasing the day to day, week to week increases in mileage.
而且这也能让你保持对年度一致性的关注，因为我有时会看到一种模式，就是人们为了一场赛事而训练。
And it also keeps the perspective on the annual consistency because one pattern I sometimes see is people build up to a race.
他们非常坚持。
They're very consistent.
他们做了所有该做的训练。
They're doing all the work.
他们按计划训练，然后中间有两三个月的空档。
They're following their plan and then they have a two or three month gap.
这倒不是说比赛后你不该逐渐恢复、适当休息，但他们往往休息三个月，然后又报名下一场比赛重新开始。
And that's not to say you shouldn't come off of a race and rebuild gradually and have an appropriate break, But they'll have a three month break and then they'll sign up for another race and start again.
这样一来，你就失去了三个月的连续性，长期来看，这些大空档会变得非常关键。
And so you're losing three months of consistency in some form that becomes really formative over the long term when you're missing those big gaps.
我们接着聊聊二区吧，这个也特别有意思，你会发现有些跑者会说必须待在二区。
Let's let's move over to zone two because this is another really fun one that you either are gonna find runners saying that you gotta stay in zone two.
二区是最重要的区域，或者说二区没那么重要。
Zone two is the most important zone or zone two isn't that important.
你从一区也能获得同样的好处。
You you can get the same benefits from zone one.
三区也完全没问题。
Zone three is just fine too.
既然一、二、三区都是有氧区，我们到底该怎么理解它们呢？
I mean, how are we supposed to wrap our heads around zones one, two, three when they're all aerobic?
它们都有各自的价值，而且似乎每个人对此都有非常强烈的看法。
They all have some value, and it seems like everyone has some really strong opinions about it.
我觉得这是社交媒体上最容易被过度简化的领域之一。
Now I think this is one of my favorite social media oversimplification spaces.
原因之一是，有人说二区，另一个人也说二区，但他们可能说的不是一回事。
One of the reasons being because somebody will say zone two and and somebody else will say zone two and they might be talking about different things.
艾伦·卡曾斯，不知道你今天有没有看到，他重新发布了他以前在X上的一条帖子。
You know, Alan Cousins, I don't know if you saw today, he reposted an old x post of his.
艾伦·卡曾斯是科罗拉多斯普林斯的一位教练，我想他会很大程度上同意我们刚才关于里程的讨论。
Alan Cousins is a coach out of Colorado Springs who I think would agree with a large part of our discussion that we just had on mileage.
他谈到了人们根据最大心率百分比来定义二区的四种不同方式。
And he was talking about four different ways that people define zone two as a percentage of max heart rate.
所以部分问题在于，有不同的看法和定义，一个人说的二区可能是另一个人的三区或一区。
And so part of it is there's just, there's different ways to view it, different definitions and what one person is saying zone two might be somebody else's zone three or zone one.
所以我认为这造成了很多困惑。
And so that I think creates a lot of confusion.
然后当然还有那些长寿专家说，二区就是关键所在。
And then of course you have the longevity gurus that are saying, well, two is is where it's at.
那是长寿的关键。
That's the key to longevity.
我非常相信，有氧的、低强度的有氧训练量是长寿的催化剂。
And I'm a big believer in the fact that aerobic, low intensity aerobic volume is a longevity producer.
但我认为，我难以接受的是人们把二区单独拿出来，说它要么就是一切，要么就什么都不是，因为真正重要的是你做的训练范围，以及用正确的方式去平衡所有这些。
But I think I struggle with people isolating it to zone two saying that's either everything or nothing at all because it's really the range of work that you're doing it in the right ways to balance it all.
对大多数跑者来说，尤其是新手跑者，如果我们用区域术语来说，依我看，他们大多数时候其实应该在一区，强度甚至更低。
And for most runners, especially newer runners, if we're, if we're using the zone terminology, most of them in my perspective should actually be in zone one most of the time at an even lower intensity.
如果你在骑车，并且你处于一个大家都能认同的二区，那和跑步的二区相比，对身体造成的物理冲击强度是完全不同的。
If you're doing cycling and you're in a zone two that you can agree on, it's a very different level of intensity in terms of physical pounding on the body than zone two running.
所以在我看来，大多数人大部分时间应该待在一区，偶尔穿插一些二区和三区的轻松跑。
And so in my mind, most people should be hanging out in Zone one most of the time sprinkling in some Zone two and Zone three with their easy running.
然后当然还有四区和五区，少量地用于高质量训练。
And then of course Zone four and Zone five, you know, very small doses for quality.
所以这个话题感觉大家都在各说各的，意思都不一样，还总想下一些大而化之的结论，把身体的运作方式过度简化了。
So it's just a topic that feel like everybody's kind of talking at each other, meaning different things, and trying to make big grand statements that are oversimplifying how the body actually works.
我把二区看作轻松跑真正含义的一部分。
I mean, I I look at Zone two as one part of what easy running really is.
你知道吗？
You know?
它包含一些一区。
It includes some zone one.
也包含一些三区。
It includes some zone three.
对新跑者来说，一区可能真的很难跑进去。
Zone one is probably gonna be really hard for new runners to run-in.
他们很可能会跑出一区，结果发现自己跑到了三区。
You know, they're probably gonna escape zone one and find themselves probably into zone three.
而精英跑者可能得稍微用力一点才能进入二区，因为他们的有氧系统太发达了。
Whereas the elite runner is probably gonna have to push a little bit to get into zone two because their aerobic system is so developed.
所以甚至……
So even...
这甚至取决于你的体能水平。
It even depends on your fitness level.
对于新手跑者来说，一分钟内他们就会进入三区或四区。
The newer runner, you know, within a minute, they're gonna be in zone three or four.
他们没有足够的有氧基础，无法在一区或二区低强度下舒适地跑。
You know, they they don't have the aerobic development to run comfortably in zone one or low zone two.
而对于非常高级的运动员来说，情况正好相反，他们需要稍微努力一点才能进入二区高强度区间。
And the opposite is true for a very advanced athlete who is is, you know, gonna be pushing a little bit to get into, you know, that high zone two place.
而且我一直认为，心率区间并不能完全反映你从一次训练中获得了什么，因为我作为教练，往往会非常关注伤病，可能是因为我自己曾经是个很容易受伤的跑者。
And I always think that zones are such an incomplete picture of what you're getting out of a training session because, you know, I I tend to be a coach that thinks about injuries a lot probably because I was a very injury prone runner.
所以当我看到跑者在轻松跑或训练中跑得太快，超出了他们应该处于的区间时，我不一定只会认为这是一个有氧问题，比如“哦，我们没有获得这次训练的有氧收益”。
And so when I when I see a runner running too fast in easy runs or workouts and escaping the zones that they should be in, I don't necessarily just think that's like an aerobic problem where, oh, we're not getting the aerobic benefit of this workout.
我还会考虑那些较快跑步带来的冲击和机械压力，因为这才是轻松跑的真正意义所在。
I also think about the impact and mechanical stress of those faster runs because that's really the point of going easy.
保持在第一或第二区间，是为了把机械压力控制得足够低，这样你过一两天回来做更难的训练时，不会感到酸痛。
Staying in zone one or two is we need to keep the mechanical stress low enough so that when you come back in a day or two to do a harder workout, you're not sore.
不会感到疲劳。
You're not fatigued.
你确实有精力，而且你的腿感觉良好，足以达到你在那次训练中应该达到的配速和强度。
You actually have the energy and and, you know, your legs are feeling good enough to hit the paces and the efforts that you should be hitting in that workout.
所以我觉得，不管你在轻松跑中处于哪个区间，我们还必须考虑你的腿正在承受什么样的冲击压力，因为这会影响你接下来一两天、三天的感受。
And so I feel like no matter what zone you're in on an easy run, we also have to be thinking about what kind of impact stress are your legs experiencing because that's gonna affect how you're feeling in the next one, two, three days.
而且我认为，这几乎和你在高第一区间、中第二区间还是低第三区间一样重要。
And it's, I think, almost just as important as, you know, are you in high zone one or mid zone two or low zone three?
就像，对，它们都有益。
It's like, yeah, they're all beneficial.
但我在训练中想让很多跑者，尤其是新跑者，尝试的另一件事是——我不知道克里斯，这是不是你喜欢在教练中采用的策略——我确实喜欢骑上自行车，然后叠加一大堆第一区间，因为这通常是基础建设的有氧练习，在训练的基础阶段非常有用。
But, you know, the other thing that I that I I try to get a lot of runners to to do in their training is, especially if they're a newer runner, and I don't know if, Chris, this is a strategy that you like to employ in your coaching, which is I do like to get on the bike and just layer on a whole bunch of zone one because that's often the the base building aerobic exercise that comes in really handy in the base phase of training.
如果你是新手跑者，这真的很难做到。
That's really hard to get if you're a new runner.
所以如果我们能从骑车、水中跑步或者椭圆机上获得大量的有氧训练，因为这些方式更容易保持在第一区间，我觉得这种双重策略挺好的，比如，是的，我们要跑步。
So if we can get a lot of that aerobic development from cycling or pool running or the elliptical where it's so much easier to stay in zone one, I think having that that that double strategy of like, yeah, we're gonna run.
我们会保持轻松。
We're gonna keep it easy.
这很主观，但你可能会在第二或第三区间。
That's very subjective, but you're probably gonna be in zone two or three.
那可能没问题。
That's probably fine.
而且我们会给你很多第一区间的骑车或其他交叉训练，我觉得这两者之间是个很好的平衡。
And we're gonna give you a lot of zone one cycling or other cross training that I think is a really nice balance between the two.
交叉训练是个很好的策略。
Cross training is a great strategy for that.
我也觉得，对于你提到的新手运动员难以保持在那个区间，他们中的大多数人需要走路，或者结合走路和跑步，如果他们出去跑步的话，这样才能保持在适合他们当前水平的努力区间。
I also think mixing the walk run, you know, you you talk about newer athletes struggling to stay there and most of them need to be walking or doing a combination of walking and running if they're out trying to run-in order to stay in the effort zones that are gonna be appropriate for where they are.
这可能有点伤自尊，但这是最快达到目标的方法，这就是事实，有时候需要结合走路和跑步。
And that can be hard on the ego, but it's it's the fastest way to get where you wanna go and that's the hard truth of it is sometimes mixing walk running.
我现在有一个运动员，她因为手术之后重新开始训练，我们就是这么做的。
I'm working with an athlete right now who's kind of starting over after surgery and that's what we're doing.
我们从两分钟跑步、八分钟步行开始。
We started with two, eight.
两分钟跑步，八分钟步行，随着她体能逐渐恢复，我们慢慢调整这个比例。
Two minutes of running, eight minutes of walking and she's gradually shifting that mix as her fitness develops.
虽然这很难，需要非常耐心，但这是让她最快达到目标的方式。
And that's the fastest way to get her where she wants to go even though it's hard and you have to be really patient with it.
我觉得关于心率区间的争论还有一个问题，就是它预设了你真的知道自己的心率区间。
I think the other challenge with the zone debates is that it presupposes that you actually know your zones.
所以先不管定义，就算你同意某个定义，你仍然需要做适当的测试，了解你的最大心率，才能真正知道你的心率区间。
So forget forget the definitions, you know, if you agree on a definition, you still need to get appropriately tested to understand what your max heart rate is so that you can actually know your zone.
所以去做一次VO2最大测试，用跑步机和面具之类的，是其中的一部分。
So going to do a VO2 max test with a treadmill and a mask and all that good stuff is a part of it.
而且你还需要用一种有效的方式来追踪它。
And you also need to be tracking it in a way that's helpful.
我觉得，用Garmin或KOROS这类设备基于心率来监测，相对而言是个有效的工具，但并不是绝对精确的追踪设备，也不一定能提供很高的准确性。
Know, risk based heart rate using the Garmin or the KOROS is an effective tool in a relative sense I think, but it's not necessarily an absolute tracking device or or gives you a ton of accuracy.
所以，除了要知道自己的心率区间，还得用一条校准过的合适胸带才行。
So you need to be using an appropriate chest strap that's calibrated in addition to knowing your zone.
而且，要真正根据数据采取行动，还需要掌握足够的信息，这一点我觉得常常被忽略了。
So there's there's more to it too of actually having the information to act on what the data is telling you that I think is the other part of this that often gets left out.
克里斯，你刚才提到你正在合作的那位运动员，她手术后正在恢复，这正好引出了另一个重要的问题。
And you alluded to this, Chris, with the athlete that you're working with, who's coming back after surgery.
那就是心率区间是会随着时间变化的。
But another really important dynamic to zones is that they change over time.
所以，即使你测试过并且对自己的区间很有信心，也不能永远依赖这些区间。
And so once you test it and you're confident in your zones, you can't be confident in those zones forever.
我觉得大概几个月吧，但具体取决于你的训练量、训练强度，以及你是否休息过，这些区间都会随着时间推移而发生变化。
You know, I would say, you know, a couple months, but depending on your training volume, your training intensity, whether or not you're taking time off, those zones are gonna shift and change over time.
所以，当你处理心率区间和心率数据时，你其实是在追逐一个不断移动的目标。
So you're you're always chasing a moving target when you're working with zones and heart rates.
而且，另一部分是你永远不想与底下的努力脱节。
And, you know, and then the other part of it is you don't ever wanna disconnect from the effort underneath it.
我觉得总的来说，在当今世界，我们很难在数据和科技中感受到跑步本身，而不是执着于心率、配速或手表告诉你的任何东西。
You know, I think in general, we struggle in today's world with the data and the tech of feeling the run versus being obsessed with heart rate or pace or whatever your watch is telling you.
虽然这些东西可以成为有用的工具，帮助你围绕努力程度进行三角定位，但你仍然必须倾听自己的身体，知道正确的努力程度是什么，因为如果你的手表没电了，或者你没有手表，你只需要凭感觉去跑，那该怎么办呢？
And while those things can be useful tools and help you triangulate around effort, you still have to listen to your body and know what that right effort is because what are you gonna do if your watch dies or if you don't have your watch and you just need to feel it out.
而且我觉得我们有些人已经失去了对轻松跑应该是什么感觉的把握，这也是很重要的一部分。
And I think we've we've kind of lost track for some of us, we've lost track of how an easy run should feel, which is also an important part of this.
确实如此。
For sure.
我想回到你之前提到的关于步行的话题，这对很多跑者来说是一个很好的策略，但可能对自尊心有点挑战。
And I wanna go back to what you said about walking and how that's a great strategy for a lot of runners, but it might be hard on the ego.
如果你住在我所在的科罗拉多州这样的地方，你不必称之为步行。
If you live in an area like I do in Colorado, you don't have to call it walking.
你可以直接称之为徒步。
You can just call it hiking.
强力徒步？
Power hiking?
然后突然之间，你的自尊心就不会受挫了，你可以真的出去徒步，感觉很好，你可以称之为徒步，拍张漂亮的照片，但没人知道你其实只是在做二区步行之类的。
And then all of a sudden, have like a a non hit to the ego where, you know, you can actually go out for a hike, you can feel good about it, you can call it a hike, you could take a beautiful picture, but but no no one can know that you're actually just out for a zone two walk or something like that.
我喜欢越野跑的那个叫法，不叫走路或徒步，而是叫强力徒步。
I love I love the the branding of trail running where the, you know, instead of calling it walking or hiking, they call it power hiking.
听起来好多了。
It sounds so much better.
然后这听起来……
And then this sounds...
突然听起来像是一个你在比赛中应该使用的有效工具，这确实是事实。
Suddenly sounds like a tool that you should be using to be effective on your race, which is actually true.
感谢CEP Running的支持。
Thank you CEP Running for your support.
他们是全球压缩技术的领导者，我希望你能体验CEP压缩带来的增强血液流动和恢复的好处。
They are a leader in compression technology worldwide, and I want you to experience the enhanced blood flow and recovery benefits of compression with CEP.
我们的播客听众可以在 ceprunning.com 或通过节目笔记中的链接使用代码 l r l dash n y c dash one five 获得整单 15% 的折扣。
Our podcast listeners can get 15% off your entire order with code l r l dash n y c dash one five at ceprunning.com or through the link in our show notes.
嘿。
Hey.
快速插播一下，感谢我们的合作伙伴 LMNT 的支持。
A quick break to thank our partner, LMNT, for their support.
你们应该去看看。
You should check them out.
LMNT 是我最喜欢的补水方式。
LMNT is my favorite way to hydrate.
他们制作了一种美味、无糖、高钠的电解质，非常适合出汗率高或像我一样汗液很咸的跑者。
They make a delicious, sugar free, high sodium electrolyte that's perfect for runners with a high sweat rate or very salty sweat like I have.
如果你也是这种情况，你会需要 LMNT 中包含的全部一千毫克钠。
Now if that's you, you're gonna want all one thousand milligrams of sodium that's included in LMNT.
电解质在帮助你避免脱水、头晕、肌肉 cramps 和整体疲劳方面起着关键作用，尤其是在长跑或锻炼之后。
Electrolytes play a key role in helping you avoid dehydration, dizziness, cramps, and overall tiredness, especially after long runs or workouts.
LMNT被军方、执法部门、专业体育团队使用，而且他们是美国队举重项目的官方补水合作伙伴。
An LMNT is used by the military, law enforcement, professional sports teams, and they're the official hydration partner of Team USA Weightlifting.
在drinklmnt.com/strengthrunning购买任何产品，就能免费获得一份样品包，他们会让你先试遍所有口味，再决定你最喜欢哪种。
Get a free sample pack with any purchase at drinklmnt.com/strengthrunning, and they'll let you try every flavor before you decide what you like best.
那就是drinklmnt.com/strengthrunning，去拿你的免费样品包吧。
That's drinklmnt.com/strengthrunning for your free sample pack.
说到步行和徒步，你想聊聊负重行军。
Speaking of walking and hiking, you wanted to talk about rucking.
我觉得负重行军在过去几年里变成了一种更流行的锻炼方式。
Rucking, I think, became a much more popular form of exercise over the last few years.
我想是因为那些追求长寿的人，他们说这是建立耐久性的好方法，因为你给自己的身体加重，然后你可以进行这种低强度但仍有负重感的锻炼体验。
I I think because of the longevity bros, because they were saying this is a great way to build durability because you're you're weighting your body down, and you can go and you can get this lower intensity, but but still weighted exercise experience.
而且你可以出去走两个小时。
And you can go out there for two hours.
你可以把它变成...
You know, you can make it a...
一种耐力活动。
An endurance activity.
但你觉得这对跑步者来说怎么样？
But what what do you think about this for runners?
这对跑步者来说有效吗？
Is this an effective thing for runners?
我先说说我的偏见。
And I'll say that here's my bias.
第一，我有一个负重背心。
Number one, I have a weight vest.
我有时会用它，但我知道它其实对我的跑步没什么帮助。
I use it sometimes with the understanding that I don't actually think it's helping my running.
我觉得从整体健康角度来看，它对我来说价值不大。
I don't really think it's too valuable for me from a general health perspective.
但话说回来，如果我想让在小区里的散步稍微难一点，让心率每分钟多提高八次，我就会穿上负重背心。
But at the same time, if I wanna make, like, a little neighborhood walk a little bit harder and get my heart rate up eight beats a minute higher, I'm gonna just throw on the weight vest.
我作为跑者的脑子可能也会觉得，这会让第二天感觉有点没劲，因为带着额外10%的体重在身上，我就是没有那种爆发力。不过我很想听听你的想法。
My track brain also probably recognizes this as something that's gonna make me feel a little flat the next day, because I I just don't have the pop walking around with an extra 10% body weight on my body, but I'm curious of your thoughts.
首先，我得退一步说，听着，每个人都需要一种运动习惯，而这种运动习惯对每个人来说不一定是跑步。
So first of all, I gotta back up and just say, look, everyone needs a movement practice and that movement practice isn't necessarily gonna be running for everyone.
这没关系。
And that's okay.
即使我们两个跑步教练在对话。
Even though we've got two running coaches talking to each other.
所以任何能让人们动起来的事情，如果负重行走适合你，那就去做吧。
So anything that gets people out and moving and if that's rucking for you, have at it.
我纠结的是，它是否真的是最有效的有氧运动，这是那些长寿爱好者们……
I struggle with it in the context of it being the most effective aerobic thing you can do, which is what some of the kind of longevity bros and...
感觉就像读了彼得·阿提亚的书，我觉得那本书有很多好的内容，但他似乎非常强调负重行走是锻炼身体的主要方式，我觉得这有点过度了。
I mean, felt like reading Peter Attia's book, which I feel like had a lot of good in it, He seemed very focused on rucking as some sort of primary way of working your body that I felt was overkill.
我敢打赌……
And my bet...
我对它的看法是，我觉得这很美国化——把一件轻松愉快的事情，硬要弄得更难，而且毫无理由。
My issue with it is I feel like it's a very American thing to take something that's easy and enjoyable and try to make it harder for no reason at all.
就像我们只是……
Like we just...
美国人就喜欢这样。
Americans like to do that.
好像我受的苦还不够多似的。
Like I'm not suffering enough.
你会看到跑者做训练时的心态，比如他们会说，我本该做节奏跑，但我能跑更快，所以我就该跑更快。
And you'll see this in mentality of runners doing workouts where they're like, I'm supposed to be doing tempo, but I could go faster so I should.
但结果可能是，你在那次训练中过度拉伸了自己，反而错过了训练的重点。
And yet you might have potentially overstretched in that workout and missed the point of it.
所以我觉得负重行走之于步行，就像那种情况——你可以出去悠闲地散步，这可能就是艾伦·库辛斯所说的“零区”。
And so I feel like rucking is kind of that, you know, with walking where you could go out and get a leisurely walk, which might be in what Alan Cousins calls zone zero.
零区可能不算有氧运动，但它可能有助于调节你的神经系统和新陈代谢，还能促进身体活动和血液循环，这对身体有修复作用，然后能帮你更好地进行下一次跑步或训练。
And zone zero might not be aerobic, but it might be something that helps regulate your nervous system, regulate your metabolism, and also creates movement and blood flow that can be healing and then help you go do that next run or next workout.
所以我就想，为什么我们非得加重量，让它变得更难呢？
And so I'm just like, why do we have to add weight and make it harder?
咱们就继续轻松地走走，继续跑跑步就好了。
Let's just keep walking, walking in leisurely and let's keep running, running.
我们不需要加负重背心来让它更有效，更不用说把它当成有氧运动的终极方式了。
We don't need to add weight vests to make it more effective and certainly not to make it the end all and be all of aerobic exercise.
你觉得……
Do you find...
你觉得负重行军会不会对耐久性有好处？比如说，你带着相当于体重10%到20%的额外重量去丘陵地带徒步。
Do you think there might be a place for some sort of durability gain from rucking or say you go for a hike on hilly terrain with an extra 10 to 20% of your body weight?
这有点像举重吗？
Is this sort of like lifting weights?
这样会不会带来某种生理上的韧性提升？
Are you getting some sort of physiological resilience benefit from from that?
我个人不太相信这个。
I personally don't buy it.
我有点认同亚历克斯·霍诺德的观点。
You know, I I kind of take Alex Honnold's take on this.
有一次他被问到关于负重行军的事，他有点笑了。
He was asked about rucking one time and he kinda laughed.
他说，如果我不需要的话，为什么要往背上加重量呢？
He's like, why would I put weight on my back if I didn't need it?
你懂吧？
You know?
他说，我平时也总是背着东西走，但那是因为我需要随身携带装备去探险。
He's like, I'm walking with stuff on my back all the time, but that's because I need the gear that I'm carrying with me on whatever adventure he's taking.
所以他对这个有点嗤之以鼻。
And so he kind of laughs at it.
我也有同感。
I kind of think of it the same way.
我坚信通过举重、轻松步行和适当的跑步变化来增强耐力。
I'm a big believer in durability through weightlifting, durability through easy walking, durability through the appropriate variations of running.
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所以我在想这个问题的时候，其实挺简单的，我不太相信那种说法，说什么加十磅重量就能带来神奇效果。
And so I'm kind of a simpleton when I when I think of it and don't necessarily buy this idea that that you're somehow doing something magical by adding 10 pounds to your effort.
我觉得到头来，我们可能会认为这对任何为比赛训练的人来说，可能都是净负面的。
I think at the end of the day, we're probably gonna look at this as potentially a net negative for anyone who might be training for a race.
这就是我觉得我们应该在这里做个明确区分的地方，就像你说的，如果你喜欢负重行军，那是你的运动方式，是让你出门的动力，那我们完全不会反对。
And that's where I think we should probably make a good distinction here is, like you said, if you like to ruck and that's your movement practice and that's what gets you out the door, you're not you're not getting any pushback from us.
但如果你有某种表现目标，想打破某个距离的时间，想跑一个从未跑过的新距离，那这……
But if you have some sort of performance goal, you wanna break a time in any distance, you wanna run a new distance that you've never run before, it it...
可能有很多更好的选择，比负重行军更有效、更有策略性。
There may be a lot of better things for you to do that are simply more effective and more strategic than rucking.
但在休赛期作为交叉训练，如果你不是特别追求表现，我想我没什么意见。
But, you know, in the off season as a form of cross training, if you're not super performance oriented, I I guess I don't I don't have any issues with it.
你看，我自己都穿着负重背心跑步呢。
I mean, look at it, I'm running around with a weight vest myself.
如果人们想这样运动，我不觉得有什么问题。
I don't have a problem with it if that's the way people wanna move.
但我会问他们一个问题：背上加十磅负重走三十分钟，和不加负重走一个小时，哪个对你更有好处？
But I would ask them the question, are you gonna get more benefit from walking with 10 pounds on your back for thirty minutes or going for an hour walk without 10 pounds on your back?
哪个带来的好处更多？
Which one's gonna give you more benefit?
我认为从长寿的角度来看，不加负重走一个小时可能对你更好。
And I would submit that from a longevity perspective, the hour walk without the weight is probably better for you.
不过这个我们可以在评论区讨论。
But we can debate that in the comments.
我们可以……
We can...
嗯，这个我们留到力量行走的播客里再说吧。
Well, we'll save that for the strength walking podcast.
没错。
That's right.
你总体上怎么看走路这件事？
What what do you think about walking in general?
你之前有个问题想提出来。
You had you had an issue you wanted to bring up.
走路是精英的运动。
Walking is for elites.
嗯，我其实在Threads上看到过你的一场辩论。
Well, I saw a debate you had actually on threads.
好像是和某个人讨论走路作为精英运动员提升工具的话题，我觉得你在那里和那个人辩论过。
I think it was with somebody talking about walking as being a tool for elite athletes to get better and I think you were debating that with someone there.
所以这个观点就是从那里来的。
And so that's where this one comes from.
而且我也……
But I'm also...
这个领域我其实非常感兴趣和好奇，因为我提到过艾伦·卡曾斯几次。
It's an area where I'm actually very interested and curious because, you know, I've mentioned Alan Cousins a few times.
他是我非常关注的一位教练。
He's a coach that I follow pretty closely.
他的整体理念和我的很一致，就是高训练量的运动员往往表现更好，那怎么才能达到高训练量呢？
His philosophy generally aligns with mine in terms of high volume athletes are are gonna be higher performing athletes and how do you get to be high volume?
这又回到了我们第一个话题，你得先慢下来，才能做更多的量，然后这个量会解锁你做其他能真正让你跑得更快的训练的潜力。
Kind of going back to our first topic, you slow down so that you can do more volume, which then unlocks this potential to do other work that actually makes you faster.
他有一些关于行走的理论，而且似乎把这些理论应用在了即使是精英级别的铁人三项运动员或超耐力运动员身上，他们通过大量行走来增加更多的零区和一区训练，从而在健康可持续的方式下增加整体训练量。
And he has theories about walking and seems to be applications of it in the context of even what would be considered elite level triathletes or ultra man athletes that are doing a heavy amount of walking in order to enable more Zone zero, Zone one work to add to the picture of overall volume in a way that's healthy and sustainable for them.
所以这只是我感兴趣的一个领域。
And so it's just an area where I'm curious.
如果你十年前问我，说，嘿，对于普通的高水平跑步者来说，行走应该放在什么位置？
You know, I would have, if you'd asked me ten years ago, if you'd said, hey, where does walking fit for the average high performing runner?
我会说，它没有位置。
I would have said it doesn't.
但随着我不断学习，自己也年纪渐长，我开始质疑自己原来的那种理念，只是想知道，这是不是一种扩展的方式，再说一次，不用背上那十磅的负重，这是不是一种扩展你有氧训练足迹的方式，可能对你有帮助，或者至少能促进血液循环，帮助恢复，从而支撑你正在做的其他训练量。
But but as I'm learning and getting older myself, I'm starting to question that original philosophy of mine and just wonder, is it a way to expand, again, without the 10 pounds on your back, is it a way to expand the aerobic footprint of what you're doing in a way that might be helpful or at a minimum to create blood flow which helps promote healing, that helps then sustain the other volume you're doing.
这和我们之前讨论的，或者耐力圈子里讨论的塞巴斯蒂安·索韦打破世界纪录、首次跑进两小时后的训练方式，没什么不同。
Not dissimilar to the way that, you know, we talked about, or the kind of endurance community talked about Sebastian Saway's training after he set the world record first kind of sub two.
他们提到他每周跑160多英里，但有些跑每英里9分半，这比他的马拉松配速大约慢每英里5分钟。
They talked about him running 160 plus mile weeks but having some runs in the nine thirty minute per mile range which is five minutes per mile slower than his marathon pace approximately.
人们会想，这对他有什么好处？
And people wondering, well, what is that doing for him?
这是不是让他跑得快的原因？
Is that what is enabling him to run fast?
我的理论是，这就像对三四个小时级别的运动员来说的走路。
And my theory there is that it's kind of like walking for somebody who might be a three or four hour athlete.
就是那种轻松的有氧运动，可能对他来说是零区，用这个术语来说，这有助于促进血液循环，促进恢复，这样他才能完成其他训练。
It's that easy aerobic movement, probably zone zero for him if we're using that as a terminology, that's helping create blood flow, that's promoting healing so that he can then do the rest of the work that he's doing.
所以这更多是我好奇的领域，当然也有一定程度的怀疑。
So it's just an area where I'm kind of curious more than anything, but certainly skeptical at the right level too.
我可能比你更怀疑，但也很好奇，不过我更好奇的是叠加大量低强度训练。
I I would say I'm probably more skeptical than you and and still curious, but I'm more curious about layering on a high volume of low intensity exercise.
我对具体是什么训练不太在意，不管是跑步。
I'm kind of agnostic on what that exercise is, whether it's it's running.
所以你想以每分钟115下的心率去跑。
So you wanna run at, you know, a 115 beats a minute.
你几乎连一区都没到。
You're barely in zone one.
我觉得那挺好的。
I I think that's wonderful.
大量的这种训练对你会有好处的。
High volume of that is gonna is gonna be beneficial for you.
如果你是个跑步者，能通过走路进入一区，那真的很有益。
If you're a if you're a runner who can walk and get into zone one, I think that's really beneficial.
我觉得我开始变得非常怀疑的是，比如那些马拉松跑进三小时的人，或者甚至现在。
I think where I start to become a lot more skeptical is for, like, the three hour marathoner or, you know, even now.
所以，克里斯，我今年42岁。
So, Chris, I'm 42 years old.
我的马拉松个人最好成绩是2小时39分，那还是在超级鞋出现之前，但现在我已经无法触及那个成绩了。
My marathon PR is two thirty nine before super shoes, but I can't touch that time these days.
但即便如此，就算我戴着16磅的负重背心，走路时心率也根本进入不了一区，哪怕我走得很快。
But nevertheless, even with a, you know, 16 pound weight vest, I can't get into zone one at all on a walk even if I'm, you know, really hoofing it.
就算我走得非常快，心率也到不了真正的一区，但第二天还是会觉得有点酸痛。
If I'm, you know, very brisk walk, I cannot get my heart rate into an actual zone one, but I'm kinda sore the next day.
走一个小时，大概能走三英里半，我就会觉得酸痛。
You know, an hour of of walking where I might walk three and a half miles, I'm sore.
所以对于那种很难进入一区的竞技型运动员，我觉得不如去做一些轻松的骑行，因为那样不会有冲击。
So for the more competitive athlete who has trouble getting into, say, a zone one, I would say you're better off doing some easy cycling because you're not gonna get that impact.
你不会因为做了一个小时非常快的步行，第二天腿感觉有点发软、有点紧，而觉得有点酸痛或没精神。
You're not gonna be a little bit sore or flat the next day because you did, you know, an hour of very brisk walking and your legs feel a little flat, a little bit, you know, tight because of that.
所以我觉得这在代谢上真的很好。
So I think it's it's really great metabolically.
我们可以稍微偏离一下关于跑步表现的话题，来谈谈一般健康的好处，而走路对你来说是最好的事情之一。
I mean, we could kinda move away from the performance running side of this conversation and then talk about general health benefits where, you know, walking is one of the best things for you.
我觉得如果你是一个马拉松跑两小时三十分到三小时三十分的人，这可能就不那么有益了，因为你的有氧能力已经相当发达了。
I think it's probably less beneficial if you're a two thirty to three hour, three thirty marathoner because you're pretty pretty highly aerobically developed.
但从代谢的角度来看，我觉得这非常好。
But from a metabolic perspective, I think it's wonderful.
关于一区，我同意你的看法。
And I agree with you on the zone one.
我觉得很多高水平运动员并没有花足够的时间真正把心率维持在一百一到一百一十五之间。
You know, I I don't think enough high performing athletes spend enough time truly hanging out at a 110 to a 115 beats per minute heart rate.
而这样做的好处是，它能解锁很多东西，对吧？
And the thing that that unlocks to me is just there's just so much that it unlocks, right?
比如，能在这个心率下进行长时间轻松的训练，第二天感觉如何，以及接下来能去做更艰难的训练而不受伤，这简直是无价的。
Like being able to go for long easy efforts at that heart rate, how you feel the next day, your ability to then go do the harder thing that you have to do next and not have it cause injury is is just priceless in a sense.
如果你愿意放下自尊，真正以保持这个心率所需的速度去跑，那可能比你的马拉松目标配速慢三分钟。
If you're willing ego ego wise to truly hit the paces that it takes to stay there, you know, which might be three minutes slower than your target marathon pace.
而且大多数时候，人们很难把这样的训练上传到Strava，因为他们在某种程度上会考虑别人的看法，或者有一种执念，觉得要跑得快才能变快。
And most of the time people are struggling to put that on Strava because they, you know, they're at some level thinking about the perception of it or there's this hang up that you have to go fast to get fast kind of thing.
当然，正如我们之前讨论的，快速训练有它的位置，但我认为没有足够多的人花时间在一百一十五这个心率区间，并在那里积累大量的基础训练，因为那绝对会对他们大有裨益。
And certainly, as we've talked about, fast has its place, but I don't think enough people spend time down in that one fifteen beats per minute range and and, you know, plenty of formative time there because that would definitely serve them well.
而且我觉得，特别是对于容易受伤的跑者，作为教练，我会首先关注的一个点就是，你的轻松跑配速是多少。
And I think especially for injury prone runners, this is one of the first things I would look at as a coach is what is the pacing of your easy runs?
而且我几乎总是发现，很多人的轻松跑配速都太快了。
And almost always I find that a lot of them are are simply too quick.
所以，如果我们能把自我放在一边，让这些跑的速度慢下来很多，这就会对应更低的心率，这确实是容易受伤的跑者的一个很好的策略。
And so if we can put the ego to the side and get the pace of those runs a lot easier, which is gonna correspond to a lower heart rate, this is really a great strategy for injury prone runners.
在这个基础上，再加上一点力量训练。
You add in a little bit of strength training to that equation.
这些跑者往往就靠这两个简单的调整，就能好几年不受伤。
And these runners are often, you know, they'll go years without injuries with just those two simple fixes.
如果有人跟你说，你推荐的配速我跑不了那么慢，你会怎么回应？
What do you say when somebody says I can't go that slow if you recommend a pace to them?
问得好。
That's a good question.
我会举一些例子，就像你刚才提到的第一个跑进两小时的人，萨韦，他有时候会用每英里九分三十秒的配速跑。
I mean, I I would bring up examples of like you just did with the first sub two guy, Sawe, and how he sometimes will do runs at nine thirty a mile.
东非的跑者经常以每英里九到十分钟的配速开始他们的跑步，这是很常见的。
I mean, it's it's very common for these East African runners to start their runs, you know, nine, ten minute mile pace.
当然，他们之后会逐渐加快到相当快的配速，但跑步的很大一部分时间，他们的配速比实际马拉松配速慢了好几分钟每英里。
And of course, they progress down to some fairly quick paces, but a big chunk of the run is several minutes per mile slower than their actual marathon pace.
如果这对精英跑者来说足够好，我想这对我们来说也足够好了。
And if if it's good enough for the elites, I think something like this is good enough for us.
他们跑得很慢。
You know, they're going really slow.
我们也可以跑得慢。
We can go slow too.
确实是这样。
It is, yeah.
我通常会说，你觉得不舒服是因为你还不习惯。
The thing I usually say is that it's uncomfortable because you're not used to it.
你知道，你得练习慢跑，就像你得练习跑更快的配速一样。
Know, you gotta practice it just like you have to practice running faster paces.
虽然我没有什么科学依据，但我有个理论：如果你能在慢配速下跑得很高效，那其实能帮你解锁在快配速下可能察觉不到的高效性，因为你的整体动作会变得更经济。
And I don't have any science to back this, but I have a theory that if you can become efficient at slower paces, then I think that actually unlocks efficiency that may be imperceptible at faster paces because you become generally more efficient with your movements.
所以，如果我们跑十分钟一英里的时候效率不高，而你的马拉松配速是七分钟一英里，那就说明七分钟配速下也存在效率问题，只是没显现出来，因为我们跑快的时候往往更高效。
And so if we're inefficient going ten minute miles and your marathon pace is seven minute miles, then that's a sign that there's inefficiency at seven minute miles that's just not showing up because we tend to be more efficient when we're faster.
所以我总是跟人说，你得去练，去琢磨，去坚持。
And so I just tell people, you gotta practice it, work on it, commit to it.
如果你能做到，并且在那样的配速下感到舒服，那不仅能提升快配速下的效率，还能让你在速度训练或长距离跑的时候有更多余力去投入。
And if you can do that and become comfortable there, it'll unlock not only efficiency faster but it'll also unlock the ability to then put more into your speed workouts when they come up or more into your long runs when they come up.
所以这就像其他任何事情一样，关键在于练习，这也让我想到你那三次三英里的步行，让你浑身酸痛。
So it's just a matter of practice like anything else, which would also point me back to your three mile walks that are making you sore.
也许你需要多走几次三英里的路，才能……对，减少酸痛。
Maybe you need more three mile walks to Yeah, be less
也许我就是在诊断一个需要纠正的问题。
maybe I'm just diagnosing an issue that needs to be corrected here.
没错。
Exactly.
就像有人跟我说他们跑了十英里长跑后感到酸痛一样。
It's like when someone tells me that, you know, their 10 mile long run made them sore.
我就会说，那我们就再跑三次吧。
It's like, well, let's let's do it three more times.
没错。
That's right.
对。
Exactly.
对。
Exactly.
我们可以在这方面下功夫。
We can work on that.
当然。
For sure.
好的。
Okay.
咱们来聊聊我最近在社交媒体上引发的一场小风波吧。
Let's talk about a little bit of a social media firestorm that I caused recently.
我说过，如果你在马拉松中追求个人纪录，那么不把世界马拉松大满贯赛事作为目标可能是更明智的策略。
I said that if you are shooting for a PR in a marathon, it might be strategic not to target a World Marathon Major.
那里会有大量的人群。
There's gonna be huge crowds.
你通常还得长途跋涉去参加这些比赛。
You often have to travel to these races.
特别是如果你要去东京、柏林这些地方……
And especially if you're going to Tokyo, Berlin, I mean, there...
有很多选择是你要去海外，要应对巨大的时差变化，排长队上厕所，还有种种后勤上的挑战。
There's many options where you're gonna go overseas, and you're gonna be dealing with big time zone changes, really long lines for the porta potties, and on and on, the logistical challenges of going to these races.
而且据我所知，我的很多跑者去参加伦敦马拉松或柏林马拉松时，这就像是一次一生一次的旅行和体验。
And I know from experience, a lot of my runners when they, you know, go do the London Marathon or they go do the Berlin Marathon, it's kind of a once in a lifetime trip and an experience for them.
所以他们可能想提前做些观光活动，而且他们知道，看吧，这只是体验的一部分。
So maybe they wanna do a couple touristy things ahead of time, and and they know that, look, this is just part of the experience.
我可能不会跑出最快的成绩，但世界马拉松大满贯的魅力就在于那种盛大的氛围。
I'm probably not gonna race as fast as I can, but the magic of a World Marathon Major is is kinda the big hoopla of the whole thing.
你懂吧？
You know?
这是一次很棒的体验，但可能不是跑出最快成绩的最佳选择。
It's a great big experience, but it may not be the best experience for running your fastest.
我觉得大概百分之七八十的人都同意这个观点，但不同意的人非常坚持，说你可以二十四小时飞到柏林，跑出个人最好成绩再飞回来。
And I would say 80% or 70% of people agreed with that, but the people who didn't were really adamant that, you know, oh, you can fly to Berlin in twenty four hours and run a PR and come back.
我就觉得，那可能不是每个人都适合这么做。
And I'm like, well, that just may not be appropriate for everyone.
洛杉矶公羊队去悉尼不就没成功吗？
It didn't work out for the LA Rams going to Sydney, did it?
时差影响表现这个观点已经研究得很透彻了，基本上算是定论了。
I mean, with the whole idea of time zone changes affecting performance is very well studied, and it's kind of settled science at this point.
但我当然好奇，你总是可以给个人最好成绩留点余地。
But I'm curious, you know, of course, you can always leave room for PR.
我从来不想跟人说咱们别追求个人最好成绩了，因为时机不对，除非他们的状态确实不到位。
I never wanna tell someone, you know, let's not go for PR because it's not the right time unless their fitness is not in the right place.
但与此同时，我也很清楚这些大型比赛中跑者面临的真实障碍。
But at the same time, I'm very cognizant of the very real barriers facing runners at some of these very large races.
我最近碰到……
I recently caught...
我跟人聊起另一个运动员的目标时间，我们……
I was talking to somebody about a target time for another athlete that we...
就是芝加哥马拉松快到了，我带的那个运动员。
That I work with at Chicago coming up.
有个人很惊讶，因为我推荐的时间比她可能的潜力慢了大概五分钟。
And this one person was surprised that I recommended a certain time a little bit slower than perhaps her potential by about five minutes.
然后我就提到了“芝加哥税”，就是因为你说的那些情况。
And I, I mentioned the Chicago tax because of exactly what you're talking about.
所有的后勤问题。
All of the logistics.
而且你看，我跑过芝加哥马拉松，那是我2001年的第一场马拉松。
And look, I did Chicago, that was my first marathon in, in 2001.
所以二十五年前，我在芝加哥排队跑我的第一场马拉松，那时候还没有分区。
So twenty five years ago, I lined up at Chicago for my first one and there were no corrals.
只有路边立着牌子，写着：这是你的理论配速，站到这里来。
There were just signs along the side that said, this is your theoretical pace line up here.
开始。
Go.
所以就是……
And so it's just...
那时候大概有三万人，现在超过五万了。
And that was probably 30,000 people, now it's over 50.
所以现在连芝加哥都和以前大不一样了，肯定和二十五年前没法比，但就算和五年前或者疫情前比，也差很多。
So it's just a very different world now even in Chicago than it used to be certainly twenty five years ago, but even five years ago or pre pandemic, we should probably say.
所以我完全同意你的看法。
So I I mean, I 100% agree with you.
这并不是说在芝加哥你就跑不快，但确实有很多因素会阻碍你。
Now that it's not to say you can't run fast at Chicago, but there are definitely a lot of things in your way.
在我看来，关键在于你能掌控多少，又有多少是你无法控制的。
And to me, it's more about how many controllables can you manage versus how many things are out of your control.
在规模较小、后勤更简单、人数更少的比赛中，你能掌控的事情就更多。
In a smaller race that has fewer logistics, that has fewer people, there are more things in your control.
像现在的芝加哥这样的大比赛，尤其是它目前的形式，你无法控制的事情就更多了，马拉松比赛的结果往往会有一定的波动，处于某种范围之内。
In a race like Chicago nowadays, especially in its current form, there's more things out of your control and the marathon and its results tend to fall along some sort of variance, some sort of spectrum.
你的理论体能水平在其中，但也有很多因素会干扰你，导致你的表现偏离那个水平。
You know, your theoretical fitness is in there, but also there's a lot of things coming at you that are going to cause you to do things that are different than that.
在像芝加哥这样的比赛，当然还有波士顿和纽约，不仅有赛道本身的挑战，还有到达起跑线的后勤问题，你无法控制的事情更多，因此变数也更大。
And in a race like Chicago and in certainly in Boston and New York, where you have not only the challenges of the course, but also the logistics of getting to those starting lines, there's just more out of your control and therefore more variability.
所以，指望能跑出完美的比赛就更难了。
And so counting on being able to have the perfect race is just harder to do.
这有可能吗？
Can it happen?
当然。
Sure.
但几率更低。
But the chances are lower.
所以我大体上同意你的看法。
So I generally agree with you.
而且我个人也很喜欢那些规模仍然很大但相对较小的比赛。
And I also personally just love some of these still big but smaller races.
我想你刚才是在说印第安纳波利斯那场。
You know, I think you were commenting about Indy on there.
今年我们带55个人去印第安纳波利斯，参加11月7日即将到来的那场比赛。
You know, we're taking 55 people to Indy this year for for the race coming up here on November 7.
而且那里有……
And, you know, there's...
我不知道具体有多少人，但包括半程和全程在内，总共有一万五到两万人。
I don't know how many people are there, but it's 15 to 20,000 people total, including the half and the full.
还是有很多人跟着跑，给你那种大赛的氛围，但规模可控，让你对结果更有掌控感。
Still plenty of people to to follow chase, give you that vibe of a big race, but it's manageable in a way that you have more control over the outcomes.
我记得我的第一次马拉松，就是纽约市马拉松，那是一场非常大的主要赛事。
You know, I remember back to my first marathon as well, which was the New York City Marathon, which is a very big major marathon.
而且我觉得，部分问题也在于你自己在比赛中觉得怎么舒服。
And, you know, I I think part of the issue too is is what you are personally comfortable with in a race.
比如说，如果我跑一英里、五公里，或者在跑道上、越野赛、短距离公路赛，我就想要非常热烈的粉丝和欢呼。
So for example, if I'm racing a mile, a five k, anything on the track, cross country, short road race, I want really high intensity fans and cheering.
我希望我的朋友们在赛道边上为我疯狂加油。
And, you know, I want my buddies on the side of the course absolutely going crazy for me.
就是，我想要那种强度和兴奋感。
Like, I want that intensity and excitement.
但在马拉松里，我觉得有点让人受不了，因为比赛太长了。
In a marathon, I find it a little bit overwhelming because the race is so long.
我只是……
I just...
我不想在将近三个小时里一直有人对着我大喊大叫。
I don't want people screaming at me for nearly three hours.
这真的太多了，让人受不了。
It's just a lot of it's a lot of overwhelm.
刺激太多了。
It's a lot of stimulation.
所以对我来说，我喜欢安静一点的马拉松，这样我可以稍微放空一下。
And so for me, I like a quieter marathon where I can zone out a little bit.
我可以进入状态，找到节奏，按照计划跑，前一两个小时甚至会觉得有点无聊。
I can just get into a flow, get into the zone, execute the pace, you know, feel just kind of bored a little bit for the first hour or two of of the marathon.
所以我觉得很大一部分是要了解什么能给你能量。
And so I think a big part of it is understanding what gives you energy.
也许那是世界马拉松大满贯赛事。
Maybe that's a World Marathon Major.
也许你喜欢那些令人难以置信的人群和他们给你的支持。
Maybe you love the, you know, the the incredible crowds and the crowd support that they're giving you.
但当我跑纽约市马拉松时，整个比赛过程中人群都有五层深。
But when I ran New York City, you know, and the crowds were five deep for the entire race.
那太疯狂了。
It's insane.
可能只有几座桥在桥顶处人群变稀了，但我已经筋疲力尽了。
Maybe a couple bridges that thinned out at the the peak of the bridge, but I was exhausted.
我感觉自己像是在人群面前表演了一场，我只想找个地方打个盹。
I felt like I had been giving a performance in front of a crowd and I just wanted to go take a nap.
那是我第一次跑波士顿马拉松时的感受，那是2006年。
That's the way I felt at my first Boston, which was 2006.
虽然不像纽约那样全程都是这样，但沿途人群也相当多，尤其是后半程。
And it's not quite New York in terms of that all the way, but you've got pretty good crowds the whole way and certainly over the last half.
我只记得当我到达终点线时，我只想找个安静的地方。
And I just remember thinking when I got to the finish line that I just wanted to find a quiet place.
是的。
Yes.
坐下来，好好沉浸在自己的思绪里，因为第一次的经历让我觉得太震撼了。
To sit and kind of be in my own thoughts because it was it was overwhelming for me in that first one.
所以，是的，我同意。
So yeah, I agree.
而且，这确实是要找到最适合你的方式，以及你喜欢的安排，还有后勤上对你最合适的安排。
And it is about finding what's best for you and what you like to manage and, you know, and also logistically what's right for you.
我觉得芝加哥以前是几大马拉松中后勤上最容易安排的。
I mean, think Chicago used to be the major that was kind of easiest to manage logistically.
但现在我觉得因为规模太大，变得越来越有挑战性了。
And now I think it's more and more challenging because of the size of it.
而且过去几年，我也听人说起在芝加哥的水站或能量胶站，杯子到处都是，让人不堪重负。
And I've also had people over the last couple years talking about just dealing with the water stations at Chicago or the gel stations just becoming overwhelming with cups everywhere.
去年我有一个运动员踩到别人扔的胶包滑倒，扭伤了脚踝，跑了16或17英里后不得不退赛。
And I had an athlete last year slip on a gel packet that somebody tossed and sprained their ankle and had to drop out after 16 or 17 miles.
所以，大型比赛中确实有更多可能出错的地方。
So there's just a lot more that can go wrong in the big races.
这并不是说你在那里跑不快，或者你不应该参加这些比赛，但你必须睁大眼睛，清楚地知道可能会有一些你无法控制的因素，阻碍你实现目标。
And that's not to say you can't run fast there or you shouldn't do them, but you just gotta go in eyes wide open knowing that there may be variables that are outside of your control that could get in the way of what you want.
你提到这些你无法控制的因素。
You talking about these variables that are outside of your control.
每个教练都喜欢谈论如何控制可控因素。
I mean, every coach always loves talking about how to control the controllables.
我因为这个想法受到的一个批评是，你是教练。
One of the the criticisms that I got for this this idea is, well, you're the coach.
你应该做好准备和计划。
You should have prepared and planned.
我真的不知道如何为五万名跑者做计划，如何为我的运动员在比赛开始时在人群中穿梭数英里，或者六到七小时的时差做准备。
And I'm just not entirely sure how I plan for 50,000 runners, how I plan and prepare my athlete for weaving through crowds of runners for miles at the beginning of a race or, you know, a a six or seven hour time change.
比如，你怎么为这种情况做计划？
Like, how do you how do you plan for that?
我只是好奇，作为教练，你会怎么做？
I'm just curious, like, what would you do as a coach?
比如说，你显然得睁大眼睛，看清一切。
Like, you obviously go in eyes wide open.
你得明白，你会遇到这些后勤问题、时差，还有旅途中的饮食变化。
You understand that you're gonna be dealing with these logistics and a time change and you're traveling different food.
像世界马拉松大满贯这种大型目的地赛事，涉及的变量真的相当多。
I mean, the the number of variables for a big destination race like a World Marathon Major are pretty substantial.
那教练在帮助运动员应对这些方面，扮演什么角色呢？
So what's the role of the coach in sort of helping the athlete navigate that?
我觉得很大一部分就是如实告诉他们可能会出什么问题、会有什么突发状况，以及他们怎么尽力去应对。
I think a big part of it is just telling the truth about what can go wrong and what can pop up and how they can do their best to manage those things.
所以我总是和他们一起，睁大眼睛，看清一切。
So I'm always gonna go in eyes wide open with them.
我不会隐瞒这些挑战。
I'm not gonna shield them from the the challenges of it.
那些去柏林参赛的人会来找我，经常问，我该什么时候飞过去？
You know, that's doing Berlin will come to me and they'll often ask, when should I fly there?
我会说，你能提前一周到那里吗？
And I'll say, can you get there a week out?
因为那是最理想的。
Because that would be ideal.
如果你能提前一周到那里的话。
If you can get there a week out.
当然不是每个人都能做到，但如果他们想优化表现，那比提前两天到要好得多。
Now not everybody can do that, but if they're gonna try to optimize performance then that would be more ideal than getting there two days before.
所以我尽量围绕那些他们似乎能控制的因素来展开这些对话。
So I try to have those conversations around the elements that do seem to be in their control.
至于人群，我能做的最好的准备就是帮助他们了解起跑线的地图是什么样的，以及如何应对。
And when it comes to the crowds, you know, the best thing I can do to help prepare someone is to help them understand what the start line map is gonna look like and how to navigate that.
比如怎么从酒店到那里，怎么确保他们知道自己的分区在哪里，什么时候去分区排队，需要站在那里多久，以及他们是否需要担心在分区里站三十分钟或四十分钟才开始移动。
How to get there from the hotel, how to make sure they know where their corral is, when to line up at the corral, and how long they need to be standing there, and whether or not they should worry about standing in a corral for thirty or forty minutes before they actually start moving.
所以这些就是我会和人们讨论的事情，就是他们会遇到的各种因素以及该怎么处理。
So those are all the things that I'll talk to people about is just the elements that they will face and what to do about them.
或者如果是波士顿或纽约马拉松，他们得先坐大巴，然后还得在某个地方干坐一个半小时，之后才能走到起点线，那就会聊到，好吧，那你打算怎么办？
Or if it's Boston or New York and the fact that they have to go, you know, on a bus ride and then sit sit somewhere for an hour and a half before they actually get to walk to the starting line, then it's conversations about, okay, well, what are you gonna do?
那段时间你打算做什么？
What are you gonna do during that time?
有些人喜欢跟人聊天，这样能给他们带来能量，有些人不喜欢。
And some people like to chat with people and engage that way, that gives them energy and some people don't.
有些人需要待在自己的小世界里。
Some people need to be in their own zone.
我觉得你和我可能就是那种，嘿，我只想待在安静的地方。
Like I think you and I are probably the ones that are like, hey, I want to just be in my quiet space.
所以在这种情况下，我会告诉别人随身带本平装书，这样他们可以在等待的时候打发时间。
And so in that case situation, I'm telling somebody to bring a paperback with them so that they can pass the time that way while they're while they're waiting.
这样他们就不会在还没到起点线之前就消耗掉紧张的能量。
So they're not burning nervous energy before they even get to a starting line.
这些只是例子，但你会尽力在各方面帮助他们。
So those are just examples, but you try to help them in all the ways you can.
但总有些事情是你控制不了的。
But then there's still things that are going to be outside of your control.
比如运动员踩到凝胶上扭伤脚踝。
You know, having an athlete step on a gel, you know, and sprain their ankle.
再说，我可以让他们注意点，告诉他们尽量管理好水站和凝胶站，但这种事情还是可能发生。
Again, I can tell them to pay attention, tell them to do your best managing the water stations and the gel stations, but that stuff can still happen.
那你打算怎么办呢？
So what are you gonna do about
哎呀。
Oh, man.
我刚刚在想我从大学跑者到后大学运动员独自比赛的转变。
I'm I'm just thinking back to the transition I had between being a college runner and then racing sort of by myself as a post collegiate athlete.
我真的很怀念那种一切都被安排好的感觉，不用操心任何后勤。
And I really missed just having everything taken care of, and I didn't have to worry about any logistics.
如果有人有机会成为大学田径或越野运动员，那就像成为职业运动员一样，只是你速度不够快。
If anybody has the chance to be a college track or cross country athlete, it's kind of like being a pro athlete, except you're just not fast enough.
没错。
That's right.
不过这也引出了一个好观点，我觉得在芝加哥，你可以付更多钱获得VIP入场资格，拥有自己的帐篷和卫生间之类的设施，还能更方便地进入起跑区。
It does raise a point though that is a good one, which is that I think in Chicago, you can get VIP access if you pay more to get your own tent and restrooms and all that kind of stuff and then have easier access to the corrals and things like that.
所以，如果你能在像芝加哥这样的比赛中负担得起这样的待遇，那这笔钱可能花得很值。
So to the extent that you can afford something like that in a race like Chicago, it's probably money well spent.
如果你已经花了300美元在比赛上，再加上旅行和其他费用，那么再花200美元进入VIP区域，如果可行的话，而且你关心自己的时间，那可能值得。
If you're already spending $300 on the race plus travel plus everything else, an extra $200 to get into a VIP area if that's available to you is probably worth it if you care about what your time is.
而且我觉得这和你之前建议的提前一周到柏林的道理类似。
And I think similar to your piece of advice to say, get to Berlin a week early.
这些都是花钱来摆脱压力情境的好办法。
Like, these are great ways to buy your way out of stressful situations.
因为我们都明白，压力就是压力。
Because I think we all recognize that stress is stress.
而且，跑得快的方式之一就是让你生活中的大部分压力都来自跑步。
And and one of the the ways in which you race fast is by having most of the stress in your life come from running.
那个……
You know, that...
那才是你发挥最佳表现的环境。
That's the best environment in which you can perform.
但并不是总能做到。
Now it's not always possible.
我们有家庭，有工作，有各种事情。
We've got families, we've got work and jobs and all this stuff.
当然，还有后勤和计划带来的压力。
And of course, there's all this stress of logistics and planning.
我想这就是我想说的重点：是的，你仍然可以在世界马拉松大满贯赛事中跑得很好。
And I think that was one of the big points I wanted to make about this this whole issue is that, yes, you can still run really well at a World Marathon Major.
但这需要额外的计划和准备，这本身就是一个额外的压力源。
It's going to take all this extra planning and preparation, which by itself is an extra stressor.
所以你必须认识到，你需要投入更多的努力。
So you've just gotta recognize that you're gonna have to put more work into it.
只是没那么容易。
It's just not as easy.
我觉得这就是为什么我见过很多亚精英跑者，基本上都是225到240这个区间的选手，他们很喜欢中档马拉松，因为那是个跑出好成绩的好机会，而且没有大满贯赛事那种压力。
And I think that's why a lot of, you know, sub elite runners, you know, I've seen a lot of basically two twenty five to two forty guys, they love the mid tier marathons because it's a great opportunity to race fast without all the stress of a major.
但那些真正跑得快的家伙，他们根本不用承受大满贯赛事的压力，因为他们被当作真正的专业人士来对待。
But then the really fast guys, they don't have to deal with any of the stress of a major because they're treated like the pros that they are.
但这也引出了一个问题，那就是大满贯赛事确实很棒。
But it does also bring up this point, which is that the majors are great.
我们很喜欢它们。
We love them.
它们是这项运动的核心。
They are the centerpiece of the sport.
它们吸引了很多关注，但还有很多很棒的比赛，规模也足够大，能给你想要的所有能量。
They draw a lot of attention, but there's so many great races out there that are still plenty big to give you the all the energy that you want.
我们上个周末刚举办了双城马拉松。
I mean, we just had twin cities this past weekend.
芝加哥马拉松就在这个周末，所以我们不一定把它算进去。
Chicago's this coming weekend, so we're not counting that necessarily.
但接下来那个周末，你还有多伦多、底特律、大急流城、哥伦布这些比赛。
But then you've got Toronto, Detroit, Grand Rapids, you know, Columbus, the weekend after that.
克里斯，你最喜欢哪些比赛？
What are some of your favorites, Chris?
对于那些想跑出好成绩，但又不想面对大型赛事那种后勤、压力和人群的跑者来说……
For for runners who wanna write...
跑出好成绩，但又不想面对大型赛事那种后勤、压力和人群。
Run a fast time, but they don't want the the logistics, the stress, and the crowds of a huge race.
我跟你说，过去几年我们带跑者去俄亥俄州的哥伦布，我觉得大多数人听到哥伦布，可能会想到俄亥俄州立大学，但也可能只是想到哥伦布有什么。
I'll tell you what, we took runners to to Columbus, Ohio the last few years, which most people I think when they hear Columbus, they might think of Ohio State, but they might also think of just what's in Columbus.
我为什么要去哥伦布？
Why would I ever go to Columbus?
但天哪，他们的比赛真的办得特别好。
But man, their race is just so well done.
组织得非常好。
It's so well put together.
赛道很平坦。
It's flat.
跑起来很快。
It's fast.
他们有一个规模不错的半马和一个规模不错的全马，两个比赛从同一条赛道开始，大约在12英里处分开。
They have a good sized half, a good size full that starts on the same course and splits about mile 12.
沿途支持非常到位。
So well supported.
当地社区真的把这场比赛当成自己的事。
The community takes true ownership of the race.
所以人们都会出来为你加油。
So people are out there cheering for you.
我们去年在那里，马拉松后半程下雨了，但人们似乎觉得下雨影响了大家的体验，他们很在意，希望大家还是能有个好体验。
We were there last year and it was raining on the second half of the marathon and people were, people seem to take it personally that they wanted people to still have a good experience because of the rain.
所以他们出来的人比我觉得前年没下雨时还多，因为他们就是想向大家展示，嘿，这也是个很棒的比赛，就算下雨你也能享受它。
And so they came out even more in force than I felt like the year before when it was not raining because they just wanted to show people, hey, this is a great race too and you can enjoy it in spite of the rain.
所以那场比赛很棒。
So it was a great race.
我们社区的人在那里跑得很快。
People from our community ran really fast there.
那是个规模适中的比赛，但不会太大。
It's a good size race, but it's not too big.
所以那是一个例子。
So that would be one example.
我们要去印第安纳波利斯。
We're going to Indy.
我们以前带运动员去过印第安纳波利斯。
We brought athletes to Indy before.
所以那是另一个。
So that's another one.
我喜欢多伦多，就是多伦多 waterfront 的那个。
I love Toronto, which is the Toronto Waterfront in Toronto.
如果你能去那里，那又是一个很棒的快节奏比赛，有半程和全程。
If you can get there, it's another great fast race that has a half and a full.
我从来没去过底特律，但我听说了很多关于底特律的好消息。
I've never I've never done Detroit, but I've heard really good things about Detroit.
而且那也是一个相当快的赛道。
Also a pretty fast course.
双子城有些人会说那是一个有点挑战性的赛道，但那个也不错。
Twin cities, you know, some people would say it's a moderately challenging course, but but that's another good one.
CIM 很棒。
CIM is a great one.
净下坡，快赛道。
Net downhill fast course.
所以真的有很多选择，休斯顿可能是我在德克萨斯州最喜欢的，因为我来自那里，而且它组织得很好，平坦，快速。
So there's just there's just so many Houston, probably my favorite in the state of Texas, which is where I'm from because again, very well organized, flat, fast.
在那里你可以随心所欲地跑，不必处理那些超级大型比赛带来的混乱。
You can you can run whatever you want there and not have to deal with some of the chaos that comes with these really really big races.
我想我的……
I guess my...
我显然对费城马拉松有偏爱，因为那是我个人最好成绩的所在地。
I obviously have a bias for the Philadelphia Marathon because that's where my PR is from.
费城，费城很棒。
Philly Philly is great.
那个我也跑过。
I've done that one as well.
在跑完纽约市马拉松之后，我真的很喜欢费城马拉松，因为我是直接被送到起跑线旁边的，非常方便。
I really liked that one after having done New York City because I mean, was dropped off right next to the starting line, which was super convenient.
比赛结束后，我直接乘坐地铁。
You know, it took the took the subway right after the race.
排队的人很少。
The lines were short.
这场比赛导航起来容易多了。
It was just a much easier race to navigate.
我没跑过印地马拉松，也没跑过那个大……
I haven't run Indy or the grand...
或者说奶奶马拉松，但我听说那不仅赛道很棒、跑起来很快，而且赛事组织得也很好。
Or grandma's marathon, but I've heard really excellent things about not just the course and how fast it is, but how well the race is run.
对，我觉得其他这些优秀的马拉松赛事真的有很多机会，而且它们通常也没那么难参加。
Yeah, I think there's a really great opportunity for, you know, all these other great marathons, you know, and the other thing about them is that they're usually not as hard to get into.
这些天它们确实卖得越来越快，但你通常还是有一个窗口期，不用参加抽签或者跑出资格时间。
They are selling out faster these days, but you do tend to have a window where you're not having to do a lottery or get a qualifying time.
所以似乎有一种连锁反应，影响了这些其他赛事，这很棒。
So there does seem to be a kind of a ripple effect which is affecting these other races, which is great.
不过确实，外面有很多很棒的赛事。
But yeah, lot of great ones out there.
嗯，克里斯，我真的很享受这次对话，深入探讨了这些想法、这些迷思，以及我们在跑步圈里思考这项运动的方式。
Well, Chris, I I really had fun with this conversation going into some of the the weeds on these ideas, these myths, these ways in which we think about the sport in the running community.
我一直很喜欢请一位好教练来聊这些话题。
I always love having a good coach on to talk about these things.
所以，谢谢你。
So thank you.
这是我的荣幸。
It's been a pleasure.
谢谢你们邀请我回来。
Thanks for having me back.
大家怎么联系你呢？
Where can folks connect with you?
因为我知道你也是个播客主持人。
Because I know that you are a fellow podcaster.
我们开始前私下聊了一会儿。
We were talking a little bit offline before we started.
我们俩今年都在庆祝播客十周年，或者说，是今年。
We are both celebrating our ten year podcasting anniversary today or this year rather.
没错。
That's right.
我觉得我们可以算是播客圈里的老前辈了，尤其是跑步类的。
We are we are some of the Running Podcast OGs, I think you could say.
所以你可以在各大播客平台收听我的节目《Running Rogue Podcast》。
So yeah, you can find me on my podcast, the Running Rogue Podcast on wherever you get your your podcasts.
如果你想了解我们的教练服务，可以在Instagram上关注Rogue Running，或者访问roguerunning.com查看。
You can check us out at Rogue Running on Instagram or roguerunning.com on the interwebs if you wanna look at our coaching options.
我每周五下午两点（中部时间）会在Instagram直播上做教练问答环节，我觉得特别有意思。
I do a Friday coaching q and a at 2PM central on our Instagram live every Friday, which I just find a total blast.
如果你有问题，想直接连进来获取一些免费建议……
And if you have questions and you just wanna pop on and get some free advice where...
不管什么问题，我都喜欢这种意想不到的惊喜，也很享受和大家即兴互动的过程。
Whatever the questions might be, I love just being surprised and getting to riff with people.
大家可以去看看，真的很有趣。
You can check that out, which is always fun.
而且我们今年早些时候刚出版了一本书，叫《Running the Rogue Way》。
And then we we just published a book earlier this year called Running the Rogue Way.
你可以在任何买书的地方找到它。
So you can find that wherever you might buy your books.
这算是我们Rogue跑步理念的一个概述，虽然不算特别简短，但确实是概述。
It's it's kind of a synopsis, not so short, but a synopsis of our running philosophy here at Rogue.
我很喜欢。
I love it.
好的，我们会在节目笔记里附上所有这些资源的链接。
Well, we'll have links to all those resources in the show notes.
谢谢你，Chris。
Thank you, Chris.
谢谢。
Thank you.
这期节目真棒。
What an episode.
非常感谢你的收听，也感谢你成为我们社区的一员。
Thank you so much for listening and being part of our community here.
如果你从《Strength Running》播客中获得了价值，如果这个节目对你的跑步有帮助，或者让你重新思考了训练方式，请考虑在Apple、Spotify或你收听的任何平台上留下评论或评分。
If you're getting value from the Strength Running Podcast, if the show has helped your running or made you rethink how you approach your training, please consider leaving a review or a rating in Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
这些评论对这个小企业来说非常有用，也很有帮助。
Those reviews are incredibly impactful and helpful for this small business.
如果你对跑步有疑问，可以随时发邮件到support@strengthrunning.com，或者访问我们的网站strengthrunning.com。
If you have questions about your running, feel free to email me at support@strengthrunning.com, or you can search our website at strengthrunning.com.
想要更多简单易懂的技巧、视频、梗图等，可以在Instagram上关注我，账号是Jason Fitz one。
For more digestible tips, videos, memes, and more, follow me on Instagram at Jason Fitz one.
我们会保持联系的。
We'll be in touch.
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