4 套精英马拉松训练计划及如何为你量身定制（教练 Brant Stachel 回归）

而且我可以告诉你，我确实有这种感觉。

And I can tell you, I certainly feel that.

我已经不像以前那么健康了。

I'm not as nearly as fit as I used to be.

但如果你经常做这些训练，你对实际强度的耐受度就会提高。

But if you do a lot of these, you become more tolerant of the actual intensity.

而且我认为，要让这种训练在比赛日发挥作用，你必须进行长时间的训练，或者恢复时间非常短。

And I think to do that in a way that carries over to race day, you have to do long bouts and or have really short recoveries.

我觉得这点说得很好，因为从我作为马拉松选手的经验来看，我承认我只跑过……

I think that's a really good point because, you know, from from my experience as a marathoner, and I admittedly only raced...

实际上，我跑过四次马拉松。

Actually, I ran four marathons.

其中三次是比赛。

I raced three of them.

但我有点觉得马拉松的前18到20英里，可以说是有点无聊。

But I I sort of thought that the first 18 or 20 miles of a marathon were, dare I say, a little bit boring.

以马拉松的速度跑两个小时，生理上完全可行，所以我就觉得有点无聊。

You know, it was so physiologically possible to run marathon pace for, you know, two hours that I was just kinda bored.

我不得不耐心等待，还得找点事做，同时要压制脑子里那些焦虑的小声音。

And and I I just had to exercise so much patience and, you know, just occupying my mind and and trying to quell little voices of anxiety in my brain.

我觉得我的耐心得到了回报，但感觉就像，哦，这太容易了。

And and I think I was rewarded with that patience, but, you know, it's like, oh, this is too easy.

这太容易了。

This is too easy.

我在干什么？

What am I doing?

耐心点就好。

Just be patient.

然后突然之间，你就觉得，好吧。

And then all of a sudden, you're like, okay.

我现在真的很难受，维持这个速度都很费劲。

I'm really struggling now, and it's just an effort to maintain the pace.

所以如果你训练中从不做这些，我确实担心马拉松比赛日会让你措手不及。

So if you don't do any of that in training, I do worry if the marathon is just gonna shock you on race day.

确实会。

It will.

我记得我比你做得少。

I remember I've done less than you.

我跑过两次。

I've done two.

我的第一次是在25公里处退赛的，我告诉人们那是最大的退赛点，即使看职业选手也一样，因为你起步太快，过了21公里后你开始意识到，哦不，哦不，这不会顺利的。

And my first one was a DNF at 25 k, which I tell people is the biggest dropout point even if you watch across the pros because you go out too hard and you get past 21 and you start realizing, oh no, oh no, this is not going to go well.

然后你就退赛了。

And you drop out.

但我的第二次，我记得当时心里想，那是在加拿大密西沙加，一个多风多坡的赛道。

But my second one, I remember thinking in my head, it was a hilly and windy course up here in Canada, Mississauga.

我在30公里时还保持着2小时39分、2小时40分的配速。

I was on like two thirty nine, two forty pace at 30 ks.

我当时就想，马拉松，看好了，别眨眼。

And I was like, Oh, marathon can hold my beer.

这太容易了。

This is easy.

我真不知道大家在说什么。

Like, I don't know what people are talking about.

然后我遇到了一段有坡度的路段，还迎着风，感觉就像突然被按了开关一样。

And I hit this little hilly section into the wind and it was like a switch flipped.

然后我就想，哦，原来如此。

And it was like, Oh, that's why.

你可以在我的Strava上看到，我回头看的时候，我跑的速度从每英里3分50秒左右开始。

And you can see this on my Strava when I looked back, I went from running, you know, low 350s.

中间有一段10英里的距离，我平均跑速大约是5分35秒每英里，因为我觉得太轻松了。

I had like a 10 mile stretch where I averaged like five thirty five miles in there because I thought it was so easy.

我当时就想，哦，这太棒了。

I was like, oh, this is great.

我在超过别人。

I'm passing people.

太棒了。

It's awesome.

而且我当时还不够成熟，没有足够的敬畏心和自律来应对这件事。

And I I wasn't mature enough at the time to have the respect and the discipline needed for it.

那是肯定的。

That's for sure.

那你最后跑了多少？

Now you you ended up running what?

两小时四十五分？

Two forty five?

两小时四十六分。

Two forty six.

两小时四十六分。

Two forty six.

但你之前是不是有一段时间跑的是五分三十五秒一英里？

But you were running five thirty five miles for a stretch?

天哪，布兰特，用那种方式跑出两分四十六秒，太难了。

Man, that's the hard way to run two forty six, Brant.

但我做到了。

And I did it.

前10公里我和一个朋友一起，按两分五十五秒的配速跑，结果他要去上厕所。

I was on two fifty five pace for the first 10 k with a buddy and he had to pee.

我当时就想，这太轻松了。

And I was like, oh, this is easy.

继续跑。

Let's go.

然后我记得最后六公里左右特别艰难。

And then I think it was the last six ks was like pretty rough.

我记得如果你跑过马拉松，就会知道那种用马拉松数学算完成时间的笨办法。

And I remember if you've been there trying to do marathon math to get your finishing time when you run a marathon, like the stupid way.

其实我有个视频刚发布。

Actually I have a video that just came out.

我把它叫做‘傻瓜配速’对比‘自信配速’。

I call that idiot pacing versus confidence pacing.

所以那绝对是傻瓜配速。

And so that was definitely idiot pacing.

这让计算变得很难，而且很难坚持。

It makes it really hard to do the math and hold on.

我觉得马拉松和其他比赛一样，但最大的区别是，就像其他比赛一样，如果你跑太快，你会崩溃的。

I mean, I guess the marathon is like any other race, but the the big difference is that just like in any other race, if you go too fast, you're gonna crash and burn.

但马拉松的问题是它太长了，强度低很多，所以很容易一开始就跑太快。

But the thing about the marathon is it's so long, which makes the intensity that much lower that it just is so easy to go out fast.

所以我觉得这些训练的价值就在于把你拉回来，确保你不会超过那个特定的界限。

And so I feel like the value of a lot of these workouts is is just, like, reigning you in and making sure that you you don't go beyond that certain threshold.

因为就像你说的，在马拉松配速上作弊太容易了。

Because like you said, it's so easy to cheat on your marathon pace.

连续跑26.2英里，想作弊可没那么容易。

It's just not easy to cheat on it for 26.2 miles in a row.

所以，我们刚才说的那个训练，不管是隔英里交替还是隔五分钟交替，我觉得这种训练在训练周期的初期做也挺合适的。

So this last workout that we were talking about, the either mile on, mile off, or five minutes on, five minutes off, I feel like this is also a workout that is probably good at the beginning of a of a of a training cycle.

然后我们提到的另一个训练，基本上是三十分钟高强度、三十分钟低强度，那个可能更适合放在训练季的中后期，从训练周期的安排来看是这样吧？

And then the other workout that we talked about, which is basically thirty minutes on, thirty minutes off, that might be a little bit more like middle to end of the season in terms of just how you would periodize these sessions?

没错。

Correct.

我会把它放在中间阶段。

I would do that in the middle.

而且我觉得我们一开始没提到的另一个前提条件是，你住的地方也很关键。

And I would say the the whole caveat, I guess, that we didn't say off the top for this is it depends where the heck you live too.

比如说，如果你在美国东北部备战波士顿马拉松，冬天天气很糟糕，那你可能就得调整计划。

Like, if you're doing a Boston build up here in the Northeast, like, the winter is trash, so you might have to change it.

你可能得灵活变通。

You might have to adapt.

如果你在博尔德，可能得根据你们那里的冬天情况做些调整，因为今年你们那里风大得厉害。

If you're in Boulder, you might have to do something different depending on the winter you guys get because you guys got wind like crazy this year.

可能不太可行。

It might not be plausible.

所以，对，要考虑天气因素，当你……

So, yeah, just think about weather when you're...

安排这些训练的时候。

Where you're programming these as well too.

当然。

Absolutely.

没错。

For sure.

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Hey.

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Now if that's you, you're gonna want all one thousand milligrams of sodium that's included in LMNT.

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好的。

Alright.

我们接着讲第三个训练品牌。

Let's move on to our third workout brand.

还有没有另一个你想给我们展示一下的？

Is there is there another one that you'd like to dazzle us with?

这个可厉害了。

This is a big one.

我只跟大概三个人一起做过这个。

I've only done it with maybe three people.

所以女生这边，都比2分46秒快，男生那边都比2分25秒快。

So on the women's side, all faster than two forty six and then all faster than two twenty five on the guy's side.

所以是六、五、四、三、二公里。

So it's six, five, four, three, two kilometers.

我打算用公里来算。

I'm gonna keep it metric.

我不打算换算成英里。

I'm not gonna try to convert that.

所以是六、五、四、三、二公里。

So six, five, four, three, two kilometers.

你的速度大概是从马拉松配速逐渐降到半马配速。

And you're right around marathon pace cutting down to half marathon pace.

再说一遍，你会做一公里的轻松恢复跑，丹尼尔斯E配速，保持稳定，先...

And again, you're gonna do a one k float recovery, Daniel's E pace steady first...

如果你用那种说法的话。

If you use that language.

所以这最终会是一个相当长的训练。

So it ends up being a pretty, pretty long workout.

和往常一样，热身20分钟，冷却20分钟。

Same usual 20 up, 20 warm down.

这是一个很磨人的训练。

It's it's a grindy workout.

我喜欢把这个放在训练周期的中段，比如第二、第三阶段的末尾，适合那些非常健康、对配速非常自律的运动员。

I like this one in the middle to like second, third, end of the second, third of a build with athletes who are really, really fit and really disciplined with their pacing.

对于年龄组选手来说，问题在于，比如像Knobs这样跑209的人，要以马拉松配速跑6公里，那就是18分钟。

The the trouble for age groupers is, you know, for somebody like knobs at two zero nine to do six k at marathon pace, it's eighteen minutes.

说实话，那其实并不算太难。

Like that's that's not that hard really.

所以这……

So it's...

对他来说，这个时间很快就缩短了。

It it cuts down pretty quickly for him.

所以这几乎可以当作是周中的马拉松控制训练。

So that can almost be like a midweek kind of marathon control workout.

但对年龄组选手来说，我会把这当作一次真正的长跑训练。

But for age groupers, I would treat this as an actual long run workout.

再说一遍，我想明确我们之前谈到的那些注意事项：要赢得这次训练、要有长跑基础、要足够耐久，等等。但我会把它改成三十分钟、二十五分钟、二十分钟、十五分钟、十分钟，从马拉松配速到半马配速。

Again, I wanna be clear of the caveats we talked about earning the workout, having long runs, being durable, all that such, but I would convert it to thirty minutes, twenty five minutes, twenty minutes, fifteen minutes, ten minutes, marathon to half marathon.

而且我只会在你非常健康、一切顺利的情况下才把它当作渐进跑来做，因为在那最后一组之前，你大概已经跑了七十分钟到七十五分钟左右，以马拉松配速，具体取决于你的健康和速度。

And I would only do it as a progression if you're like really fit and things are going well because you're already gonna be seventy or seventy five ish minutes, quick math off top of my head, into marathon pace before that last rep, depending on how how fit and how fast you are.

但那是相当长的一段路程。

But that's a pretty long go.

而且这又是一个我认为能教会你如何合理配速的训练，因为当我们想到阶梯训练，比如在跑道上递减的阶梯训练时，我们会觉得，哦，距离变短了，所以会稍微容易一些。

And it's another one where I actually think it teaches you to pace well because when we think of ladders, like drop down ladders and track, we're like, oh, it gets shorter so it's a little bit easier.

我可以跑得快一点。

I can go a little bit faster.

但我觉得这个训练在早期会积累更多疲劳。

But I think this one pushes a lot more fatigue early.

而且特别是用轻松跑作为恢复，你往往不会在后半段发力过猛，尤其是如果你跑量比较大的话。

And especially with the float recoveries, you tend not to crush the back half of it, especially if you're doing decent volume.

所以这就是我对这个训练的看法和定位。

So that's where I would position and think about that one.

我觉得这个训练对我来说有趣的地方在于，你……

I think what's interesting about this workout to me is that you...

你不是在做一英里的轻松跑。

You're not doing mile floats.

也不是在做三十分钟的轻松跑。

You're not doing thirty minute floats.

你只是做一公里的轻松跑，而且如果可以说你“赢得了”这个训练，那么配速会稍微加快。

You're doing only a kilometer of a float, and the pace is progressing slightly if if you've, you know, quote, unquote, earned it.

如果你更进阶一些，你可以把配速提高到半马配速。

If you're a little bit more advanced, you can progress down to half marathon pace.

所以对我来说，这个训练要难得多。

So this to me is a much harder workout.

它……

It...

而且因为距离在变化，就像你说的，我觉得会有那种诱惑，让人想跑快一点。

And because of the distances are changing, like you said, I feel like there's that temptation to go a little bit faster.

就像你说的，我的赛道思维立刻就会想，哦，这是个递减排速的阶梯训练。

You know, like like you said, like, my track brain immediately is like, oh, it's a cut down ladder.

所以我们显然也要降低速度。

So we obviously cut down the pace too.

虽然这有点道理，但它其实……

And while that's kinda true, it's it's...

马拉松配速和半马配速之间没有太大的差距。

There's not a ton of movement between marathon and half marathon pace.

所以这真的是一次对控制力的考验。

So it's just such an exercise in control.

我之所以提醒这一点，是因为我觉得只有三四个人做过这个训练，也许五个。

And there's a reason why I caveat this one was saying, I think I've only had, like, three or four people do it before, maybe five.

这需要那种不会去查看五公里分段时间的人。

It takes the type of person that's not going to be checking that five k split.

我觉得这才是这个训练真正的成败关键，因为六、四、三、二这些距离，没人会去在意。

I find that's the real make or break of this workout because, you know, the six, the four, the three, the two, nobody cares about that distance.

但那个五秒，如果你……

But having that five second, if you...

特别是如果你有田径背景，知道五公里分段意味着什么，以及那些东西，我发现这对很多人来说有时候是个很纠结的点。

Especially you're coming from a track background and you know what the five k split means and and all that stuff, I find that's a really sticky point for people sometimes.

所以如果你要做这个训练或这个变体，我更喜欢用时间来做，但同时也必须是那种能够尊重实际训练强度纪律的人，不会让一些自我驱动的东西干扰，以便在训练中在Strava上发布一个好的五公里分段。

So if you're going to do this workout or this variation, I prefer it in time for that matter, but also has to be somebody who's capable of respecting the intensity discipline of an actual session and not letting some of that ego driven side get in so they can post a good five k split on Strava during a workout.

我觉得那是一个非常有价值的见解，因为你……

I think that's such a valuable insight because you...

你说得完全对。

You're absolutely right.

就像你看马拉松成绩的分布图一样，大家都集中在三小时、三个半小时、四小时左右，因为我们对这些时间有特定的认知。

It's like it's like when you look at marathon times and the distribution across like a graph, they're all clustered around three hours, three and a half hours, four hours because there's there's a certain, you know, space in our mind for those times.

从生理学上讲，这些时间其实没什么特别的意义。

Physiologically, they don't really mean too much of anything.

这次训练中排在第二的5公里分段也是一样的道理。

Same thing with this five k segment that comes second in this workout.

我们会把它捧得很高，因为你说的完全对。

We're gonna put it on a little bit of a pedestal because you're absolutely right.

除非你是大学里跑过6公里越野赛的女运动员，否则没人知道自己的6公里个人纪录是多少。

Nobody knows what their six k PR is unless you ran six k cross country as a woman in college.

那是非常非常小众的一群人。

Very, very unique sliver of the population.

但对我们大多数人来说，我们知道自己5公里的好成绩是多少，心里有这个概念。

But for most of us, we know what a good five k time is for us, and we have this idea.

所以这几乎就像你偷偷当了个心理治疗师，悄悄在这里加入了一些心理韧性训练。

So this is almost like you're being, like, the sneaky therapist sneaking, like, some, like, some mental toughness training in here.

就像，我想用这个来诱惑你，但这又是一次对控制的考验。

Like, I'm gonna tempt you with this, but again, it's an exercise in control.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

所以这就是为什么我说，好的教练不仅仅是给一份训练计划表。

And this is why I say, like, good coaching isn't simply just giving a spreadsheet.

像那样的训练，或者仅仅是那个五公里背后的想法和思路，以及我刚才解释的方式，我能从这样的训练中了解到运动员的很多情况，这让我能更好地指导接下来的训练，并与他们讨论比赛中可能存在的差距。

Like, a workout like that or even that idea and thought process behind that five k and the way I just explained it, I'm gonna learn a lot about an athlete from something like that, which then allows me to better coach next workouts and have conversations with them about where their gaps might be on race day.

因为如果我能看到运动员有这样的想法，而且我这么说不是贬低，但，就是，有点被自我驱动了。

Because if I can see an athlete thinking that, and I'm not gonna say this as a slight, but, like, ego is driving a little bit more.

而马拉松完全不奖励自我。

And the marathon does not reward ego at all.

说得好。

Great point.

所以就是……

So it's...

每个人都能看到每场比赛中，有些被亲切地称为业余慢跑者的人，第一英里就跟着精英选手冲刺，然后壮烈地崩盘。

You know, everybody sees every race where some, I mean, this affectionately hobby jogger goes off and sprints with the elites for the first mile and then blows up spectacularly.

但这其实是一种巧妙的小方法，能获取关于运动员的信息，而不仅仅是他们的分段成绩。

But it's a sneaky little way to actually get information that's not simply what are splits about your athlete.

而且我觉得，当我指导运动员时，我想尽可能多地了解他们，这样我才能为他们制定出最好的训练计划。

And I think, you know, when I'm coaching athletes, I wanna know as much as I can about them so I can program as good as I can for them.

像这样的小细节，就像是……一些小线索，

And little things like that are, like, little cues that...

他们不知道你其实是在从教练的角度评估他们。

You know, they don't know you're kind of assessing them from a coach perspective in that.

比如，我们都知道，当你去跑道上或越野跑训练时，总有一些特定的训练，或者如果你的教练做过那种不看手表跑几组之类的，你就会知道教练在评估你，所以你会表现得特别好。

Like, we all knew when you show up to the track or cross country practice, there were certain workouts or, you know, if your coach ever did the no watch thing for reps and stuff where you kinda know your coach is assessing you, so you're, like, on your best behavior kind of thing.

但这是一种有趣的、隐蔽的方式，来收集运动员倾向的信息。

But this is a fun little, like, hidden way to gather some information about the tendencies of an athlete.

我觉得优秀的教练都是人类行为的学生，他们会利用某些训练来了解运动员的有趣之处。

I think great coaches are students of human behavior, and they will use certain workouts to learn interesting things about their athletes.

我觉得这就是一个很好的例子。

And I think this is such a great example of that.

好的。

Alright.

我们继续，来看第四个训练。

Let's let's move on to workout number four.

所以这是最后一个训练了。

So this this is the final workout.

这是马拉松训练里我最喜欢的一个，因为它能让教练和运动员都清楚，比赛当天会是什么情况。

This is like my favorite workout in marathoning because it tells the coach and it tells the athlete, I think every single thing you need to know about how race day is gonna go.

这个训练我已经用了大概十二年了，教练马拉松。

And so I've used this for probably twelve years now, Coach Marathon.

所以就直接说吧。

So it's just straight up.

杰森，你那注意力不集中的脑子肯定会讨厌这个训练的。

Your ADHD brain's gonna hate it, Jason.

马拉松配速跑九十到一百分钟。

Ninety to a hundred minutes at marathon pace.

布兰特，我又害怕又觉得无聊。

I'm both terrified and bored, Brant.

这是一次彩排。

It's a dress rehearsal.

鞋子、装备，如果条件允许的话，还有气候相似的话，补给方案、早餐安排，所有一切。

Shoes, gear if you can, if your climate allows and has similarities, fueling protocol, breakfast protocol, everything.

所以我喜欢这个训练的原因就是它适应性很强。

And so why I love this one, it's perfectly adaptable.

不管你是顶级精英运动员还是业余爱好者都适用。

It doesn't matter whether you're a super elite athlete or an age grouper.

实际上我觉得对业余爱好者来说比精英运动员更有价值。

I actually think it's more valuable for age groupers than it is for elites.

卡诺瓦也有类似的训练。

Canova does something similar.

我在他的一些计划里看到过，他做35公里，强度大概是98%到102%。

I've seen in some of his plans where he does 35 k at, like, 98 to a 102%.

所以我们就把它叫做马拉松配速吧。

So let's just call it marathon pace.

我为什么喜欢这个？

Why I like this?

我之前在网上说过。

I've said this online before.

我宁愿在马拉松进行到70分钟、80分钟、90分钟的时候发现这个配速撑不了全程，也不愿意看着我的运动员在实时追踪器上的10英里、13英里、16英里、18英里的分段越来越慢，因为我们没有好的数据。

I'd rather find out seventy minutes, eighty minutes, ninety minutes into this, that this pace is not sustainable for a marathon than be watching my athletes on a live tracker and see their, you know, 10 mile, 13 mile, 16 mile, 18 mile split getting slower and slower and slower because we didn't have good data.

而且这个训练，就像你说的，挺吓人的。

And this workout, as you said, is scary.

我的大多数运动员都会说，这太让人望而生畏了。

Like most of my athletes, they're like, that's really daunting.

然后我会说，是啊，确实如此，但我们会在马拉松前三到四周做这个训练。

And I'm like, yeah, it is, but we're going to do this three to four weeks out before the marathon.

而且如果我们明白，在最后三周里，我们其实并不会增加什么体能，顶多就是磨尖矛头，如果你想用这个比喻的话，就是逐渐减量、恢复，那我们应该是能做到以马拉松配速跑九十到一百分钟的。

And if we understand the idea that in the final three weeks, we're not really gaining any fitness anyways, we're maybe sharpening the spear, you wanna use that analogy, tapering up, recovering up all that, we should be able to do ninety to a hundred minutes at marathon pace.

如果做不到，那三周后我们就会面临一个相当大的问题。

And if we can't, we've got a pretty big problem coming up in three weeks.

所以我喜欢这个训练，因为它能提供很多数据。

And so I like this workout because it gives so much data.

而且你说你害怕它，这真的很关键，因为你知道害怕的运动员会怎么做吗？

And the fact that you said you're scared of it is such a central piece because you know what scared athletes do?

他们会放慢速度，合理分配节奏。

They go out slow and pace it properly.

我喜欢这一点，因为这样我们就能发现，你能不能做到？

And I love that because then we find out, can you do that?

因为任何听过这个的人，哪怕只是跑过一场小马拉松，更不用说大马拉松了，都知道在起点会有那么多肾上腺素和疯狂。

Because, you know, anybody who's listening to this who's run even a minor marathon, let alone a major, there's so much adrenaline and craziness at the start.

你可能在焦虑的等待区，或者在通往起点的巴士上，已经待了好几个小时了。

You've been in the corrals of anxiety or the buses to the start line for hours.

这个训练会强化你一开始要慢跑的理念，希望能压过那种焦虑的大脑。

And this workout is going to reinforce the need to go out slow to hopefully override that anxiety brain.

所以我经常告诉我的运动员，当你在巴士上或者起跑区坐着，准备开始时，请记住这个训练，就这一个。

And so I'll often tell my athletes like, when you're sitting there on the bus or in the corral, you're getting ready to start, please remember this workout, this one.

这是唯一一个我希望你记住的训练，因为它能帮你指导配速。

This is the only one I want you to remember because it will help guide your pacing.

然后从情绪的角度来看。

And then from an emotional perspective.

但同样从实际配速的角度，我尽量让运动员在相似的地形上做这个训练，如果可能的话。

But then also from an actual pacing perspective, I try to have athletes do it on the same kind of topography if they can.

显然，人们住的地方和比赛地点不同。

Obviously, people live in different places compared to the races they're doing.

但这能让你调整好努力程度和配速。

But this allows you to dial in effort and your pacing.

所以对我们大多数人来说，如果你去芝加哥、柏林，特别是纽约，你的GPS在前三、四、五英里都会不准。

So for most of us, you know, if you go to Chicago, Berlin, New York in particular, your GPS is off for the first three, four, five miles.

所以如果你只是依赖那个，没有一个好的体感基准检查，更别说前3英里你都是这样跑的，取决于你在哪个分区，那很可能就是一场灾难。

And so if you're simply relying on that and you don't have a good benchmark check-in of effort, not to mention you're doing like this for the first three miles, depending on what corral you're in, you're probably gonna have a recipe for disaster.

我发现这个训练真的能覆盖很多方面，而且非常可靠有效，能真正帮你为比赛日做好准备。

And so this workout I find just checks so many boxes that are highly reliable and valid to actually set you up for race day.

这个训练听起来太棒了。

This workout sounds amazing.

就像我说的，我我我挺害怕它的，但它也是个训练。

I mean, like I said, I'm I'm I'm terrified of it, but it's also a workout.

就像你说的，你没法躲。

Like you said, you're not gonna be able to hide.

它……

It...

它真的会暴露你的强项和弱项。

It's gonna really lay bare your strengths and weaknesses.

我觉得这是一个非常好的训练，能训练大脑适应马拉松配速，并且坦然接受它。

I think it is such a good session at training the brain to sit in marathon pace and just be okay with it.

你是那种喜欢让运动员摘下耳机，在训练时不听音乐或播客的人吗？

Are you someone who who likes your athletes to take out the the earbuds and not listen to music or a podcast when they're doing a workout like this?

因为如果他们在比赛时不听这些，只是单纯地跑，没有任何干扰，那在训练时用这些是不是有点像拐杖？

Because if they're not gonna do it during the race itself and they're just gonna, you know, sort of run without any of those distractions, is it then almost like a crutch to use it in training?

我很好奇你对这个问题的看法。

I'm curious your perspective on that.

关于这个，我有两个相互矛盾的想法。

There'd I'd have two competing thoughts on that.

所以先说明一下我的偏好。

So I'll preface my bias.

我觉得我跑步最快乐的时候，是戴着Timex手表，而AirPods还不存在的年代。

Like, I think I was at my happiest running when I had a Timex watch and AirPods didn't exist.

那时候就只有你和跑步，没有GPS。

Like, you know, it was just you and the run and it wasn't GPi.

是GPS，但它是那种类型。

I mean, was GPS but it type.

Souls品牌。

Souls brand.

我特别喜欢那段时光。

I I loved that time.

比如，任何听过我节目的运动员都知道，我不会在Final Surge里安排训练计划，因为那玩意儿技术错误太多了，而且我希望你们真正专注于节奏和训练的各个方面。

Like, any of my athletes who listen to this will know I don't program workouts in final surge because there's so many freaking tech errors and I want you actually focusing on the pacing and the aspects of it.

所以实际上有运动员因为这个不跟我合作了，但我认为这是更好的方式。

And so I've actually had athletes not work with me because of that, but I think it's a better better way to go.

所以在我给出答案之前，我要先声明这个偏好，然后我会尽量从两个角度来谈。

So I'm gonna declare that bias before I give my answer, and I'm gonna try and go on both sides here.

但我觉得，如果你是一个真的很难保持一致性的人，或者无法让自己出门去跑，或者觉得太无聊而想放弃，那么戴上耳机听个播客，用那种分心来让自己能够训练，我完全支持。

But I think if you're somebody who really struggles with consistency or is unable to get out and do it or finds it too boring and turns around and getting a podcast in and getting that distraction is what is going to allow you to train, I'm for it.

因为归根结底，一致性才是关键，如果你能做到这一点，我完全赞成。

Because at the end of the day, consistency, if you can do that, totally for it.

我认为，能够只是出门，感受自己的身体，如果你幸运地周围有树木，就凝视大自然，然后保持内心的和谐，这有巨大的好处。

I think that there is a massive benefit to being able to just go out, be with your body, stare at nature if you're fortunate enough to have trees around you, and just be in tune.

因为如果你做不到这一点，而依赖那些所谓的干扰，我只是想知道，在比赛那天，当干扰的能量达到一万的时候，会发生什么。

Because if you're not able to do that and you're relying on, let's just call them distractions, I just wonder what's gonna happen on race day when the distractions have an energy of, like, 10,000.

我觉得那会非常不同。

I think it's very different.

比如，如果你现在一边听这个播客一边做训练，我们其实挺平和的。

Like, if if if you're listening to this podcast while doing a workout right now, we're pretty mellow.

我们虽然对训练很兴奋，但也不是那种……

We're getting excited about workouts and stuff, but it's not like...

我们并没有很亢奋。

We're not amped.

我们不是那种能量爆棚的状态。

Like, we're not like 10 out of 10 energy here.

这有点不一样。

It's a little bit different.

但突然你进入比赛区域，鞋公司、服装公司在那里设置啦啦队站点，周围还有彩炮之类的，到处都是这些东西。

But all of a sudden you go in corrals and you got, you know, shoe companies and clothing companies having cheer stations that are like blowing confetti cannons and all this stuff around you.

你的能量会爆棚的。

Like, your energy is gonna be through the roof.

如果你不太擅长了解自己的身体和努力程度，并加以调整，我觉得那会非常困难。

And if you're not really good at knowing your body and your effort and dialing that in, I think it's gonna be really hard.

我常跟人说，马拉松一开始跑太快，就像从银行贷款，但利息是成倍增长的。

And I I kinda tell people, if you go out fast early in the marathon, it's like taking the loan from the bank, but the interest is exponential on it.

所以我强烈不建议这么做。

And so I highly advise against it.

所以我的偏好是不这样做，但如果这会让你失去一致性，那我也不会死守这个立场。

And so my preference would be not to do it, but if it's going to come at the cost of consistency for you, I will, I will not die on that hill.

对我来说，这似乎是个公平的折中方案。

Seems like a fair compromise to me.

而且我们今天的谈话似乎有一个大主题，就是马拉松配速的心理层面。

And it does seem like a big theme of our conversation today was was the psychological side of marathon pace.

我觉得这在马拉松中有点独特。

And I do find that that to be somewhat unique to the marathon.

当然，如果咱们说的是英里赛、三公里赛或者五公里赛，你得适应那种比赛的强度，但马拉松需要的耐心可不一样。

You know, of course, you know, if we're talking about the mile or the three k or the five k, you wanna get comfortable with the sort of intensity of those races, but but it's not like the patience that's required in the marathon.

你之前提到过，在去往起跑区的巴士上，或者在起跑区里，怎么平息那种焦虑的思绪。

And you mentioned earlier about sort of quelling the anxiety brain as you're on the bus to the corral or you're in the corral.

这让我想起了……

And, you know, I'm I'm just brought back to...

我……

You know, I...

这可能是因为我昨天看了我女儿参加越野赛。

This is probably because I watched watched my daughter's cross country race yesterday.

哦，那太棒了。

Oh, that's awesome.

确实很棒。

It was awesome.

而且就是那么……

And and it's just so...

比如，我在这些比赛现场特别兴奋，我……

Like, I am so amped up at these meets, and I...

我……

I've...

我，我……

I I...

我自己个人训练已经远离竞争层面很久了，所以当我回到那些比赛环境时，我才意识到那是一个多么高亢奋的环境。

You know, I'm so far removed from the competitive side of training myself personally that when I go back to those environments, I am reminded at how they are such a high arousal environment.

作为跑者，我觉得通过经验你会变得擅长的一件事就是，你几乎学会了成为风暴的中心。

And one of the things that you get good at as a runner through, I think, just experience is you learn to almost be the, you know, the the eye of the storm.

你就是那片绿洲，周围全是高能量和焦虑，因为你必须能够屏蔽掉你的竞争对手。

You're the oasis surrounded by high energy and anxiety because you've gotta be able to tune out your competitors.

你必须能够屏蔽掉那些高能量的干扰，我们或许可以这么叫它们，然后真正专注于自己，学会要么提升要么降低你的专注度和强度。

You gotta be able to tune out all those high energy distractions we might call them, and really just focus on yourself and learning to kind of, you know, either dial up or dial down your focus and intensity.

这正是我们今天要讨论的重要内容。

And that's such a big part of what we're talking about today.

没错。

Absolutely.

如果我用心理学的角度来看一下，你可以把唤醒度想象成一个音量旋钮。

If I if I put a psychological lens on it for a second, if you think of arousal as a volume dial.

然后……

And so...

就像在车里一样。

Like in the car.

如果播放的是一首很糟糕的歌，我就会把音量调低。

And, you know, if there's a really bad song on, I'm gonna turn the volume down.

比如，如果是歌剧……

Like, if it's op...

对我来说，歌剧简直太糟糕了，我就会直接把它调低。

Opera for me is a horrible, like, I just turn that down.

但如果是一首我特别喜欢的歌，我可能会把它调到最大。

But if it's like a real good song that I love, I might crank it to 10.

但大多数时候，我开车时音量也就开到五或六。

But most of the time I'm driving around at a five or six.

我发现，作为马拉松跑者，如果我们能习惯这一点，不管歌是好是坏，差不多那个水平，我保持在五或六，一切就都很好。

And I find as marathon runners, if we can get used to that, doesn't matter a good song, bad song, kind of in there, I'm at a five or a six, things are good.

我能听到，我喜欢，但不会震耳轰鸣。

I can hear it, I like it, but it's not blasting out.

所以我旁边的人就是我要说的对象。

So the person beside me here is what I'm saying to.

马拉松跑步也是同样的道理。

It's the same idea with marathon running.

如果你能习惯周围有那些东西，对吧，它们在进行，而你专注于自己的节奏，找到你的音量旋钮，可以说，这会让比赛日的生活轻松很多。

If you can get used to having that stuff around you, right, going on and being in your zone and focused on where you are, finding what your volume dial is, so to speak, it's gonna make your life on race day a lot easier.

当然。

For sure.

但我觉得，当你在博伊尔斯顿街左转时，那才是真正的开始。

But then I think, you know, when you make the the left on Boylston, then it's then it's

那时候就完全不一样了。

the time That's completely different.

那完全是

That's completely

把音量调高，宝贝。

Dial it up, baby.

调高音量。

Dial it up.

那时候就放开吧。

Let it go at that point.

嗯，布兰特，这真的很有趣。

Well, Brant, this was super interesting.

我真的很喜欢这些运动员在专业级别训练中的一些内幕。

I I I really love sort of the the inside peek into some of these really pro level workouts that these athletes are doing.

而且，我们这些普通人也能从中学习一些经验，以便在比赛日取得尽可能多的成功。

And and also, like, some of the lessons that that us mere mortals can learn from them so that we can have as much success on race day as as we can.

这些训练有什么想留给我们的吗？

Is there anything about these workouts that maybe you you wanted to leave us with?

有什么告别心得吗？

Any departing wisdom?

因为我知道，我们可能能聊六个小时的训练。

Because I know I I know we could probably do six hours on workouts.

而且我们聊得越多，我就越觉得还有好多要说的。

And and the more we talk, the more I feel like we have to talk about.

但是关于马拉松训练，有没有什么我可能漏掉的大要点，是这次聊天里特别相关的？

But are there any big things that I might have missed about marathon workouts specific to this chat?

我觉得所有这些训练都是在一个计划里的，这个计划里还有其他训练，针对其他心率区间、节奏跑、间歇跑，随便你想聊什么。

I think, you know, all these workouts are built within a plan that also has other workouts that are building on other zones, tempo, interval pay, whatever you wanna talk about.

我觉得运动员或教练在选择训练时，最大的问题不是简单地说，好吧，你需要一个20英里的长跑，或者多少次超过15英里，或者这个具体的训练，而是我们要为运动员缩小什么差距？

I think the biggest thing when athletes or coaches are looking at what workouts to apply is not just going, okay, well you need to have X 20 miler or this many over 15 or, you know, this exact workout or it's what is the gap we're trying to close for the athlete?

所以如果我们从这个角度出发，就能更好地设计训练。

And so if we look at it that way, we can better design the workout.

所以想想那个六、五、四、三、二的训练。

So think about that six five four three two workout.

我可能会把那个基于时间的训练用在那些我觉得有点自我心态的运动员身上，看看他们会怎么应对。

I might use that time based one for athletes that I think have a little bit of an ego perspective and see how they're gonna go on it.

这样我既能了解运动员，也能在后续的教练工作中填补他们的不足。

So that way I can learn about the athlete, but then also fill the gap in the rest of my coaching for them.

所以如果你是自我训练的运动员，或者你有其他教练之类的，学会了解自己的不足，然后应用合适的训练来弥补这些不足。

And so if you're a self coached athlete or you have another coach or something like that, you know, learning to understand where your gaps are to then apply workouts appropriately to close them.

因为任何通用的马拉松训练计划都可能是好的。

Because, you know, any generic marathon plan can be good.

我认为计划已经进步了很多，个人教练在过去十到十五年间也进步了很多。

I think plans have advanced quite a bit, and individual coaching has advanced quite a bit in the last ten, fifteen years.

但归根结底还是你的不足在哪里，以及你如何弥补这些不足。

But it still comes down to what your gaps are and how you're closing them.

这就是你如何发挥出最佳水平，并达到你个人对卓越的定义的方式。

And that's how you're gonna get the best out of yourself and perform to whatever your definition of excellence is.

所以我觉得听到这些纪录挺酷的。

And so I think it's cool to hear these records.

聊聊这些纪录也很有意思。

It's cool to talk about these records.

显然，我们对此感到兴奋。

Obviously, we get excited about them.

但如果你是正在听这个的运动员，如果你能真正找出自己的短板，你就能更好地应用相应的训练来弥补。

But if you're an athlete who's listening to this, if you can truly pick out what your gap is, you'll better be able to apply workouts that fill it.

这可是个价值百万的问题。

Million dollar question.

布兰特，你怎么知道自己的短板在哪里？

How do you know what your gaps are, Brant?

问得好。

It's a good question.

所以我会说，从之前的比赛来看，呃……

So I would say previous races, the...

如果你是丹尼尔斯训练法的追随者，看看你的短距离比赛在丹尼尔斯换算表上的位置，大多数人，甚至精英选手，往往在较短距离上表现更好。

If you are a Daniels follower looking at where your under distance races fall on the Daniels conversion charts, most people, even elites, tend to do better at the the shorter end.

这就是为什么很多美国田径奥运选拔赛的入围者来自半程马拉松而不是全程马拉松。

This is why you see so many USATF trials qualifiers come from the half marathon rather than the marathon.

所以我认为，对百分之九十以上的人来说，问题出在有氧耐力方面。

So I would say for 90 plus percent of people, it's going to be on the aerobic side.

所以那些漫长而磨人的训练会更有帮助。

So the long, grindy stuff is going to be better.

如果你无法保持稳定的配速，我不是说每个人都必须成为超级配速大师，但你知道，在我的职业生涯中，我达到了一个水平，可以轻松地为我们的女子队设定配速，从十六分钟到二十分钟，只需每两百米看一眼手表。

If you can't pace consistently, now I'm not saying everybody has to be a super pacer, but you know, got to a point in my career where I could jump on and pace our women's team, anything from sixteen minutes to twenty minutes, just by looking at my watch every 200 meters.

所以可能是配速问题，也可能是营养问题，对吧？

So it could be pacing, it could be nutrition, right?

可能是马拉松配速下的营养问题。

It could be nutrition at marathon pace.

所以，如果你在训练过程中感觉自己在某个方面有所欠缺，这是个强烈的词，但如果你在训练中感觉失败，那很可能就是阻碍你进步的那个短板。

So any point that you feel like you're failing, it's a strong word, but failing in the build, that's the gap that's probably going to keep you back.

如果是伤病问题，那就要问问自己，有没有做灵活性训练？

If it's injuries, it's like, are you doing your mobility?

有没有做力量训练？

Are you doing your strength?

所以，任何你觉得可能会阻碍你发挥潜力的事情，就是那个你需要想办法弥补的差距。

So anything that you think is going to be the thing that holds you back from what your potential is, that's the gap that I would seek to figure out how to close.

我觉得这绝对是一个你应该专注于自己弱点，而不是试图增强自己强项的领域。

I I think this is definitely an area where you do wanna focus on your weaknesses rather than try to drive up, you know, how strong your strengths are.

比如说，就像你说的，如果是伤病问题，如果你不擅长补给，那就去解决这些问题，因为如果你在3公里、5公里上已经很快了，那这方面真的没太多可以提升的了。

So for example, like you said, if it's injuries, if you're not good at fueling, you know, work on those because if if you're already kind of fast, you know, in a in a three k, a five k, there's not too much you can really do with that.

你需要先建立其他方面的能力，这样它们才能相互配合。

You sort of need to build the other capabilities first so that they can all complement one another.

说得好。

It's a good point.

这让我想到……

And it makes me think of...

我跟其他几位教练也聊过这个话题。

I've had this discussion with a couple other coaches.

我很想听听你的看法。

I'd be interested to hear what you think of it.

我觉得，我们之所以看到顶尖马拉松选手，真正顶尖的那种，比业余跑者做更多高强度训练，

I think one of the reasons why we see elite marathoners, like truly elite marathoners, do more intensity than age groupers.

有几个原因，一是他们能承受那样的训练量，等等等等。

There are a couple of fact, one, can handle it to the volumes, blah blah blah blah.

但对他们来说，真正的短板其实是延长他们能维持高强度训练的时间。

But that's the gap for them is actually raising the length of time they can do high intensity work.

而我看到大家常犯的错误是，我们盯着精英选手，看他们的训练计划，然后直接照搬，因为我们会想，这对精英选手来说是个好训练。

And what I see gets done the wrong way is we look at elites and we look at their workouts and then we just copy them over because we go, well, that's a really good workout for the elite.

所以业余跑者也应该这么做。

Therefore, an age grouper should do it.

但其实，精英选手的短板是增加训练强度，因为他们可能已经把训练量发挥到极致了，而且他们能取得这样的成绩，是因为这些顶尖马拉松选手大多已经跑了十年、十二年、十四年，甚至更久。

But it's because their gap is getting more intensity because they probably maximize how much volume they can do already and the gains that they have because most of these elite marathoners have been doing it for ten, twelve, fourteen years of running, if not more.

所以他们在那方面的收益已经递减了。

And so they've got diminishing returns on that side.

所以我觉得有时候我们看待他们为什么这样做的方式是错的。

And so I think sometimes we look at it the wrong way in terms of why they do it.

这个观点很有意思。

That's an interesting perspective.

我会从操作顺序的角度来看待这个问题。

I would I would look at it from, like, an order of operations perspective.

你懂吗？

You know?

比如说，如果你想做职业跑者那样的30公里、35公里马拉松配速训练，你得先明白他们已经先完成了所有这些基础条件。

Like, if if you're gonna do some of the 30 kilometers, 35 kilometers at marathon pace workouts like pro runners do, you have to first understand that they've checked off all these boxes first.

回到我们之前关于“赢得训练”的讨论，这是他们真正探索的最后一个前沿领域。

Like, going back to our conversation about earning the workouts, this is the last final frontier for them to really explore.

他们很可能已经每周跑100英里、120英里甚至130英里了。

They've already likely run a 100, a 120, a 130 miles a week.

他们已经探索了训练量的极限。

They've explored the limits of volume.

经过16年的教练生涯，我可以肯定地说，大多数业余跑者绝对没有探索到训练量的极限。

And, you know, after 16 of coaching, I can say most recreational runners absolutely have not explored the limits of volume.

他们还没有把他们的英里时间降到他们本可以达到的水平。

They they haven't gotten their their mile time down to where, you know, they probably could have.

大多数精英运动员，他们都有田径背景。

Most elites, they come from a track background.

他们来自短距离跑步的背景。

They come from a shorter distance background.

他们也探索了训练量的极限。

They've also explored their limits with volume.

只有到那时，你才把最大摄氧量推到了最高。

And it's only then at that point, you know, you've driven your VO two max up as high as it can go.

你已经尽可能多地完成了训练量。

You've done as much volume as you possibly can.

你还能做什么呢？

What else can you possibly do?

你只能做非常长的训练。

You just do really long workouts.

基本上就是提高总训练量中高强度部分的比例。

You basically raise the percentage of your total volume done at a higher intensity.

所以这相当于把80/20原则抛到脑后，去做一些非常不同的事情。

So you're kind of throwing that eighty twenty principle out the window and you're doing something very different.

没错。

Absolutely.

或者我也见过有时候80/20原则被完全抛弃，强度降低了，但单次训练的持续时间比通常看到的要长得多。

Or I've seen it sometimes where the eighty twenty principle is thrown out completely in that there is less intensity, but the duration of a single bout is much longer than you would see.

所以，因为他们的训练量太大了。

So, like, because their volume is so high.

所以如果你看看那些跑240、250英里的人，甚至像卡姆·莱文当年疯狂跑200英里一周的时候。

So if you look at some of these guys who are running two forty, two fifty, even like Cam Levin's back in the day when he was doing his crazy, like 200 mile weeks.

那比例就远低于八二了，但单次训练的时间会非常非常长。

It would be way less than eighty twenty, but the duration of those workouts is really, really long.

比如一次训练就是两个半到三个小时，但一周里他们还会跑二十四个小时的轻松跑。

It's like a two and a half hour, three hour workout, But then they're doing like twenty four hours of easy running in a week.

所以这……

So it it...

我觉得这因人而异，两种方式都有人用，我完全同意你的观点。

I think it goes both ways depending on the person, I fully agree with your point.

你说的那个先后顺序的问题，完全正确。

That order of operations point is is spot on.

布拉德，这次聊得太开心了。

Brad, this was so fun.

我特别喜欢深入探讨训练细节和背后的理念。

I I love getting into the weeds with workouts, with kind of the philosophy behind this.

如果大家想跟你进一步交流，或者想请你做教练，他们该去哪里找你呢？

If folks want to follow-up with you and maybe hire you as a coach, where can they learn from you?

想先找到我、像在这个播客里一样了解我的话，最好的地方就是我的YouTube频道。

The best place to, like, first find me and get to know me like you have on this podcast is my YouTube channel.

频道名字就是我的名字，Brant Stachel。

It's just my name, Brant Stachel.

我通过一个叫Team Run Run的平台进行教练工作，Jason，我知道你了解这个平台。

I coach through a platform called Team Run Run, which I know you know, Jason.

所以，如果你在Team Run Run上搜索我的名字，就能找到我的教练简介。

And so if you search my name in Team Run Run, you will find my coaching profile.

如果你想的话，可以直接在那里雇佣我。

You can hire me right there if you would like.

你也可以通过Team Run Run直接联系我，如果有问题的话。

You can reach out and through Team Run Run as well directly to me if you have questions.

能认识世界各地的人，教练一些非常棒的人，总是很有趣。

It's always fun getting to meet people all over and and coach really cool people.

我的职业生涯已经远远超出了我最初想做的任何事情。

I'm so far past doing anything in my career.

现在看着别人探索这项美丽的运动，感觉就像自己也在参与一样，真的很有趣。

It's so fun to live vicariously and watch others explore this beautiful sport now.

所以我很幸运，能像现在这样教练，

So I'm fortunate I'm to be able to coach like I

是的。

do.

我和你都一样，布兰特。

Me and you both, Brant.

你真是个宝贵的资源。

Well, you are such a resource.

非常感谢你。

Thank you so much.

希望大家会接受你的提议，去了解更多你提供的东西。

I hope folks will will take you up in your offer to learn more about what you offer.

感谢你今天抽出时间。

Appreciate your time today.

再次感谢你，Jason。

Thanks again, Jason.

我很感激。

I appreciate it.

这一集真棒。

What an episode.

非常感谢你的收听，以及成为我们社区的一员。

Thank you so much for listening and being part of our community here.

如果你从《Strength Running》播客中获得了价值，如果这个节目对你的跑步有帮助，或者让你重新思考了训练方式，请考虑在Apple、Spotify或你收听的任何平台上留下评论或评分。

If you're getting value from the Strength Running Podcast, if the show has helped your running or made you rethink how you approach your training, please consider leaving a review or a rating in Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

这些评论对这个小企业来说非常有力，也很有帮助。

Those reviews are incredibly impactful and helpful for this small business.

如果你对跑步有疑问，欢迎随时发送邮件到support@StrengthRunning.com，或者访问我们的网站strengthrunning.com。

If you have questions about your running, feel free to email me at support@StrengthRunning.com, or you can search our website at strengthrunning.com.

想要更多易消化的技巧、视频、梗图等，可以在Instagram上关注我，账号是Jason Fitz one。

For more digestible tips, videos, memes, more, follow me on Instagram at Jason Fitz one.

我们会保持联系的。

We'll be in touch.