442：与杰森·斯内尔谈“糟糕的约会”

我们来整理一份指南，记录你在不同情况下如何使用各种工具，以及当你仅使用 SF Symbols 时如何判断该选用哪个符号，这样我们也能把这些经验传达给开发者，但我总觉得这类事情根本没发生过。

Let's build a book of of what you use in certain ways and how you figure out which SF Symbol to use if you're just using SF Symbols, and we can also communicate that to developers, and I just don't get the sense that anything like that happened.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，基于我和苹果内外一些人的讨论，再加上自己的思考，我觉得这个问题是慢慢逐渐偏离轨道的，而像我和你这样的人，恰恰处于绝佳的位置，可以退一步说：没错，因为我们俩在整个过程中都一直在使用这个平台，并对其进行了详细评论。

I think based on some discussions with people inside and outside Apple, but and thinking about it, I think one of the ways that this went off drifted away very slowly and where people like me and you are in a perfect position to sort of take a step back and say, yeah, because we were both using the platform and commenting on it in detail throughout this entire period.

你真的必须回到史蒂夫·乔布斯的时代，必须认识到他那不可替代的作用。

You really do have to go back to Steve Jobs, and you really do have to go back to his irreplaceable role.

最近我发现自己经常反复提到这一点。

I often I find myself recently referring to it over and over again.

我得把这个放进节目笔记里，但二十年前有个关于硅谷公司组织架构的搞笑漫画，其中苹果的架构就是一个圆圈，中间只有一个点——那就是史蒂夫·乔布斯。

I gotta put this in the show notes, but the joke cartoon from twenty years ago about Silicon Valley Org charts, and the one for Apple is just a circle with one dot in the middle, which is Steve Jobs.

你还记得这个 'siliconvalleyorg' 吗？

Do you remember this siliconvalleyorg?

是的。

Yeah.

那个笑话式的组织架构图。

The jokeorg chart.

是的。

Yeah.

那是什么样子的？

What is it like?

每个人都有条虚线指向史蒂夫·乔布斯？

Everybody's got a dotted line to Steve Jobs?

或者

Or

是的。

Yeah.

而亚马逊则像一个完美的官僚体系。

And Amazon is just like this perfect bureaucracy.

嗯。

Mhmm.

谷歌就像一所大学式的混乱。

Google is like a university style mess.

Facebook 非常古怪。

Facebook is bizarre.

微软是一堆相互对峙的子子组织。

Microsoft is a bunch of sub suborganizations pointing guns at each other.

甲骨文有一个庞大的法律部门和一个相对较小的工程部门，而苹果则像是围绕着中央一个点的完整整体。

Oracle has a giant legal arm and sort of a small engineering arm, but then Apple is just this sort of sphere around one dot in the middle.

这在某种程度上是真的。

And it was kind of true.

史蒂夫·乔布斯相信自己的直觉。

And Steve Jobs trusted his gut.

对吧？

Right?

史蒂夫·乔布斯在用户界面设计方面有着极佳的品味。

And Steve Jobs had wonderful taste in UI design.

就像我之前在上一集和亚当·安格斯特说过的那样，用户界面设计的原则与写作中的语法规则非常相似。

And it's like I said this with Adam Angst in the previous episode that that that the principles of user interface design are a lot like the principles of grammar in writing.

我得承认，作为一个写作者，我已经把所有东西都忘光了。

And I will say, I will admit as a writer, I I have forgotten everything.

我一直以来都是这样。

I it all always.

我一直是凭感觉写作的。

I've always written by ear.

正因为如此，我在学习西班牙语作为第二语言时表现得非常糟糕，而且现在几乎全忘了。

I just have and because of that, I was absolutely terrible trying to learn Spanish as a second language and have forgotten.

我在高中学了四年，但现在几乎只能问一些简单的问题。

I took four years of it in high school and pretty much can ask or something.

我想那就是‘在哪里’

I think that's Where's

洗手间在哪里？

the bathroom?

当然。

Sure.

洗手间在哪里？

Where's the bathroom?

请给我两份汉堡和薯条。

And I would like two hamburgers and french fries, please.

我可以点些吃的。

I can order some food.

太棒了。

Amazing.

我能点餐，也能问洗手间在哪里，就这些了。

I can and I can ask where the bathroom is, and that's about it.

因为我大脑里没有刻意学过，我只是凭直觉写和打磨英语，但我知道我确实懂，我直觉上知道那些规则。

I because I don't my brain, I just write and craft English by ear, but I know I do it's like I intuitively know the rules.

我认为史蒂夫·乔布斯在用户界面设计上也是这样的。

And I think Steve Jobs was like that with user interface design.

正如我在将艾伦·戴在WWDC上推出液态玻璃与史蒂夫·乔布斯在2001年左右Macworld大会上推出Aqua界面进行对比时所指出的，那场Macworld大会当时在全球范围内举行。

And as I pointed out when I was comparing and contrasting Alan Dye's introduction of Liquid Glass at WWDC with Steve Jobs' introduction of Aqua back in, like, 2001 at a Macworlds, one of the Macworlds that was at the time, held all around the world.

史蒂夫·乔布斯当时使用了‘关键窗口’这样的术语，并特别指出关键窗口的特点。

And Steve Jobs was using words like key window and pointing out things like the key window.

你可以清楚地看到，它在背景窗口中具有突出的地位。

You could see that it has this prominence apart from the background windows.

而艾伦·戴在介绍液态玻璃时的发言却完全没使用任何这些人类计算机交互领域的术语。

And Alan Dye's word salad introducing liquid glass didn't use any of those human computer interaction terms.

人们从那次发布中印象最深的，是史蒂夫·乔布斯说：‘看看这个。’

And the main thing people remember from that introduction was Steve Jobs saying, look at this.

我们希望让按钮看起来像能舔的一样。

We wanted to make the buttons look lickable.

他说得没错，他也确实这么做了，他们也做到了。

And he it was true, and he did, and they did.

但更重要的是，他懂得这些人类计算机交互原则，比如让获得输入焦点的前窗口在视觉上更加突出，这样你一眼就能看出来，而无需思考、寻找或费力辨认红黄绿按钮——就像今年之前iPadOS的分屏功能那样，你真的得像玩‘寻找瓦尔多’一样，费劲地判断哪个面板获得了输入焦点。

But also, he knew these human computer interaction principles, like making the front window, the one that has input focus visually prominent so that you can tell at a glance without having to think or look or just hunt for the red, yellow, green buttons or god, like the way that in previous versions of iPadOS before this year when you had split screen, you know, you really it it was really like where's Waldo trying to figure out which of the panels had input focus.

是的

Yep.

对

Yep.

这完全是错的。

Which is just wrong.

这就像说他再也不去那儿了那样语法错误。

It is as wrong as saying he don't go there no more.

从语法上讲，这和那个人机界面设计一样错误。

It's grammatically as as wrong as that grammar is was as wrong as that human interface design.

但我认为，艾伦·戴的图形设计师界面设计理念是：这样看起来更好，因为把没有焦点的元素淡化掉不够酷。

Yet, I think it was sort of like that the Allen Dye graphic designer school of interface design is, well, this looks better because fading things out if they don't have focus doesn't look cool.

你已经完全失去了你所做事情的目的。

It's and it's like you've completely lost the purpose of what you're doing.

我确实有点疑惑，因为我要说，Aqua 确实存在一些可读性问题。

I do wonder because and I will say Aqua I mean, Aqua did have some legibility issues.

这并不完美，但我完全理解你的意思，你看。

It wasn't perfect, but I I totally get what you're saying because look.

蒂姆接替史蒂夫的一个后果是，蒂姆没有那种感觉。

One of the consequences of Tim taking over from Steve is that Tim didn't have that sense.

对吧？

Right?

所以他不得不依赖值得信赖的副手，而这里潜在的风险是，如果你信任某人，其实你不该这么做。

So he has to rely on trusted lieutenants, and it's not a big leap to suggest the danger there is if you trust somebody, you shouldn't.

我觉得，他们对艾伦·戴伊被Meta挖走感到失望，而我们很多人都是：什么？

And I think, like, that story that they were disappointed that Alan Dye got poached by Meta, which a lot of us are like, what?

为什么？

Why?

我觉得他们已经习惯他了。

I think they're used to him.

他们把信任投在了他身上。

They invested their trust in him.

而这就是蒂姆·库克不会去看艾伦·戴伊团队出来的设计，并说‘我担心你们对易用性的关注不够’的原因之一。

And this is one of those things where Tim Cook's not gonna look at the designs that come out of Ellen Dye's group and say, I'm worried about your lack of focus on usability.

他不会这么做的，因为他就是那个人，而CEO身上根本没有这种特质。

He's not because he's been he's the guy, and the CEO does not have that bone in his body.

所以这就意味着，把所有希望都寄托在一个人身上是有风险的。

And so it's gonna be so so that's the danger of investing all of your hope on somebody.

你们必须拥有全部的品味，因为你们没有，而他是老板。

They have to have all the taste because you don't have it, and he's the boss.

所以如果他的下属说，艾伦，我不喜欢这个设计。

So if his lieutenants say, Alan, I don't like this.

我不喜欢我们现在的方向。

I don't like where we're going there.

这些意见永远传不到蒂姆·库克那里。

That never reaches Tim Cook.

对吧？

Right?

因为他掌权，他会做出这些决定。

Because he's in charge, and he's gonna make those decisions.

对。

And Yeah.

我再次不愿把这一切完全归功于艾伦·戴，但从文化上看，确实让人感觉那些设计出来的东西——很难不看到液态玻璃时想，这些设计师是不是假设苹果工程师的技术能力足够强大，足以通过编程解决任何可读性问题？

Again, I'm reluctant to entirely personify it on Alan Dye, but certainly, culturally, it feels like the stuff that came out like, it's hard not to look at liquid glass and sometimes think, was this designed by designers who assumed that the technical proficiency of the coders at Apple would be so great that any legibility problems could be solved programmatically?

你们会搞定的。

You guys will fix that.

对吧？

Right?

你们会在需要的时候隐藏一些东西，诸如此类。

You'll obscure things when they need to be and whatever.

我有时确实会对此感到疑惑。

I do wonder about that sometimes.

他们是彻底解决了整个数学问题，还是只解决了最优情况，然后说：‘我们的天才们会搞定剩下的部分。’

If it was like, did they solve the whole math problem, or did they solve the best case and then say, well, our geniuses will figure out the rest of it.

我不知道。

I don't know.

但流程中似乎缺少了什么。

But it it there's something is missing in the flow there.

他们似乎没有掌握全部情况，或者根本不在乎。

It doesn't seem quite like they got the whole picture, or maybe they didn't care.

我的意思是，这是另一种可能性。

I mean, that's the alternative.

也许他们觉得，只要看起来酷就行了，易用性是给傻瓜准备的。

Maybe they thought, look, all that matters is that it looks cool and usability is for suckers.

有可能。

It's possible.

我认为，在乔布斯时代，所有事情都可以通过乔布斯来协调，实际上这种方式更高效。

I think what happened is that during the Jobs era, it could all flow through Jobs and actually was it clearly more efficient that way.

而且我认为乔布斯不会接受其他任何方式。

And I don't think there was jobs that was gonna have it any other way.

但实际情况是，用户界面设计师不再向软件工程部门汇报，而过去他们是这样的。

But what happened was the user interface designer stopped reporting up through software engineering, which is where they used to.

这个团队过去是向软件工程部门汇报的，被视为另一种工程学科。

That group used to report up through software engineering, and it was treated as effectively another engineering discipline.

是吗？

So was that?

是的。

Yes.

当时有图形

There were graph

约翰尼升职了？

Johnny getting promoted?

是这个原因吗？

Is that what that?

我觉得这发生在那之前。

I think it was before that.

我觉得这发生在Aqua设计的时候。

I think it happened, like, when Aqua was designed.

我觉得这大概发生在2000年。

I think it happened to, like, in 2,000.

他们开始向史蒂夫汇报，而不是向上级

They started reporting to Steve and not reporting up

通过Sure。

through Sure.

软件工程。

Software engineering.

这是

Which is

当史蒂夫在的时候，这样没问题。

okay when Steve's there.

对。

Right.

即使在乔布斯去世后，一段时间内一切还算正常，因为他们还能依靠已有的工作成果继续推进。

And then even when Steve died, it was fine for a while because they could drift on the work that was already there.

我想，我正在回顾斯蒂芬·哈克特精心整理的512像素分辨率的macOS 10截图合集。

And I think a lot of those I I'm going back through Stephen Hackett's excellent collection of MacOS 10 screenshots at 512 pixels.

你可以看到，这种变化一直持续到艾伦·戴伊入职前后。

You can see it up through right about the time Allan Dye got hired.

这并不完全依赖于他个人，但我认为艾伦·戴伊的入职，也恰好与乔尼·艾维的崛起同步。

And it's not dependent on him personally, but I think that part of Allan Dye getting hired also coincided with Johnny Ive.

谁聘用了艾伦·戴伊？

Who hired Allen Dye?

这是一种征兆。

Symptom.

这是一种征兆。

It's a symptom.

但那时乔尼·艾维的注意力集中在发布Apple Watch和Apple Park的架构上，你知道的，诸如此类的事情。

But that's where out where Johnny Ive's attention was on shipping the watch, the Apple Watch, and the architecture of Apple Park, which, you know, yada yada yada.

五年后，他离开了苹果。

Five years later, he's out of Apple.

但另一方面，我的简化版看法是，史蒂夫离开后，苹果需要让外界看到他们依然拥有优秀人才，以此让市场和所有人相信，即使没有史蒂夫，苹果依然可靠。

But then also say I mean, my my my CliffsNotes version of this is with Steve gone, they needed Apple needed to invest visibility in people that would in would allow the markets and everybody else to trust that Apple still had talented people there even with Steve gone.

因此，他们给了乔尼大量的责任、头衔和资源，以安抚大家，让大家相信苹果会没事。

And so they gave Johnny a lot of responsibility and titles and things to reassure everybody that Apple was gonna be okay.

我认为，在当时，这在某种程度上是正确的决定，但它把过多的权力赋予了乔尼，而这些权力他或许在那个时刻并不完全配得上——但公司必须提升他，所以他必须拥有这些权力。

And I I think in some ways, it was the right decision at the time, but it inscribed a bunch of power into Johnny that maybe he didn't deserve in that moment, but he needed to have it because they needed to elevate him.

这意味着他更多地介入了软件方面的工作。

And that meant more of his software thing.

关于你提到的表和苹果园区这些事，我个人认为，乔尼·艾维已经对设计硬件感到疲惫，对这类工作不再那么感兴趣了。

And to your point about, like, the watch and Apple Park and all of that, personal opinion, I think Johnny Ive was burned out on making gadgets and just wasn't that interested in it.

于是，这些工作就落到了他的团队身上，而他本人则去设计史蒂夫·乔布斯剧院的扶手——那确实是一件非常优美的作品。

And so it falls to his people to do that work while he's off looking at handrails for the Steve Jobs theater, which is a beautiful I mean, it's a beautiful piece of work.

别误会我的意思，但这毕竟不是一台iMac。

Don't get me wrong, but, like, it's not an iMac.

我认为，史蒂夫离开时应该做的，不是把整个设计领域都交给乔尼·艾维，而是只把图形设计、图标风格、主题装饰，比如gizmo和铂金之类的，交给他。

I and I think what should have been done when Steve left was instead of putting it under Johnny Ive as the whole discipline, just the graphic design and the style of the icons and the decor the themes, like gizmo and platinum and whatever.

UI的主题风格可以继续由乔尼的团队负责，但UI的整体架构、蓝图、线框图，以及一些基本原则——比如——

The theme of the UI could have remained under Johnny's team, but that the overall structure, the blueprint, the wireframe of the UI, and the principles of things like, hey.

每个菜单项旁边都应该有个小图标吗？还是说这是个糟糕的主意？

Should every menu item have a little icon next to it or not, or is that a bad idea?

不管菜单长什么样、是否透明、系统字体是什么，这些都不重要，作为一个普遍原则，这些应该回归到2000年之前、或者史蒂夫·乔布斯回归前的状态，成为软件工程领域的一个独立学科。

Regardless of what the menus look like and how transparent they are or what the system font is or anything like that, just as a general principle, should have gone back to where it was before 2000 or the return of Steve Jobs and become a discipline an engineering discipline under software engineering.

而且，这一点很重要，要让软件团队在关于对错的争论中拥有同等的发言权。

With, and this is an important point, with the ability for them to have an equal weight in the arguments about what was right and wrong.

因为，即使软件团队里有一群人非常在意这些细节，但如果他们在每次争论中都输给了设计师，那也没用。

Because you can have a whole group that is in that software group who cares about that stuff, but if they lose every argument to the designers, it doesn't matter.

对。

Right.

我觉得这种情况后来就停止了，他们失去了这种平衡。

And I think that just stopped happening and that they lost that.

那么，艾伦·戴伊是怎么做到的呢？

And, you know, well, then how did Allan Dye get away with it?

他怎么会成功这么久？

How did he succeed for so long?

为什么高层领导对此感到惊讶？为什么他们认为这是公司巨大的损失？

How was this a surprise to the senior leadership, and how was senior leadership thinking this was a terrible loss to the company?

我认为，你知道，我听过这个说法。

And I think it you know, and I heard this.

我亲自报告并听到的是，艾伦·戴伊并不是不可爱的人。

I reported this out and heard this firsthand was that it's not that Allen Dye is or was unlikable.

我见过他几次。

I've met him a few times.

和他聊天是个很愉快的事。

He's a fine fellow to to have a chat with.

你知道的？

You know?

还有一点是，有人给我写信说，那像动态岛这样的酷功能是怎么在艾伦·戴伊手下发布的呢？

And the other thing too is people have written to me like, well, then how did cool things like the dynamic island ship under Allen die?

它确实发布了。

Which it did.

完全是在艾伦·戴伊任内推出的，这是一个非常酷的功能，我从第一次见到它就开始称赞它。

Entirely came out under Allen die, and it's a very cool feature that I've sung the praises of right from the first time I saw it.

我有幸在那场iPhone发布会后，直接在动手体验区遇到了艾伦·戴伊和他的设计团队。

And I was lucky enough to run into Allen die and the team that designed it literally in the hands on area after that iPhone event.

也就是说，在我们刚离开史蒂夫·乔布斯剧院后十分钟，我就和艾伦·戴伊聊起了动态岛，向他和他的团队表示祝贺，因为我当时已经爱上了这个功能。

So, like, ten minutes after we got out of the Steve Jobs Theater, I'm talking to Allan Dye about the Dynamic Island and congratulating him and his team because I was already in love with it.

那为什么一些出色的功能还能在艾伦·戴伊手下发布呢？

And how could some cool stuff ship under Allan Dye?

没有人——包括我，也许他是最公开的批评者——会说在他在任期间，苹果的用户界面设计是零分（满分100分）。

It's nobody, including me, perhaps his most public critic, nobody is saying that Apple's user interface design was a zero on a scale of zero to a 100 under him.

苹果的人机界面设计师团队中，依然有很多非常优秀的人才。

And there are super talented people still in the ranks of Apple's human interface designers.

希望新的用户界面设计负责人斯蒂芬·莱梅能体现这一点，并将他们重新推到前沿。

And, hopefully, Stephen LeMay, the new head of user interface design, will exemplify that and sort of bring them back to the forefront.

但那些人确实存在，像这样的人显然是推动动态岛设计的核心力量，而动态岛本身有着非常出色、酷炫的视觉效果。

But they were there, And the people like that were clearly the ones driving the Dynamic Island, and the Dynamic Island has a very nice whiz bang, looks cool.

我们可以将这一特性用于广告和发布会中，这会让艾伦·戴感到满意。

We could feature this in ads and keynotes aspect to it that pleases Allen Dye.

我从苹果内部很多人那里听到的是，尽管艾伦·戴为人亲切、富有魅力，但他首先是一个政治操盘手，这在苹果的基层文化中并不被认可。

And the other thing I heard from so many people within Apple was that as likable and personable as Allen Dye could be, he was clearly first and foremost a political operator, and it kind of doesn't fly within Apple's rank and file culture.

当然，任何公司都有政治，从我们小时候到现在，苹果内部一直存在政治斗争。

And, of course, there's politics in any company, and there's always been politics at Apple from when you and me were kids all the way through now.

我的意思是，正是政治斗争导致史蒂夫·乔布斯在1985年被逐出公司。

I mean, the politics were what got Steve Jobs exiled from the company in 1985.

每个公司都有政治，一旦公司规模达到上市公司的体量，政治自然不可避免。

Every company has politics, and once you get to the size of a publicly held corporation, of course, there's politics.

但我只是想说，对于一家上市公司而言，苹果的设计师和工程师基层文化中，热衷于政治操作是不被看好甚至被排斥的。

But I'm just saying that for a publicly held corporation, Apple and the rank and file levels of designers and engineers, it's kind of frowned upon to be a political player.

所谓政治玩家，我的意思是，我认为艾伦·戴伊非常擅长如何让上级开心，如何让蒂姆·库克开心。

And by political player, what I mean is I think that Allen Dye is very adept at figuring out how to keep the people above him happy, How to keep Tim Cook happy.

如何让克雷格·费德里吉开心。

How to keep Craig Federighi happy.

如何让贾斯开心。

How to keep Jaws happy.

如何让埃迪·Q开心。

How to keep Eddie Q happy.

你在他们的报道中也能看到，他们对他的离职感到震惊。

And you see that in the reports that they were taken aback by his

是的。

Yeah.

离职。

Departure.

不过我有个推测，那就是你四处找新工作的一个原因，可能是你原本以为自己会得到某个晋升，但最终没有得到，或者我意思是，关于他退休、成为董事长之类的传闻满天飞，我的直觉就警觉起来了——当你处于相当高的职位时，你开始对谁会向你汇报、你会向谁汇报产生预期。

Although I do have a theory there, which is that one of the reasons you look around for another job is that there was some promotion that he thought he was gonna get that he didn't get or who you're gonna I mean, with all the rumors about him retiring and all of that or becoming the chairman and all that, like, I just my my spider sense went off, which is one of the things that happens when you're at a fairly high level is you start to have an expectation of who you're gonna report to, who's gonna report to you.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你是一个政治操盘手，这尤其重要，它代表的意义非常重大。

And it's a huge part, if you're a political operator, especially, but it's a huge part of, like, what it represents.

这不仅仅是你赚的钱。

It's not just the money you get paid.

如果你长期向史蒂夫·乔布斯汇报，而乔布斯离开后蒂姆·库克成了CEO，那是不是该走了？

If you've been reporting to Steve Jobs for a while and then Steve Jobs leaves and Tim Cook becomes the CEO, is it time to leave?

因为你得重新建立新的关系，我对于艾伦·戴的直觉就是，他可能在寻找其他机会，但我也不禁怀疑，不是他们想赶他走，而是他觉得自己应该得到更多，而公司可能没打算给他，所以他开始四处看看。

Because gonna have to build up a new rapport, and that was my spider sense kind of feeling about Allan Dye was that maybe he was looking for another opportunity, but I do wonder if not that they wanted him out, but that he felt he deserved more than maybe they were willing to give him, and so he started looking around.

有一些报道，我认为经常如此，这些人都真的如此，这也就是为什么你的网站叫这个名字。

And there are reports, I I think oftentimes, and a lot of these guys, they truly do you know, it's why your site's named what it is.

他们为六种颜色而热血沸腾。

They bleed six colors.

这就是为什么苹果的高层领导层如此稳定，人们一旦进入就在这里度过整个职业生涯。

This is why Apple senior leadership is so steady and that people get in there and spend the rest of their careers there.

是的。

Yeah.

像菲尔·席勒这样的人，即使退休或不再担任全球产品营销高级副总裁（无论他的完整头衔是什么），仍然在运营应用商店和主持苹果的活动。

And a guy like Phil Schiller, even after he retires as senior or steps aside from the position of senior vice president of worldwide product marketing, whatever his full title was, is still running the App Store and running Apple's events.

对。

Right.

这不是为了钱。

It's not for the money.

菲尔·席勒并不需要2026年再多拿一年的薪水。

Phil Schiller does not need another year's salary in 2026.

这些人都不需要更多的钱。

None of these guys need any more money.

他们这么做是因为他们喜欢。

They are doing it because they like to.

而且已经有报道称，尤其是在人工智能领域，AI研究人员和其它公司向顶尖研究人员开出的看似荒谬的高额薪酬。

And there have been reports, especially it comes up with AI and AI researchers and the seemingly absurd sums of money that other companies are throwing at top researchers.

有一些报道。

There are reports.

我认为，通常这一切都回到我们的朋友马克·古尔曼，他说Meta从苹果挖走了人，并向他们提供了1亿美元的奖金，或者其他公司也提供了1亿美元的奖金，以吸引他们加入。

I think, again, all of oftentimes, this all goes back to our friend Mark Gurman that Meta had poached people from Apple and offered them a $100,000,000 and or other companies, a $100,000,000 bonuses to come and join the company.

而在苹果，这简直是不可能的。

And that at Apple, that is like, no.

我们不会这么做。

We're not going to do that.

你知道，克雷格·费德里吉说，我赚不了那么多钱。

You know, Craig Federighi is like, I don't make that much money.

你要么想在苹果工作，要么就不想。

Why in the world would we you either wanna work at Apple or you don't.

如果你不想在这里工作，那你就不属于这里。

And if you don't wanna work here, you don't belong here.

我有点觉得，也许部分原因是艾伦·戴收到了类似去Meta的offer，因为马克·扎克伯格认为，而我对此抱有希望。

And I kinda feel like maybe part of it is that Allan Dye got an offer like that to go join Meta because Mark Zuckerberg thinks that, and then I'm hopeful.

我甚至都不想相信你是对的，因为按照你的理论推断，他似乎察觉到了苹果内部的风向，如果传言属实，而图尼斯将成为公司下一任CEO，那也许他知道图尼斯并不欣赏他在用户界面设计方面的工作。

I don't even wanna believe that you're right because I think to extrapolate on your theory that he kinda smelled which way the winds were blowing within Apple would mean if the rumors are right and Turnis is the next CEO of the company that maybe he knows that he Turnis is not a fan of his work in UI design.

有可能。

It could be.

也可能只是因为那个人。

It could also be as simple as that guy.

我要向那个人汇报，或者也可能是我想像乔尼那样成为首席设计官，掌控所有这些事情。

I'm gonna report to that guy, or it could be something like, I wanna be chief design officer like Johnny, and I wanna control all of that stuff.

但他们说：‘艾伦，这不可能发生。’

And they're like, that's not gonna happen, Alan.

然后，是的。

And then Yeah.

我见过很多次这种情况，有些人非常受他们上级的重视。

I've seen that time and again where there are people who, like, are valued a lot by the people they report to.

但存在不匹配。

But there's a mismatch.

但你说得对。

But you're right.

也有可能很简单，他只是厌倦了在苹果玩这些游戏，而 elsewhere 有更大的报酬和更多荣耀在等着他。

It could also just be as simple as he's tired of playing those games at Apple, and there's a big paycheck dangling somewhere else for more glory.

我的意思是，每个人的动力都不一样。

I mean, everybody's motivated by different stuff.

有时候，我觉得是什么在激励人们，确实会让人感到意外。

It's just sometimes it's surprising, I think, what motivates people.

另一方面，我听说苹果的高层最初对他的离职感到惊讶，惊讶于这个职位的人竟然会离开苹果去Meta这样的公司，是的。

Flip side of that is I have heard that, you know, Apple senior management initially was surprised that he left, surprised that anybody in that position would leave to go to of all companies meta Yeah.

他们有点惊讶地说：‘哇。’

And sort of had a, wow.

我们看错这个人了。

We had that guy pegged wrong.

在最初的几天，或者说第一周，大家都很惊讶之后，他们又惊讶地发现，除了他身边的核心圈子——那些要么全跟着他去了Meta，要么也离开了苹果的人——艾伦·戴的整个核心团队，大约有十个人左右，要么跟着他走，要么离开了苹果。

And then after in the initial days or, like, that first week where it was all a big surprise, they were also surprised to find out that other than the inner circle around him who either all left with him for Meta or also just left Apple, like, it Allen Dye's whole inner circle, like, would say up to about 10 people probably left with him or left Apple.

但苹果的其他设计师们得知他离开后，简直在庆祝，这让苹果高层也感到意外。

But the rest of the designers at Apple, they were like partying that he was gone, and that took Apple senior leadership by surprise too.

你可以将此视为一种功能失调的迹象——他们竟然不知道，或者那些乐于看到艾伦·戴克离开的人无法被听见，而高层对苹果其他软件设计师的看法完全错了。我认为这在一定程度上确实反映了功能失调。

And you could take it as a sign of dysfunction that they didn't know or that the those people who are happy to see Allen Dyke go couldn't get themselves heard and that the senior leadership had that wrong of a sense of the rest of the software designers at Apple, and I do think it is to some degree a sign of dysfunction.

但这也让他们感到意外，不过我认为这真正触动了他们。

But that took them by surprise too, but I think it hit home.

他们心想：哦。

And they're like, oh.

但值得一提的是，从史蒂夫·乔布斯时代起，他们就一直如此——并不是说他们从不犯错。

And to their credit, over the years, all the way back to Steve Jobs, they they it's not that they never make mistakes.

而是苹果在最出色的时候，能够意识到自己犯了错，并加以纠正。

It's that Apple at its best recognizes when they've made a mistake, and they correct it.

我希望，但愿如此，我们将在软件界面设计上看到这样的转变。

And I I think that we hopefully, knock on wood, are going to see that with software interface design.

我真的这么认为。

I really do.

再说，这也不是非此即彼。

Again, it's not neither or.

我只是说，你知道的？

I just you know?

是的。

Yeah.

你需要一个健康的环境，让所有这些因素都能得到妥善考虑，但很久以来，那里似乎并没有这样的氛围。

You want a healthy environment where all of that stuff gets considered properly, and it doesn't feel like that that's been the environment there for a while.

所以，没错。

So Yeah.

另外，也许他是个非常出色的政治操盘手，总能让上面的人感到满意。

Also, maybe something about what a great political operator he is, but he's keeping everybody happy above them.

他们永远都不会知道这一点。

They are never gonna know that

他们并不知情，因此这在政治上并不算……是的。

And they don't know, and that it's therefore politically not yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

他作为一个政治操盘手如此成功，以至于让上面的人感到满意，却让他们忽视了下面的人有多么不满。

That he was so successful as a political operator that he kept them happy and kept them from recognizing how unhappy the people under him were.

这也解释了他为何能取得成功。

And that explains why he was successful.

总之，我这里先休息一下，感谢我们节目的第一位赞助商——Notion。

Anyway, I'm I'm gonna take a break here and thank our first sponsor of the show, and it is our friends at Notion.

Notion 将你的笔记、文档和项目整合到一个无缝连接的空间中，使用起来非常顺畅。

Notion brings all your notes, docs, and projects into one connected space that just works.

这是一个无缝、灵活、强大且易用，甚至用起来很有趣的系统。

It's a seamless, flexible, powerful, and easy, and actually fun to use system.

内置 AI 功能，让你少花时间在工具间切换，多花时间创造出色的工作成果。

With AI built right in, you spend less time switching between tools and more time creating great work.

现在有了 Notion 自定义代理，你能做的事情更多了。

And now with Notion custom agents, you can do so much more.

我们这么说吧，Notion自定义代理的设计目的就是消除繁琐事务。

Let's just say, Notion custom agents are effectively designed to attack busywork.

如果你的繁琐事务突然消失了，你和你的团队能完成什么？

So if your busywork just disappeared, what could you and your team accomplish?

通过他们的新自定义代理来了解一下吧。

Find out with their new custom agents.

自定义代理直接内置于Notion中。

Custom agents live directly inside Notion.

你就在那里创建它们。

That's where you make them.

它们在那里工作，而你的团队也早已掌握了所需的知识。

That's where they work, and that's where your team already has the knowledge that it needs.

以前需要数小时繁琐操作的事情，现在你可以设置自定义代理来自动处理。

So things that used to take hours of busy work, you can set up custom agents that just handle themselves.

可以把它们想象成拥有非常具体职责的团队成员。

Think of them like teammates with very specific jobs.

其中一个例子是一个问答代理，它就像一个客服中心，能立即回答常见问题，这样你就不用整天重复回答，也不会让同样的问题不断在团队的Slack上出现。

One of them is you could examples are like a q and a agent that acts like a help desk answering common questions instantly so that you're not repeating yourself all day or that the same questions don't keep popping up on your team's Slack.

人们可以直接在Notion中提问，如果答案存在于团队共享的Notion数据库中，它就会自动找到并给出答案。

People can just ask within Notion, and if the answer to the question is in your team's Notion shared database, it'll just find the answer and ask it.

生成状态更新，比如不同团队可能需要汇总的每周状态报告。

Generating, like, status updates, like a weekly status update that different teams might need to compile.

你可以让代理自动完成这项工作，它会自动汇总更新内容，并按照你设定的时间表发送状态报告，这样整个团队都能及时同步信息，而无需无休止的跟进，也不用你手动制作每周状态报告。

You can just have the agent do it automatically, and it'll compile the update and send the status report automatically on the schedule you set so that the whole team stays up to date without endless follow ups and that you don't need to manually generate, like, a weekly status report.

当然，你也可以根据自己的具体需求自行创建代理。

And you can, of course, build your own to suit your specific needs.

就在我们开始录制前，我刚读到一篇来自《Mac Stories》周刊通讯的精彩文章，我们的朋友费德里科·韦蒂奇使用Notion自定义代理，构建了他称之为——我想我可能有点替他说话了——但本质上是他理想中的书签管理器、书签应用。

I just read right before we started recording a fantastic post in the Mac stories weekly newsletter with our friend Federico Vettichi used Notion custom agents to build what he calls I think I might be putting words into his mouth, but effectively the bookmark manager, the bookmark app of his dreams.

这是一篇非常棒的文章，它精准地抓住了核心：他只需将书签发送到Notion，然后自定义代理就会自动完成分类工作，比如识别‘这个是关于什么的’，并自动处理书签堆积中的杂乱整理工作。

It's a really good post, and it really does get right to the heart of it where he just sends bookmarks into Notion, and then the custom agent does all the work of categorizing them and like, oh, this is something about this and do does all the busy work of kind of organizing bookmarks in a slush pile automatically.

所以你要做的，就是识别团队每周重复的繁琐工作模式，然后创建一个自定义代理。

So what you do, you just get identify patterns of busy work that your team does every week, and then you create a custom agent.

它与其他AI代理不同，因为它完全集成在Notion中。

And it's different from other AI agents because it's all built into Notion.

你不需要一堆应用程序，再给你的AI应用访问Notion的权限。

You don't need a whole pile of apps and then give your AI app access to Notion.

它全部内置其中，只需在后台自动运行。

It's all built in, and they just work in the background automatically.

Notion被超过50%的《财富》500强公司以及一些全球增长最快的企业使用，比如OpenAI、Ramp和Vercel。

Notion is used by over 50% of Fortune 500 companies and some of the fastest growing companies in the world, like OpenAI, Ramp, and Vercel.

它们都使用Notion和Notion AI来加快内部流程，帮助团队保持领先。

They all use Notion and Notion AI to make their internal processes faster and help their teams stay ahead.

前往 notion.com/talkshow。

Go to notion.com/talkshow.

访问 notion.com/talkshow，他们会知道你是从本节目来的。

Notion.com/talkshow, and they'll know you came from the show.

你今天就可以试用自定义代理。

You can try custom agents today.

Notion.com/talkshow。

Notion.com/talkshow.

所以回到成绩单，我们不必重复所有内容，因为你和迈克已经在那期年度升级节目中讲过了。

So going back to the report card, we don't have to rehash everything because you and Mike do it on that upgrade annual show.

我忘了这件事。

I forget this.

每年我都会忘记。

Every single year, I forget it.

所以现在我只想提一下。

So now I just wanna mention it.

也许我在这档节目中提到它，它就能真正记进我的脑子里了。

Maybe by me mentioning it on the show, it'll finally get into my head.

你不在成绩单上投票。

You don't vote in the report card.

我不参与。

I do not participate.

我只是整理一下数据。

I just compile it.

我的数字并不在其中，除非迈克在《升级》节目中让我谈，否则我根本不会想到数字。

My numbers are not in there, and I don't even think of numbers until Mike makes me talk about it on upgrade.

我听不太清你谈论那个Mac的事，因为我的

Well, I couldn't hear you talking that much about the Mac one because my

耳朵，红雾，是的。

ear The red haze Yes.

是的。

Yes.

你脑子里的蜜蜂嗡嗡作响，所以

Was the bees in your head were buzzing so much that

我的耳膜都快炸了。

And my eardrums were popping out.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但对于其他类别，我能听出你是在现场即兴思考，这确实很了不起。

But for the rest of the categories, I could hear you thinking it through on the fly, which is yeah, amazing.

即使你投了票，今年我觉得一共有56位投票者，评审团成员，嗯。

Even if you did vote, there are I think there were 56 voters this year, panelists Mhmm.

今年。

This year.

所以你的投票对数字的影响不会太大，但这是一种很有趣的哲学观点。

So your vote wouldn't sway the numbers that much, but it's an interesting philosophy.

我想在这一点上

And I guess at this point

我喜欢能够指着它说，这跟我没关系。

I like to be able to point at it and say it's not me.

对吧？

Right?

就像，我喜欢这种清晰明了的感觉。

Like, I like I like the clarity of that.

因为在早期，尤其是那时，人们会看到他们不同意的内容，然后给我发愤怒的邮件。

Because in the early days, especially, people would see things that they didn't agree with, and they would write me angry emails.

他们说：你怎么敢这么说？

They're like, how dare you say this?

我会说：不是我。

I'm like, not me.

是别人。

Other people.

不是我。

Not me.

我能推卸责任，约翰。

I get to deny it's deniability, John.

我就是要达到这个效果。

That's what I'm going for.

推卸责任。

Deniability.

是的

Yeah.

但你确实收集这些引语。

But you do collect the quotes.

没错。

It's true.

你挑选引语。

You pull quotes.

你选择引语，这是一项很有趣的工作。

Do select the quotes, and that's an interesting task.

我现在有一位编辑助理，会为我提前整理出一堆优质的引语。

I now have an an editorial assistant who tees up a bunch of good quotes for me.

那就是克劳德。

That's Claude.

因为世界上最糟糕的事，就是像前几年那样，搞那种斯科特指南式的东西，到处是零星的引语，实在太费劲了。

Because the worst thing in the world is looking trying to do like the first couple years, did like a Scott Guide style thing where it was little quotes here and there, and it's just it's so much work.

这使得事情无法继续下去。

It's it makes it untenable.

所以现在，我使用AI分析来提取大量可能的引语，然后我会扔掉一半，重新排列很多，再从原始内容中挑出那些我觉得没被充分体现的。

So now, I have an AI analysis where it pulls out like a load of possible quotes, and then I end up throwing half of them away, moving a bunch of them around, pulling ones out that are in the original that I felt weren't being reflected.

不过它确实为我节省了一些时间。

It saves me some time though.

然后，你知道的，是的，因为这是AI，我也会确保所有内容都是逐字准确的，而它确实做到了。

And then, you know, yes, because it's AI, I also make sure that everything is verbatim, which it was.

我要给AI点赞，当我明确要求不要编造任何内容，只使用符合新闻准则的直接引语时，它这次真的做到了。

I to to the credit of the AI, when I said do not invent anything, only direct quotes following journalistic practice, it actually did at this time.

但仍然，当我发现每个人都在称赞苹果的硬件时，有三个人说了同一个笑话。

But still, I had moments where everybody's praising Apple's hardware, and three separate people made the same joke.

我确保把所有这些都收录进去，并把它们排在一起，说明负责硬件的人或许该成为下一任CEO。

And I made sure to get all those in there and line them all up about how whoever's in charge of hardware might need to be the next CEO.

是的。

Yes.

所以是的。

So yeah.

对。

Yeah.

有很多内容。

There's a lot.

有三万两千个单词。

There's 32,000 words.

克里斯蒂娜·沃伦总是写得最多，因为她以前是个科技博主，现在不是了。

Christina Warren always writes the most of anybody because she used to be a tech blogger, and now she's not.

所以我觉得这是她大放异彩的时候了。

And so I think she feels like this is her time to shine.

尽管她刚做完手术，还在她内容的末尾给我留了条子，说她是在止痛药的作用下写完的。

Although she did just have surgery, and she left me a note at the end of her thing that said, I did this all high on painkillers.

没关系。

It's okay.

说得有道理。

Fair enough.

但内容还是很好的。

But it's still good stuff.

所以我读了关于止痛药的那部分，但其余的没看。

So I read the top thing about painkillers, but I left the rest of it.

我

I

我应该趁她还在吃药的时候请她上节目。

should I should get her on the show soon while she's still on them.

这可能会很有趣。

It might be fun.

是的。

Yeah.

她做了脊椎手术之类的，所以情况确实挺严重的，但这并没有阻止她写下几千字，就关于她的

She had a spinal surgery or something, so she was definitely pretty serious, but she didn't stop her from writing, like, several thousand words just on her

自己。

own.

这真是个有趣的免责声明。

That's a very fun disclaimer.

我以为我从头到尾读完了，看到克里斯蒂娜又写了好几千字，就一直读到了结尾。

I thought I read it from top to bottom, so I got to the end after seeing, like, oh, Christina's writing thousands of words again.

我读到结尾时，她说：嗨，杰森。

And I get to the end, she says, hi, Jason.

我是在止痛药的作用下写的。

I did this on painkillers.

好的。

K.

好吧，这个解释我接受了。

Well, ex explanation accepted.

我觉得升级那一集中一个有趣的元评论是关于重新命名的，我刚刚意识到，我需要重新命名我自己的已发布成绩单中的子分类。

I thought one of the interesting meta commentaries from the upgrade episode was on the renamed I actually I just realized I need to rename my own subcategory on my own published report card.

以前叫社会与社会影响。

Used to be called social and societal impact.

对。

Right.

现在改成了苹果对世界的影响。

Now it's just called Apple's impact on the world.

嗯，大概就是对世界的影响吧。

Like, I guess impact on the world.

是的。

Yeah.

随便你吧，是的。

Whatever you wanna yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一个大杂烩，基于苹果总是说他们希望让世界比他们发现时更美好，并且他们有各种各样的举措。

It's the grab bag that is based on Apple always says they wanna leave the world a better place than they found it, and they've got these various initiatives.

当我2014年左右开始做这件事时，当时的思路是：他们做得怎么样？

And when I started doing this in 2014 or whatever, the idea was how they doing?

基于每个人对这句话的不同理解，他们是否兑现了自己所说的那些承诺？

Based on everybody's own interpretation of that, how are they living up to the stuff that they say?

因为我们都知道，这是一家大型上市公司。

Because we all know it's a giant corporation owned by it's a public corporation.

股东们关心的是股价。

Shareholders care about the stock price.

它的存在就是为了赚钱，但他们也经常谈论自己所信奉的其他理念，比如希望让世界变得更美好等等。

It's made there to make money, but they also do talk about these other aspects of what they believe in and how they wanna leave the world a better place, etcetera, etcetera.

我觉得设立一个类别，让人们可以评价他们是否兑现了这些承诺，是完全公平的。

And I thought it was only fair to have a category where people could say, how do they live up to that?

我承认，我确实没料到这个类别在过去几年会发展到如今这个程度，但当初设立这个类别的初衷就是如此。

Now I admit I didn't really expect it going quite where it's gone the last few years, but that was always the intent with that category.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，是的，布伦特让我开始这么做。

And, yeah, Brent got me going.

他逼着我做的。

He forced me to.

我也不怕写东西。

And I'm not afraid to write.

任何读过这个网站的人都知道，我不怕深入探讨特朗普政府二点零时期的政事，以及蒂姆·库克在其中的角色，还有他如何让苹果卷入其中，比如那个该死的24K金奖杯，上面还带着苹果标志。

I as anybody who reads the site knows, I'm not afraid to wade into the Trump two point o administration politics and Tim Cook's role in it and the way he's dragging Apple into it with things like the goddamn 24 karat gold trophy with an Apple logo on it.

没错。

Yep.

所以你知道的，可以对比一下：蒂姆·库克个人掏一百万美元买个就职典礼的好座位，或者 whatever 那场闹剧， versus 苹果公司捐出一百万美元。

So what you know, which is compare and contrast with Tim Cook personally paying a million dollars to get a good seat at the inauguration or whatever the hell that racket was as opposed to Apple paying a million dollar donate donating.

抱歉。

I'm sorry.

捐一百万美元给就职典礼委员会。

Donating a million dollars to the inauguration committee.

但一旦你开始发放带有苹果标志的奖杯，你就明显把公司卷入其中了。

But once you're giving trophies out with the Apple logo on, you are clearly bringing the company into it.

而且评审团并不喜欢苹果今年对世界的影响。

And the panel did not like Apple's impact on the world this year.

他们确实不喜欢。

It was They did not.

这简直就是个不及格。

It's a straight up f.

这简直就是个不及格。

It was a straight up f.

但我觉得这非常有趣，我认为你说得对，就像你在和迈克的节目中提到的，房间里那种氛围，就是那种察言观色的感觉，是的。

And but I thought it was really interesting, and I think it's probably true that what'd you say on the show with Mike, that the vibe in the room, the sorta just read the room and Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

因为这整个评选的目的就是，我认为，任何关注人们撰写和谈论苹果内容的人都不应该对这份报告中的任何内容感到惊讶，因为它反映的正是你们在这一年中感受到的那种情绪。

The because that's the goal of the whole thing is it I don't think anybody who's following what people are writing and saying about Apple should be surprised by anything in the report card because what it's reflecting is those feelings that you all felt during the year.

这就像是给那种我们感受到的氛围一个具体的数字。

It is like to put a number to whatever that vibe was that we were feeling.

而且毫无疑问，那种氛围很糟糕，我不禁想知道这些感受在其他评分中是如何体现的。

And definitely, the vibes were bad about that, and I do wonder how they were reflected in other scores.

我不确定具体细节，但我知道节目的朋友、社会学教授基兰·希利每年都会做这件事。

I don't know that for certain, although I know friend of the show, Kieran Healy, the sociology professor, is doing he does every year.

他只是拿我的数据做一些分析，制作一些有趣的图表。

He just takes my numbers and does some analysis and make some fun charts.

我知道他对这个话题很感兴趣，想直接研究一下：对世界影响的负面情绪，是否也会拉低其他评分？

And I know he was interested in looking into that actually directly about does the sentiment about the world impact, is that something that sort of drives other scores down too?

因为人们现在就是对苹果感到烦躁。

Because people are just grumpy.

他们现在对苹果就是很不爽，我觉得这确实有一定道理。

They're just grumpy about Apple right now, and I think there's some truth to that.

但是啊。

But Yeah.

我还没看过基兰的数据到

I haven't looked at Kieran's numbers to

是的。

Yeah.

基兰既是才华横溢的数据科学家，也是非常出色的作家。

Kieran is both a talented data scientist and a very talented author.

我读过几本他的书，虽然一时想不起书名，但至少读过两本，都非常棒。

I've read I don't have the titles off the top of my head, but I've read at least two of his books, and they're excellent.

很棒。

Excellent.

真是个出色的作家。

Just a great writer.

数据可视化与序数社会。

Data Visualization and the Ordinal Society.

是的。

Yeah.

两本出色的

Two excellent

数据可视化。

Data Visualization.

他是，他是我认识的一位教授。

He's a he's a professor at I know.

我尽量不因此对他有偏见。

I try not to hold that against him.

我知道。

I know.

我也是。

Same.

这是卡罗来纳地区的斯坦福。

It's a Stanford of of the Carolinas.

是的。

Yeah.

哦，我的意思是带点贬义的。

Oh, I mean that pejoratively.

你不必像基兰那样成为世界顶尖的数据可视化专家，我是认真的。

You don't have to be a world leading data visualization scientists like Kieran, and I mean that sincerely.

他真的只是会想，哦，是的。

He really is to just sort of think, oh, yeah.

有趣的是，可以看看那些给苹果在世界影响力方面打低分的人，和那些没有这么做的与会者，看看那些给苹果打三分及以上的人——我不确定这个分界线在哪里。

It would be interesting to take the people who gave Apple particularly low scores on impact on the world and the people who didn't amongst the panelists and see, oh, amongst the people who gave them a grade of this or above, I don't know where the line would be.

比如说三分及以上。

Let's say three three and above.

他们给其他所有项目的评分，是否比那些给苹果打一分或二分的人更高？

Did they grade everything else a bit higher than the people who gave them a two or a one?

而且，一分，不是零分，是评分表上最低的分数。

And one, not zero, is the lowest score you can give on the report card.

是的。

Yeah.

这会非常有趣，我敢打赌，确实，那些给苹果在这一项打低分的人，他们的其他所有项目评分都更受这一项的影响。

That would be really interesting, and I would bet money that, yes, that the people who gave Apple a low score that this one category informs more than any other category how they graded all the other categories.

我遇到过这种情况，我想，是的，这并不令人意外。

And I I ran into this, and I think, yeah, no surprise groups.

小时候有一些老师非常喜欢我，也有一些老师不喜欢我。

There were some teachers growing up who really liked me, and there were other teachers who did not.

所以你说，你小时候是个颇具争议的人物。

So I know as child, you were a polarizing figure is what you said.

我是个非常具有争议性的人。

I was a very polarizing figure.

我知道有一个不喜欢你的老师是什么感觉，你在评分上得不到任何优待。

And I know what it's like to have a teacher who does not like me, and you don't get any slack on the grading.

没错。

Right.

一点都没有。

None.

我知道，这正是那种感受。

I know it's and it is exactly that sentiment.

他们并不是说扣分不公平或无理由。

And they don't not that they took points off unfairly or unjustifiably.

‘无理由’这个词比‘不公平’更贴切。

It's a better word than unfairly.

无理由。

Unjustifiably.

他们总能找到理由解释为什么这样扣分，比如扣我一整分而不是半分之类的。

You they could find justifications for why this was wrong or I got a full point off as opposed to a half point off or whatever.

但我不会得到任何宽容，因为我对这位老师太不礼貌了。

But I wasn't gonna get any slack because I was being a jackass to this teacher.

是的。

Yeah.

当这是一门艺术时，他会想：我为什么要对他网开一面？

When there's an art to it, he's like, why would I give the benefit of the doubt?

是的，我同意。

And I yes.

我觉得确实如此。

I think that there is.

样本量很小。

It's a small sample.

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

但我认为，基兰在看过他的报告后，大概也会同意：那些给出极差的世界影响评分的人，往往也会给出其他较低的评分。

But I I think Kieran would probably agree having looked at his report a little bit that, yes, people who gave really bad world impact scores tended to give other lower scores.

但这并不一定意味着他们只是脾气不好。

That doesn't necessarily mean maybe they're just grumpy people.

这一点也是对的。

That's also true.

我并没有提供任何评分指导。

I don't give any guidance for how to score.

比如，有人可能全部给五分和四分。

Like, somebody could do all fives and fours.

有人也可能全部给一分和二分。

Somebody could do all ones and twos.

我没有告诉他们三分意味着什么。

Like, I don't tell them this is what a three means.

评分纯粹是从一分最差到五分最好，仅此而已。

It's literally rated from one worst to five best, and that's it.

然后我们再从那里开始分析。

And then we go from there.

但毫无疑问，整体氛围很糟糕。

But certainly, the vibes were bad.

甚至我认为，评审团的一些评论很有意思，因为这里确实存在一些细微差别。

And even I would say, I think some of the panel's comments were interesting in that there is nuance here.

对吧？

Right?

关于动机存在一些细微差别，比如试图防止关税摧毁你的销售额和利润等等。

There's nuance about the motivation, like, to try and prevent tariffs from killing your sales figures and your profits and all of that.

有些人说，我理解你为什么会这么做。

Some people were like, I get why you would do this.

我有几个像约翰·锡拉丘兹这样的人，他们直接问到了根本问题：如果你从不说‘去你的’，那拥有‘去你的’的钱有什么意义？

I had several people like John Syracuse, I think, just went to the fundamental, what's the point of having f u money if you never say f u?

这真的很棒。

That's really good.

我一直在想的是，我不断回到这个类别存在的原因，那就是苹果一直试图——我不是说这完全是空洞的公关。

And and then what I keep thinking is I keep coming back to the reason that category exists, which is that Apple has always tried to, like, use I don't mean this that it was empty PR.

这是一种服务于公司形象的公关。

It's PR that serves the company's image.

我相信也存在支持这种做法的企业文化。

I do believe there's also corporate culture that supports it.

这种理念是我们希望让世界变得更美好，希望留下更好的东西，环境问题很重要，所有这些事情都是我们真心相信的，同时我们也想赚很多钱。

This idea that we wanna make the world a better place, and we wanna leave things better, and that the environmental stuff matters, and that all of this stuff is like we do believe stuff, plus we wanna make a lot of money.

我认为，这是过去一年发生的事情中一个微妙的点——抛开其他技术细节不谈，蒂姆·库克很难发一条关于马丁·路德·金或世界上某地发生的悲剧的帖子，让人觉得：看，苹果不只是卖电脑的。

And that's I think a nuance of what happened in this last year, which is and this is how I feel certainly, is we leaving aside the mechanics of the rest of it, really hard for Tim Cook to post a thing about Martin Luther King or a tragedy that happened somewhere in the world where you could be like, oh, see Apple, it's not just about selling computers.

它还关乎其他事情。

It's also about this other stuff.

我认为，对很多人来说，苹果的这一面在2025年被彻底剥离了。

And I think for a lot of people, that aspect of Apple just got stripped away in 2025.

就好像，别再尝试这些事了。

It's like, don't even try that stuff anymore.

你对世界的影响，显然就是尽可能多地赚钱，尽可能多地卖手机。

Your impact on the world is obviously to make as much money as possible, sell as many phones as possible.

我们为什么要假装事情不是这样呢？

Why are we pretending that it's otherwise?

今年我感受到了很多这种态度。

Got a lot of that this year.

是的。

Yeah.

另外，我注意到，今年苹果公司一如过去至少十多年——甚至可能更久——在马丁·路德·金纪念日当天，再次将苹果官网首页专门献给了金博士。

And I and as a side note, I noticed because Apple did as they, I think, have done for at least over a decade, probably much longer than a decade on Martin Luther King Junior Day this year, dedicate the homepage of apple.com, the front page of apple.com to doctor King.

他们又这么做了。

They did it again.

我认为，如果蒂姆·库克和苹果公司在特朗普第二任期的第一年采取了不同的做法，可能会有更多人说：嘿。

And I think that if Tim Cook and Apple had played year one of the second Trump administration differently, that there would have been more people saying, hey.

你看。

And look.

苹果公司依然在做这件事。

Apple is still doing this too.

但我没看到任何人因此肯定苹果的这一举动。

I didn't see anybody give Apple any credit for the fact that they're still doing that.

尽管还有其他公司，我就点名Meta吧，他们在特朗普再次当选后，明确改变了政治立场，说：哦，是的。

Even though there are other companies, and I'll just throw Meta under the bus, who have explicitly changed their political stance explicitly once Trump was reelected to say, oh, yeah.

扎克伯格好像说过类似‘我们需要更多阳刚之气’之类带有隐喻的言论。

We're I think Zuckerberg said something like we need more masculine energy and all sorts of coded terms like that.

你在说什么啊？

Like, what the hell are you talking about?

你知道的，就在特朗普给美国男子冰球队打电话，祝贺他们赢得金牌的时候，开了个玩笑，你们都知道的。

You know, but right there in line with Trump cracking a joke on the phone to the men US men's hockey team for winning a gold medal that you guys know.

他说了类似这样的话：‘现在我得邀请女子队了，因为如果不请的话，我可能会被弹劾’，这简直让人无语。

He said something like, you guys know now I gotta invite the women's team too because I'd get impeached if I didn't, which it's like, hey.

我真的很开心，今年我特别投入地观看了冬奥会，看了男子队在金牌赛中击败加拿大，我非常兴奋。

I'm really happy, and I got really into the Olympic the Winter Olympics this year, and I watched the men beat Canada in the gold medal game, and I was very excited.

但这是男子队自1980年以来首次赢得金牌，而女子队每年都会赢金牌，真的。

But that's the first time the men have won the gold medal since 1980, and the women will win the gold medal every freaking year and are Yeah.

她们是国际体育界最强大的队伍之一。

One of the biggest juggernauts in international sports.

美国女子冰球队的整体实力远超美国男子冰球队。

Like, the US women's ice hockey team is so much better than the met US men's ice hockey team as an institution.

这简直荒谬到可笑。

It's not even funny.

更不用说，即使他们只是像男子队那样每四十六年才赢一次。

Let alone even if they'd only won on the same pace as the men, like, every forty six years.

这话说得多伤人啊。

How insulting a comment that is.

而扎克伯格在Meta公司就明确说过，公司需要更多男性能量，但苹果和蒂姆·库克可没说这种蠢话。

And that's exactly where Zuckerberg explicitly went at Meta with this company needs more masculine energy, and Apple and Tim Cook aren't saying any nonsense like that.

他们仍然会做些事情，比如在马丁·路德·金纪念日把主页献给他。

And they're still doing things like dedicating the home page to Martin Luther King on Martin Luther King Day.

他们也没有改变任何关于多样性、公平与包容的内部人力资源政策。

And they haven't changed any of their HR policies surrounding lowercase diversity, equity, and inclusion within the company.

他们一直使用一些奇怪的术语。

And they've always had weird terms.

我记得黛德丽·奥布莱恩的头衔是‘人员总监’之类的，而不是人力资源部。

They call it like, I think Deirdre O'Brien's title is director of people or something like that instead of HR.

他们一直使用一些奇怪的术语，虽然没有明确用大写的DEI字样，但实质内容从未改变。

And they've always had weird terms that aren't like DEI explicitly in capital letters, but that they still had they didn't change anything.

他们还重新调整了一批术语。

They also recast a bunch.

所以有几个人提到过，我的意思是，很明显，他们决定如果对此保持沉默，也许这件事就不会发酵，不会让特朗普发飙并要求他们做出改变。

So some a couple people mentioned this that there there is I mean, look, I think it's very clear that they've decided that if they keep quiet about it, maybe it won't become a thing where Trump will freak out and they'll have to change it in some way because he's demanded that they do it.

他们只是改了这些术语。

They like they just or they change the terms.

我认为底特律的工程和制造业务，在过去的时代，他们会谈论底特律人民的多样性。

I I think the Detroit engineering and manufacturing thing that they've got, like, in a different era, they would talk about the diversity of the people of Detroit.

对吧？

Right?

但如今，他们却将其表述为美国制造、汽车业的力量、传统以及底特律的一切。

But instead, they cast it in this era as American manufacturing and the power of the automotive and legacy and Detroit and all of that.

但这固然不错，归根结底，这一切都是隐晦的表达，他们选择了顺从，而不是站出来发声。

But it's that's nice and all, but, like, in the end, it's all coded, and they've made the decision to go along and not stand up.

我们或许可以争论，这是否是一个明智的商业决策。

And we could argue maybe that that was a good business decision or not.

我认为这值得商榷，因为你给了，他们却要求更多。

I think it's arguable because you give and they just ask for more.

但我认为这确实消除了我们可以说‘我们不一样’的可能性。

But I think it's I I think it does eliminate the possibility that you can say, oh, we're different.

我们更优秀。

We're better.

我们关心更大的理想。

We care about bigger ideals.

这看起来简直荒谬。

That seems to be like, come on.

我不认为我是那种相信他们喜欢这样的人。

I I don't think I am not one of those people who believes that they like it.

我认为他们已经决定，作为上市公司的高管，他们必须这么做。

I think they've just decided that in terms of being executives at a public corporation, they this is what they have to do.

我个人的观点是，在特朗普花了大量时间抱怨蒂姆·库克没有和他一起飞往沙特阿拉伯之后，

And my personal theory is that after Trump spent all that time complaining that Tim Apple wasn't on the plane with him to Saudi Arabia Right.

我认为库克明确表示过：我不去沙特阿拉伯。

Which I think Cook specifically was like, I'm not gonna go to Saudi Arabia.

那太过分了。

That's too far.

特朗普不断抱怨蒂姆没有出现。

And Trump complained and complained that Tim didn't show up.

显然，苹果公司的一些人，包括蒂姆·库克，心想：好吧。

And obviously, somebody at Apple, including Tim Cook, were like, okay.

我们现在就答应他所有要求吧。

We're just gonna say yes to anything he asked now.

这是他们自己的问题。

That's on them.

你是说太远了，远得离谱，还是更大程度上的过分？

You mean too far too far by miles or too far bigger?

不是。

No.