本集简介
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最佳状态,最低限度,在这个海拔高度,我可以全力奔跑半英里,直到双手开始颤抖。
Optimal, minimal, and At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start to shake.
我可以回答你的私人问题吗?
Can I answer your personal question?
现在我们只是看到一个突然的结束时间。
Now we're just seeing an abrupt end time.
成为这样的感觉是,本集由AG One赞助,这是一款每日基础营养补充剂,支持全身健康。
What it's like to be This episode is brought to you by AG One, the daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole body health.
我经常被问到,如果只能选一种补充剂,我会选什么,而真正的答案始终是AG One。
I do get asked a lot what I would take if I could only take one supplement, and the true answer is invariably AG one.
它几乎涵盖了所有方面。
It simply covers a ton of bases.
我通常在早上饮用,并且经常在外出时携带他们的旅行装。
I usually drink it in the mornings and frequently take their travel packs with me on the road.
那么AG1是什么?
So what is AG1?
AG1是一种基于科学配方的维生素、益生菌和全食物来源营养素的组合。
AG1 is a science driven formulation of vitamins, probiotics, and whole food sourced nutrients.
单份AG1即可为大脑、肠道和免疫系统提供支持。
In a single scoop, AG1 gives you support for the brain, gut, and immune system.
因此,掌控你的健康,今天就试试AG One吧。
So take ownership of your health and try AG One today.
首次订阅购买时,你将免费获得一年份的维生素D和五个AG One旅行装。
You will get a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free AG One travel packs with your first subscription purchase.
了解更多,去试试看吧。
So learn more, check it out.
前往 drinkag1.com/tim。
Go to drinkag1.com/tim.
那是 drinkagone,数字一。
That's drinkagone, the number one.
drinkag1.com/tim。
Drinkag1.com/tim.
上次是 drinkag1.com/tim。
Last time, drinkag1.com/tim.
姐妹们快去看看。
Check it girls.
我是蒂姆·费里斯,欢迎来到另一期《蒂姆·费里斯秀》,我的任务始终是挖掘世界级表现者的习惯、日常、哲学、最爱书籍等,让你能在自己的生活中加以尝试。
This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show where it is always my job to tease out the habits, routines, philosophies, favorite books, etcetera from world class performers so you can test each of those in your own life.
嘉宾涵盖商业、体育、军事等领域,甚至包括一些深奥或出人意料的人物。
And guests range from say those in business, sports, military, all the way to the esoteric and sometimes the very unexpected.
这位嘉宾符合很多条件。
And this guest checks a lot of boxes.
他的名字叫尼克·萨博,拼写是 s-z-a-b-o。
His name is Nick Szabo, that's s z a b o.
你们中很多人可能不认识他的名字,但希望听完本期节目后,你们会想了解他发布的每一样内容,阅读他发表在网上的每一篇论文。
Many of you may not recognize his name, but hopefully by the end you'll want to know everything that he puts out and read every essay that he puts on the internet.
他是一位通才。
He is a polymath.
他的兴趣和知识的广度与深度真的令人惊叹,可以说是令人瞠目结舌。
The breadth and depth of his interests and knowledge are truly astounding, and I mean jaw dropping.
这家伙能涉猎的领域简直超乎想象。
It's it's just beyond belief what this guy can cover.
他是一位计算机科学家、法律学者和密码学家,以在数字合同和加密货币领域的开创性研究而闻名。
He's a computer scientist, legal scholar, and cryptographer best known for his pioneering research in digital contracts and cryptocurrency.
我长期以来一直对加密货币着迷,但私下里其实并不真正理解它,更不用说其中的细微差别了。
And I've long been fascinated by cryptocurrency, but secretly not really understood anything about it or certainly the subtleties.
这一集简直就是一门大师课。
And this episode is really a master class.
我们将从最基础的内容讲起,一直深入到最前沿,探讨未来的发展方向。
We go from the very, very basic all the way up to the cutting edge and what the future holds.
例如,尼克提出了‘智能合约’这一概念和术语,旨在将他所说的合同法与实践中的高度成熟做法引入到互联网陌生人之间的电子商业协议设计中。
Nick, for instance, developed the phrase and concept of smart contracts with the goal of bringing what he calls the highly evolved practices of contract law and practice to the design of electronic commerce protocols between strangers on the Internet.
尼克还设计了Bit Gold,许多人认为这是比特币的前身。
Nick also designed Bit Gold, which many consider the precursor to Bitcoin.
这次对话由我最喜爱的人之一纳瓦尔·拉维坎特共同主持,他不仅是我的共同好友,也是硅谷最成功的投资者之一,同时还是尼克最忠实的仰慕者之一。
This particular conversation is cohosted by one of my favorite people, Naval Ravikant, a mutual friend and one of the most successful investors in Silicon Valley who also happens to be one of Nick's biggest admirers.
如果你喜欢纳瓦尔在这里的表现,你可能也会喜欢我2015年与他的第一期对话,那期节目在Product Hunt上被评为年度最佳播客节目第二名,仅次于我的杰米·福克斯访谈。
And, for those who enjoy Naval here, you may also enjoy his first episode with me from 2015, which was voted on Product Hunt, the second best podcast episode of the year across all podcasts with the exception of my Jamie Foxx episode.
如果你有兴趣,可以去听一下。
So you can listen to that if you'd like.
那期节目叫《进化天使》,地址是 tim.blog/naval。
It's called the evolutionary angel episode, tim.blog/naval.
但让我们回到我们和尼克讨论的丰富内容,因为确实涵盖了很多话题。
But let's get back to how much we cover with Nick because it's a lot.
你不必感到畏惧。
And you need not be intimidated.
你不需要是计算机科学家。
You don't need to be a computer scientist.
我不是。
I am not.
你不需要了解任何关于货币的知识。
You don't need to know anything about currency.
我懂得很少,但我们深入探讨了货币的历史。
I know very little, but we get into the history of money.
我们讨论了比特币,它是什么,加密货币是什么,以及它们解决了哪些问题。
We talk about Bitcoin, what it is, what cryptocurrencies are, and what problems they solve.
我们定义了社会可扩展性。
We define social scalability.
那是什么?为什么它重要?
What is that and why is it important?
以太坊是什么?
What is Ethereum?
它有什么独特之处?
What makes it unique?
优势和劣势。
Strengths and weaknesses.
我们讨论不同类型的加密货币。
We talk about different types of cryptocurrencies.
我们谈论一些被称为山寨币的东西。
We talk about things called, for instance, altcoin.
那到底是什么东西?
What the hell is that?
我们会深入探讨。
We get into it.
什么是ICO?
What are ICOs?
首次代币发行。
Initial coin offerings.
我们讨论谁可能会投资或不投资,当然这绝不是投资建议。
We talk about who might invest or not invest, and certainly this is not investment advice.
仅供信息参考。
It's for informational purposes only.
所以在分配资源或资金之前,先咨询你的财务专业人士。
So talk to your financial professional before allocating resources or money anywhere.
明白吗?
Okay?
保护我自己。
Cover my ass.
很好。
Good.
智能合约如何才能被广泛采用并走向主流?
How will smart contracts actually get adopted to go mainstream?
对吧?
Right?
如果你觉得比特币还很边缘化,那它什么时候会达到临界点?
If you think of, say, Bitcoin as something that is very fringe, when will it hit the tipping point?
可能有哪些因素会促成这一点?
What might the elements be that would lead to that?
区块链治理。
Blockchain governance.
是否存在生存风险?
Is there any existential risk?
政府或监管机构能否关闭像比特币这样的东西?
Could governments or regulators shut down something like Bitcoin?
什么是湿代码和干代码?
What is wet code versus dry code?
这是一个非常、非常酷的区分,我真的很喜欢。
This is a super, super cool distinction that I really enjoyed.
帕斯卡骗局或量子思维是什么?
What are Pascal's scams or quantum thought?
我们深入探讨了各种角落,包括尼克未来可能从事的工作、他想探索的领域等等。
We dig into all sorts of nooks and crannies, including what Nick might work on in the future, what fields does he want to explore, and so on.
所以对我来说,这是一次非常有趣且拓展思维的对话。
So this was to me a really, really fun and mind expanding conversation.
你不需要懂技术或成为工程师才能享受它并从中获益,因为核心在于,我们真正探讨的是两位非常聪明的人——尼克和纳瓦尔——是如何理解世界的,他们使用哪些思维框架来看待世界,以及这些框架如何影响他们的行为并带来更好的结果。
You do not need to be technical or an engineer to enjoy it and get a lot out of it because at the core, we are really looking at how two people who are very, very smart, meaning Nick and Naval process the world, what lenses they use to view the world, and how that dictates their actions and how they get better results.
所以,如果你想更多地了解尼克,我们也会在对话末尾谈到这一点,但你一定要去看看他博客上的文章,博客名叫‘Unenumerated’。
So if you want more from Nick, and we'll talk about this at the very end of the conversation also, but you have to check out the essays on his blog, which is called unenumerated.
网址是 unenumerated.blogspot.com。
It's unenumerated.blogspot.com.
不过这些可以稍后再谈,到时你就会明白,为什么硅谷和世界各地的许多思想领袖都非常关注尼克。
But that can wait for later, and then you will know why many of the thought leaders in Silicon Valley and around the world really pay a lot of attention to Nick.
那么,不多说了,请尽情享受这场与尼克·萨博的广泛对话。
So without further ado, please enjoy this wide ranging conversation with Nick Szabo.
好的,各位。
Alright, gentlemen.
我想一个小时到了。
I think the hour has arrived.
纳瓦尔,欢迎再次回来。
Naval, welcome back.
谢谢。
Thank you.
很高兴再次回来。
It's good to be back once again.
尼克,很高兴认识你。
Nick, pleasure to meet you.
很高兴认识你。
Nice to meet you.
我对即将进行的这场对话感到非常兴奋,同时也有些紧张。
And I'm very excited and also intimidated by the conversation we're about to have.
为了给听众提供背景,我们将深入探讨一些我非常感兴趣但却极度不了解的主题。
As context for people listening, we're gonna delve into some subjects I have an acute interest in, but extreme ignorance of.
所以我会让纳瓦尔主导大部分内容。
So I will let Naval do a lot of the driving.
我想我们可以从头开始,至少是从你们相识的地方开始。
And I figured the place we could start is at the beginning, at least where you guys met.
你们俩是怎么第一次联系上的?
So how did you two first connect?
是的。
Yeah.
和我如今大多数亲密关系一样,我都是在推特上建立的。
Like most of my close relationships these days, I formed them on Twitter.
我觉得推特是我无法在当地进行深入对话时,去寻找精彩对话的地方,而这种情况似乎一直都在发生。
And I think of Twitter as the place where I go to to have a great conversation when I can't have one locally, which seems to be all the time.
我花在推特上的时间越多,就越能精心筛选出一群极其聪明的人,我纯粹通过他们思想的深度来了解他们。
And the more time that I spend on Twitter, the more I sort of curate this incredible group of very intelligent people that I just get to know purely through the quality of their thoughts.
所以,当我刚开始接触加密货币和区块链、做相关研究时,偶然发现了一个叫《Unenumerated》的博客。
And so I think when I was getting into cryptocurrencies and blockchains, doing my homework on it, I stumbled across a blog called unenumerated.
也许尼克可以讲讲这个词的由来。
And maybe Nick can go into what the origins of that word are.
但很明显,这个博客的作者是个通才,他写的内容涵盖了我感兴趣的方方面面。
But it was obviously written by a polymath, someone who wrote about everything I got into the blog.
然后我开始关注这位作者,也就是推特上的尼克,转发了几条他的推文,参与了一些简短的160字符对话,现在我们就在这里了。
And then I started following the author, was Nick on Twitter, retweeted a few of his tweets and got into little bite sized 160 character conversations, and here we are.
这段关系是如何发展起来的?
How how is that relationship developed?
换句话说,我们今天为什么会在这里?
In other words, how are we here today?
你可以试着解释一下。
And you could take a stab at that.
是的。
Yeah.
尼克待会儿会说很多,所以我们当然会让他发表意见。
Nick's gonna do plenty of talking, so we certainly have him chime in.
但如果你愿意,可以引导我们了解一下我们是怎么走到今天的。
But if you wanna if you wanna lead us to how we ended up here today.
是的。
Yeah.
我只是越来越多地和他互推推文,阅读尼克的文章。
I mean, was just more and more tweeting back and forth, reading Nick's articles.
他最近发布了一篇关于社交可扩展性的文章,我觉得简直令人震撼。
There's one that he put up recently around social scalability, which I thought was literally mind blowing.
我以为自己对加密货币已经了解很多了,但这篇文章真的帮助我用更好的思维模型重新梳理了我所知道的内容。
Like, I thought I knew a lot about cryptocurrencies, but it really just helped me reframe what I knew in a better mental model.
你知道查理·芒格常说的思维模型吧?我实际上从尼克那里学到了至少四五个思维模型,我觉得这比从其他任何人那里学到的都要多,除了查理·芒格。
You know how Charlie Munger talks about mental models so I've actually picked up at least four or five mental models from Nick, which I think is more than I may have from any human being other than Charlie Munger.
我一直在推特上分享那篇文章的段落。
I was tweeting out sections of that article.
然后有人说:尼克和纳瓦尔应该做个播客。
Then somebody said, well, Nick and Naval should do a podcast.
我当时想:他们从来不会和我一起做播客。
And I was like, well, they never do a podcast with me.
然后尼克说:好啊。
And then Nick said, sure.
我来做一个播客。
I'll do a podcast.
所以我们现在在这儿了。
So here we are.
尼克,
Nick,
你能帮我们澄清一些定义吗?
could you maybe help us with some definitions?
加密货币,后面还会提到很多其他术语。
So cryptocurrency, there are a number of other words that are gonna come up a lot.
这些术语我在很多晚餐派对上都发现,硅谷的人们不敢问,因为他们怕自己是唯一一个不知道如何定义它们的人。
And these are words that I feel at many dinner parties and say Silicon Valley, people will not ask about because they're afraid they're the only ones at the table who don't actually know how to define it.
但既然我无法假装自己知道那些我不懂的东西,那么什么是加密货币?
But since I I can't play the part of knowing what I don't know in this case, what is cryptocurrency?
你是怎么对它产生兴趣,或者开始思考它的?
And how did you become interested in it or start thinking about it?
加密货币,顾名思义,是通过密码学来保护的。
Cryptocurrency, as the name suggests, is protected by cryptography.
特别是像比特币和以太坊这样的现代加密货币,其完整性由密码学保护,这种结构被称为默克尔树,你可以把它想象成一只苍蝇被裹在琥珀里。
And in particular, the modern cryptocurrency like Bitcoin and Ethereum and so forth are protected by their integrity is protected by cryptography, a structure called a Merkle tree that you can think of it as a fly getting trapped in amber.
如果你说‘我刺杀了肯尼迪’,然后通过默克尔树的处理将其上链,那么它就永远在那里了。
You if you say I shot JFK and then put it through this process of the Merkle tree putting it on the Blockchain, then it's there.
你用你的私钥签名后,就无法再否认说‘我没说过那句话’。
You can't and you've signed it with your with your private key, then you can't later deny, oh, I shot didn't say that.
这让你能够做出声明,比如‘我正在向某人支付一定数量的比特币’,然后将其上链,经过几次称为区块时间的周期,每次大约十分钟。
That allows you to, like, make a statement, you know, I'm paying such and such amount of Bitcoin to somebody else, and then put it there, after a few cycles called block times, which take about ten minutes each.
随着时间推移,否认或撤销这笔交易的难度呈指数级增加。
It gets exponentially more difficult to deny or take back that that this transaction took place.
你最初是怎么开始思考这类概念的呢?
How did you first begin thinking about this these these types
或者任何这些相关的东西?
of constructs or any of this really?
你的兴趣是从哪里开始的?
Where did the interests begin?
嗯,上世纪九十年代我们有一个叫密码朋克的团体,包括蒂姆·梅、埃里克·休斯、约翰·吉尔莫等人。
Well, we had a a group called The Cypherpunks back in the nineteen nineties, Tim May and Eric Hughes and John Gilmore and so forth.
蒂姆·梅的部分想法带有政治色彩,他设想了一个网络空间中的阿特拉斯耸肩。
And, Tim May had so partly this is political, that Tim May had a a vision of Galt's sculch in cyberspace.
如果你或你的观众是Ayn Rand的粉丝,你们会认出‘盖尔特’这个概念——那是一个可以远离外界干扰、自由开展业务的地方。
So if any of your, audience or Ayn Rand fans, they'll they'll recognize the reference to Galt's Galt as this place you can go to get away from things and do your business, without outside interference.
在小说里,这像是一个物理学幻想,但蒂姆说:我们现在有了强大的加密技术,所以我们可以实现它。
In in the book, that was like a physics fantasy, but Tim goes, well, we have strong cryptography now, so we can do that.
我想,没错,但你仍然希望做些事情,比如执行合同、保护财产等等。
And I thought, well, yes, but you still wanna do things like, enforce contracts and protect property and so forth.
于是我开始思考,某种程度上,其他人也开始思考如何运用计算机科学来保护网络空间中的商业活动。
So I started thinking about, and to some extent, some other people started thinking about how to apply computer science to protect your business in cyberspace.
这与我读过的少量内容有所关联,刚好足以让我提出一些问题。
This bleeds into I did just enough reading to hopefully have questions to ask.
我不想读太多,以至于忽略了为普通人讲解基本原理。
I didn't want to read so much that I left out basics, fundamentals for people.
密码学。
Cryptography.
如果大多数人听到这个词,他们可能只是在电影里见过恩尼格玛机之类的东西。
If if most people think that, they hear that word, maybe the exposure they've had is watching a movie that involves an enigma machine or something like that.
但到底什么是密码学?
But what what is cryptography?
最初的密码学,就像你看到的那部电影里那样,就是保守秘密。
The original cryptography is is if you saw that movie, is keeping secrets.
是的。
Mhmm.
在那部电影里,纳粹因为密码不够强大,没能守住秘密,而英国的艾伦·图灵做到了。
This case in that movie, the Nazis failing to keep secrets from the British and Alan Turing because their cryptography wasn't strong enough.
但如今,你拥有非常强大的密码学技术。
But these days, you have really strong cryptography.
所以,像当年破解纳粹密码那样通过暴力破解的方式,如今几乎不可能了。
So breaking it in that brute force manner like, they broke the Nazi codes is is pretty unlikely these days.
对。
Mhmm.
还有一些其他方法,比如窃取人们的私钥等等,但暴力攻击已经行不通了。
There are some other things you can do, like take people's private keys and so forth, but, the brute force attack doesn't work anymore.
我的意思是,有些旧的加密算法我们已经开始能破解了,但只要你使用像比特币那样的最新技术,那就没问题。
I mean, there are some old ciphers where we're we're starting to work, but as long as you have the latest stuff like Bitcoin does, then then you're fine.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这本质上是通过数学来保守秘密。
I would say it's like basically keeping secrets through mathematics.
对。
Mhmm.
还有很多重大突破推动了加密货币的发展。
And there are many, many breakthroughs that enable cryptocurrencies.
但在密码学中,有一个关键概念需要理解,那就是单向编码,也就是单向哈希函数。
But one of the key things to understand in cryptography is this concept of one way encoding one way hash functions.
基本上,我可以取一些数据,通过数学变换来处理它。
Basically, I can take some data, run it through a mathematical transformation.
从另一端输出的结果非常难以逆向还原。
And what comes out of the other side is really hard to undo.
很难反向推导出原始数据。
It's really hard to work backwards.
所以这本质上是一种单向的过程。
So it's kind of a one way thing.
就像人们通过PGP或其他类似方式发送加密邮件时那样。
So is when people send encrypted email through say PGP or something like that.
这算不算一个例子呢?
Is that an example of that?
是的。
Yeah.
在过去,如果我要加密某些内容,我们俩会使用相同的密钥。
Basically, I've done so in the old days, if I was encrypting something, we would both have the same key.
对吧?
Right?
所以我会有一个密钥,用你的密钥加密,然后发给你,你有密钥,就可以用它解密。
And so I would have a key that I would take your key, would encrypt with your key, send it to you, you have the key, you can decrypt with a key.
但问题是,我怎么知道你的密钥是什么?
But the problem was how do I figure out what your key is?
怎么知道用什么来加密?
To figure out how to encrypt it?
因为你的密钥既能加密也能解密。
And because your key can both encrypt and decrypt.
所以如果我拿到了你的密钥,就能打开你的信息。
So if I had a hold of your key, then I could open the message.
对。
Right.
所以传输这个密钥是非常不安全的。
So it's very unsafe to transmit that key.
因此,后来出现的一项创新就是将密钥拆分为公钥和私钥。
And so one of the innovations that came along was this idea of splitting the key into a public key and a private key.
私钥是你自己保管的,可以用来加密和解密信息;而公钥则不同,别人可以用它来给你加密信息,但他们
So private keys what you hold on to that can decrypt and encrypt stuff, your public key on the other hand, other people can encrypt to it for you, but they
无法用它来解密。
can't use it to decrypt.
这相当于只写不读。
It's a write only.
它只是单向的。
It's a only.
这是一种单向的机制。
It's a one way kind of thing.
我的意思是,这可能超出了我们当前讨论的范围,但值得稍微深入了解一下所谓的一次性哈希函数、公钥和私钥,因为它们是许多加密技术的基础。
So I mean, this is probably beyond the scope of this discussion, but it's worth digging a little bit into what are called one way hash functions and public keys and private keys because they underlie a lot of cryptography.
这些概念看起来很复杂,但实际上并没有那么难。
And they seem like complicated concepts, but they're not that complicated.
我认为,这是你必须理解的一种思维模型,才能在这个现代科技世界中自如运作。
And I would argue this is one of those mental models that you kind of have to figure out to start operating the modern technological world.
但加密货币本质上利用这些单向哈希函数来做出声明。
But cryptocurrencies essentially use these one way hash functions to make statements.
比如,我给了蒂姆10美元,对吧?
Like I gave Tim $10 Right?
如果我说我给了你10美元,通常我们需要一个中心机构来验证这一点。
So if I said, I gave you $10 Normally, we need a central authority to verify that.
比如银行必须验证,中央银行也必须确认。
Like, the bank has to verify that and the central bank has to verify it.
这引出了一个问题,我不会就此多做打断,但为什么要创造加密货币呢?
Well, this leads to the question of and I'm not gonna Yeah.
为什么要去创建加密货币?
Interrupt beyond this, but why why create cryptocurrency?
为什么它很重要?
Why is it important?
有哪些好处?
What are the benefits?
是的。
Yeah.
所以,我的意思是,一个巨大的好处是我们不再需要一个可信的第三方来验证那笔交易了。
So I mean, one huge benefit is we don't need any more a trusted third party to verify that transaction.
我们可以通过分布式网络在云端完成这件事,这大致就是加密货币所实现的。
We can do it in the cloud through a distributed network, which is kind of what the cryptocurrency does.
不过我会让尼克多谈谈这个,但他有一句名言,我认为非常贴切,他说,这是可信计算的黎明,对吧?
But I'll let Nick talk more about this, but he had a great quote that I think is very relevant, where he said, this is the dawn of trustworthy computing, right?
因为在此之前,计算机在某种程度上是不可信的,比如如果我从我的电脑给你转账到你的电脑,我们实际上依赖的是Visa、银行以及一大堆中间机构来确认钱确实转给你了,并且钱不再属于我。
Because before this computer to kind of untrusted, like if I send you money from my computer to your computer, we're really relying on Visa and the banks and a bunch of intermediaries just actually say yes, the money got to you and the money is no longer mine.
但计算机不喜欢那样运作,你知道,计算机代码,尤其是那些在云端自主运行的东西,不应该依赖一个离线的、实体空间的人类机构来强制执行这类事情。
But computers don't like to operate like that computers, you know, computer code, especially stuff that's running in the cloud on its own, shouldn't have to rely on an offline wet space, meat space institution to enforce that kind of thing.
因此,加密货币将货币的概念直接融入计算机中,所有交易都由计算机自行结算,无需外部机构或可信第三方来验证。
So cryptocurrencies take the concept of money and they take it native into computers where everything is settled with computers and doesn't require external institutions or trusted third parties to validate things.
为了尝试用自己的理解来复述一下。
Just to try to paraphrase that from my own understanding.
换句话说,你不必去信任一个陌生人来做某件事。
So in other words, you don't have to say trust a stranger to do something.
你也不必依赖一个中央权威来裁决最终做出或实施的任何决策。
You don't have to trust a central authority to be the arbiter of whatever decisions end up being made or implemented.
这种信任机制内置于技术本身。
It's built into the technology itself.
是的。
Yeah.
为什么加密货币对你来说很重要?
Why why is cryptocurrency important to you?
因此,我认为它重要是因为某种程度上的政治原因——让我们能从这些机构中获得更多的生活独立性。
So it's important for, I think, the the partially political reason to gain more independence of your life from these institutions.
它还创造了新的可能性,比如现在危地马拉的人可以直接与加拿大人建立联系,而无需借助纽约的中介。
And it just creates new capabilities, like somebody now in Guatemala can base somebody in Canada without using an intermediary in New York City or something.
我认为这对全球商业来说具有巨大的优势。
That's just greatly advantageous for for global commerce, I think.
是的。
Yeah.
所以如果我能再深入探讨一下这一点。
So if I can just dig into that a little bit more.
当然,请深入探讨。
Definitely dig in.
我也想提一下,因为这个词困扰了我好几年了——区块链。
I also, at some point, because this word has plagued me for a few years now, Blockchain.
我不明白它是什么意思,也不明白为什么它叫区块链。
I do not know what it means, and I don't know why it's called Blockchain.
实际上,我觉得尼克之前用苍蝇被困在琥珀里的比喻非常精彩。
I actually thought Nick's earlier analogy of a fly getting trapped in amber is kind of brilliant.
比如,如果你看到一只苍蝇被困在琥珀里,周围只有一毫米厚的琥珀,那可能是昨天发生的,也可能是去年发生的。
Like, if you see a fly in amber and it's got, you know, a millimeter of amber around it, well, that could have been done yesterday or, you know, a year ago.
但如果你看到苍蝇被包裹在一大块琥珀里,你就知道它已经在那里很久很久了。
But if you see the fly is trapped in a huge block of amber, you know it's been there for a long, long time.
它一直在不断累积。
It's been accumulating.
所以区块链就是一系列区块的组合。
So a blockchain is a series of blocks.
每个区块都是由全球各地的计算机通过复杂的加密技术完成的一系列计算,这些计算很难被逆转。
Each block is a series of computations done by computers all over the world using serious cryptography in a way that's very hard to undo.
因此,每个区块就像另一层薄薄的琥珀。
So each block is like another thin layer of amber.
我明白了。
I see.
而区块的链条则代表了琥珀的厚度,说明这只苍蝇被困了多久,也因此让你能信任这个真实的信号。
And the chain of blocks represents the depth of that amber, how long that fly has been trapped in, and therefore how you can trust that honest signal.
区块链深处的任何内容在数学上、密码学上以及经济上都不可能被撤销。
Anything deep down in the blockchain is mathematically, cryptographically, and just economically impossible to undo.
明白了。
Got it.
好的。
Okay.
实际上,我不该在密码学中使用像‘不可能’这样的词。
Actually, I shouldn't use words like impossible in cryptography.
这完全是
It's all
一直都不太可能。
it was always improbable.
我正是这个意思,极不可能。
That's what I'm highly improbable.
是的。
Yeah.
还有哪些核心概念是人们应该了解的,比如加密货币或货币的入门知识?
What are some other core concepts that people should understand just as the cryptocurrency one zero one or currency one zero one.
我的意思是,这取决于我们想往哪个方向深入。
I mean, depending on on where we wanna go with this.
我们不妨先从‘什么是钱’开始?
Even wanna start with, like, what is money?
当然。
Sure.
因为我们一直在使用货币、钱这些词,人们还谈论黄金和价值储存。
Because we're throwing around the word currency and money and people talk about gold and store of value.
实际上,尼克创造了比特黄金,有人认为这是比特币的关键前身。
And, you know, Nick actually created Bit Gold, which was some would argue a critical foundational predecessor to Bitcoin.
比特币在比特黄金的基础上又实现了另外一两个突破,但比特黄金是比特币所站立的巨人。
Bitcoin had an additional breakthrough or two that didn't employ that Bit Gold did not, but Bit Gold was the giant on whose shoulders Bitcoin stands.
尼克还创造了‘智能合约’这个术语以及其背后的概念和理论,我们现在在以太坊等其他加密货币的语境中也开始听到这些。
And Nick also created both the the phrase and the concept and the theory behind smart contracts, which we're now starting to hear about in the context of other cryptocurrencies like Ethereum.
但我认为我们应该从最基本的问题开始,因为这个话题已经足够复杂了,值得先弄清楚什么是钱。
But I I think we should just this is a complicated enough topic that is worth just starting with, like, what is money?
如果你问街上十个人什么是钱,你可能会得到十个不同的答案。
If you ask 10 people on the street what money is, you'd probably get 10 different answers.
是的。
Sure.
所以我认为有必要对此进行严谨的界定。
So I think it's important just to be rigorous about that.
如果你问律师,他们的回答会和经济学家的截然不同。
And if you ask a lawyer, you'll get an answer that's radically different than if you ask an economist as well.
如果你问律师,他们会说,比如,一种官方的政府货币。
If you ask a lawyer, they'll say something like an official government currency.
当然,比特币和黄金无法用来开支票,因为它们不是法定的官方政府货币。
So of course, Bitcoin and gold, you can't write checks for those because, those are not legal official government currencies.
所以这是一种狭义的现代法律定义。
So that's the that's the kind of narrow modern legal definition.
经济学家使用交换媒介的定义,这是一个更宽泛的概念,但也假设了只有人们交换物品的交易才是重要的,而在我们现代经济中,这是一个合理的假设。
Economists use the definition of medium of exchange, which is a much broader definition, but that also assumes that, you know, the only important transactions are people exchanging things, which in our modern economy is a good assumption.
但如果你回溯货币的起源——这是我一直很感兴趣的研究领域——你会发现像遗产继承和伤害赔偿这样的事物,相当于现代的诉讼,但并不一定涉及政府和法院,更多是通过战争来执行裁决,以及聘礼。
But if you actually go back to the origins of money, which I've liked to study, you find things like inheritance and compensation for injuries as equivalent to a modern lawsuit, but not necessarily with governments and courts, more like wars to enforce the verdict and, bride wealth.
有一些能力对达尔文适应性至关重要,而其他动物无法做到,人类却可以。
There's certain fitness critical to Darwinian fitness that other animals can't do that humans can.
我倾向于称这种形式为收藏品,因为我已经将货币的定义扩展得比任何经济学家可能愿意接受的都要宽泛。
And that form of I like to call it collectibles because now I've extended the definition of money far broader than probably any economist would want to.
但我称之为收藏品。
But, so I call this collectibles.
所以这非常相似。
So it's very similar.
比如,尤罗克印第安人就用贝壳,而且他们会在手臂上纹身。
So the Yurok Indians, for example, used shells to and they would have tattoo marks on their arm.
他们非常重视自己的贝壳。
They were serious about their shells.
他们会在手臂上纹身,用纹身的长度来衡量贝壳的尺寸,以此表明贝壳的面值和价值,而这与贝壳在自然界中的稀缺程度相对应。
They would have tattoo marks on their arm to measure the length of shells, that told you the denomination, the value of of how valuable that shell was, which corresponds to how scarce it was in nature.
他们会用这些贝壳进行遗产继承、伤害赔偿、彩礼等用途。
And they would use these for inheritance, for injury compensation, for bridewealth, and so forth.
是的。
Yeah.
所以听起来,据我所知,普遍的观点是人类使用货币只有几千年的历史,但我觉得你关于货币起源的研究表明,实际上已经有数十万年了。
So it sounds like, you know, as so I think the the common theory is that humans have only been using money for a few thousand years, but I think some of the work you've done on origins of money shows that actually it's hundreds of thousand years.
对。
Yeah.
你可以追溯到考古记录中,在我们达尔文式世界里,人类生活了十万年之久,这一直是个谜。
You can go back in the archaeological record and it's a puzzle for a 100 thousand years in our Darwinian world that people lived in.
为什么人们会做如此琐碎的事,比如佩戴贝壳项链呢?
Why do people do something so frivolous as, you know, adorn themselves with shell necklaces?
然而,这些贝壳制品在考古发现中极为常见,与用于砍伐的实用斧头一样普遍。
Yet those are among the most common artifacts right up there with axes, practical axes that you can use to cut things in the archaeological record.
是的。
Yeah.
所以,关于钱这个问题,我也一直在试图理解。
So, I mean, on on the money thing, like, I've also tried to wrap my head around this.
正如尼克所说,经济学家会说它是交换媒介。
And as Nick said, economists would say it's a medium of exchange.
根据历史记录,它是一种价值储藏手段。
As the historical record shows, it's a store of value.
所以即使你不进行交换,只是想储存价值,你也不太可能储存面包、石头或房子。
So even if you're not exchanging it, you just want to store value, you may not want to store bread or rocks or houses.
所以你会储存它,或者它们可能具有实用性。
So you store Or they may be practical.
便于携带。
The transport.
没错。
Exactly.
而且它还是一种计价单位。
And then it's also a unit of account.
换句话说,你必须为价格和某些东西设定面额。
So in other words, like you have to denominate prices and something.
我不会告诉你一辆车值多少条面包。
I'm I'm not gonna tell you how many loaves of bread a car costs.
所以我需要能选择一个计价单位。
So I need to be able to just pick a unit of account
来做出判断。
to do judge.
我只偶尔这么做。
I only do that occasionally.
所以它具备所有这些功能。
So it is all of those things.
我认为人们对比特币的一个误解是,他们说现在没人用比特币买东西。
And think I one of the places where people fall down on cryptocurrencies, they say, no one's using Bitcoin to buy anything right now.
所以它可能并未发挥交易媒介的功能。
So it may not be fulfilling the medium of exchange function.
但它可能正在发挥另一种功能,比如价值储藏。
But it is it may be fulfilling a different function like store of value.
它可能是每个人口袋里或脑海中的瑞士银行账户,也可能是抵御塞浦路斯式银行存款削减的手段。
It might be the Swiss bank account in everyone's pocket or in their mind, or it might be the defense against a Cyprus style bank haircut.
或者它可能是已经到来但尚未均匀分布的未来。
Or it could be the the future that is here but not evenly distributed.
而且确实如此。
And per Absolutely.
你现在就可以去帕洛阿尔托的Copa Cafe,用比特币买咖啡。
You can go to Palo Alto to Copa Cafe and buy coffee with Bitcoin right now.
是的。
Yeah.
在我的社交圈里,有一大群人愿意接受比特币作为法定货币。
And and within within my social circle, there is a large group of people who will take Bitcoin as legal tender.
比如,你可以去找他们用比特币结清债务,他们会很高兴接受。
Like, you can go to them and settle debts in Bitcoin, and they will happily take it.
是的。
Yeah.
或者,如果你想购买俄罗斯网站上的科学摘要或文章,它们也可能只接受比特币。
Or if you wanna buy, say, scientific abstracts or articles from a Russian website, they may only take Bitcoin as well.
是的。
Yeah.
而且它确实看起来有点像泡沫,你知道,你会说,它只是钱,因为大家都相信这种货币。但我很喜欢的一个货币定义是:货币就是永不破裂的泡沫。
And and and it does it does seem a little bubbly, which is, you know, you kind of say, well, it's only money because everyone believes this money, but one definition I really liked of money is money is the bubble that never pops.
所以,如果郁金香泡沫从未破裂,我们今天可能还在用郁金香交易。
So if we had if if the tulip bubble had never popped, we'd probably be dealing in tulips today.
现在它破裂了,原因相当充分,因为郁金香不适合作为货币。
Now it popped for fairly good reasons, which is tulips make for lousy money.
它们很难储存。
They're hard to store.
它们难以运输。
They're hard to transport.
它们难以分割。
They're hard to subdivide.
但加密货币实际上恰恰处于这个尺度的另一端。
But cryptocurrencies actually are the exact opposite end of that scale.
它们更容易存储、更易运输、更易分割,在许多方面也更便宜,且比几乎任何其他形式的货币、黄金或商品都更具有抗风险性。
They are easier to store, easier to transport, easier to subdivide, cheaper in many ways, and more defensible than almost any other form of money or gold or commodity.
既然我们在谈论货币或通货,是什么让货币有价值呢?
Now what makes since we're talking about money or currency, what makes money valuable?
我觉得这一点值得深入探讨一下,因为在某些时期,货币是与黄金挂钩的。
I think this might be interesting to just dig into for a second because you have, say, at certain points in time, pegged to gold.
对吧?
Right?
而今天读到的,因为这是我经常看到的另一个词。
And then reading today because it's another word that I've seen a lot.
但除了汽车公司之外,我不确定Fiat到底是什么意思。
But aside from the car company, I was not sure what Fiat really meant.
所以如果我们谈论的是,甚至不确定它们现在是否还存在。
So if we're talking about don't even know if they're even even around anymore.
那么,是什么让加密货币具有价值或使其与众不同?
What distinguishes, say, cryptocurrency or makes cryptocurrency valuable?
是稀缺性吗?
Is it the rarity?
决定这一点的因素有哪些?
What are the factors that that determine that?
嗯,我的意思是,稀缺性是其中至关重要的部分。
Well, I mean, the scarcity is an essential essential part of it.
如果它开始通货膨胀,你的份额就会减少。
You if it starts inflating on you, then your share of it goes down.
所以稀缺性对其而言至关重要。
So the scarcity is quite essential to it.
其他方面,你希望它易于存储和传输,并且安全,而比特币的优势在于你可以向全球各地的人发送比特币,并将其存储在硬件钱包中,这是一种相当安全的存储方式。
Other things are you want it to be easy and secure to store and transport, and and Bitcoin has the advantage that you can send to people all over the world and store it on a hardware wallet, which is a fairly secure way to store it.
而其中最重要的部分是
And the most important part of it
什么是硬件钱包?
What is a hardware wallet?
硬件钱包呢,你的普通电脑其实相当不安全,而区块链的一个关键点就在于,这种分布式系统比单台电脑安全得多。
So hardware wallet so your normal computers are pretty insecure, and that that's one of the stories of blockchains is that this distributed system is a lot more secure than an individual computer.
你的电脑可能会感染恶意软件、病毒等等。
So your own computer could have malware, viruses, and so forth.
所以硬件钱包是一个独立的设备,比如一个U盘,你插上它,它内部有自己的芯片。
So hardware, while it's a separate piece, like on USB stick, you plug in, it has its own chip on it.
在比特币中,你的私钥会被存储在那个芯片上,而不是存储在电脑里。
In Bitcoin, your private key gets stored on that chip rather than, on the computer.
所以
So
明白了。
Got it.
对。
Yeah.
明白了。
Got it.
对。
Yeah.
存储比特币的方法有成千上万种。
There's a zillion ways to store Bitcoin.
你可以存在电脑上,但电脑连接着互联网,存在安全漏洞。
You could do it on your computer, but then your computer is connected to to the Internet security hole.
你可以存在在线交易所,但那就只是在信任一家不受监管的银行。
You could put it in an online exchange, but then you're just trusting an unregulated bank.
你可以存在硬件钱包里,这是尼克·萨博设计的专用设备。
You can put it in a hardware wallet, which says Nick Szabo dedicated device.
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你可以把它写在纸上,然后放进你的银行账户。
You can put it on a piece of paper and stick it in your bank account.
这是冷存储吗?
Is cold that
存储还是
storage or
什么是存储。
what do storage.
是的。
Yeah.
那就是冷存储。
That's cold storage.
你说的词我懂,但不明白它们的意思
You say where I know the words, but not what
它们的含义。
they mean.
这是其中之一,没错。
This is this is one of the yeah.
这个概念中疯狂的一点在于,金钱、货币和言论原来是一回事。
This is one of the crazy things about this concept because money in money and speech turn out to be the same thing.
金钱、信息、数学,它们本质上是一样的。
Money information math, they're the same thing.
在比特币的世界里,我完全可以把我的比特币地址和私钥写在一张纸上,放进保险箱,这就相当于冷存储了。
In So a Bitcoin world, I can literally write down my Bitcoin address and keys on a piece of paper and put it in safety deposit box, and it's basically in cold storage.
我甚至可以把它们记在脑子里。
I could even put it in my head.
我可以记住密钥短语,然后带着十亿美元穿越国境。
I can memorize the key phrases, and I could cross borders with a billion dollars in my brain.
从这个意义上说,这是一个非常强大但令人难以置信的概念。
So in that, it's a very powerful, but mind bending literally concept in that sense.
这时候是不是该谈谈智能合约了?
Is this a point where it makes sense to talk about smart contracts?
还是说这不相干?
Or is that a non sequitur?
不是。
No.
我认为,或者有没有一个好的衔接点?
I think Or is there is there a good bridge?
是的。
Yeah.
不是。
No.
我认为我们应该深入探讨一下。
I think I think we should get into it.
首先,我想确保我们理解区块链和比特币是什么。
First, I I I wanna make sure that we understand what Blockchains and Bitcoin are.
对吧?
Right?
也许值得深入探讨一下,是的。
It might be worth going into, like Yeah.
促成比特币的关键创新有哪些?
What are the key innovations that enabled Bitcoin?
我会让你们决定什么时候切入这个话题,或者你们两位中的任何一位。
And I'll leave you to dictate when this makes sense or either of you guys.
但你发给我的那篇关于所谓‘胖协议层’的文章。
But the article that you sent me about the, I guess, fat protocol layer.
对。
Right.
我们稍后再谈这个。
And get to that later.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
我们来谈一谈
We'll get
这个话题。
there.
这给听众们留了个小悬念。
That's a little teaser for folks.
那我让你来主导吧。
I'll let you lead it then.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我觉得值得深入探讨一下,什么是比特币计算机。
So I I think it's worth getting into, like, what is the Bitcoin computer.
对吧?
Right?
因为从根本上说,你可以将比特币抽象地理解为运行在区块链计算机上,也许尼克可以试着定义一下它是什么。
Because there is basically you you can abstract and think of Bitcoin as running on a blockchain computer, and maybe Nick can take a stab at defining what it is.
这属于那种情况,如果你问加密货币领域的十个人,比特币是什么、区块链是什么、区块链计算机是什么,你会得到十个不同的答案。
By the this is one of those things where I think if you ask 10 different people in cryptocurrencies what Bitcoin is and what a blockchain is and what a blockchain computer is, you'll get 10 different answers.
你知道,有些人比其他人更有资格回答。
You know, some people are more qualified than others.
哦,这也很新。
Oh, it's it's also just it's new.
很难弄清楚。
It's hard to figure out.
这些是非常抽象的概念,思想被转化为代码,而比特币之于计算机,几乎就像量子力学之于物理学。
These are very abstract concepts, ideas being turned into code, and they are all Bitcoin is almost to computers what I what, like, quantum mechanics is to physics.
这让这个领域的很多人感到困惑。
It throws a lot of people in the field off.
而且它也像量子物理,因为有很多善意的、嬉皮士风格的、新时代的人会误用它,完全用错。
Well, it's also like quantum physics because you have a lot of well intentioned, like, hippies and new agey people who will misappropriate and use it completely incorrectly.
没错。
Absolutely.
所以并不是说有很多新时代的嬉皮士在进入加密货币领域。
So not to say there are lot of new agey hippie people getting into cryptocurrency.
可能有,但我想你也同意这一点。
There might be, but I think you also have that Yeah.
理解是分层次的。
There's it's just layers of understanding.
比如,我不知道如何为默克尔树编写代码。
Like, I don't know how to write code for a Merkle tree.
我不知道如何拆解一个比特币区块并分析它。
I don't know how to take apart a Bitcoin block and analyze it.
所以在某种程度上,我仍然是一个试图弄清楚这一切的新时代嬉皮士。
So in some level, I'm still, you know, a new AG hippie trying to figure it out.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但我认为值得去了解,区块链计算机到底是什么,它是如何使比特币成为可能的?
But I think it's worth getting into, like, what is the blockchain computer and how does it enable Bitcoin?
我想,首先,在深入讨论之前,还有一个尚未提到的关于架构的重要概念,那就是复制。
I guess, first of all, before I drop into that, another important concept to the architecture that hasn't been mentioned yet is replication.
所以,全球各地有成千上万台被称为全节点的设备在运行这些副本。
So there's thousands of copies of these things running on what are called full nodes all over the world.
这些是服务器吗?
And these are servers?
是的。
Right.
对。
Right.
所以它们确实是服务器。
So they're they're servers.
它们可以是笔记本电脑,也可以是更大的机器,但全球有成千上万台在运行。
They can be laptops, or larger machines, but, there are thousands of them running all over the world.
因此,任何拥有副本的人都可以让自己的机器进行完整验证,这是运行加密货币最安全的方式。
So anybody who has a copy of this can their machine can do a full validation for itself, and it's kind of the most secure way to run run a cryptocurrency.
是的。
Yeah.
对不起,但简单来说,如果我给蒂姆10美元,然后蒂姆把这10美元给尼克,我们记录这笔交易的方式,过去是用一张纸,或者在欧洲印第安人时代,会用某种特定尺寸的贝壳。
Sorry to you, but basically what's going on is if I give Tim $10 and then Tim gives Nick those $10, the way we keep track of it is through a piece of paper or in the old days with the Europe Indians, it would be a shell of a certain measurement.
但现在,比特币使用的是账本。
But now with Bitcoin, there's a ledger.
我们只是在账本条目中记录:纳瓦尔把这10美元转给了蒂姆。
We basically just keep track in a ledger entry that Naval moved this $10 to Tim.
蒂姆把这10美元转给了尼克。
Tim moved the $10 to Nick.
但问题来了,谁来维护这个账本的完整性?
Now the problem is who maintains the sanctity of that ledger?
你能伪造这个账本吗?
Can you just forge that ledger?
历史上,中央银行会维护账本的完整性,也就是确保你持有的某张带有序列号的美元钞票是真实的,并维持账本的可信度。
So historically, the central bank wouldn't maintain the sanctity of the ledger or the fact that you have a certain dollar bill with a serial number and it maintains the sanctity of the ledger.
但现在,比特币给出了一个你难以想象的惊人解决方案,而它居然真的有效:每个人都有账本的副本。
But now Bitcoin has the craziest answer you can imagine, but it turns out to work, which is everybody has a copy of the ledger.
因此,比特币网络中运行节点的每个人都会保存从比特币诞生至今的所有账本记录。
So everyone in the Bitcoin network who's running a node keeps a copy of the ledgers from the dawn of Bitcoin till now.
这证明了现代计算机所具备的计算能力和内存容量足以让普通人在家完成这一操作。
And it is a testament to the computing power and memory that we have available in in modern computers that people can do this at home.
你可以运行一个完整的比特币节点,保存从比特币诞生至今的每一笔交易记录。
You can run a full Bitcoin node where you keep a copy of every single Bitcoin transaction from the dawn of time till now.
所有这些计算机协同工作,彼此验证:我们的账本是否一致?
And all these computers running together essentially validate with each other, like, are our ledgers the same?
我们是否使用的是同一份账本?
Are we using the same ledger?
如果出现分歧,谁的账本才是正确的?
And whose ledger is correct in case there's a disagreement?
而这一切正是区块链通过加密技术所实现的功能。
And that's where kind of all the blockchain comes in doing all this cryptography.
除了我们之前讨论过的数据和完整性加密之外,另一个被复制的是代码、计算机程序,以及智能合约的第二种定义。
And then another thing that's replicated besides the data and the integrity cryptography we talked about is code, computer programs, and kind of the second definition of smart contracts.
我们稍后会讲到第一种定义。
We'll get into the first definition later.
但第二种定义只是描述这种在所有节点上运行的、被复制的代码。
But the the second definition is simply describing this code that's replicated that's running on all these nodes.
这段代码可以执行类似在比特币上强制执行的操作。
And, that code can do things like enforce on Bitcoin.
它可以完成一些相当简单的功能,增加一些复杂性,比如要求多重签名才能进行交易。
It can do some fairly simple things that add some sophistication or, like, require multiple signatures to do a spend, for example.
你可以想象一下办公室里的签名授权,需要多个人共同签字才能批准某项事务。
So, like, you can think of signature authority in an office where multiple people have to sign off on something.
你可以利用这些被复制的智能合约或代码,让比特币实现这样的功能。
You can set up your Bitcoin to do that using one of these smart contracts, one of these pieces of code replicated.
我可能是在倒退、前进,或者两者都不是。
I I might be taking us back or taking us ahead or neither.
这就像是我们在区块链中漫游。
It's like we were wandering through the Blockchain.
这很复杂。
It's complicated.
是的。
Yeah.
这是一个智能合约。
It's a smart contract.
本质上,你是在把本应依赖人类完成的事情嵌入到技术中,这样就不必依赖一套标准的道德规范或可靠的行为准则。
In essence, are you taking what would rely on human beings and embedding it into the technology so that there's you don't have to rely on standard set of ethics, a reliable set of behavior.
这就是智能合约吗?
Is that a smart contract?
是的。
Yeah.
在某种程度上,合同中有一些领域,某些类型的合同条款通常——但并非总是——与合同的财务方面相关,这些条款逻辑结构清晰,可以编码进计算机,部署到区块链上,从而实现高度可靠的运行。
So to some extent, there there are some areas of of contracts, some kinds of contractual clauses usually, but not always associated with the financial aspects of the contract that you can they're really logically structured, and you can code that into the computer, put it on the blockchain, and then it runs a really high integrity.
这意味着阿尔巴尼亚的一个人可以与津巴布韦的一个人签订智能合约。
And that means that somebody in Albania can do a smart contract with somebody in Zimbabwe.
只要他们能用这种逻辑和代码将交易数学化,就不必依赖阿尔巴尼亚或津巴布韦的当局。
And to the extent that they can formalize their deal mathematically with this logic, code, they don't have to rely on the Albanian authorities or the Zimbabwe authorities.
他们可以直接做生意。
They can just do business directly.
你之前用了一个很好的词来形容这个。
And, you had a great term for this.
这涉及到所谓的‘冷代码’和‘热代码’。
This is getting into the the dry versus wet code.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对吧?
Right?
‘冷代码’指的是基于计算机的,而‘热代码’则可能涉及阿尔巴尼亚律师的法律术语和头脑,以及津巴布韦律师的法律术语和头脑,这可能会带来一大堆麻烦。
So dry being computer based, wet being potentially the legalese and the head of a lawyer in Albania, and the legalese and the head of a lawyer in Zimbabwe, which is gonna be a whole whole just slew of mess potentially.
对。
Right.
所以我喜欢把合同中那些法律术语看作是运行在律师大脑中的程序。
So I like to think all that legalese you see in a contract as as a as a program that runs on the brains of a lawyer.
它通常不会运行在普通人的大脑里。
It doesn't usually run on nor brains of normal people.
我这话题扯得太远了,我们讨论的重点不是这个。
This is gonna I'm trying to take us too too far afield what we're talking about.
你是怎么对合同产生兴趣的?
How did you become so interested in contracts?
这部分源于我所谓的自由意志主义理念,但也源于我上法学院的经历——法学院第一课就告诉我们,财产法和合同法是我们商业社会的两大基本支柱。
So it's part of, I guess, libertarian ideology, but it's also part I went to law school, it's also part of law school one zero one that, property and contract law are the kind of the two fundamental building blocks of our commercial society.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我一直对如何在赛博空间中执行这些合同感到好奇。
So I was interested in in how do you enforce those in cyberspace?
我很少遇到很多人。
I don't meet many people.
我遇到的人通常有JD-MBA或JD-PhD这样的学历。
I meet people who have, say, JD MBA or JD PhD.
我很少遇到拥有JD和计算机科学学位的人。
I don't meet many people who have JD and computer science degree.
而且还是自由主义者。
And and libertarian on top of that.
而且还是自由主义者。
And libertarian on top of that.
不过,我听说湾区确实有一些自由主义者。
Although, I have heard there are some libertarians running around the Bay Area.
是的。
Yeah.
但据我所知,我被告诉过我是个自由主义者。
But JD Apparently, I'm a libertarian, I've been told.
相对于硅谷的普通人来说。
Relatively to the average person Silicon Valley.
嗯,我住在旧金山,那里枪支泛滥,而且
Well, I live in San Francisco known guns, and
他们就像,
they're like,
你是个自由意志主义者。
you're a libertarian.
我心想,就这样吗?
I'm like, is that it?
真的吗?
Really?
就这么简单?
Is that easy?
我拿到我的卡了吗?
I got my my my card?
好的。
Okay.
你是怎么同时完成这两个学位的?
How did you end up doing both of those degrees?
我以前没遇到过这种情况。
I I haven't run into that before.
法律学位很大程度上基于智能合约,目的是对我作为计算机科学家所设想的内容进行现实检验。
The law degree is in large part based on smart contracts and wanting to do a reality check of the stuff I'd thought of as a computer scientist.
我明白了。
I see.
所以计算机科学是先学的。
So the computer science came first.
是的。
Yeah.
然后才读的法学博士
And then the JD was
对。
Right.
然后去研究了湿代码。
Went to study the wet code then.
是的。
Yeah.
既然我现在了解了计算机的工作原理,让我去看看算盘,看看它是什么样子。
Now that I know how a computer works, let me go look at an abacus and see what that's like.
好的。
Okay.
非常酷。
Very cool.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我认为这其中一些涉及智能合约,顺便说一下,正如我前面所说,尼克不仅提出了这个概念,还奠定了其理论基础。
So so I I think some of this is smart contracts, which by the way, as I said earlier, Nick created not just the concept of the theory behind it.
智能合约本质上就是将那些湿代码转化为干代码,然后将其嵌入区块链中。
Smart contracts are essentially taking that wet code, converting it to dry code, and then putting it inside blockchain.
所以一段时间后它就变得不可更改,如果我们达成协议,它就会像琥珀中的苍蝇一样被固定下来。
So it's immutable after a while that it's it becomes a fly trapped in amber if we made an agreement.
顺便说一下,最简单的智能合约就是:我给了你钱,而你收到了钱。
And the simplest smart contract, by the way, is just I gave you money, and you got the money.
这是一个非常简单、已经履行的合约。
That's a very, very simple contract that got fulfilled.
所以,但你可以放入复杂得多的
So but you can put much more complex
那么,合约是承诺和承诺的履行,还是有更简单的理解方式?
So contract is promise and fulfillment of promise, or is there an easier way to think about it?
因为我一想到合约,就会想到所有这些条款,比如终止、仲裁、期限等等。
Because when I think contract, I think of all these clauses, alright, termination, arbitration, term, etcetera.
我会想到所有这些,是因为我看到了
I think of all these because I look at what
你能看到这些合同。
you see the contracts.
因此,你可以把所有智能合约的原始祖宗看作是自动售货机。
Now so you can think of the primordial granddaddy of all smart contracts as the vending machine.
在合同法术语中,自动售货机验证你的行为:你投入了硬币,它通过机械方式确认你确实投入了硬币。
So vending machine, in in contract law terms, it verifies a performance you put in your quarter, and it verifies you put in the quarter through its, mechanical.
我说的是老式的自动售货机。
I'm talking about old fashioned vending machines.
它内部有逻辑,会说:好的。
It has logic in that says, okay.
你投了一枚硬币,饮料只值一角钱,所以我会找给你五分和一角,再给你你选的饮料。
You put in a quarter, the soda cost a dime, so I'm gonna give you a a dime and a nickel back and the soda you selected.
你可以笨拙地把这写成一份合同:如果第一方投入了一枚硬币,第二方就会返还给他……
So you can think of writing this in a contract tediously that, you know, if if the party of the first puts in a quarter, you know, the party of the second will give them back.
但当然,你希望用机器来完成这件事。
But, of course, you wanna do this in a machine.
对吧?
Right?
所以别给律师任何灵感。
So Don't give the lawyers any idea.
它在验证你的履约行为。
It's verifying your performance.
一方面,它在观察某人是否完成了付款或其他合同义务。
On the one hand, somebody it's observing that somebody did their payment or their other performance of a contractual deal.
另一方面,它在自动执行履约行为。
And then on the other hand, it's automating a performance.
它在发放商品。
It's dispensing dispensing the goods.
所以,这些就是智能合约能做的两件基本事情。
So that those are kind of the two basic things smart contracts can do.
它们验证某人的履约行为,并自动执行履约行为。
They they verify somebody's performance, and they automate performance.
第三件事是,如果你有一些本质上是‘湿的’东西,
Now the third thing is if you have and then there's a bunch of stuff that's inherently wet.
大多数你可以编码进智能合约的内容,就是这两种类型:支付和各种财务条件。
Most of the stuff that you can code into smart contracts as those two kinds of things are like payments and various financial conditions.
你可以做很多金融相关的事情,比如期权、抵押贷款、期货等等。
You can do a lot of financial stuff like, options and collateralized loans and so forth, futures.
但对于那些本质上是‘湿的’事情,目前还没有人找到让计算机验证或自动化执行的方法,不过你可以调用仲裁者,或者使用多重签名这样的签名结构,让人类来批准某些步骤。
But, for things that are inherently wet, though nobody's figured out how to have the computer verify or automate the performance yet, you can, you know, invoke an arbitrator, a signature structure like multisig to have humans approve certain steps.
在什么样的情况下,你或别人会想要使用多重签名呢?
In what what will be an example of where you or someone else might want multisigs in that universe?
比如,如果你在做托管交易,由负责抵押品的人验证合同是否已履行,然后他们就可以释放抵押品。
If you're doing something with an escrow, for example, that you have the person or persons, responsible for the collateral verifying that the contract was performed, then they can free up the collateral.
明白了。
Got it.
所以,如果你想买房子,但需要做检查,并想用比特币
So if you wanted to buy a house but had to do inspections and wanted to use Bitcoin
对。
Right.
那是个很好的情况。
That'd be a good situation.
是的。
Yeah.
现在你可以用智能合约做很多事情,也就是链上操作,可以把所有资金、抵押品、托管和数据尽可能地实现计算机化。
And there are things you can do now with smart contracts, which you call on chain, where you can have all the money and the collateral and the escrow and the data as close to computerized as possible.
所以人们现在用智能合约做的事情真的令人震惊。
So the stuff that people are starting to do with smart contracts now is pretty mind blowing.
我们能谈谈你发给我的那篇文章吗?
Can we talk about the article
你发给我的?
you sent me?
我知道它看起来可能不太相关,但对我帮助很大。
And I know it seems like it might not be the right it was very helpful to me.
当然。
Sure.
所以
So
你想深入聊聊吗?
do you wanna dig in?
是的。
Yeah.
所以,比特币、以太坊以及其他这些加密货币正在做的事情,是建立一种新的协议。
So there's this there's this concept of what Bitcoin and Ethereum and these other cryptocurrencies are doing is there there's a new protocols.
那么,什么是协议?
And what is a protocol?
协议有点像上帝。
A protocol is kind of like a god.
我会陷入定义的陷阱,但协议本质上是一种标准,规定了计算机如何交换信息。
Now I'm gonna get trapped in definitions, but a protocol is sort of how computers it's a standard for how computers exchange information.
比如,你和我说英语就是一种协议,还有像HTTP这样的协议。
So for example, you and I speaking the English language is a form of protocol, but then also like HTTP.
是的。
Yeah.
我应该每五秒停顿一下,然后你就有机会说话。
I'm supposed to pause every five seconds and then you're supposed to get a chance to speak.
这是协议的一部分。
That's part of the protocol.
我们互相打招呼作为问候,这也是协议的一部分。
We say hello to each other as a greeting as part of the protocol.
所以我们有像TCP/IP那样的语言数据包,没错。
So we have verbal packets like TCPIP Exactly.
还有另一个协议。
And also another protocol.
是的。
Yeah.
而互联网上的这些协议包括TCP/IP、SMTP。
And then the Internet, these protocols are TCPIP, SMTP.
每次你的电子邮件从一个服务器发送到另一个服务器时,都在使用SMTP,即简单邮件传输协议。
Every time your email gets sent from one server to another, it's using the SMTP, Simple Mail Transfer Protocol.
这些协议支撑着互联网。
And these protocols power the Internet.
在互联网早期,人们假设带宽便宜、服务器便宜、硬件便宜。
And the assumption that was made in the early days of the Internet was that, well, bandwidth is cheap, servers are cheap, hardware is cheap.
所以是免费的。
So it's free.
如果我想给你发送一个数据包,那是免费的。
If I want to send you a packet, it's free.
如果你想要接收这个数据包,也是免费的。
If you want to receive the packet, it's free.
这不需要任何成本。
It doesn't cost anything.
但这些假设正在崩溃。
But those assumptions are breaking down.
我们面临拒绝服务攻击,本质上是你不断向我的计算机请求资源,而我明明拒绝了,但你却一再免费地请求,最终压垮了我。
We have denial of service attacks, which is basically your computer demands resource from my computer that I'm saying no, but you're asking so many times for free that it just overwhelms me.
垃圾邮件是另一个例子。
Spam is another example.
我可以以几乎为零的成本给你发送数以亿计的邮件,但这却耗费了你大量的注意力。
I can send you a zillion emails at hardly any cost, but it costs you a lot of attention.
因此,这些免费的协议正成为错误的假设。
So these free protocols are are becoming poor assumptions.
在用于资金交换的协议中,最糟糕的情况就是存在错误的假设。
The worst place for a poor assumption on a protocol is a protocol for exchanging money.
如果我说,蒂姆,我想给你10美元,那么这笔钱必须在某种程度上是稀缺的。
If I say, Tim, I wanna give you $10, that has to be scarce in some way.
它不能只是一个免费的交易。
It can't just be it can't be a free transaction.
对吧?
Right?
因为涉及的是金钱交易。
Because it's money that's exchanging hands.
所以我们需要一种协议概念,来分配稀缺资源。
So we need a concept of protocols that underlies scarce resources that that allocate scarce resources.
现在的情况是,加密货币和区块链正在创造出所谓的‘胖协议’。
And what's going on is cryptocurrencies and blockchains are creating these what are now being called fat protocols.
我们会在节目笔记中放一篇关于这个的文章。
And we'll put an article in the in the show notes about this.
但胖协议是真正交换稀缺价值的协议。
But fat protocols are protocols that actually exchange scarce value.
它们将数据保留在协议中。
And they keep data in the protocol.
它们维护数据。
They maintain data.
这才是关键所在。
That's the key piece.
对吧?
Right?
或者某种程度上是这样。
Or in a way.
是的。
Yeah.
有两个关键点。
There's two key pieces.
一个是稀缺性,由代币来调节。
One is scarcity, which is regulated by a token.
在比特币协议中,稀缺的部分是比特币本身,而协议则是关于货币的交换,代币就是比特币。
So in the Bitcoin protocol, the scarce piece of the Bitcoin itself, and the protocol is about the exchange of money and the token is Bitcoin.
然后还有你可以写入区块链的数据。
And then there's data that you can put in the blockchain.
比如,我可以拿我写的一篇文章。
Like, I could, for example, take an article that I wrote.
我可以对它进行单向加密哈希,然后将哈希值上链,证明它来自我,之后它就像苍蝇被琥珀封住一样无法被撤销,并且由区块链的价值来保障。
I could hash it, the one way crypto hash, put it in the blockchain, prove that it came from me, and then it gets trapped in the amber again like the fly, and no one can undo it later and as and secured by the value of the blockchain.
所以这些新的协议,这些‘胖协议’非常不同。
So these these new protocols, these fat protocols are very different.
它们将实现一种我们之前从未有过的新型互联网。
They're gonna exchange they're gonna enable a new kind of Internet that we did not have before.
这正是‘胖协议’论点的核心观点。
That's a thesis of kind of the fat protocol argument.
只是为了帮助像我一样,在理解这些内容时感到迷茫的听众。
Just for for people listening who, like me, were trying to find their way their way through the darkness with a lot of this stuff.
当我读到那篇文章时,它发布在联合广场风险投资的网站上,是的。
When I read that piece, which is on the Union Square Ventures website Yeah.
嗨,弗雷德和各位。
Hi, Fred and guys.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
我想不起作者的名字了。
I'm blanking on the name of the author.
写得非常好。
It was very good.
乔尔·蒙特内格罗。
Joel Montenegro.
对,就是他。
There we go.
是的。
Yeah.
之前和之后的例子之一是,你有这些薄协议,比如 HTTP 等等。
And the the the before and after example that was given or one of them was you have these thin protocols, h t t t p, etcetera.
然后在这些协议之上构建的服务变成了信息孤岛,比如 Facebook、Google 之类的。
And then you have these services built on top of them that become silos of information, whether that's Facebook, Google, whatever it might be.
然后它们各自开发了自己的认证方式等等。
And then they develop their own means of authentication and so on.
于是你就有了这些封闭的信息库。
So you have these captive stores of information.
除此之外,还存在安全风险。
You have security risks on top of that.
所以现在你可能通过网页服务器进行银行业务。
So now perhaps you're doing your banking through a web server.
相反,当你拥有那种内置于协议本身、被民主化了的数据时,比如比特币的情况——为了说明问题,所有节点都保存了从始至终的每一笔交易记录。
And conversely, when you then have the and I hate to use this word, but sort of the democratized data that is built into the protocol itself, say in the case of Bitcoin, where now you have all these nodes that have, for the purposes of illustration, every transaction start to finish.
这样更安全,你也不再被束缚,而且符合我们之前提到的自由意志主义/安·兰德式的理念。
It's more secure, you're less captive, and it conforms to the libertarian slash Ayn Rand ideals that we're talking about earlier.
之前举的一个例子我觉得非常有趣,虽然它可能几十年后就不成立了,那就是:协议是必要的,但本身没有价值。
And the illustration that was given that I thought was fascinating and may or may not hold true for for decades, but was that you have protocols that they're necessary but not valuable.
对吧?
Right?
它们是可用的。
They're they're available.
它们对公众来说就像公用事业。
They're like utility to the public.
然后你有了基于其上的数十亿甚至上百亿美元的公司,比如Facebook、Google等。
And then you have these these billion dollar, multibillion dollar companies built on top of it, Facebook, Google, etcetera.
相反,你有比特币,它的市值是x。
Then you have conversely, Bitcoin, which has a market cap of x.
我不知道具体是多少。
I don't know what it is.
今天是250亿美元。
25,000,000,000 today.
好的。
Okay.
而基于它的公司规模很小,最多只有几千万到数亿美元。
And then the companies built on top of it are in Financially small the tens or hundreds of millions at most.
对吧?
Right?
所以这在某种程度上完全颠倒了。
So it's complete flip in terms of Yeah.
价值被胖协议捕获了。
The value is getting captured by the fat protocol.
是的。
Yeah.
我推荐这篇文章。
I do recommend this article.
其实是约翰,抱歉。
It's actually John sorry.
乔尔·蒙内格罗。
Joel Monegrove.
我记错了他的姓氏,但他写了一篇关于这个的精彩文章。
I got his last name wrong, but he wrote a brilliant piece on this.
但核心观点是,由于这些协议将你的身份和数据存储在协议本身中,应用程序无法像以前那样牢牢抓住你,你不会被绑定在这些应用里。
But the thesis is that because these protocols are storing your identity and data on the on the protocol in the protocol itself, the applications don't capture you as much you're not stuck in the applications.
而价值则由协议中的代币所捕获。
And the value is captured by the tokens in the protocol.
这是否意味着,如果从投资者的角度来看,人们会受到激励,不断创造更多种类的加密货币,以试图捕获这些价值?
Does that mean this is this is just putting on the investor hat for a second, that people are going to be incentivized to just create more and more different types of cryptocurrency and then reserve to try to capture that.
这正是正在发生的事情。
That's exactly what's happening.
我写过一篇关于这个的文章,叫《比特币模式的众筹》,那是几年前的事了,我当时认为会出现一种叫AppCoins的东西。
So I I wrote a post on this called the Bitcoin model for crowdfunding, and I and I this is a couple years back, and I thought these things called AppCoins would show up.
对于每个应用程序,与其去寻求风险投资,不如直接为其附加一个代币,通过众筹来融资。
But for every application, rather than going and raising VC money, you just attach a token to it, you crowdfund it.
这正是现在所谓的ICO——首次代币发行——正在发生的情况。
And that's kind of what's happening now with what they call ICOs, initial coin offerings.
已经出现了数百个这样的项目,你知道,这有点像泡沫。
And there's been hundreds and hundreds of these and, you know, it's a little bubbly.
事实上,这非常泡沫化。
In fact, it's very bubbly.
很多项目已经失控了。
A lot of them are getting bit up out of control.
有些协议确实需要自己的代币。
Some of it comes from the fact that a few of these protocols do need their own token.
它们可以使用比特币。
They can use Bitcoin.
但大多数情况下,这其实是开发者有动力附加一个代币并试图捕获价值。
But most of the times, it's really just the developers have an incentive to create a token bolted on and try and capture the value.
但这是一个以前并不存在的、为开源软件和协议融资的有趣模式。
But it's a it's a it's an interesting model for funding open source software and protocols that didn't really exist before.
泡沫是坏事吗?
Are bubbles a bad thing?
这也是我最近在读的一些内容,我真的不知道你对此有什么看法,但在很多人看来,泡沫是坏事。
And this is this is something I've also been reading about that I'm really I don't know if if you have any any thoughts on this, but in many people's minds, bubbles are a bad thing.
但今天我第一次读到一个相反的观点,意思是,泡沫破裂后,那些亏损的投资者会受到激励,去创建服务和应用,以挽回价值的损失,这些应用往往比较轻量,反而有助于维持像x这样的东西的长期可行性,这一点我以前从未考虑过。
But I read a counter argument for the first time today, which was, you know, after a bubble bursts, then you have out of the money investors who are incentivized reek in regaining the value of what is declined by creating services and, applications that are now these sort of thin applications, which then preserves these sort of long term viability of x, whatever that might be, which I hadn't really considered before.
在某种意义上,许多泡沫是不可避免的,因为未来本就是一个真正充满不确定性的领域。
Well, there is a sense in which many bubbles are unavoidable because the future is a genuinely uncertain place.
是的。
Yeah.
尤其是这些属于反馈型行业,你知道,反馈的概念就是,我的预测本身就会改变潜在的结果。
Especially these are these are reflexive industries where, you know, the notion of reflexivity is like my prediction alone changes the potential outcome.
而且,
And,
极端的例子就像一个预测某人死亡的预测市场,如果投注金额足够高,它就会变成一个暗杀市场。
you know, the extreme example is like a prediction market predicting the death of somebody, if there's enough money on that, it turns into an assassination market.
所以我认为,泡沫本质上是任何涉及网络效应的系统中固有的一部分。
So bubbles are inherently, I think, just a part of any system that involves network effects.
如果我认为如此,而金钱是最终的网络效应。
If I think then and money is the ultimate network effect.
我接受美元作为货币,是因为你接受美元作为货币,以此类推。
I I accept US dollars as money because you accept US dollars as money and so on.
如果我们大家都相信,明天郁金香又变得有价值了,我们就会用郁金香进行交易。
If we all believe that, if we all believe tomorrow that tulips are valuable again, we'd be trading in tulips.
没错。
Right.
所以,如果我相信你会接受这种东西作为货币,我就想投入更多资金,你也想投入更多资金,网络效应就会催生泡沫。
So if I believe that you're going to accept this as money, then I wanna put more money in and you wanna put more money in the network effects sort of creates a bubble.
正如尼克所说,未来是充满不确定性的。
And as Nick said, the future is in an uncertain place.
所以有时候我们会犯错,或者不得不退一步。
So sometimes we'll be wrong or we'll have to step back.
会有一部分能量得到释放。
There'll be a little bit of a releasing of energy.
几年前我读到过一篇文章,指出随着股票市场变得越来越有效,它实际上却变得更加波动了。
I read something a couple of years back that said that showed that as the stock market is becoming more efficient, it's actually becoming more volatile.
它并没有变得不那么波动,而是变得更加波动,因为它对信息变化的反应越来越快。
It's not becoming less volatile, it's becoming more volatile, because it's reacting faster and faster to information changes.
这就像
That's like
这个故事。
the story.
我的意思是,你可以看看长期资本管理公司,那里有各种高频交易。
Well, mean, you can look at long term capital management where there are all sorts of high frequency trading.
你看,不仅人类越来越相互关联,还有计算机。
You see, you have not only humans, right, who are in increasingly interconnected, but you also have computers.
是的。
Right.
现在中国发生了一起大规模火车脱轨事故,引发了政治变动,导致中国期货市场波动,进而使美国股市下跌。
Now there's a there's a big train derailment in China that causes a political change that causes the futures market in China to shift that causes The US stock market to go down.
对吧?
Right?
计算机在吸收这些信息并推断其后果方面变得越来越好。
Computers are getting better and better at absorbing that information, extrapolating out the consequences.
因此,市场变得越来越波动。
And and so the markets have become more and more volatile.
所以随着时间推移,我们应该看到泡沫形成得更快,破裂得也更快。
So over time, we should see bubbles form faster, pop more quickly.
我认为它们会呈现出幂律分布:有些会非常大,有些会非常小,但认为未来会非常平稳、线性且可预测的想法,是一种人类的错觉。
And I think they'll fall into a power law distribution like there there'll be ones that'll be really large, there'll be ones that'll be really small and but this idea that the future is going to be very smooth and linear and predictable is a human illusion.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我认为这是一个合理的假设。
I think that's a fair assumption.
尼克,
Nick,
什么是
what are the
关于加密货币或比特币最大的误解或常见错误认知?
biggest misconceptions or common misunderstandings related to cryptocurrency or Bitcoin?
或者,像,聪明人通常会犯什么错?
Or or, like, what do smart people get wrong?
如果有什么事情让你一听就抓狂,比如我再听到一个本该懂行的人还这么说的话。
If if there's anything where you're like, god, this, like, x drives me nuts if I hear one more person who should know better.
我们可以谈谈区块大小问题,虽然我们本不该谈,但我可能会稍微讲一点。
Well, we could get into the whole block size issue because there's this parameter, we shouldn't, but I probably will talk about it a little bit.
这是一个技术性的安全参数。
There there's this there's this it's a technical security parameter.
它被称为区块大小。
It's called the block size.
普通大众是怎么对这个产生兴趣的,我真的不知道。
How the general public glommed onto this, I do not know.
但有一群人对此着迷,认为这是比特币每秒处理更多交易的一种人为障碍。
But there's there's an obsessive group of people who think of this as some kind of artificial barrier to more transactions per second on Bitcoin.
实际上,它的作用是设置一道屏障,防止人们向网络发送大量交易,导致我提到的全节点无法处理。
Really, it's it's job is it's it's a fence preventing, people from overhauling, flooding the network with with lots of transactions that the full nodes I talked about can't handle.
这笔交易历史一直在不断累积。
That that transaction history keeps building and building.
是的。
Yeah.
从最简单的层面来看,如果每台电脑都保存一份交易副本,那么你不可能有无限多的交易,因为电脑会崩溃。
At a very simple level, if if every computer is throwing a copy Mhmm.
如果每笔交易都被每台电脑复制,那么你不可能有无限多的交易,因为电脑会爆炸。
Of every transaction, then you can't have an infinite number of transactions because the computer will explode.
嗯。
Mhmm.
因此,如果你持续过快地增加交易数量,就只会让越来越少的计算机能够运行这段代码,从而削弱了真正掌控安全的人群。
And so what you do is if you if you keep increasing the number of transactions too too quickly, then you only allow a smaller and smaller shrinking set of computers to run the code, which reduces who who's actually in charge of security.
以前你可能有一百万台电脑,然后减少到十万台大型电脑,接着只剩下几千个大型参与者,最终只剩下五个人能存储完整的交易历史,那时你就基本上回到了中央银行的模式。
Before you might have had a million computers, then you're down to a 100,000 big computers, then there's only a few thousand large players, then eventually down to five people who can store the entire history, then you're basically back to central banks.
对。
Right.
所以,这场争论是:我们应该继续允许越来越多的交易吗?
So the debate is, should we keep allowing more and more transactions?
如果每个人都想用比特币买一杯星巴克咖啡呢?
What if people everyone wants to buy a Starbucks using their Bitcoin.
嗯。
Mhmm.
还是我们应该只允许高价值交易,同时保留能够运行代码的人群的多样性?
Or should we only limited to very high value transactions and instead preserve the diversity of people who can who can run the code?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是,这根本就不该成为一场公众辩论。
I mean, this shouldn't even be a public debate.
这就像公众在辩论和投票决定石墨反应堆的设置,而这些设置本应防止核反应堆过热和熔毁。
It's like the public debating and voting on the graphite reactor setting or graphite thing settings that prevent a nuclear reactor from overheating and melting down.
对。
Right.
让他们去争论自行车棚吧。
Let them debate the bike shed.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是,有些事情你应该让工程师来决定,而这就是其中之一。
I mean, there there are certain things you should let the engineers decide, and and this is one of them.
不知为何,有一群人就是想把那些石墨慢化棒拔出来,让反应堆全速运转。
And for some reason, there's just a whole group of people who wanna wanna pull out those graphite moderator rods and have it going full steam.
是的。
Yeah.
比特币的一个问题是,由于很多人只持有少量比特币,每个人都拥有经济动机,都在为自己的利益发声,因此对此情绪非常激动。
One of the problems with the Bitcoin is that because a lot of people hold a little bit of Bitcoin, everyone has a financial incentive and they're all talking their own book and they get really emotional about it.
尼克发过一条很棒的推文,他说,毁掉你对比特币投资的最好方式,就是召集一群网络暴民来重新设计比特币。
Nick had this great tweet that I like said, best way to destroy your investment in Bitcoin is to gather an Internet mob to go and redesign Bitcoin.
对。
Right.
这正是现在正在发生的一点情况。
And that's a little bit of what's happening right now.
你之前说过,在我们开始录音前,你从来没看过这么多科学家彼此如此不文明。
Well, you were saying, you know, before we started recording that a lot of you've you've never seen so many scientists be uncivil towards one another.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得最糟糕的推特是特朗普推特,那里的人们总是因为政治问题而愤怒不已。
I think I think the the worst Twitter is Trump Twitter where everyone's getting outraged over politics all the time.
但现在的第二糟糕的推特是区块链推特,哦,没错。
But the second worst Twitter right now is Blockchain Twitter Oh, yeah.
你会看到来自康奈尔大学、马里兰大学等顶尖学府的博士们,彼此在网上用极其恶劣的言辞攻击,质疑对方的道德品质,称对方为喷子,把他们拖入泥潭,而他们各自背后都有一个小圈子的部落群体,为区块大小之争这类问题争斗不休,正如尼克所说,这其实就像核反应堆的参数设置一样。
Where you'll have PhDs from Cornell and University of Maryland and all kinds of credential places literally calling each other horrific names online, casting aspersions of other people's moral moral character, calling them trolls, dragging them through the mud, and they they each have their little local tribal mob behind them over things like the block size debate, which as Nick says, you know, it's actually in the parameter settings in a nuclear reactor.
这让我想到一些跃入脑海的表达方式。
Well, it's it's I mean, it makes me think of there are a bunch of sort of expressions that jumped to mind.
你说的是他们在为自己背书。
You're saying you're talking their own book.
所以,不懂行的人在问理发师是否需要剪发时,必须非常谨慎。
So the uninformed has to be very careful about asking a barber if they need a haircut.
对吧?
Right?
你需要了解其中的激励机制。
You need to know what the incentives are.
没错。
Exactly.
我肯定很多人都听过这个说法。
And I'm sure people have heard the expression.
这说法并不怎么好听。
It's not very flattering.
但一个人的忠诚取决于他的选择。
But a man is as loyal as his options.
也许,一位科学家或其他原本有教养的人,其行为的文明程度取决于他们的激励机制。
It might be, you know, a scientist or someone who is otherwise civil is as civil as their incentives.
对吧?
Right?
是的。
Yes.
一旦你有足够的得失可言。
Once you have enough to gain or lose.
对。
Yeah.
激励机制决定一切。
Incentives are everything.
就像查理·芒格说的,如果你能专注于激励机制,就别去管别的了。
It's like Charlie Munger says, if you can be working on incentives, don't work on anything else.
而且,我们回头再看看比特币的设计。
And and it's, you know, going back to Bitcoin, the Bitcoin design for a second.
比特币的设计非常精妙,因为它基于底层的博弈论和激励机制。
Bitcoin is brilliantly designed because of the underlying game theory and incentives.
是的。
Yeah.
我们能花一点时间谈谈比特币到底是什么吗?
Could we talk just for a second about what is Bitcoin?
我们之前谈过加密货币。
So we talked about cryptocurrency.
是什么让比特币独特?是什么让比特币与众不同?
What makes bit what made Bitcoin and what makes Bitcoin unique?
如果我们能谈谈这一点就好了。
If if that's if we could maybe talk about that.
你可以从几个层面来理解它。
You can think about it in a couple layers.
最重要和最基础的计算机科学层面之一是,我们证明了要攻击这个系统并进行双重支付等操作,需要掌握51%的计算能力,也就是哈希率。
The the most important and fundamental layers of computer science later layer where we prove that it would take 51% of the computational power, the hash rate to attack this thing and do things like double spend.
基本上就是更改那个账本。
Basically changing that ledger.
对吧?
Right?
所以你是无法更改账本的。
So it's like you can't change the ledger.
精妙之处在于,琥珀的类比非常贴切,因为一旦你我完成了交易,网络就已确认了这笔交易,之后再想修改几乎是不可能的。
The beauty is the flying amber analogy is a great one because once we you and I have done a transaction, the network has agreed on the transaction going back and then doing it is nearly impossible.
但在琥珀尚未完全凝固的过程中,仍然可能有些小动作。
But while that amber is being laid down, it can still be some mischief.
对。
Right.
对比特币的一个重大误解是:如果网络中51%的计算机——这些计算机由被称为矿工的人运行——他们称之为矿工,就像老式挖金矿的比喻一样,他们是在挖比特币。
So one of the big misconceptions of Bitcoin is that well, if 51% of the computers in the network, which are run by people called miners, they call miners, this the old analogy digging for gold, so they're digging for Bitcoin.
但事实上,他们正在铺设那层琥珀。
But really, what they're doing is they're laying down that amber.
如果这51%的人串通一气,他们是不是就能回溯并修改账本?
If 51% of these people collude, then does that mean they can go back and change the ledger?
不能。
No.
他们无法修改已有的账本,但可以对当前正在记录的交易或当前这一层造成干扰。
They can't change the existing ledger, but they can cause mischief with the current transaction or the current layer that's being laid down.
这是一个常见的误解。
It's one of the big misconceptions.
抱歉打断一下。
So sorry to interrupt.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这是它在计算机科学方面的一个局限性。
So that's one of the the computer science limitations of it.
另一个是软件升级。
And and the other one is doing software upgrades.
软件升级甚至更彻底地改变了规则。
Software upgrades kinda change the rules even more so.
是的。
Yeah.
因此,这两件事,尤其是软件升级,变得特别政治化。
And so those two things end up getting especially it's a software upgrades end up getting very politicized.
对。
Yeah.
比特币本质上正在发生什么。
Bitcoin fundamentally what what's going on.
所以尼克首先创造了Bit Gold。
So Nick first created Bit Gold.
对吧?
Right?
你想谈谈Bit Gold的创新之处,或者Bit Gold系统是如何运作的吗?然后我们可以在此基础上叠加讨论比特币?
Do you wanna talk about what the innovation in Bit Gold was or how the Bit Gold system worked and then we can layer on Bitcoin on that?
当然可以。
Sure.
我的意思是,Bit Gold的灵感来源于货币起源的研究,以及我所了解的一个叫做私人银行的时代。
I mean, Bit Gold was inspired by kind of this origins of money research and how do I and also there was an era called private banking
嗯。
Mhmm.
你可以拿着你的银行券,走到银行窗口兑换黄金。
Where you could take your your banknote and go up to bank window and get gold.
而我们今天所使用的纸币,看起来和那些银行券非常相似。
And the bank the paper money we have today looks very much like these banknotes did.
我称之为权威模仿,也就是假装和伪装成
I'm a thing I call authority resemblance or sort of faking and pretending to
是的。
Yeah.
这仍然是非常有价值的东西。
That this is still really valuable stuff.
这种幻觉在大多数情况下是有效的,但它们过去的工作方式截然不同。
And the illusion works apparently for the most part, but they used to work very differently.
过去你可以走到窗口,用纸币兑换真正的黄金。
You used to be able to go up the window and and get actual gold for your paper.
是的。
Yeah.
现在这不过是郁金香罢了。
Now it's just tulips.
不过是绿色的、压平的郁金香罢了。
It's just green green flattened tulips.
对。
Yeah.
它已经死了。
It was dead.
现在就只是纸张本身了。
Now it's just the paper itself.
你只能相信纸张本身和美联储。
You gotta just trust the paper itself and the Federal Reserve.
但无论如何,我受到人们所做之事的启发
But in any case, I was inspired by what people
这是一种法定货币。
Which is a fiat currency.
我其实从未真正定义过‘对’。
I never actually defined Right.
法定货币就是一张没有任何支撑的纸。
Fiat currency is just a paper that's backed by nothing.
以前是贝壳,然后我们用黄金,接着是黄金支撑的纸币,现在只剩下纸张了。
So before it was shells, then we went to gold, then we went to gold backed paper, and now we're down to just paper.
好的。
Okay.
创建这张纸币本身并不难。
Creating that banknote itself is easy enough to do.
这基本上就是PayPal以及我当时工作的公司DigiCash与大卫·乔曼所做的事。
That's basically what PayPal and the company I was working for called DigiCash with David Chowman stuff are doing.
那种由某个中央机构发行的、基于信任的纸币。
That trust based paper note that was issued by some central authority.
但我对这种模式感到不满,因为归根结底,你还是得去那个窗口换回其他更符合我所说的‘最小化信任’的东西。
But I became dissatisfied with that because at the end of the day, wanna go to that window and get something else that's, more what I call trust minimized.
黄金在全世界都具有价值。
So gold is valuable all over the world.
如果你回溯到这些更原始的部落,黄金、贝壳等等,你知道,你可以用它们向下一个部落、再下一个部落支付。
If you go back to these, more primitive tribes, the gold and the shells and the so forth, you know, you could pay them the next tribe and next tribe over.
你的所有邻居也会接受它们。
All your neighbors would accept them as well.
他们不会接受你的欠条,因为你不可能信任那些明天可能跟你开战的人,但他们愿意接受贝壳、铜珠或金珠。
They wouldn't accept your your IOU because, you know, you're not gonna trust people you could go war war with tomorrow, but they would accept the shells or the copper beads or the gold beads.
顺便说一下,最早的金制文物是一颗珠子,最早的铜制文物也是如此。
The first gold artifact, by the way, is a bead and the first copper artifact.
这些显然是金属最早期最重要的用途,而不是刀具、武器或工具之类的。
Those are apparently the most important earliest uses of of of metal, knives or weapons or tools or so forth.
无论如何,我当时在寻找这种去信任化的方式,想在赛博空间中实现这一点。
In any case, so so I was looking for this trust minimizing, like, to do this in cyberspace.
因为我读过相关资料,我知道金子的价值并不是某种神奇的属性,也不是其他东西不具备的内在特性,比如它最初可以用于电路之类的用途。
Since I had read stuff, I know it's not just some magical property of gold that makes it valuable and other things aren't or something, or some intrinsic, you know, it started off you can use it in, know, electrical circuits or so forth.
不是的。
No.
它之所以有价值,是因为我所说的‘不可伪造的昂贵性’,它的稀缺性,以及这种天然的、无需信任的稀缺性。
There's something about, what I call the unforgeable costliness, of it, the scarcity of it, the naturally trust minimized scarcity of it.
你不需要信任任何人来维持它的稀缺性。
You don't have to trust somebody to keep it scarce.
我尝试用工作量证明和亚当·巴克的Hashcash在赛博空间中重现这种特性。
I tried to recreate this in cyberspace using proof of work, Adam Back's Hashcash.
因此,Bit Gold 的设计实现了这一点,然后它使用了一种复制技术,这种技术最初是由 Can you
And so, basically, the Bit Gold design did that, and then it used a replication technique, which had originally been Can you
能解释一下吗?
explain that?
抱歉,我想回溯一下,这个工作量证明。
I apologize to backtrack, but the proof of work.
你所说的‘工作量证明’是什么意思?
What do what do you mean by that?
好的。
Okay.
工作量证明是一种数学难题,是计算机执行的一种计算,意思是:好吧。
So proof of work is a mathematical puzzle, a computation that the computer does that says, okay.
你必须解决这个难题,而根据计算机科学,我们知道解决它需要花费一定的时间。
You have to solve this, and we know from computer science it'll take so long to solve.
但我们也从计算机科学中知道,这是一种可以通过升级硬件来优化的问题,这就是为什么大家都设计专用硬件来处理它。
But we also know from computer science that it's it's a kind of a problem that you can improve the hardware, which is why everybody use design specialized hardware for it.
明白了
Got
好的。
it.
现在,与普通密码学不同的是,其实这种特性甚至谈不上与普通密码学不同。
Now because unlike normal cryptography, it's well, that that's not even unlike normal cryptography in that way.
但如果你拥有硬件,就可以快得多。
But it's something that you can do a lot faster if if you
有硬件的话。
have hardware.
工作量证明基本上就是,这里有一些人正在现场铺设一层琥珀。
Proof of work is basically you have to you you have people here who are basically laying down the layer of amber on the fly.
对吧?
Right?
因此,他们必须投入资源来完成这项工作。
And so they have to basically commit resources to do it.
这样做必须要有成本。
It has to be costly to do that.
系统中需要稀缺性。
You need scarcity in the system.
对吧?
Right?
这种稀缺性是通过你投入的计算资源的成本来创造的。
So that's that scarcity is created by the costliness of the computing power that you throw at it.
所以,你想要投入越多的计算能力到比特币网络,比特币网络就越重视你的投票。
So basically, the more computer power you want to throw at the Bitcoin network, the more seriously the Bitcoin network takes your vote.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
我们必须知道你的计算能力是专用于比特币网络的。
And we have to know your computing power is dedicated to the Bitcoin network.
它不是在浏览网页或做其他事情。
It's not, you know, off surfing the Internet or doing something else.
所以你必须将资源投入到仅为比特币网络工作的任务中,而证明方式是通过数学函数。
So you have to commit it to doing work just for the Bitcoin network, and the proof is through mathematical functions.
明白了。
Got it.
所以你基本上需要解决一些难题。
So you basically have puzzles to solve.
比特币网络的算法会给计算机分配需要解决的难题。
The Bitcoin network, the algorithms give the computers puzzles to solve.
如果计算机成功解出了这些难题,就能证明:是的,我投入了经济价值、时间、热量、电力和计算资源来解决这个问题。
If the computer solve the puzzles, they can prove that, yes, I put economic value, time, heat, power, computation into solving this problem.
因此,我获得了对账本内容的投票权,并有机会获得币作为报酬。
So now I get a vote on what the ledger looks like, and I get a chance to be paid in coin.
这就是矿工所做的事情。
So this is what the miners do.
矿工通过计算机工作来保障网络的安全。
The miners do the work to secure the network using computers.
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