第484期：Spotify首席执行官丹尼尔·埃克——实现卓越表现的习惯、系统与思维模型

我看着那些没有我这么拼命工作的人，反而因此感到沮丧，觉得他们永远不可能成功，也不理解需要付出什么。

I looked at other people that weren't working as hard as I was and kind of was discouraged by that and just thought they could never make it and and they don't understand what it what's needed to be.

阅读这本书，与保罗交谈，开始在我内心引发了一个过程。

And reading the book, talking to Paulo, I think started a process within me.

这并没有在那时就达到顶点，而是在几年后才真正成型。

It's it didn't culminate at that point, but it's it culminated years later.

但它开启了一个关于思考精神性、思考能量层面的过程。

But it started a process about sort of thinking about the spirituality, thinking about the energy side of things.

而我今天所处的状态与过去截然不同，我仍然不断自我完善，但更多地关注于平衡日常生活中的整体能量。

And where I am today, which is vastly different, I still constantly work on myself, but it's I think a lot more about balancing energy in my everyday life and overall.

你知道，你无法真正平衡它，但关键是找到足够多能带给你正面能量的事情。

And, you know, it's you can't really balance it, but it's about finding enough things to do that gives you positive energy.

我们也都必须做一些消耗能量的事情。

And we all have to do things that take energy as well.

但即使在一天之中，也要确保当你有一些会消耗你能量的事情时，通过增加一些能为你生活注入能量的事情来加以平衡，并努力找到那些持续为你带来正能量的事物。

But even even during a day, make sure that if you have a few things that you know will take energy from you, balance it up by adding a few things that will add energy to your life, and try to find those things that constantly do that.

这些是我觉得来自这本书的一些不太直观的收获。

Those are things which are kind of unintuitive takeaways from the book, I would say.

但对我而言，这本书更多代表了一种内在过程的开始，而不是某个具体的细节。

But the book for me represents more of a kind of inner process that it started rather than the very specific part.

我们每个人都在路上。

And we're we're all on a journey.

我认为这是这本书最重要的启示：去发现自己的旅程，并以更广阔的视角去思考——不仅仅局限于财务目标或职业目标，也不只是下周或下个月，而是从能量、从生活的角度去看待，这对我来说是一个巨大的催化剂。

I think that's the kind of big takeaway from the book and finding out what that journey is and and thinking about it bigger than just what our financial goals are or what our career goals are or the the next week or next month, and think about it in a broader perspective with energy, with life, for me, has been sort of a a big catalyst.

只是

Just

感谢我们的赞助商之一，我们马上回来继续节目。

a quick thanks to one of our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show.

本集由Wealthfront赞助播出。

This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront.

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我们再来聊聊那些能带来正能量的事情。

Let's talk more about things that give positive energy.

我想，这部分也包括重建或完善我们赖以生存的机器——也就是我们的身体。

And I suppose part of that would be rebuilding or refining the machine in which we all live, right, the physical body.

你提到你以前的体重比现在多了大约四十磅。

And you mentioned that you used to weigh something like forty pounds more than you do today.

很多人在减重方面都很困难。

A lot of people struggle to lose weight.

最终对你有效的是什么？或者是什么让你成功开始减重的？

What finally ended up working for you, or what made the difference in terms of getting you at least started in successfully losing weight?

说真的，这既容易又困难，因为过去我一直在尝试各种方法，和很多人一样，我曾经在一段时间内取得了成功。

It honestly it was easy and it was hard in that it inherently I I was trying to do things in the past, and and actually, like many people, I was successful for a period of time.

但后来我又回到了旧习惯。

And then I I kind of went back to my old ways.

然后我又开始吃得不好、睡眠不足、压力更大等等。

And then I started eating poorly again, not sleeping well enough, stressing more, etcetera.

很快，体重就又增加了。

And then quickly, weight gain followed.

真正让我醒悟并发生改变的是，我意识到自己必须真正改变生活和习惯。

And where it kind of clicked and changed is I realized that I needed to actually change my life and change my habits.

而实现这一点的唯一方法，就是以我真正享受的方式可持续地去做。

And the only way to do that was to do it sustainably with things that I actually enjoyed doing.

在这个过程中，我了解到，其实我以前根本没怎么关注锻炼。

And what I learned in in in it was that, you know, I didn't think much about training.

我觉得锻炼没什么意思。

I didn't think it was that interesting.

我以为我必须每天在跑步机上待一小时，汗流浃背，痛恨每一刻，这才叫锻炼。

I didn't think that, you know, I thought I needed to be on a treadmill for, an hour a day sweating like a pig and hating every moment of it, and that's training.

我觉得这不适合我。

I didn't think it was for me.

而我后来意识到的，是在开始这个过程时找到那些小小的乐趣。

And and what I realized instead was finding those small enjoyments, like when you start the process.

比如，我并没有每天都去健身房。

Like, I didn't then go to the gym every single day.

我刚开始每周去两天，并养成了习惯。

I started going maybe two days a week and made it a pattern.

我努力让每一次锻炼都以各种方式变得愉快。

And I really made an effort to try to make every single time enjoyable in whatever way.

所以对于那些我真的不喜欢的事情，我尽量避开，但这并不是逃避训练的痛苦，而是更倾向于做我觉得有趣和有意思的事情。

So the things I really didn't enjoy, I I tried to skip, but it didn't lean away from the sort of pain of training, but more kind of trying to do the things that I actually thought was fun and more interesting.

然后，两周变成了三天，三天又变成了四天。

And then the two days turned to three, and then the three turned to four.

当我这样做的时候，我开始看到一些成果，但我一直想着：我能坚持下去吗？

And then as I was doing that, I started seeing some results and and and but I always thought about, can I keep this?

我能一直保持下去吗？

Can I keep this going?

这不会是一次性的改变。

It wasn't going to be a one time kind of shift.

然后，当你开始这样做并享受其中时，你就会意识到：除非我也调整饮食，否则我其实无法实现自己的目标。

And then, you know, what happens is once you start doing that and you start enjoying it, then you start realizing, well, I'm not actually accomplishing my goals unless I also shift my diet.

好的。

Alright.

那么，有哪些事情是我真正享受的呢？

Well, what are the things there that I truly enjoy?

我意识到，我的饮食中有一些做法其实并不必要，甚至我根本不在意，只要去掉就好了。

And I learned there was a number of things in my diet that I was doing that I actually didn't need and didn't even care all that much by removing.

可能是一些非常小的细节，比如我以前会在咖啡里加牛奶。

And it could be all the smallest things, like I used to have milk in my coffee.

但说实话，我觉得加不加牛奶并没有太大区别。

But in all honesty, I don't really think it makes a huge difference to have milk or not.

但如果你每天喝三到四杯咖啡，累积起来就不少了。

But if you have three or four cups a day, it adds up.

我以前坐电梯，不走楼梯，但其实我挺喜欢走楼梯的。

And I used to take the elevator, not the stairs, but I actually kind of enjoyed taking the stairs.

所以这仅仅是因为习惯了。

So it was just a creature of habit.

现在我主要走楼梯。

Now I mostly take the stairs.

所以正是这些微小的细节，最终逐渐累积起了效果。

And so it's these small micro things that then eventually kind of added up.

但更重要的是，最终我意识到，尽管过程如此，它让我变得更加可持续。

But more importantly, in the end, despite the process, what I realized is that it it made myself more sustainable.

它让我拥有了更多的精力。

It made made it so that I had more energy.

而这份精力让我在日常生活中变得更加高效，无论是工作、与朋友的关系，还是作为父亲对待孩子，都产生了深远的影响。

And the energy, I could actually make myself more productive in my everyday life, whether that was work or whether that was relationships to friends, or even as a father to my children, all of it had a profound impact.

谢谢你分享这些。

Thank you for sharing all that.

这凸显了对于许多在减重过程中挣扎的人来说，许多极其重要的启示。

This highlights so many, I think, extremely important takeaways for a lot of folks who struggle with weight loss.

第一，这些小事单独看来似乎微不足道，但当你把它们加在一起，比如咖啡里的牛奶，它们实际上会产生显著的影响。

Number one is that the small things seem small in isolation, but when you add them together, like the milk and the coffee, they can actually have a really significant impact.

我知道有些人仅仅通过从咖啡中去掉牛奶，就在一个月内减掉了五到十磅。

And I know people who have lost five to 10 pounds in a given month just by removing the milk from their coffee.

这听起来很荒谬，但我一再看到这种情况，因为牛奶会强烈刺激胰岛素分泌，影响远超其表面看起来的程度。

It sounds absurd, but I've seen it over and over again because the milk is so insulinogenic, really has quite a disproportionate impact.

此外，坚持的重要性也不容忽视——无论你是想减重、学习编程，还是做其他任何事，如果无法长期坚持到实现预期效果并维持下去，那么最好的计划也毫无意义。

And the importance also of adherence in so much as the best program doesn't matter, whether it's losing weight, learning how to code, anything else if you can't stick with it long enough for it to achieve the desired effect and to sustain it.

所以，这些小小的调整累积起来，确实能产生巨大的影响。

So those little tweaks really cumulatively can have a huge impact.

我想再回到每周一百小时的话题上。

I'd like to come back to the one hundred hours a week.

当你每周工作一百小时的时候，你依然在非常努力地工作。

When you were working one hundred hours a week, you continue to work very hard.

这无疑是一个显著的特征，但对我来说，你最突出的特点似乎是能够专注并优先安排专注的时间。

And that is, I think certainly a defining characteristic, but even more so for me, it seems like one of your defining characteristics is the ability to focus and prioritize focusing.

你之前提到，世界上许多最有创造力的人都会为自己的创造力安排时间。

And you mentioned earlier that a lot of the most creative people in the world schedule their creativity.

我的意思是，这普遍适用，对吧？

I mean, is true across the board, right?

无论是杰瑞·赛infeld，还是我接触过的某些音乐家，最具持续创造力的人往往都有规则、结构和限制。

Whether it's Jerry Seinfeld or certain musicians I've spoken with, the most consistently creative people have rules and structures and constraints.

所以看起来你也做了类似的事情，专门留出时间来专注。

So it seems like you've done something very much the same to box out time to focus.

我只是想举个例子，说明你的日程可能是怎样的，如果你的日程有变化，请纠正我。

I just want to perhaps give an example of what your schedule might look like, and I want you to correct this if it's changed.

这来自观察者效应。

This is from the observer effect.

问题是关于早晨的日程安排，以下是具体情况。

And the question was about the schedule in the morning, and here's how it goes.

我只读几行。

I'll just read a few lines.

引述一下，这听起来会比一些领导者懒散得多。

Quote, so this will sound incredibly lazy compared to some leaders.

我早上大约6:30起床，和孩子及妻子共度一些时光。

I wake up at around 06:30 in the morning and spend some time with my kids and wife.

7:30，我去锻炼。

At 07:30, I go work out.

8:30，即使在冬天，我也会去散步。

At 08:30, I go for a walk even in winter.

我发现这通常是我想得最清晰的时候。

I found this is often where I do my best thinking.

9:30，我会阅读三十分钟到一小时。

At 09:30, I read for thirty minutes to an hour.

有时我会看新闻，但我的办公室、床边、家里的桌上总有一摞不断轮换的书，关于历史、领导力、传记的书。

Sometimes I read the news, but you'll also find an ever rotating stack of books in my office, next to my bed, on tables around the house, books on history, leadership, biographies.

这些书的种类非常多样，就像我对音乐的品味一样。

It's a pretty eclectic mix, much like my taste in music.

最后，我所谓的真正工作日从10:30开始。

Finally, my quote unquote workday really starts at 10:30.

你的日程安排还是和这个差不多吗，还是已经变了？

Does your schedule still look pretty similar to this, or has it changed?

没有。

No.

其实差不多。

It's pretty similar, actually.

今天我11点才开始，这是我第一天的情况。

Today, I started at 11AM, was my first kind of thing.

所以我最后多出了三十分钟，比我预想的要长。

So I ended up getting thirty minutes longer than I anticipated.

但不过呢。

But but yeah.

我的日常生活基本上就是这样。

I mean, this is pretty much my everyday life.

我记得Y Combinator的保罗·格雷厄姆几年前写过一篇论文，关于会议安排或创造者的时间表，那篇论文对我来说是个重要时刻，是的。

And I think Paul Graham of Y Combinator fame said a few years ago, he penned this paper that was kind of an moment for me about a meeting schedule or maker's schedule Yeah.

它们有多么不同。

How different they are.

当时有一种深深触动我的感觉。

And it was like something kind of resonated deeply with me.

我认为很多人觉得他们必须一直待在会议安排中，认为这才是成为有效领导者的必要条件。

And I think a lot of people think they have to be in the meeting schedule all the time, and that that is what's required to be an effective leader.

但实际上，我认为无论你的风格如何，你都可以成为一个有效的领导者，但前提是必须忠于自己，这样才能释放出你自己的独特优势。

Where in reality, I think you can kind of be an effective leader no matter what your style is, But it has to be true to you, so that you can unlock your own sort of superpowers.

总的来说，我认为大多数人没有足够停下来，认真思考自己的优先事项，以及专注于那些对他们来说最值得解决的问题。

And in general, I would say most people don't stop enough and think hard enough about their priorities and focusing on the problems that is the most worthwhile for them to try to solve.

他们更多是按照先到先服务的方式来安排自己的时间。

And they more operate on a kind of first come first served basis when it comes to their time.

所以，这基本上也是我当前日程安排的方式。

So it pretty much is the way my current schedule works too.

我通常每天不会做超过三件，或者最多四件事。

And I often don't take more than three or maybe four things that I do on each and every day.

我努力做到非常坚决地拒绝，虽然这并不总是件让人愉快的事，我得说。

And I try to be very, very sort of tough on saying no, which isn't always the most fun thing to do, I will say.

但这也意味着，相比普通CEO在朝九晚五或朝九晚七的工作中，我反而能完成更多真正重要的事情，并有更多时间去思考其他事情。

But it also means as a factor that I tend to get more stuff done of the things that truly matter in a given day and more time to think about other things as well than perhaps a normal kind of CEO in a normal kind of nine to five or nine to seven gig, whatever they end up doing.

我想举一个例子，这个问题可能不会让人大吃一惊，但确实很多人的日常思维中严重缺乏。

And I wanna give an example of one question that might, I don't wanna say surprise people, but be noticeably lacking from the the mindscape of a lot of people from from day to day.

这个问题就是：你在某次会议中的角色是什么？

And this is this is the question of what your role is at a given meeting.

我的角色是什么？

What is my role?

我读过你对这个问题的深入思考。

And I've read about your sort of contemplation of this of this question.

但当你进入一场会议时，你可能扮演哪些不同角色？为什么事先明确自己的角色很重要？

But when you go into a meeting, what different roles might you have, and why is it important to be clear beforehand on what your role is?

如果我们真正退后一步，花点时间思考一下工作，尤其是针对知识型工作者的工作，因为这显然很不一样。

If we actually take a step back and we think about work for a moment, and we think about work for knowledge workers, because it's clearly different.

事实上，许多在公司工作的知识工作者，他们所做的大部分工作都是在会议中完成的。

The reality is a lot of knowledge workers that work in companies, most of the work that they're doing is done in meetings.

我们中的一些人也会做一些其他实际工作，但大部分时间还是花在了会议上。

Some of us do some actual other work too, but a lot of it ends up being in meetings.

令我惊讶的是，我们花在思考会议本身上的时间如此之少——比如这些会议是否高效、是否有价值，是否实现了最初的目标。

And it's surprising to me that we spend as little time as we do on actually thinking about the meetings we're having, if they're productive, if they're worthwhile, and if they're delivering on what the ambition was.

我只能说，当你调查人们时，一旦问到会议是否有效，大多数人实际上都会认为会议是浪费时间的。

And I can only say that when you survey people, they tend to when you ask if the meeting was effective or not, most people actually say that meetings are wasteful.

然而，我们却看到会议越来越多。

And yet we see more and more and more of it.

因此，我倾向于认为，通过为人们设计更好的会议，可以实现巨大的优化空间。

And so I like to think that a huge point of optimization can be done by designing better meetings for people.

起初，这源于我在Spotify自己的工作流程，不仅仅是思考我们浪费了多少时间。

And, you know, early on, it it started with my own sort of process at Spotify, not just thinking about how much time we were wasting.

但坦白说，在会议中，我经常发现自己面对的是公司里某位出色地准备了某种演示材料的同事。

But frankly, in a meeting, what I found myself many times in was maybe meeting a person in the company that had done a tremendous job putting together a presentation of some kind.

如果我站在那个人的角度来看，这可能是他/她在Spotify整个职业生涯中，唯一一次或两次有机会与我见面。

And if I put myself in that person's shoe, this is a person that may get a meeting with me maybe once, maybe twice during their entire career at Spotify.

对这个人来说，这可能是获得关注、争取未来晋升的机会。

And for that person, it could be the chance to get noticed for a future promotion.

这可能是彻底改变他们职业生涯的机会。

It could be the chance to have something that fundamentally changes their career.

因此，通常发生的情况是，这个人进来后，直接念了一遍前一天晚上有人发给我的PPT。

And so it oftentimes, what ended up happening was the person came in and they ran through a PowerPoint that someone had sent me the night before.

我已经读过那份材料，而他们却逐字逐句地把整份内容念了一遍。

I'd already read it and they in verbatim read the entire thing.

最后，通常只有不到10%的会议时间被用来讨论下一步该做什么。

And then in the end, there would be a short period of time, usually less than 10% of the meeting was spent on that, of us discussing what the next steps would be.

我理解为什么会这样，因为这位演讲者有强烈的动机想要展示自己出色的工作成果，希望显得非常能干，而且他们知道这关系重大，等等。

Again, I understand why this happens because again, the person that's presenting this have all the incentives to kind of show off the good work that they're doing, and want to seem very competent and realize that a lot is on the line, etcetera.

而我却发现，我们常常没有认真思考过，这场会议最初存在的真正目的是什么。

And instead, what I find is that quite often, we haven't been intentful about why the meeting exists to begin with.

在这种情况下，如果我们想给予认可，我相信我们本可以有更好方式来做这件事。

And in this case, if it's recognition we wanna give, I'm sure there could have been a better way we could have done that.

我们应该明确这是一次关于某个领域进展的评审会议，同时也应该清楚地表明，这个人非常出色，我们所有人都应该给予建设性的批评，但最终也要提供正面反馈，因为我们希望确保这个人感受到自己的价值。

And we should have been clear that we were having a review meeting about the progress of a certain area, and it should have been clear too that this person is an amazing individual and that we should all try to give constructive criticism, but then in the end also give feedback, positive feedback as well, because we want to make sure this person feels valued.

但很多时候，这些背景信息都不存在。

But oftentimes, all of that context doesn't exist.

因此，在那次会上，我的角色有时就是说出这类话的人。

And so my role in that meeting could sometimes be just being that person who says that kind of thing.

但我发现，更多时候我不得不提前指导人们如何开好会议并做好准备。

But I real realize more often than not that I had to prep people on how to do meetings, and set it up.

比如，我确实会提前阅读会议材料。

Like I do read the meeting material beforehand.

我更倾向于在开始时只花五分钟重新浏览材料，或者让这个人简要总结并明确说明会议的目的。

I prefer spending only five minutes in the beginning rereading the material or the person reading it summary out of it states the reason for the meeting upfront.

然后我们就可以花更多时间讨论：这些问题是否恰当？

And then we can spend more time talking about were these the right questions?

我们是否应该考虑其他方案？

Should we have considered something else?

那么合适的下一步是什么？

And what are the appropriate next steps?

但在会议中，你可以是审批者、咨询对象或知情者。

But you can be an approver, you can be consulted, you can be informed in a meeting.

我认为很多人总是认为，如果你是CEO，你的角色就总是会议中的审批者。

And I think many people always think that if you're the CEO, your job is always to be the approver in the meeting.

但我发现，如果你有一个出色的团队，这根本不是你应该扮演的角色。

But I find if you have a great team, that's not at all the role you should have.

你有时应该只是作为知会对象，被咨询一下他们的工作进展。

You should be sometimes the person who's only consulted about what they're doing as an FYI.

有时你根本不是决策者，因为有更合适的人在做这个决定。

Sometimes you can be the person who just isn't the decider because there's someone more competent making that decision.

但你可以成为一个倾诉对象，让我们在思考是否足够激进时可以与你讨论。

But you could be a person who is the sounding board where you can bounce ideas off if we're thinking aggressive enough.

如果你大致在这个维度上思考，我们应该投入大量资源吗？

If you're thinking roughly in this dimension, should we invest a lot?

在这个决策上，我们应该投入少量资源吗？

Should we invest a little in in that decision?

所有这些情况都高度依赖于上下文，你在这些会议中的角色可能会因这些变量而大不相同。

And all those things is highly contextual, and your role in those meetings could be very different depending on all of those variables.

明确而坦率地认识到会议可以有不同的形式，这极大地改变了我对会议的看法，我相信Spotify的很多人也是如此。

And being clear and upfront about that meetings can have different forms, I think has profoundly changed how I look at meetings, and I think a a lot of people at Spotify too.

我想提一下你刚才提到的保罗·格雷厄姆文章的网址，给那些感兴趣的人，因为这篇文章也对我产生了很大影响。

And I wanna mention the URL of Paul Graham's essay that you gave note to just a bit earlier for people who are interested because this also had quite an impact on me.

保罗·格雷厄姆写了很多出色的短文，篇幅都很短，不用担心会读到五十页那么长。

Paul Graham has a lot of fantastic essays, and they're short for people who are worried that this is gonna be 50 pages.

大概只需要两页就能读完。

It's probably a two page read.

但你可以访问 paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html，直接搜索“makers schedule”就能找到。

But paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html, and you can just search makers schedule.

这对任何以任何形式进行创作的人而言都具有深远的影响，无论是在公司里，还是作为艺术家这样的创意专业人士。

And, it has has profound implications for anyone who seeks to create in any way, whether it's in a company or as a creative professional like an artist, for instance.

我认为这是一篇极其出色的论文。

I think it's just an outstanding essay.

接下来我想聊聊年度周期。

And I'd like to hop next to an annual cadence.

我读到过，你每年都会与领导团队的每一位成员坐下来，进行一年的总结反思。

So I've read about you sitting down with everyone on your leadership team once per year and doing a mental closing of the year.

哪些方面做得好？哪些方面做得不好？

What went well, what went poorly?

此外，具体来说，你是否希望在未来两年继续做这件事？

And specifically, in addition to that, is this what you want to do for the next two years?

我直接引用一段《快公司》的内容。

And I'll I'll just I'll just quote, this is from Fast Company.

如果他们决定不继续，这并不是个人问题，也不是因为当前表现不佳，从来都不是关于这一点，而是关乎未来的绩效。

And if they decide not to, you know, it's not personal, it's not because of poor performance at this level, it's never about that, it's about future performance.

我觉得这非常有趣，但我希望你能详细展开一些细节。

I find this very interesting, but I'd love for you to flesh out some of the details.

你目前仍然会使用类似这样的方式来做年度心理总结吗？

Do you still do a mental closing of the year using some type of format like this?

是的。

Yeah.

我们会做。

We do.

实际上，我现在正在为我所有的员工撰写绩效评估，不过并不是所有员工，而是我的直接下属，我将在未来一两周内开始和他们讨论这个话题。

And and, I'm actually right about, I'm writing, my reviews, at the moment for all of my employees, and I'm I'm gonna start not all my employees, but all my direct reports, and I'll start talking to them about it in the next week or two.

所以这仍然是我们目前非常关注的事情。

So it's still very much sort of top of mind for what we do.

也许我可以简单说说这个做法的由来。

And maybe I can just kind of say what the genesis is of that.

请说。

Please.

这在一定程度上受到了里德·霍夫曼的‘职责轮换’理念的启发。

This is kind of inspired by Reid Hoffman's tour of duties concept.

我在思考自己在Spotify的职业历程。

I was thinking about my own journey at Spotify.

很多时候，简单来说就是我在这份工作上干了十四年。

And, you know, a lot of times, the easy way to say it is I've had the same job for fourteen years.

但显然，我现在的工作和刚入职时已经完全不同了。

But obviously, my job looks nothing like it from the beginning.

因为在初创公司和运营一家具有全球影响力的上市公司之间，差异是非常大的，等等。

Because, you know, in a startup, it's very different than running a public company with a global presence, etcetera, etcetera.

所以当我总结这段经历时，我意识到，我每天依然对这份工作充满热情，而不仅仅是对公司，原因在于我在Spotify可能已经经历了第八份不同的工作。

And so when I summarize that and I think about it, and part of the reason why I'm still excited about the job I'm doing every day and not just the company, is because I'm probably on my eighth job at Spotify.

我逐渐意识到，人们在公司任职时间相对较短的原因之一——尤其是在硅谷和许多科技公司——是因为在初创环境中，这种职业旅程并不总是与头衔的提升相匹配。

And what I came to realize is that part of the reason why the tenure of people at companies end up being relatively short, certainly in Silicon Valley and a lot of tech companies, is that this job journey, when you deal with startups, is it doesn't always conform to better titles.

有时候，你的头衔没变，但实际的工作内容却发生了巨大变化。

Sometimes you retain the same title, but in reality, your job looks very different.

而且我认为我们在这方面还不够清晰，尤其是在快速增长的创业环境中。

And I don't think we're clear enough, especially in startup environments, which are incredibly fast growing.

如果你考虑一家每年增长100%的公司，再向前推三四年，它根本不可能还是同一家公司。

If you think about a company that's growing a 100% per year, and you fast forward three or four years down the future, it is impossibly the same company.

你的工作也根本不可能和几年前完全一样。

And it it is impossibly so that your job could be exactly the same as it was a few years earlier.

但大多数人并没有意识到这一点。

And most people aren't clear about that.

所以他们只是假设，因为某人以前做过这份工作，他们就会乐意继续做下去。

So they just assume that because the person used to do the job, that they'd be perfectly happy continue to doing that job.

而实际情况显然会变化，无论你主动做出调整，还是仅仅因为公司成长，我都开始明确地指出这一点，通过心理标记的方式提醒自己：作为领导团队，我们应该努力预见未来，预测公司未来会是什么样子。

And circumstances obviously change no matter if you make changes or just by virtue of growth, that I started calling it out explicitly by just kind of mental marking and saying, you know, we should try as a leadership team to see around corners and try to predict what does the future company look like.

当Spotify有1000名员工时，我就对团队说，在下一个阶段，我们会发展到五到一万人，大家都认同了这一点。

You know, when when Spotify was a thousand person company, I said to the team, you know, in the next journey, we'll be five to 10,000 people, and everyone could buy into that.

但接着我们开始思考：如果公司有5000名员工，那时会有什么样的变化？

But then we started aligning on what are things going to have to look like for that then, if if we are a 5,000 person company, what are the sort of things that have to change?

你的角色会有哪些变化呢？

What are some of the things that will change even for your role?

举个例子，如果你领导的是十个人，而不是一千个人，你的工作会截然不同，因为前者你是直接管理者，而后者你是领导者的领导者。

And you realize, as an example, if you're a leader of 10 people versus a thousand people, your job is so different because, you know, you're a leader of individual contributors in the first instance, and in the latter instance, you're a leader of leaders.

你的主要职责几乎都围绕着沟通、清晰度、一致性，以及设计可扩展的与这些人员和流程互动的方式。

And your primary job is almost around communication, clarity, consistency, and designing scalable ways of interacting with all of these people processes.

听起来可能比实际更无聊，但重点是，这两者差异巨大。

It sounds more boring than what it is, but the the point is that it's so different.

我认为你必须清楚这一点，因为我们往往只关注职位和头衔，觉得当然应该是一样的。

And and I think you need to be clear about that because we just think about the role and the title and think, well, sure, it it ought to be the same.

但我觉得，当人们对公司的变化感到不满时，是因为他们没有意识到自己的工作也已经变了。

But I feel like when people are disgruntled about the the company changing, it's because they haven't realized that their job changed as well.

如果工作没变，这个职位和这个人就会拖累整个公司，这显然是不可接受的。

And if it didn't, that role and that person would hold back the entire company, which is obviously unacceptable.

所以当时我和员工们进行了沟通，因为确实有些人非常喜欢创业阶段。

And so I talked to to the employees at that time, because there are some people who love the startup phase.

但他们不喜欢在公司进入成熟阶段时，你必须专注于效率，因为对于成熟公司来说，效率是关键指标。

But they don't like when you're in the mature phase, and you have to focus on efficiency, which is the kind of key metric when you are more of mature company.

事实上，尽管我有点刻板化，听起来好像非此即彼，但现实是，在一家大公司里，如果处理得当，公司里的每一件事都会在这几个阶段之间变化：初创、成长和成熟。

And the reality is, even though I'm kind of stereotyping and make it sound like it's one or the other, the reality is in a larger company, if done right, every single thing in the company varies between these stages, where it's like startup, where it's scale up, and where it's mature.

你在每个公司、每个团队中都会在这些不同阶段之间来回切换，这将高度依赖于具体情境。

And you go back and forth between those different stages in every company and every team, and it's going to be highly sort of contextually relevant.

在这种情况下，你需要的领导方式是截然不同的。

The the type of leadership you need to have for that situation is very, very different.

能够胜任这三种角色的领导者非常少，而我所知道的没有一位领导者能在这三个方面都做到极其出色。

And there are very, very few leaders that can do all three, and no leader that I'm aware of that can do all three of them incredibly well.

你可以胜任其中一两个，但不可能在三个方面都做到顶尖。

You can pass on a few of them, but not be amazing on all three of them.

我想为各位强调几件事。

So a few things that I wanna underscore for folks.

我觉得自己就像这些对话中的Kindle划线工具，但没关系。

I feel like I'm the the Kindle highlighter of these conversations as we go, but that's okay.

我努力做到有用。

I try to be useful.

首先是给那些不认识里德·霍夫曼的人。

The the first is for people who don't recognize Reid Hoffman.

他是领英的联合创始人，被彼得·蒂尔称为首席消防员，在贝宝工作过，并做了许多其他事情。

He is the cofounder of LinkedIn and was the firefighter in chief or nicknamed such by Peter Thiel, went at PayPal, and has done many, many other things.

关于服役期这个概念，人们如果搜索‘里德·霍夫曼’和‘服役期’，也可以在《哈佛商业评论》上找到更多相关内容。

And the tour of duty concept, people can read more about also in Harvard Business Review if they just search Reid Hoffman and Tour of Duty.

你几分钟前提到，作为CEO，你通常并不是每次会议的最终决策者。

You mentioned a few minutes ago how very often your role as CEO is not the decider in chief in every meeting.

对吧？

Right?

如果你把事情做对了，很多决策会与你商议后做出，但你不可能让5000名员工的所有事务都经过你来处理，丹尼尔。

And if if if you've done things well, that there will be many decisions made perhaps in consultation with you, but you can't scale to 5,000 employees with everything running through, Daniel.

你认为自己最重要的职责是什么？

What do you view as your most important jobs?

对一些首席执行官来说，最重要的是招聘顶尖人才。

For some CEOs, it's recruiting top talent.

对另一些人来说，则是长期的产品规划。

For others, it's long term long term product division.

在你看来，如果只能选择少数几项，哪些是绝对关键的职责，是你必须专注完成的？

In your mind, what are the absolute critical functions, if you could only choose a few, that you need to fulfill that you focus on?

实际上，过去几年我最大的一个领悟是，我并不确定显而易见的答案——比如你不可能同时承担5000人的工作，这固然没错。

I actually you know, one of the sort of biggest realization for me the last few years is that I'm not sure the obvious thing would be to say you can't scale and do 5,000 person's jobs, and that's obviously true.

但我确实认为，有自下而上的公司，也有自上而下的公司，两者都可以非常成功。

But I do think that there are bottom up companies and top down companies, and both can be incredibly successful.

你不必远寻，看看埃隆·马斯克就知道了，他深度参与了公司中成千上万的细节。

You don't have to look further than looking at someone like Elon Musk to know that he is intimately involved in a million different details in the company.

至于我们是如何做到这一点、如何实现规模化的，我真的无法理解。

And how we managed to do that and how we managed to scale, it's it's beyond me.

我对此非常钦佩。

I'm very impressed by it.

但我也知道，我做不到这一点，这也不是我的理念。

But I know also know I couldn't do that, and it's not my philosophy.

所以我想首先说的是，你最终采取的领导风格必须与你真实的自我相符。

And so I think I just wanted to start by saying, I think the the leadership style that you ultimately have has to be authentic to who you are.

我认为我们很多人，包括我自己在内，都从领导者身上汲取了大量灵感，常常试图模仿他们的一些具体做法，却没有完全理解背后的所有机制。

And I think a lot of us take so much inspiration from leaders, including myself, by the way, where we often try to maybe copy someone's specific thing that they're doing without understanding all the underlying mechanics perfectly well.

因此，我不想说这就是作为领导者必须做的事情，因为我认为有许多不同的领导风格都可以取得巨大成功。

And so I don't want to sort of say this is what you need to do as a leader because I think that there are many different leadership styles that can be incredibly successful.

但我可以谈谈我在Spotify作为领导者所重视的东西，以及我们所建立的文化。

But I can talk about what is important to me as a leader in Spotify and the culture that we have.

在那里，我并不是一个无所不知的人。

And there, I am not a person that knows everything about everything.

我更偏向于通才，但如今我更愿意以自己是一名合格的沟通者和我们愿景的编辑者而自豪，因为我感觉你必须为组织设定一些边界。

I am a much more of a generalist, but I try to pride myself instead these days about trying to be a decent communicator about and and almost like an editor of our vision, because I I feel like you have to provide constraints to the organization.

否则，就会出现千花齐放的局面，我们只是把各种想法扔到墙上，看哪些能粘住。

Otherwise, you have these thousand flowers bloom, and let's throw things against the wall and see what sticks.

而在这个角色中，最终总是回归到目的：我们为什么要做这些事？

And the editor position in that end is always back to purpose, like, why are we doing things?

这有什么意义？

Why does it matter?

这如何与我们的使命相联系？

How does this ladder up to the mission?

并作为对此的持续约束和保障。

And and being the constant sort of guardrail against that.

然后我发现，当你管理一家大公司时，重要的是我们都容易变得自满。

And then the second part I find is, when you're dealing with a larger company, the important part is we all get complacent.

你知道，这是真的。

You know, this is true.

你知道，我刚刚走了一圈。

You know, I I just walked walked through.

我最近感冒了，不是新冠，就是普通感冒。

I've I've been having a cold, no COVID, but like a cold.

几天前，我刚刚重新开始锻炼。

And I I was just starting to work out again a few days ago.

我注意到，我自己变得懈怠了。

And I noticed with myself that I became complacent.

我没有全力以赴，还试图为自己找借口，解释为什么没有做到。

Like, I didn't really go a 100% in to this, and I was trying to self justify why I wasn't and all of those things.

我意识到，糟糕了。

And I realized, oh, no.

不行。

No.

不行，丹尼尔。

No, Daniel.

你是在走捷径。

You're taking the easy way out.

相反，我最后多坚持了三十分钟，可能得到了半年来最棒的一次训练体验。

And instead, it ended up being that I kind of stuck out thirty minutes longer and had probably one of the most amazing training sets I've had in probably six months.

重点在于，如今我经常需要扮演的角色就是：首先要为整个组织设定标准，根据我们引进的人才和想法来调整这个标准，因为安于现状实在太容易了。

And the point being is, like, that's the role these days that I often have to play is I I have to one be the one who sets the bar for the organization, try to adapt the bar for the talent that we bring in, the bar for the ideas because complacency is so easy to get to.

我不确定具体原因，但我就是觉得我们所有人天生都倾向于走捷径。

And I don't know exactly why it is, but I I just feel like we're all built that way that we want to take the easy way out.

因此，这部分工作就是要坚持做正确的事，即使那不是捷径，并持续推动组织这样做，不断提升标准。

And so part of this is to do the right thing even if it's not the easy way out and consistently just kind of pushing the organization to do that and raise the bar.

我在组织的许多方面都扮演着这个角色，几乎就像一个个人教练，这算是我正在承担的第三个角色。

So I play that part too in many parts of the organization while almost being the personal coach, I would say, which is third role that I'm playing.

因为我看待自己角色的方式，是帮助他人实现他们职业生涯中最出色的工作。

Because I kind of look at my role is to enable other people to do the best work of their careers.

在这个过程中，我学到的是，我们每个人都是独特个体，激励我的东西可能和激励你的东西完全不同。

And what I've learned in that process is that we're all highly unique individuals, and what motivates me may be entirely different than what motivates you.

因此，花大量时间去了解你有哪些心理障碍、生活中存在哪些压力，从而帮助你突破这些限制，是我一直在做的事。

And so to try to find out what psychological barriers you have, what tensions in your life you may have in order to try to unlock that is something that I spend a good amount of time on.

我们之前已经提到过一些相关内容，那就是我通常会先尝试了解你是如何安排时间优先级的。

And we've touched upon some of these things already, which is I kind of almost start with trying to find out how you prioritize your time.

因为我发现大多数人并没有很好地安排自己的时间。

Because I find most people don't prioritize their time particularly well.

而在梳理这一点时，一旦你开始安排优先级，就会思考什么对你来说是重要的。

And in unlocking that, you then have to When you start prioritizing it, you start thinking about what is important to you to prioritize.

但这不仅仅关乎工作，顺便说一句。

And this isn't just work, by the way.

在很多情况下，我也会在人们的私人生活中扮演这个角色，比如他们想多陪陪孩子，或者想发展一个爱好，或者想做某些事，却感到左右为难，因为他们在工作责任和私人责任之间挣扎。

This is in many cases, I play the role for people in their private lives too, if they want to have more time for their kids, or they want to pursue a hobby, or they want to do x and y, and they feel like they're they're torn because they're right in between of, you know, work obligations and private obligations and those types of things.

我知道，说到这种程度的细节听起来可能有点疯狂，但对我来说，如果我能为一些领导者做到这一点——他们很多人手下有上千人——让他们因此感到更有动力，他们就会激励成百上千人做得更好，也许还会将这份影响传递下去，从而在组织中解锁越来越多的潜力。

And I know I know it sounds like pretty crazy to talk about those that level of detail, but for me, if I can do that for some of my leaders that in many cases have thousand plus people under them, and they feel more inspired by that, they're going to inspire hundreds, if not thousands of people to do better, and perhaps they'll pay it forward too, and we can start unlocking more and more of that in the organization.

这就是我对像Spotify这样的公司中卓越领导力的理解。

That's kind of my view of what great leadership looks like in a company like Spotify.

但我对其他领导者如何在他们的文化中实现这一点非常着迷。

But I am so fascinated by other leaders, and how they make it work in their cultures, you know.

我努力成为其他公司的优秀学习者，尤其是其他公司的文化，因为正是这些文化让他们能够以不同于Spotify的方式行事。

And I I try to be a great student of other companies, especially other companies' cultures, and the reason why it enables them to do things differently than perhaps what we at Spotify do.

我们不妨拿一个例子来仔细分析一下，因为我知道你和我都很了解Shopify的首席执行官托比。

Well, let's grab an exhibit that we can put under the microscope just for a second because I know you and I, both know Toby, CEO of of Shopify.

别跟Spotify搞混了，但天哪，对吧。

Not to be confused with Spotify, but, man Right.

即使我已经认识这两家公司很久了，把这两个名字快速连在一起说还是让我觉得有点困难。

To say those two in the same sentence quickly is is still challenging for me even though I I have known both companies for so long.

你觉得你和托比有什么不同？

How, would you say you how are you and Toby different?

或者两家公司的文化有什么不同？

Or how are the cultures different?

你可以从任何角度来回答，但有哪些方面是你马上能想到的你们之间的差异？

You can approach this any way you like, but in in in what ways that come to mind are the two of you different?

因为从表面上看，很多不了解你们俩的人会说，他们都非常注重分析。

Because at surface level, a lot of folks who don't know either of you personally would say, well, they're both deeply analytical.

他们都拥有非常强大的计算机科学背景，而这种相似性可能也就到此为止了。

They have extremely strong computer science backgrounds, and that's kind of where the comparison might end.

你如何描述你和他最相似的地方、最不同的地方，或者从方法论的角度来看？

How would you describe how you're most similar, most different, or just look looking at approach?

托比和Shopify显然也是一个非常鼓舞人心的公司。

Toby and and Shopify is obviously very inspirational company too.

我实际上认为我们比不同之处更多。

I I would actually say we're we're more similar than different.

这种相似性体现在，顺便说一句，我在一些其他公司也发现过类似情况，比如迈克·坎农-布罗克斯和Atlassian。

And the similarity is and and I found that with some companies, by the way, like another one is like Mike Cannon Brookes and Atlassian

是的。

Mhmm.

你知道的，一家澳大利亚公司。

You know, Australian company.

我不确定，但我有一个理论：我们所有人都必须进行大量的第一性原理思考。

I I don't know, but a theory I have is that all of us had to do a lot of first principle thinking.

我所说的第一性原理思考，是指我们不在硅谷，也没有太多从谷歌、Facebook这类文化的潜移默化中学习，因此我们发展出了一种不同于标准硅谷文化的独特文化。

And and what I mean by first principle thinking, by not being in Silicon Valley, and by by not learning as much from osmosis of just the Google and Facebook and those types of cultures, we've kind of developed a different culture compared to the standard Silicon Valley type cultures.

因此，在这方面，我认为是相似的。

And so in that regard, I think it's similar.

我认为，加拿大就像欧洲一样，在整体思维上更注重集体而非个人主义。

And I think, you know, Canada, just like Europe, is more kind of similar in that in the holistic thinking about sort of the collective rather than the individualism.

这其中有很多根深蒂固的因素。

And there's a lot of deep rooted things.

顺便说一下，Toby 一开始就是德国人，这更接近瑞典那边的风格。

And Toby, by the way, is German from the beginning too, which is more akin to the Swedish side.

所以在哲学、成长背景这类方面，有很多相似之处。

So there there's a lot of similarities between sort of philosophy upbringing and those types of things too.

我认为，除了明显的产品和所服务的市场不同之外，我们在人才观以及人才发展方式上确实存在差异。

I think in so the regards that we're different, besides obviously the products and the markets we serve, I do think it comes down to just the way perhaps we think about sort of talent and, you know, the development of talent.

而且，我不太想对Shopify的文化妄加评论，因为我对它的文化了解得不够深入。

And again, I don't wanna sort of I I don't know Shopify's culture intimately enough to kind of pass any remarks.

但我可以说的是，在Spotify，我们其中一个重要的做法就是，不叫‘轮岗’，而是内部称之为‘任务’。

But I can say at Spotify, one of the big things is the thing we just talked about, which is we instead of tour of duties, we call it internally missions.

Spotify的每个人都会有一个为期两年的使命。

And every person at Spotify has a mission for about two years.

特别是我的管理团队，我们毫不避讳地承认，事情不会一成不变，你也不会一辈子做同一个职位。

And in particular, on my leadership team, we don't make any qualms about the fact that things don't change or that you'll have your job for eternity.

你会在一项使命中工作，然后我们会讨论下一项使命应该是什么。

You'll have your job for a mission, and then you and I will discuss what the next mission ought to be.

也许它符合你的技能和你想发展的方向，也许并不符合。

And perhaps it fits with your skills and where you want to go, or maybe it doesn't.

这是一个很大的不同。

And this is a big difference.

所以当我审视我的管理团队，当然也包括更广泛的团队时，我们实际上已经大幅调整了管理团队的构成。

So when I look at my leadership team, and certainly the extended one, we've actually shifted our leadership team to a great extent.

通过观察Toby，我的感觉是，他们保持了比我们更稳定一些的结构。

And my sense by looking at Toby has been that they've kept it a little bit more stable than than what we've done.

顺便说一句，这两种模式都没有绝对的优劣之分。

And by the way, there's no pro or cons with both model.

两种模式都有效。

Both model works.

如果非要说的话，我可能更羡慕那种稳定的一方。

And if anything, I would say I'm probably a little bit more envious of of the stable side.

你知道吗？

You know?

我喜欢足球，我最欣赏的教练是那些培养年轻球员、与他们长期相伴，并帮助他们发挥全部潜力的人。

I I I like soccer and, you know, the coaches that I like the most are the ones that develop young players and stay with them and, like, bring them through their full potential.

但我同时也意识到，如果我是一名教练，我可能会更倾向于那种引入大量超级人才并让他们默契合作的球队模式。

But but I also realized that if I were a coach, I'd be more about someone who brings in the the sports team analogy where you bring in a lot of super talents and get them to work well together.

我心中对自己想成为什么样的人的想象，并不总是与我作为领导者所具备的技能完全吻合。

My my own sort of mental image of who I want to be doesn't always add up to the skills I have at the table as a leader as well.

我怀疑我们之间在那两者的细微差别上会有很多不同。

And I suspect that there will be lots of differences between us just in the nuance between those two things.

从这个回答中可以衍生出太多不同的出发点。

So many different departure points from from that answer.

真是肥沃的土壤。

So fertile ground.

让我们从稍微回溯一点的内容开始吧。

Let's let's start with one that is backtracking just a little bit.

实际上，在此之前，我们提到了或者我提到了传记。

Actually, before we get there, the we we brought up or I brought up biographies.

有没有哪本传记特别让你印象深刻，无论出于什么原因？

Are there any particular biographies that really stand out for you for any reason?

嗯，太多了。

Well, there's so many.

沃尔特·艾萨克森写的《列奥纳多·达·芬奇》特别棒。

Walter Isaacson, Leonardo da Vinci one So good.

太出色了。

Phenomenal.

非常好。

So good.

是的

Yeah.

巴勃罗·毕加索的传记也很棒。

Pablo Picasso's biography, also amazing.

我忘了作者是谁写的。

I forget who the author was who wrote it.

我觉得可能有好几本，但我读过一本，讲的是创造力与约束的关系，真的特别有趣，很多观点都让我深有共鸣。

I think there's maybe a few of them, but I read one that was just super super interesting talking about the creativity constraints thinking, you know, that that was kind of where a lot of the boxes ticked for me.

我非常喜欢传记。

I'm a big fan of biographies.

我非常推崇自我探索，正如你听到的，通过与自己合作，才能更好地实现更大的社区目标或社会目标。

I I'm a big fan of of sort of unlocking yourself, as you can hear, and and working with yourself in order to kind of then take on the larger community goals or larger societal goals that you may have.

但这一切必须从好好管理自己开始。

But it has to start by managing yourself well.

从那以后，你才能管理他人，也能管理其他利益相关者。

And then from there on, you can manage others and you can manage other stakeholders as well.

我确实从传记中学到了很多。

I learn a lot from biographies for sure.

既然你提到了管理，有没有哪本书特别帮助你思考管理的问题？

Are there any since you mentioned management, are there any particular books that have helped you in thinking management?

它们不一定是关于管理的书，但有没有哪一本让你印象深刻？

They don't have to be books about management per se, but, do do any any come to mind?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这取决于你所处的阶段。

I mean, it all depends on where you are

对。

Right.

人生的生命周期中。

In the life cycle.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，比如，作为管理者初期，安迪·格鲁夫的《高产出管理》非常棒。

I mean, like, you know, early on as a manager, there there's high output management by Andy Grove.

这本书太棒了。

It's fantastic.

本·霍洛维茨的《艰难时刻的艰难决策》对刚踏上管理之路、正在学习基础的人也非常有帮助。

Hard Things About Hard Things by Ben Harowitz is also really good for someone whose first time journey and going it through and kinda learning the basics.

此外，还有不少关于目标设定和财务建模的书。

And there's there's a number of others about goal setting and about financial modeling.

这类书多得数不清。

There there's a ton of them.

但如今，我更多是从我们领导层的成长历程中获得启发，而不是那些具体的工具方法。

But these days, the most inspiration I take from our leadership journeys more than the specific tools in the toolbox that you can have.

我发现这恰恰是最具挑战性的一点，因为正如我们之前稍微提到的，你必须让领导力变得个人化。

And I find that is the single most challenging things because as we talked about a little bit earlier, you have to make leadership personal.

前几天我和马修·麦康纳进行了一次非常有趣的对话，我们谈到他所扮演的角色和人物，必须是他自己的一部分。

I was having a fascinating conversation with Matthew McConaughey just the other day, and we talked about how, you know, the roles he'd end characters he takes on, it has to be a part of himself.

因为如果不是这样，就永远不会闪耀出来，也永远不会显得真实。

Because if it's not, it's never gonna shine through, and it's never gonna feel authentic.

所以他必须将自己身上的这一特质带入角色中，才能让角色活起来。

So he has to bring out that element of himself in that character in order to make it come alive.

我认为，真正的领导力也是在这样的时刻才得以彰显。

And I think for me, that is when true leadership shines through as well.

我来分享一个有点尴尬但非常贴切的个人小故事吧。

I'll just kind of maybe share a personal anecdote, kind of embarrassing, but but still Perfect.

为了说明这一点。

To kind of show yeah.

但我想再多讲讲我的个人成长经历。

But but but to share the the the a little bit more about my personal growth story.

早期，像很多人一样，我效仿的是那种以产品为中心的硅谷风格CEO，觉得自己也应该成为那样的人。

So early on, like many others, I modeled myself on on being a product centric CEO, kind of Silicon Valley style, you know, I should really be that.

我当时在思考，什么是最佳实践？

And I was looking at what are the best practices?

马克·扎克伯格是怎么做的？

What does Mark Zuckerberg?

其他那些人又是怎么做的？

What does all these other guys do?

我发现他们做的一件事就是每周都开产品评审会，而且做得非常好。

And it felt like one of the one of the things that they were doing was that they were running the product review meeting every week, and they were doing it really well.

我有一位出色的产品负责人，也有一支优秀的产品团队。

And I had a great head of product, and I had a great product team.

但我还是想这么做，因为我只是觉得，这才是优秀CEO该做的事。

But I wanted to do the same thing because I kind of just picked up that's what a great CEO should do.

而且我也觉得自己和硅谷那些CEO一样优秀，等等。

And I'm also a I'm just as good as, you know, the CEO of Silicon Valley, etcetera.

我记得有一天，就在一次这样的会议后，我被我的产品负责人推到一边，他直接说：‘我坦白跟你讲吧。’

And I remember vividly one day where after one of these meetings, I I get pushed aside by my head of product, and then he basically said, look, I'll just be very honest.

没人喜欢你正在举行的这些会议。

No one enjoys the meetings that you're having.

我当时就想，为什么呢？

And I was like, well, why not?

他说，因为你根本没有为会议增添任何价值。

And it's like, well, because you're not actually adding anything to the meeting.

那是一次非常艰难的对话。

And that was a very rough conversation.

说实话，我最初的反应是非常防御性的。

And my honestly, my initial instinct was very defensive.

我当时想，这些人根本什么都不懂。

I was like, well, these guys, they don't understand anything.

我可能应该换一个新的产品负责人，然后做X和Y。

And like, I probably should hire a new head of product and I should do x and y.

但我最终决定不那么做，而是选择回去好好睡一觉。

But I decided against doing that and I decided to sleep on it.

于是我决定先观察一段时间。

And I decided to test for a while.

我会看看，好吧，如果我不出现，他们表现得怎么样。

I'll see, okay, well, I'll see how well they do if I don't show up.

结果发现，没有我，他们表现得非常好。

And it turns out that they did incredibly well without me.

在这个过程中，我意识到我需要找到一种方式来增添价值。

And what I learned in that process was I needed to figure out a way then to add value.

我意识到，与其决定按钮应该是绿色还是蓝色，甚至是否需要一个按钮，那都不是我创造价值的地方。

And I realized that rather than deciding if the button needed to be green or blue, or even if there needed to be a button at all, that's not where I added value.

我在会议中创造价值的地方，是分享他们可能不了解的背景信息，而不是倾向于推动某种特定决策，甚至根本不是关于我的个人偏好，而是分享背景信息，帮助团队做出更好的决策。

Where I added value in that meeting was by sharing context that they may not be aware of rather than sort of pushing towards a decision of a particular kind, or even it wasn't about my preferences at all, but it was about sharing context so that they can make better decisions as a team.

现在在Spotify，我已经多次遇到类似的情况，其中

And it's now happened many times at Spotify where I've had similar situations where

对不起，丹尼尔，我打断一下。

I'm sorry sorry to interrupt, Daniel.

你能举个例子，说明在这种情况下什么样的背景信息会有帮助吗？

What could you give an example of context that might be helpful in such a such a situation?

更多的背景信息？

Additional context?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

假设你正在参加一个产品评审会议，讨论我们实际上要为用户解决的最大问题是什么。

So let's say you're in a product review, meeting, and you talk about what are the biggest problems we're actually trying to solve for the customer in this end.

很多时候，我们可能会发现，第一次使用时有一半的人找不到真正喜欢的歌曲。

And oftentimes, it could be we actually find that half of the people in the first session don't find a song that they really love.

因此，我当时可以分享的背景信息就是这些数据。

And so the context then that I could share in that, that's the data.

而我可以分享的其他背景信息，可能是我从与其他硅谷首席执行官或相关人士交流中获得的，关于如何更好地解决这个问题的见解。

Then the context I could share would be either if I've had any insights from talking to other Silicon Valley CEOs or other people around what great ways to solve the problem could be.

上下文本身可以说明为什么这个问题从一开始就值得解决。

A context in itself could be why that's a worthwhile problem to solve in the first place.

因为如果我们第一天就流失了一半用户，那就意味着这是一个漏斗，而且是个漏气的漏斗。

Because if we do lose half of them the first day, that means it's kind of a funnel and it's a leaky funnel.

所以这将成为主要问题，即使我们每天只吸引5000名用户，其中2500人留下来，也可能感觉不多。

So that's gonna be the main problem because even if we're only bringing in 5,000 users a day and two and a half thousand of them stay, that may not feel like much.

但如果我们每天吸引10万人，那每天就会流失5万人。

But if we were bringing in a 100,000 a day, we're gonna lose 50,000 people a day.

所以这就像一艘漏水的船，我们需要想办法修补它。

So this is a leaky boat and we need to try to fix it.

而这种上下文在分享时可能具有极大的价值。

And and that context can be incredibly valuable to share.

我当初更多是从控制的角度来思考这个问题的。

And I was approaching this more from a control mindset.

我以为自己需要掌控产品的优先级。

I thought I needed to control the prioritization of the product.

而我意识到，相反，我需要分享更多的背景信息，以帮助他们自己做出更好的优先级判断。

And I realized instead, I needed to share more context to enable them to make better prioritizations themselves.

这已经成为我如今在Spotify的职业旅程以及个人成长的一部分。

And that has been something as part of, you know, my journey now at Spotify and as a a development of myself.

我现在发现自己经常遇到类似的情况：我以为自己在某件事上已经很擅长了，但后来却发现有人对这个话题了解得更多，解决问题的能力也比我强得多。

I found myself now in many situations very similar where I thought I was pretty good at something, and I realized that I run into someone who knows a lot more about the topic and is a lot more skilled than I am at solving that problem.

因此，我不得不找到一种新的方式，在这种情况下创造价值。

And so I've kind of then had to find out a new way to add value in that situation.

这对我来说是一段巨大的个人成长历程，不仅让我能够跟上公司的步伐，也让我意识到：在那些我感觉自己‘无事可做’、需要重新寻找新价值点的时刻，我不必感到不安。

That's been a huge personal growth journey for myself, both to be able to keep up with the company, but then then also realizing, like, and not being insecure about in those moments of time when I'm I kind of effectively put myself out of work to find a new job and trying to find new ways to add value to the company.

回到两年期的任务上，我很想知道，也许你不能透露，但如果你能说，那就太好了。

Returning to the two year missions, I would love to know, maybe you can't disclose it, but if you can, that'd be great.

你自己有没有一个两年期的目标？

Do you have a two year mission yourself?

或者，一个两年期的目标会是什么样子？

And or what might a two year mission look like?

你的使命是用Z在Y之前完成X吗？

Is it your mission is to do x by y using z?

它有固定的格式吗？是否写得非常清楚？

Is is is there a format to it, and is it spelled out really clearly?

很多时候，它更像是一种理想化的感受。

It's more an aspirational feeling oftentimes.

有时它非常具体，或者更准确地说，它更多是一种理想化的感受。

Sometimes it's very tangible, or oftentimes, should say it's more an aspirational feeling.

当我达成目标或感觉自己达到了这个水平时，我想感受到什么？

What do I want to feel once I've accomplished or feel like I'm at this level?

但我可以谈谈我上一个，因为它可能是

But I can talk about my last one because it's probably

完美。

Perfect.

最具体、最容易理解的一个。

The most tangible and easy one.

那就是学会如何成为一名优秀的上市公司首席执行官。

And that was just learn how to become a good public company CEO.

我说的是优秀，而不是卓越，因为卓越可能需要更多时间。

I said good, but not great because great will likely take time.

但我们大约两年前上市了，我知道自己必须做到优秀。

But we went public about two years ago, and I I knew I needed to be good.

那么，一位优秀的上市公司首席执行官应该具备哪些特质？

And so what are ways what does a good public company CEO look like?

我目前还不具备哪些技能，而这些技能是我未来必须发展的？

What are skills that I currently don't have today that I likely have to develop?

有哪些仪式、习惯或流程能帮助我达成目标？

What are the rituals, habits, you know, processes to get me there?

然后倒推回去规划。

And then work myself backwards.

这个过程在我2019年时结束了。

And that was a process that ended for me in 2019.

所以我把目标定在上市前一年半左右开始。

So I kind of set the bar where I would start, call it, a year and a half before going public.

我当时希望不至于在上市当天才开始，因为我需要从真实市场中获得一些切实的反馈。

And and then I was hoping I didn't anticipate to be at day one because I needed some real loop feedback from the real market.

但我至少通过意识到自己还不是一个称职的CEO，最终明确了方向。

But I I kind of finalized it by at least not obviously seeing that I wasn't a decent one.

所以现在我已经转向了我的下一个目标。

And so now I've kind of moved on to my sort of next mission instead.

成为一名三星米其林厨师。

Become a three Michelin star chef.

这就是我的目标。

That's the note.

是的。

Yeah.

那会很有趣。

That that would be fun.

如果我能做到这一点，我妻子一定会非常喜欢。

My wife would certainly love that if I could do that.

我是个糟糕的厨师。

I'm I'm a horrible chef.

改天我们可以一起做点意大利面。

Well, another time, we can make some make some pasta together.

成为一位优秀的上市公司CEO的志向。

The aspiration to become a good public company CEO.

让我们把这个当作一个素材，来探讨你如何将它转化为实际行动。

Let's use that just as as a bit of fodder to explore how you then convert that into actions.

对吧？

Right?

因为我想象你应该是以一种相当系统化的方式去处理的。

Because I I would imagine you you approached it in a pretty systematic fashion.

我正在看一段关于你目标设定的描述，我直接引用一下《快公司》的内容。

I'm I'm looking at a description of your goal setting, and I'll just quote here from Fast Company.

我还会写下我的每日、每周、每月目标，每天晚上我会检查自己的进展，然后安排时间，以括号备注的方式与目标对齐。

I also write out what my daily, weekly, monthly goals are, and every evening I check how I'm doing, and then I allocate my time, then in parenthetical to match the goals.

当你有一个像‘成为一位优秀的上市公司CEO’这样的目标时，但其实你可以把空白处替换成几乎任何目标，你如何让自己保持正轨？

When you have something like become a good public company CEO, but you could kind of fill in the blank with just about anything, how do you keep yourself on track?

你会不会把它分解成微小的任务或习惯，以免像你提到的那样，因缺乏优先级而迷失方向？

Do you break it down into micro tasks or practices just so you don't get lost, as you mentioned, with with lack of prioritizing?

你是怎么处理这个问题的？

How did you approach that?

是的。

Yeah.

我实际上已经开始对这个过程做一些调整，因为我意识到流程本身已经盖过了成果，我从中获得的乐趣变少了。

I've actually started changing a bit about it because I realized the process was taking the overhand from the results, and I wasn't enjoying it as much.

嗯。

Mhmm.

自从那篇《快公司》的文章之后，我已经让这个过程变得简单了一些。

So I've made the process somewhat simpler since that Fast Company article.

所以我更关注时间和习惯，而不是每天或每周都去查看。

So I think more about time and habits than necessarily looking at it daily or weekly.

我仍然会大致回顾一下每天的目标，但不再设定每周目标了。

I still kind of review my goals for the days, but I no longer have a goal for the week.

现在我更多是从季度的角度来看，偶尔也会半年回顾一次。

I then kind of look more at it from a sort of quarterly basis and then semi annually nowadays.

这只是一个小小的调整，目的是不让流程变得过于繁琐。

So it's a little bit of a tweak just to not make it too much overhead.

但我解决这个问题的方式，就是明确自己到底怎么想。

But the way I approach that problem was just kind of being clear about what do I think.

很多时候，我思考问题时，脑海中浮现的是一幅城市的画面。

Oftentimes, I I kind of think about it like my mental image is that of a city when I approach a problem.

那是从四万英尺高空的飞机上俯瞰城市的样子。

And it's city from 40,000 feet above on an airplane looking down.

当你这样看的时候，就看不到地表的细节了。

And when you do that, you don't see the contours.

你只看到一座城市。

You just see a city.

你完全不知道这座城市的各个方面，比如地形如何。

You have no idea what aspects of the city, like what's the topography.

你无法理解哪里密集，哪里不密集。

You don't understand where it's dense, where it's not dense.

它看起来就像一团模糊的东西。

It just looks like a blob.

所以对我来说，重要的是我不知道自己不知道什么。

And so the important part for me is I don't know what I don't know.

因此，我总是先分配足够的时间。

So I always start by allocating enough time.

如果某件事很重要，我就开始为它分配时间。

So if something is important, I start allocating time towards it.

然后我会尽快投入足够的时间，达到我所说的第二层次，也就是从大约20,000英尺的视角，开始看到城市的轮廓。

And then I quickly try to spend enough time where I can get to what I call level two, which is when I'm more like 20,000 feet perspective, where I can start seeing the contours of the city.

我可以大致理清这棵树的主要分支，这么说吧。

Can kind of work out that here's the rough branches of the tree, so to speak.

我看不见树叶。

I can't see the leaves.

我看不见细节。

I can't see the details.

我看不见所有那些东西，但我大概有了几个可以深入探索的区块概念。

I can't see all all of those things, but I kind of have an idea of blocks to start diving into.

所以，如果你看这样的东西，你就得更深入地理解一个区块，就要了解它的组成部分。

And so if you look at something like that, you know, you have to understand more about one block is understanding the constituents.

上市公司首席执行官和风险投资家有什么不同？

In what way is a public market CEO different than than a VC?

事实证明，他们非常不同。

It turns out that they're quite different.

因此，理解他们的动机和驱动力，了解不同类型的存在，我该吸引哪一种，又该避免谈论哪一种？

So understanding the motives, the motivations, understanding what different types of them exist, which one of them do I want to attract, which one of them should I possibly even talk about?

不吸引人，也不谈论杰夫·贝佐斯的名言，你就是你应得的股东。

Not attracting, speaking about the Jeff Bezos quotes, you are the shareholder you deserve.

这让我觉得非常真实：作为一家上市公司，我们是否应该参与预期的设定？

That kind of rings very true to me in the sense that should we as a company be part of the expectation setting as a public company?

例如，在硅谷，不提供未来指引非常流行，因为你并不在乎季度业绩。

It's very fashionable, for instance, in Silicon Valley, to not give guidance going forward because you don't care about the quarterly results.

我觉得这很讽刺，因为它本质上意味着你不想参与市场对你的公司所设定的预期，但市场依然会有预期。

I find it ironic because what it essentially says is that you don't want to be part of the participation of the expectations that the market does on your company, but they'll still have expectations.

所以问题就在于，你是否愿意参与这种预期的设定。

So the question is just if you want to participate in that expectation setting or not.

你其实并没有选择不去设定预期的余地，预期总会存在。

It's not like you you really have a choice that there won't be an expectation.

在看到这些细微差别之后，我意识到参与预期设定对我来说非常重要。

And so after seeing those nuances, I realized that it was actually very important to me to be part of that expectation setting.

因为如果我必须对某事负责，我宁愿对那些我参与过引导的信息负责，而不是对那些他们完全凭空想象出来的东西负责。

Because if I'm gonna be beholden to something, I'd rather be beholden to something which I was a part of informing them about rather than something that they just made up their mind all by themselves.

当你意识到这一点时，就会明白沟通作为一种技能变得至关重要。

And when you realize that, you realize that communication becomes super important as one of the skills.

对于那些时间选择非常多的人，该如何简洁地传达公司的本质呢？

And how do you, for someone who has a lot of optionality of their time, communicate succinctly what the company is?

他们不会把醒着的每一刻都花在思考你的公司上。

They're not gonna spend every waking moments of the company or or their lives thinking about your company.

他们常常还会关注其他许多公司。

They many many times have other companies that they follow as well.

因此，站在他们的角度思考，开始察觉其中的细微差别和障碍，然后思考哪些习惯能培养出你想要的技能。

So putting yourself in that mindset, starting to see the nuances, starting to see the blocks, then start to think about what habits can lead up to the skills that you desire.

甚至提高我刚才提到的城市图像的分辨率——让你看清每一条街道、每一个细节——这对我思考自己的使命至关重要。

And even the increasing the resolution, so to speak, of the the image I just said about the city so that you see all the streets, see all those things, is super important for me as I think about a mission of mine.

甚至坦白说，每当我学习一个我感兴趣的领域时，我都会反复使用同样的过程，也就是这种‘城市’的思维模型，或者埃隆·马斯克称之为‘树’的模型——树干、树枝、树叶。这也是我从他的一次访谈中获得的启发，虽然记不清具体是哪一次了，但应该是几年前的事。

And and even honestly, just learning about a subject that I'm interested in, I kind of use the same process over and over, which is that kind of the city mental model, or Elon Musk talks about it as the tree, the branches, the leaves, which was also kind of an inspirational thing that I took away from I can't remember, but it was one of his interviews, probably a few years ago.

我想举一个沟通的例子和一个被广泛引用的名言，但希望你能简要解释一下它的核心含义。

So I wanna give an example of communication and a quote that has been shared quite widely, but I think that it would be nice to have you just explain in brief the gist of it, what it what it means.

这句话是：我们相信迭代的速度胜过迭代的质量，因此我们不推崇官僚主义。

And the quote is, quote, we believe that speed of iteration beats quality of iteration, which is why we're not big on bureaucracy.

我想重点谈谈这句话的前半部分。

And I wanna focus on the first part of that.

迭代的速度胜过迭代的质量。

Speed of iteration beats quality of iteration.

你能解释一下这句话是什么意思吗？

Could you explain what that means, please?

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，当我评估Spotify未来领导者的表现时，哪怕是刚加入公司的新人，我都会关注他们学习成长的速度。

You know, again, the the I I when when I evaluate success, among a future leader at Spotify or even someone who just joined the company, I look at the rate of their learning growth.

我认为这是判断他们能否在Spotify长期成功最好的指标。

I find that to be the best indicator for whether they will be long term successful in their job at Spotify or not.

简而言之，从宏观角度看，首先，世界一直在不断变化，你必须适应这种变化。

And the gist of it is, I I think macro wise, first and foremost, that the world is changing just constantly, and you have to adapt to that change.