#542: Chris Dixon and Naval Ravikant — The Wonders of Web3, How to Pick the Right Hill to Climb, Finding the Right Amount of Crypto Regulation, Friends with Benefits, and the Untapped Potential of NFTs

由于各种原因，我就不细说了，封闭式模式最终胜出了。

And for a variety of reasons, I won't go into all the details, the closed ways won.

这其中很大一部分原因在于易用性。

And a lot of it had to do with the ease of use.

我认为，Web2时代的开放协议在功能上存在局限。

The way I think about it is Web2, the open protocols were just limited in what they could do.

所以，如果你在2008年想搭建一个网站，想要模拟Twitter的功能，你就得去找一个网页托管服务商，注册一个域名，还要做一大堆其他事情。

So if you want to set up a website in 2008, let's say, and you wanted to have sort of simulate the functionality of Twitter, you'd have to go get like a web hosting provider by a domain name and do a whole bunch of other things.

大家都试图基本上复用域名。

Everyone tried to kind of reuse domain names essentially.

在区块链出现之前的早期互联网时代，域名是你真正能拥有的唯一东西。

Domain names in in the earlier in the pre blockchain world, they're the one thing you can really own on the Internet.

这是你的域名。

It's your domain name.

你掌控着它。

You control it.

因此，Opendoor 方面不断尝试再次使用域名，但这需要花费8美元。

And so the Opendoor side kept trying to kinda use the domain name again and again, but it costs $8.

你得去设置它。

You have to go set it up.

这非常技术化。

It was very technical.

与此同时，你去Twitter，只需三下点击，选择你的名字，就能立即加入，而且你的朋友都在那里。

Meanwhile, you go to Twitter, and it's like three clicks, and you choose your name, and you're in, and your friends are there.

然后智能手机出现了，整个过程加速了。

And then mobile phones came along and the whole thing accelerated.

而如今，我们有五家以上的公司掌控着互联网。

And here we are now with five plus companies that kinda control the Internet.

所以Web3正在兴起。

So Web3 is coming along.

根据我的定义，Web3是一个由用户和建设者共同拥有、并通过代币协调的互联网。

And so Web3 is my definition is it's an Internet owned by users and builders orchestrated with tokens.

所以，代币这个新概念是Web3的核心概念。

So this new concept of a token is the kind of the key concept of Web three.

这个概念从比特币运动中历史地发展而来，尽管我认为它属于基因谱系中的不同分支。

This comes sort of historically from the movement that started with Bitcoin, although I think it's sort of a different branch of the genealogy or something.

很多东西实际上构建在另一种名为以太坊的加密网络上，此外还有其他一些替代方案。

And a lot of the stuff is actually built on a different crypto network called Ethereum, and then there are other kind of alternatives to it.

以太坊最大的创新在于它是完全可编程的。

The big kind of innovation with Ethereum was it's fully programmable.

它是一台计算机。

It's a computer.

这很有趣。

It's funny.

这是我曾在Twitter上说过最具争议的话。

This is the most controversial thing I've said on Twitter.

当我提到区块链是计算机、它们就是计算机时，我引发了巨大反响。

I got this huge when I said blockchains are computer, they are computers.

事实上，如果你去查阅艾伦·图灵关于可计算性的论文，或者冯·诺依曼或其他任何伟大的计算机科学家的著作，都会发现计算机就是你可以编写代码并能存储信息的设备。

And literally, if you go look at Alan Turing's on computability paper, a computer or Von Neumann or any of the great computer scientists, a computer is something you write code and it can store things.

以太坊拥有几乎图灵完备的编程语言，并且能够存储信息。

Ethereum has almost Turing complete programming language and can store information.

它是一个虚拟计算机。

It's a virtual computer.

一种运行在物理计算机网络上的计算机，我认为这正是让人困惑的地方。

A computer that runs on a network of physical computers, which I think what kind of trips people up.

但它确实是一台计算机。

But it's a computer.

它是一台具有全新特性的强大计算机，这些特性是以往类型的计算机所不具备的。

It's a very powerful computer that has new properties that prior kinds of computers didn't have.

在这些系统上，你可以创建一种叫做智能合约的东西，它们是按照特定方式持续运行的代码，你还可以创建一种叫做代币的东西。

And one of the things you can do on these is you can create these things called smart contracts, which are code that will continue to run-in a certain way, and you can also create these things called tokens.

代币可以是同质化的，比如那些令人着迷的加密货币，也可以是非同质化的，也就是NFT。

And tokens can be fungible, like kind of cool cryptocurrencies are, or it can be nonfungible NFTs.

它可能是一种人们现在可能听说过的东西，比如可以用一段媒体内容来代表的物品。

And it can be something like which I think some people have heard about now, which are things that can be represented by a piece of media, for example.

你正在购买一张收藏版的篮球卡，或一件收藏级的艺术品，诸如此类的东西。

You're buying this collectible basketball card or this collectible work of art, things like that.

代币如此重要的原因是，它们现在提供了一种机制，使价值和控制权能够赋予用户和建设者，而不是仅仅归属于中心化的公司。

Why tokens are so important is they now provide a mechanism by which value and control can be given to users and builders as opposed to simply to centralized companies.

所以，你今天就可以构建东西。

So you can build today.

有两件事。

There are two things.

第一，还记得我之前说过，Web2的开放端在功能上还不完善吗？

One is remember before I said the functionality wasn't quite there for for the open side in Web two.

现在，它已经具备了。

It's now there.

你现在可以构建一个看起来和感觉都像Facebook或Twitter的应用，使用开放协议和这种新理念：网络的价值和控制权归属于用户，而不是公司，因为根本不存在公司。

You can now build something that looks and feels like Facebook or Twitter using open protocols and using this new kind of philosophy where the value and control accrues to the users of the network, not to a company because there is no company.

你会看到越来越多类似的产品推出，最初会有一些研发组织帮助创建这些协议，但随着时间推移，它们会逐渐消失，就像并没有一家比特币公司一样。

And you're gonna see more and more things products launched like this where there is initially, there'll be some kind of r and d organization that helps create these protocols, but over time, they go away in the same way that there is no Bitcoin company.

以太坊有一个非营利基金会支持研发，但并没有一家以太坊公司。

And Ethereum has a nonprofit foundation that supports r and d, but there is no Ethereum company.

我相信，未来最重要的互联网产品将通过这种全新的方式被创造出来。

And this is how I believe the most important Internet products will be created in the future is through this kind of new means.

为什么这种方式会成为主流呢？

And why will it be done this way?

一方面，这样做更好，因为如果优步网络上的司机能拥有优步，更多地参与价值创造，以及参与该系统的控制与治理，这显然对社会更有利。

One is it's better because wouldn't it be better if the drivers on the Uber network owned Uber and got to participate more in the value creation and also in the control and governance of that system, I think that's clearly a better thing for society.

我也认为，这将是一款必然成功的产物。

And I also think it's a it's just gonna be a winning product.

如果你观察这些Web3社区，没有任何一家Web3公司或加密货币公司曾花过一美元做市场营销，包括Coinbase。

If you look at people in these Web three communities, no Web three company, no crypto company has ever spent a dollar on marketing, including Coinbase.

我曾在其董事会任职多年。

I was on the board for years.

不需要营销。

No marketing.

为什么？

Why?

因为代币具有自传播属性。

Because tokens are self marketing.

当一个人拥有某物并感到有切身利益时，他就想谈论它。

When somebody owns something and feels skin in the game, they wanna go talk about it.

他们想为它做宣传。

They wanna evangelize it.

我认为Web3不仅对世界更好，而且会超越Web2，因为它会更受欢迎——当人们真正参与其中时，他们会非常兴奋。

I think Web3 is not only better for the world, but it's also gonna beat Web two because it's gonna be more popular because the people get really excited when they actually get to participate.

互联网绝对是本世纪最重要的发明。

The Internet is a 100% the most important invention of the century.

我认为这样说并不夸张。

That's I don't think that's hyperbolic to say that.

我们实际上在讨论的是金钱和权力将如何在互联网上流动。

And we're literally talking about how is money and power gonna flow on the Internet.

这是一个如此重要的问题，但媒体却把它丑化为科技精英、金钱，诸如此类的东西。

This is such an important issue, and yet it's caricatured in the press and things as, tech bros, money, this and that.

它被严重误解了，而它又如此重要，这就是为什么我对它如此激动，因为我觉得如果像我和纳瓦尔这样的人不解释清楚，我认为这是一件非常重要的事，我想这么说。

It's so misunderstood, and it's so important, which is why I get fired up about it because I feel like if people like me and Naval don't explain this, that I think it's a very important thing, I guess, I'll say.

如果你们不介意的话，我想稍微说几句，用一个普通人的视角来复述一下，然后希望你们能指出我说法中的漏洞。

I'll just if it's okay with you guys, share a little bit, speak for a second, and also try to paraphrase as muggle, and then I want you to poke holes in what I say.

首先，我要说我对这个领域还比较新。

So first, I'll say that I'm relatively new to this fear.

但就像你说的，一旦它开始在我心中落地生根，我就感受到了某种东西，这听起来可能有点奇怪，但我确实有一种生理上的兴奋感，让我彻夜难眠。

But like you said, once it started to land or sink in, I felt something and this is gonna sound very odd perhaps, but this like physiological quickening that really kept me up.

我连续大约一周都睡不好，这种情况每五到七年，或者五到十年才会发生一次，因为我开始看到这种范式转变可能带来、甚至已经产生的一些可能性和有益的社会变革，等等等等。

I was not able to sleep well for about a week straight And that only happens to me every like five to seven or five to ten years because I started to see some of the possibilities and some of the beneficial societal changes and on and on and on that not just could or already in a sense a byproduct of this paradigm shift.

所以请你判断一下，这是否抓住了某些核心要点，然后你们任何一位都可以指出其中的问题，但我想先强调几点。

So tell me if this captures some of the essence and then either of you can poke holes in it, but just to highlight a couple of things.

所以人们可能会认为Web1是只读的，基本上是只读且开放的。

So people might think of Web1 as read only, largely read only, and open.

然后我们有了Web2，可读可写。

Then we have Web2, read, write.

但正如我们所见，它变得越来越集中，被许多大型公司掌控。

But as we've seen it, it's become more centralized with a lot of these large companies.

正如你所说，除了可能拥有一个域名，你并不掌控自己的命运。

And you don't own, like you said, aside from maybe a domain name, you are not in control of your own destiny.

你的权利非常有限。

You have very few rights.

如果你在Twitter这样的平台上，你的声誉是无法转移的。

Your reputation is not transferable if you are on a platform like Twitter.

你可能会被平台封禁，我们暂且不谈这一点，但关键是它是集中的。

You can be deplatformed and we put that aside, but it's it's centralized.

你完全受制于少数几家公司，而很多人会因为便利性、易用性等原因选择加入，正如你所说。

You're at the whim of a handful of companies, which a lot of people will sign up for, like you said, because of convenience, ease of use, etcetera.

然后，Web3 似乎引入了许多新概念，包括财产权和去中心化。

Web three then appears to introduce a number of things, including property rights and decentralization.

这当然不是完美的类比，但如果人们想到像 REI 这样的合作社，区别在于，一个真正去中心化的平台并不一定需要传统的管理层。

And this is not gonna be a perfect comparison, but if people think of, say, like, REI and a co op, it would differ in the sense that we're not necessarily gonna have management per se with a truly decentralized platform.

但我亲眼见过一些例子，我想给大家一个具体的案例，来说明一个非常小众却明显受益的群体——那就是艺术家。

But what I have seen firsthand, and I wanna give people a concrete example just to point out a very niche group perhaps that I've seen benefit very clearly, and that has been artists.

我想稍微谈一下这个话题，因为我有一些朋友是摄影师、平面设计师和音乐人，他们在新冠疫情爆发后，因无法巡演或开展其他活动而陷入财务困境，因为在一些音乐流媒体平台上，他们每播放一次只能拿到一分钱的报酬。

And so I wanna talk about this just for a second because I have friends who are photographers, friends who are graphic artists, friends who are musicians who were crippled financially by COVID when they couldn't tour, when they couldn't do things because they're only getting paid 1¢ per stream on some of these music streaming services.

通过创建以 NFT 形式存在的独特数字资产并推出项目，他们的未来彻底改变了。

With the ability to create unique pieces of property in the form of NFTs and launch projects, their futures have entirely changed.

我想向大家强调一点：这并不是因为最初的销售价格。

And I want to highlight something for folks and that is it's not because of the initial sales price.

对于作者和音乐人来说，传统模式包含一些版税机制，但你通常只能一次性获得预付款，之后只能拿到微不足道的后续分成。

The model for authors, the model for musicians has some royalty component, but you kind of get paid upfront, and then you have a pittance of some percentage that you make on the back end.

但借助智能合约，正如你所说，如果我们把以太坊看作一台全球计算机，那么通过智能合约，就不再需要大量中间商瓜分大部分利润，而是可以提前设定好自动执行的规则，比如，如果你是一位艺术家，你的作品被转售、再转售、又再转售时……

But with a smart contract, like you said, if we think of Ethereum as this world computer, with a smart contract, instead of a ton of middlemen who are kind of taking the lion's share of profits, you can set in advance certain things that happen automatically, like if you are an artist and your work is resold and then resold again and resold again.

但如果是在传统的艺术行业里，你只能拿到一次报酬。

Well, if you're operating in a traditional art world, you get paid once.

事情到这就结束了。

That's the end of the story.

但现在不一样了，很多创作者的大部分收入都来自这些二次转售，而且整个流程都是自动完成的。

Instead of that, now people are making the lion's share of many of them of their income from these secondary sales, and it's all done automatically.

他们再也不用靠代理商、经纪人、销售代表或是策展人给他们打钱了。

They don't have to trust some agent or a broker or a rep or a curator to pay them.

他们根本不需要审计账目，因为所有记录都在区块链上。

They don't have to audit accounting because it's all on the blockchain.

所以我刚才举了这个例子，想问问你们两位是否愿意详细谈谈这件事的任何方面，纠正我表述里的问题，或是分享一个你们目前观察到的、让你觉得振奋的其他案例。

So I just wanted to give that example and wonder if either of you would like to elaborate on any aspect of that, correct any aspect of that, or give an example of other things that you're seeing that are exciting to you.

对。

Yeah.

我只想总结一下你们刚才说的内容，因为我觉得你们找对了切入的方向。

I would just only summarize what you guys have said because I think you've approached it the right way.

但本质上，你所说的是数字私钥实现了数字私有财产。

But, basically, what you're saying is that digital private keys enable digital private property.

因此，我们终于在互联网上拥有了私有财产，不再需要像Spotify或唱片公司、唱片厂牌这样的人通过他们的数据库条目和律师来决定谁拥有什么私有财产。

And so we finally have private property in the Internet, and we don't need people like Spotify or even the studios and the labels to determine who owns what private property and hold it with their database entries and their lawyers.

我们可以自己完成这一切。

We can each do it ourselves.

我们每个人都可以拥有的一部分——但克里斯因此在推特上被嘲笑过。

We can finally each and and Chris got made fun of on Twitter for this.

我们每个人都可以拥有一部分，这确实是事实。

We can each own a piece of the but it's absolutely true.

我们可以创造数字稀缺性，这是一件非常强大的事情，因为数字稀缺性可以映射到现实世界的稀缺性，毕竟现实世界并非在所有方面都无限充裕。

We can create digital scarcity, and it is a very powerful thing because then it can map to real world scarcity because the real world is not completely abundant in everything.

现实世界确实存在稀缺的经济资源，因此我们可以拥有数字稀缺性和数字私有财产。

The real world does have scarce economic resources, and so we can have digital scarcity and digital private property.

在Web3的语境下，你们两位都提到了三个关键点，我想为听众总结一下，正是这些点让Web3如此独特、与众不同且具有革命性：在传统模式中，我们习惯于将计算机程序视为由第三方运行的应用，他们控制代码、拥有数据，并独占平台和经济收益。

And in a Web three context, there are three critical things that both of you have touched on, but I just wanna summarize them for the listener that really make Web three so unique, so distinct, and so revolutionary, which is in a normal model, we're used to thinking of a computer program as an application run by a third party where they control the code, they own the data, and they own the platform and the economic benefits.

而我们只能分到残羹冷炙。

And then we get our scraps.

我们发推文。

We put up tweets.

我们上传播客。

We put up podcasts.

说不定还能从声田那儿拿到一点点零碎钱。

Maybe we get a few shekels from Spotify.

我们或许只会在推特上收获几个点赞和几次转发，仅此而已。

Maybe we get a few hearts on Twitter and a few retweets, but it's not a lot.

Spotify的所有者们，要比平台上的创作者、播客主还有音乐人富裕得多。

The owners of Spotify are getting far richer than the creators and the podcasters on Spotify and the musicians on Spotify.

我不是故意针对Spotify，它只是整个行业乱象的一个典型缩影。

Not to pick on Spotify, they're just emblematic of of the whole thing.

技术发展走到现在，我们经历了不同阶段的转变，比如Web1时代，当年那个时代的赢家是谁呢？

And we've had this transition where it's like Web one, okay, who won that?

微软，也许是网景，而谷歌是网络一代的大赢家。

Microsoft, maybe Netscape, and and Google was a big winner of Web one.

那么网络二代，谁赢了？

And then Web two, who won that?

是苹果、谷歌，也许是脸书。

Well, it's Apple and Google and maybe Facebook.

网络三代也会被大公司控制吗？

And is Web three also gonna be controlled by big companies?

不会。

No.

Web3的美妙之处在于，这是第一次所有数据都是开放的。

The beauty of Web3 is for the first time, all the data is actually open.

这些数据实际上存在于区块链或分布式系统中，但得到了保护。

The data is literally living in the blockchain or in distributed systems, but it's secured.

它实际上比这些公司保护我们的数据更安全，因为每个数据都由我们自己的私钥保护。

It's actually secured far better than these corporations can secure our data because it's each secured by our own private key.

现在，我们每个人都在云端拥有一个保险箱，可以通过私钥有选择地授予需要的人访问权限，等他们用完后再关闭访问，从而避免在下一次信用报告泄露或大公司数据泄露事件中被窃取。

So each of us has a safety deposit box now in the cloud that we can give selective access to with our private keys to people who need them when they need them and then close them off again so they're not leaked in the next credit reporting hack or the next big company hack.

那么，底层平台归谁所有？

And then who owns the platform underneath?

正如克里斯所说，平台是由贡献者共同拥有，而不是由大公司拥有。

As Chris said, it's a contributor's own the platform instead of corporations own the platform.

所有支持合作社、支持集体主义的人们都应该拥抱这一点，因为现在我们可以拥有那些由我们集体创造力构建的平台。

And all the people who are pro coop and who are pro collectivism should be embracing this because now we can own the platforms that we are actually building with our collective creative efforts.

最后，开发者们也喜欢这一点，因为代码现在是开放的，而不是封闭的。

And finally, developers love this because the code is now open instead of being closed.

因此，这是一个疯狂的、革命性的概念：我们彻底颠覆了应用程序的模式——从封闭代码、平台归公司所有、用户是数据，转变为开放代码、贡献者拥有平台、用户拥有自己的数据。

So it's this insane concept, a revolutionary concept, where we've flipped applications from being closed code, corporations own the platform, and users are the data to open code, contributors own the platform, and users own their data.

现在，这些系统变得完全可组合了。

And so now these things become completely composable.

我认为，Web3革命之所以会如此非线性、出人意料且迅猛，正是因为开放代码意味着这些应用可以像乐高积木一样相互连接。

And I think one of the reasons why the Web three revolution is going to be so nonlinear and so unexpected and so fast is because with open code means these applications plug into each other like Lego blocks.

你给孩子买一个乐高，它能和你孩子已有的每一个乐高积木连接。

You go buy a Lego for your kids, well, it connects to every Lego piece that your kid already owns.

它还能和邻居家孩子所有的乐高积木连接，他们可以据此拼出任何想要的东西。

It connects to all the other LEGO pieces of the kids down the block, and they can build anything they want out of it.

这就是Web3上代码的工作方式。

And that's how code on Web three works.

这就是Web3上数据的工作方式。

That's how data on Web three works.

这也是Web3上所有权的工作方式——我可以拥有我所参与的每一个平台的一小部分。

And that's how even ownership on Web three works, where I can own a little piece of every platform that I contribute to.

这绝对是一场革命。

And this is absolutely a revolution.

纳瓦尔，你能定义一下Web3中经常出现的一个词——‘可组合性’吗？它是什么意思，人们如何使用它？

Naval, could you define a word which comes up a lot in Web three, composable, and what that means, how people use it?

妙就妙在这一切都是开源的，甚至已经不再是API了。

The beauty is this is all open source, so it's not even APIs anymore.

我不必通过Twitter可能提供的、极其有限的API来访问，而这些API后来还可能被它们像著名案例那样取消掉。

I don't have to access through the very limited APIs that a Twitter might expose and then take away later on as they've famously done.

我可以直接在任何我想连接的地方接入代码。

I can literally connect to the code at any point that I want to.

在开源环境中，每个问题你只需要解决一次。

And then in open source, you only solve each problem once.

所以如果有人已经构建了一个解决某个问题的好方案，我就会直接复用它，并反复使用。

So if somebody has built a good version of how to solve a certain problem, I'm just gonna reuse that and reuse it again.

也许我会对它进行分叉。

Maybe I'll fork it.

也许我会稍微改进一下它。

Maybe I'll improve it a little bit.

也许我会把它移植到一个稍微不同的系统上。

Maybe I'll port it to a slightly different system.

但从根本上说，每个问题只需要解决一次。

But essentially, at the fundamental level, each problem only has to be solved once.

所以‘可组合’意味着它就像乐高积木，或者说是数字乐高，我可以直接复制这些积木，然后在上面继续搭建。

So composable means that it's like Legos or like digital Legos where I can just copy the Lego and then build on top of it.

这对竞争对手的影响就像‘威震天’一样，突然间，Web3中的所有应用都能协同合作，创造出任何需要的应用。

So the effect to a competitor is like a Voltron type thing where all of a sudden, all the apps in Web3 can sort of team up to create any app needed.

举个例子，DeFi领域出现了一项创新，叫做自动做市商，它不再需要依赖交易所和付费的做市商或机构来确保市场的流动性。

Example is there was an innovation in DeFi called Automatic Market Makers, which is instead of having to have an exchange where you have paid market makers and firms on the other side ensuring liquidity in any market.

你知道，在股票市场里，你去买一只股票。

You know, you go in the stock market and you buy a stock.

总会有另一个人在另一边，专门被支付来提供流动性，在你想要买入股票的那一刻卖给你。

There's someone else on the other side who is paid to provide liquidity to sell you the stock at the exact moment that you want to buy the stock.

但在Web3中，我们通过DeFi创造了一种名为自动做市商的创新，可以直接通过代码实现这一点。

But in Web3, we created this innovation with DeFi actually called automated market makers where you can just do it through code.

一旦你用代码实现了这一点，最著名的公司就是Uniswap，当然，这是安德里森·霍罗威茨的投资项目，恭喜你，克里斯。

Now once you've done that in code and and most famous company is Uniswap, which is of course an Andreessen investment, so congratulations, Chris.

但一旦实现，其他人就可以直接复制它。

But once it's done, then anybody else can copy it.

然后它可以被直接插入并集成到任何新应用中。

Then it can just be plugged in, dropped into any new application.

所以如果你看看即将推出的基于Web3的游戏，它们内部将拥有完整的市场经济体系。

So if you look at, for example, games that are going to come out that are Web three based, they're going to have entire market economies in them.

它们会具备托管解决方案。

They will have custody solutions.

它们内部会内置NFT。

They will have NFTs built inside of them.

它们将完全具备可组合性，任何来自其他应用的组件都能无许可地接入其他应用。

They'll be completely composable in that any piece from any other app can plug into any other app permissionlessly.

因此，你正在构建一座大厦。

And so you're building an edifice.

这几乎像是在建造一个由相互连接的应用组成的文明或城市，而不是那些数据不可移植、代码不可移植、用户不可移植的孤立系统。

It's almost like building a civilization or a city of interconnected apps instead of these silos in which the data is not portable, the code isn't portable, users aren't portable.

所以这可能是比你想要的长得多的定义，我相信Chris能给你一个更简洁的解释。

So that's that's probably way longer a definition than you wanted, and Chris can give you a crisper one, I'm sure.

我觉得你讲得太棒了。

I think that was great.

我很喜欢把这种可组合性比作软件领域的复利效应，就像金融领域的复利那样。

I think I like to say that composability is to software as compounding interest is to finance.

对吧？

Right?

它就像有魔力一样，一旦运转起来，就会呈现出指数级的增长曲线。

It's sort of this magical thing where if you get it going, it has a sort of exponential hockey stick.

我想接着纳瓦尔刚才说的补充一点：那些不在科技行业的人，可能会低估开源软件的主导地位。

I think related to what Naval said, think one thing people who aren't in the tech business may underestimate is how dominant open source software is.

开源软件在上世纪90年代还只是个小众新鲜事物。

So open source software went from a curiosity in the nineties.

我之前刚好看过一段有关微软的资料，是1999年那场反垄断案相关的内容。

I was I happen to be watching a thing about Microsoft in, like, 1999 in the antitrust case.

里面甚至都没提到“Linux”这个词。

The word Linux doesn't come up.

全是Java。

It's all Java.

当然，实际发生的情况是Linux胜出了。

Of course, what actually happened is Linux is the thing that won.

世界上99.9%的代码都是运行中的开源软件。

99.9% of the code in the world is open source software that that runs.

所以你连接的每一个数据中心服务器，几乎都是Linux。

So every server you talk to on a data center, that's almost all Linux.

你的安卓手机用的就是Linux。

Your Android phone is Linux.

你iPhone上的大部分软件都是开源的。

Most of the software on your iPhone is open source.

开源是怎么赢的？

How did open source win?

这就是Naval说的可组合性。

It's composability, is what Naval said.

每个问题你只需要解决一次。

You only have to solve each problem once.

一旦你解决了某个问题，就可以去GitHub上复刻这个代码并重复使用它。

Once you solve a problem, just go on GitHub and fork it and reuse the code.

而Web3所做的，就是把这种快速迭代的创新水平，不仅应用在软件上，还延伸应用到了网络服务当中。

What Web3 is doing is it's taking that level of rapid innovation and applying it to web services in addition to the software.

但软件有一件事做不到，那就是它无法自主运行。

The one thing software couldn't do is it couldn't run itself.

它需要依赖一家公司来运营。

It relied on a company to run it.

所以如今很多科技行业的运作模式都是：先采用开源软件，再在它的基础上添加一点专属的私有软件，之后部署、运行这套程序，再向用户收费。

So a lot of the tech industry today is take open source software, add a little bit of extra proprietary software on top, and then instantiate it, run it, and then charge for it.

这就是软件即服务。

It's software as a service.

而且这种模式很不错。

And that's great.

他们提供了价值，理应从中赚钱。

And they and they provide value, and they should make money from that.

但背后推动这一理念的关键是开源软件的可组合性。

But the kinda key thing driving underneath is this composability of open source software.

现在我们将这种理念扩展到这个新领域。

And now we're gonna extend that to this new area.

是的。

Yeah.

可组合性甚至超越了软件，尽管它通常用于软件领域。

Composability even goes beyond software even though that's how it's commonly used.

它甚至延伸到了媒体领域。

It even goes into media.

所以，例如，今天如果我想基于《星球大战》平台构建东西，就必须去找迪士尼谈合作。

So for example, today, if I want to build something on top of the Star Wars platform, I gotta go cut a deal with Disney.

但在开源可组合的NFT世界中，艺术家们本质上是在免费分享这些概念。

But in the open source composable NFT world, artists are basically giving away the concepts.

是的。

Yes.

你总是可以右键保存图片或代码，然后进行修改，但你可以基于它构建新的东西。

You can always right click and save an image or the code and then modify it, but you can build on top of it.

所以人们会开发游戏。

So people will be building games.

他们会基于NFT构建文化作品、新梗、新音乐，而随着这些应用的增多，底层NFT的价值也会随之增长。

They'll be building cultural artifacts, new memes, new music on top of NFTs, and more value accrues to the underlying NFT because now it's becoming more popular.

归根结底，一件艺术作品或媒体内容的价值，直接取决于围绕它的社区、使用者、推广者以及合作者的数量。

And at the end of the day, the value of a piece of art or media is directly proportional to how the community around it and who's using it and who's promoting it and who's working with it.

因此，这彻底颠覆了版权和知识产权的概念，转而创造出世界上最强大的‘梗’——这里的‘梗’是广义的，涵盖音乐、电影、书籍，而不仅仅是人们熟悉的网络小梗。

So it kind of blows away this idea of copyright and intellectual property, and instead it creates the most powerful memes in the world, memes in the broad sense of music and movies and books included in memes, not just little internet memes that we are familiar with.

媒体本身也变得可组合，最伟大的艺术家将获得最广泛的传播。

And media itself becomes composable, and the greatest artists are going to have the greatest distribution.

这也就是为什么我不点名批评我们的朋友，但我觉得乔·罗根等人选择加入Spotify的一个原因在于：一个梗、一个想法的力量，取决于它在多少台计算机上被运行。

It's why not to pick on our friend, but, you know, one reason why I think Joe Rogan and others make mistakes by going to Spotify is that the power of a meme, the power of an idea is determined by how many computers it's running on.

程序的力量在于它背后的计算能力，而一个想法的力量则在于有多少大脑在运行它。

The power of program is how much computation power it has behind the power of an idea is how many brains is it running in.

所以如果你有好的想法，你应该尽可能广泛地传播它们。

So if you have good ideas, you wanna spread them as far and wide as possible.

免费提供内容真是太疯狂了，任何头脑正常、拥有好想法的人都不该收费。

It's wild never charge for a piece of content, and no one in their right mind who has good ideas should.

你不应该限制传播的途径。

You don't wanna restrict the avenues.

你希望人们能够重新组合你的想法。

You want people to recompose your ideas.

Akira the Don 会把我所说的话改编成音乐，还有人聪明地制作出视频和酷炫的动画来演绎这些内容。

Akira the Don takes stuff that I say and remixes into music, and there's smart nonsense out there making videos and cool animations out of it.

Jack Butcher 做视觉化呈现。

Jack Butcher does visualizations.

这些全部都是免费的，或者 Eric Jorgensen 做的年鉴也是。

This is all free, or Eric Jorgensen does the almanac.

我不必做其中任何一件事。

I don't have to do any of it.

这一切都是关于媒体的可组合性。

This is all composability around media.

现在我没有底层的盈利机制，但如果我想的话，我可以为原始内容发行NFT，会有一些收藏家和人愿意为此付费。

Now I don't have an underlying monetization mechanism, but if I wanted to, I could issue NFTs against the original content, and there are collectors and people who will pay for that.

我的内容正变得越来越有名。

And my content is just becoming more and more famous.

这就是可组合性以及超越软件本身的行动的一个例子。

So that's an example of composability and action that extends beyond just software.

可组合性是一个非常、非常强大的概念。

Composability is a very, very powerful concept.

如果你想要的话，我知道很多你的听众都在创作大量内容。

And if you want to for example, I know a lot of your listeners create a lot of content.

他们本身就是内容创作者、创新者和生产者。

They're content creators and innovators and creators themselves.

如果你希望你的内容被尽可能广泛地传播，就不要有所保留。

And if you want your content to get as much out there as possible, don't hold anything back.

如果你有好的想法，就应该尽可能广泛地分享，最好能幸运地看到其他人将你的内容与他们自己的创作结合，创造出新的梗和新点子。

If you have good ideas, you wanna spread them as widely as possible, and you wish you should be so lucky that other people come and compose them with their own content and create new memes and new ideas.

只是

Just

简单感谢一下我们的赞助商，马上回来继续节目。

a quick thanks to one of our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show.

本集由You Can（u c a n）赞助播出。

This episode is brought to you by You Can, u c a n.

你吃的食物以及你的生活方式——包括运动、睡眠和压力——都会对你身体处理葡萄糖（主要能量形式）的方式产生重要影响。

What you eat and how you live, exercise, sleep, stress, all play an important role in how your body handles glucose, its main form of energy.

你可能会想到血糖。

You might think of blood sugar.

那就是葡萄糖。

That is glucose.

当血糖水平保持稳定且避免飙升时，你正在提升代谢健康。

When glucose levels are steady and you avoid spikes, you're improving your metabolic fitness.

掌控代谢健康的一个重要方法是食用有助于调节血糖的食物。

An important way to take control of your metabolic fitness is to eat and fuel with foods that help regulate blood sugar.

为了改善我的代谢健康，我被医生推荐了U品牌。

To help enhance my own metabolic health, I was introduced to U by Doctor.

彼得·阿蒂亚说，世界上没有其他碳水化合物像它这样。

Peter Attia, who said there is no carb in the world like it.

You Can的专利成分SuperStarch具有非凡的能力，能持续释放能量而不引起血糖飙升。

U Can's patented ingredient, SuperStarch, has the remarkable ability to provide a steady release of energy without spiking blood sugar levels.

我使用You Can的能量粉和低卡路里能量棒，以在漫长的一天中保持专注，在锻炼时提升表现，避免疲劳，同时不牺牲代谢健康。

I use UCan's energy powders and low calorie bars to maintain focus throughout long days, for exercise, better performance when training, and to avoid fatigue without making metabolic compromises.

当我需要吃点零食或提提神时，我会选择You Can。

When I need a Scooby snack or when I need a little pick me up, I reach for You Can.

You Can提供多种含SuperStarch的产品，帮助你平衡血糖，包括能量粉、能量棒、格兰诺拉麦片和杏仁酱。

You Can has a variety of different products with SuperStarch to help you balance your blood sugar, from energy powders and bars to granola and almond butter.

他们家的产品系列十分齐全。

There's a whole suite.

可以访问ucan.co/tim看看我最喜欢的几款产品。

Check out my favorites at ucan.co/tim.

网址是ucan.co/tim。

That's ucan.co/tim.

而且你首单还能享受七折优惠。

And save 30% on your first order.

购买链接是ucan.co/tim。

That's ucan.co/tim.

我还想再补充几点，给刚才举的那些例子再添点细节和趣味，也再好好解释下，为什么这些内容总能让我熬夜钻研。

I'd love to add just a couple things here just to give some sort of spice and specifics to some examples as you just did and to further explain why this stuff has kept me up late at night.

对了，《蒂姆·费里斯秀》该彻底改成加密货币播客了。

By the way, Tim Ferriss show is just gonna become a crypto podcast.

干脆转型做这个算了。

Gonna convert to that.

不。

No.

不会的。

It will not.

不会的。

It will not.

我向大家保证，尽管我正被拉入深水区，卷入漩涡，但我还能浮水，我绝不会把所有人都拖下水。

I promise, folks, even though I'm getting pulled into the deep water and getting spun into the vortex, I I I'm able to tread water, and I will I will not pull everyone in with me.

但这些内容很重要，我认为非常值得探索，它让我感到兴奋，因为我看到许多优秀的创作者、作家、音乐人因为不擅长营销而挣扎，但他们拥有死忠粉丝。

But this stuff is import I think it's very important to explore, and it's excited me because I have seen how much good creators, good authors, good musicians have struggled because they are not good at marketing, but they have diehard fans.

也许是一小群死忠粉丝，但他们确实拥有一批忠实支持者，而这个播客的许多听众应该会认出凯文·凯利那篇名为《一千个铁杆粉丝》的文章或博客。

Maybe a small group of diehard fans, but they have some number of diehard fans, and many of the listeners of this podcast will recognize the title of an essay or blog post called 1,000 true fans by Kevin Kelly.

我知道，克里斯，你也写过关于‘一千个铁杆粉丝’的内容。

I know that, Chris, you've you've also written about 1,000 true fans.

你可以在 kk.org 上找到它。

You can find it at kk.org.

我一直在不断地推荐它。

I recommend it consistently all the time.

Web3 让你能将自己的利益与真正粉丝的集体利益对齐，通过让他们拥有你创造的数字资产来实现这一点。

And what Web3 allows you to do is align your interest with collective interest with other true fans self interest by allowing them to own digital property that you create.

让我感到兴奋的是，我看到了大量的实验性尝试。

And what has excited me is I'm seeing a lot of experimentation.

我们刚才在讨论 Web3 的一些优势，克里斯，你之前也提到了 Web3 的一些优势。

So were talking about some of the advantages of, Chris, you were talking about some of the advantages of Web three.

Web3 的另一个优势是，它似乎——当然，如果我说错了请纠正我——相比 Web2 时代，许多公司或项目更容易达到起飞速度。

One of the advantages of Web three is also it appears, and please correct me if I get in this wrong, guys, is that it is very easy, relatively speaking, compared to, say, Web two era for many companies or projects to reach escape velocity.

例如，如果他们筹款，可能只需进行一两次小额融资，然后发行代币，就能通过一群作为利益相关者的集体来掌控自己的命运。

So if they're raising money, for instance, they might raise once or twice small amounts of capital, and then they have a token, and they're able to sort of control their destiny through a collective who act as stakeholders.

此外，如果我们以无聊猿游艇俱乐部为例，你可以看到，由于可组合性，也就是这种乐高积木式的特性，以及成本门槛低，人们能够进行广泛的实验。

And in addition to that, if we look at an example like Bored Ape Yacht Club, people can take a look, you're seeing because of the composability, right, this Lego block aspect and low barriers to entry with respect to cost that people are able to experiment widely.

在无聊猿游艇俱乐部的案例中，感谢 Punk6529 与我分享这个例子，因为我之前并不知情——除了出售与该 NFT 相关的 JPEG 图像，即赋予你这一数字资产的所有权外，至少部分购买者还获得了商业使用权。

And in the case of Bored Ape Yacht Club, and thanks to punk six five two nine for sharing this particular example with me because I wasn't aware, in addition to selling, say, the the JPEG associated with this NFT, this property title that gives you this digital asset, commercial rights were also provided to at least some purchasers of these Bored Ape yacht clubs.

于是，人们带着自己特定的无聊猿去创办咖啡公司或精酿啤酒公司。

So then you have people who are going out with their specific Bored Ape and creating coffee companies or creating craft brew companies.

我以前从没见过这样的事情。

I've never seen anything like that before.

如果你是一位年轻、精通科技的知识产权律师，你的服务将会非常抢手。

And certainly if you're a young, young tech savvy intellectual property lawyer, your services are going to be in need.

跟上步伐真好。

Good to get up to speed.

但所有这些实验都能以如此低的成本同时进行，这让我相信，这个生态系统将通过自然选择、进化和不同类型的重组，产生大量非常令人兴奋的东西。

But the fact that all of these experiments can be run concurrently at such low cost says to me that the ecosystem is going to produce through natural selection and evolution and recombination of different types, lots of things that will be very, very exciting.

而且，即使98%、99%最终都成了垃圾也没关系，因为那个赢家就像在1999年或2000年找到亚马逊或谷歌一样，将会产生巨大的影响。

And, you know, it doesn't even matter if 98%, 99% end up being garbage because the winner is kind of like finding Amazon or Google in '99 or 2000, will end up being so impactful.

也许这只是我在喝迷魂汤。

And maybe that's just me drinking the Kool Aid.

我不知道。

I don't know.

但对我来说，感觉就是这样。

But that's how it feels to me.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，你说得对。

I mean, like, you're right.

比如无聊猿，我觉得他们最近推出的突变猿项目很有趣，他们搞了一个活动，你得到一种药水，就能获得你的突变版对应形象。

Like, bored apes, I think that the recent drop they did with the mutant apes, so they did this thing where you got, like, a potion and you could get kind of your mutant counterpart.

我觉得他们赚了一亿美元。

I think they made a $100,000,000.

据我所知，他们并没有筹集风险投资，就靠这一轮发售赚了一亿美元。

I don't as far as I know, they haven't raised venture capital, and they made a 100,000,000 on that one drop.

所以，没错，这确实是一个不同的商业模式。

So certainly, yes, it's a different economic model.

他们更进一步，让你拥有商业使用权。

They take it farther where you get the commercial rights.

下一个阶段，现在人们正在探索的是让社区来创作叙事，比如Wattpad这样的粉丝社区。

The next stage, which people are playing around with now, is to actually have the community create narratives and so for example, Wattpad, you know, these kind of fan fit community.

想象一下下一个《哈利·波特》。

Imagine the the next Harry Potter.

未来的《哈利·波特》将由NFT持有者拥有，他们可以创作各种有趣的虚构故事，并通过投票决定哪些内容成为正史，哪些不是。

The future Harry Potter is owned by the NFT holders, and they get to decide they get to write all sorts of interesting fiction, and then they get to vote and decide what becomes canon and what is not.

想象一下人们对《星球大战》以及其他这类社区的热情，现在再想象他们拥有并掌控其中的一部分。

Imagine the passion people have for Star Wars and all these other kinds of communities, and now imagine they own a piece of it and they control a piece of it.

事情即将变得非常、非常有趣。

It's about to get really, really interesting.

我认为自九十年代以来，还没有出现过如此旺盛的创意能量。

I don't think there's been this much creative kind of energy since the nineties.

我认为移动互联网无法与之相比。

I don't think mobile compares to it.

现在我们终于谈到核心了，那就是NFT，非同质化代币。

Now we get into the meat of it, which are NFTs, non fungible tokens.

这正是克里斯从第一天起就一直在关注的事情。

And this is something that Chris has been on from day one.

在我认识的所有投资者中，克里斯是第一个大规模进入NFT领域并始终坚持的人。

Of all the investors that I know in the entire space, Chris has been the first one who got into NFTs in a big way and has stayed consistent on.

事实上，二月份我记得和他见面时，他满嘴都是NFT，我当时根本不懂。

In fact, February, remember meeting with him, and all he wanted to talk was NFTs, I didn't even understand at the time.

我当时就说，是的。

And I was like, yeah.

好吧，克里斯。

Whatever, Chris.

听起来挺酷的。

That sounds cool.

不错的玩具。

Nice toy.

我当时在想，你刚才说啥来着？

And I'm like, what what did you say again?

所以我错过了NFT。

So I I sort of missed NFTs.

但对我而言，NFT解答了之前我一直无法回答的许多问题。

But NFTs for me answered a whole bunch of questions that I didn't have the answer to before.

一个问题就是，很多人早早买进了比特币，并在我们从法定货币转向类似克里斯曾称之为‘稀缺数学支撑货币’的过程中获得了巨额财富。

One question was a bunch of people showed up and they bought Bitcoin early, and they get to get rich in this giant wealth transfer as we move from fiat currencies into sort of scarce math backed currencies, as Chris also once called them.

那是否意味着，只有2009到2015或2016年间入场的人才能致富，而其他人只能沦为穷人？

And so does that just mean that the people who showed up in 2009 to 2015 or '16 get rich and everybody else kind of is a pauper?

不是。

No.

网上流传着一句有趣的说法：每一代人都会发明属于自己的新型庞氏骗局，同时否定上一代人的庞氏骗局。

There's a funny quote out there floating around where somebody said, every generation invents its own new Ponzi scheme and rejects the previous generation's Ponzi scheme.

而如今，我们所处的时代节奏快得多。

And now we're moving in much faster times.

所以上一代人的庞氏骗局可能是比特币或以太坊。

So the previous generation's Ponzi scheme might have been Bitcoin or Ethereum.

如果你想想比特币是什么，比特币出现时说：我们拒绝法币。

If you think about what Bitcoin is, Bitcoin shows up and says, we reject fiat.

我们拒绝印刷出来的货币。

We reject printed money.

我们拒绝国王、统治者和暴君。

We reject kings and rulers and tyrants.

我们要的是人民的货币。

We want the people's currency.

很好。

Great.

我们已经有了。

We got that.

然后有人说：等等。

And then someone says, wait.

你可以创建自己的货币。

You can create your own currency.

好吧，我想创建我自己的货币。

Well, I wanna create my own currency.

于是你看到了这么多山寨币，每个人都跳出来表示：我也有自己的货币。

So you get all these altcoins, and everybody steps up and says, well, I got my own currency.

讽刺的是，现在市面上的货币数量可能比代币还多。

So ironically, there are now probably more currencies out there than there are tokens.

货币的数量比比特币还多。

There are more there's more currencies than Bitcoin.

于是人们争相主张：别用你的账本，用我的账本。

And so people are fighting to say, well, instead of your ledger of record, let's use my ledger of record.

而NFT的支持者则说，实际上，数字价值和数字资产就像时尚一样。

And NFTs are people say come up and say, actually, maybe digital value, digital assets are like fashion.

它们是文化。

They're culture.

它们始终在不断涌现。

They're always emerging.

它们总在不断重组。

They're always composing.

它们总在不断融合。

They're always combining.

它们总在过时。

They're always going out of style.

就像在现实世界中，任何流行的东西都可能具有价值。

And just like in the real world, anything that's in fashion can hold value.

它可能是房地产，这才是真正的应用场景。

It could be real estate, which is the real use case.

它可能是石油。

It could be oil.

它可能是黄金。

It could be gold.

它可能是每一栋房子。

It could be every single house.

它也可能是每一个企业。

It could be every single business.

它也可能是双鞋子。

It could be a pair of shoes.

它也可能是笔记本电脑在一段时间内的价值。

It could be a laptop for a brief period of time.

就像每一个拥有社区和文化支持的数字资产，都能在一段时间内保有其价值。

The same way every digital asset that has a community and a culture around it can hold value for some period of time.

当然，这种价值分布会非常非线性。

Now, of course, it will be very nonlinearly distributed.

绝大多数物品的价值会趋向于零。

The vast majority of objects will trend towards zero value.

它可能只是昙花一现，但至少这为那些晚加入加密革命的人——虽然‘晚’是引号里的，因为我们仍处于早期阶段——提供了一个机会，让他们可以说：好吧。

It maybe flashes in the pan, but at least this gives a chance for everybody who's coming late to the crypto revolution, late in quotes because we're still so early, gets a chance to say, okay.

我们可以将任何我们认为有价值的对象定义为具有价值。

We can define any object as having value that we believe has value.

我们围绕NFT创造的这些文化迷因，比如无聊猿游艇俱乐部，并不需要逼迫你持有它们。

And these cultural memes that we're creating around NFTs, like Bored Ape Yacht Club, they don't have to, like, harass you into hodling them.

Hodling 是比特币社区里的一个迷因。

Hodling is this meme in the Bitcoin community.

对吧？

Right?

你必须持有你的比特币。

You gotta hold your Bitcoin.

这是 'hold' 的拼写错误，被称为 hodl。

It's a misspelling of hold called hodl.

但在NFT世界里，你持有是因为情感价值。

But in the NFT world, you hold for sentimental value.

如果你是Punk 6529，有人来找你买你的Punk，你是不会卖的。

If you're punk six five two nine, someone comes up to buy your punk, you're not gonna sell it.

事实上，最近就有个著名的例子，有人把他的Punk用作Twitter头像，因为它成了Twitter的新蓝标，但实际上它是通过钱包所有权验证和确认的。

In fact, I think just famously recently, one of the punks who's using it as Twitter ID because it's the new blue check mark on Twitter, but it's actually validated and verified through wallet ownership.

有人出价一千万美元买他的CryptoPunk，那只是一个随机的、普通的8位像素CryptoPunk，但他拒绝出售，因为那是他的身份象征。

He got offered something like $10,000,000 for his CryptoPunk, and it was just kind of a random generic little eight bit pixel CryptoPunk, but he refused to sell because that was his identity.

他基本上不得不表示，尽管我可能没那么值钱，但我不是商品。

And he basically had to say, even though I may not be worth that much money, I'm not for sale.

这实际上让它成为了一个文化迷因和标志，现在他的CryptoPunk价值可能更高了。

And that actually made it a cultural meme and an icon, and now his CryptoPunk's probably worth even more.

所以NFT是一个极其引人入胜的深奥话题。

So NFTs are this absolutely fascinating rabbit hole.

我认为克里斯可能是最早大规模识别NFT的人，早在他投资Dapper Labs时就已如此。

I think Chris was probably the first investor to identify them at scale going all the way back to his Dapper Labs investment.

这些人打造了CryptoKitties，并从中不断演进。

These are the people who built CryptoKitties and evolving from there.

我真的很想听听克里斯谈谈NFT的发展历程，以及它们未来的走向。

So I would just love to hear Chris go into NFTs, like the evolution of them and kinda where they're headed.

是的。

Yeah.

我显然对NFT非常兴奋。

I'm obviously I'm very, excited about NFTs.

我认为它们看起来……

I think that they're look.

我认为它们非常、非常广泛，我称之为原始形态。

I think they're very, very broad, what I would call primitive.

所谓原始，是想让你理解，我们用这个词是因为它们是互联网的基础性构建模块。

Primitive, just so you understand, like, the way we kinda use it is because it's kinda key building foundational building blocks of the Internet.

我认为大多数问题都源于我之前提到的那些限制——使用开放方法时你能构建的东西是有限的。

And I think that most of the issues that developed were some of things I talked about earlier about how you could only you were limited in what you could build using open methods.

坦白说，很多问题其实来自广告。

And a lot of the problems, frankly, I think come from advertising.

因为我们过去没有原生的支付、代币以及我们现在拥有的这些功能。

The fact that we didn't have native payments and tokens and all these things we now have.

谷歌想做的，是建立一个封闭的数字闭环。

What Google want to do, they want to have a digital closed loop.

在加密货币出现之前，数字封闭循环只能通过广告实现。

And a digital closed loop prior to crypto, you you could really only do that with advertising.

因此我们建立了庞大的基础设施。

And so we built this giant infrastructure.

如今的互联网由横幅广告、搜索广告之类的东西驱动。

The Internet now is powered by banner ads and search ads and things like this.

这对少数公司来说非常有利。

And that has been great for a few companies.

但对于创意人士来说，总体上非常糟糕。

It's generally been really, really bad for creative people.

昨天有个人发了一条很棒的推文。

There was someone who had a great tweet yesterday.

Web2公司说服你交出自己的创作，只换取一些小爱心。

The web two companies convinced you to give away your creations in exchange for little hearts.

但，是的，跟我说说NFTs到底哪里是骗局之类的事情。

But, yeah, tell me about how NFTs are the real scam or something.

它是一些

It was some

是的

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

类似的表述。

Formulation like that.

他们竟然说服了这么多人，这简直令人惊讶。

Like, it's kind of amazing that they've convinced all these people.

你知道吗，Instagram 给创作者支付多少报酬？

Oh, you know, Instagram, what do they pay out?

零。

Zero.

Facebook，也是零。

Facebook, zero.

Twitter，零。

Twitter, zero.

YouTube，50%。

YouTube, 50%.

苹果，仅仅因为拥有手机，就拿走30%。

Apple, just for having the phone, they take 30%.

你知道有多少企业无法承受30%的抽成吗？

Do know how many businesses can't survive when you take 30%?

我们居然能忍受这种状况，真是有点疯狂。

It's kinda crazy that we put up with this.

所以，正如你所说，先把NFT放一边。

So now, as you said, put aside NFTs.

就看看Substack吧。

Just look at, like, Substack.

Substack里面根本没有加密货币。

So there's no crypto in Substack.

那Substack到底怎么回事？

So what's going on with Substack?

这是一个平台，类似于一个新闻通讯平台，作家可以注册并让读者订阅。

It's a platform and, like, a sort of a newsletter platform you can go to as a writer and have people subscribe to it.

这想法相当简单，而且非常优雅。

It's relatively simple, really elegant idea.

但你现在看到的有趣现象是，一些以前可能年收入只有十万美金左右的作家，现在年收入能达到一百万美元。

But the interesting thing you see now is you see writers who previously might make, I don't know, what, a $100,000 or something, getting a million dollars a year.

而且很多人说：嘿，这不该发生。

And And you see a lot of people saying, hey, that shouldn't happen.

我们曾被告诉互联网对创意人士不利。

We were told the Internet is bad for creative people.

互联网对创意人士并不不利。

The Internet is not bad for creative people.

Web 2.0 才是对创意人士不利的。

Web two is bad for creative people.

我前几天刚看到Spotify的一个数据。

Spotify, I just saw the stat the other day.

Spotify宣传了一个数据。

Spotify advertises a stat.

他们有800万位艺术家，其中1.4万人年收入达到5万美元，其余的都少于这个数目。

They have 8,000,000 artists, 14,000 of them make 50,000 a year, the rest make less than that.

这些都是生意。

Those are businesses.

你有成本。

You have costs.

你基本上很难在低于这个收入水平的情况下生活。

You basically it's very hard to live below that.

所以，在800万位艺术家中，只有1.4万人能靠这个谋生。

So 14,000 kinda make a living out of 8,000,000.

这算成功吗？

Is that working?

顺便说一句，我不是在指责声田（Spotify）。

I'm not blaming Spotify, by the way.

大部分钱都流去唱片公司了，而且我觉得声田是家不错的公司。

A lot of that money goes to labels, and I think Spotify is a good company.

问题出在这个模式本身。

It's the model.

是这个模式背后的逻辑存在问题。

It's the logic of that model.

所以还有些这样的例子，比如说那个叫布劳（Blau）的音乐人，我记得他在Spotify上算是个中等体量的艺术家。

So and then you have these cases of, like, this musician, Blau, who I think he's like a medium sized artist on Spotify.

他发行了一波NFT。

He did an NFT drop.

靠这个赚了1100万美元。

He made $11,000,000.

就算你觉得这1100万美元的收益是泡沫之类的——很多人也说这是泡沫——但哪怕他只赚到了10万美元，那也完全能改写他的处境了。

Even if you assume that $11,000,000 is a bubble or something, people say it's a bubble, if he made a $100,000, it's transformative.

Substack 上发生的事情也是一样的。

It's the same thing that's going on with Substack.

因此，现在你有了一个非常强大的新方式，让那些过去最多只能获得横幅广告、收入极低的创意人士，现在能够去创造各种有趣的东西。

And so what you have is now you have this really powerful new way for creative people who were previously getting banner ads at best, very poor monetization, are now able to go and and create all sorts of interesting things.

我们现在看到的只是它的早期版本。

And this is we're seeing the early versions of it.

你可以创建一个 JPEG。

You could create a JPEG.

你可以创建数字专辑封面。

You can create digital album art.

这已经是音乐人现在普遍在做的事情了。

It's sort of an obvious thing that musicians are doing now.

但它可以远不止这些。

But it can be much more than that.

它只是一个对象。

It's it's just an object.

就像在现实世界中，我们有各种不同类别的对象。

Just like in the real world, we have all sorts of different classes of objects.

我们有艺术。

We have art.

我们有实用工具。

We have utilities.

NFT 是一个非常广泛的概念。

We have NFTs are just as broad a concept.

因此，我认为你会看到各种有趣的实验，比如你作为一名音乐人，可能会获得一件既美观又能以多种方式使用的东西。

And so I think you're gonna see all sorts of interesting experimentation where, you know, maybe you a musician, you get a you get something that's beautiful, but also you can go use in different ways.

你可以从游戏中取出它，带入其他体验，或者用它作为门票去参加现实中的演出。

You can take it from a game or bring it into another experience or use it to go to a real life show as a ticket.

它也是一种支持创作者的方式。

And it's also it's a means of patronage.

我认为我所经历的一件事是，我真心鼓励人们参与这些社群，去理解它们。

I think one of the things I experience I I really encourage people to to participate in these communities to understand them.

我在Foundation上购买NFT，那是我们的投资之一，是一个高端艺术NFT平台，具有精选性质。

I buy NFTs on Foundation, which is one of our investments, which is sort of an high end art NFT platform, curated platform.

比如，我买了一位平面设计师的很多NFT，他给我发了私信，现在我们成了朋友。

For example, there's a science fiction writer who I sorry, graphic designer who I bought a bunch of his NFTs, and he DMs me, and now we're friends.

我以前完全不理解那些购买实体线下艺术作品的人。

And it's like, never understood people that gave that bought physical offline art.

我从来对这类东西不感兴趣。

I've never had any interest in it.

但现在我有点明白了，因为我觉得：嘿。

Now I kinda get it though because I'm like, hey.

这人真酷。

This guy's cool.

我想加入他的圈子。

I wanna be part of his be in his network.

我从事风险投资。

I do venture capital.

我整天都和科技圈的人待在一起。

I hang around with tech people all day.

能和艺术家聊天对我来说很有趣。

It's fun for me to, like, be able to talk to an artist.

同时，我还能以一种非交易的方式支持他，成为他的赞助人。

And at the same time, I can support him in this sort of non transactional way and be his patron.

看看有没有人在这个网站上买东西是为了赚钱。

And see if some people are buying stuff on on these web sites to make money.

有些人是为了支持艺术家。

Some are doing it to patronize.

有些人则是我认为，未来我们会看到越来越多的实际应用场景。

Some are doing it to I think down the road, we're gonna see more and more utility use cases.

目前游戏领域非常有趣。

The gaming is really interesting right now.

我觉得这个世界还没意识到这一点，但我可以告诉你，我们公司有一个游戏团队，但不涉及加密货币。

This I think the world hasn't seen this yet, but I will tell you, we have a games group at our firm that doesn't do crypto.

这几乎涵盖了他们现在所看到的所有内容。

And it's close to a 100% of the things they're seeing now.

这些人都来自像Riot和Blizzard这样的公司，是那里的创始人。

These are people out of these are founders that come out of, like, Riot and Blizzard and things like this.

我认为，他们现在进行的会议中，几乎100%都涉及NFT。

I think it's close to a 100% of the of the of the meetings they have now involve NFTs.

游戏界的人们对此心领神会。

The games people get this.

他们站在前沿，尤其是那些更年轻的下一代，未来会有非常多有趣的东西。

They're at the cutting edge, especially the kind of the younger ones, the next cohort, and there is going to be so much interesting stuff.

这些应用将会带来真正的实用价值。

And these things this is gonna be real utility.

你可以拿起这件艺术品。

So you can take this piece of art.

你可以拿起这把剑，自由组合、重新搭配，他们都能立刻理解可组合性及其重要性。

You can take this sword, and you can mix and match and move it around, and they all kind of immediately get composability and why it's important.

而且我们会见证一波接一波层出不穷的创意产物。

And we're just gonna see, like, wave after wave of very creative things.

在我看来，NFT这个概念的普适性就和网页一样。

I think of an NFT as it's as general a concept as the web page.

想想看网站这个东西，

Think about the website.

它刚出现的时候，人们只会说‘哦，这是个网站’，还总试图把它套用到线下世界的逻辑里。

When it first comes out, people are like, oh, it's a website, you know, and they try to kinda map it to the offline world.

它就像一份宣传手册。

It's like a brochure.

但就像我们在这三十年里看到的那样，一众聪明人不断涌现，为互联网开拓创新，它不再是一个简单的网站了。

But then as we saw over this sort of thirty year period, all of these clever people come and they innovate a web it's not a website.

它是社交网络。

It's a social network.

它是SaaS工具。

It's a SaaS tool.

这是一个。

It's a this.

那是一个。

It's a that.

NFT将会同样广泛。

NFTs are gonna be just as broad.

这是一个全新的核心概念。

It's a core new concept.

是的。

Yep.

在互联网上拥有某物的理念。

Idea of owning something on the Internet.

我喜欢用另一种方式来理解它：想象一下，在现实世界中，我们什么都不能拥有。

Another way I like to think about it is, like, imagine if in the real world, we couldn't own anything.

每次你去——这是一个有点荒谬的类比，但每次你去酒店或餐厅，他们都会说：哦，你得换衣服，买一套新 outfits。

And every time you go this is kind of a wacky analogy, but, like, every time you go to a hotel or a restaurant, they're like, oh, you gotta change your clothes and buy a new outfit.

这就是互联网的工作方式，然后你离开时，嘿，你得把这些东西还回去。

This is how the Internet works And then you leave, hey, you gotta give that stuff back.

对吧？

Right?

然后有一天，有人出现并说：不。

And then one day, comes along and they say, no.

你可以把它带走。

You can take it with you.

是的。

Yep.

想象一下，这会引发多少创新。

Imagine the amount of innovation that would kick off.

这正是互联网上正在发生的事情。

That's kind of what's been going on in the Internet.

我们曾经有一种类似租赁领地的设计，而现在我们只是把它打破了。

We had this sort of renting fiefdom design, and we've just kind of broken it open.

所以人们说，哦，这是个泡沫，等等这些说法。

And so people say, oh, it's a bubble, this and that.

我不认为这是个泡沫，我相信这正是未来二十年非凡创意浪潮的开端。

I don't I think it's the beginning of this incredible twenty year kind of creative run, I believe.

克里斯，我很想请你多谈谈游戏方面，因为我觉得在游戏背景下，NFTs 很容易被很多人理解，即使他们不玩游戏。

I'd love, Chris, for you to talk a little bit more about the gaming because I think NFTs in the gaming context are easily understood by a lot of folks, even if they don't game.

但很多应用场景对我来说都是合理的。

But a lot of the applications make sense to me.

所以，你可以随便谈任何你想谈的内容。

So, I mean, you could talk about anything you want.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，稀有性这个概念挺有意思的。

I mean, so rare is kinda interesting.

但我认为更值得关注的——不一定更有趣，但确实有人在讨论，也许这其中带有一些天真乐观的理想主义——那就是关于全民基本收入的可能性，比如我们看看 YGG 这样的项目，你能就此谈谈吗？这到底意味着什么？

But I think even more interesting, not necessarily more interesting, but there's been talk, and I think some of this might be kind of bright eyed, bushy tailed idealism, but the possibility of say universal basic income when we look at, let's say something like YGG or could you just speak a little bit to that and what that means?

因为这对我来说非常有趣。

Because it's so interesting to me.

而且‘有趣’这个词是一个懒惰的形容词。

And and interesting is is a lazy adjective.

它令人耳目一新，令人兴奋。

It's eye opening and exciting.

如今电子游戏的商业模式是什么？

What's the model today in video games?

电子游戏很有趣，因为不断有新技术涌现，但旧的技术模式依然存在。

Video games are interesting because there have been new waves of technology, but the old wave still exists.

比如买《麦登》这样的老式电子游戏，你得花60美元，或者如今的等价价格。

So the old wave way to buy a video game with something like Madden, you pay $60 or whatever it cost these days.

这种模式依然存在。

That's still around.

这种商业模式依然存在。

That business is still around.

像EA这样的公司就是这样做的。

There's companies like EA that do that.

但在此基础上，又叠加了大量我认为更现代的公司。

But then you have layered on top of it all these kind of new more modern what I think of more modern companies.

比如，最典型的例子是《堡垒之夜》、《超级星星》、《皇室战争》和《英雄联盟》。

And, like, probably the best ones are things like Fortnite and SuperStell, Clash Royale, and League of Legends.

它们采用的模式是游戏完全免费。

These are basically the model they use is the game is completely free.

你可以永远免费玩下去，唯一需要购买的是外观类商品。

You can play it completely forever, and the only thing you buy are cosmetic goods.

你不能购买能让你获胜的道具，因为人们认为这会破坏游戏的公平性。

So you can't buy goods that make you win because people think that would kind of undermine the integrity of the game.

所以所有购买都只是为了看起来更酷、展示身份。

So it's all, you know, just to look cool, status flex.

仅虚拟商品这一块，就是一个每年价值400亿美元的产业。

And that's a $40,000,000,000 a year industry, just the virtual goods alone.