第578期：蒂姆·费里斯与马特·穆伦维格在南极洲：探索个人恐惧、愿望清单、面对悲伤、制定人生使命，以及蒂姆最棒的企鹅模仿

太震撼了，还有地平线上的效果、恒星的可见度变化，以及人们所说的阴影带——它们在地面上移动。

Stunning, and the effects on the horizon and on the visibility of stars, the things happening around it, the shadow bands as people refer to them as, right, traveling across the ground.

你看到人群那边的波浪状现象了吗？

Did you see the wavy ones from

人群？

the crowd?

那真是太超现实了。

That was so surreal.

是的。

Yeah.

这一切几乎让我回想起了史前人类的时代。

And just everything about it almost harken back for me to prehistoric humanoid times.

就像它触动了某种非常古老的东西，如果这说得通的话。

Like, it touched something very old, if that makes any sense.

它让我感受到一种深植于物种或种族记忆中的东西，追溯到数千年前——你可以想象，这对任何认真观察并注视这一现象的智慧生命会产生怎样的影响。

It felt like it touched something in species or racial memory going back thousands of years where you can imagine the impact that this would have on any sentient being who's observing it and really paying attention and watching it.

很难用语言形容。

Difficult to put into words.

这可能是我后来听到的最常见的一句话，或者说是它的某种变体。

That was the most common sentence probably, some variation of that that I heard afterwards.

人们兴奋不已。

People were giddy.

人们欣喜若狂，常说的就是：根本无法用语言描述，或者我无法用语言描述。

People were euphoric, and the expression was, you just can't put it into words or I can't put it into words.

我鼓励人们

And I encourage people

去查阅日食的历史。

to look up the history of eclipses.

历史上有一些很有趣的时刻，比如预测日食或未能预测日食，我记得有两位国王在目睹日食后去世，这甚至成为欧洲形成的一部分。

There's been some cool historical moments where predicting eclipse are not predicting eclipse or I think two kings died after seeing them, and then that was part of the creation of Europe.

是的。

Yeah.

约翰国王是虔诚的约翰国王，你刚才说的，然后欧洲被分给了

King John was John King John the Pious, you were saying, and then Europe was split up into

他的三个儿子，分别成为现在的法国、意大利和德国。

What if in what became France, what became Italy, and what became Germany to his three sons.

所以，是的，日食在塑造历史和国家边界方面似乎起到了非常重要的作用。

So, yeah, eclipses seem to figure pretty strongly into the shaping of history and the shaping of national borders.

还有什么比太阳更可靠呢？

What's more reliable than the sun?

是的。

Yeah.

而当太阳被短暂遮蔽时，确实令人敬畏。

And for that to be blotted out for a moment is, yeah, awe inspiring.

我们再做一次吧。

Let's do it again.

是的。

Yeah.

我不是随便说的。

I don't say this lightly.

我的意思是，一旦事情发生，我立刻找了几位和他们在一起的朋友，我说：我明白了。

I mean, once it once it happened though, I immediately turned to a few friends that they were with, and I was and I said, I get it.

我明白为什么人们会追逐这种体验了，因为我们这个营地里有这些壳形帐篷，排成一行行的，周围堆着雪来挡风，这里真的、真的冷得要命。

I see why people chase this because we have people here in this camp because you have these shell tents arranged in rows of sorts, and then they have snow piled around them to brace against the wind, and it does get really, really fucking cold here.

惊喜。

Surprise.

惊喜。

Surprise.

这是南极洲。

It's Antarctica.

而且这里也非常非常干燥，人们受到的阳光伤害甚至更严重

It's also very, very dry, and people get a lot of sun damage even more so

比世界上最干燥的沙漠还严重？

than The driest desert in the world?

这里很干燥。

It is dry.

这里很干燥。

It is dry.

这就是为什么你可以把牛排放在架子上，放进冰箱短时间，就能把表面弄干的原因。

It's part of the reason you can dry the surface of, say, your steak by putting it in a freezer on an elevated rack for a short period of time.

你家里最干燥的地方就是冰箱。

It's the driest place in your house is a good freezer.

我知道。

I know that.

然后你再把这个情况放大几十亿倍。

So and you just expand that a gazillion times.

我们正处在一个超级好的冰箱里。

We're in a really good freezer.

经过数百万年，你就来到了南极洲。

Over eons, and, here you are in Antarctica.

有趣的是，在联合冰川这里，没有鸟，没有动物，没有昆虫， literally 除了我们之外没有任何生命。

It's also interesting that where we are on Union Glacier, there's no birds, no animals, no insects, literally nothing living except us.

是的。

Yeah.

我本来想说这令人不安，但其实并不令人不安。

It's I was gonna say disturbingly, but it's not disturbingly.

如果你在营地的某些地方，不在喊话范围或听得到食堂声音的范围内，会感到异常安静。

It is oddly quiet when you go to certain parts of the camp if you're not within sort of shouting distance or within, hearing distance of the mess hall or something like that.

尤其是我们和企鹅相处了七天之后，是的。

And especially after we spent seven days with the penguins Yeah.

它们一直发出持续的嘈杂声。

Which have kind of a constant din.

是的。

Yeah.

而且真的很可爱。

And it was really cute.

它们会走进营地，直接从你的帐篷旁走过。

They would walk into camp and just walk past your tent.

帐篷完全没有隔音效果。

The tents have no noise isolation.

或者直接走到帐篷边上。

Or right up to the tent.

走到帐篷边上，然后说：你比噪音还安静。

Right up to the tent and go, you're you're better than noises.

他说得确实不错。

That's what he That was that was pretty good.

谢谢。

Thank you.

虽然你在繁殖地听到更多的是这种求偶叫声，但它们只是在走动。

You although that is actually the pairing call that you hear more at the colony, but they're just going

蒂姆一直在练习这个。

Tim's been practicing this.

我一直在练习，这让我的旅伴很头疼。

I have been practicing Much to the chagrin of my travel.

旅行伙伴们，我每天都会练习上百次。

Traveling companions, I've been doing that like a 100 times a day.

如果你能加入一些你录的现场音效，那会非常酷。

If you can cut in some of that field audio you took would be pretty cool.

哦，我们会的。

Oh, we will.

哦，剪辑室里会有魔法般的效果。

Oh, there will be magic in the editing room.

我不知道你能不能听到我，但这些声音来自成千上万的帝企鹅。

I have no idea if you'll be able to hear me or not, but those are the sounds of thousands of empire penguins.

它们穿着像商务正装一样的黑白羽毛，是体型最大的企鹅物种。

Adults in their business formal, black and white attire, the largest of the penguin species.

所以我猜，我不是生物学家，但大概身高在七十五到一百零七厘米之间吧。

So I would guess, I'm no biologist, but probably, let's just call it two and a half to three and a half feet tall.

大概是二十五到四十五磅。

Probably twenty five to forty five.

也许是二十五到五十磅。

Maybe twenty five to fifty pounds.

还有雏鸟，它们有着灰色的绒毛，或者至少看起来是这样。

And then there are chicks who have gray downy feathers or certainly appear to.

成年企鹅的羽毛密度大约是每平方厘米十五根。

The adults have I think, roughly 15 feathers per square centimeter.

你听到的是许多不同的叫声。

And you're hearing many different calls.

我不知道这些叫声的含义。

And I don't know the meaning.

我确信不同的叫声有不同的含义，但有一种叫声是它们把喙几乎完全贴在胸口时发出的。

Assume there certainly are meanings of the different calls but there's a which they make when they point their beaks basically straight down flat against their chests.

所以我推测这可能是某种方式在拉直它们的气管，但这与你看到的郊狼或狼嚎叫时的姿态正好相反。

So I imagine that's straightening their tracheas somehow, but it's the opposite of what you would see with say a coyote or a wolf howling.

我在这儿。

And here I am.

天哪。

Holy shit.

南极洲。

Antarctica.

所以，马特，我们接下来该去哪儿？

So, Matt, where should we where should we go next?

你觉得呢

What do

你有什么想法？

you think?

我们要不要把牌拿出来看看会发生什么？

You wanna you wanna should we pull out the deck and see what happens?

我们要不要去别的地方？

Should we go somewhere else?

过去五年里还有其他事情吗？

Are there other things in the last five years?

也许我们会慢慢谈到这个。

Maybe we'll we'll roll into that.

我的意思是，五年时间，感觉我们录制其他集数好像就是最近的事，但实际上并不算近。

I mean, five years, it seems like so recently that we recorded our other episodes, and it's not that recent.

我的意思是，确实不算近。

I mean, it's not.

假设我们能活八十岁，甚至八十五岁，那么五年占了相当可观的比例。

It's like if you live 80 let's just say we live eighty, eighty five years, it's like five years is a meaningful percentage of that.

确实如此。

It's true.

是的。

Yeah.

这让我想起蒂姆·乌尔曼写的一篇很棒的文章。

Makes me think of that essay, great one from Tim Urban.

尾巴部分，是的。

The tail end Yeah.

你向我介绍了这篇文章，我分享给了很多人，还把一个经过编辑的——我觉得不算大幅编辑，只是稍微缩短了一点的版本放进了《巨人的工具》里，因为它对我影响深远。

Which you introduced me to and I have shared with so many people, put an edited or I don't think it was highly edited, but, like, a slightly shortened version in I think it was Tools of Titans because that had such an impact on me.

这一切都要感谢穆伦韦格先生。

And that's all thanks to mister Mullenweg.

是的。

Yeah.

自从我们上一期节目以来，其中一件大事就是我父亲去世了。

That was one of the big things since our last episode was my father passing.

是的。

Yeah.

你在那段时间一直是我很好的朋友，非常感谢你。

You were a great friend through all that, so thank you.

但这件事让我对悲伤、生命的无常等有了很多领悟。

But that taught me a lot about grief and the ephemerality of life and everything.

所以那是一个很大的变化。

So that was a big one.

是的。

Yeah.

过去五年里，我生活中的几乎所有事情都发生了巨大变化。

Pretty much everything in my life has changed a lot in the past five years.

我们上次交谈时甚至还没有收购WooCommerce。

We hadn't even acquired WooCommerce when we last spoke.

今年，它的交易量将达到多少呢？

And this year, it's gonna do what's the number?

我想大约是210亿笔交易。

I would say about I think 21,000,000,000 transactions.

我们希望为电子商务做我们为网站做过的事情。

You know, we're hoping to do for ecommerce what we did for websites.

我认为这是有可能的，而网络也需要一个开源的商业解决方案。

And I think there's a chance, and the the web wants an open source thing out there for commerce.

所以让我感到兴奋的是，一切总是在变化。

So I think what's been exciting for me is everything is always changing.

我不擅长停滞不前。

I'm not good at staying still.

一切总是在变化，不是从宏观世界的角度，虽然我明白你指的是你个人的情况。

Everything is always changing, not in a macro world sense, although I guess that's true you're saying for you personally.

是的。

Yeah.

你前几天问我，我有没有每周的固定安排，比如星期一是员工会议，星期二是

You asked me the other day, do I have, like, a weekly routine where, like, Mondays are staff meetings, Tuesdays are

员工，是的。

staff Yeah.

你有一套每周的安排体系，因为像杰克·多西这样的人也谈过这个。

You have an infrastructure for your week because people like Jack Dorsey have talked about this.

我不知道他现在是否还这么做。

I don't know if he he he does it any longer.

但我确实问过你，你的回答是什么？

But I I did ask you, and your answer was?

每一天都不同。

Every day is different.

这正是让我觉得特别兴奋的原因，因为我感觉自己总是在学习。

And that's part of what keeps it super exciting for me because I feel like I'm always learning.

我对播客软件、日记软件、电子商务软件或任何东西都一无所知，但我喜欢制作人们使用的工具。

I know nothing about podcasting software or journaling software or ecommerce software or anything, but I love making tools that people use.

这非常令人满足。

It's very, satisfying.

如果你不介意，我们暂时再回到你父亲去世的事情上。

If you don't mind, let's just come back for a second to your dad's passing.

是的。

Yeah.

我知道那无疑是一个极其艰难的时期。

And I know that was an understandably extremely tough period.

我甚至不知道你是否真正消化了这件事。

And I don't even know if it's something you you've ever fully metabolized.

你是否把这件事看作已经过去的，比如你已经经历过了，还是你至今仍在承受着？

If that's something you even view in the past tense, like something you went through or if it's something that you continue to live with.

但我的问题是，如果你有任何资源、工具、书籍，或者只是建议，想提供给正在经历悲伤、失去亲人，或即将失去亲人的人，你会推荐什么？

But my question is, if there are any resources, tools, books, or just simply advice that you would give to someone who is experiencing grief or has lost someone or maybe is on the cusp of losing someone.

是的。

Yeah.

在我那段时期，最有帮助的书是由伊丽莎白·库布勒-罗斯合著的，她提出了库布勒-罗斯阶段模型，我想。

The book that I found most helpful during that was coauthored by Elizabeth Kubler Ross, who came up with the Kubler Ross scale, I think.

那就是五个阶段：否认、愤怒、接受——悲伤的五个阶段。

That's the five stages, denial, anger, acceptance of the five stages of grief.

那本书叫什么来着？我想是《悲伤与哀悼》。

The book was called, I think, grief and grieving.

是的。

Yeah.

关于悲伤

On grief and

和哀悼。

grieving.

关于悲伤和哀悼。

On grief and grieving.

那本书非常有力量。

That one was really powerful.

可能只是《悲伤和哀悼》。

Might be just grief and grieving.

我不该这么武断。

I shouldn't be so definitive.

但，是其中的一本。

But, yeah, one of the two.

是的。

Yeah.

所以那个对我帮助非常大。

So that one was very, very helpful for me.

但我学到的一件事是，这个过程非常个人化，每个人都不一样。

But one of the things I learned was how personal the process is and how different it is.

比如，我和我妹妹的哀悼方式完全不同。

Like, for example, for me and my sister grieved completely differently.

从那以后，我也看到其他朋友经历了类似的过程。

And I've seen other friends go through this since then.

所以我只想说，我真正学到的一点是，每个人都有自己处理哀伤的方式，而且发生的时间也各不相同。

And so I would just say one thing I really learned is just that everyone has their own way of processing, and it'll happen at different times.

当别人哀悼的方式和你不一样时，很容易感到烦躁、生气、愤怒或失望，嗯。

And it's very easy to get annoyed or mad or angry or disappointed at how someone else is grieving Mhmm.

如果他们的做法和你的不同。

If it's different from yours.

这本书是怎么帮助你的？

How did the book help you?

它解释了什么，或者帮助你接受了什么、澄清了什么，或者其他方面？

What did it explain or help you to accept or clarify or otherwise?

我听说过那五个阶段，但以为它们是按顺序依次发生的，就像按顺序赢取一样。

I'd heard of those five stages, but I thought they happened serially, like you win an order.

这正是我原本的假设。

Well, that's what I would assume.

结果发现，这些阶段可以不按顺序出现，甚至可以在同一天、同一小时内同时经历多个阶段。

And it turns out you you can have them out of order and multiple ones at the same time and in the same day, in the same hour.

所以这一点真的很有帮助。

And so that was really helpful.

预 grieving 是我从这本书中学到很多的一个概念。

Pre grieving was something I learned a lot from the book.

这个观点是，如果你预感到某人即将离世，其实早在那之前就已经开始了一整套哀悼过程。

This idea that if you have a sense that someone's going to pass, there's actually a whole grieving process that happens before then.

我父亲在医院住了大约五周，那是我一生中最强烈的时期之一。

And my father was in the hospital for about five weeks, so that was one of the most intense periods of my life.

这种预先哀悼，我之前真的没有理解。

And that pre grieving, I hadn't really understood.

这些确实是挺重要的几点。

Those those are some big ones.

是的。

Yeah.

而且这也很有帮助。

And it's been helpful as well.

我认为，尤其是在美国文化中，我们很少谈论死亡。

I think, especially in American culture, we don't talk about death.

对。

Yeah.

我们不去思考它，还喜欢假装它不会发生，但这是唯一一件确定会发生在我们每个人身上的事。

We don't think about it, and we like to pretend it doesn't happen, but it's the one thing that for certain is gonna happen to every single one of us.

我们所有人都

And we're all

迟早会失去我们爱的人，

gonna lose someone we love,

而我们某天也会离世。

and we'll pass someday.

就像斯多葛学派那样，我认为你越思考死亡，就越能更好地应对它，并在他人经历时给予帮助。

And very much like the stoics, I think that the more you think about it, the better you are able to handle it yourself and help others when they're going through it.

我手机上有一个应用。

I have an app for my phone.

我想它叫什么来着？

I think it's what is it?

布塔内斯。

Butanese.

它叫 Mycroak 或 Wecroak。

It's called Mycroak or Wecroak.

Wecroak。

Wecroak.

是的

Yeah.

我用过Wecroak。

I've used Wecroak.

一天五次，它会给你发送通知。

And five times a day, it just sends you a notification.

就是一个提醒：我们都会死。

It's like, just a reminder, we're all gonna die.

它会给你一句名言。

Gives you a quote.

然后它会给你一句名言。

And then it gives you a quote

你可以打开应用。

that you can open the app.

那个确实挺好的。

That one's been yeah.

我一直保持着这个习惯。

I've kept that going.

是的。

Yeah.

我想我们之前可能聊过这个，但我在Chrome的新标签页上计算了我大概还能活多少天。

I also I think we might have talked about this before, but on my Chrome new tab, I sort of calculated the average number of days I'm probably gonna live.

所以每当我打开一个新标签页，都会看到一个倒计时。

So every time I open a new tab, has a countdown.

这是你自己手动设置的，还是其他人也能轻松做到？

Is that some that's something you did manually or is that something other people can do reasonably easily?

是的。

Yeah.

我用了一个叫Momentum的标签页工具，它可以自定义你的新标签页界面，还能设置倒计时。

Use a tab thing called Momentum, which allows you to customize your new tab screen, and it can do countdowns.

我记得日期是2062年1月11日，我选了我的生日，然后它就开始倒计时了。

And so I think the dates was something like twenty sixty two thousand January 11, I picked my birthday, and then it just counts down.

这也很有趣。

And so that's also really interesting.

我发现，每当我打开新标签页时，这正好是一个很好的提醒，提醒我可能开始分心了。

And I find also a good interrupt to remind me when I'm starting a new tab, is usually the beginning of distraction or something.

完全正确。

So Totally.

它只显示‘memento mori’和倒计时。

That that it just says momento mori and the countdown.

你有没有发现，你开始对这个提醒视而不见？

Do you find that you begin to tune that out?

我以前用过Momentum。

So I've used momento.

我非常喜欢它。

I like it a lot.

但你最终会不会对这个提醒产生免疫力？

But do you end up at some point becoming immune to the reminder?

你有这种体验吗，还是没那么明显？

Do you experience that or not so much?

你有什么方法来防止这种情况吗？

Is there anything you do to prevent that?

是的。

Yeah.

我确实已经对它产生了选择性忽视。

I've definitely developed, a selective blindness to it.

我今天刚在想，如果我经常使用主屏幕上的每一个应用的话

I was actually just thinking today, like, if I just used every app on my home screen regularly

对。

Yeah.

我的生活可能会好很多。

My life would probably be much better.

你知道，我有Calm和FitBot，还有这些我放在智能垫、用心垫上的应用。

You know, I've got Calm and FitBot and all these sorts of things that I put on the, like, smart mats, thoughtful mats.

智能垫。

Smart mats.

把那个放在主页上

Put that on the home screen

你的未来。

of your future.

是的。

Yeah.

但我还是会滑到那四个

But I'll still scroll the four

屏幕去打开推特、Instagram 或其他应用。

screens over to get to Twitter, Instagram, or something.

是的。

Yeah.

在我们被如此多事物牵制的情况下，很难赢下这一仗。

It's hard to win that one, outgunned as we are.

我实际上把手机上的所有应用都删了。

I actually deleted all apps from my phone.

不好意思。

Excuse me.

那样做没有任何意义。

That would not make any sense.

那样会让我的手机变得很难用。

That would make my phone very hard to use.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

大约一年半前，我把所有社交应用都从手机上删了，嗯哼。

Deleted all social apps from my phone about a year and a half ago Mhmm.

之后再也没有重新安装过任何一个。

And haven't installed haven't reinstalled any of them.

这在某些方面让我感到自由，但在另一方面也让人沮丧，因为我看到了这些工具多么令人上瘾，以及我会通过使用浏览器来寻找替代方案。

And it's been liberating in some ways and also frustrating in others to see how addictive these tools are and how I will find workarounds by using I mean The browser.

是的。

Yeah.

浏览器。

The browser.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

而且这构成了一个障碍。

And and it it provides a hurdle.

对吧？

Right?

所以，糖果并不在触手可及的地方。

So it's like the candy isn't within reach.

也就是说，我得像打开一扇门、走进另一个房间一样，从比喻上说才能拿到糖果，但即便如此，正如你在这次对话中看到的，我最终还是拿起了巧克力裹杏仁。

Like, I have to, like, open a door and walk through it to another room, metaphorically speaking, to get the candy, but still, I end up, as you've seen on this trip, with the, chocolate covered almonds.

真难以置信，蒂姆吃了这么多

It's amazing how much

巧克力裹杏仁。

chocolate covered almonds Tim has consumed.

太可怕了。

So horrifying.

太可怕了。

So horrifying.

这提醒了我们，大家都是凡人。

Well, it's a good reminder we're all human.

甚至对于我们身体来说，蒂姆·费里斯。

Even like for our body, Tim Ferriss.

当然，尤其是对我们身体来说，蒂姆·费里斯。

Definitely even for our especially for our body, Tim Ferriss.

哎呀。

Uh-oh.

一旦他失控，那就真的完全失控了。

Once he goes off the rails, it's it's very very off the rails.

天哪。

Oh, man.

那么，在过去五年里，你还想补充点什么吗？

So anything else that you'd like to add within, the context of the last last five years?

关于父母，我还想再说一点：我真希望我多录一些我爸爸的声音。

And one more thing on the on the parents is one thing I wish is that I had more recordings of my dad.

只是记得他的声音，或者哪怕是一些视频，虽然人们对于录像更拘谨。

Just remembering his voice or even some video, though people are more self conscious about video.

所以，如果你有爱你的人，我觉得这很棒。

So I think it's great if there's people you love.

就做这样的事吧。

Do something like this.

和他们聊一聊。

Have a conversation with them.

是的

Yeah.

录下来。

Record it.

我觉得这是你们俩将来都会珍惜的事情。

I think it's something you'll both probably appreciate.

你一直是我下定决心腾出时间、安排时间与父母进行这次对话的重要推动力。

Well, you've been part of the a big part of the impetus for me to set time aside and schedule time to do this with my parents.

我们本来已经安排好了，但当然，由于新冠疫情和其他各种事情，日程和旅行出现了问题。

We had it scheduled, and then there were some calendar and travel issues, of course, with COVID and everything else going on.

但我计划在未来几个月内完成这件事，我非常期待。

But that is something that I'm, you know, planning on doing in the next few months, and I'm looking forward to it.

我觉得他们所处的阶段不同，我之前也有一些顾虑，但随着我越来越频繁地想到孩子，嗯。

I think they're at different points, I've had various reservations, but as I think more and more about kids Mhmm.

我越来越清楚地意识到，将来拥有这样的记录会是多么宝贵和珍贵。

I think it becomes it dawns on me more and more clearly how valuable or how treasured that could be at some point to have that.

是的。

Yeah.

我们的父母或亲人对我们生活的记忆，有时与我们自己的记忆截然不同。

And just what our parents or loved ones might remember about our life is so different from sometimes what we remember.

是的。

Yeah.

而且有时这会带来非常深刻的启发。

And could be really enlightening sometimes.

是的。

Yeah.

因为记忆是如此不可靠。

Because memory is so fallible.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

非常不可靠。

Super fallible.

因此，看到不同的视角并尝试 triangulate（交叉验证）我们是如何成为现在的自己的，或者哪些事情对我们产生了重大影响，这很有趣。

So it's interesting to see the different perspectives on it and triangulate maybe how we turned out the way we did or things that might have been very influential on us.

那么我有个问题。

So question for you then.

对于我和父母的对话，你有什么建议吗？

Any recommendations for my conversations with my parents?

你建议我问哪些类型的问题？或者从什么角度切入？任何想法都行？

Are there any particular types of questions that you would ask or angles of inquiry or anything at all?

有没有什么禁区？或者有什么特别的想法？

No fly zones, anything that comes to mind?

你知道，这时候不在线下，我们才能搞清楚这个项目到底是什么？

You know, this is where being offline is gonna get us what's the the project?

就像NPR那里，他们采访人们。

It's like on NPR where they interview people.

有个应用可以做这个。

There's an app for it.

StoryCore。

StoryCore.

StoryCore。

StoryCore.

Story，然后是 c o r p s。

Story and then c o r p s.

好的。

Alright.

而且他们甚至还有一个包含问题的应用。

And think they even have an app with questions.

他们的一部分工作是记录美国人的口述历史。

And part of what they do is try to get an oral history of Americans.

全国各地的人，也许包括

People around the country, maybe around

全世界。

the world.

我对这个一无所知。

I don't know anything about this.

但人们可以录制自己的故事，他们有一套非常棒的问题，能引导人们讲述精彩的经历。

But people can record their own, and they have a really great set of questions that kinda walk people through Amazing.

他们的人生历程。

Their life history.

我会说

I would say

那些人就是专家，去看看吧。

those would be the experts, and check it out.

也许有些内容可以成为一个不错的框架。

There might maybe some things that could be a good framework.

我会的。

I will.

顺便说一下，既然我们在讨论录音，我们可以简单提一下我眼前的东西，那就是蒂姆·费里斯企业先进的播客录音室，事实上它非常非常简单。

And for what it's worth, since we're talking about recording, we can just mention briefly what I have right here in front of us, which is the sophisticated grand podcasting studio of Tim Ferriss Enterprises, which is very, very, very simple, it turns out.

自从我们五年前录音以来，只做了一些小小的改动。

There've only been a few minor changes since our recording five years ago.

第一次录音是播客的第61期，而现在我们已经有了将近600期节目。

And the first recording being number 61 of the podcast, and now we have whatever it is close to 600 episodes.

所以在我面前的是Zoom H6录音设备，还有两根XLR电缆。

So we've got the Zoom h six recorder in front of me, and then we have two XLR cables.

一根连接到马特的手持麦克风，另一根连接到我手中的手持麦克风。

One going to handheld mic for Matt, another going to handheld mic in my hand.

我做的一项升级是，当我进行现场录音时，我会使用不同颜色的线缆，默认是黑色的。

One of the upgrades that I made is when I do in person recording, I have two different colored the default is gonna be black cabling.

我改用了彩色线缆。

I get colored cables.

对于视频拍摄来说，这会非常刺眼。

So for video, this would be horrible on the eyes.

但就实际录音而言，这非常方便，因为它让我能轻松看出需要调整哪些音量级别。

But practically for recording, it's great because it makes it very easy for me to see which levels I need to adjust.

哦，太棒了。

Oh, cool.

所以电缆才用不同颜色。

That's why the cables are different colors.

我们用的是黄色和橙色。

So we have yellow and orange.

然后我使用的是松下可充电电池。

And then I have rechargeable batteries, which are Panasonic rechargeable.

BQCC55这个型号应该能帮你找到正确的品牌和型号。

BQCC five five is going to probably take you to the to the proper make and model.

我们还用了一部iPhone，搭配Shure SM88麦克风，通过闪电接口连接，能录出非常清晰的音频。

And then we have an iPhone with a Shure m b eight eight microphone that that attaches to the iPhone, through a lightning port and captures really good audio.

所以这个作为备用方案。

So we have that running as backup.

然后手持麦克风也是舒尔的，我通常使用SM58麦克风。

And then the handheld mics are also Shure, and I usually use s m 58 mics.

这些对于人声来说稍微好一点。

These are slightly better for voice.

如果我能看一下你的麦克风，这是KSM8，它们非常不错。

And if I could just see yours for a second, this is the k s m eight, and, they're very nice.

表现得非常好。

Work really, really well.

就这样了。

And that's it.

所有这些都能放进这个包里，我可以告诉你。

And this all fits into this bag I can tell you.

嘿。

Hey.

虽然有个小包，但所有东西都能放进一个巴尼亚帽里。

Well, there's a small bag, but it all fits into a banya hat.

我有一个俄罗斯桑拿帽，它能为录音设备提供完美的缓冲和隔热效果，其他所有东西都能轻松轻松轻松地放进背包里。

Have a Russian sauna hat that is perfect padding and insulation for the recorder itself, then everything else fits easily easily easily into a backpack.

你大概能把大部分设备塞进一件大外套里。

You could probably fit most of it into a big jacket.

而且你

And you

可以在任何地方录音。

can record anywhere.

你已经在南极洲录了两次，这太了不起了。

You've now recorded two in Antarctica, which is amazing.

确实有点惊人。

It is kind of amazing.

我们曾和伟大的音乐制作人里克·鲁宾在超过200华氏度的环境下录制，尽管他在桑拿里做的更多，因为我当时已经习惯了做

And so we've had 200 plus degrees Fahrenheit with Rick Rubin, the incredible music producer, although he does a lot more in his sauna because I was conditioned for doing

采访。

the interview.

好热。

Hot.

当时热得离谱，我们不得不经常休息，泡冰浴，而且麦克风也热得不行。

It was so hot and hilariously so because we ended up having to take breaks and do ice baths, and the mics got so hot.

这是我们完全没有预算到的一点。

That was the one thing we didn't budget for.

我太担心录音设备会损坏或失灵，以至于没注意到一个简单的事实：当你在桑拿房里把麦克风放在与身体齐平的高度时，它会变得滚烫。

I was so worried about the recorder being damaged or going nonfunctional that I didn't pay attention to the simple fact that when you have the mic at body height in the sauna, it's gonna get ripping hot.

哇。

Wow.

所以放在地上的设备没问题，但麦克风热得我们不得不用毛巾裹起来操作。

So the equivalent was fine on the floor, but the mics got so hot we had to wrap them in towels and do it that way.

我们曾经在超过200华氏度的环境下录制，加上风寒效应，可能达到了

So we've done, like, plus 200 degrees and with wind chill, probably at

他们说气温是零下35度。

I think they were saying it was negative 35 Negative.

是的

Yeah.

今天早上

This morning.

是的

Yeah.

零下35度，可能还更冷一点

Negative 35, maybe even a little bit colder.

零下35度，在戈尔德湾和苏外面时可能还更冷一点

Negative 35, maybe a little bit colder at Gold Bay with Sue, because we were outside.

哦，对啊

Oh, yeah.

没错

That's right.

我们有

We have

这里有一点遮蔽，但那时我们用的是四面敞开的帐篷，寒风呼啸而过，而且桌上结的都是冰，而不是这种方便的折叠桌。

a bit of shelter here, but there we had an open sided tent with wind ripping through and then and a table made of ice instead of this nice fold out table.

你们为什么不用帐篷把门关上呢？

Why didn't you close the door with a tent?

那是工作人员搭建的一个休息区，其中一个帐篷是像棚子一样搭在头顶上的。

It was a lounge that had been created by the staff, and one was, like, up over the top.

哦，我明白了。

Oh, gotcha.

我想我们本可以把它关上的，但我们当时都裹得严严实实的，还挺暖和的。

And I suppose we could have closed it, but we were all wrapped up and reasonably cozy.

我拍了你的照片。

I took a picture of you.

我会分享的。

I'll to share

它。

it.

对。

Right.

没错。

That's right.

是的。

Yes.

你有

You have

一张好照片。

a good photo.

只是

Just

感谢我们的赞助商之一，马上回来继续节目。

a quick thanks to one of our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show.

本集由Wealthfront赞助。

This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront.

你知道吗？如果你在2008年危机后错过了最出色的10个交易日，你就错过了50%的收益？

Did you know if you missed 10 of the best performing days after the two thousand eight crisis, you would have missed out on 50%, 50% of your returns?

不要错过市场中最出色的那些交易日。

Don't miss out on the best days in the market.

坚持投资于长期的自动化投资组合。

Stay invested in a long term automated investment portfolio.

Wealthfront 是自动化投资领域的先驱，有时也被称为机器人顾问，目前为客户提供管理的资产总额达200亿美元。

Wealthfront pioneered the automated investing movement, sometimes referred to as robo advising, and they currently oversee $20,000,000,000 of assets for their clients.

Wealthfront 能帮助你分散投资组合、降低费用并减少税负。

Wealthfront can help you diversify your portfolio, minimize fees, and lower your taxes.

注册只需大约三分钟，之后 Wealthfront 会根据你的风险偏好，为你构建一个全球分散的ETF投资组合，并以极低的成本为你管理。

Takes about three minutes to sign up, and then Wealthfront will build you a globally diversified portfolio of ETFs based on your risk appetite and manage it for you at an incredibly low cost.

Wealthfront 的软件会日复一日地持续监控你的投资组合，你无需操心。

Wealthfront software constantly monitors your portfolio day in and day out so you don't have to.

他们会寻找机会进行再平衡和税务损失收割，以降低你因投资收益而需缴纳的税款。

They look for opportunities to rebalance and tax loss harvest to lower the amount of taxes you pay on your investment gains.

他们最新的服务叫做Autopilot，可以监控任何支票账户中的闲置资金，并将其转入储蓄或投资账户。

Their newest service is called Autopilot, and it can monitor any checking account for excess cash to move into savings or an investment account.

他们确实考虑了很多方面。

They've really thought of a ton.

他们已经满足了大量需求。

They've checked a lot of boxes.

明智的投资不应当像坐过山车一样。

Smart investing should not feel like a roller coaster ride.

让专业人士为你打理。

Let the professionals do the work for you.

前往 wealthfront.com/tim，今天就开通一个Wealthfront投资账户，你将获得前5000美元终身免费管理服务。

Go to wealthfront.com/tim and open a Wealthfront investment account today, and you'll get your first $5,000 managed for free for life.

那就是 wealthfront.com/tim。

That's wealthfront.com/tim.

Wealthfront将为你实现长期自动化投资，今天就前往 wealthfront.com/tim 开始吧。

Wealthfront will automate your investments for the long term, and you can get started today at wealthfront.com/tim.

你能帮我打开那个非尿瓶吗？我想喝点水。

Would you mind opening the non pee bottle so I can have some of the water?

我很高兴他们用了颜色编码。

I'm I'm pleased that they have the color coding.

我打算打开这个酒瓶，然后

And I'm going to open this deck and

从卡萨德拉戈内斯到现在，已经走了很长一段路。

It's come a long way from Casa Dragones.

干杯，由

Cheers, by

顺便说一下。

the way.

是的。

Yeah.

干杯。

Cheers.

让我来处理这些酒。

Let me, let me do that with the booze.

你现在愿意给我多少钱，让我喝一口那尿？

How much would you give me to drink a swig of that urine right now?

你愿意用什么来换？

What would what would you trade?

蒂姆，我太喜欢你了。

I I like you too much, Tim.

我也在想这个问题。

I wonder that too.

你知道吗，我其实——我不确定这是怎么发生的，但结果就是这样，只为你，我亲爱的听众们。

You know, I have actually I have I don't know how this came about, but I ended up this is only for you, my fine listeners.

没有所谓的信息过量。

No such thing as TMI.

我记得某个时候，我不记得那是什么了。

I remember at some point, I don't know what it was.

没有信息过载，就填不满蒂姆。

Can't fill Tim without TMI.

不行，那很棒。

Can't that was good.

那很棒。

That was good.

所以让我暂时放下尿瓶。

So let me take a break from the pee bottle.

我待会儿再讲我喝自己尿的故事。

I'm gonna come back to drinking my own urine story.

马特是日语中‘Okay’这一表达的高手。

Matt is the master of what is known in Japanese as Okay.

就像‘老爸’一样。

So is like pops.

这就像说‘爸爸’，但更加随意。

It's like saying dad, but in a really informal way.

然后就是个笑话。

And then is gag.

结果发现，跨文化来看，父亲们都喜欢双关语和文字游戏。

And as it turns out, cross culturally, dads love puns and wordplay.

所以，如果出现一个蹩脚的双关语——在我15岁在日本寄宿家庭时经常发生——寄宿兄弟就会说，而Matt是最擅长的。

So, like, if a shitty pun comes up, and and often did in my host family when I was 15 in Japan, then the host brother would be like, and Matt is the master.

所以，是的，你没法在不包含TMI的情况下拼出Tim。

So, yeah, you can't spell you can't spell Tim without TMI.

这其实非常好。

That is actually very, very good.

这真的非常好。

That's very, very good.

我确实住在旧金山同一套公寓里。

I did take in that same apartment in San Francisco.

我记得有一次突然决定，你知道吗？

I remember at one point just deciding, you know what?

我觉得我应该尝一下自己的尿。

I think I should sample my own urine.

为什么要这么做，我已经不记得了。

For what reason, I can't recall.

我真的这么做了，而你也看到我喝了多少水。

And I did, and you've seen how much water I consume.

所以实际上完全没问题。

So it was actually totally fine.

它真的是完全没问题。

It was it was it was totally fine.

它并没有过量含有维生素B之类的会影响味道的成分，我猜。

It wasn't oversaturated with b vitamins or anything that will affect the taste, suspect.

虽然我没尝过几次，但我要说，我从不把喝尿当成日常习惯，也不推荐这么做。

Not that I've had many samplings, but, I will say, I don't make a regular practice drinking my urine nor do I recommend it.

这并非医疗建议。

This is not medical advice.

这个故事本身其实挺蠢的。

It's actually pretty stupid, as a story to begin with.

但是但是

But But

你做了，所以别人不用做。

you did it so others don't have to.

我做了，所以别人不用做。

I did it so others don't have to.

是的。

Yeah.

这并不是我喝过最美味的东西。

It wasn't the most delicious thing I've ever had.

好吧。

Alright.

所以让我来，你希望我抽一张牌，还是你来抽？

So let me let me offer you you want me to choose a card or do you wanna choose a card?

好吧。

Alright.

去吧。

Go for it.

好吧。

Alright.

我们来看看。

So let's see.

你随时可以拒绝。

And you can always refuse.

而且会

And would

你说你在南极的录音很激烈吗？

you say your recordings in Antarctica have been intense?

激烈。

Intense.

这是另一个双关语吗？

Is that another pun?

哦，强烈。

Oh, intense.

天哪。

Oh my god.

那太糟糕了。

That was so bad.

对不起。

Sorry.

那很棒。

That was good.

那很棒。

That was good.

那很棒。

That was good.

你不可能经历过一千次。

You can't have had a thousand.

强烈。

Intense.

你懂的？

You know?

一个真实的事实，正如我的朋友凯利·斯塔雷特常说的那样。

True fact, as my friend Kelly Starrett likes to say.

真实的事实。

True fact.

公平地说，这是一个真实的事实。

True fact, in fairness.

来一个。

Here's one.

你最想克服的恐惧是什么？

What is one fear you would like to conquer?

你打算回答同一个问题吗？

You're gonna answer the same one?

你可以，或者你可以选另一个。

I can or you could choose another one.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得如果我们俩都回答，会挺有趣的。

I think that'd be it'd be fun if we both answer it.

是的。

Yeah.

我们来吧。

Let's do it.

因为也许我们会彼此启发，以不同的方式看待这个问题。

Because maybe we'll inspire a different way of thinking about it in each other.

好。

Great.

你知道吗，我对身体问题、锻炼之类的一直有些心结。

You know, I have a hang up around body issues and exercise and stuff.

而且在过去六个月里，这种感觉变得更强烈了。

And it kinda got bigger in, like, the past six months.

我现在37岁了，哦。

And as I'm 37 now Oh.

不是

Not the

老男人，年轻年龄的老。

Old man, young age old.

我们第一次听说穆伦韦格。

We first heard Mullenweg.

而且，是的，我觉得这是一种我想克服的恐惧，因为它完全不讲道理。

And, yeah, I think that's a fear I like to conquer because it's totally irrational.

这种恐惧具体是什么？

What is the fear exactly?

我不知道该怎么表达，但就是有一种感觉，我说不清楚，因为这是一种恐惧。

I don't know how to articulate it, but there's something where I don't know how to articulate it because it's it's a fear.

这并不理性。

It's not it's not rational.

这不是我能用语言描述出来的东西。

It's not something I would put into words.

我的意思是，确实有

Well, mean, there

有很多

are there are a lot

很多恐惧是合理的。

of fears that are rational.

对吧？

Right?

所以，仅仅因为是恐惧，并不意味着它就一定是非理性的。

So just because it's a fear doesn't automatically make it irrational.

我觉得这可能是不合理的。

I think this is probably irrational.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧。

Alright.

对。

Yeah.

有些东西就像是

Something around It's like

一种不安全感。

an insecurity.

我不会让你

I'm not gonna let you

走。

go.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这是关于外貌的不安全感吗？

So is it an insecurity around appearance?

我觉得是某种东西，是的。

I think it's something yeah.

关于某件事，对不起。

Something about, I'm sorry.

我不知道该怎么

I don't know how to

深入下去。

go deeper.

我们可以，这正是我应该多花点力气或者帮忙出力的地方。

We can this is this is where I should do do some heavy lifting or help do some heavy lifting.

你能举个例子，说明它什么时候会表现出来吗？

What would be an example of a time when it shows up for you?

我最近对锻炼的抗拒感越来越强，这种抗拒表现为一种恐惧——我能想出很多借口，比如我会再次受伤，或者会伤到膝盖，或者现在手腕状态不好，不该做这些运动，诸如此类的理由。

The resistance I feel around sort of exercise that's been growing, I would say, where it's it shows up like a fear in that I can think of so many excuses why, including, like, I'm gonna injure myself again or I'm gonna hurt my knee or my wrists are bad right now, so I shouldn't be doing this, or like things like that.

但这些其实都只是借口而已。

But which really just add up to be a bunch of excuses.

你觉得这种抗拒是在保护你免受什么？

What do you think that is protecting you from?

如果你没有这些顾虑，因为你看起来是个聪明人。

Like, if you did not have because it seems like that you're a smart guy.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以很可能，你的潜意识在试图保护你，避免你深入某种状态，当然，我不建议你去深入像IFS或迪克·施瓦茨那样的理论，但你的潜意识确实可能在保护你免受某种伤害。

So there's probably some part of you not to, like, go too far into, like, IFS Dick Schwartz type stuff, but, like, your subconscious is trying to protect you from something, potentially.

它到底是在保护你免受什么？

Like, what is it protecting you from?

你觉得它是在保护你免受什么？

What do you think it is?