#788：纳瓦尔·拉维坎特与亚伦·斯图普尔——如何养育一个自主的孩子：最大化自由的育儿方式

他们很快乐，很健康，相当聪明，而且在同龄人中表现得不错。

They're happy, they're healthy, they're pretty intelligent, and they seem to do well relative to their peers.

他们似乎比普通孩子少一些心理负担，而且拥有更多的自由。

They seem to have less hang ups than I think the average kid would, and they have a lot more freedom.

但好消息是，你不必非得全盘接受或完全否定。

But the good news is you don't have to do this all or nothing.

我说全或无是为了引起争议，因为亚伦是坚定的信徒，他完全支持这一理念。

I said all or nothing to be provocative because Aaron's a believer, he's all the way.

是的。

Yeah.

但你可以从一个方面开始，比如，亚伦，你能举个例子说明可以从哪里入手吗？

But you can start in one area, and so like, what's an example of an area where you could start, Aaron?

真相的美妙之处在于，你不必依赖别人的研究所提供的证据，因为你知道，如今做研究的人，我们都知道他们的研究有多不可靠，对吧？

Like, the beauty of truth is you don't have to rely on somebody's study because, you know, people who do studies these days, we know how corrupted they are, right?

所以我们知道，有一群人总是在推特上出现，动不动就要求你提供来源，仿佛不这么做就能驳倒你的观点。

So we know there's a whole class of people who show up on Twitter and say source, you know, as if that's killing your argument.

你看，哈佛并没有认可这一点。

Like, you don't know, Harvard didn't bless this.

哈佛自己都要求在哈佛强制接受教育，所以我不会听他们的。

Well, Harvard wants mandatory education at Harvard, so I can't listen to them.

他们想灌输我的孩子。

They want to indoctrinate my child.

那我反过来问你一个问题，纳瓦尔，因为你早先提到你有30%到50%是融入其中的。

So Let me turn around the question on you, Naval, just for a second, because you mentioned early on you're 30 to 50% incorporated.

那你最先融入的是哪一部分？

So what did you incorporate first?

我基本上大幅退回来了，好吧，我退回来的是：我对孩子从来不算专制，如果他们在我身边想吃垃圾食品，我就直接给他们，然后他们就会离开房间，所以我并不太负责。

I basically retreated heavily back, okay, and what I retreated on was, first, I'm not very authoritarian with the kids, I never have been, so if they're around me and they want to eat junk food, I just hand them the junk food and they'll leave the room, so I'm not that responsible.

那是妈妈的问题。

That's mom's problem.

是的，妈妈和其他看护者可能会更严格一些，但我通常不会这样，尤其是在食物方面，特别是当我清楚自己在饮食上有多糟糕的时候。

Yeah, so mom and other caretakers might be more restrictive, but I tend not to be, especially around food, especially when I know what a bad job I personally do with food.

我对屏幕时间也没有那么严格限制。

I'm also not that restricted with screen time.

我基本上就是，你知道的，晚上六点之后，他们可以无限制地使用屏幕，而且我也不强迫他们去上学。

I basically just, you know, after 6PM, they get unlimited screen time, and I don't force them to go to school.

他们算是混合了在家上学和非学校教育。

They're a combination of homeschooled and unschooled.

我说我比较严格的地方是，如果他们打架、互相打人，我可能会频繁介入。

Where I would say I am restrictive is I probably interfere a lot if they're, like, fighting, if they're hitting at each other.

我在这方面还挺催促的，比如‘快点，快点，赶紧的，我们迟到了，上车吧’，这类事情。

I'm kind of pushy about, like, let's go, let's go, let's hurry up, you know, we're late, get in the car, that kind of thing.

毫无疑问，我最在意的一点是，我觉得孩子们小时候吃不好也没关系。

Definitely the one place where I have a big bugaboo, I think they can get over eating badly as kids.

年轻的身体非常有韧性，学会健康饮食需要一辈子的时间，我认为他们甚至能克服社交和情绪困扰、人际冲突，这些都需要他们自己去应对和解决。

Young bodies are very resilient, and it takes a lifetime to figure out how to eat well, and I think they can get over even socialization and emotional hangups and interpersonal conflict, all of that stuff has to be handled on its own, and they have to figure it out.

我可能频繁干预的两个地方之一，就是我坚持要求他们学数学和阅读，你得做你的数学题，你得读你的书。

The two places where I probably interfere a lot is one is I insist on math and reading, like you got to do your math and you got to do your reading.

如果你完成了数学和阅读，那你就是一个自由的人。

If you do your math and reading, then you're a free individual.

在此之前，你是个小奴隶，不能做你想做的事，对吧？

Until then, you're a little slave and you don't get to do what you want, right?

所以在这一点上，我非常严格。

So I'm pretty tough there.

另一个情况是，如果他们中的一个打另一个，对我来说这就是一条不能逾越的底线，我往往会情绪化并介入。

The other one is if one of them is hitting the other, then, you know, that's to me is a boundary that you don't cross, and I tend to get emotional and tend to interfere.

所以这大概是我最严格的两个方面，但我想说，我们的孩子更像野生动物，而不是被好好教养的孩子，不过我要说，我遇到的大多数当今的孩子，那些所谓正常养育的孩子，我一点都不想和他们交换位置。

So those are probably the two places where I'm most restrictive, but I would say that, you know, our kids are closer to wild animals than properly raised children, but I will say I think most kids these days that I run into, most of their friends who are kind of quote unquote normally raised, I wouldn't trade places.

我们的家庭拥有更多的自由。

Our family has a lot more freedom.

我们和孩子相处得非常好。

We get along great with our kids.

他们非常聪明。

They're very intelligent.

他们非常独立。

They're very independent.

他们非常能干，在我看来，他们的适应能力不逊于甚至优于同龄人。

They're very capable, and they seem to me as well or better adjusted than any of their peers.

并不是要贬低他们的同龄人，但我注意到，他们的所有同龄人都有一种向成年人寻求关注并违反规则的方式，这可能表现为我过敏了、我吐了、我情绪崩溃了等等，这些都是为了控制通常难以掌控的成年人的注意力行为，而我们的孩子似乎少有这种表现。

Not to put their peers down, but I have noticed that all of their peers tend to have a way of getting attention from adults and violating the rules, and that could be anything from I'm having allergic reaction to I threw up to I'm having a meltdown to whatever, and these are all attention seeking behavior to control adults who are normally not controllable, and our kids seem to have a lot less of that.

也许这仅仅是个人经历。

Maybe it's just anecdotal.

是的。

Yeah.

我会说同样的话。

I would say the same thing.

我们的孩子并不野蛮。

My our kids are not wild.

事实上，他们会听我们的话去做事。

In fact, they do what we ask them to do.

他们非常配合。

They're very responsive.

比如，当我妻子让他们做某事时，他们不会立刻产生防御心理。

Like, when my wife asks them to do something, they don't have, a knee jerk defensiveness.

他们不会把我们当成对手或守门人来耍手段。

They're not trying to game us as adversaries or gatekeepers.

这是一种非常真诚的互动。

It's a very authentic interaction.

而且他们非常有礼貌。

And they're very polite.

他们彼此之间会说‘请’和‘谢谢’。

They say, please and thank you to each other.

你知道，他们经常发生摩擦，但我们几乎不用介入，他们自己就明白了彼此的界限。

You know, they bang up against each other so frequently without us trying to intervene that they understand each other's boundaries.

他们非常有责任心。

They're very conscientious.

很明显，样本量很小，而且你知道，还有许多其他可能的原因导致这种情况。

Obviously, it's a small sample size, and, you know, there's plenty of other reasons why that might be the case.

但我认为，很多人反对取消规则，认为这是不可能的。

But I would say a lot of people object to removing rules and say that it's impossible.

孩子肯定会崩溃。

A kid will absolutely fall apart.

但有几个孩子没有崩溃的例子，我认为这确实证明了这是可能的。

And a few examples of kids not falling apart, I think, does demonstrate that it's possible.

取消规则可能会导致一种

It's possible that removing rules can result in a

非常

very

有序、有条理的，而且是的，我会说，一种礼貌的守规行为。

orderly, structured, and, yeah, I would say, polite kind of rule following.

我经常说，你知道，我宁愿我的孩子不听话、自由、没受过教育，也不愿他们受过教育却顺从，对吧？

I often say, you know, that I would rather that my kids be disobedient and free and uneducated than that they're educated and obedient, right?

因为你可以随时自学，而我们这些懂点东西的人，大多都是随着时间推移成为自学成才的，学习永远是一个移动的目标，但独立思考、独立精神，一旦失去就再也找不回来了。

Because you can always educate yourself, and most of us who know anything have become self learners over time, and learning is always moving target, but that independent thinking, that independent streak, you can't get back.

我认识的每一个在人生中取得成功的人，都有很强的独立精神。

Everyone I know who is successful in life has a strong independent streak.

没有例外。

No exceptions.

有个问题，亚伦。

Question, Aaron.

你提到遵守规则，但这也是一种最大化自由的育儿理念。

You said rule following, but this is also a freedom maximizing parenting philosophy.

你还提到，如果你妻子提出要求，孩子们通常会——用个不太准确的说法——配合。

You you also mentioned that if your wife asks for something, the kids will often, for lack of a better terms, comply.

那么，这种教育是通过以身作则，而不是靠规则来实现的吗？

So is the teaching then coming from modeling rather than rules?

所以他们才会说‘请’和‘谢谢’。

That's why they say please and thank you.

这不是一个请求。

It's not a request.

这是一种你所展示的行为，因此他们跟着做；还是你在解释这些行为的重要性，因此他们最终内化了这些行为？

It's something that you are demonstrating and therefore they're following, or are you explaining the importance of those things and therefore they end up adopting those behaviors?

我们会在可能的时候解释，但对于小孩子来说，用语言解释几乎不起作用。

We explain when we can, but with little kids, explaining in words rarely works.

所以我认为一个有用的区分是，并非所有规则都是坏的。

And so I think a a helpful distinction is it's not that all rules are bad.

对吧？

Right?

象棋的规则、棒球的规则都很好。

The rules of chess, the rules of baseball are great.

规则的可贵之处在于你可以选择不遵守，而成年人几乎可以退出任何一套规则。

What's great about rules is when you can opt out of them, and adults can opt out of almost any set of rules.

成年人无法退出的规则被称为法律，而法律与规则非常不同。

Rules that adults can't opt out of are called laws, and laws are very different from rules.

你也可以选择不遵守这些。

You can opt out of those too.

只是会有严重的后果。

They're just severe consequences.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Right.

或者你可以

Or you

你甚至可以待在家里。

can even you can stay home.

对吧？

Right?

就像家是一个人的城堡。

Like a man's house is his castle.

比如，你可以避开交通法规，不开车就行了。

Like, you can avoid the laws of the road, the rules of the road, and just not drive a car.

你可以骑自行车或步行，但一个普通孩子却无法逃避刷牙这样的规则。

You can ride a bike and walk and but a kid, a typical kid cannot escape, cannot opt out of the rule of brushing their teeth, for example.

对吧？

Right?

到了刷牙时间，妈妈或爸爸就会去找他们，把他们抓回来，强迫他们刷牙。

When teeth brushing time comes around, mom or dad will hunt them down, find them, and make them brush their teeth.

所以这和国际象棋的规则不一样，国际象棋的规则是，如果你想玩，可以用不同的棋子。

So that's not really a rule in the same sense of the rules of chess, where if you wanna say, you know, let's play with different pieces.

我们可以改变棋子的走法。

Let's change the way the pieces move.

对吧？

Right?

你可以选择采纳这些规则，或者干脆说：我不下象棋了。

You can you can adopt those rules or say, don't wanna play chess.

我要去做点别的事了。

I'm gonna go do something else.

规则很棒，我实际上非常支持规则。

So rules are great and actually a major a huge fan of rules.

事实上，我如此推崇规则，以至于我不想用这种虚假或做作的规则来污染真正的规则，这些根本算不上法律。

In fact, I'm such a fan of rules that I don't wanna contaminate rules with this kind of fake or phony set of rules, which are really they're not even laws.

对吧？

Right?

它们是武断的、专制的对儿童生活的强加。

They are arbitrary, autocratic impositions on a child's life.

我认为强迫孩子刷牙是一种灾难。

Forcing a kid to brush their teeth, I think, is a disaster.

人们通常认为必须强迫孩子遵守规则。

People usually think that you have to force rules on kids.

对吧？

Right?

这是必要的恶。

It's a necessary evil.

你只能这么做。

You just have to.

没人想当苛刻的人，但说到底，你还是得让他们刷牙，因为孩子不懂蛀牙这回事。

Nobody wants to be a hard ass, but, you know, when push comes to shove, they just have to brush their teeth because kids don't know about cavities.

三岁的孩子根本理解不了这个概念。

A three year old doesn't understand the concept.

为了他们好，对吧？如果他们长大后长了蛀牙，说‘爸爸，你没让我刷牙，现在我的牙齿糟透了’，他们会怪我的。

And for their own good, right, they would be upset with me later in life if they have cavities, and they said, dad, you didn't make me brush my teeth, and now I've got awful teeth.

你知道，他们有理由、完全有理由对我感到不满。

You know, they would be rightfully, justifiably upset with me.

那么在这种情况下，你该怎么办？

And so what do you do in that circumstance?

通常的想法是，这毕竟是个必要的恶。

The typical thinking is that, well, it's a necessary evil.

你只能让他们刷牙。

You just have to make them brush their teeth.

但事实上，这涉及到认识论问题：一个不刷牙的孩子，这确实是个问题。

But the truth is, and this is getting to the epistemology, is that a kid that's not brushing their teeth, really, that's a problem.

那么问题来了，有没有什么方法可以解决这个问题，而不需要我强行要求他们遵守规则？

And the question is, are there ways to solve this problem that don't involve me forcing the rule on them?

对于任何问题，都有多种解决方案，刷牙就是一个很好的例子。

And with any problem, there's multiple solutions, and brushing teeth is a great example.

我和我妻子的做法是，尝试探索并理解这个问题的本质。

What my wife and I do is we try to explore and understand what is the nature of this problem.

所以，也许孩子不愿意刷牙是因为他们不喜欢牙膏的味道，或者不喜欢牙刷的触感，又或者我和我妻子会刷完牙后互相吹口气，假装陶醉于彼此口气的清新。

And so maybe the kid isn't brushing their teeth because they don't like the taste of the toothpaste, or they don't like the feel of the toothbrush, or my wife and I'll brush our teeth and blow our breath in each other's face and kind of swoon at how, you know, how good our breath smells afterward.

然后他们就会也想这么做。

And then they they wanna do that.

他们想要拥有清新的口气。

They wanna have good smelling breath.

他们想玩闻呼吸的游戏。

They wanna play the breath smelling game.

我们会带他们去商店，去牙膏货架让他们挑选，比如《汪汪队》牙膏或者独角兽牙膏，他们还可以自己选牙刷。

We'll take them to the store, and we go to the toothpaste aisle and let them pick out, you know, the Paw Patrol toothpaste and the unicorn toothpaste, and they get their own toothbrush.

有很多不同的方法。

Like, there are so many different things.

和你一起。

With you.

听起来，有这么多事情，这就变成了一件特别有趣的事。

That sounds There's there's so and then that becomes a whole fun thing.

比如，嘿，我们去商店吧，你来负责，我们去牙膏货架，你挑所有你需要的东西。

Like, hey, let's go to the store, and you're gonna be in charge, and let's go to the toothpaste aisle, and and you pick out all your stuff.

今天真是太棒了。

And and today is amazing.

对吧？

Right?

漱口水有各种不同的口味。

There's, like, different flavors of mouthwash.

什么都有。

There's everything.

所以你会探索这些解决方案的多样性，永远不知道什么时候能找到合适的。

So you explore the space of these solutions, and you never know when you can find one.

我能跟你分享一些关于这个的有趣个人经历吗？

Can I give you my my own anecdotes on this that are funny?

好。

Yeah.

对于我大儿子，我实际上向他解释了疾病的细菌理论。

Go for So with my older son, I actually managed to explain to him the germ theory of disease.

我们看了关于小细菌吃东西的YouTube视频，我让他相信，如果不刷牙，细菌就会吃掉他的牙齿，所以他现在会刷牙。

We watched YouTube videos on little germs eating things, and I convinced him, like, germs are gonna eat his teeth if he doesn't brush them, so he brushes them.

我女儿还很小，她总是看到我每天都在用牙线。

My daughter, she's really young, she just sees me flossing all the time.

她喜欢玩牙线。

She loves playing with floss.

就这么简单。

It's that simple.

所以每个人都有自己解决问题的方式。

So, each one has their own mechanism how to figure it out.

我中间的儿子，你知道的，他喜欢那种蜘蛛侠牙刷，所以他特别喜欢用那款牙刷来玩。

My middle son, you know, he likes the, I think it's a Spider Man toothbrush, so it's like a very particular toothbrush he likes, so he plays with that.

所以每个人都有不同的解决方法，但这需要时间、创造力和解决问题的能力，而且你不可能随时得到你想要的完美方案。

So there's a different solution for each one, but it takes time, it takes creativity, it takes problem solving, and you can't get exactly what you want when you want it.

另外，还需要他们对你敞开心扉，纳瓦尔。

Well, also takes another thing is for them to be open to you, Naval.

对吧？

Right?

如果你是个死板的规则执行者，就会觉得，天哪。

If you are a rule enforcer, you know, keep like, oh, shit.

该刷牙了。

It's tooth brushing time.

对吧？

Right?

我最不想做的就是在刷牙时间跟爸爸较劲。

Last thing I wanna do is deal with dad at tooth brushing time.

而如果你从来都不是那个 enforcing 的人，孩子就会更倾向于说：‘你拿牙线在干嘛？’

Whereas if you're never that enforcer, then the kid is much more like, oh, what are you doing with the floss?

那是哪种牙膏？

What kind of toothpaste is that?

当你不是那个武断的规则执行者时，孩子反而更愿意模仿和跟随你的行为。

They're much more interested in emulating and following the modeling when you are not this arbitrary enforcer.

我有一个

I have a

我给自己定了一条规矩，你知道，我偶尔会训斥我的孩子，虽然我知道你从不训斥孩子，但我确实偶尔会训斥他们。

rule for myself, which, you know, I I do bust my kids occasionally, which I know you don't bust your kids, but I do occasionally bust my kids.

但如果他们带着自己无意中做错、但其实不对的事情来找我，我从不责备他们，因为我不想让他们产生‘别去找爸爸’这种感觉。

But if they come to me with something that they did innocently that they didn't think was wrong but is wrong, I never bust them, right, because I don't want to create that feeling in them like don't go to dad.

所以至少我自己还没完全开悟，但我确实在朝着正确的方向前进。

So at least I'm not fully enlightened here, but I'm, you know, headed in the direction.

但我们来聊聊一些更难的案例吧。

But let's go to some of the harder ones.

我们来谈谈饮食或者屏幕时间这类问题。

Let's talk about, like, eating or screen time.

这些才是真正的难题。

Those are the tough ones.

简单感谢一下我们的赞助商，马上回来继续节目。

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ShipStation's industry leading scalable features help you deliver a better customer experience by ensuring accuracy, faster shipments, and automated tracking updates.

而且，UPS和USPS运费最高可享88%折扣，FedEx运费最高可享90%折扣，这是最经济实惠的发货方式。

And with up to 88% off UPS and USPS rates and up to 90% off FedEx rates, it's the most affordable way to ship.

所以，让混乱平静下来。

So calm the chaos.

切换到 ShipStation。

Switch to ShipStation.

前往 shipstation.com/tim 开始免费试用。

Start a free trial at shipstation.com/tim.

就是 shipstation.com/tim。

That's shipstation.com/tim.

我可以Actually，我要不要放大一点？

Can I actually I'm gonna go mezzo zoom in?

我们会说到这些，但我想先提一下。

We're gonna get to those, but I wanna just mention.

所以，亚伦，这是我第一次和你们俩讨论这种育儿方式。

So, Aaron, this is my first time having this conversation with either of you about this approach to parenting.

我喜欢这一点，因为它对问题进行了审视。

And what I like about it is that there's an examination of the problem.

对吧？

Right?

我们不会直接跳到解决方案，因为问题往往在于我们最初看待问题的方式。

We're not jumping to solutions because often the problem is the way we're looking at the problem in the first place.

但我想象，对许多听众来说，他们会想：好吧。

But I imagine for a lot of people listening, they're like, okay.

所以你是为每个孩子量身定制了一套专属的、像塞维利亚街那样的定制解决方案。

So you have a bespoke, like, Seville Row tailored solution to every kid.

这听起来简直让人精疲力尽——如果孩子拒绝戴手套，而外面冷得要命，你就直接让他戴上手套，因为我说了要戴。

That sounds fucking exhausting when if the kid's refusing to wear gloves and it's freezing outside, just put on your fucking gloves because I tell you to put them on.

而且，作为 segue，我想回到‘创意胜于强制’这个话题。

And I'm also, I guess, as a segue from that, coming back to this creativity over coercion.

当我想到创意时，我实际上想到的是约束的力量，而不是完全没有约束。

And when I think of creativity, I actually think of the power of constraints, not a complete lack of constraints.

这是我个人的经历，也是我采访的许多人的共同经历。

That's my personal experience and the experience of a lot of people I interview.

那么，你如何调和这些观点，或者怎么看待这些问题？

So how do you reconcile these things or think about any of those?

好的。

Alright.

我先说手套的事，再说约束的问题。

Let me do the gloves first and then the constraints second.

是的。

Yes.

这需要很多工作。

It's a lot of work.

孩子想出去玩，但不愿意戴手套。

The kid wants to go outside and doesn't wanna wear their mittens.

对吧？

Right?

你会遇到孩子因为手冷而崩溃，一个看似完全不讲理的三岁孩子尖叫着，即使手冷也不肯戴手套。

And you're gonna be dealing with a kid melting down because their hands are cold and, you know, a totally irrational seeming three year old screaming, but also won't put the mittens on even when their hands are cold.

这简直是个噩梦。

And that's a nightmare.

我可不是在假装这不是一场噩梦。

I'm not pretending that that's not a a nightmare.

但前期的投入在长远来看是值得的，因为一旦孩子明白了手套的作用，就不会再困惑为什么妈妈总要我戴手套。

But the investment up front pays off in the long run because once a kid understands what mittens are for and has no confusion about mittens are because mom makes me put the mittens on.

对吧？

Right?

手套是因为冷手太难受了，所以我愿意戴手套。

Mittens are because cold hands sucks, and I'll wear my mittens.

一旦孩子明白了这一点，戴手套的问题就解决了，你再也不用反复唠叨他们穿衣打扮的事。

Once a kid understands that, the mitten problem's solved, and you never have to lecture them about getting ready and what they wear.

而且这种情况会一遍又一遍地重复发生。

And it's that over and over and over again.

你知道，第一次做这些事确实更费劲。

You know, the first time's through, it is more work.

这毫无疑问。

There's no question about it.

探索这个问题，试图理解我女儿刷牙时的样子，就像‘砰’一下搞定。

Exploring the problem, trying to understand My daughter brushes her teeth like boom.

我儿子也是。

My son too.

基本上，三个大孩子都会自己刷牙了。

Pretty much the three older kids brush their teeth just on their own.

一旦孩子自己理解了问题的本质，这个问题就一辈子都解决了。

It's it's once a problem gets solved to the kid's own understanding, it's solved for the rest of their life.

这现在也成了你可以不断拓展的解释框架。

It's also now part of an explanatory framework that you can build upon.

规则之间是互不关联的。

Rules don't connect to each other.

规则之间唯一能产生联系的方式，就是爸爸妈妈说‘应该这样’，而知识则是一个理解的体系。

The only way rules connect to each other is dad or mom say so, whereas knowledge, it's a framework of understanding.

所以，一旦你理解了刷牙是因为细菌，你自然也会明白为什么该洗澡、为什么该用肥皂、为什么该换内裤，等等。

So once you understand you're brushing your teeth because of germs, then you also understand why you should shower and why you should use soap and why you should change your underwear and all this.

你为什么要吃药？

Why you take medicine?

你为什么要遮住——说得对。

Why you cover Exactly.

当你捂住嘴巴时，这一切都是相互关联的。

Your mouth when you It all builds.

它们都是相互联系的。

They all go together.

所以，越早教会孩子这种知识，就越好。

It's, and so the sooner you can teach your kids that knowledge, the better.

但我觉得，和亚伦讨论的话，确实存在一个年龄，在这个年龄之前，孩子就是无法理解。

But there's an age, I would argue with Aaron, like, there's a certain age in which it just doesn't register.

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

因为另一部分在于，你是引导者。

Because the other part of it is that you are the guide.

对吧？

Right?

爸爸是那个帮助我的人。

Dad is someone who helps me.

爸爸从来不是那种找我麻烦的人。

Dad is never someone who busts my balls.

爸爸从来不是对手。

Dad is never an adversary.

爸爸始终是这个知识积累过程中的引导者和参与者。

Dad is always a guide and a participant in this knowledge accumulation process.

他帮助我获得知识，让我能够解决问题，避免生病、晒伤或被虫子叮咬。

And he helps give me the knowledge that helps me solve my problems and avoid getting sick or avoid getting a sunburn or bug bites.

知识本身不仅层层积累，你与父母的关系也会变得更加牢固。

It not only builds on itself, the knowledge itself, but the relationship with your parents gets stronger.

这就是为什么我说，当我们要求孩子做某事时，他们会信任我们。

And that's why I'm saying, you know, when we ask our kids to do something, they trust us.

他们知道我们是真心为他们着想，这不仅仅是因为我们告诉他们，而是因为他们亲眼看到并亲身体验到了。

They know that we have their best interests at heart, not simply because we tell them, but because they they see it and experience it.

因此，你拥有一个值得信赖的向导，你逐渐明白，我们都在共同参与一项事业——探索生活、避免痛苦、追求兴趣、寻找快乐并培养热情。

So you have a trusted guide who you kind of understand that we're all in this project together of, like, figuring out life and avoiding suffering and pursuing interests and pursuing joy and developing passions.

有一本旧书叫《襁褓中的科学家》。

There was an old book called The Scientist in the Crib.

书名太棒了，以至于我觉得这本书很受欢迎，因为每个人都希望把自己的孩子看作一个小科学家，尽管他们实际上把孩子当成襁褓里的囚犯来对待，对吧？

The title is so good that I think the book is very popular because everyone wants to view their child as a little scientist, even though they treat them like the convict in the crib, right?

就像，你必须完全按照我说的去做，但我认为这其中存在一种矛盾。

Like, you can do exactly what I say when I tell you to, but I think that there's a struggle.

人们说，我不想成为孩子的最好的朋友。

People say, I don't want to be my kid's best friend.

他们有自己的朋友。

They have friends.

我必须当一个父母。

I have to be a parent.

然后他们就会思考，当父母到底意味着什么？

And then they kind of think through, well, what does that mean to be a parent?

事实上，大多数人小时候都更希望有更多独立性，那为什么不试着给你的孩子更多自由，并多做解释呢？

And the reality is, think most people would have preferred more independence when they were kids, so why not start trying to give it to your kids and doing the explanation?

但解释是很困难的。

But the explanations are hard.

这需要大量的前期投入。

It takes a lot of upfront work.

我问你一个问题，纳瓦尔。

Let me ask you this, Naval.

你觉得人们回过头来看，比如强迫与非强迫，几乎不可能存在一个情境，让大多数人觉得强迫有正面意义。

Do you think people in retrospect well, instance, like, coercion versus non coercion, there isn't really a universe in which most people would find a positive connotation with coercion.

当然。

Sure.

是的

Yeah.

所以如果有人说功能性医学，他们就不想去找一个非功能性的医生。

So if someone says functional medicine, they don't wanna go to a nonfunctional doctor.

对吧？

Right?

这有点像，与其说是个语义陷阱，不如说你根本无法合理地持相反立场。

It's like, well, it's kind of a it's a bit of a not a semantic trick, but you can't really reasonably take the opposite position.

所以我很好奇，你认为那些说‘我希望小时候能有更多自由’的人，他们的回忆是否足够全面和准确，足以做出这样的判断？

So I'm wondering, do you think that most people who say, wish I had more freedom when I was a kid, are recalling completely enough or accurately enough to make that judgment?

有些情况下，你可以提出相反的观点。

There are certain things where you can argue the opposite.

所以我会暂时站在对立面，来挑战艾伦的哲学。

So I'll take the other side, you know, for a moment to challenge Aaron's philosophy.

我认为大脑的可塑性是存在的。

I think brain plasticity is a thing.

比如，如果你小时候没学好数学、音乐或语言，长大后学起来就会难得多，因为这些是基础。

Like, if you don't learn your math or your music or your languages when you're young, it's a lot harder to learn than when you're older, and they're building blocks.

所以，我的孩子可能对某些物理现象感兴趣，比如‘为什么阳光是这样照射的？’

So, you know, my kid may be interested in some physics thing like, oh, why is the sunlight going this way?

或者‘为什么是四分之一月相，而不是半月相？’

Or why is it a quarter moon instead of a half moon?

我开始试着解释，但如果他因为跳过了这些内容而缺乏几何或数学基础，那在我还没让他产生兴趣之前，他就已经失去耐心了。

And started trying to explain it, but if he doesn't have the basics in geometry or math because he skipped all of that, then he'll lose interest before I can get him interested enough to figure out the math.

如果你到19岁才开始学基础数学，那已经太晚了，会非常困难。

If you're trying to figure out basic math when you're 19, it's pretty late in the game, like you're going have a hard time.

阅读和识字也是同样的道理。

Same thing with literacy and reading.

如果你从未学会如何组合词语、阅读，那么当你终于产生兴趣，我递给你一本书时，你却读不了，也就很难从零开始爬这个陡坡了。

If you never learn how to put words together and read, then when you finally are interested and I point you to the book, you can't read it, and you're not going to climb that hill from zero to figure it out.

所以我在这一点上有点纠结。

So I'm kind of stuck in that one.

我认为识字能力、数学能力和计算机素养是我希望孩子们掌握的三大核心能力，这三者对我来说是基础性的基石，其他所有东西他们都可以根据自己的兴趣和时间去学习。

I think I would call it literacy, numeracy, and computer literacy are the three things that I really want my kids to have, and and those three to me are foundational building blocks, and everything else they can learn on their own interests and in their own time.

所以，亚伦，你有没有像纳瓦尔提到的那种不可妥协的底线？这些基础性构建块，是你在‘自主儿童’理念之外特别保留的吗？

So, Aaron, if do you are there any, nonnegotiables like Naval's that he mentioned perhaps, these fundamental building blocks that you have reserved outside the scope of the Sovereign Child?

顺便说一下，这在生理上也有对应的原理。

And by the way, there's a physical equivalence too.

我认为人们最容易忽视的有三点，如果我可以这么说的话——虽然还有很多，但比如大脑的可塑性，习惯，你知道，习惯是非常重要的；还有社交信号，比如不打人、不打架、懂得如何社交；还有身体的可塑性，我小时候饮食不健康，所以这些坏习惯一直跟着我，我的身体永远记得我给它造成的伤害。

So I think the three that people fall down on, if I may, there's actually a lot, but there's, brain plasticity around learning, there's habits, you know, habits are a big thing, there's social cues around not hitting people or getting to fights and knowing how to socialize, There's body plasticity, you know, I ate poorly when I was a kid, so therefore those bad habits follow me forever and my body remembers all the damage that I did to it.

比如说，脂肪细胞的数量，你知道，当体重下降时，细胞的体积会变小。

You know, might be there's something about like the number of fat cells, you know, whenever it goes down, size can go down.

我不确定这到底有多准确。

I don't know how true that is.

所以，所有这些都被视为不可逆转的，甚至极端到孩子跑到马路上被车撞了，因为你作为父母太过放任。

So there's kind of all these things that are viewed as irreversible, and it gets all the way to the most extreme of the kid runs in the street and gets hit by a car because you were too permissive as a parent.

因此，有一长串的担忧，但我认为，这些特定的事情你必须在年幼时学会，因为长大后你就无法改变，或者根本学不会了。

So there's a litany of fears, but I think there is a specific thing around these things that you have to learn when you're young because you can't change when you're older, or you can't learn them when you're older.

这里有好几个要点。

So a bunch of points to this.

首先，我们就假设这是对的。

First, let's just grant let's say that's true.

对吧？

Right?

这些是不可妥协的事情。

There's these nonnegotiable things.

但这仍然引出了一个问题：怎么做？

That still raises the question of how.

你如何让孩子学会这些事情？

How do you get your kids to learn these things?

对吧？

Right?

如果数学是必不可少的，你完全可以拿枪指着孩子说：你必须学数学。

If math is essential, you could put a gun to your kid's head and say, you're learning math.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Right.

所以我们能意识到，那样做会是

And so we could recognize that that would be

一个糟糕的主意。

a bad idea.

等等。

Wait.

我得试着不，不行。

I gotta I gotta try to no.

算了。

Never mind.

哦，我从来没想过这一点。

Oh, I never thought of that.

所以问题在于创造性解决问题。

So the the question is Creative problem solving.

就在这里。

Here it is.

乔丹·彼得森有一个很流行的观点，他说你知道，你不能让你的孩子做出让你不喜欢他们的行为。

Jordan Peterson has a popular thing where he's saying that you, you know, you don't let your kid behave in a way that makes you not like them.

而且，天啊，这听起来确实很重要，但你知道，你怎么才能让孩子做到这一点呢？

And, like, boy, that really sounds important, but, you know, how do you make the kid do that?

问题就在于，你无法确保孩子一定会发展成某种特定的样子。

And that is the problem is that there is no way to make a kid turn out in any particular way.

每一种让孩子做某事的方法都会带来一整套代价。

Every method of making a kid do something brings in a whole host of costs.

每次你使用强迫手段时，你并没有真正让孩子去做某件事。

Every time you're bringing in coercion, you're not making a kid necessarily do something.

你只是提高了他们做其他事情的成本。

What you're doing is you are raising the costs of them doing something else.

对吧？

Right?

如果你想让他们学数学，就必须提高他们玩电子游戏、打棒球或做其他事情的代价。

If you wanna learn them to learn math, you have to raise the costs of them playing video games or playing baseball or doing whatever else it is.

那么，有没有一种方法可以让他们学数学，而不需要提高他们做其他事情的代价呢？

And so is there a way for them to learn math that doesn't involve you raising the costs of them doing something else?

答案是肯定的。

And the answer is yes.

解决任何问题的方法都有无穷多种。

There's infinite number of ways to solve any problem.

有让数学变得有趣的方法。

There's ways of making math fun.

有办法让它变得有趣，做成游戏，你知道的，你可以去了解各种应用程序，听到很多这类东西。

There's ways of just making it fun, making games, and, you know, you can go through all the different apps and you hear about all this kind of stuff.

从这个意义上说，这种育儿理念实际上是积极的养育方式。

In that sense, this philosophy, by the way, is very active parenting.

所以对于那些认为这可能是忽视的人，事实恰恰相反。

So to the people who think this might just be neglect, it's the opposite.

我认为这需要投入更多的时间、更多的创造力和更多的前期努力。

I would say it requires way more time investment, way more creativity, way more upfront.

从某种意义上说，是的，用一大堆规则来管孩子确实很费劲。

In one way, yeah, managing kids with a lot of rules is a ton of work.

这确实很辛苦，但一旦奏效，就会腾出大量的自由时间。

This is a lot of work, but also opens up when it works, it opens up a huge amount of free time.

这看起来似乎是，当然你可以反驳这一点，一种只适用于受过良好教育的精英阶层的育儿方式——他们有足够的时间从第一性原理出发，以这种方式处理问题。这并不否定其价值，因为我认为其中的一些理念，人们还是可以借鉴应用的。

That does seem like and feel free to refute this, but a parenting approach that is perhaps limited to the educated elite with enough time to operate from first principles and approach things this way, which is not to negate the value of it because I think that there are probably bits and pieces that people can apply.

顺便说一下，这种理念在学校里其实已经有实践版本了。

So there are versions of this that have been done in schools, by the way.

有一本非常著名的书叫《夏山学校》，讲的是英国一所学校，我记不清具体时间了，可能现在还存在，但它早在很久以前就出名了。那是一所非常宽容的学校，孩子们自己管理学校，决定是否上课，老师只是和孩子处于同等的同伴地位，作为他们的资源。

There's a very famous book called Summerhill about a school in The UK, I forget when, maybe it's still around, but it got famous a long time ago, but it was very permissive schooling where the kids ran the school, they decided if they wanted to go to class or not, the teachers were just at the same peer level as the kids and were resources for the kids.

这些孩子年龄稍大一些，但也没大太多。

Now, these were slightly older kids, you know, but not that much older.

我认为，萨默希尔学校里有些孩子只有六七岁大，那里的教育非常非常宽松。

They were, I think there were kids in Summerhill who were like six, seven, eight years old, and it was very, very permissive.

这几乎相当于教育领域中认真对待孩子或‘主权儿童’的理念。

It's almost the school equivalent of taking children seriously or Sovereign Child kind of philosophies.

所以，即使在看护者的环境中也有人尝试过，但要让普通人接受并做到极其成功，真的很难。

So, it has been done in even a caregiver context, but boy, it's hard to get people Supposedly to incredibly successful.

Piggy 不是被一块大石头从……

Piggy didn't get killed with a big rock off

悬崖上砸死的吗？

the cliff?

你知道，这和任何违背体制的东西一样，都不会被体制所接纳。

Know, it's it's yeah, it's for the same reason that, like, you know, anything that goes against the institution, it doesn't get absorbed by the institutions.

是的。

Yeah.

任何降低掌权者地位的事情，往往都不会被掌权者采纳。

You if anything that is status lowering for the people in power tends not to get adopted by people in power.

这是很常见的事情。

That's a common thing.

但你看，确实没有什么方法能适用于所有人。

But but look, yeah, nothing can work for everybody.

我认为这里有一些值得深入思考和质疑的普遍原则。

I think there are some general principles out of here that are worth thinking through and challenging.

正如我所说，我已经仔细阅读了亚伦书中的论点，并采纳了一些观点。我和妻子也在讨论如何尝试更多这样的方法，因为如果有效，实际上对所有人都更好。

Like I said, I've gone through Aaron's arguments in his book and have adopted some of them, and my wife and I were talking about how we're going to try some more of them, because if it works, it's actually better for everybody.

我现在对某些事情有了更敏锐的觉察，你知道，有些东西你一旦了解了，就会因此对其他事情也更加敏感。

I am now much more keenly aware of some things, you know, it's like some things you learn about and then you become more keenly aware of things as a result.

所以我更加清楚地意识到，几乎每一次与孩子的冲突都是一场谈判。

So I'm much more keenly aware how almost every conflict with a child is about a negotiation.

他们在争取某些东西，因为你定了规则，而你却像个小国王一样，随意地现场重新协商规则。

They're negotiating for something because you have a rule, and then you're playing little king or dictated arbitrary renegotiating the rule on the fly.

然后他们跑去找另一个家长，如果不喜欢你的决定，就会试图重新谈判规则，或者想办法绕过它。

And then they go off to the other parent and they try to renegotiate the rule if they don't like your result, or they try to figure out how to work around it.

当你开始注意到这一点，意识到你的生活中有多少时间花在制定规则、执行规则和绕开规则上，以及有多少互动都围绕着这些，你就会对这一切产生反感。

And when you start noticing that and you realize how much of your life is in negotiating rules and creating rules and routing around rules and how many interactions around that, you start developing a distaste for it.

如果你以前不刷牙或不用牙线，每天只刷一两次或三次，但当你习惯了牙齿清洁的感觉后，你就会注意到牙齿上出现了一层膜。

If you didn't used to brush your teeth and floss like twice or three times a day, when you get used to that feeling of clean teeth, then you'll notice when there's a film on your teeth.

但在你达到那个阶段之前，你根本不会注意到牙齿上有层膜，对吧？

But until you get to that point, you don't notice there's a film on your teeth, right?

或者，如果你意识到自己的思绪纷乱，比如你开始冥想，你就会开始注意到：哦，我的想法跑远了。

Or like, if you're aware of your monkey mind, right, you meditate, then you start noticing like, oh, my thoughts are running away.

但在你开始冥想之前，你从没留意过自己的思绪飘走，那只是再正常不过的事。

But before you started meditating, you never noticed when your thoughts were running away, that's just normal.

所以现在，当你意识到这一切有多少是关于为他们制定规则——顺便说一句，这些规则你绝不会对任何人施加，无论是出于爱、恨还是其他任何原因——这正是亚伦提出的很好的检验标准：如果你不会对配偶那样说话，就不要对孩子那样说话。

So now when you're aware of how much of this is about creating rules for them to follow, Rules that, by the way, you would never inflict in anybody else ever, out of love, out of hate, out of anything, and that's a good litmus test that Aaron lays out, which is like, if you wouldn't do it to your spouse, if you wouldn't speak that way to your spouse, don't speak that way to your child.

所以你会变得更加觉察，而随着觉察的提升，你自然会做出改变，这就是我的观点。

So you become more aware, and as you become more aware, you will automatically make changes is my point.

就像你常说的，你知道吗？

Like you, you always say, you know what?

我不希望跟你讨价还价地定规则。

I don't want to be negotiating a rule with you.

关键是这样。

Here's the thing.

我让你这么做是有原因的。

Here's the reason I'm telling you to do it.

你愿意接受就接受，不愿意就算了，但我要说明白原因。

You take it or leave it, man, but here's the reason.

咱们先确保你理解我的用意。

Like, let's let's just make sure you understand my reasoning.

如果你不同意，也没关系。

And if you don't agree, fine.

你想怎么做就怎么做。

Do what you want.

但我发现，在某些情境和年龄段，这种方法效果更好。

But I do find there's certain contexts and ages that that works better at.

所以我想要进行这次对话的原因也是因为我以前说过这一点。

So the reason I wanted to have this conversation also is because I've said this before.

我想这来自纪录片《Objectified》，那是关于工业设计的。

I think it was from the documentary Objectified, which is about industrial design.

可能是智能设计，也可能是青蛙设计，但他们说，为极端情况设计能反哺普通情况，但反过来不行。

And it was maybe smart design, could have been frog design, but they said the designing for the extremes informs the mean, but not vice versa.

对吧？

Right?

所以我很欣赏你，亚伦，你实际上是一个将这一点做到极致的边缘案例。

So I like that you, Aaron, are effectively an edge case who's implemented this to the nth degree.

我邀请你上节目，尤其是和纳瓦尔一起，就是希望人们能从中吸取一两件事。

And the hope of having you on the show, especially with Naval, is that people can take even one or two things.

比如，如果他们只记住一点：不要用对待配偶的方式去和孩子说话，这个原则本身就很有价值，可以以无数种形式体现。

For instance, if they just take don't speak to your child in a way you wouldn't speak to your spouse, like, that is a valuable principle that could take a million different forms.

或者，如果你在解决大量类似的问题，也许你可以一次性解决一个元问题。

Or if you're solving lots of similar problems, maybe there's a meta problem you can solve once.

对吧？

Right?

比如疾病的细菌理论。

Like the germ theory of disease, for instance.

我猜你不仅和批判理性主义社群的人有联系，也和‘主权儿童’与‘认真对待孩子’社群的人有交流，你们常见的成功经验是什么？也就是那些比人们预期更有效的方法，以及你们观察到的、虽然不是普遍但有规律性的挑战是什么？

I assume you're probably in touch with other people in the not just the critical rationalism community, but in the Sovereign Child and Taking Children Seriously communities, what are some of the common wins, meaning things that work better than folks may have expected, and then things that are particularly challenging for folks that you see not necessarily across the board, but as a pattern.

最难的是兄弟姐妹之间的冲突。

The hardest thing is sibling conflict.

我认为这是最难的，因为我不能让我的六岁孩子打我的四岁孩子。

I think that's the hardest thing because I can't let my six year old beat up my four year old.

从一句刻薄的话到拳打脚踢，中间有一大段不同层次的攻击行为。

There's a wide range of aggression between a harsh word and physically pounding someone's face in.

你可以挡住身体上的攻击，但言语上的尖刻仍然来回不断。

You can block the physical blows, but there's still a lot of harshness going back and forth.

这非常令人不快。

It's very unpleasant.

这对其他所有人来说都造成了很大的干扰。

It's very disruptive to everybody else.

只是退到一旁说‘我不想强迫任何人’，这并不是一个好办法。

And just kind of sit back and say, well, you know, I don't want to coerce anybody is not a good option.

当我一对一地和孩子们互动时，我能想出各种解决方案和创意办法。

You know, when I'm interacting one on one with my kids, I can think up solutions and creative solutions and stuff.

但当我的两个孩子彼此互动时，他们常常缺乏解决彼此问题所需的知识背景。

But when my two kids are interacting with each other, neither of them have the background knowledge to be able to solve their problems often.

因此，很难不介入其中，既避免让问题变得混乱，又能防止他们失控。

And so it's very hard to not insert myself into that and confuse that issue, but also prevent them from spiraling out of control.

所以我用来应对这种情况的一些做法是，我会 physically 阻止。

And so some things that I do to deal with that is I'll physically block.

当他们要打架时，我会挡在中间，挡住拳头，任由他们大喊大叫，但防止任何身体伤害。

You know, when they're trying to fight, I'll just get in the way and block the blows and kind of let the yelling happen, but prevent any kind of physical injury.

另一个重要的建议是，始终给孩子一个退出的机会，这一点是普遍适用的。

And another big tip is to always give a kid a place to opt out, and this kind of goes across the board.

如果我们的孩子想远离这些事，他们可以回到自己的房间，关上门，不必担心，他们可以独自一人。

And if our kids want to get away from things, they can go to their room and close the door and not have to worry about, we'll just be alone.

这几乎是成年人的一项神圣权利，但孩子们却常常毫无隐私可言。

And this is almost a sacred right for adults, but kids routinely have zero privacy.

给予他们隐私的选择，就是赋予他们退出几乎任何事情的权利，从而避免大量强迫行为，避免因被迫与让你感到困扰的人面对面而造成的亲密关系损伤。

And giving them the option of privacy gives them the option to opt out of almost anything and really just avoid a ton of coercion, avoid the relationship damage that comes from just being forced to be face to face with somebody that you are struggling with.

这将是最大的挑战。

That would be the biggest challenge.

你在书中提到了一些关于这一点的很好的观点，其中一个就是确保孩子们拥有明确的所有权。

You had some good points on this in your book where one was, like, make sure that the kids have clear ownership.

他们不必被迫分享东西。

They're not forced to share things.

就像你不会强迫成年人真正分享新东西一样。

Just like you don't force adults to, like, really share new things.

你也不该强迫孩子们这样做。

You don't force the kids either.

他们可以交易、协商，但所有权是明确的。

They can trade, they can negotiate, but they have clear ownership.

我今天刚用了这个方法。

And I actually just used this today.

今天家里到了两件东西。

Two items arrived at the house today.

是一副UNO牌和一个宝可梦盒子，我给了每个男孩一件，并明确了归属权。

It was a set of Uno cards and a Pokemon box, and I gave one to each boy and I assigned ownership.

我说，你们可以交易和协商，但所有权是明确的。

And I said, you can trade and you can negotiate, but there's clear ownership.

否则，如果他们只是共享，就会没完没了地争抢。

Otherwise, if they're sharing, it's an infinite tug of war.

很多孩子争吵的时候，其实是在彼此协商界限，而你作为父母总是迟到，你真的想介入这种调解中间吗？

And a lot of what, when kids are fighting, they're really negotiating boundaries with each other, and you as a parent always show up late, and then do you want to get involved in the middle of an adjudication?

一个不错的经验法则是：你会对两个成年人这么做吗？

And a good rule of thumb is like, well, would you do that with two adults?

如果你的兄弟和姐妹在打架，你会冲进去开始调解吗？

If your brother and your sister were fighting, would you show up in the middle and start adjudicating?

你知道的吧？

You know?

不会。

No.

如果他们开始打对方，你大概会阻止他们，对吧？

If they started hitting each other, you'd probably stop them, right?

所以类似的原则也适用。

So kind of the similar rules apply.

如果他们打起来了，你就上去拦住，说：嘿，嘿，嘿，嘿，我不喜欢这样。

If they're hitting each other, you get in the way and you're like, hey, hey, hey, hey, I don't feel good about this.

但另一方面，如果他们在争论，你就让他们继续争。

But on the other hand, if they're having an argument, you let them have the argument.

如果吵得特别大声、很扰民，你可能会说：嘿，我在家里，你们两个太吵了。

If it's really loud and disruptive, you might say, hey, I'm in the house and you two are being very disruptive.

我要去别处。

I'm going to go elsewhere.

你去别处。

You go elsewhere.

但请小声一点。

But just keep it down.

解决你们的争端，但请小声一点。

Settle your dispute, but keep it down.

所以我认为，尽可能把他们当作成年人来对待，更好的方式是把他们看作是知识尚未全面发展的成年人。

So I think the framework of trying to treat them like adults whenever possible and just it's better to think of them as adults who don't have the full range of knowledge.

你知道，也许他们的推理能力还在发展中，因为他们还没有建立起完整的思维结构或逻辑体系。

You know, maybe they're still developing their powers of reasoning because they don't have the full infrastructure or logic built up.

纳瓦尔，我问你一个问题。

Naval, let me ask you this.

我认为相当多，而且我跟一些有孩子的朋友聊过，我亲眼看到他们的孩子经历了高中、大学等等。

I think a decent amount, and I, you know, I've spoken to friends of mine with kids who are now I've seen them go through high school, college, etcetera.

在一些家庭中，甚至孩子们自己也不喜欢安慰奖。

And in some of these families, and even the kids themselves dislike consolation prizes.

对吧？

Right?

每个人都参与竞争，每个人都获奖。

Like, everyone competes, everyone wins.

当人们真正步入社会时，这种情况并不能反映真实生活。

It's not a reflection of real life when ultimately people get out into the wild.

因此，学习竞争，以及其中伴随的摩擦和可能的失望，是很重要的。

So learning to compete and all of the friction and maybe disappointment that entails is important.

我想知道，你是否在训练你的孩子质疑一切，并自己得出结论，同时理解事物背后的根本逻辑。

And I suppose I'm wondering if you're training your kids to question everything and come to their own conclusions perhaps, and maybe and sure, understand the root kind of reasoning around things.

但你是否期望你的孩子完全成为企业家，仅此而已？

But do you expect your kids to be fully entrepreneurs and that's that?

比如，他们作为公司的创始人，为自己创造一个乌托邦？

Like, they kind of create their own utopia as the founder of a company?

否则，就像亚伦那样，我想象在医院里有很多规矩。

Because otherwise, like Aaron, I would imagine, at a hospital, there are plenty of rules.

对吧？

Right?

那么，你如何教一个人在家中生活在一个没有规则的世界里？

And so how do you teach someone to live in a world without rules in the household?

也许我这样描述是错的，你可以告诉我。

Maybe I'm mischaracterizing that, you could tell me.

然后进入一个充满各种规则的世界。

And then enter a world where there are lots of rules.

你知道我有多爱违反规则，有多不合群。

You know how much of a rule breaker I am and how antisocial I am.

是的，我完全接受。

So I'm Yeah.

我对孩子没有朋友、相处不好、不被喜欢、不合群这件事完全无所谓。

Fully fine with my kids, not having friends, not getting along, not being liked, not fitting in.

我认为这是一种超能力。

I think that's a superpower.

这是一种额外的优势。

It's a bonus.

亚伦，我们马上听你说。

Aaron, we'll come to you.

太完美了。

So perfect.

我认为礼貌的规则是个很好的例子。

I think rules of courtesy are a great example.

能够以体贴、礼貌的方式与人互动。

Being able to interact with people courteously with you know, conscientiously, being polite.

对此有两种不同的做法。

And there's kind of two approaches to that.

你可以强迫孩子时刻保持礼貌，但这样他们从来不会真正理解为什么。

You can force your kids to be polite all the time, in which case they never really understand why.

对吧？

Right?

他们不理解优雅和感恩。

They don't understand graciousness and gratitude.

他们不理解这些事情的微妙之处，因此在现实世界中显得笨拙。

They don't understand the subtleties of those things, and so they're kind of ham fisted when they're out in the world.

而如果重点放在礼貌背后的原因上，如果你从不强迫他们礼貌，而是向他们介绍这些概念，我们总是对我们的孩子使用‘请’和‘谢谢’。

Whereas if the focus is on the reasons for being polite, if you never force them to be polite and instead introduce them to the concepts, We use please and thank you all the time with our kids.

我们会让他们做一些事情。

We ask them to do things.

我们从不强迫他们，也从不命令他们做事。

We never force them and we never command them to do things.

因此，我们夫妻俩彼此交流的方式，和我们与孩子交流的方式一样，都体现着这种自觉性。

And so conscientiousness, you know, the my wife and I talk with each other in the same way that we talk with our kids in terms of conscientiousness.

他们理解了——不是通过明确的说教，而是通过直觉——这些词的意义和用法，就像他们学习语言中的其他词汇一样。

And they understand, again, not on an explicit level, but in an intuitive way what these words are for and how they work, just like they learn all the other words in the language.

所以当他们步入社会时，大家都觉得自己的孩子很棒，但我觉得我的孩子非常有责任感。

And so when they go out into the world, everybody thinks their kids are great, but my kids are I think they're quite conscientious.

他们会说请和谢谢。

They say please and thank you.

他们会跟祖父母、亲戚以及邻居朋友打招呼。

They'll say things to their grandparents, their extended family, the neighborhood friends.

他们与这些人互动的方式，可以说比你预期的更成熟、更像成年人。

They actually interact with them, I would say, more adult or more mature than you would expect.

他们完全不是野孩子。

They're the opposite of feral.

他们从不试图操纵别人。

They're never trying to manipulate people.

他们从不玩心理游戏。

They're never playing mind games.

他们从不防御性地应对。

They're never defensive.

他们反而更加真实。

They're instead just much more authentic.

我认为，最重要的是原因本身。

And I think that's what's the thing is that it's always the reasons that matter the most.

当你强迫孩子做某些事情时，你实际上是在说，原因并不重要。

And when you're forcing your kids to do certain things, you're saying essentially that the reason doesn't matter.

这件事太重要了，我不在乎你怎么想。

This is so important that I don't care what you think about it.

你必须去做。

You're doing it.

你剥夺了他们学习原因的机会。

You are depriving them of the opportunity to learn the reason.

而取代这种学习原因的机会，你把自己的权威当成了理由。

And in place of that opportunity to learn the reason, you are inserting your own authority as the reason.

但你知道，当他们步入社会时，你并不在他们身边。

But, you know, when they go out into the world, you're not there.

那么，认真和礼貌的理由是什么呢？

So now what's the reason for being conscientious and polite?

所以，世界上所有其他的规则都是如此。

So all the other rules about the world.

这引出了你关于限制的观点。

And this gets to your point about constraints.

这其实是一个深刻且我认为非常有趣的想法，即知识实际上是一种限制。

This is really a deep and, I think, fascinating idea, is that knowledge is actually a constraint.

DNA的发现限制了关于生物体如何繁殖的各种观点。

The discovery of DNA constrained the ideas around how biological organisms reproduce.

这与体液无关。

It's not about the humors.

这与生命力无关。

It's not about the vital force.

这就是这一个分子。

It's this one molecule.

因此，这是一个巨大的进步，科学家们因为掌握了DNA的知识，就不再寻找其他可能性了。

And so that is an enormous step forward, and scientists stopped looking for other things because they had the knowledge of DNA.

一旦你了解了DNA以及细胞结构和细胞器，这些都会进一步限制我们对生命运作方式的理解。

And then once you learn DNA and you learn cellular structures and cellular organelles, all of these things further constrain, how life works.

生命通过细胞运作，而细胞内部这些微小的结构正是关键。

It works by cells, and it's these little structures within cells.

或者以物理学为例，对吧？

Or physics, for example, right?

牛顿发现了运动定律。

Newton discovers the laws of motion.

这些定律是对世界运作方式的限制。

Those are constraints on how the world works.

然后爱因斯坦对其进行了精细修正。

And then Einstein fine tunes them.

因此，随着知识的进步，约束变得越来越严格，知识实际上排除了大量可能性。

And so as knowledge progresses, the constraints get tighter and tighter and tighter, and knowledge really rules out a lot of things.

人类的思维并不只是接受解释。

The human mind does not just take explanations.

如果真是这样，那我只要坐在ChatGPT的另一端，就能获得所有需要的知识，从而变得聪明。

If that were the case, then I could just sit on the other end of chat GPT and get everything I needed and I'd be brilliant.

不是这样的。

No.

我们必须在脑海中重新构建。

We have to recreate in our minds.

我们必须将其融入我们现有的理论体系中。

We have to fit it into our existing network of theories.

我们必须亲自对它进行证伪。

We have to falsify it for ourselves.

我们必须对它进行检验。

We have to test it.

我们必须看看它如何与我们其他的理论和解释相契合，并以某种程度的确定性，或一种临时的、准概率的方式判断它是否为真。

We have to see how it fits into our other theories and explanations and carry it with some degree of certainty or some tentative pseudo probability of whether it's true or not.

所以这是一个持续不断的科学发现过程。

And so it's this discovery scientific process all the time.

比如，当我的孩子们不开心时，我会试着帮助他们，但我会说：嘿，你为什么让自己不开心呢？

So when my kids are unhappy, for example, I, you know, I try to like help them out, but I'm like, hey, why are you making yourself unhappy?

这就像一个提示，也许环境中的某些东西让你不开心，也许这是你的反应。

It's like a hint, like maybe anything in the environment is making you unhappy, maybe that's your reaction.

或者如果他们问我问题，我会说：我们来猜一猜。

Or if they ask me something, I'll be like, well, let's guess.

我们为什么认为这种情况可能是真的？

Why do we think that might be the case?

你的猜测是什么？

What's the guess?

哦，好吧，那为什么这可能不对呢？

Oh, okay, well, why might that not be true?

很多时候他们会回避我，因为觉得老爸在扮演居高临下的科学家，我知道这确实不该这样，对吧？

And a lot of times they deflect me because there's dad playing condescending scientists, which I know it shouldn't be, right?

这就像居高临下地对待人。

Like, it's patronizing.

我不会这样跟我的配偶说话，所以我已经在违背TCS了，但我还是在努力进行这种知识创造，你知道的，这其实非常有趣。

I wouldn't talk to my spouse that way, so I'm already violating TCS, but I'm trying to do this knowledge creation thing, and you know, it's actually really fun.

对父母来说，最令人满足的事情之一，就是能和孩子一起连接并共同发现新事物，而我的孩子们已经开始反驳我了。

So for a parent, one of the most gratifying things is when you get to connect with your child and discover something together, And my kids are already contradicting me.

他们会说：‘你昨天答应要做这件事，但今天没做，所以你食言了，爸爸，对吧？’

They'll say, well, you promised to do that yesterday and you didn't do it today, so you broke your promise, dad, right?

或者他们会说：‘嘿，你之前说过这个，但我认为这是错的。’

Or they'll say, hey, you know, you said this, but I think that's wrong.

其实应该是这样。

It's actually this.

这对父母来说是非常有成就感的。

And that is very gratifying to a parent.

如果是别人说你错了，你的自尊心其实会受到伤害。

From anybody else, your ego would actually get hurt if they said you're wrong.

当你的孩子指出你错了，而他们是对的时，你的自尊反而会得到提升。

When your child says you're wrong and they're correct, your ego actually gets a boost.

你会感觉更好。

You feel better.

这就是养孩子奇怪的地方。

That's the weird thing about having children.

这是基因在主导，而不是身体。

That's the genes in charge rather than the body.

感觉很棒。

Feels great.

所以，当这种方法奏效时，会带来极大的满足感。

So when this approach works, it is incredibly gratifying.

我想我纠结的是，为了从第一性原理教育孩子，最大化自由是必要的。

I guess what I'm struggling with is that maximizing freedom is necessary to teach your children from first principles.

这在我看来有点绝对主义。

It strikes me as absolutist in a way, I guess.