#808: 斯蒂芬·韦斯特 —— 从高中辍学生到热门播客主播，从杂货店理货员到以研读哲学为生

嘿，各位。我是蒂姆。在开始之前，先快速提醒一下。我与爆炸猫团队合作打造的新卡牌游戏《土狼》现已跻身全国畅销榜，势头简直疯狂。

Hey, folks. Tim here. Before we get started, just a quick heads up. My new card game, Coyote, which I made with the amazing people at Exploding Kittens, is now a national bestseller. Things are going completely bananas.

游戏已全面上线——亚马逊、沃尔玛、Target等8000多家零售渠道，所有能买到桌游的地方都能找到。欢迎访问coyotegame.com观看玩法视频，目前游戏视频社交浏览量已突破3亿次，实在令人难以置信。

It just launched everywhere. Amazon, Walmart, Target, 8,000 plus retail locations, anywhere you can buy games. So check it out, see some videos of gameplay at coyotegame.com. 300,000,000 social views so far of gameplay. It's kind of mind blowing.

几分钟就能学会玩法，我保证会让大家笑个不停。这款游戏打磨了两年时间，请尽情享受，快去试试吧。

Takes just minutes to learn. I guarantee you'll have a lot of laughs. This has been in the works for two years. Please enjoy it. Check it out.

访问coyotegame.com。现在回归正题——亲爱的听众朋友们，我是蒂姆·费里斯，欢迎收听新一期《蒂姆·费里斯秀》。今天的嘉宾本无需介绍，不过或许还是需要介绍一下。

Coyotegame.com. Now back to the episode. Hello, boys and girls, ladies, and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show, and my guest today needs no introduction, but maybe he does.

这位是史蒂芬·韦斯特。我说他无需介绍，是因为他的声音已陪伴我多年。作为父亲、丈夫和《哲学这样玩》播客的主持人，他的成长故事堪称传奇。他能将横跨数十个世纪的人类智慧浓缩成精悍的节目内容，这种化繁为简的能力令人叹服。

His name is Steven West. I say he needs no introduction because he has been in my ears for years upon years. Steven West is a father, husband, and host of the Philosophize This podcast. His Genesis story is insane. His ability to synthesize decades and centuries and millennia of wisdom into tight little episodes and nuggets that actually deliver the goods is incredible.

具体细节留待他自己讲述，但在我接触过的人里，他是最擅长用通俗方式诠释哲学的思想者——用我的话说，不是教人思考什么，而是教人如何更聪明地思考。他通过研究历史上留有记载的智者先贤来实现这一点。你可以在philosophizethis.org找到他，Patreon平台同名，推特账号@imstephenwest（注意拼写带ph），YouTube频道名为Philosophize This Podcast。

So I will let him say more about all of that, but he's one of the best people I've come across who can explain, translate, and humanize philosophy in a way that, in my words, doesn't teach you what to think, but how to think better. And he does that by studying the smartest people or the wisest people that have been recorded throughout history. You can find him online at philosophizethis.org. Patreon also philosophize this. On x@imstephenwest, and that is with a p h, stephen west.

接下来我们直奔主题，不过首先感谢本播客的赞助商。很多人好奇我是如何筛选赞助商的——首先要声明，我拒绝了80%以上的合作邀约，但所有产品我都会亲自测试。通过初筛的候选品，会由我的团队和外部人员进行多轮评估。

And on YouTube at philosophies this podcast. And we'll get right to the meat and potatoes of everything, but first, just a few words from the people who make this podcast possible. Many people wonder how I end up getting sponsors on this podcast. And first and foremost, I say no to 80 plus percent of the products and services that get pitched, but I always test them. And I test things either personally or if if they make the first round of vetting, my team and many others will look at these things.

最终入围的极少数产品，我会亲自试用或在社交媒体非高峰时段发起真实调研。比如我曾向百万粉丝调研Gusto服务，询问现有用户会否推荐好友使用，结果好评如潮到令人震惊——说实话，我做过几十次类似测试，从没见过如此压倒性的正面反馈。

Then I test the few who make it, myself, or I put them on social media at odd hours to get real feedback. How much would current users recommend a close friend use this service? I asked millions of you about gusto on social media, and I've never seen such overwhelmingly positive responses. It was kinda bonkers, honestly, I've done this dozens of times. And it makes sense.

这完全在情理之中：超过40万家中小企业已信任Gusto，它被G2评为2025冬季最佳薪酬软件。如果你是企业主，想简化薪酬和HR管理（谁愿意在这些事上浪费时间呢？），Gusto可能就是你需要的变革者。这个一体化平台专为中小企业设计，能自动处理联邦/州/地方 payroll税务，搞定烦人的W-2和1099表格，并提供适合各种预算的医保福利与401k方案。其直观界面集成时间追踪、入职工具，还能直接连线HR专家，让你专注发展业务而非琐事。

More than 400,000 small businesses already trust Gusto, it's been named the number one payroll software by g two for winter twenty twenty five. If you're a small business owner looking to simplify payroll and HR tasks, because why would you wanna spend more time on those things, Gusto could be the game changer that you need. Gusto is the all in one payroll benefits and HR platform designed specifically for small businesses. They automatically file federal, state, and local payroll taxes, handle w twos and ten ninety nines, what a pain in the ass all those can be, and offer straightforward health benefits and four zero one k options for nearly any budget. With an intuitive interface and features like time tracking, onboarding tools, and direct access to certified HR experts, Gusto saves time and eliminates headaches so you can focus on what matters, which is growing your business, among other things.

现在正是选择Gusto管理团队事务的最佳时机。访问gusto.com/tim即可了解为何90%用户推荐Gusto，新用户首单后可享三个月免费服务。重申：gusto.com/tim，条款适用。

Now is the perfect time to choose Gusto to take care of your team and stay compliant. So go to gusto.com/tim to see why nine out of 10 Gusto customers recommend Gusto. Listeners get three months free once they run their first payroll. Again, that's gust0.com/tim. Terms and conditions apply.

本节目由Eight Sleep赞助播出。温度是导致睡眠质量差的主要原因之一，而炎热是我个人的宿敌。几十年来我饱受辗转反侧之苦，踢开被子又拉回来，把一条腿搭在外面，如此反复令人作呕。但现在我入睡速度创下了新纪录。为什么？

This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. Temperature is one of the main causes of poor sleep, and heat is my personal nemesis. I've suffered for decades tossing and turning, throwing blankets off, pulling the back on, putting one leg on top, and repeating all of that ad nauseam. But now I am falling asleep in record time. Why?

因为我在使用一款朋友推荐的设备——Eight Sleep的Pod Cover智能床罩。这款床罩适配任何床垫，能调节睡眠环境温度，提供让你获得最佳夜间休息的完美温度。通过Pod Cover的双区温控系统，你和伴侣可以分别将床的两侧设置为最低55华氏度或最高110华氏度。根据我的经验，伴侣通常喜欢较高温度，而我喜欢非常非常凉爽的睡眠环境。所以别再为此争执了。

Because I'm using a device, it was recommended to me by friends, called the Pod Cover by Eight Sleep. The Pod Cover fits on any mattress and allows you to adjust the temperature of your sleeping environment, providing the optimal temperature that gets you the best night's sleep. With the Pod Cover's dual zone temperature control, you and your partner can set your sides of the bed to as cool as 55 degrees or as hot as 110 degrees. I think, generally, in my experience, my partners prefer the high side, and I like to sleep very, very cool. So stop fighting.

这很有效。基于你的生物特征、环境数据和睡眠阶段，Pod Cover会整夜自动调节温度，减少夜间觉醒并增加深度睡眠比例。除了顶级的温度调节功能，其内置传感器还能在不使用穿戴设备的情况下追踪你的健康和睡眠指标。用最先进的睡眠科技征服这个冬季，在完美温度中安眠。我许多生活在寒冷地区的听众——有时包括我自己——都喜欢在冰冻一天后温暖床铺。

This helps. Based on your biometrics, environment, and sleep stages, the pod cover makes temperature adjustments throughout the night that limit wake ups and increase your percentage of deep sleep. In addition to its best in class temperature regulation, the pod cover sensors also track your health and sleep metrics without the need to use a wearable. Conquer this winter season with the best in sleep tech and sleep at your perfect temperature. Many of my listeners in colder areas, sometimes that's me, enjoy warming up their bed after a freezing day.

如果有伴侣就更棒了，你们可以分区设置，各自享受理想睡眠温度。非常简单。立即获得最佳夜间睡眠体验，访问8sleep.com/tim并使用优惠码tim，立减350美元购买Pod Four Ultra智能床垫。

And if you have a partner, great. You can split the zones, and you can sleep at your own ideal temperatures. It's easy. So get your best night's sleep. Head to 8sleep.com/tim and use code tim to get $350 off of the pod four ultra.

目前配送范围覆盖美国、加拿大、英国、欧洲和澳大利亚。

They currently ship to The United States, Canada, The United Kingdom, Europe, and Australia.

最佳矿物质。

Optimal mineral.

在这个海拔高度，我可以全速奔跑半英里才会手抖。我能回答你的私人问题吗？

At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I answer your personal question?

不。我们只是在大场面见识它。

No. We're just seeing it for a big time.

我是

I'm

一个电子生化人，活体组织覆盖金属内骨骼。

a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

内骨骼。史蒂文，赛博格的我真高兴你来到德克萨斯州奥斯汀。欢迎。谢谢。我做到了。

Endoskeleton. Steven, cybernetic I'm so happy that you are here in Austin, Texas. Welcome. Thank you. I made it.

做到了。活生生的你做到了。

Made it. Living You made it.

哦天啊

Oh my

。我想先感谢我的一位朋友。我想你们有过一些线上互动，戴夫·埃利奇。对。专业鼓手，全能好人，了不起的人类。

gosh. I wanna give a thank you upfront to a friend of mine. I think you've had some virtual interaction with him, Dave Elich. Yeah. Professional drummer, all around mench, amazing human.

他发给我一篇文章，我马上要引用其中内容。某种意义上这是对你的重新审视，更多是你的思想而非故事——因为我很久前就开始听你的播客。我们负责幕后工作的摄像师也听《哲学这事》，我的制作人也是。在我的小圈子里，你的影响力很大。

And he sent me an article I'm gonna quote from very shortly, which was in a sense a revisiting of you and not so much your story, but your thinking for me because I started listening to your podcast ages ago. And our dear videographer who is helping with everything behind the scenes listens to philosophize this. My producer listens to philosophize this. And in my little world, it is very well represented.

哇。好的。谢谢。

Wow. Okay. Thank you.

是的。绝对的。这是惊人的贡献，你打磨出的非凡技艺。但如约，我要引用戴维·利希特发我的文章。这是托马斯·查特顿·威廉姆斯在《大西洋月刊》写的，好名字。

Yeah. Absolutely. And it's an amazing contribution, incredible craft that you've honed. But as promised, I wanted to quote from a piece that was sent to me by Davey Licht. This was in the Atlantic written by Thomas Chatterton Williams, great name.

分享其中一两句：十一年前，史蒂芬·韦斯特还在西雅图的Safeway仓库整理杂货。他24岁，自16岁辍学后一直打工谋生。好。我们就从这里开始。

And here's the line or two that I will share. Eleven years ago, Stephen West was stocking groceries at a Safeway warehouse in Seattle. He was 24 and had been working to support himself since dropping out of high school at 16. Okay. So we're going to start there.

实际上我们要把时间倒得更早。能简单分享下你的童年吗？成长经历，任何想到的事？

And actually, we're going to rewind the clock even further. Could you just share a bit about your childhood, how you grew up, anything that comes to mind?

显然我16岁辍学是哪里出了问题。顺便说，托马斯·查特顿·威廉姆斯的文笔真棒。那种密集的写作风格。是啊。

Clearly, something went wrong along the way if I ended up dropping out of high school at 16. By the way, great writing from Thomas Chatterton Williams, by way. Incredible. Dense writing there. Yeah.

就像海明威的故事一样。我的父母也有他们自己的问题，就像所有人的父母那样。你知道，每个人成长过程中都会带着各自的

It's like Hemingway. My parents had their own issues as people's parents do. You know, everybody grows up with their

包袱。你是在哪里出生的？

own stuff. Where were you born?

圣地亚哥，圣地亚哥。后来我搬到了阿拉巴马，其实是北卡罗来纳。我小时候父亲在军队服役。所以我在北卡罗来纳和阿拉巴马住过一阵子，然后又回到了加州。后来我被儿童保护服务局从街头带走，那时

San Diego, San Diego. And then I moved to Alabama, actually North Carolina. My dad was in the military when I was very young. So I went to North Carolina, Alabama for a while, and then we went back to California. And then I was taken by CPS off the streets when

我九岁的时候，被儿童保护服务局带走的。

I was nine for the Child protective services.

对，对。我们已经好几个月没有固定住所了，他们觉得这样最好。之后我去了集体寄养家庭，最初被安置在亲戚家。但那些亲戚的关系也很糟糕。显然事情就是这样运作的。

Yeah, yeah. We hadn't had an apartment in a few months and they just thought it was best. I then went to like group homes and I was placed with family members at first. And then they also had pretty toxic relationships. Apparently that's how it works.

就像我父母来自破碎的家庭。当我被转交给这些人时，显然他们也都有各自的问题。总之，我又被儿童保护服务局带走，早早和姐姐分开，14岁时在华盛顿州获得长期寄养安置——也就是我现在住的地方，之后再没搬过家。16岁那年，我无处可去。

Like my parents come from messed up situations. So when I then get replaced with one of these people, apparently they also have kind of messed up situations. But anyway, taken by CPS again, separated from my big sister early, long term foster placement when I was 14 up in Washington, which is where I live now, and I haven't moved since. Alright. But yeah, when I was 16, I didn't have any place to stay.

就像我说的，原本有个长期寄养家庭，他们帮了我个大忙。他们说：听着，在华盛顿州，如果失踪者超过16岁就不必报案。既然现在这种安排完全行不通，我们可以让你逃跑，而且不会报失踪。这是我收到过最棒的提议，所以我接受了。我在朋友车里住了一阵子，后来和当时的同事合租公寓。因为未满签约年龄，只能靠诚信和他合住。

There was a long term foster placement, like I said, and they did me a solid. They said, look, in the state of Washington, you don't have to report somebody as a missing person if they're over the age of 16. So what we can do for you is if you just were to run away, because this obviously isn't working in this whole circumstance, we won't report you as a missing person. That was the best offer I'd ever gotten at So that I took it, I lived in my friend's car for a bit, I got an apartment with a person that I was working with at the time. I wasn't old enough to sign a lease, so I had to just sort of be on an honor system with him.

最后我和当时的女朋友同居了。总之，你知道，人总能想办法活下去。

And eventually I moved in with my girlfriend at the time. Anyway, it was a, you know, people make do.

那时候你的日常生活和周常安排是怎样的？

What did your kind of day to day, week to week look like at that point?

我拼命工作。这就是我不得不辍学的原因——必须全职工作来支付账单。既然无家可归，就得先解决住处，所以我努力赚钱。最初在Safeway超市当装袋员，后来升职为辅助店员，负责补货、整理货架、帮顾客找商品。

I worked a lot. That's why I had to drop out of school because I had to work full time to pay my bills. If I had no place to stay, I needed to get a place to stay, and so I made money. And so I worked at Safeway as a bagger for groceries. Then eventually I got promoted to a helper clerk, which is like you get stock shelves and you refill stuff, get stuff for customers.

所以那是我当时人生中最大的成就。

So that was the biggest accomplishment of my life at the time.

你是什么时候获得那次晋升的？大概多少岁？

And when did you get that promotion? What age were you roughly?

16岁。16岁？对。好的，明白了。你在Safeway继续工作了多久？

16. 16? Yeah. Okay, got it. How long did you continue working at Safeway?

实际上，我在Safeway工作，但每小时只赚7美元左右，根本不够。所以我还在隔壁的Joann Fabrics兼职——那里简直就是奶奶们的天堂。我每天凌晨4点去卷黄色毛线，顺便整理货架。

Actually, worked at Safeway and I wasn't making enough money at Safeway making 7 whatever an hour it was. So I worked at Joann Fabrics, which actually was next door. There was a Safeway and a Joann Fabrics next door. I mean, is like a grandma's wet dream. And I would just like wound the yellow yarn every morning at 4AM and like stock stuff there.

有段时间我的生活就是这样：凌晨4点到Joann Fabrics，从4:30工作到12:30，然后赶Safeway的晚班（说是晚班，其实是下午3:30到9点的收银班）。这日子可不轻松，后来我实在受不了了。

That was literally my life for a while. It's just I would show up to Joann Fabrics at 4AM, work from like 04:30 to 12:30, and then I'd work the night shift at Safeway. Well, not night, but you know, the last helper clerk shift from 03:30 to nine or whatever it was. That was not fun. Eventually, I didn't want to do that anymore.

我想与其打两份工，不如找份仓库的活，时薪14美元。靠着之前积累的好口碑，经理也同意了，十七岁半我就调过去了。

I thought instead of having two jobs, I will just get one job where I make $14 an hour at the warehouse, and I'll use whatever good reputation I've accumulated here thus far, And my manager was cool with it, and I transferred over there at like seventeen and a half.

可能问得外行——为什么仓库工资比你之前的岗位高？

So dumb question of somewhat of a specialist in those. Why does the warehouse pay more than the other roles you had?

因为更辛苦啊。每天下班腰都直不起来，第二天根本不想去。说实话，我之所以想做播客，就是看到办公室那些老员工——他们走向停车场时，后背僵硬得像做过多次脊柱融合手术。整天在水泥地上搬50磅的货箱，日复一日。

It's harder work. I mean, you show up every day, your back hurts at the end of the day. You don't want to come back the next day. Look, the thing that made me want to start a podcast is looking at the old dudes that were working in the office and they would walk out to their car like just like their backs had been fused together by like multiple spinal surgeries. It's just like walking on that hard concrete and lifting 50 pound boxes on a pallet all day long.

重复性体力劳动太折磨人了。

Repetitive labor and it's brutal. Yeah,

建议没体验过的听众试试——光是在水泥地上站几小时就够受的。没错，得买双好鞋。确实。

I challenge anyone listening if they have never done it, just go stand on concrete for a few hours. It is excruciating. Yeah. Need good shoes. Yeah.

是啊。确实如此。人们会说，哦，不。我在街上走的时候。不。

Yeah. It is. And people are like, oh, no. Well, I walk on the streets. No.

不一样。沥青路面不同。相比混凝土，它就像蹦床。那最好的和最差的方面是什么？我觉得你已经提到了那个仓库工作最糟糕的部分。

Not the same. Asphalt's different. It's like a trampoline compared to concrete. What were the best aspects and the worst aspects? I think you covered some of the worst of that warehousing job.

你问这个问题真是太明智了，因为你知道当你年纪大了，回头看时，你会注意到当时没注意到的事情。最好的方面是，我有时会怀念和仓库里的伙计们聊天，那里有很多很好的人，而播客里没有这种社交元素。另外就是，我可以整天听有声书。我是说，我还能找到什么其他工作？当时我甚至没意识到自己正偶然发现一个为我打开这么多可能性的事情。

You are so wise for asking that question because you know when you get older, you look back, you notice things that you didn't notice at the time. The best aspect of it, I miss it sometimes talking to the guys in the warehouse, there are a lot of really good guys there, and I don't have that social element to the podcast. The other thing is, I got to listen to audiobooks all day long. I mean, what other job could I have gotten? I didn't even know I was stumbling into something that would open up so many possibilities for me at the time.

感觉就像我只是个临时工，很糟糕。但是，是的，我可以整天听哲学书和谈话广播。我听亚当·卡罗拉和德鲁医生的《爱情热线》，还有霍华德·斯特恩的节目，就像听这些人用语言描绘画面一样。太美妙了。

It felt like I was just a day labor, just horrible. But, yeah, I got to listen to philosophy books all day long and talk radio. I got to listen to Loveline with Adam Carolla and Doctor. Drew and Howard Stern, just like listening to these people just paint pictures with their words. It was beautiful.

是啊，我是说，如果我在办公室工作或快餐店工作，我很容易就陷入那些地方。如果那样，我就不可能一天读十小时的书。回想起来，那是那份工作最棒的地方，没错。

And yeah, I mean, if I worked at an office or if I worked at a fast food place, I easily could have ended up in any of those spots. If I did, I wouldn't have been able to read books ten hours a day. That was in retrospect an amazing thing about the job, yeah.

所以对于听众来说，他们可能会想，如果我在你的位置，我不会立刻想到哲学。对吧？可能是，不是贬低这些，但可能是《饥饿游戏》，可能是无数类型中的任何一种，无数作者中的任何一位。你是怎么开始听哲学的？或者哲学最初是怎么进入你的生活的？

So for people listening, they may think to themselves, I wouldn't immediately, if I were in your position, find philosophy. Right? It could have been, not to devalue any of these things, but it could have been Hunger Games, could have been any of a million genres, any of a million authors. How did you end up listening to philosophy? Or how did philosophy even enter your life in the first place?

我也想过这个问题。我当时是个16、17岁的傻小子，正处于那个阶段。我有足够的自我意识，知道自己因为刚才谈到的糟糕童年而有创伤。所以我不想一辈子都把气撒在周围的人身上。我知道我需要导师，而我没在上学。

I kind of looked into that one too. I I was a dumb 17, 16 year old kid right on that cusp. I was self aware enough to know that I had had trauma from the messed up childhood that we just talked about. So I didn't want to just spend my whole life taking that out on the people around me. I knew that I needed mentors and I wasn't in school.

早期没有可以仰望的人，也不和家人交流。所以我真的谷歌了‘历史上最智慧的人’。那是我当时能想到的最好主意。然后，柏拉图的对话录之一《高尔吉亚》出现了，里面讲到了苏格拉底这个人在雅典集市上骚扰别人。

I didn't have like people to look up to early and I wasn't talking to my family. So I literally googled wisest person in the history of the world. It was my best idea I could come up with at the time. And, one of Plato's dialogues, Gorgias, came up there, and it talked about Soc this guy, Socrates. He's harassing people in the Athenian Agra.

他问他们问题，试图找到一个智者。我就这样被吸引住了，

He's asking them questions, trying to find a wise man. And I just got hooked,

是什么吸引了你？有什么特别的地方抓住了你？因为很多人，毫无疑问，有些人在学校上过关于哲学的必修课。他们只会想，现在给我一枪算了。对吧？

What was it about it that hooked you? Were there any particular aspects that grabbed you? Because a lot of folks, right, listening to this, no doubt, some of them took compulsory classes in school related to phosphate. They were just like, please shoot me in the head now. Right?

在某些情况下是这样。并非所有情况。

In some cases. Not all cases.

不，我并不责怪他们。

No, I don't blame them.

对吧？至少在你自主探索的过程中，它没有对你产生那种影响。是什么吸引了你或让你着迷？

Right? It did not have that effect on you, at least with your self directed exploration. What was it that appealed to you or hooked you?

这是自愿的。我的意思是，很大一部分原因在于我不是被迫去做这件事。所以我不想强迫我八岁的女儿去思考某些事情或问她哲学问题。我觉得让孩子不做某事的最好方法就是告诉他们去做——除了自愿性之外，我一直是个通过思考解决问题的人。所以这门学科的理念很吸引我。

It was voluntary. I mean, that's a big part of it is I'm not being forced into doing it. That's why I don't want to force my daughter who's eight to like think about stuff or ask her philosophical questions. I just think the best way to get your kid to not do something is to tell them to do yeah, aside from the voluntary nature of it, I think that I just have always been somebody that thinks my way out of problems. And so the idea that this is the discipline.

如果喜剧演员去喜剧俱乐部，纯粹是为了逗人发笑，那正是喜剧演员的本质。而哲学——思考这类问题，构建对现实的新概念轨迹，用新视角看待事物。作为一个总是靠思考解决问题的人，我当然会被这样的东西吸引。这大概是我唯一能为我关心的人提供的价值。

If comedians go to a comedy club and it's his pure endeavor of trying to make people laugh, that's what makes a comedian what they are. For philosophy, thinking about things like that, forming new conceptual tracings of reality, seeing it in a new way. I mean, this is, Of course, I would be attracted to something like that as somebody that always thinks my way out of problems. I mean, that's the only service I can really provide to

那么针对这次对话的目的，你会如何定义或重新包装哲学，以面向那些一听到就产生半过敏反应的人？或许因为他们听过一堆象牙塔专家用谜语般的逻辑/数学谜题说话，让人完全摸不着头脑。当然不能说所有人都听不懂。

the people around me that, like, matter to me. So for the purposes of this conversation, how would you define or rebrand philosophy for people who have an immediate semi allergic reaction? Because perhaps they've heard a bunch of ivory tower specialists speaking in riddles or speaking in logic slash math puzzles that no one can make any sense of. I shouldn't say no one. Yes.

大概有17个人能完全理解那些内容。但你建议人们如何看待哲学？

There are, 17 people who probably make a lot of sense out of all of it. But how do you suggest people think about philosophy?

我曾经讨厌那些人。觉得他们太自私，把一切都围绕自己。但我现在认为他们本意是好的，只是当上教授后很难体会初学者的感受。

I used to dislike those people. I thought that they're being too selfish. They're making it all about them. I think they have really good intentions, and I think it's hard when you get to be a professor to know what it's like to just be starting out.

对于

For

我来说，哲学可以用我听过的一种描述：它是常识的颠覆。就是重新审视这个世界——毕竟我们对世界的认知都是近似的。我们都是未完成的作品。我曾用一种方式看世界，而每个人都经历过世界观彻底改变的体验。

me, I would say philosophy, a way that I've heard it described is it's the disruption of common sense. I mean, is looking at the world at all? It's an approximation. We are works in progress. I look at the world one way for a while, and everybody knows what it's like to change the way that you see everything in the world.

确实，我认为哲学正是实现这一目标的方法。问题不在于你是否会从概念上改变对事物的思考方式，而在于你打算以多强的目的性去实践它？它就像思维的健身房，以新的方式重新梳理现实，为你开启新的可能性。这种思考也需要在最高层次的对话中持续进行。

And yeah, mean, I just think philosophy is the method of doing that. The question is not whether you're going to change the way that you think about things conceptually. The question is how deliberate are you going to be about it? It's like the gym for rethinking, retracing reality in a new way that opens up new possibilities to you. And it's also something that needs to go on at the highest levels of conversation.

没错。

Right.

对。这就像休闲活动或漫无目的的行为与刻意练习的区别。用你提到的喜剧例子来说，我其实就在这张桌子前采访过杰瑞·宋飞，那是几年前的事了。但真正的技艺——好比举重训练——写作、测试，你如何系统性地处理这些？又该如何将这种方法应用到对知识的热爱或哲学上？

Yeah. It's like recreation or kind of unfocused activity versus deliberate practice. Right? To to use your comedy example, I interviewed Jerry Seinfeld, actually, right at I was at this table, and it was a few years ago, but the actual craft. Right, the lifting of the weights so to speak, the writing, the testing, how do you approach it in a systematic way and how could you take something like that and then apply it to the love of knowledge or philosophy or Right.

重构事物，学习如何压力测试自己的思维。当你在仓库工作时，每天戴着耳机工作十小时。有没有哪些特别具有塑造性的输入影响了后来你做播客的道路？

Reframing things, learning how to stress test your own thinking. When you were in the warehouse, you got ten hours a day with headphones. Were there any particular kind of formative inputs that influenced the path that would later land you in the podcast?

我那时如饥似渴地阅读所有能接触到的材料。坦白说，《每周工作四小时》这本书极大地改变了我的生活可能性认知。我理解称它为哲学著作可能有些奇怪——毕竟它归类在商业书籍——但它带给我的冲击与哲学书籍无异。它质疑了我们对'新贵'、'财富本质'等概念的固有假设。

I was reading everything I could get my hands on. And, transparently, The four Hour Workweek was a huge book that allowed me to think about possibilities in my life in a new way. I mean, that's why I think I get that it's maybe weird to call it a work of philosophy, the four hour work week, because it's in the business section, right? But like, what I love from philosophy books, what they do to me, that book did for me in certain areas. You're calling into question assumptions that we're making about things like new rich, what it is to be wealthy at all.

退休这件事，多数人默认是人生终点站，不再深入思考。而在赚钱方式、生活自动化方面有哪些可能性？你当时还在对比刚刚兴起的数字世界来讨论这些。

Retirement. This is something that most people just assume is going to be at the end of their life. They don't even really think about it anymore than that. What was possible in terms of how to make money or how to automate certain aspects of your life? I mean, and you're also talking about it in contrast to an emerging digital world that at the time was just coming about.

人们生活中出现了他们未必意识到的新可能。那时候有哪个哲学家在探讨这些议题？这本书甚至让我相信做播客是可能的。所以无论如何——谢谢你。

Like new possibilities were presenting themselves in people's lives that they weren't necessarily aware of. And yeah, I mean, what philosopher is talking about these issues? So that book was beautiful for me to even think that it was possible to start a podcast. So for whatever it's worth, thank you

谢谢兄弟。

for that. Thanks, man.

没有它就没有今天的我。

I mean, I wouldn't be here.

感谢你这么说。这本书最神奇的是——我在2009年修订时发现，试图更新它简直是西西弗斯式的任务，技术迭代太快了。现在从技术角度看，书里所有内容都完全过时了。

Yeah. Thank you for saying that. And also what's wild about the book is, you know, I revised it in 2009 and then realized this is an absolutely Sisyphean task to try to revise this because the tech is moving so fast. Yeah. So everything in that book from a technical perspective is completely outdated.

对吧？没错。全都是。但这更多是其哲学基础，我认为至今仍适用。

Right? Right. All of it. But it's sort of the philosophical underpinnings, which I think still apply.

是啊。你写书的时候，是否预想过会激励像我这样的人？你是从哲学角度构思的，还是单纯想着'我有这些知识，可以换13美元'——不管书价是多少来着？

Yeah. When you wrote it, did you intend for it to inspire people like me? I mean, you thinking about it philosophically or were you thinking about it like, I have all this knowledge and I'm going to trade it for $13 or whatever the book's price was?

更倾向于前者。那时候我刚经历了第一次正经创业，随之而来的个人事业双重崩盘，再到浴火重生，同时摸索技术解决方案。不过2004年中期我开始自动化业务并旅行时，随身只带了几本书——没记错的话应该是三本。

I would say it more the former. Mean, at that point, I had, let's see, had these experiences with my first real business. I had had the corresponding implosion slash personal and professional meltdown and then the rebirth from the ashes, but figuring out the technological approaches and so on. However, when I first was automating my business and traveling, I wanna say mid two thousand and four, there were only a few books I took with me. If I'm remembering correctly, I think there were actually three.

我记得在其他场合提过其中两本：《瓦尔登湖》——当时充满向往，虽然梭罗溜去和爱默生吃大餐的轶事挺滑稽——但咱们就关注书本身吧。另一本是罗尔夫·波茨的《浪游之歌》，对我影响至深。

I think in some places I've mentioned two, two of them. Walden, very aspirational at the time, although the backstory on Walden's pretty funny with Thoreau sneaking off to have fancy dinners with Emerson or whatever. And so but let's just take it for what it's worth. Okay. Walden, then Vagabonding by Rolf Potts, which had a huge impact on me.

全名应该是《长期环球旅行的非凡艺术指南》，本质上也是本哲学书。第三本是塞内加的《道德书简》（或称《斯多葛派书信》）。在后来那一年我逐渐明白——远在写书卖书之前——工具本身不如使用前提重要：能用它做什么/不能做什么，以及目标。当触及金字塔这些基础层级时，就变成了哲学讨论——无论你用不用这个词，这都是种思维模式。

An Uncommon Guide to the Art of Long Term World Travel, I think it is, which is also a very deeply philosophical book fundamentally. And then the third was the, I suppose, technically the moral letters to Lucilius, but letters from a stoic, Seneca. And what I realized over the following year or so, which was well before writing the book, well before selling the book, the tools are secondary to the assumptions based on how you're going to use them, what you can do with them versus what you can't do with them, and the objectives. And when you come down to those, let's just say base levels of the pyramid, it turns into a philosophical discussion whether you use that word or not. It's a mode of thinking.

你如何交叉审视自己的思维？

And how do you cross examine your own thinking?

我觉得哲学常被我们归功于具体事物的阴影所遮蔽。个人生活也如此——我本可以简单把播客成功归因于努力、机遇或内容策略这类知识性因素，但实则是哲学观念的转变让我萌生这个可能。你提到《瓦尔登湖》...

I think philosophy has a tendency of living in the shadow of the thing we actually give credit to for the thing. And that goes on personally in our lives. I mean, it would be very easy for me to just call what I did with the podcast a matter of hard work and a matter of circumstance and content strategy or, like, a knowledge thing that I'm doing. But really, it was a philosophical shift that made it possible to even think about. You mentioned Walden.

超验主义代表拉尔夫·沃尔多·爱默生当时也深刻影响了我。说实话，没有他我也不会有今天。他曾《论自立》等文中探讨的观点让我误以为做播客或视频必须是个天才——这种谬见广为流传：若非天才，所言便无价值，谁会关注你呢？

And I mean, another one of the transcendentalists, Ralph Aldo Emerson, is a a person that had a huge impact on me at this time as well. Fact, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for him either. I used to think something that he talks about in self reliance and other essays, to have a podcast or a YouTube channel or whatever it was, you needed to be a genius. It's kind of a myth that I think gets promoted. It's like, if you're not a genius, you have nothing really that interesting to say, so who's ever gonna follow you and that stuff.

他生活在废奴运动时期，美国剧变年代，同时还有爱尔兰移民危机。他想用作品激励人们采取行动、独立思考，成为变革的催化剂——若他们有此意愿。将其思想应用在视频创作上：看看这些视频博主...

He was living during a time right around the abolition of slavery. So in The United States, it's a crucial time. A lot of changes are going on. There's also an Irish immigrant crisis going on at the time, and he wants to inspire people with his work to take action, to think for themselves, to be the catalyst for change in the world if that's something that they want. And the way to apply what he's talking about to a YouTube channel is, I mean, look at these YouTube creators.

他们是天才吗？是我们时代无与伦比的思想家吗？非也。他们只是传递着与文化共鸣的特定信息——你不需要是天才。

Are they geniuses? Are these people unparalleled geniuses thinkers of our time? No. They're people that have a certain message that they're sending, and that message corresponds to something that already exists in culture. You don't need to be a genius.

你只需要说出能引起他人共鸣的话。对我而言，能意识到这点意义重大。你可以成为人们心中已有情感的催化剂，然后你便成了他们情感连接的载体。就像他们开始将你视为那种情感的象征。所以实际上，他改变了我的思维方式。

You just need to be saying something that resonates with other people. That was huge for me to notice that. Can just be a catalyst for a sentiment that already exists in the hearts of people, and then you become the thing that they connect to. Like they start to see you as symbolic of that. So really, he made me change my thinking.

写出并说出值得说的话，不在于成为天才，而在于勇敢。在于有勇气成为那个发声的人。真的，这可能是决定一个YouTube创作者是否成功、能否拥有频道的主要因素。就是他们敢于说出来，明白吗？他们有勇气说出来，并承担可能随之而来的所有负面影响，对吧？

To write and to say something worth saying is not to be a genius, it's to be brave. It's to be the one to say it and to have courage. Really, that's probably a primary factor that determines whether one of these YouTube creators is successful or has a channel or not. It's just they were the ones to say it, you know? They they had the courage to say it and and risk all the bad that might come from that, right?

如果还没读过爱默生的作品，你会建议人们从哪篇开始？

Where would you suggest people start with Emerson if they haven't read his writing?

我会说《自立》和《论自然》这两篇是必读的。但如果你喜欢这两篇的内容，我强烈建议你接着去读二手资料，把他写的每篇散文都读一遍。其实他作品并不多，他是个总被其他事情分心的人。

So I'd say self reliance and on nature are the two that you absolutely have to read. But if you like what he's saying in those two, I would definitely run into this, go to secondary sources, and just read every essay that he ever wrote. He actually didn't write that much. He was a guy that was kind of preoccupied with other things.

那么你是什么时候转换方向，不再做仓库工作的？还是说你同时做着其他事情，然后逐渐淡出？下一章的生活是怎样的？

So when did you switch gears and do something other than the warehouse job? Or did you do something concurrent and then sort of fade something in while you're fading something out? What did the next chapter look like?

我想开始做播客。当时不知道是否可行，当然也没想过能以此养家。那时我还年轻，责任较少。我算了笔账。

I wanted to start the podcast. I mean, didn't know if it was possible. Didn't know I certainly didn't have a dream of doing it as like a living where it could provide for my family. At the time, I was much younger, so I had less responsibilities. I did some math.

我意识到每月需要赚800美元才能实现这个计划。当时有个叫斯科特的朋友和我一起弹吉他，他也给了我启发。他在杜克浓汤馆工作——那是西雅图的一家海鲜餐厅，当服务员。他妈妈总抱怨他。

I realized I needed to make like $800 a month to be able to do it. And there's this guy, Scott, I was playing guitar with at the time, and he inspired me here too. He worked at Duke's Chowder House. It's like a like a like a seafood place up in Seattle. He was a server, and his mom would give him crap all the time.

比如'为什么不找份正经工作？'而他整天弹吉他，晚上去杜克浓汤馆打工。我和他聊过这事，他说：听着，我不想当摇滚明星。

Like, just why don't you get a real job? And he would just play guitar all day and then go serving at Duke's Chowder House. And I would talk to him about it. And he's like, look. I don't want to be a rock star.

我也不指望靠这个成为百万富翁。只要能周末接几场演出或录音室工作，靠弹吉他谋生，我就算实现梦想了。在杜克浓汤馆打工只是安抚我妈的手段。

I don't wanna be like a millionaire doing this. All I wanna do is be able to play a few gigs on the weekend or some studio sessions or something. And then I'm playing guitar for a living. I am literally living the dream if I can do that. And Duke's Chatter House is just how I pacify my mom.

就是付点房租给她。对我来说，我需要通过播客月入800美元来承担家庭义务——当时我要付一半的房租水电。仓库那边有个'仅周末上班'的选项，不同于常态的每周七天待命。我在那里工作期间从没有固定休息日。

I just pay her some rent. Right? For me, it was like I needed to find a way to make $800 with the podcast that could satisfy whatever obligations I had at the home, my half of the rent and utilities at the time. So, at the warehouse, they had this thing weekends only. Instead of working seven days a week on call, which was the norm, I never had a scheduled day off my entire time working there.

我只在周末工作。这样能保证我固定出勤，而他们这样安排是因为那时无需支付福利套餐。某种程度上对公司有利。但对我而言这很完美，因为这样我一周能工作五天。如果我能通过播客和业余写作之类每月赚800美元，我就只需周末去上八小时班。这就是我逐步转向播客、淡出仓储工作的方式。

I would just work on the weekends. It would be a guarantee thing I'd come in, and the reason they would do it that way is because they don't have pay a benefits package at that point. Benefits the company at some level. But for me it was perfect because then I could work five days a week. If I could find a way to make $800 a month just doing the podcast and writing on the side and stuff like that, I just go in on the weekends, eight hours, you know, that was my version of phasing in the podcast and phasing out the, like, warehousing.

另一件我非常幸运的事。

Another thing I'm very fortunate to have.

让我们深入探讨这点。我对那些催化阶段特别感兴趣，就是几周内你从'也许我能做到但那些人不都是天才吗'到'好吧我决定只做周末工作'的转变。迈出这一步绝非易事，对吧？

So let's take a closer look at that. I'm so interested in the catalyzing periods, right? Like, what happened in the span of a few weeks where you thought, well, maybe I could do this, but aren't those people geniuses to, okay, I'm actually going to do weekends only Mhmm. And take that, which is a nontrivial step. Right?

没错。具体是怎样的过程？是有某次关键谈话？还是某个因为背痛狂吃止痛药的星期？怎么就从'在某个宇宙里或许可行但除非我是天才'变成了'好吧我一周就工作两天'？

Right. Like, what did that look like? I mean, was there a particular conversation? Was there like a particular week of just gobbling Advil because your back was bothering you? Like, how did it go from, you know, maybe kind of in some universe that's maybe possible, but don't I have to be a genius to, alright, I'm gonna work two days a week.

有两个原因。一方面我在那里工作多年，每天都背痛，某种程度上是彻底绝望。我痛恨那里的生活。现在三十多岁的我回想起来，其实当时没理由厌恶那份工作。

It was two things. On one hand, I'd been working there for years, so my back hurt every single day. It was utter desperation on one level. I hated my life there. Now, again, I look back now being in my thirties, and I I don't think I had any reason to hate what I had going on there.

但说实话当时确实如此，那是我的真实感受。所以我拼命想改变现状。记得有个叫吉米·怀森亨特的朋友，他当时是电竞解说员。

But I did at the time, honestly. That was my experience. And so I was very desperate to try to make anything work. There was a guy named Jimmy Wisenhunt. He was like a shout caster for esports at the time, but he was my friend.

我记得

I remember

电竞解说员

a shout caster.

解说员就像体育评论员，比如约翰·麦登解说橄榄球，这家伙解说《反恐精英》和《星际争霸》这类游戏。

Shout caster is like a person that does comedy, like John Madden does commentary for football. This guy does it for Counter Strike and Starcraft and stuff like that.

明白了，很酷。

Okay. Cool.

是啊。总之当时和他聊天时，他就那样，老兄，他把我拉到一边说，老实说，如果你不尝试涉足媒体行业，那真是太可惜了。你应该试试看。就算失败了又怎样，但我就是要告诉你这些。

Yeah. So anyway, was talking to him at the time and he was just like, look, man, he pulled me aside. And he was like, it would honestly be a shame if you didn't at least try something in media. Like, you should just try it. And even if you fail, like whatever, but I'm just I'm here to tell you.

那家伙对我影响太大了。

That dude had such an impact on me.

你们是怎么认识的？

How did you know each other?

那时候我也打游戏。常和朋友玩《星际争霸2》，水平还挺高的，认识些圈内人。在那个圈子里混嘛。所以他也在那些人脉圈里，我们挺合拍的。

I used to play games around this time too. I would play Starcraft two with friends and I was playing at a pretty high level, I knew people that were like in the business. In that world. So yeah, he was in their circles and stuff and we just kind of vibed.

不错啊。所以他劝你如果不尝试会遗憾，总得试试看。

Yeah, nice. Okay. So he's telling you it would just be a shame if you never tried. You gotta try something.

这话戳中我了。对于一个争强好胜的人，又恰好在仓库工作得生不如死的时候，确实让我想搏一把。至于那个爱默生的道理——我根本不需要多聪明，对吧？只要够胆说出来就行。

Yeah, that hit me, man. Like, I mean, for a person that's competitive and then a person that just is already hating my life at the warehouse at the time, like, yeah, it just it it made me want to take a chance. And then the the whole Emerson thing, I don't even gotta be a genius. Right? I just gotta be brave enough to say it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

感觉这事可行。

It felt possible.

你当时参考了什么？毕竟那会儿还是早期。具体什么时候？2012年2月还是2013年2月？

And what did you look to? Because this was early days. Right? I mean, when was this? Like, 02/2012, 02/2013?

对，差不多那会儿。非常早期。这么说吧，我们现在做的这个播客2014年才开始。你在播客领域比我资历还老呢。

Yeah. Something along those lines. So this is very early. And I mean, to put that in perspective, this podcast that we're on right now started that in 2014. So you predated me in the world of podcasting.

对于那些如今深陷播客选择悖论困扰的人们来说，那时的选择池要小得多。对吧？你当时以谁为灵感来源？某种程度上——虽不完全相同，游戏规则略有差异——但我要说这是极高的赞誉。你在某些方面让我想起丹·卡尔丹和他的《硬核历史》。

And for people who drown in the paradox of choice problem presented by podcast currently, back then, it was a much smaller pond. Right? Who did you look to for inspiration? In some ways, and it's not exactly the same, the game is a little different, but, and this is a I say this is a huge compliment. Like you remind me in some ways of Dan Carlin and Hardcore History.

他就是我当年在仓库工作时经常听的那个人

That's the literal guy that I used to listen to at the warehouse

一直如此。

all the time.

能听到这样的赞誉真是受宠若惊。

It's huge compliment to hear.

是啊。谢谢...好的。关于丹——不了解的观众可以查查，我采访过他，这位非凡的人物会第一个告诉你：他并非专业历史学家，对吧？

Yeah. Thank Okay. Yeah. So Dan, and for people who don't know, I've interviewed Dan, you can look it up, a phenomenal human. And he is not, he'll be the first person to tell you, professional historian, right?

他的简历并非无懈可击。但他让历史如此引人入胜。就像你说的，有勇气道出他人心声，但本质上我认为你们都在传递内心所想。丹分享的是他真正感兴趣的内容。

He doesn't check all the boxes on the CV. And yet, he makes it so compelling. And like you said, having the bravery to say what's in the hearts of others, but fundamentally, way I see it is you are sharing what is in your heart. Dan is sharing what is of interest to him. Right.

想象一下速不台将军俯视战场的画面。懂吗？就像...对。这段出自《可汗之怒》——想听精彩故事的可以去看看。我说'看'这个口误很有意思，因为他的语言极具画面感。

Imagine if you will, general Tsubadei looking down. You know? It's just like Yeah. And, that's from Wrath of the Cons if people want to watch Fantastic stories. And I say watch, that's an interesting slip because his language is so visually evocative.

没错。丹·卡尔丹。这就完全说得通了。还有其他让你觉得'或许我能借鉴这点或那点'的人吗？

Yeah. Okay. Dan Carlin. That makes a whole lot of sense. So is there anybody else who you're like, ah, maybe I can take a little bit of that, a little bit of that?

因为丹·卡尔丹也做超长系列。他的播客动辄四五部分，《可汗之怒》每集都有四五个小时——虽然具体时长是我瞎猜的。

Because Dan Carlin also does mega series. His podcasts are long. I mean, wrath of the cons, I'm making this up, but it's like four or five parts. Each one is like four to five hours.

确实。他太棒了。说到灵感来源，我记得当时刻意避免模仿他人。那时正听戴夫·查普尔的访谈，他提到迈尔斯·戴维斯或迪兹·吉莱斯皮初学小号时，完全是在模仿其他小号手的风格。

Yeah. He's he's fantastic. And I mean, in terms of inspiration, at the time I remember consciously not wanting to copy other people. In fact, I was listening to a Dave Chappelle interview at the time, I think, and he was just talking about how it was Miles Davis or Dizzy Gillespie or something like that. Just at the beginning of their career when they were playing trumpet, they just did an impression of another trumpet player.

这种现象在很多行业都能看到，人们甚至会不自觉地模仿他们心目中成功的样子。但当时我已经读了足够多的哲学书籍，真心不想掉入那个陷阱。我的意思是，我知道自己深受他的启发，所以不想听起来太像他。我希望能够发展出自己的风格。如果说有什么影响的话，那反而是种负面激励，因为我注意到哲学类市场存在一个空白。

You see this in a lot of industries where people will just be even subconsciously trying to do an impression of what they think success looks like. But I had read enough philosophy at that time to really not want to fall into that trap. I mean, I knew I was highly inspired by him, so I didn't want to sound too much like him. Wanted to be able to develop my own style. If anything, it was a negative inspiration because I noticed there was a gap in the philosophy sort of market.

我当时是个播客发烧友，会听些哲学内容来打发工作时间，对吧？是的。所以我注意到有很多真正聪明、才华横溢的人在做这类内容。比如彼得·亚当森的《无缝隙哲学史》，还有当时很火的《部分检视人生》。我就想做点更人性化、更具转化力的东西。

I was a big fan of podcasts, I would be listening to philosophy, just trying to find something to pass the time at work, right? Yeah. So I just noticed there were a lot of really smart, really talented people. Peter Adamson, history of philosophy without any gaps, Partially Examined Life at the time was huge. And it's like, I just wanted to do something that was a little more humanizing, a little more translating.

这就是我当时的全部想法。

That's all I was thinking.

好的。你承诺每周工作两天。还有其他承诺吗？明白了。那么现在你每周有五天时间。

Okay. And you commit to working two days a week. What else are you committing to? Alright. So now you have five days a week.

实验或原型阶段是什么样子的？你一开始就设定了某些限制条件吗？你是怎么处理的？对我来说幸运的是

What does the experimental or prototyping phase look like? Did you apply some constraints right up front? How did you approach that? Luckily for me, it

它很快就起步了。在正式启动前，我花了几个月研究如何运营播客。比如我会专门听关于播客制作的播客，阅读相关书籍，包括博客写作的，因为当时这方面的资源确实不多。那时候有种感觉——怎么说呢，用陈词滥调来说就是

took off fairly quickly. So I spent a few months before just researching how to launch a podcast. Like I would just listen to podcasts about podcasting. I would read books about it, about blogging too, because there really wasn't that much. Like there was feeling at the time that, I mean, what's the cliche?

广播之于电视，就像电视之于手机之类的，对吧？这种正在发展的窄播形式会大有可为，但具体怎么做根本没有指南。所以我开始研究如何抓住播客的启动红利期。没人真正清楚算法的工作原理，但有各种理论，我就尽可能研读所有能找到的理论。这就是我当时做的事。

The radio was to the TV, the TV is to the phone or something like that, right? Like the phone, this narrow casting that is developing is going to be big, but there's no playbook for how to actually do it. So yeah, I started researching just how to take advantage of the launch phase of a podcast. Nobody really knows what the algorithms are doing or why they're doing it, but there's theories, and so I would just read every theory I possibly could. And so, yeah, I mean, that's what I did.

播客上线当天，我让所有认识的人都去收听并留下真实评价，竭尽所能利用所有资源。第一周就登上了iTunes的新品推荐版块，算是取得了

On the day that I launched the podcast, I got everybody that I know to listen to it and leave an honest review, and I tried to take advantage of all that I could there. And so the first week I was on the new and noteworthy section on iTunes. It was a successful

开门红，不错。

launch, know.

之后不久，和我共同主持播客的人就开始联系我讨论广告事宜。当时我并不太想接广告，但你知道，节目发展得确实很快。所以很幸运没有经历太长的蛰伏期。

And then after that, people I host the podcast with started reaching out and talking about ads. I didn't really want to do ads at that point, but you know, it started taking off pretty quickly. So, you know, there luckily wasn't too much of a time period there.

如果要事后审视2020年，回顾并识别出其他一些关键决策，无论当时是否有意识地做出这些决定，你在播客发布时还做对了哪些事情？要知道当时发布和现在发布是截然不同的情况，但我认为仍有经验可以借鉴。

If you had to hindsight 2020, look back and identify some of the other, say, critical decisions, whether you made them really consciously or not at the time, what were other things you did right with the launch of the podcast? Recognizing that launching then and launching now are are quite different animals, but still, I think there are lessons to be learned.

我认为我尽可能让它成为'我'的产物。嗯。我全力投入了播客的这一特质。我喜欢丹·卡尔林的地方在于，感觉就像他就在那里和我对话。当时很多人把播客视为次要内容。

I think I just made it as much me as I could. Mhmm. I I I leaned into that aspect of podcasting. What I loved about Dan Carlin is that it just felt like I was there and he was talking to me. I think a lot of people at the time saw podcasting as like an afterthought.

它只是免费内容，用来引导人们进入销售漏斗，最终向他们推销付费内容之类，对吧？而我认为这是一个充满可能性的美妙媒介，可以是人们抽着大麻漫谈三小时的无主题对话，也可以是十分钟高度聚焦的...

It was just the free content so you could drive people to funnels to then sell them the premium content or something, right? I saw it as like a very open ended medium that was beautiful, and it could be a three hour conversation with people smoking weed, talking about nothing. It could be, you know, ten minutes of highly focused

真想象不出这是谁。是啊，我也猜不到。

Can't imagine who that is. Yeah, neither.

但这个模式非常成功对吧？算是相当成功。

But it's been highly successful, right? Mean, pretty successful.

应该说是最成功的。

I mean, the most successful.

可以这么说吧。不，重点是这个媒介的美妙之处在于它的多样性，明白吗？确实如此。这就是我的理解。所以我只想在这个领域走出自己的路。

You could say. No, but it's beautiful, the medium, how versatile it is, you know? It is. So that's what I saw. And so I just wanted to be my own lane there.

我不想成为'播客界'的一部分。我只想开自己的小店。比尔·伯尔在《无畏》系列访谈中说过：'我不觉得自己属于喜剧界，我只是做自己的事，可能勉强算喜剧吧'。他说就像在商场中央摆了个摊位，懂吗？

Know, I didn't want to be a part of podcasting. I wanted to just be a shop. There was an interview with Bill Burr on the Fearless series, he was talking about, I don't really see myself as part of comedy. I just sort of do my thing, and I guess I'm a part of comedy. I set up a stand in the middle of a mall, he was saying, you know?

这就是我的态度。从不去想什么是播客标准并迎合它，只是尽可能保持真实。我认为这是我做对的一件事。

That's how I see it. Like, just didn't think about what a podcast was and try to appeal to that. I just tried to make it as authentic as I could, and I think that was one good thing that I did.

明白了。据我了解，最初你是按时间顺序推进的？能否详细说说，因为处理西方哲学或任何哲学体系都有多种方式。你刚开始时每期节目时长是多少？

Alright. And in the beginning, my understanding is you approached it chronologically. Maybe you can explain because there are a lot of different ways you could approach the canon of Western philosophy or any philosophy, really. How long were the episodes when you started?

大约4000字长。那时候我读得比较慢，所以大概需要三十分钟左右。当时时间会有些波动，但差不多是这样。

About 4,000 words long. I've read slower back then, so it's about thirty minutes or so. It would vary back then a bit, but yeah.

那最初几期节目是关于什么的？

And what were the first handful of episodes?

前苏格拉底学派？第一期节目，现在听起来都让我难为情。最近我还得硬着头皮回去重听。

The Pre Socratics? The first episode, it's so hard to even listen to it. I've I've had to go back recently and like, listen.

我懂你的意思。

Mean I I get it.

这就是创作者的困境——我不是说现在仍喜欢那些节目的听众品味不好，但从我个人角度看，你懂的，看着十二年前自己第一次公开尝试的样子确实很煎熬。第一期节目简直就像...我刚提到'走出非洲'理论，说古人有很多空闲时间，所以他们经常交谈。而交谈催生了哲学，于是他们在爱奥尼亚海岸和意大利沿岸定居，这就引出了前苏格拉底学派。大部分内容都是我在讲述他们的生平故事之类。虽然粗糙，但从某种角度看也很美，因为这就是必须开始的起点。

It's just an artist's dilemma like you go I mean, I I'm not trying to talk down to anybody that enjoys those episodes still, just from my perspective, you can imagine it's it's tough to watch yourself, you know, twelve years ago now doing it for the first time publicly. The the first episode was literally like I would I just mentioned the Out of Africa theory and how, oh, yeah, people had a lot of free time back then, and they had to they they talked a lot. So talking leads to philosophy and this they they of settled around the Ionian Coast and the Italian coast and this led to the pre Socratics. It's just like most of the episodes are me just like telling stories from their life or something. It's brutal, but also beautiful in a way because it's where it had to start.

是啊。虽然不想过度类比，但这种对比确实很引人深思...

Yeah. I mean, is sort of striking not to like overwield the comparisons here, but

可能就像...

maybe like

就像你刚才描述的前苏格拉底学派故事，某种程度上也像是播客早期节目的起源，懂我意思吗？对，就像摸索阶段，寻找表达方式。试着培养对这件事的'水感'，不管它最终会变成什么。

the story of the Presocratics as you just described it, it's sort of like the origin of the podcast in the early episodes, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like figuring it out, finding the language. Yeah. Try to develop a water feel for what this thing is, whatever this thing happens to be, whatever it will be.

值得一说的是，很多人告诉我这正是他们喜欢的魅力所在。他们喜欢见证一个人多年来技艺的成长。只不过我的'试镜带'是公开给所有人看的。我是这么看待的。不过这样也挺酷的，我接受这一点。

For whatever it's worth, people tell me that's one of the endearing things that they like about it. They like seeing somebody kind of build their craft over the years. It's just my audition tape is on camera for everybody to see. That's how I see it. That's cool though, I'll take

是啊。那么到现在为止，你一共做了多少期节目了？

it. Yeah, yeah. Alright, so at this point, how many episodes have you done?

225.

225.

225。好的，频率是多少？

225. Alright, what's the frequency?

大约每两周一次。之前有段时间我大概一个月做一次这类事情，但最近我工作量大增，所以真的乐在其中。

About once every two weeks. Okay. There was a period there where was doing like one a month and stuff like that, but now I've I've been working a lot more lately. So I've been really enjoying it.

先快速感谢我们的一位赞助商，稍后马上回到节目。大约三周前，我在海拔一万到一万两千英尺翻越大分水岭时，背负沉重装备，急需所有能得到的帮助。那种情况下，我每天每夜都依赖Momentous的产品。老听众可能知道，我长期坚持使用并测试他们的全线产品。但你们或许不知道，我最近与他们合作精选了我的推荐组合。

Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show. About three weeks ago, I found myself between ten and twelve thousand feet going over the Continental Divide, carrying tons of weight, and I needed all the help I could get. And in those circumstances, I relied on Momentous products every single day and every single night. Now regular listeners probably know I've been taking Momentous products consistently and testing them, the entire spectrum of their products, for a long while now. But you may not know that I recently collaborated with them to put together my top picks.

我一直追求强健体魄和敏锐思维。当然两者缺一不可，而优质睡眠是基础。因此我设计的效能组合涵盖这三个方面：Creature Creatine用于肌肉和认知支持，分离乳清蛋白促进增肌恢复，镁3&8改善睡眠。Momentous所有产品都通过NSF和Informed Sports认证，这是职业运动员和奥运级别的检测标准。

I always aim for a strong body and sharp mind. Of course, you need both, and neither is possible without quality sleep. So I designed my performance stack to check all three boxes. Creature Creatine for muscular and cognitive support, Whey Protein Isolate for muscle mass and recovery, and magnesium three and eight for sleep. All Momentous products are NSF and Informed Sports certified, which is professional athlete and Olympic level testing.

标签成分绝对真实可靠。亲自试试看告诉我你的感受。访问livemomentous.com/tim，或结账时使用优惠码tim可享首单订阅35%折扣。网址是livemomentous.com/tim。

So what's on the label is exactly what you're getting? Try it out for yourself and let me know what you think. So just head to livemomentous.com/tim. That's livemomentous.com/tim, or use code tim at checkout for 35% off of your first subscription. That's livemomentous.com/tim.

Momentous拼写是m-o-m-e-n-t-o-u-s。Livemomentous.com/tim或优惠码tim享首单订阅35%off。好了，如果我们展望未来，审视你打造的这项事业、构建的生活，这个哲学化生态系统是怎样的？你有Patreon...

Momentous is m o m e n t o u s. Livemomentous.com/tim or code tim for 35% off your first subscription. Alright. So if we flash forward and we look at this craft you've developed, the life you've built, what does the philosophize this ecosystem look like? You have Patreon.

嗯哼，对吧？当前这个拼图有哪些组成部分？

Mhmm. Right? Like, what are the different pieces of the puzzle as it stands currently?

你是指从盈利角度来说吗？

Do you mean from, like, a monetization perspective?

对，从商业角度。是的。

Yeah. From a business perspective. Yeah.

是的，我有Patreon，现在也接广告，还有这本2026年出版的书约，算是进军另一个市场吧。整个项目以播客为核心，所以这确实是关键部分。

Yeah, I have Patreon, I have ads that I run now, and I have this book deal that's going be good for 2026, like kind of emerging into a different market there, the pod. It is centered around the podcast. So yeah, that's kind of core.

你提到最初没打算接广告，大概第几期节目开始做的？

And you mentioned you initially weren't planning on or pursuing advertising. Around what episode did you start doing advertising?

记不清了，大概是我儿子出生那期。我在神坛前祈祷听众能体谅——毕竟我做了这么久免费节目。现在想活久些，毕竟不知何时会死。总得给孩子们留点保障，万一哪天我撒手人寰。

I'm not sure. Around the episode that my son was coming into the world. And and I I prayed at an altar that people listening would be like sympathetic to the fact that I've been doing it for so long with no ads. Now I'm trying to live longer on this planet, don't know when you're gonna die. I'm just I'm trying to leave something for my kids if I kick the bucket one day.

明白，完全理解。

Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

不过按你问的时间线算挺近的，可能是第180期左右吧。

Alright. It's it's been fairly recent though to the rest of your question. It's like, I I don't know, maybe episode 180 or something like that.

好的。我之所以希望是这个答案，是因为你能长期专注打磨内容，而不是像我这样容易分心去琢磨营销这类更轻松的事。

Yeah. Okay. So there we go. The reason that I was hoping that the answer would be something like that is that you were able to hone the craft for a while, for a pretty good long while before distracting yourself with the preoccupations or maybe the easier path in my case. Right?

当我不想写作时，就会想讨论营销策划——因为这简单得多。但你长期专注于探索定位、精进技艺。对于能做到这点的人，我强烈推荐这种专注模式，效果真的天差地别。

If I don't wanna write, what do I wanna do? I wanna talk about and think about brainstorm marketing and these things because I find it much easier. But you, for a very good stretch of time, were able to focus on figuring it out, finding your footing, honing the craft. And for people who can make that work, I just wanna say I recommend it very, very highly to have that type of focus. It just seems to make a lot

我尝试过营销。播客的好处在于听众会主动支持——不一定是金钱，可能是专业技能。做了十二年，常有专业营销人员主动提供帮助。

of difference. I mean, I've tried marketing things. One of the good things about podcasting is that people will reach out and they'll want to support and they won't want to support financially, they'll support with skill set. Professional marketers or whatever will come along and offer. I've been doing it twelve years, so I've done things like that.

我不是营销专家，但坚信内容才是核心。烂内容配上顶级营销或许能成功，但如果是让人离不开的优质内容，根本藏不住。所以我长期专注内容质量，绝不发布我认为不值得观众期待的东西。

I am not an expert in this field, and I just feel that when it comes to content, the content is the number one focus for me. If you do bad content, you may be able to market it amazingly, and then that'll be successful in some way. If you do amazing content that people don't want to live without, you can't keep it a secret. That's why I focused on that for so long. I would never put something out that isn't content that I I hope people don't wanna live without.

目前最受欢迎的几期节目有哪些？有没有特别突出的？

What are your most some of your most popular episodes to date? Do any stand out?

大家真的很喜欢我刚刚做的陀思妥耶夫斯基系列。

People really like the Dostoevsky series that I just did.

我们在开始录音前就讨论过这个，因为我当时在试图弄清楚，戴夫是不是第一个通过这个向我介绍哲学的人？有可能。或者我发在推特上的一篇帖子更早，那时我正在听，可能是在车里，也可能是在优步之类的车上，但我拍了照片或截图。我确实记得很清楚，应该是在我车里。

We were talking about this before we started recording, because I was I was trying to figure out, was Dave, you know, just the first person who introduced me to Philosophy with this? It's possible. Or did a post I put apparently on Twitter predate that where I was listening to it, I think in my car, could have been in an Uber or something like that, but I took a photograph or a screenshot. And I do remember that really clearly. I think it was in my I think it was in my car.

因此，我正在整理我的待听清单，并自私地利用这个问题来做笔记。

And for that reason, I'm putting together my to listen list and just using this question selfishly so I can take notes

绝对没问题。

on Absolutely.

我应该拿些什么。

What I should grab.

陀思妥耶夫斯基？从去年十月左右开始，我正在做一个关于宗教现象学的新节目系列。它探讨哲学的局限性，二十世纪初的现象学运动，以及哲学与宗教之间的桥梁。宗教是否只是与天上之神这种人的肤浅联系？

Dostoevsky? So from about last October, there's a new arc of the show that I'm doing that's on kind of religious phenomenology. It's about the limitations of philosophy. It's about phenomenology as a movement at the beginning of the twentieth century and this bridge between philosophy and religion. Is religion just this superficial connection to a man like God in the sky?

还是对上帝的信仰远比这深刻？它是某种更具体、更日常化的实践。对我来说这非常迷人，不知为何大家也很喜欢。如果你想找个起点，我会根据你的兴趣推荐。

Or is a belief in God something much deeper than that? It is something much more embodied in a daily practice every day. It's been really fascinating for me and people have been really liking it for whatever sort. So if you're looking for a place to start. But I'll say this, if I'm ever recommending a place for people to start, I just ask them what they're into.

那么你对什么感兴趣呢？

So what are you interested in?

让我想想。如果我有愿望清单的话——也许这就是我找到的你那期节目——我在阅读塞涅卡时意识到，虽然这种看法很粗略简化，但我觉得斯多葛学派似乎很擅长自我调节（在他们状态好的时候），却不擅长甚至可能反对在某些方面最大化快乐。而在《致卢基利乌斯的道德书简》中，小塞涅卡不断引用伊壁鸠鲁。

Well, let's see. I mean, I'll tell you if I had a wish list, and this maybe this is the episode that I tracked down of yours, I'm not sure. I, in my reading of Seneca, realized, and look, this is gonna be a very sloppy, simplified way of looking at things, but I was like, okay. The Stoics seem really good at self regulation Yeah. On their good days, but they don't seem great at, and it may be even antithetical to them to maximize joy on some And in the moral letters to Achilles, Seneca the younger keeps referencing Epicurus.

这背后有个相当有趣的故事：他采用这种修辞手法是为了说‘好吧，你们喜欢伊壁鸠鲁主义是吧？随便’。

And there's a whole backstory that's pretty interesting as to why he was doing that. It was a rhetorical device to be like, okay. Okay. You guys like Epicureanism? Sure.

这点我同意。他是个很棒的人。看看他说的这句精彩的话。现在让我引入我的论点以及我想告诉你的内容。但由于一些与伊壁鸠鲁主义相关的原因，我追踪文献的能力相当有限。

I'll give you that. Great guy. Look at this amazing thing he said. Now let me lead into my argument and what I wanna tell you. But my ability to track down writing for a number of reasons related to Epicureanism has been pretty limited.

这会在我的愿望清单上。我要说斯多葛学派总是很好的提醒，尽管有些人可能觉得我刚把他们扔到了公交车下，但我仍然是斯多葛主义的狂热粉丝。然后我想说，这可能不太有帮助，但我可以把这个问题反过来，也许请你帮忙寻找那些极其实用的哲学体系或哲学流派，比如，好吧。我现在正经历家庭医疗问题的非常艰难时期。尽管我很享受深入探讨高深概念性哲学讨论的氛围，但我现在需要的是实用工具。

That would be on my wish list. I would say the Stokes are always good reminders even though some people might feel like I just threw them under the bus, but I still remain avid fan of stoicism. And then I would say, and this is not gonna be very helpful perhaps, but I could turn this question around and maybe ask for your help in finding philosophical systems or philosophies, schools of philosophy that are imminently practical, where it's like, okay. This is something I'm going through, for instance, now, very challenging period with medical issues in my family. And as much as I enjoy getting into the rarefied air of deep conceptual, philosophical discussions, I'm like, no.

就像，我压力山大，睡眠困难，还有焦虑的反复思考。除了我熟悉的那些方法外，我还想有一些工具来应对这种情况。所以这个回答有点绕。

Like, I am stressed the fuck out and having trouble sleeping and, like, have anxious rumination. I would like some tools in addition to the ones I'm familiar with for delving into that, So that's a bit of a meandering answer.

不，不，一点也不。我是说，听到你家人的事情很遗憾。你基本上是在谈论希腊化时代。你在谈论伊壁鸠鲁主义，你在谈论斯多葛主义。还有另外两个，怀疑主义和犬儒主义。

No, no, not at all. So, I mean, sorry to hear about your family. So you're talking about the Hellenistic age basically. You're talking about Epicureanism, you're talking about Stoicism. So there's two more there, skepticism and cynicism.

犬儒主义以第欧根尼的思想流派闻名。我认为这四种哲学体系据说都代表了苏格拉底性格的某些方面，只是发展成了各自的体系。所以，也许填补这一块会是很酷的事情，因为这样你就能了解整个时期了，对吧？实用方面。你不是经常冥想吗？

Cynicism famously is the school of thought of diogenes. I think all four of these, it's been said, represent some aspect of the character of Socrates just turned into its own system. So just, I mean, maybe fill that out might be a really cool thing to do because then you'll know the whole period, right? Practical stuff. Don't you do meditation a lot?

我是说，是的，做。

Mean, is Yeah, do.

是的。现在我每天冥想两次。

I do. Right now I meditate twice a day.

好的。那么这种练习对你来说是功利性的吗？比如你做它是为了平息焦虑？你是怎么看待它的？

Okay. So is that practice framed in like a utilitarian way for you? Is it like I'm doing it so that I can quell anxiety? How do you think of it?

是的，我会说我有几种不同的看法。所以厚颜无耻地插一句，我要提一下Exit，它太好了。有个应用叫The Way。Henry Shukman是老师。它是三宝禅宗导向的。

Yeah, I would say there are a few different ways that I look at it. So shameless plug, I'll just mention exit, is so good. There's an app called The Way. Henry Shukman is the teacher. It is Sambo Zen focused.

我是通过Kevin Rose认识Henry的。实际上，Kevin让他在播客上出现过。谢谢你，Kevin。我要说，在某种程度上，它对我来说是非常功利的。如果我早上用它启动，十分钟就够了，晚上用它放松。

I was introduced to Henry. Actually, had him on the podcast by Kevin Rose. Thank you, Kevin. And I would say that on one level, it is very utilitarian for me. If I use it to boot up in the morning, ten minutes, that's it, and I use it to wind down at night.

如果我将冥想作为一天的开始和结束，就会发现我的基础焦虑水平降低了。因此这种方式非常实用。虽然冥想练习并非专门针对焦虑设计，但更准确地说，它们是在训练对不同类型觉知的掌控能力——通过收缩和扩展觉知范围，让你不再 compulsively 陷入思维漩涡。你可以走出洗衣机门观察自己的念头，甚至能退到房间外自问：我究竟为何待在这个房间？或许我该换个空间等等。

If I have it as bookends on my day, I just find that my resting anxiety level is lower. So it's very, very practical in that way. And the exercises in the meditations are not explicitly geared to deal with anxiety, but they're more, I would say, training awareness of different types and contracting and expanding awareness in ways that allow you to not be compulsively in the washing machine of your own thoughts. You can step outside of the door of the washing machine and look at your thoughts, and then maybe you can step outside of the room and ask yourself, what the hell am I doing in the in this room in the first place? Maybe I should go to a different room, etcetera, etcetera.

这是其一。此外我认为冥想练习还有更深层——或者说其他维度的收获，这些并非源于对症状的针对性处理，不知这么说是否清楚。

So there's that. And then there are, I think, deeper I don't wanna say deeper, but other layers of payoff from the meditative practice that are not driven by that type of kind of symptom addressing, if that makes sense.

当然清楚。哲学固然美妙，但绝非万能解药。我不会向所有人推荐它，也不认为它能解决——就像你谈到的缓解焦虑，指望哲学家或哲学来解决这个问题本身就是个陷阱。真正的解药在于你所说的日常实践，这已超出哲学范畴。

No, for sure. I think philosophy is wonderful, obviously, but it's not a panacea. And it's certainly not something that I would recommend to everybody and it's not something that solves I just think that what you're talking about, about quelling anxiety, it's a trap, I think, to try to think a philosopher or a philosophy is going to fix that. Think it's more in a daily lived practice like what you're talking about. And that lies outside the bounds of philosophy.

我们刚做节目讨论过某位哲学家的名言：没有哲学的宗教是盲目的，没有宗教的哲学是空洞的。若只把哲学当作智力游戏，而不愿真正被它改变，那就失去了意义。我可以列举十位实用主义哲学家及其体系供你研究，但对我而言，哲学更是动态过程——它是动词而非名词。

There's a quote from philosopher we were just doing an episode on where he said, religion without philosophy is blind and philosophy without religion is vacuous. It's like you can just kind of make philosophy into like an intellectual exercise, but not be open to it in any way that really is transformative. So I can list you 10 different practical philosophers and their systems and stuff like that if you want to study them. But like for me, philosophy is more a process. It's a verb.

就像著名哲学家西蒙·布莱克本在《思考》书中描述的：哲学是概念工程学。这个比喻很精妙——工程师了解桥梁的原材料与结构关联。给他看某座桥，他能指出承重缺陷。哲学家同样如此：他们是世界观这座桥梁的工程师。

It's not a noun. It's like Simon Blackburn, famous philosopher wrote a book called Think and he describes philosophy as conceptual engineering. It's a great metaphor. An engineer looks at a bridge and they know about the raw materials of the bridge and they know how they connect to other parts of the bridge and everything. If you can show an engineer one bridge, a particular bridge, and he'd be like, well, it holds weight over here, but if we put weight over on this side, it's gonna all start crumbling down.

世界观由通过假设联结的概念构成。哲学中的概念不过是我们划分和理解现实的方式：人是概念，树是概念，民主是概念，爱或许也是概念。哲学家动摇这些概念的僵化定义，让我们以新视角看世界——系统化地主动进行这种思维重构。

Philosophers do this with worldviews. The philosopher is the engineer, and the worldview is the bridge. Worldviews are made up of concepts that are linked together by assumptions is how I think about it. A concept in philosophy, whatever it's worth, is just the way we chop up and make sense of reality. So, like, a person is a concept, a tree is a concept, democracy is a concept, love may be a concept.

对情绪困扰者而言，打破固有认知框架、建立新概念图谱或许有益。但我绝不会将其奉为圭臬——比如当你因家庭问题痛苦时。哲学对我帮助很大，但需要多年修炼才能做到：体悟思想而不盲从，真正开放地接纳转变。总之我认为哲学在此领域有其局限。

So our worldviews are piecing these things together based on assumptions, and philosophers are the people that are shaking up those rigid definitions that we have of these things and allowing us to see the world in a new way, and the systematized practice of doing that deliberately. So I do think for somebody that's struggling emotionally, being able to be good at that skill of shaking up their static definitions of how things are in the world and seeing it in a new conceptual tracing, that is valuable to that person potentially. I I just would never prescribe it as like the way, if you're feeling bad about some real issue in your life with your family going through problems. For me, it's been really helpful, but I think it takes years to even get to the place where you can embody ideas without necessarily accepting them, where you can like really entertain and be open to these things in a way that they can change you. So anyway, I would just say I think philosophy is limited here.

我同意其局限性，但对我而言可称之为必要不充分条件。你提到需要多年修炼，但我想举个今日重温的哲学概念为例——Amor Fati（命运之爱）。为这次对话准备午餐时，它帮助我完成了认知重构。

I think it's limited, but it's for me, I would say I could think of it as necessary but not sufficient, if that makes sense. And you mentioned years, but I will give an example of something that is not new to me, but revisiting it today in preparation for this conversation. This is a philosophical concept. I mean, you don't even really need the modifier philosophical if it, complicates things for people listening, but Amor Fatih. So this is something that helped me over lunch while I was preparing for this because it helped me to reframe.

能否为不熟悉的听众解释下这个概念？

Could you explain what this is for people who may not be familiar?

当然。这个概念可能早于斯多葛学派，但我最喜欢尼采的阐释——Amor Fati意为对命运的热爱。许多宗教传统或生活经验都教导我们放弃抵抗，而它主张...

Sure. Yeah. I mean, it goes back probably before the Stoics, if we're being honest. But my favorite formulation of it is a Nietzsche where he's talking about, mean, amor fati translates into love of fate. It's the idea that so many traditions in the religious sectors or just in our everyday lived experience are renunciative.

他们旨在否定我们自身或现实的某些方面，试图使其变得更好。尼采说过，Amor Fati（命运之爱）将是他生活的方式。意思是，从今往后，他将对一切说‘是’。他宣称自己将成为一名‘肯定者’。这是一种对现实的积极态度，即使事物糟糕、不适或可怕，我们也要如实地肯定现实，而非将其理想化为不存在的模样。

They aim at denying some aspect of ourselves or of reality in an attempt to try to make it better. Nietzsche said, Amor Fatih is how he is going to live his life. Mean, henceforth, I mean, everything he is going to say yes to. He will be a yes sayer is what he says. This is an affirmative stance towards reality, where even if things are bad or uncomfortable or horrible, we're going to affirm reality as it is and not idealize it into something that it's not.

人们常这样做——即便不信仰宗教——仿佛现实欠他们什么。但全然肯定现实意味着接纳好坏参半。不是为其合理化找借口，也不是通过某种方式消解苦难。真正肯定生活和现实，就是置身其中，让生命本身成为充分的理由。是的，我认为这本质上就是我的Amor Fati（命运之爱）的真谛。

It's very common for people to do, even when they're not religious, is to think of reality as though it owes you something. But to affirm reality fully is to accept the good, the bad. It's not to rationalize about it and to try to make excuses for it or frame your suffering in a way where it makes it go away. To truly affirm life and reality is just to be in it and to have life itself be enough truly. So, yeah, I mean, I think that really is the essence of a more fati for me.

而我自己将这套理论‘自助化’的方式——这简直可以成为我未来某本书的标题或章节——如果你想把它简化成非常自助向的内容，我最终的做法是：好吧，我该如何夸大这种理念，使其超越单纯的接纳？比如，如果我必须找到方法以积极视角赞美现状，我必须这么做。这是对当下一切发生的义务。

And, I mean, the way that I self help bastardize this for myself, just that's a that could be a book title or a chapter in one of my forthcoming books. But if you wanted to bastardize this into something very self helpy, I mean, what I ended up doing is like, okay. How could I exaggerate this to go beyond acceptance? Like, if I actually had to find a way to praise to view in a positive light, I had to. That was an obligation with everything that's going on right now.

我该怎么做？同时意识到如果对每件事都如此，你会戴着玫瑰色眼镜四处碰壁。但具体到眼下情况，好吧，既然我一直过度关注无法控制之事，深陷挑战与困境——不仅是现在，未来几年可能持续如此——那就坐下来问问自己：这里有什么转机？

How would I do it? With the recognition that if you do that with everything, you end up running around with rose colored glasses and you're gonna whack your head on a lot of corners. But in this particular case, like, okay. Let me try really hard since I've been so focused on the things I can't control or aware hyperaware of them. And the challenges and the hardship, not just now, but that are gonna probably be sustained for quite a few years now, that sitting down and just asking myself, what are the silver linings here?

如果必须透过积极镜头看待此事，我会看到什么？仅用午餐时十分钟这样做，我的皮质醇水平和静息心率可能就大幅下降了。虽然尼采大概会在坟墓里为我翻个身——

If I had to view this through a positive lens, what would I see? Just doing that over lunch for ten minutes, I'd probably rest you know, dropped my cortisol and resting heart rate tremendously. And that may not be maybe Nietzsche's turning over his grave with me just, you

知道吗，我正朝这个方向推进。我认为这是我们之前讨论的冥想实践功利性框架的延伸。顺便说一句，我不认为这应该成为反对它的理由。就像人们开始冥想是因为它能帮助缓解焦虑、改善睡眠或提升四倍生产力之类的。但如果这能引领你进入更深层次的觉知阶段，那时它就不再是为了某种功利目的而做的事了。

know, I pushing this way. I I think that it's an extension of what we talked about with the meditation practice being utilitarian framed. And by the way, I don't think that should be a knock against it. Like people get into meditation because it's going to help them with anxiety or sleep better or 4X their productivity or something like that. But if that's what gets you to the deeper stages of that, of like your awareness, where it's no longer something you're doing for some utilitarian end.

我是说，这很美。哲学家维特根斯坦在《逻辑哲学论》结尾有个著名比喻，他谈到书中所有论证如何将我们引至此处。而现在你基本上可以扔掉整本书，因为我们已经到达新境地。他将其比作梯子——生活中常有这样的对话，比如关于幸福的讨论。

I mean, that's beautiful. There's a famous thing from the end of the Tractatus by a philosopher named Wittgenstein, where he talks about how all these arguments in this book have led us to this point. And now you can essentially throw out the entire book because we've gotten to this new place. He's talking about like, he compares it to a ladder. It's like so often in life, we'll have a conversation about happiness, say.

怎样才能幸福？获得幸福的最佳方式是什么？然后你攀爬这个梯子，最终抵达新境界时，所有这些对话让你获得生活的新视角，之后关于幸福的讨论就显得有些无谓，甚至天真。但正是通过这些对话，你才得以到达下一阶段。维特根斯坦说你要把梯子从脚下踢开。

How do I become happy? What's the best way to be happy? And then you climb this ladder, and then at the end of getting to this new place, all these conversations get you to this new perspective in life, and then all the conversations about happiness just seem kind of pointless, just kind of naive almost. But it was only by having those conversations that got you to this next place anyway. Wittgenstein talks about how you kick this ladder out from underneath you.

你爬上梯子利用它，然后从脚下踢开不再需要。我认为这就是对修行或更形而上事物的功利态度。否则你如何达到更深层次的理解？谁又能断言那就是更深的理解？或许这就是你在生活中运用它的最佳实践方式。

You climb up the ladder, you use it, and then you kick it out from underneath you and you don't need it anymore. It's just, I think, the utilitarian approach to practice or to this, like a more fati thing. How else are you going to get to deeper levels of understanding of it? Who's to even say that that's a deeper level of understanding? And maybe this is just the best practical way for you to be using that in your life.

我绝不会因此指责你。

I would not knock on you at all for doing that.

是的，谢谢。我很感激。

Yeah. Thanks. I appreciate that.

我对此表示接受。

You have my acceptance there.

我想请教你，也许这对大家会有所启发。对我而言，某些哲学思想几乎像是操作系统。斯多葛主义在某种程度上就是其中之一，它为你提供建议或指导，教你如何在特定情境下重新构建或应对。嗯。我接下来要提到的并非互斥，还有一种哲学，当我阅读它时，就像让雪花球静置下来。

I would love to ask you, and maybe this would be helpful for people to hear. In my case, there are certain philosophies that for me are almost like operating systems. Stoicism would would be one in some respects where it gives you recommendations or instructions for how you might reframe or respond in certain circumstances. Mhmm. And what I'm about to mention are not mutually exclusive, but there's also philosophy that if I read it, it just lets the snow globe settle.

对吧？阅读过程本身就带有一种内在的平静。比如塞内卡的某封信。有一封我觉得特别滑稽。它像是《论愤怒》的缩影，他在信里抱怨住所楼下某种浴场和健身房，人们汗流浃背、摔打器械、杠铃砸地，把他烦得要命。

Right? It's sort of intrinsically calming just in the process of reading. That could be, say, one of Seneca's letters. There's one that I just thought was so hilarious. I mean, it's kind of a microcosm of on anger where he's bitching and moaning about some type of bathhouse and gym below where he's living, and they're, like, sweaty and slapping things around and dropping weights and it's bugging the shit out of it.

这既滑稽又让人感到亲切——原来我不是唯一一个对这些小事暴躁过度的急性子混蛋。随后他给出了一些建议，但还有些作品光是阅读本身就让我感到平静。我想知道是否有任何哲学家、广义上带有哲学倾向的作家，或某些哲学思想对你也产生过这种效果？

And it's just so hilarious and also humanizing to be like, oh, Okay. I'm not the only impatient asshole who's running around overreacting to these little things. And then he offers some suggestions, but there are other things that I find very calming in and of themselves to read. And I'm wondering if there are any philosophers, writers, broadly speaking, with a philosophical bent or philosophies that had that effect for you.

我个人不把哲学当作一套生活准则。我认为它是反应性的。世界永远处于'生成'状态，不断向未来演变。在我看来，哲学家的工作就像拍摄一张美丽的快照供人观赏，但现阶段我并不想以此作为生活指南。

I personally don't look to philosophy for a set of protocols to live by. I think it's reactive. I mean, the world is always in a state of becoming. It's always changing into the future. And I think I see a philosopher taking a snapshot in their work as a beautiful picture to look at, but not something that I really want to live by at this point.

顺带一提，二十多岁时哲学曾给过我巨大帮助，但就目前而言——绘画不是《蒙娜丽莎》，不是梵高的《星月夜》，绘画是个动词，是个过程。

I used to, by the way, when throughout my twenties, it helped me immensely, but just for whatever it's worth at this point, this is just where I'm at. It's almost like painting is not the Mona Lisa. Painting is not Starry Night by Van Gogh. Painting is a verb. It's a it's a process.

对我而言，哲学正是如此。它是世界另一种概念轨迹的具象化。

For me, this is what philosophy is. It's the embodiment of a different conceptual tracing of the world.

那具体是什么样子？如果用'傻瓜版哲学概念轨迹'来解释的话？

So what does that look like? I guess if we were to just put it in philosophical tracing for conceptual tracing for dummies. Right?

没错。

Right.

在你的生活经历中，那是什么？也许一个例子会是什么样子

What is that in your lived experience? What would maybe an example look

嗯，这是一个日复一日为节目出现、阅读一位哲学家并真正尝试暂时体现他们工作的迭代过程。但这是暂时的。这不是我所接受的。我没有把它附加到我看待世界的方式上。这几乎就像是为了那些也想了解这位思想家的其他人而进行的方法派表演。

like Well, of the iterative it's process of showing up every day for the show and reading a philosopher and truly trying to embody their work for a moment. But it's provisional. It's not something that I'm accepting. I'm not tacking it onto the way that I see the world. It is just almost method acting a thinker in service to these other people that want to know about the thinker too.

我的意思是，这确实是一个和谐的过程，而且很有趣。但是的，我确实尝试在不接受它们的情况下娱乐这些想法。这给了我很多平静，因为我意识到，我是谁并不是一套固定的协议。这是一个奇怪的矛盾混合体，有时我会同时有两种感觉，我会从这个思想家和那个思想家那里取一些片段并将它们组合起来。就我个人而言，这就是我如何看待哲学的。

I mean, really is a harmonious thing that's going on and it's fun. But yeah, I mean, I really do try to entertain ideas without accepting them. And it's given me a lot of peace because I just realized, like, who I am is not one set of protocols. It's this weird mix of contradictions, and I I feel two ways simultaneously sometimes, and I'll take pieces from this thinker and that thinker and put them together. Just for me personally, that's more how I'm seeing philosophy.

这是我正在参与的练习。用你的比喻来说，雪球通过更个人化地参与这个练习而安定下来。

It's this exercise that I'm engaged in. The snow globe settles, to use your metaphor, by being engaged in that exercise more personally.

所以如果我们看斯蒂芬·韦斯特的版本一，或者可能是你二十多岁时版本3.5，那时你可能对这些事情有不同的看法，有没有我们还没有提到的特定哲学、哲学家或著作？

So if we're looking at Stephen West's version one or maybe like version 3.5 in your twenties when maybe you had a different lens on these things, were there particular philosophies or philosophers or writing that hopped out that we haven't touched on?

是的。我的意思是，尼采在我早年生活中非常重要。之后克尔凯郭尔也非常重要。因为我在二十出头时意识到，让我开始思考哲学的是理查德·道金斯的《上帝错觉》和山姆·哈里斯的《道德景观》。我想那时候还有《给基督教国家的信》。

Yeah. I mean, Nietzsche was huge for me early on in my life. Kierkegaard was very big after that. Cause I I realized in my early twenties, I mean, what kinda got me thinking about philosophy was The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins and The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris. I I think at that time was Letters to a Christian Nation.

这是当时正在进行的新无神论运动。我以前从未读过任何哲学，所以我认为这些人向我展示了思考世界的可能性。所以我来自那个新无神论的起点。我曾经在互联网上不停地与人争论这类事情。这就是互联网存在的意义。

It's this whole, like, new atheism sort of thing that was going on at the time. I had never read any philosophy before, so I thought I mean, these people showed me what was possible to, like, think about the world. And so, I mean, I come from that, like, new atheist beginning. I mean, I I used to just argue with people on the Internet incessantly about that kind of stuff. And That's what the Internet's paid for.

是的。我当时非常年轻。我记得多年来，我只是把每一个宗教论点都当作无稽之谈，就像绝对的天上人一样。然后我读了克尔凯郭尔，我开始对整个问题有了完全不同的思考，关于人们用来描述普遍人类经验的语言。我的意思是，克尔凯郭尔谈论上帝，他是一个基督徒。

Yeah. I mean, I was very young. So I remember for years, I just wrote off every religious argument as just nonsense, just like an absolute, just man in the sky stuff. And then I read Kierkegaard, and I just I started thinking totally differently about the whole question, about the language that people use to describe universal human experiences. I mean, Kierkegaard talks about God, and he is a Christian.

他描述了他那个时代教会正在经历的危机。但我记得有一天它像一吨砖头一样击中了我。我想，哦，我听说唱音乐，他们用不同的词，但我能感同身受，因为我在感受他们所感受的。我们都是人类。我可能不是来自英格尔伍德之类的地方，但我能理解他们在这里所说的。

He's describing a crisis in the church that's going on during his time. But I remember it being like, it just hit me like a ton of bricks one day. I'm like, oh, I listen to rap music and they use different words, but I can relate to it because I'm feeling what they're feeling. We're both human beings. I may not come from Inglewood or something like that, but I can understand what they're saying here.

他们用不同的词。当我这样接近克尔凯郭尔和更普遍的宗教对话时，它完全震撼了我。然后这引导我走向西蒙娜·薇依，她一直是我最喜欢的五位哲学家之一。是的。

They're using different words. And when I approached Kierkegaard like that and religious conversations more generally, it just, it totally rocked me. And then that led me to Simone Wei, who's been top five favorite philosophers ever for me. Yeah.

好的。你刚才说的那个名字，姓氏怎么拼写？

Okay. That name you just gave, how do you spell the last name?

W e I l。好的。

W e I l. Okay.

那怎么发音？我甚至都不知道。Vey。Vey。好的。

And how do you pronounce that? I don't even know. Vey. Vey. Okay.

西蒙娜·维。不管怎样，这是另一种语言的发音。只是个愚蠢的美国人。

Simone Vey. And for whatever it's worth, it's in another language. Just a dumb American.

我肯定至少搞砸了十几次。

I've definitely fucked that up at least a dozen times.

我只是个愚蠢的美国人。可能完全是另一种发音。

I'm just a dumb American. It could be something totally different.

你知道，如果我们把我在这播客里所有的发音错误加起来，我的意思是，那会和我写的电话簿一样厚。

You know, if we added up all of my mispronunciations on this podcast, I mean, it would it would be the size of one of my phone books that I write.

老兄，她太不可思议了，因为她生活在二十世纪初那个时代。她对马克思主义、资本主义、法西斯主义以及所有这些正在发生的事情都非常怀疑。她有这个能力。她很聪明。她上过学。

Dude, she is incredible because she just is living in this time in the beginning of the twentieth century. She's very skeptical of Marxism and capitalism and fascism and all these things that are going on. She had the ability. She was smart. She went to school.

她本可以留下来当教授，坐在书桌后面写一辈子文章。但她放弃了大学的职位，自愿去工厂工作，只是为了体验前线工人的生活，尽可能地去理解它。她不想活在理论中。她不想对工厂工人的生活只有理论上的理解。她想亲身经历。

She had the ability to stay and be a professor and just sit behind a desk and write for the rest of her life. She got out of her position at the university and went and worked in a factory voluntarily, just to see what it was like to be somebody working on the front lines, to try to understand it as much as she possibly could. She didn't want to live in theory. She didn't want to have some theoretical understanding of what it was like to be a factory worker. She wanted to be there.

她有一种关注的概念，伙计。她在日记里写的例子就像，你在和某人交谈时，可以这样处理对话：这个人对我有什么用？他们说的每一句话，如果我在寻找相似之处，那也只是与我已有的观点相符。是的。这个人能为我做什么？

She just has this concept of attention, man. Her example that she writes in her journal is just like, you're talking to somebody, you can approach that conversation and filter every bit of it through this idea that like, what use is this person serving to me? Everything that they say, if I'm looking for similarities, it's just so far as it's commensurate with the way that I already look at things. Yeah. What can this person do for me?

这段对话让我感到乏味。它没有——或者说存在一种方式，可以不通过你所有的个人议程和计划来过滤他人，而是如实地看待他们。这就像一种自我清空，类似'虚己'的状态。你只是尽可能尝试在他们自己的主场接纳他们。

The conversation is boring to me. It doesn't or there's a way to not filter the person through all of your own agendas and projects, but just to see them as they are. It's like a self emptying. It's like, kenotic. You just try to receive them on their own home ground as much as you possibly can.

这完全是另一种框架，当我第一次读到这个概念时，它彻底改变了我的生活。所以这是我会记录下来的一点。

And it's a totally different framing, and it literally changed my life when I first read about it. So that's something I would write down.

好的。让我们更深入聊聊这个'自我清空'。是某个特定的措辞或你读到的故事让你醍醐灌顶吗？之后你是否尝试在生活中运用它？能否详细说说它如何产生影响的？

Okay. Let's talk more about that, the self emptying. Was it a particular phrasing or story that you read that hit you like a ton of bricks? Was it then trying to use it in your life? Can you say more about how it was impactful?

当然。她讲述的并非什么特别的故事。就像她大部分未打算发表的私人日记一样——但我当时如同遭受当头棒喝，因为我正意识到自己像现代许多人那样具有强烈的自恋倾向。

Sure. It was not a special story that she told. Again, like most of her writing in particular, she never intended for it to be published. She just it was just personal journals. But it hit me like a ton of bricks because I was realizing at that time that I had very narcissistic tendencies as a lot of people do in the modern world.

我认为当我们没有神明可崇拜，没有外在仪式可遵循时，最终往往会崇拜自己。自恋就像一种默认状态，稍不注意就会陷入其中。她这么说时我才恍然大悟——天啊，这正是我的写照。那时我大概25岁，但直到32岁才完全领会。

I just think when we don't have gods to worship and external rituals to follow, you just end up worshiping at the altar of yourself oftentimes. And narcissism is like a default that you can sort of fall into if you're not careful about it or aware of it. So when she said this though, and I was just, oh my God, that's exactly what I'm doing. I mean, was like 25 or something at the time. And then it really didn't hit me fully until I was like 32.

我突然意识到自己每次与人接触，都是在用'对方能为我做什么'的框架看待他人，而非思考'我存在于这个关系网络中的意义'。这种感觉太震撼了。

Like just how much every encounter that I'm having is just framing people in the world in terms of what it can do for me rather than for what purpose do I exist in this network around me. And it was incredible.

那么或许可以看看——不知这么说是否冒昧——这是否与你刻意保持最小数字足迹的决定有关？这是个合理的问题吗？

So maybe looking at, I don't know if it would be too presumptive of me to say a reaction to that, but can you speak to your decision, if it is a decision, to have as small a digital footprint as possible? Is that a fair question?

合理。不过我觉得纯粹是才能不足。老实说，根本没人会在意我的足迹。

It's fair. I think it's just a lack of talent. Think it's a I mean, generally speaking, that's what's going on there. Nobody wants my footprints in there.

肯定不止如此。肯定还有更深层的原因。对吧？

There's gotta be more to it. There's gotta be more to it. Is it? Yeah.

我是说，你

Mean, you

如果你想的话，完全可以在TikTok上跳编排好的舞蹈。

could be doing choreographed dances on TikTok if you wanted.

不，我做不到。这就是你错的地方，蒂姆。不。我是说，人们会给我邀约，但我尽量保持生活简单，比如修剪草坪。

No, I couldn't. That's where you're wrong, Tim. No. No, I mean, what do you like, mean, people give me offers. I try to keep the grass cut, I guess.

我的生活哲学之一就是保持简单。我有妻子和孩子，有这档节目，仅此而已。我热爱这样的生活方式。

I mean, one element of it is I try to keep my life simple. Yeah. I have my wife and kids. I have the show, and that's about it. I mean, I love it that way.

我喜欢能全情投入这些事，而不是脑子里同时装着十件事。支持节目的人让我得以过上如此简单专注的生活，我对此深怀感激。

I love being able to be fully present in these things and not have 10 things going on in my head. And the people that support the show make it possible for me to live a life that simple and that focus. So I'm just super grateful.

为了追求简单，你是否训练自己坚决拒绝或警惕某些事情？有没有给自己定下某些规则？

What are things, if any, that you've trained yourself to categorically say no to or be wary of in service of simplicity? Do you have certain rules for yourself?

是的。我经常为了意义牺牲效率。《每周工作四小时》这本书改变了我，它激励我建立生活准则。这些年我尝试过各种效率提升法，但最近几年发现，如果脱离任务本质，我反而会精疲力竭。

Yeah. I mean, I really do sacrifice efficiency for meaning pretty often. Reading the four hour work week was transformative for me and it really put a fire underneath me to like find a way to come up with protocols to live my days by and everything like that. I've done so many different productivity type efficiency things over the years. The last few years, I just I'll find myself burning out if I separate myself from the task.

追求效率时我个人会很挣扎——当然我知道听众里有很多高效能人士，我很敬佩你们。但对我个人而言，比如规划「接下来四小时工作，然后和尤达宝宝在山顶冥想，再和猫...」这种安排会让我很痛苦

If I do things for efficiency, personally, and I also realize who I'm talking to here. I know the people that listen to this show are I have so much respect for what you guys do and how you can be peak performers and all that stuff. It's just for me personally, I struggle with it. I struggle when I'm giving myself, okay, the next four hours and then I'm gonna meditate with baby Yoda on top of a mountain and then I'm gonna do a Me and my cat are

你是通过监控摄像头观察我的保姆吗？

gonna report You did watching my nanny cam?

所以我常为意义牺牲效率，这让我不是最高效的。但我告诉自己这是长期投资——二十年后我仍想为家人保持创作热情。如果写作没状态或研究没灵感，我就去陪家人或找朋友戴夫聊天。

So yeah, it's just I will sacrifice efficiency for meaning a lot of times, and it doesn't make me the most productive. The way I justify it to myself is like it's a long play. I want to still be doing this for my family in twenty years. Want to still be writing and loving what I'm doing. So if I'm writing and I'm not feeling it or I'm researching and I'm just not in it, then I will go and hang out with my family or I'll go and do something else, talk to my friend Dave.

这就是我给自己划定的界限吧。

So, that's a line that I set for myself, I guess.

是的。如果要我补充些什么，确实有许多可以添加的内容，但若要更新——虽然我并不打算这么做，因为不想‘踩到蝴蝶’（比喻干扰原有成功因素），毕竟我也不清楚第一本书究竟如何取得那样的成功。要让我去推断其中缘由，未免显得狂妄自大。但如果真要补充几点，其中之一便是过度珍视时间并将其视为人生不可动摇支柱的危险性。我的意思是，在某种程度上适度重视时间是有益的——剂量决定毒性，这是帕拉塞尔苏斯的观点——但可以引申为：学会评估时间价值是项重要技能，尤其在早期阶段，它能帮你判断哪些事值得委托他人，哪些不值得。

Yeah. I suppose if I were to add something to, there are a number of things I would add, but if I were to update, which I don't think I'll do because I don't want to step on the butterfly so to speak, because I don't know how that first book really did what it did. I think it would be arrogant to me to think that I I could even really deduce what happened there. But if I were to add a few things to that book, one of them would be the dangers of valuing your time very highly and making that an immovable pillar of your life. What I mean by that is on one level to a certain degree, right, and the dose makes the poison, that's paracelsus, but you can apply it here, which is learning to value your time is a valuable skill that allows you to learn, especially in the early stages, what makes sense to delegate and what does not.

对吧？区分值得与不值得做的事。这样你才能逐渐培养能力，后续进行二八分析、自动化处理等书中提到的各种方法。但如果你给自己设定某个数值——无论模糊还是精确——来定义每小时时间的价值，就可能陷入‘时间浪费焦虑’：每当花一分钟做你认为低效的事都会痛苦不堪。这种生活方式最终会让人备受煎熬。

Right? What is worth doing versus what is not worth doing. And so you start to develop the ability to then later do things like eightytwenty analysis and automation and all of the things that are in that book. However, if you land on some type of number, whether it's ill defined or very precisely defined for what you are worth, what your time is worth per hour, you can end up feeling the agony of wasting time anytime a minute is sacrificed doing something that you don't think is high leverage. And that ends up being a very painful way to go through life.

嗯，我深有体会。

Yeah. I feel that.

没错。对我来说，就像你精辟表述的那样——‘为意义牺牲效率’。但我想补充的是，当你开始聚焦意义时，其实能更精准地选择‘做什么’。如果说有效性是‘选择做什么’，效率是‘如何做好’。看似矛盾的是，当你为意义牺牲效率时，反而能做出更有利长期的选择，就像你说的，服务于长远布局。

Yeah. So for me, it's like I have more and more, and I really like the way you phrased it, sort of sacrificed efficiency for meaning. But I would also say that when you start to focus on meaning, I think you get better at choosing the what. If effectiveness is the what of what do you do, so choosing what to do, and then efficiency is how well you do something. I think paradoxically, perhaps, when you start to sacrifice efficiency for meaning, you make better long term choices, like you were saying, in service of the long game.

对。

Right.

对吧？要玩好长期游戏——至少据我观察——首先得清楚自己参与的是什么游戏。

Right? And to play the long game, at least as far as I can tell really well, you have to know what game you're playing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而这一切都需要一定程度的自省——但若你以效率之名，用500英里的时速在红区狂奔，就会剥夺这种自省能力。

Right? And all of that requires a level of introspection that you can rob yourself of if you are trying to operate in the red zone at 500 miles an hour in the name of efficiency.

是的。我并非反对效率，只是建议将其列为第二或第三优先级。毕竟你学过那么多效率技巧，做事时自然会在某个层面保持高效。

Yeah. I'm not saying don't be efficient. Just make it a second or third order priority. Know? And with as much work as you've done learning efficiency techniques, I'd imagine you can't help but be efficient at a certain level when you do things.

这已成为你本能的一部分。

So it's just part of your embodied world.

我觉得我做的事情里大概有10%是默认超高效的。然后我想人们如果看到我日常生活的上半部分，可能会感到恶心和震惊，他们会想，他在干嘛？他就像个软件故障的扫地机器人。他在家里到底在做什么？

I think there are like 10% of the things I do are default hyper efficient. And then I think people would be disgusted and shocked if they were to. I've seen like the first half of my day to day, they'd like, what is he doing? He looks like a Roomba with bad software. Like, what is he doing in his house?

我完全不知道现在发生了什么。

I have no idea what's happening right now.

我问了些尖锐的问题。

I asked the hard hitting questions.

我知道。准备这次对话时没预料到这个转折，但我越来越觉得，谁知道呢？也许未来这会成为一本书，只是我写得太慢了。所以我需要要么提高写作速度，要么找到更好的形式。或许是播客。就是长期布局。

I know. Didn't see this turn of events when I was prepping for this conversation, but I do think more and more, I mean, who knows? Maybe that's a book in the future where they take me too long to So I need either need to get faster at writing or I need to find a better format. Maybe it's podcast. Just the long game.

长期布局意味着什么？对吧？因为在反应迅速、现代、数字饱和的环境里，很容易被拽进别人设计的短期游戏里。

What does it mean to play the long game? Yeah. Right? Because I think in a reactive, modern, digitally saturated environment. It's very easy to get pulled into short games that are not of your own designing.

是啊。然后会对所有行为产生疏离感，像从外部审视自己。这是我过去纠结的，现在虽然不纠结了，但每天仍需保持觉察。

Yeah. And then to feel quasi alienated from everything you're doing, like you're looking at yourself from the outside or something. Mean, me, this is what I struggle with, right? Yeah. So I mean, I don't struggle with it anymore, but I have to be conscious about this every day for that reason.

我这里有几点关于探索性要点的线索，我们可以深入讨论。可能已经涉及过了，但冒着重复的风险，我要说的是哲学帮助我们成长的非显而易见方式。这是什么？

So there are a couple of cues I have here related to exploratory bullets, things that we can dig into. And maybe we've already covered it, but at the risk of repetition, I have here the non obvious way that engaging in philosophy helps us grow. Right. What is that?

就像我之前说的，哲学总是活在受赞誉事物的阴影里。比如人们会问：谁会在乎哲学？我们不是已经在用前所未有的方式思考问题了吗？

I just think, as I said before, philosophy always lives in the shadow of the thing that we give credit to. There's many examples of this. Like, it's kind of related to a conversation of like, why would anybody even care about philosophy at all? I mean, it would definitely be something that I would think. We're already thinking about things the best we've ever thought about them before.

看看科学领域。为什么需要老头子们争论不可验证的推测？这种质疑忽略了正是哲学让我们达到现在的认知水平。

Look at the sciences. Why do we need old men yelling at each other about unverifiable speculation? Why do you need philosophy? And what that point misses is that philosophy is how we got to the point where we're looking at the world in the way we do now. Some examples of this.

牛顿的巨著叫《自然哲学的数学原理》，因为运动、光学、粒子关系这些内容在他之前属于自然哲学范畴。心理学直到19世纪末才成为独立学科，此前关于身份认同和人际行为的问题都属于哲学范畴。

I mean, Isaac Newton, big name in the sciences apparently. His big book is called Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy, one of has natural philosophy in the title. It's because the things he's talking about in that book, motion, optics, the relationship of particles, this is the domain of natural philosophy before Newton comes along and writes this landmark work, then it becomes a specialized field. I mean, another example, psychology isn't a specialized discipline until the end of the nineteenth century. Before that, questions like identity and how we behave around other people.

这些问题属于心灵哲学、伦理学、认识论范畴，取决于你的学术背景。再举一例，苏格兰启蒙运动的亚当·斯密撰写了《国富论》，堪称现代资本主义思想的基石。但他最初并非经济学家，而是一位伦理哲学家。

These are questions in the philosophy of mind, in ethics, in epistemology, depending on what background you come from. One more example, Adam Smith, Scottish enlightenment, wrote the Wealth of Nations. It's like a cornerstone of modern capitalist thought. But he wasn't like an economist at first. He was an ethical philosopher.

他开始追问：我们想为民众保障怎样的生活？何为美好人生？如何对待他人？这些思考最终升级为经济学层面的讨论，进而演变为资本主义。我的观点是：在这个进程的任何节点，都可能有人质疑——我们为何需要哲学家对人类心智或相处之道进行抽象思考？

He starts asking questions about what sort of lives do we want to guarantee for people? What is a good life? How do we treat other people? This is what then scales up into his conversations at the level of economics and then turns into capitalism. My point is that any point along the way here, somebody could come along and say, why do we need these philosophers abstracting about the individual human mind or something like that, or how to treat each other?

我们已在用前所未有的方式思考问题。我想强调的是，哲学的作用正是提出那些当下看似古怪的疑问，它们终将成为未来的最佳实践。这种追问永不停歇，此刻仍在继续，既存在于个体生活中，也体现在我们力求日益精进的对话层面。

We're already thinking about things the best we ever have. What I'm saying is this is the role of philosophy, is to ask questions that seem a little bit wonky to us living during this moment, but they will become the best practices of tomorrow. And this will always be going on, and it's still going on today. And it goes on in the lives of individuals and at the scale of the conversations we're trying to have better and better conversations.

如果我们深入探讨'更优质的对话'，至少对我而言，阅读哲学著作——甚至包含深刻命题的小说——带来的显著益处在于：我们已发展出惊人技术，拥有绝佳框架和科学方法，本质上是为了避免自欺并验证假设。嗯，对吧？

So if we go and double click on better conversations, I mean, what strikes me, at least as one of the benefits I've derived from reading philosophical works and, honestly, it could even be a novel with interesting questions, which is what I wanna focus on. We have developed incredible technology. We have this fantastic framework, scientific method for principally not fooling ourselves, but testing hypotheses. Mhmm. Right?

科学方法或许始于提问，但据我观察——也欢迎指正——它本身不会自动帮人们提出更好的问题。嗯。至少作为补充，哲学对我而言始终是孕育优质问题的沃土。

Which may start as a question, but I don't find, and I'm happy to be disproven here, but that the scientific method itself helps people to generate better questions automatically. Mhmm. And at least as an adjunct, that philosophy for me has been fertile ground for finding good questions.

顺便说，这种哲学思考存在于所有专业领域。博士学位中的'PH'代表哲学是有原因的。任何领域的最高抽象层面都是哲学。若想在某个领域登峰造极并推动其发展，就必须颠覆该领域现有的公理体系和既定范式——这本质上就是在践行哲学。

And by the way, that goes on in every one of these specialized disciplines. The PH in PhD stands for philosophy for a reason. I mean, the highest level of abstraction in any field is going to be philosophy. If you're somebody well educated in a field at the top of your field, in order to make progress in that field, have to subvert the existing set of protocols and assumptions axiomatically that are going on in that field. To move the field forward, you have to be doing philosophy.

科学固然美妙，但在实验情境下它是模块化、专业化且技术性的。你说得对，任何领域的顶尖学者都必须进行哲学思考，这延伸到我们生活中提出优质问题、探索新视角的层面。

And science is wonderful, but I mean, is compartmentalized and specialized and technical and I mean, all the things that it is when we're just talking about an experimental setting. I think you're right. Anybody at the top of these fields has to be doing philosophy, and that extends to asking good questions in our lives to try to come up with new ways of seeing things.

我很好奇，既然你希望未来十到二十年以某种形式延续这项事业，你如何看待其形式演变——或许'演变'这个词都不准确？你选择了一个前人未涉足的精准赛道，反而为播客提供了比多数节目更强的生存保障。我坚信这种专注性为音频形式注入了强大的抗脆弱特质，对吧？

So I'm so curious. Since you are hoping to do this ten, twenty years from now in some form or fashion, how do you see it adapting, that may not even be the right word, changing over time in terms of format, and there may not be a need to do that. And I I feel like you, by choosing a very well defined narrow lane that had not been filled before, you actually have more existential health insurance for your podcast than most podcasts by being that focused. I I actually I very firmly believe that that you have much more anti fragility built into it for surviving in an audio format. Right?

尤其是考虑到节目时长，我不认为它会被迫转向视频形式来获取流量。或许视频有优势，但至少短期内可以作为可选项而非必选项。你预期未来会有哪些变化？你提到的图书项目算是一种形式拓展，可能开启新机遇。

It's not the type of thing, especially given the duration that I feel would be forced into video for discovery. Maybe there are benefits to be had, but it can be an option and not an obligation perhaps for at least a period of time. How do you anticipate this could change over time? I mean, you mentioned the book projects. That's one way of kind of diversifying format, maybe opening new doors.

你如何规划这场长期博弈？

But how are you thinking about playing the long game?

我是说，我当然不会限制自己必须按计划行事。我觉得我会继续沿用让我走到今天的方法。真的，我只是在倾听人们想听什么，然后每天坚持出现，迭代式地努力做到最好。这种方式会变化，但不会是刻意计划的。

I mean, I'm not restricting myself to a plan, certainly. I I think I'm just going to continue with what got me to the dance. I mean, I I genuinely have just been listening to people tell me what they want to hear about and showing up every day, I mean, iteratively, like, just trying to do it the best I possibly can. That that will change. But it won't be planned.

我想我会继续倾听听众的需求。你问题的核心可能是——比如我个人希望有天能写哲学小说，不想永远只教哲学，而是把哲学思想融入作品，用不同方式呈现。

I think that I'll just keep listening to the listeners and see what they want to do. Here's the heart of your question, maybe something you want. Like, I would like to write philosophical fiction at some point. I would like to not be like teaching philosophy forever. I would like to just incorporate philosophical ideas and maybe deliver it in a different way.

这算是个...外围的可能性吧。

That's like a like outside possibility.

我不这么认为。我会像解说员那样。真的？哦，真的吗？

Don't think so. I'll be I'll be like the shout caster. Really? Oh, yeah. Really?

我不觉得这是个外围想法

I don't think it's an outside think this

就是现在。

is the moment.

不觉得是——对了我们还没录音。我不认为那是个外围可能性

Don't think it's an yeah. We haven't recorded. I don't think that's an outside possibility

你觉得人们会喜欢通过小说形式接受这些哲学思想吗？只要——

at You think people would enjoy hearing about these philosophical ideas delivered to them in fiction as as long as

尤其当表达方式巧妙时。如果不像当头棒喝，而是像特洛伊木马那样传递——虽然这个比喻有点牵强——就像药裹着蜜糖。嗯，绝对可行。人们已经被吸引了，只是他们未必会这么描述。

I'm a decent Especially if it's not banging them over the head in the sense that if it's more of a Trojan horse and you are delivering, this is not this is a bit of a strained metaphor, like delivering the medicine with some honey. Mhmm. Absolutely. I think people are drawn to it already. They just wouldn't necessarily describe it that way.

感觉我写这些节目稿时——写作量真的很大。前几天我出于兴趣写了点小说，突然发现和写节目稿是同样的创作过程，只是内容虚构罢了。技能迁移的方式很有趣。

Feel like I'm writing these episodes and it is a lot of writing. Like I the other day started writing some fiction just for fun on the side. I was like, wow, I'm doing the same thing that I do when I write the episodes. It's just like not real. It's interesting how the skills translate over.

是啊，也许某一天吧。

Yeah, maybe Maybe someday.

哦对，对。我想说这并非遥不可及。特别是，我的建议是——虽然冒昧给出未经请求的建议——但在出版界积累些经验后，尽管希望不是策略，但可以基于你已取得的业绩记录来规划和期待。那些市场验证听起来冷冰冰的，但你用首部作品证明了，尤其凭借固有读者群，它会成功。

Oh yeah, yeah. I would say I don't think that's an outside chance. Right, particularly, I mean, here's what I would say. My recommendation, if I could be so audacious to give you completely unsolicited advice, but in the world of publishing, have a couple of rounds under the belt. I would say hope, even though it's not a strategy, but like hope and plan based on the track record that you've produced so far, the market validation that sounds so sterile and terrible, but that you've proven with what you've done that your first book, particularly with your built in audience will do well.

那么作为思维实验，当你获得偏离自身标签的创作自由后，你会做什么？答案或许是小说。对，那里面蕴含大量哲学思考。

So then as a thought exercise, what do you do once you have bought yourself permission to do something that deviates from what you are known for? Right. And then the answer might be fiction. Yeah. That has a lot of philosophy embedded.

所以这个假设性计划值得思考，否则很多人会因首本书意外成功（虽事后可预见）而被迫推出续作——或因经纪人、出版商或家人施压，最终重复同类内容。就像我写了《每周工作4小时》后若续写《每周工作3.5小时》，就会陷入类型陷阱。我之所以接着写《4小时身体》，就是为了保留回头路。

So I think that is a helpful hypothetical plan to think on because otherwise what happens to a lot of folks is they have a book that is unexpectedly to them, although in retrospect, it could have been predicted successful, which just means it buys you the right to have a second book. But because they feel pressure from an agent, a publisher, a family member, whatever it might be, to try to capitalize on the success, they end up doing version two of the same book. Or they end up doing, in my case, the three hour workweek, then the two and a half hour workweek, so on and so forth. And when you travel that path, you end up painting yourself into a genre corner, which is the reason I did the four hour body after this the four hour work week, because I knew I could always go back to the first thing. That's a two way door.

换言之，若首部书大获成功，第二本尝试突破却失败，你总能回归原点。

In other words, if you have the first book that's a huge smash, you try the second book, which is off menu, but it's really something you wanna try and doesn't work, you can always go back to the first.

你怎么看待播客？就像陀思妥耶夫斯基分期发表小说，在报纸上连载获取稿费。你的播客是否类似持续连载的书，或许第200到250期就能成书？

How do you think of the podcast here? Like, Dostoevsky wrote books in installments. Would release them in papers. Got paid and he would release a couple chapters at a time or something like that. Was serialized.

是否将播客视为永远在创作中的系列化书籍？

Much like podcasting. Do you see your ongoing podcast as a serialized version of a book that you're just always writing and maybe episode 200 through two fifty is a book or

我的目标、不安和恐惧每周每月变化太大，难以归纳。虽然可能存在主线，但我不这样归类。我把播客当作实验室或工作室，像喜剧演员测试脱口秀素材那样——通过听众反馈测试话题，观察嘉宾对问题的反应。

I would say my goals and insecurities and fears vary too much week to week, month to month for me to spot. I'm sure there are three lines, but I I wouldn't group it in that fashion. I view the podcast as my laboratory or my workshop, maybe both, where I can, much like I've seen comedians do, for instance, even on the podcast, I've had comedians who later I realized were testing material they were going to incorporate into their special. Right? And I will kick things around that test the waters, see how my audience responds to guests, see how guests respond to certain types of questions.

当获得七次积极信号后，可能将其发展为单集节目，再根据反响决定是否写成博客。但需警惕过度依赖观众反馈对创作者身份的侵蚀风险。

And then I'm like, okay. I've got, at this point, seven out of seven positive signals. Yeah. Okay. Maybe I turn that into a dedicated episode that's a solo episode.

我深知过度依赖受众信号对个人创作身份存在重大风险。

I see how that's received. Maybe I turn that into a blog post, and I see how that's received. Knowing all the while that there is a, I think, a significant risk to your identity to over relying on audience signal. I really think you can