#831: 漫画传奇弗兰克·米勒 —— 创作历程、《黑暗骑士归来》、《罪恶之城》、《300勇士》及其他

大家好，男孩女孩们，女士们先生们。我是蒂姆·费里斯，欢迎来到《蒂姆·费里斯秀》新一期节目。我的工作是解构各领域顶尖人物的成功之道。今天的嘉宾可以说是我期待了一辈子的人——从我还是个小毛头时就崇拜他，更为了这次面对面访谈筹备了无数个月。他就是独一无二的弗兰克·米勒。作为娱乐界最具影响力且获奖无数的创作者，弗兰克·米勒最早因七十年代末对漫威《夜魔侠》的革命性重塑而声名鹊起。

Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show where it is my job to deconstruct world class performers across all different disciplines. And my guest today is, in a sense, my lifetime, a lifetime in the making since I've been a fan since I was a wee lad and certainly many, many months in the making to do this in person with the one and only Frank Miller. Frank Miller is one of the most influential and awarded creators in entertainment, first gaining notoriety in the late seventies for his transformative work on Marvel's Daredevil.

在漫画界，弗兰克是个异类。他有点像博·杰克逊那种全能型天才——不仅是同代人（甚至跨越数代人）中整个行业最具影响力的画家之一，更是最杰出的作家之一。这种双重天才的组合在西方尤为罕见，稍后我会详细说明。

And in the world of comic books, Frank is a rare breed. He's kinda like Bo Jackson in that sense. Not only was he one of his generations, probably across multiple generations, one of the most influential artists in that entire industry, but one of the most influential writers. And that is a very, very, very uncommon combination of talents, particularly in the West. And I'll provide more context.

继《夜魔侠》之后，他陆续创作了《浪人》、《蝙蝠侠：黑暗骑士归来》、《蝙蝠侠：元年》等颠覆行业的作品。后来蝙蝠侠电影里那些反英雄定位和视觉风格，很多都直接源自他的创作。他的《罪恶之城》系列和获奖图像小说《300勇士》均被改编为卖座大片，其中《罪恶之城》由米勒与我奥斯汀的老友罗伯特·罗德里格兹共同执导——罗德里格兹之前也上过本节目。弗兰克即将出版的自传《推墙：我的人生、写作、绘画与叙事艺术》现已开放预售，所有相关资讯可在Frank Miller Ink官网获取。

After Daredevil, he went on to create some of the industry's most groundbreaking titles, including Ronin, Batman, the Dark Knight Returns, and Batman year one. So if you've seen the later Batman movies, that sort of antihero positioning, the imagery, a lot of it comes straight from his work. His series Sin City and the award winning graphic novel 300 were both adapted into blockbuster films with Miller co directing the Sin City movies with Robert Rodriguez, who is my friend here in Austin, has been on the podcast before. Frank's upcoming memoir, Push the Wall, my life, writing, drawing, and the art of storytelling is now available for preorder. You can find all things Frank at Frank Miller Inc.

网址是frankmillerinc.com（ink要拼写为I-N-K），Instagram账号@FrankMillerOfficial。闲话少叙，接下来请享受这场我期待已久、包罗万象的实用对话——与独一无二的弗兰克·米勒。

That's I n k, frankmillerinc.com, and on Instagram at Frank Miller official. And without further ado, please enjoy a long awaited for me and wide ranging practical conversation with the one and only Frank Miller.

极限最小值。在这个高度，我能全速奔跑半英里才会手抖。能问你个私人问题吗？不能。我们正在见证它。

Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start to shake. Can I answer your personal question? No. We're just seeing it.

脱离肉体是什么感觉？我是生化人——活体组织覆盖金属内骨骼。弗兰克，见到你真高兴。幸会。

What it's like to be out of I'm a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal endoskeleton. Frank, so nice to see you. Good to see you.

刚和我们共同的朋友罗伯特·罗德里格兹通完电话。我确信

And just got off the phone with our mutual friend, Robert Rodriguez. I'm sure that

这个名字还会再出现的。嗯。是的。

name is gonna come up again. Am. Yeah.

我确信这个话题还会再出现。在我们深入讨论罗伯特之前——谢谢罗伯特的介绍——我想先聊聊我们录制前短暂讨论过的一个话题，关于亚里士多德。对。好的。为什么亚里士多德会出现在对话中？

I'm sure that's gonna come up again. And before we even get close to Robert, thank you, Robert, for the introduction, I want to pick up on something we were chatting about briefly before we started recording, and this is Aristotle. Yes. Alright. Why did Aristotle come into the conversation?

亚里士多德对幸福的定义是将全部精力投入到追求卓越的事业中。我认为这是一个普适性原则，在理想状态下应该贯穿生命的每一刻，这也是创造性生活的指导准则。

Aristotle's definition of happiness was a devotion of all of one's energies along lines of excellence. I believe that that is a general application that, you know, in an ideal life would apply to every moment you have, but it is a guiding principle to a creative life.

那让我们看看现场这些道具，我要拿出手机——当时我正在阅读《推墙：我的写作、绘画与叙事艺术》的早期样书，做了很多标注，还特意用Kindle拍下了PDF里的重点内容。现在我想分享几个细节，可能有点奇怪，但我总是痴迷于具体事物。这些都是你常用的工具：黑翼石墨铅笔、白颜料、印度黑墨水、液体留白胶、橡皮擦、貂毛笔，后面还列了更多——温莎牛顿7系列，主要是3到12号等等。

Let's then take maybe some of my props that we have here, and I'm gonna go to my phone because I was reading an early copy of Push the Wall, My Life Writing, Drawing, the Art of Storytelling, and I took a lot of highlights, and I had to take photographs of the PDF on my Kindle to look at some of them, and I wanted to go through a little list. This might seem strange, but I tend to obsess on the specifics. These are some of the tools of your trade. Blackwing graphite pencils, white paint, India black ink, liquid frisket, erasers, and sable brushes, and then it goes through description of a lot more. Windsor and Newton series seven, mostly sizes three to 12, etcetera.

我有几个问题想问，包括关于这把牙刷——我信赖的飞溅效果制造者。液体留白胶到底是什么？

A few questions that I wanna ask about, including the toothbrush, my trusty spatter maker. What is liquid frisket?

液体留白胶本质上是胶水。最早是油画师用来制造高光效果的。画家会先在画布上涂这种胶水，然后覆盖颜料。在宣告作品完成前，他们会擦掉留白胶，让底层颜料透出闪亮效果。

Liquid frisket is essentially glue. Okay. It was first called that and used by oil painters to create highlights. What the painter would do would we would lay down strokes of this glue across the paint, then paint across it. And then before declaring the painting finished, he or she would then wipe up the brisket, and you would have this sparkling piece of the underpainting showing through.

因此它能创造出非常强烈的高光效果。我喜欢配合墨水使用，因为它能制造混沌元素。

And so it creates a very dramatic highlight. I like to use it with ink because it creates an element of chaos.

一种混乱的元素。所以从某种意义上说，你似乎是一个在混乱中茁壮成长或通过制造某种混乱而兴盛的人，而我手中拿着的这个怪物——对于只听不看的人来说，我膝上正放着一个感觉重达20到35磅的东西。我带着它在纽约街头行走时，引来许多异样的目光，因为它的大小就像一张用于拍摄双肺X光的X光片。它巨大无比。这就是弗兰克·米勒的《罪恶之城：艰难告别》。

An element of chaos. So you seem to be a, in a sense, someone who thrives in chaos or by creating certain types of chaos, and this monster that I'm holding, for those who are listening and not watching, I'm I'm holding something in my lap that feels like it's 20 to 35 pounds. I was carrying it around, walking through New York City, getting a lot of odd looks because it's it's a rectangle about the size of an X-ray plate you would use to take a X-ray of both lungs. It's gigantic. Then this is Frank Miller's Sin City, the hard goodbye.

我想打开这本书，直接读一段里面的内容。这是来自吉姆·李的评语，他是漫画界的另一位传奇人物，也是我心中的英雄。曾经有段时间，我在普林斯顿大学担任《普林斯顿虎报》的美术编辑，和他担任过同样的职位。事实上，我在一张办公桌里还发现过他的一些旧草图。以下是他的评价：‘即便过了二十五年，弗兰克·米勒的《罪恶之城：艰难告别》依然展现了漫画媒介的全部潜力。’

And I wanna just open this up, and I'm gonna read something from right inside. This is from Jim Lee, another legend in the space, another hero of mine. For another time, I used to have his job at the same college as graphic editor of the Princeton Tiger. Found some old sketches of his in one of the desks, in fact, but here's his quote. Even after twenty five years, Frank Miller's Sin City, the hard goodbye showcases the full potential of the comics medium.

它以鲜明而辉煌的明暗对比，在这个日益浮华数字化的世界里，依然是一封 defiantly 永恒的手工艺情书，致敬往昔岁月。我从工具话题转到这里，因为当我看着其中某些页面时——我会提供一些作为B卷素材等等——比如看着这样的作品，我只想说，这简直是杰作。任何一页单拿出来都能挂在墙上，但这是序列叙事艺术。我有很多问题，其中之一是关于那种生命力，那种将所有能量倾注于卓越的专注。我想在关于你的纪录片《美国天才》中也提到过，你仿佛在‘攻击’画页，能感受到一种真实的动能传递。

A stark, brilliant chiaroscuro, it remains a defiantly timeless, handcrafted love letter to the days of old in an increasingly slick and digital world. And I segued from the tools because when I look at some of these pages, and I'll provide some of these as b roll and so on, you know, looking at something like this, I'll just show that to the I mean, it is a masterpiece. I mean, any one of these could be on a wall by itself, but this is sequential storytelling. And I have many questions, but one of them is about kind of aliveness and that channeling all of your energies into excellence because, and I think this came up in the documentary about you as well, American Genius, that you kind of attack the page. Like, there seems to be a real kinetic channeling of energy

没错。

Right.

倾注到画页中，在这个特别的版本——策展人收藏版里清晰可见。当你创作我手中这本书时，那种感觉是怎样的？

Into the page, which you can see in this particular version, the curator's collection. What did it feel like when you were making this that I'm holding?

非常身体力行。《罪恶之城》在这方面是真正的突破，因为那是我第一次决定把书做得这么大。你手里拿的这本书，其页面尺寸就是我当年实际绘制的尺寸。

Very physical. Very physical. Sin City was a real breakthrough that way, because it was the first time I decided dorks are damn big. The book you're holding is the actual size of the page, as I did.

那么具体尺寸是多少？

And so what what is the size?

它被称为双倍尺寸。是出版尺寸的四倍大。

It's it's called twice up. It's four times the size of the published.

我是说，那玩意儿在视频里能盖住我整个身体。哦，

I mean, that is it covers my entire body on video. Oh,

确实如此。但这就是漫画书最初在四十年代的绘制尺寸。后来为了加快制作速度并降低漫画成本，它们变得越来越小，直到最后决定要能放进11x17的复印机里，页面变得非常非常小，那大概是我入行的时候。当我发现四十年代这些原始尺寸时，我恍然大悟：难怪它们看起来那么棒。于是我在《罪恶之城》里决定纠正这个错误。

that happened. But that is the size that comic books were originally drawn back, like, in the nineteen forties. And over time, in order to pick up the speed of production and just lower the price of making comics, they made them smaller and smaller and smaller until finally they decided they ought to fit into an 11 by 17 photocopier and made the pages very, very tiny to work on, which was about the time I came in. And when I discovered these old originals from the forties, I went, that's why they look so damn good. And I decided with Sin City, I was gonna correct the error.

太神奇了。还有牙刷。对，我在你清单末尾提到过。你是怎么用牙刷的？

That's amazing. And toothbrush. Yes. I mentioned this at the end of your list. How do you use the toothbrush?

因为我觉得这至少在我心中，是弗兰克·米勒作品的标志性特征之一。所以你是怎么用牙刷的？

Because I feel like this, at least in my mind, is one of the hallmark signatures in the minds of many of some Frank Miller artwork is this particular element. So how do you use the toothbrush?

我的方法是：印度墨水瓶盖上有个小喷头，我把墨水挤到牙刷毛上，用拇指划过牙刷，它就会溅出效果——可以是墙面的纹理、天空的质感、喷溅的血液，随你想要表现什么。

What I do is a lid of a bottle of India ink has a little squirter thing on it, and I squirt some of that onto the bristles of a toothbrush, run my thumb across a toothbrush, and it it splatters across an effect that could be texture on a wall, texture in the sky, splurting blood, whatever you choose to make.

就是拇指这样轻轻一划 对 横着

Just kinda dragging your thumb Yes. Across the

像孩子般随心所欲。没错。我喜爱的是它能为画面带来那种美妙的混沌感。随着时间推移，我会改用或结合手腕快速甩笔的动作，这样能创造出更修长、更具延展性的

as as a child would. Yep. What I love is that it gives you that lovely element of chaos across the picture. Across time, I would combine or replace that with simply snapping a brush across my wrist, which would create more of an elongated, stretchy

有点像一道斜线？

Sort of a slash?

这再次创造出不可预测却非常自然的笔触。纯粹是在玩转材料特性。

It creates, again, something that's unpredictable, but very organic. That's just playing with the materials.

你当时的座右铭是什么？书里也提到过。高中毕业那年，但我想应该是

What was your motto? This is from the book as well. Your senior year of high school, but I think it was

给我滚开别挡道。

Get the hell out of my way.

给我滚开别挡道。

Get the hell out of my way.

我当时迫不及待想离开学校投入工作。是啊。不过我的意思是，我也不确定

I was impatient to leave school and get to work. Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't know

如果急躁仅止于此。作为一个同样非常缺乏耐心的人，我认为这有利有弊。我在想，比如《罪恶之城》页面上那种将本能暴力转化为创作的 visceral 冲击力是如此强烈。你如何与愤怒共处？利用它，合适的剂量（如果存在所谓合适剂量），驾驭它而非被它控制。

if the impatience ended there. So I say that as someone who's also very impatient, and it has pros and cons. And I'm wondering, like, the visceral violence that is channeled into creating, say, what we see on the page in Sin City, the kinetic aspect of it is so palpable. How do you relate to anger? Using it, the right dose, if there is a right dose, channeling it versus being controlled by it.

或许用'内心之火'来形容会更贴切？你如何看待这种内在的火焰？

How do you think about that fire maybe is a better way to put it within?

不，不，不。愤怒也是个很好的词。

No. No. No. No. I mean, anger is a good word too.

它是创伤中重要而强大的组成部分。戏剧本质上就是冲突。从北欧神话到《亲情无价》之类的作品，全都充满激烈冲突。漫画是纯粹的视觉媒介，表面上看并不十分有力——漫画书根本无法与电影那种纯粹的视觉冲击力抗衡。

It's a an important and powerful component, trauma. Drama is essentially conflict. If you go all the way back to like the Norse myths and the but you can take it all the way from the Norse myths through to like terms of endearment or whatever else, those are all full of Storm and Drang. And comics are a purely visual medium and also a not very, on the face of it, powerful. There's no way a comic book compete with the sheer spectacular firepower of cinema.

电影能全方位调动你的感官，呈现逼真的画面和真实人物向你传递情感。当它们想要制造奇观时，从D·W·格里菲斯时代就开始验证，到《星球大战》达到巅峰。无人能及，任何舞台形式都无法超越。所以漫画必须另辟蹊径，比如杰克·科比那样突然杀出，展示说：

That is that you do of cinema completely in so many of your senses, and it involves images that are perceptively real and real people expressing these emotions at you. And then when they wanna do spectacle, they started proving it way back with DW Griffith and sealed the deal with Star Wars. Nobody can touch them. And they they can outdo anything in stage, in in any other form. So comics had to come out with, like, with, like, a little Jack Kirby swinging in and just showing, okay.

看，我们确实做不到那些。所以我们要更疯狂——他创造了能吞噬星球的角色。而我在漫画中追求的是让绘画本身充满极致情感，试图让它超越演员的表演。

You know, we can't really do that. So we're gonna go even more crazy. And, you know, he made up characters who could eat planets. And in the case of what I've been after with my comics is to have the drawing itself be so emotional and extreme. I'm trying to make it out act an actor.

首先我要向不了解这个领域的观众说明：你在我看来是多维度的异类，其中之一就是你在绘画和写作领域都享有盛誉。在美国漫画界这常见吗？并不常见。稍微典型些的情况是...（你原本想说什么？）

Well, what I love about your comics so first of all, I should just point out to people that don't know anything about this world. You seem to me to be an outlier on a number of different levels, one of which is that you're very well known for your art, and you are very well known for your writing. How common is that in The US comic world? It's not common. A little more typical, but in The US, where would you

比过去更常见了，因为以前几乎不被允许。只有少数例外，比如威尔·艾斯纳，他确实非常出色，显然掌控了整个创作过程。

More common than it used to be because it used to be almost not allowed. There were a few exceptions. You know, there was Will Eisner, for instance, who was really outstanding and that he clearly ran the whole show.

对于完全不了解背景的人来说，为什么艾斯纳是如此重要的人物？

For people who have no context whatsoever, why is Eisner such an important figure?

首先，他是奠基人之一。因为他能包揽全部工作，其他人也可以，但他选择持续全面把控而非成为流水线的一部分。当然，他也经营自己的工作室，那就是另一回事了。但最终他专注于创作自己的系列《闪灵侠》，即众所周知的威尔·艾斯纳的《闪灵侠》。

I mean, he's one of the founding fathers for one thing. Because he could do the entire thing. Other people could as well, but he decided to keep doing the entire thing rather than just becoming part of a factory. Of course, he ran his own factory, but that's a whole another story. But ultimately, he settled on doing his one series, the spirit, which is known as the Will Eisner's of the spirit.

尽管过程中他雇佣过其他人，但他始终主导并全面监督创作。随着年龄增长，他开始完全独立完成作品，这些更具个人特质的作品再次将漫画引向新方向。

And even though he employed other people along the way, he always ran the show and supervised completely. And as he got older, he started doing work that he did inch top to bottom by himself. That was of much more personal nature, where he once again turned comics in a new direction.

让我们探讨其他展现这一媒介潜力的重要人物

Let's explore other figures who have helped showcase the potential of this medium

嗯。

Mhmm.

通过创新。我热爱这个领域，因为听众可能不是漫画爱好者，但他们总会被某种媒介形式所吸引。

Through innovating. Because I love this terrain because people listening may not be comic lovers, but there's some medium that they're fascinated by.

对。

Right.

无论是在小说领域，还是电影、漫画中，有些我们现在习以为常的事物，在一二十年前并不显而易见。这似乎是个好时机来聊聊杰克·科比如何影响了漫画界。如果我说错了请纠正，但据我所读——这直接引自你的书——长期以来，漫画本质上都是固定分格的。对吧？某种程度上艺术家们需要在预设框架内发挥，我不想说是被裁剪，但确实是在预先勾勒的页面布局中填充内容。

And whether it's in the realm of fiction and, let's just say, novels, whether it's in film, whether it's in comics, there are things that we might take for granted now that were not at all obvious a decade or two ago. And it seems like a good time to maybe talk about Jack Kirby and how he impacted the world of comics. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I was reading, and this is straight from your book, that for a long time, comics were set panels, in a sense. Right? And you kinda filled in the blanks to the extent that artists would sometimes get sort of pre, I don't wanna say cut, but sort of outlined pages within which to place Well, their they they

当时存在各种限制方式。很多这些情况发生在我入行前，所以我不太清楚。但我想你提到科比的原因是，当漫画还普遍采用九格或六格布局时，是他打破了这种模式。所有页面都使用相同的分格方式。

there were a lot of various ways they restricted. I mean, it's in various ways. And a lot of this happened before I was around, so I don't know. But I think the reason you bring Kirby up in this respect was he was the guy who came in when comics were all had either a nine panel grid or a six panel grid. They were all panels with same page.

而他比任何人都更彻底地粉碎了这种模式。他就像我们的D·W·格里菲斯，突然把摄影机从固定位置解放出来。他会用两页篇幅来呈现单个画面。

And more than anybody, he blasted that to pieces. He was like our D. W. Griffith. He just, you know, ripped the camera off the floor, and and all of a sudden, he would use two pages for a single image.

对我这样的孩子来说，这彻底拓展了思维。这位大师数十年来不断突破创新——他早在我的出生前就开始了创作，甚至与我父母同属二战时期（当然并非并肩作战）。他经历多次复出，每次归来都仿佛重新发明了整个叙事体系。

For a kid like me, it was mind expanding. It was like I was you know, this one guy just kept coming back decade after decade after decade. I mean, he started way before I was born. I mean, he served in World War two with my parents, not side by side, but, you know, he had several comebacks. And each time, he seemed to reinvent the whole Megillah.

你似乎有几个核心指导理念。除了书名本身的'推墙'，另一个令人印象深刻的是'打破规则'。能否详细阐述这两个理念？为什么选择它们？

You have seems like a few different guiding phrases. We have one, of course, from the book title itself, push the wall. Another one that comes to mind is defy the code. Can you expand on both of these, please? Why these two?

'推墙'这个理念源于漫画领域长期存在的分裂性：一方面是渴望探索新形式的艺术家、漫画家和作家，幻想题材本质就具有探索性；但另一方面这个产业始终非常保守。那些看着漫画长大的人变得极其恪守传统，他们会纠结于所谓的'连续性'——比如在画《蜘蛛侠》第385期时，不能与第14期的内容矛盾。这本质上很荒谬，因为按时间推算角色都该85岁了。于是你看到一边是高度束缚，另一边却是充满激情的实验场。

Pushing the wall or pushing the walls is just colleagues have always been been this strangely schizophrenic field where on the one hand, you have artists, cartoonists, writers, such people who want to explore and try new things. The nature of these fantasies is is exploratory, but the business has always been very conservative. And the people who grew up on comics became themselves very tradition bound. They would fret over things like what we call continuity, worrying about if you're working on issue number 385 of Spider Man, you can contradict something that was done in issue 14, which is on the face of it absurd because the character would be 85 if it was around that long. And so you had this high bound on one side and this enthusiastic experimental field on the other.

我一直更倾向于向那些寻求未来和尝试新事物的人分享更多内容。只是

And I've always just wanted to post more toward the people looking for a future and for trying out new stuff. Just

首先快速感谢我们的赞助商，稍后节目继续。不是要当个爱抱怨的老顽固，但在2000年代初，当我经营自己的电商业务时，那些工具简直糟透了。它们很努力，但实在太差了。不得不东拼西凑各种东西。那时我只能梦想有Shopify这样的平台。

a quick thanks to our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show. Not to be a salty old dog, but in the early two thousands, back in the day when I was running my own ecommerce business, the tools were atrocious. They tried hard, but man was it bad. Had to cobble all sorts of stuff together. I could only dream of a platform like Shopify.

Shopify是全球数百万企业的商业平台，如今美国10%的电商交易都通过Shopify完成。回到2000年代初，那时甚至没人想过AI。谁能预料到，即使在过去24个月里，AI带来的神奇变化？Shopify一直走在时代前沿，他们配备了各种实用的AI工具，能加速一切流程——撰写产品描述、页面标题，甚至增强产品摄影效果。最重要的是，Shopify专业处理从库存管理到国际物流再到退货处理等所有环节。

Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, and now 10% of all ecommerce in The US is on Shopify. Now back to the early two thousands, then nobody even thought of AI. Who could have predicted, even in the last twenty four months, the magic that is now possible with AI? Shopify has been ahead of the curve, and they are packed with helpful AI tools that will accelerate everything, write product descriptions, page headlines, even enhance your product photography. Best of all, Shopify expertly handles everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond.

如果你准备开售，你就该用Shopify。注册每月1美元的试用，立即开始在shopify.com/tim上销售。再说一遍：shopify.com/tim。睡眠才是一切的根本。

If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/tim. One more time. Shopify.com/tim. Sleep is the key to it all.

这是基础。很多人听我说过今天的赞助商Eight Sleep如何用它的Pod床罩改善了我的睡眠。Pod五系列推出了Eight Sleep最新产品——智能毯，采用与Pod床罩相同的技术，将温度调节扩展到全身。平均而言，用户反馈Pod帮助他们入睡速度加快44%，深度睡眠增加34%，每晚多获得1小时睡眠。此外，Pod的鼾声检测和自动抬升平台使用户打鼾减少了45%。

It is the foundation. Many of you heard me talk about how today's sponsor Eight Sleep has improved my sleep with its pod cover. The Pod five introduces Eight Sleep's latest product, the blanket, which uses the same technology as the pod's cover to extend temperature regulation across the entire body. On average, members report the pod has helped them fall asleep 44% faster, 34% deeper sleep, and given them up to one added hour of sleep each night. Also, the pod's snoring detection and automatic elevating platform have reduced users snoring by 45%.

每天早上你还会收到个性化报告，可以追踪睡眠阶段、心率变异性、呼吸频率等指标，完全无需佩戴任何设备。立即访问8sleep.com/tim并使用优惠码Tim，立减350美元购买Pod五至尊版。可在家试用30天，不满意可退货。重申：8sleep.com/tim立减350美元，支持全球多国配送。

You'll also get a personalized report each morning, allowing you to track your sleep stages, heart rate variability, respiratory rate, and more, all without having any devices strapped onto you. So head over to 8sleep.com/tim and use code Tim to get $350 off of your very own Pod five Ultra. You can try it at home for thirty days and return if you don't like it. Again, that's 8 Sleep dot com slash tim for $350 off. Shipping is available to many countries worldwide.

再说一遍：8sleep.com/tim。你和...我们要按时间线跳着讲...不过让我找找你书里的这段。它关联到一个你们都熟悉的名字——尼尔·亚当斯。尼尔是个严厉的监工，批评起来毫不留情。他简直是天赐良机。

One more time, 8sleep.com/tim. How did you and we're gonna jump around chronologically, of But let me see if I can find this particular paragraph from your book. It relates to a name that you all recognize, and that is Neil Adams. So Neil was a hard taskmaster, utterly ruthless in his criticism. He was a godsend.

我只想再读一段。我们会介绍这个人是谁，但你直接打了他办公室的电话。是这样吗？

I just wanna read another paragraph. We'll get into the description of who this is, but you cold called his office. Is that right?

是的。

Yes.

好的。直接打了他办公室的电话。那时候没人知道你是谁。最后接电话的应该是他女儿。她说，这是爸爸。

Okay. Cold called his office. This is when no one knows who you are. And then ultimately, I think it was his daughter who answered the phone. She says, this is dad.

我们又接到一个。对。不知怎么你就进了办公室。你给他看了你的作品，然后，我直接引用原话，'他告诉我我的东西有多糟糕，连委婉都懒得用'。你说你来自哪里？

We got another one. Yep. Somehow you ended up in the office. You show him your work, and then, and I'll quote here, he told me just how awful my stuff was and didn't bother with using any sugarcoating either. Where'd you say you were from?

佛蒙特州。回佛蒙特州去吧。去加油站打工。结婚生子。你不行，永远都不行，引用结束。

Vermont. Go back to Vermont. Pump gas. Get married. You're no good, and you never will be, end quote.

我咽了下口水。这是在说你。然后我问，我能修改一下明天再给您看吗？尼尔回答说，行。明天见。

I gulped. This is referring to you. And then asked, can I fix it and show you again tomorrow? To which Neil responds, yeah. I'll see you tomorrow.

他低吼了一声。好吧。尼尔是谁，你为什么要联系他？

He growled. Okay. Who is Neil, and why did you reach out to him?

哦，那是尼尔·亚当斯。

Oh, that's Neil Adams.

是啊，他是谁？

Yeah. Who is he?

他是那个时代的杰出艺术家，某种程度上堪称一代单传，因为很长一段时间没人进入漫画行业——报酬太低了。相信我，当时普遍认为这行很快就要消亡了。我们刚经历了漫画审查法规的恐怖时期，公众羞辱和自我审查。从大众媒体沦为笑柄，还是那种低俗的笑柄。只有少数人坚守着微光，继续做着《闪电侠》这类老牌漫画。

He was the outstanding artist of he was in a way a one man generation because there was a long period where nobody entered the comics business because it didn't pay well. And believe me, the common wisdom was it'd be out of business soon. We'd just been through the horrors of the comics code and the public humiliation and the and the self censorship of that time. Been disgraced going from a mass medium and being turned into a just a a punchline, you know, a dirty punchline. And there were just a few people keeping the light alive and still doing these old titles like the flash and so on.

但那些漫画看起来相当粗糙。不过仍有零星亮点，有些老前辈坚持创作，比如艺术家吉尔·凯恩。但尼尔·亚当斯不同，他是带着全新面貌和满腔热情闯入的年轻人。

But the books were looking pretty crummy. But there were these glimmers. There was these guys some of the old guys just stayed there and kept doing great stuff of an artist named Gil Kane, for instance. But there was Neil Adams. He was this new guy who came in young and brought such enthusiasm and all new look.

那种'认真对待我'的全新视角，更写实的画风。他在很多方面带动了整个世代，不仅通过作品，更通过言传身教。他在曼哈顿开了间叫'连续性'的工作室，接广告业务，实际上成了漫画家的中转站——来这里接受他的指导，他成了这里的导师。

It all new take me seriously look. It was much more, you know, a much more realistic look. And and he dragged the whole generation with him in in a lot of ways, not just with his work. He did it with his speech and with his actions. He opened up a studio in Manhattan called Continuity, which did advertising work and essentially became a halfway house for comic book artists to come in and get his training in, where he became the guru of this place.

我当年查到电话簿打过去，和他女儿通话后当天就见到了他，开始在那里混。靠着接小广告活计维生，有时只是上色，后来慢慢能画稿。最后他帮我安排了第一份漫画工作，当然不止我一个受惠者。

When I called up, I looked up his number in the phone book, he said, spoke to his daughter, got to see him that day, and and started hanging out there. And I started living on little advertising jobs. Sometimes I just color them, and then eventually I'd get to draw them and so on. And then he lined up my first comic book work. I was hardly the only one.

这段往事让我着迷，他愿意伸出援手有几个原因。首先，我好奇这人怎么能在专注创作、经营公司之余还有精力指导后辈？单这个问题就值得深思。其次想到那个关键转折点——要是他那天心情很差，对你说'明天别来了小子'，人生会怎样不同。

So I'm so fascinated by this exchange and his willingness to help for a few different reasons. Right? Number one is, I wonder how did this guy muster the bandwidth to do his own work, run a business, and also mentor? Just that question alone. And then I also think about the sliding door moment of what if he had just had a really bad day and he was like, you're not going back tomorrow, kid.

抱歉，我太忙了。对吧？就像，多么不同的生活。

Sorry. I'm too busy. Right? Like, what a different life.

对不起。我很抱歉。我得自吹自擂一下。

Sorry. I'm sorry. I gotta blow my own horn.

是啊，自吹自擂吧。

Yeah. Blow your own horn.

我曾是个相当固执的小混蛋。所以你知道，我无论如何都会回来的。

I was a pretty determined little bastard. So, you know, I would have been back anyway.

你无论如何都会回来？是啊。

You would have been back anyway? Yeah.

在敲他的门之前，我已经敲过很多扇门了。

I banged on many doors before his.

好吧。这其实是我接下来要问的问题，就是，你觉得他为什么同意让你回来？他说，去加油吧，回佛蒙特州去，然后你说，让我修好它明天再来。然后他说，哦，好吧。行。

Well, okay. So this was actually gonna be my next question, which was like, why do you think he agreed to let you come back? He was like, go pump gas, go back to Vermont, and then you're like, let me fix it and come back tomorrow. And he's like, oh, okay. Fine.

对吧？

Right?

实际上不是。是因为我坚持了嗯。我坚持要解决这个问题。

Actually, no. Was because I asserted Mhmm. I asserted that I wanted to fix it.

好的。明白了。

Okay. Got it.

因为我没有哭着离开。

Because I didn't cry and leave.

像这样的互动有多少次？你向他展示作品的不同拜访中，他最终说出你的作品不该被扔掉之前经历了多少次？

How many interactions like that? How many different visits showing him work did it take for him to finally say that your work was not for throwing away?

我知道次数并不多，我认为是这样。然后，我开始为Gold Key漫画做一些短篇小工作。那是一家很久以前的出版商，他们会雇佣你画三页的内容，每页25美元，就是这类工作。这就是他们所谓的'交学费'。

I know it wasn't all that many, I don't think. And, you know, then then I worked on short little jobs for Gold Key Comics. That was an old publisher a long time ago, and so on, where they would hire you for a three page job where you got $25 a page, that kind of thing. That was what they called paying your dues.

是的。我们会稍微跳着聊，但我觉得人们需要读这本书，需要看这部纪录片。不过我知道很多人已经报道过你生平某些方面。你在七十年代末因对《夜魔侠》的革新性工作首次获得关注，对吧？另外——这是书中的内容——我读到一些片段，这里我要插入一个角色（你得解释一下），但我用括号标注了艾丽卡。

Yeah. We're gonna hop around a little bit, but, I mean, people need to read the book, they need to see the doc, But I know a lot of people have covered certain aspects of your bio. You first gained notoriety in the late seventies for your transformative work on Daredevil. Right? Now I also, and this is pulling from the book, read a bit, and this is I'm putting a character, you'll have to explain, but Elektra in kind of brackets because I'm inserting that.

但现在我引用你的话，那确实是我漫画职业生涯的真正起点。你能谈谈你生命中涉及艾丽卡的那段经历及其意义吗？

But now I'm quoting you, was the true genesis of my career in comic books. Could you speak to that chapter of your life that involved Elektra and what the significance of that was?

哦，我想那是因为我最初并不是以编剧身份加入《夜魔侠》的。我只是作为受雇的画师加入，很快意识到这样行不通，因为画面和文字是一体的。我的意思是，一旦我画出画面，文字就变得显而易见，于是我很快就开始负责故事构思等工作。我觉得夜魔侠需要一个对立面，一个蛇蝎美人。于是我创造了艾丽卡，但我决定先保留这个角色，直到我自己执笔写故事时才正式引入。

Oh, I think that was because I I didn't come in as the writer on Daredevil. I just simply came in as an artist for hire, and realized fairly early on that this was no way to do it because the pictures and the words are one thing. I mean, the words were obvious once I drew the pictures, then I very quickly took plotting the stories and so on. I felt that the daredevil needed a a counterpoint, a femme fatale. And I came up with Elektra, but I realized I was gonna hold her back until I was writing the book myself, and I did it that way.

我想探究的是——或许我夸大了其重要性——但这是否

I suppose what I'm trying to unpack is and maybe I'm overstating the importance, but was that

某种程度上

sort of

艾丽卡的引入对你而言是个重要的转折点？是的。它重要在哪些方面？

introduction of Elektra an important inflection point for you in some way? Yeah. In what way was it important?

嗯，如果你看那些老漫画，那可以说是我开始理解漫威漫画本质的时候。漫威漫画不是每月独立的故事，而是你持续追看的肥皂剧。从我执笔的第一期开始，标题就叫《艾丽卡》，整个故事都围绕他们展开。从那以后，整个系列就变成了一个庞大的...

Well, if you if you look at those old comics, that's when, in a way, I started understanding what a Marvel comic was. A Marvel comic isn't a story every month. A Marvel comic is an ongoing soap opera that you're following. And as soon as you know, with my first issue that I wrote, it was called Elektra, and it was all about them. From then on, the whole thing becomes one sprawling.

我的意思是，这种庞大既有好也有坏。有点像史诗，角色来来去去，但核心围绕一个小型固定阵容。你知道的，有个掌控所有帮派的邪恶金并，还有致命宿敌靶眼——这两个角色都不是我创造的。

And I mean, it's sprawling in both good and bad ways. Sort of epic where characters come and characters go, but it's focused around a pretty small cast. You know, there's a diabolical kingpin who runs all the gangs. There's the deadly enemy bullseye. Neither of whom I made up.

你知道的，还有格达布尔和艾丽卡。这一切就像一段痛苦的恋情，男主角爱上了一个精神病杀手，所以肯定会麻烦不断。

And there's, you know, Gerdable and Elektra. And all of this is like a tortured romance that the hero is in love with a psychotic assassin, so it's it's bound to be enough trouble.

发展到某个阶段肯定少不了眼泪。

Bound to have some tears involved at some point.

这非常青少年化，源自一种非常青少年的心态，但我为此感到非常自豪。

It was very adolescent. It came from a very adolescent state of mind, but I'm very proud of it.

我是说，我爱艾丽卡这个角色。他确实很有灵感。我童年家里有很多艾丽卡的漫画。

I mean, I loved Elektra. He was really inspired. I have a lot of comics with Elektra at my childhood home

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。在长岛至今还保存着，装在塑料袋里垫着背板。

Yeah. On Long Island to this day, polybagged with backing and

当每个人都得画她的时候，那感觉棒极了。

And when everyone has to draw her anything, it's just great,

是这样的。对于完全不熟悉的朋友们，同时也为了让我自己更好地理解，制作漫画其实有多种不同的方法。

you know. So for folks who don't have any familiarity, and also because I want to better understand it, I mean, there are different approaches to making a comic

是的。

Yeah.

还有故事创作也是。对吧？我想在这里展示一些内容，需要花点时间阅读，但希望在我读完至少部分内容后，你能带大家详细了解一下。好的。一切始于故事，也围绕故事展开。

And also crafting a story. Right? And so I wanna pull up something that I have here, and it's gonna take me a second to read, but I'd love you to walk people through this after I read at least some of it. Alright. Everything starts with and proceeds from story.

几个简单的故事法则：第一，故事开场要尽可能接近高潮，收尾要尽可能干脆利落；第二，让主角迅速陷入困境，或者给他一个亟待解决的难题。我专注于构建故事的骨架。

Some simple story rules. Number one, start your story as late into the action as possible, end it as early into the action as possible. Two, get your hero into trouble fast. That or give the hero a pressing problem to solve. I work on the spine of the story.

这个说法我很想请你解释一下。构建故事骨架，确定开头和结尾，然后大致勾勒中间情节。我再读一句就交给你补充：为此我会做笔记，设计推动剧情但留有旁支叙事余地的场景。之后你会谈到初步草图等等。

That's a phrase that I'd love for you to define. Work on the spine of the story and figure out how it starts and ends, and then roughly plot the in between. And I'll just read one more sentence, and then I'll let you kinda fill. To do this, I make notes and create scenes that will advance the storyline but allow room for digressions and narrative side streets. And then you talk about preliminary sketches and so on.

能否展开讲讲？比如以《罪恶之城》或其他你想到的作品为例，具体说明你会如何操作？

Can you expand on this and just maybe give an example of how you would do that, whether it's with a book like Sin City or any other that comes to mind?

你指我怎么做哪件事？

How I do what?

如何真正从第一步开始构建故事，然后逐步推进。似乎在引言部分也提到，对故事结局有清晰构想是其中的关键环节。

How you actually start from step one in creating a story, and then proceed through that. Seems like also in the introduction that having a very good idea of where your story ends is a critical piece of that.

比如在《罪恶之城》开篇时，我就知道马弗可能会死。这非常重要。当然，当我开始创作《黑暗骑士》时，我以为蝙蝠侠会死。但你知道，结果并非如此。

I knew at the beginning of Sin City that Marvel could die, for instance. It's very important. Of course, when I started Dark Knight, I thought Batman was gonna die. You know, it didn't work out that way.

是啊。

Yeah.

我的方法论随着时间发生了变化。过去比你现在读到的还要刻板得多。我那时真的相信存在某种固定创作方式，并不断追寻这种方法。现在我更相信让故事引导我走向新方向，比以往更信赖灵感的指引。

My methodology has changed over time. It used to be the as rigid as as, you know, more rigid than what you just read. I mean, I used to really believe there was a way, and I was seeking the way to do it. Now I do believe in letting a story nudge me in another direction. I believe in trusting the muse more than I used to.

那么这在实际创作中如何体现？你既有故事起点又知道结局，角色处于特定情境中，你是通过绘画推进然后梳理叙事弧线吗？对你而言现在偶然灵感和既定规划该如何平衡？

How does that show up then in practice? Do you have you know the starting point, you know the end of the story, you have characters in a situation, do you draw your way through and then figure out kind of the narrative arc? What is the proper blend for you now of Well, thing is is to serendipity.

既要意识到自己是故事的创造者，清楚这些是待塑的黏土和创作意图，又要明白艺术创作在脱离自我中心时才能达到最佳状态。有时角色会反驳你，有时他们比你知道得更多。永远要留意那些灵光乍现的时刻——当你突然进入另一个故事，意识到这才是我真正想要的，而非原先追寻的那个。

Commenting yourself as being the generator of the story shortly, and saying that these are the pieces of clay and this is what I wanna do with them. But to realize that the artistic process is not at its best when it's an egomaniacal process. And sometimes the characters talk back and sometimes they know more than you do. And always be aware that there will be that just that flash, that thing that happens, where all of a sudden you're in a different story and you realize this is the one that no. This isn't the one I was looking for, but this is the where I wanna be.

对我来说，这就像太空探索者，既要做好准备，又明白整个工作本质上是学会辨别该忽略什么、该追随什么。比起过去追求的掌控感，现在我更享受讲故事过程中的神秘性。

I don't know. It to me, it's sort of like being a space explorer and being ready for things and knowing that the whole job is really, you know, what just trying to figure out what to ignore and what to follow. I like the mystery of storytelling more than the power I used to see in it.

好吧，我们来聊聊挑选与选择的话题，特别想听听——我曾作为交换生在日本生活，主要通过阅读漫画书学会了日语读写。所以楠叶一定

Well, let's talk about picking and choosing and specifically would love to hear I lived in Japan as an exchange student and learned to read and speak Japanese largely from reading comic books. So Kuzori must

让你忙得不可开交吧。是的。

have kept you busy. Yeah.

我是说，我当时忙着用我的小电子词典阅读各种漫画书。

I mean, I was busy reading all sorts of comic books with my little electronic dictionary.

我很想读日文版的《楠叶馆》。

I would love to read Kusoryokan in Japanese.

哦，当然，那是一种截然不同的体验。

Oh, yeah. It's it's a different experience, of course.

我敢打赌确实如此。

I'll bet. Yeah.

你最初是怎么接触到比如墨比斯、大友克洋这些人的？还有其他你想提到的吗？

How did you first get exposed to, for instance, Mobius, Otomo, any others you want to

是的。

Yeah.

提到？你是如何接触到这些影响的，他们是谁或现在是谁？

Mention? How did you get exposed to those influences, and who were or who are they?

主要有两次入侵。其实是三次。第一次是英国人，因为DC漫画开始出版布莱恩·博兰德和麦克·麦克马洪等人的作品。但这些对大家来说最容易看到，因为大家都是美国漫画迷，而且语言相通。

The two main invasions. Well, three. There's three, actually. The first was the English because DC Comics started publishing Brian Bolland and Mike McMahon and all the rest. But they were the easiest for everybody to see because they were all American comics fans and they and, you know, the language was the same and everything.

当‘禁忌星球’漫画店开业后，情况开始变得更加狂野。

It started getting a lot wilder when Forbidden Planet comics opened.

老兄，‘禁忌星球’是谁啊？

Man, who are Forbidden Planet.

没错。当漫威开始出版墨比斯的作品时，闸门就打开了，因为那是欧洲的作品，简直让人震惊。到处都是墨比斯、墨比斯、墨比斯。但还有其他一些没人注意到的家伙。墨比斯显然像一股席卷文化的浪潮。

Yeah. And when Marvel started publishing Mobius, then the floodgates opened because it was Europe, which just knocked everybody's socks off. It was Mobius, Mobius, Mobius, Mobius, Mobius. But there are the other guys too that nobody was paying attention to. Mobius obviously did was a tidal wave that swept through culture.

它涉及电影、影院等等。对我来说，另一个转折点是我有个女朋友。她父亲是个商人，在日本有很多生意。她扔给我一本像电话簿一样的日本漫画，是小造作的。我翻开它，研究它，沉浸其中，就像罗南在那天诞生了。我的叙事风格从此彻底改变。

It is a film cinema and so on. And for me, the other event was I had a girlfriend. Her father was a businessman who did a lot of business in Japan, And she tossed me a it's like phone book that was a Japanese comic, and it was Kozoryoka. And I opened it and studied it and fell in and and like Ronan was born that day. My storytelling style changed everything.

而且，你知道，从那时起，我协助将这一头衔引入，并推动了亚洲风潮的兴起。目睹这一切变得更加国际化，真是令人着迷。至于亚洲元素，它们带来了一种完全不同的时空感，与欧洲风格截然相反。

And, you know, and from that, I helped bring the title over and and helped with the the Asian invasion. Seeing it all become so much more international is just fascinating. And with the Asian stuff, you've got just a completely different sense of time and space. It is the dead opposite of the European.

莫比乌斯的影响力巅峰大约是在什么时候？大致的时间段能说说吗？

When was Mobius sort of at his peak of influence? What what would have been the timing roughly on that?

我无法给出确切日期。但毫无疑问，他与杰克·科比齐名，就像你列举贝多芬和马勒这样的传奇人物时一样。

I couldn't name the exact dates. Certainly, he's up there with Jack Kirby in terms of being one of those people who it's like if you're listing Beethoven and Mahler and all of that.

我在试图厘清时间线，因为我研究过大量莫比乌斯的作品。莫比乌斯...《异形》是什么时候...

I'm trying to figure out if the timing is such, because I've I've looked at tons of Mobius artwork, that Mobius When did Alien

问世的？《异形》是哪年上映的？

come out? When did Alien come out.

哦，《异形》。好问题。应该是在《星球大战》之后。我在想这个是因为莫比乌斯的很多作品让我联想到塔图因星球和《星球大战》里的场景，所以我在思考两者之间的影响关系。

Oh, Alien. Good question. I mean, it would have been post Star Wars. I was just trying to think because, like, Mobius also, a lot of his artwork makes me think of, like, Tatooine and some of these things in Star Wars, so I'm wondering what the directionality is.

对《星球大战》的影响是巨大的。

To Star Wars is huge.

是的。好的。太棒了。这正是我想为自己解答的问题，因为当你...回到日本漫画这个话题时，我用的那本漫画书——它并非知名作品，在日本以外肯定鲜为人知。即便在日本，很多日本人听我提起时也会一脸茫然。

Yeah. Okay. Great. That's what I was trying to answer for myself because it seems so obvious when you And look at to come back to the Japanese, a comic book that I use, it's not a well known title, certainly outside of Japan. Even within Japan, a lot of Japanese people kinda scratch their head when I tell them.

这本漫画叫《ろくでなしBLUES》（无用布鲁斯），讲的是高中帮派的故事——虽然现实中并不真正存在这种帮派，但漫画里他们装得煞有介事。你知道，坏孩子们穿着叫'チョリンバ'的特殊制服...总之这是部极度暴力的漫画，打斗场面非常多。嗯。这让当时还不太会读日文的我感觉没那么吃力，对吧？所以翻译这本漫画的负担较轻，而且它的画工实在惊艳。

It's called Rokudenashi Bruzu, which is Rokudenashi Blues, which is about high school gangs, which aren't really a thing, but they pretend like it is, and, you know, the bad kids wear different types of uniforms called chorin or, like Okay. Anyway, and it's but it's a hyper violent there are a lot of fight scenes in this Mhmm. Which made it a little less intimidating for someone who couldn't yet really read Japanese. Right? So so my translating burden was lower with this comic, and the art was spectacular.

真正震撼我的是——如你所说，我到日本时15岁，此前整个童年都在看漫画——他们对时间、空间、速度和动态的呈现方式如此不同。比如腿部摆动的刻画，或是制造模糊效果的手法，都让我着迷。那是我从未见过的表现形式。

What blew my mind, because I had read comics all the way through my childhood up to that point, and I was 15 when I got to Japan, like you said, it was how time and space and speed and motion were depicted so differently, and how they captured, say, the swing of a leg or created the effect of blur was so captivating to me. It was unlike anything I had seen.

没错。我必须说日本漫画最让我惊叹的一点，是他们能把人物放松状态画得如此传神。《带子雄狼》里大部分画面中人物并非懒散状态，即使在战斗中，他们捕捉的也是动作的流畅与优雅。这完全不同于杰克·科比那种棱角分明的力量感。

Yeah. One of the things I've gotta say is that amazes me about the manga stuff is that they could draw people relax so well. That so much of the drawing in lone wolf and cub, people aren't lazing around and stuff. And even in combat, what they're capturing is the fluidity and grace of the movement. I mean, it's the opposite of Kirby, where everything is angles and force.

所以这是种非常亚洲式的暴力美学。而在欧洲，比如莫比斯的作品里，你常能看到优雅的暴力——当他真正表现暴力时，画面会变得刺目骇人，却依然美得惊人。比如手腕击打对方面部时那恰到好处的弯曲度。卡通艺术的每个细节都折射出文化差异，这实在迷人。

And so it's a very Asian violence. And in Europe, you'll often see a very elegant Mobius's violence, when he went really violent, it would be jarring and horrible, but it would still be gorgeous. And it would still be the wrist would be crooked just that much, you know, as it slammed into the person's face and so on. And it's just the difference of cultures reflected in every aspect of cartooning is fascinating.

欧洲和日本风格——比如《带子雄狼》这样的作品——是如何影响你之后的创作方式转变的？

How did the European and Japanese styles, so that would incorporate lone wolf and cub, influence then how your approach changed after that? I

那时我很年轻，才二十多岁。于是我直接坐下来创作了《浪人》这本书，毫不掩饰地模仿他们——武士场景学小岛，科幻场景学莫比斯。后来我又发现了安彦良和...

was very young. I was in my twenties. And so I sat down and I did a book that imitated them shamelessly in Ronin. I did Kojima with with the samurai scenes, I did Mobius with the science fiction scenes. Now I discovered Aki B.

法律让他四处奔波。

Law and did him all over the place.

对你来说，那段经历是怎样的？你觉得充满干劲吗？

What was that experience like for you in doing that? Did you find it energizing?

哦，太棒了。就像任何重大转变都是一次重生。

Oh, it was great. It was like it was like a any transition that big is a rebirth.

好的。我稍后会问你更多关于罗南的事，资料在我酒店的手提箱里。

Alright. I'm gonna ask you a lot more about Ronan, which I have in my suitcase back at my hotel.

嗯。但是

Mhmm. But

在那之前，我想谈谈这个，因为我在书里也看到过——如果你让自己感到无聊，或者你感到无聊，你的观众也会觉得无聊

before we get there, I wanna talk about because I believe I saw this in the book as well. Like, effectively, if you're boring yourself, or if you're bored, you're gonna bore your audience

是的。

Yeah.

然后，比如说，把它扔掉重新开始。对。你怎么知道某个东西是否有效？我会举一个看似有效的例子，那位调色师叫什么名字？是Glynis吗？

And, like, throw it out and start over. Yeah. When do you know if something is working? And I'll pull out an example of what seems like something that was working, and what was the name of the colorist? Is it Glynis?

她的名字是这么念的吗？

Is that how you say her name?

对，Glynis是一个小时，Glynis Green。是的。

Yeah. Glynis is an hour, Glynis Green. Yeah.

没错。所以在制作《夜魔侠》的部分工作时，她会打电话告诉你她有多兴奋

Right. So during some of the work on Daredevil, call you up and say how excited she was

是的。是的。正在处理。对。

Yes. Yes. Working on it. Yeah.

这似乎是事情进展顺利的标志。对。你怎么判断某件事是否有效？

That seems like a signature of something working. Yeah. How do you tell if something is working or not working?

取决于你是否愿意起床去做。是的。我是说，这个问题我已经很久没遇到过了，久到记不清了。

Whether you wanna get out of bed and do it or not. Yeah. I mean, it's not really a problem I have had in so long I can't remember.

是的。所以如果你回顾那些最终让你感到最快乐或不太快乐的事情

Yeah. So if you look back at what you've ended up being happiest with or less happy with

嗯。

Yeah.

事后诸葛亮地说，这并不一定意味着观众的反应。对吧？我不是在说

With hindsight twenty twenty, this doesn't necessarily mean audience response. Right? Not talking

市场反应。明白。

about market response. Understand.

就像内在对你起作用一样。我想我在寻找的是对那些因为默认兴奋度高而难以舍弃东西的人的一些想法。他们会对某件事物产生依恋，然后觉得‘我不会扔掉这个’，他们难以‘杀死自己的宝贝’或‘谋杀自己的宝贝’，对吧，这是你喜欢的另一句话。

Just like intrinsic working for you. I I suppose what I'm looking for is just any thoughts for folks who have trouble throwing things away because they just have a high default level of excitement. So they get wedded to something, and they're like, I'm not gonna throw this away, and they have trouble killing their darlings or murdering their darlings, right, which is another line that you like.

是的。我非常喜欢那句话。

Yeah. I I love that line.

也许探讨这个问题的一个方法是，你有哪些舍弃东西的例子？你如何决定何时该止损或放弃某件事？就像

Maybe some exam way of backing into this would be, what are some examples of things that you have thrown out? How do you decide when it's time to cut your losses or get rid of something? It's like

当它无法让我起床时，就这么简单。对吧？

when it doesn't get me out of bed. It's that simple. Right?

就这么简单。好吧。是的。

It's that simple. Alright. Yeah.

这是我在地球上的主要职责。嗯。如果我不享受其中，那就没有理由去做。

This is my primary function on Earth. Mhmm. If I'm not enjoying it, then there's no reason to do it.

是时候转换方向了。你知道，浪人看起来像是一场全力以赴的冒险，在很多层面上都是大胆的。

Time to switch gears. You know, Ronin seemed like such an all in Yeah. Bold adventure on a lot of levels.

是的。没错。

Yeah. Yeah.

这正是你书中第六课的内容。黑夜降临，粉碎期望。但这就是起点。鲁德亚德·吉卜林在《如果》中有句名言：'如果你能面对胜利与灾难，对待...' 是的，这两个骗子... 现在我想引用第一部分，不会全篇引用，但没有什么比断掉的鼻子更能让人清醒了。

I just this is lesson six in your book. The dark night cometh, smash expectations. But here's where it starts. And there's a quote from Rudyard Kipling from If, which is, if you can meet triumph and disaster, treat Yeah. Those two impostors just the Now here's the first part that I wanted to quote, and I won't do the whole thing, but there's nothing like a broken nose to clarify the mind.

作为一次创作体验，浪人是一次迷人而令人振奋的探索，而且还在继续。那么为什么说浪人是个断掉的鼻子呢？

As a creative experience, Ronan was a fascinating, exhilarating exploration, and it goes on. So why was Ronin a broken nose?

因为我因此受到了严厉批评。观众很愤怒，你知道，那些想成为夜魔侠那样的人。

Because I got I got excoriated for it. I had an angry audience, you know, people who wanted to be like Daredevil.

是的。他们希望你继续提供同样的内容。

Yep. They wanted more of the same from you.

没错。最初销量很高，但随后骤降，这不是DC想要的反响。他们就像，你知道的，播放着哀乐，持续不断。而在此之前我只有一连串的成功。嗯。

Yeah. And after initial high sales, they dropped, and it was not the reception DC wanted. They were like, you know, playing funeral music, and and it would go on. And I'd had nothing but a run of successes before. Mhmm.

那之后你感觉如何？我是说，我并不是把我的书和你那些作品相提并论。你创作的都是标志性作品，但我记得我的前两本书成功后，对第三本《天际》的期望很高，起初确实表现很好，然后不知为何就是没达到预期，我把它当成了天大的个人失败。哦，完全理解。那段日子很难熬

How did you feel after that? I mean, I've I'm not comparing my books to anything you've done. These are iconic pieces of of work that you've produced, but I remember having my first two books succeed, expectations for the third, Sky High, initially does really well, and then for whatever reason, just doesn't meet expectations, and I took it so incredibly personal. Oh, totally. Really hard time

确实。

with it.

哦，是的。我只是在想

Oh, yeah. And I'm just wondering

世界末日的感觉。没错。

End of the world. Yeah.

对你来说那是什么感觉？

What was it like for you?

世界末日。

End of the world.

世界末日。

End of the world.

是啊，哦，是啊。持续了多久

Yeah. Oh, yeah. How long did

让你感觉像是世界末日？

it feel like the end of the world?

我只是...我不知道。持续了一段时间，但关键在于它其实很有用，因为我开始审视并问自己：哪里出了问题？你没有建立连接。就像你做了某件事，这让我决定豁出去，整合一些东西，发展理论，做些能见效的事。

I just I don't know. It was a it was a while, but but the thing is is that it was useful because I started examining it and said, what didn't work? You You didn't connect. It's like you did something. It made me go, okay, let's go for broke and put something together and develop the theories, do something that'll work.

最终我完成了这辈子最有条理、近乎苛刻的结构化作品——《暗夜》，你知道的，它的结构严谨到可笑。分成16页一个单元，贯穿四本48页的书，每本又包含三层嵌套结构。所以整体是四重结构套着三重结构，本质上是个三部曲。

And I ended up doing the most structured, ruthlessly structured thing I've ever done in my life, which is dark night, and which is you know, I mean, it's so structured. It's ridiculous. It breaks into 16 page increments across, you know, four forty eight page books, and and each one has a three x structure. So it's a four x structure with three three x structures. It's basically it's a trilogy.

这是你在分析《浪人》或它为何失败后得出的结论，还是你选择的方向？你认为有哪些原因导致它未能成功？

And was that that was a conclusion or a direction you chose after analyzing Ronin or some of the why didn't Ronin work? What are what do you think are some of the reasons it didn't work?

我认为它滑向了超现实主义，而且它是一部奇幻作品，毫无疑问地，它生不逢时。

I think that it drifted into surrealism, and it was also it was a fantasy, and it was out of its time, you know, without question.

你舔舐伤口。世界末日般的感受会持续一小会儿，但之后你会进行事后剖析。

You lick your wounds. It's the end of the world for a little while, but then you do a postmortem.

然后你从中走出来。更好地完成你的工作。

And And you come out of it. Better your job.

你从中恢复过来。那么在转向《黑暗骑士归来》时，你如何考虑重返战场并投入创作？你提到结构是其中一个方面。在着手那个特定项目时，还有什么是你个人认为需要牢记的重要事项吗？

And you come out of it. And then moving into The Dark Knight Returns, how are you thinking about getting back in the ring and working with this? You mentioned the structure as one aspect of it. Anything else that was important for you to keep in mind personally as you moved into working on that particular project?

我完全沉浸其中。其复杂性是我前所未见的。那里面有太多该死的角色，他们全都同时朝18个方向行动。一旦投入进去，我就心无旁骛，根本不会去想《浪人》或其他事情。

I was into it. The complexity of it was something I had never attempted before. There's so many goddamn characters in that thing, and they're all moving in 18 directions at once. It's it's a I know once I was into it, I was into it. I wasn't thinking about Ronin or anything else.

我是说，

Mean,

这真是个让人全神贯注的大工程，对吧？就像你必须时刻握紧方向盘保持专注。

it's a hell of a all consuming scope. Right? Yeah. It's like you have to keep your hand on the wheel and pay attention.

是啊。

Yeah.

我时间线没记错吧？你创作《黑暗骑士归来》的时候，艾伦·摩尔也在画《守望者》，还是我搞混了？

Am I getting the timeline right that you were working on The Dark Knight Returns at the same time that Alan Moore is working on Watchmen, or am I getting that

时间线稍微靠前些，但有重叠期。确实有重叠，没错，是重叠的。

timeline up? Was a little before, but but they they overlapped. They overlapped. Yeah. They overlapped.

我觉得它们开始以微妙的方式相互影响了。

I think they started affecting each other in subtle ways.

具体是哪些方面的影响呢？

In what types of ways?

我说不太准。因为当时我和艾伦相识，正是在我们各自创作这两部作品期间。我刚启动《黑暗骑士》，而他正为《守望者》热血沸腾。那些英伦元素随处可见。

I don't know exactly. It's like because Alan and I knew each other. We met while we were doing those two books. I had launched Dark Knight, and he was boiling over with Watchmen. And and and this British stuff is all over the place.

这一切都是整个...我不知道该怎么称呼我们对超级英雄的所作所为，但那是重构、解构，不管它是什么。而他的方法更像是直击其软肋，而我的则是重组。在一个更丑陋的世界里，重组其基本要义。

And it was all part of this whole I don't know what you can call what we did to the superhero, but it was reconstruction, deconstruction, you know, whatever it was. And and and so his approach seemed more to really go at the underbelly of it, and mine was to reconstitute. You know, in an uglier world, to reconstitute the basic gist of it.

我知道为什么我会想到这个，再次归功于弗兰克·米勒，美国天才，萨兰·托马斯就坐在大约15英尺外。光芒。总是让惊人的事情发生。

I know why this came to mind for me, and to give credit again where credit's due, Frank Miller, American Genius, Salan Thomas, sitting about 15 feet away. Glow. Always always making amazing things happening.

对着我们。制造丑陋的她

At us. Making ugly She's

暂时表现良好。但从艾伦那里得到了一些很棒的素材，他基本上说他听到关于你在做什么的传闻，那很惊人，他当时就想，哦，该死。基本上，真的得提升我的水平了。是的。满意。

behaving for the time being. But got some great footage from Alan, who basically said he heard these murmurs about what you were working on and that it was amazing, and he was like, oh, shit. Basically, better really up my game. Yeah. Satisfied.

我想提出这个的原因是，我发现至少有一个真正优秀的对手在场，会迫使你

The reason I wanted to bring this up is that I just find having at least some other player on the field who's really good forces you

哦，天啊。是的。去进步。哦，艾伦让我在很多方面变得更好，因为当我回到《夜魔侠》时，突然间就像是，天哪。我只是在写作。

Oh, god. Yeah. To improve. Oh, Alan made me so much better at so many things because when I came back to Daredevil, for instance, it was like all of a sudden, it was like, oh my god. I'm just writing.

而现在有艾伦·摩尔在那里。突然间，我只是如此努力，你知道，如此努力地想成为一个作家。他还带回了恐怖。

And there's Alan Moore out there now. And all of a sudden, I was just trying so much, you know, trying so hard to be a writer. He also brought back horror.

他带回了恐怖元素。

He brought back horror.

是啊。漫画界已经好几代人都没出现过恐怖题材了。

Yeah. There hadn't been horror in comics for for generations.

艾伦最吸引你的是什么？就这个话题随便聊聊。

What makes Alan interesting to you? Just take a sidebar on that.

他是史上最聪明的漫画迷。

He's the smartest fan there ever was.

最聪明的漫画迷。

The smartest fan.

没错。这意味着什么？本质上，他是个在漫画陪伴下长大的人，但他实在太聪明了，能把童年挚爱的东西挖掘到无人想象的深度并彻底重塑。他经手的每个作品都脱胎换骨——比如第一次执笔沼泽怪物时，他就彻底颠覆了这个角色的设定根基。

Yeah. What does that mean? Inside all of that, he is a guy who grew up in comics, but he's just so damn smart that he's able to take the stuff of his child joy and to take it into down into places that nobody's ever dreamt of going for and transform. Anything he's ever done, he's transformed utterly. I mean, he the first time he sat down to write swamp thing, he changed the entire precept of the character.

很多人没注意到的是：原本设定只是个掉进泥潭变成沼泽怪的人。但艾伦在沼泽怪物第一期就把他改写成——本质是一团沼泽植物，只是以这个人类为模板重塑了新躯体。那里根本不存在人类了。这就是他初出茅庐的第一击，也是我第一次看到他的名字。

That's something a lot of people miss is that it had always been this guy who fell into the muck and got transformed into a swamp guy. In his very first issue of the swamp thing, Alan transformed him into a collection of swamp weeds that used this human as a model to construct new body for itself. There was no human in there at all anymore. And then he did look at first first time at bat. First time I ever saw his name.

彻底重塑了这个角色。

Just completely reinventing the character.

从我身上。他出现时确实与众不同。

Out of me. He was something when he showed up. Just

先快速感谢一下我们的赞助商之一，稍后马上回来继续节目。很多人都知道我对日本及其文化有多么热爱——那种对工艺的执着追求、精益求精的态度和持续改进的承诺。但为什么我要提这些呢？因为今天的赞助商AG1同样秉持着这种多年专注改进一件事的精神。他们最新推出的AG1新一代产品，依然是我每天一勺自用的配方，但现在含有更多维生素、矿物质，以及五种经临床研究的新益生菌株，有助于消化和免疫健康。

a quick thanks to one of our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show. Many of you know how deeply I love Japan and its culture of unwavering dedication to craft, refinement, commitment to continuous improvement. But why do I bring this all up? Well, the same focus on improving one thing over the span of years is found in today's sponsor, AG one. They are now unveiling AG one next gen, the same single scoop once a day product that I use myself, but now with more vitamins, more minerals, and five new clinically studied probiotic strains shown to support digestive and immune health.

AG1还获得了NSF运动认证，这是保健品行业最严苛的独立质量安全认证之一。快去看看吧，今天就订阅试用新一代AG1。听众首单还将获赠一瓶维生素D3K2、AG1迎新礼盒和五份升级版AG1旅行装。

AG one is also NSF certified for sport, one of the most rigorous independent quality and safety certification programs in the supplement industry. So check them out. Subscribe today to try the next gen of AG one. Listeners will also get a free bottle of d three k two and a g one welcome kit and five of the upgraded a g one travel packs with your first order. So start your journey with a g one's next gen and experience the difference firsthand.

只需访问drinkag1.com/tim，重复一遍drinkag1.com/tim。我之前答应过会适时请回罗伯特。

Simply go to drinkag1.com/tim. That's drinkag1.com/tim. So I promised I would bring back Robert at some point.

当然。

Sure.

如果有什么我话题跳来跳去没讲到的，你随时可以提出来。但你形容罗伯特像是某种天使，这是为什么？罗伯特·罗德里格兹。

And feel free if if there's anything you'd like to dive into that I'm bouncing around and and not hitting, let me know. But you described Robert as as an angel of sorts. Why is that? Robert Rodriguez.

首先，能在他身边就是一种幸福。你身边是一个始终充满善意与慷慨活力的人。

Well, for one thing is is to be around him. You're around a a man of constant goodwill and of generous energy.

他非常慷慨。抱歉打断一下，但大家可能会觉得这事很有趣。2017年2月我刚搬到奥斯汀时，第一个邀请来家里吃晚餐的人就是罗伯特，我认识他有一阵子了，当时特别兴奋。邀请他来，他快到时我才发现：等等，我既没有盘子也没有餐具。结果他从自己家带了两套餐具过来，那些盘子刀叉我至今还留着。

He's very generous. He he just a quick sorry to interrupt, but people might find this funny. When I moved to Austin in 02/2017, the very first person I had over for dinner at my house, and I was very excited about it, it was Robert, who I'd known for a while. Invited him over, he was on his way, and then I realized, wait a second, I have no plates and I have no silverware. So he brought over two plates from his house plus silverware, which I still have to this day.

这就是罗伯特，典型的罗伯特。他说'盘子餐具都留着吧，你下次肯定还用得上'。

So that's that's Robert. That's Robert. He's like, keep the plates and the silverware. I think you're gonna need it next time.

天啊。

Oh my god.

弗兰克，你提到罗伯特慷慨的精神，我想强调一个看了纪录片才知道的事——据我所知，罗德里格斯退出了导演工会，就为了让你能获得联合导演署名。我完全不知道这事。嗯，真的很暖心。

So, Frank, you're mentioning Robert's generous spirit, and I wanted to underscore something that I only learned after watching the documentary, which is that Rodriguez, as I understand it, quit the director's guild so that you could receive co director credit. I had no idea. Mhmm. That seems warm.

我记得那天...是的。嗯，能不能

I remember the day that yeah. Yeah. Well, can

你能否描述下那天发生了什么？

you describe what happened on that day?

不，他只是告诉我他刚刚这么做了。是的。他说...他说，他们说你不具备那个...那个词是什么来着？不是资质。

No. He just told me he just did it. Yeah. He said he he said, I they said you didn't have the what was the word for? It wasn't credentials.

类似这样的话。他只是咧嘴一笑。他说，所以我辞职了。因为他不想有任何阻碍我们前进的事情。他知道在片场我需要权威，因为那些人都是他的班底。

Something along those lines. He just grinned. He said, so I quit. Because he didn't want anything to stand in the way of us just moving ahead. He knew that I needed the authority on the set because they were his people.

那里的每个人对他都极其忠诚，他需要能够将这种忠诚传递给我，这样才能让事情按照我们双方需要的方式顺利进行。

And everybody there, they were so loyal to him that he need to be able to bequeath that to me to to to for things to really work the way both of us needed them to.

和罗伯特一起拍那部电影感觉如何？你们是如何分工或协调职责的？有次...

What was it like working on that film with Robert? How did you divide or mesh your duties? At one

有个制片人做了张荒谬的海报，把我俩画成双头怪兽，因为我们全程都紧密合作。还有次我们隔着彼此喊指令，虽然说的基本都是同样的话。但有一次我们说的不完全一致，而布兰妮·墨菲正处在...

point, somebody in production made this ridiculous poster of the two of us as a two headed beast because we were working right on top of each other the whole time. There was an another point where we were shooting orders right past each other, although we were almost always saying the same thing. But there was one point where we weren't saying exactly the same thing. And there was Britney Murphy in in the middle of One of the

其中一位演员。嗯。

One of the actors. Mhmm.

对。她当时...你知道，她穿着暴露的酒保服装，直接把托盘抛向空中说'托亚家人们'。不过总的来说，这就像一场美梦。过了一阵子，他们甚至不需要知道该找谁解决哪类问题了。

Yeah. And she she, you know, she there she was in a as a stantily clad barmaid, and she just tossed up her I think she tossed her tray in the air and says, there's Toa, fam. But generally, it was just it was just a dream. After a while, they didn't need to know which one to go to for which kind of problem.

是演员们做的。

The actors did.

对，哦对。我是说，还有制作团队也是。

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's and and so did production.

那他们会删减哪些类型的问题？我真是...我真是...

So would they cut what were those different types of problems? I'm so I'm so

嗯，任何与电影制作技术相关的事肯定是罗伯特负责。罗伯特，对吧。但涉及到角色内在塑造时...

Well, certainly anything to do with really the mechanics of making the movie was Robert. Robert. Right. You know, but when it came to the internal work of the characters

角色的动机。

The motivations of the characters.

背景故事，还有...如果他们想尝试新东西，我能很快判断是否符合角色设定。我们经常两人单独碰头讨论，有无数次罗伯特来找我说：'这里需要新镜头'、'需要新场景'。记得有次他说：'弗兰克，这儿得加点新东西'。

Histories, the the the the and, you know, some or if they wanted to try something out, I could fairly quickly tell them whether it was in character or not. And then we would often just get together, the two of us, go over a bunch of stuff. And there were any number of cases where Robert would come to me and say, I need a new shot here. I need a new scene. I remember one time he said he said, I need something new here, Frank.

必须快，必须低成本，还必须出彩。我们就拿了张纸坐下来，那是我最过瘾的创作经历之一。速度快得离谱，你懂吧？

It's gotta be quick. It's gotta be cheap, and it's gotta be brilliant. And we just sat down with a sheet of paper, and was some of the most fun I ever had. Working so damn fast and you know?

我和罗伯特在奥斯汀共处过很长时间，了解他的为人，我能预见你们俩合作的样子。是的，这对我来说很容易想象。没错。

And knowing Robert, having spent a good amount of time with him, we both live in Austin, I can see both of you working together. Yeah. It's very easy for me to see. Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

我建议大家去听听我和罗伯特做过的那些节目。先从第一期关于他创作历程和生平的那集开始，不过他以前是画漫画的，对吧？他画漫画，行事风格非常不拘一格。

I encourage people to listen to my episodes I've done with Robert. Start with the first one about his creative process and bio, but he used to draw comics. Right? He drew comics. He's very unorthodox.

他从不觉得自己必须遵循固定规则。虽然不确定他在《罪恶之城》片场是否这样，但他经常让演员们画画，自己则弹着吉他。

He doesn't feel like he has to follow a fixed set of rules. And I don't know if he did this on set for Sin City, but he'll often have actors painting. He'll be playing guitar.

这点太关键了。没错，他总是想让创作灵感持续迸发。有次他在奥斯汀租了个场地——

That was so important. Yeah. Yeah. He always wanted to keep the creative juices flowing. You know, there was one time when when they he rented out a hall in Austin.

布鲁斯·威利斯和他的乐队在那里演出。哦真的吗？是啊，就看到布鲁斯·威利斯在台上，你知道的，像斯普林斯汀那样激情四射。

Bruce Willis and his band play. Oh, really? Yeah. So there's Bruce Willis up there, you know Mhmm. Pounding it out like you're doing his Springsteen.

让创作灵感源源不断。

You keep the keep the creative juices flowing.

是啊，是啊。

Yeah. Yeah.

他确实言行一致。而且，虽然这对大家来说可能是显而易见的，但当我看到你创作的《罪恶之城》时，从镜头角度和构图来看，它本身就极具电影感和导演风格。我甚至在看到分镜脚本时也一直有这种感觉。我就想，好吧，即便不完全相同，但确实有很多相似之处。

And he really walks the talk. And also, I may be stating the obvious for people, but when I look at, say, Sin City as you created it here, it's so inherently cinematic and directorial in terms of angles, framing. I've always felt that way even looking at, say, storyboards. I'm like, okay. Well, I mean, there's the if not the same, certainly, I mean, but there are there's a lot that rhymes.

嗯。所以当我看到这些创新时，无论是回顾杰克·科比早期的作品，还是观察日本漫画的影响及其对动态的不同捕捉方式，都会让我联想到电影领域的创新。比如黑泽明在《罗生门》中运用多重视角的手法，你就会发现，其实你们在解决许多相同的问题，锻炼着相似的创作能力。

Mhmm. And so when I'm looking at these innovations with say, whether it's back in the day with Jack Kirby or looking at some of the Japanese influences and how they capture motion differently, it makes me think of innovations in film at the same time where you think of like a Kurosawa doing like a Roshomon and and inserting multiple perspective, and you're like, okay. I mean, the you're solving a lot of the same problems and exercising seemingly a lot of the same creative muscles.

是啊。不过这就是媒体的运作方式，艺术的规律。有趣的是，很多人拼命假装自己是在真空中工作，但没人能做到。影响是持续且不可阻挡的。

Yeah. Well, and and that's the way media works, though. That's the way art forms work. It's funny because it's like, you know, so many people strive so hard to act as if they work in a vacuum, and no one does. And the influences are constant and inexorable.

这其实就是艺术的魅力所在。偶尔确实会有惊才绝艳的人物出现，但就连希区柯克也有他的源头。你可以追溯他的灵感来源，比如威尔斯或其他影响。

That's kind of the beauty of the beast, really. Yeah. I mean, occasionally, it is one piercing person will come through. But even Hitchcock came from somewhere. You can even root you know, cut back to what he sprung from or wells or whatever.

甚至这两个人之间也存在激烈竞争，走过许多相似的轨迹。所以这就像，你知道的，一切都混杂在一起。

And even those two were in pretty tight competition and did a lot of the same tracks. So it's it's like, you know, it's all a big mishmash.

除了你参与过的电影，你最喜欢的电影有哪些？无论是剧情片、纪录片还是其他类型？

Outside of the films you've been involved with, what are some of your favorite films, whether they are scripted documentary or otherwise?

我是黑白老电影的忠实粉丝，这没什么好隐瞒的。你知道吗？但这不仅仅是《黑色橄榄》这类黑色电影。我可以给你讲巴黎黑色电影的章节，但这些内容在书里和其他地方随处可见。

I'm a big fan of old black and white. It's no secret. You know? But that's not just the Olive Film Noir. I can give you chapter in Paris on Film Noir, but that's all over the book and everywhere else.

《卡真之家》绝对是一部杰作。让我想起《凯恩舰哗变》。

Cajun House is an absolute masterpiece. Like, Kane Mutiny comes to mind.

我不太熟悉这部电影。什么是

I'm not familiar with it. What is

《凯恩舰哗变》？《凯恩舰哗变》是一个二战故事，由演技精湛的亨弗莱·鲍嘉主演，他饰演的角色完全颠覆了人们对他的期待。他扮演了一个近乎尼克松式的二战驱逐舰扫雷舰长，极度偏执。弗雷德·麦克默里也出演了一个意想不到的角色——这可不是《我的三个儿子》里那种形象。

the Kane Mutiny? Kane Mutiny is a World War two story featuring an absolutely brilliant Humphrey Bogart Bogart playing exactly the opposite of the kind of character you'd expect him to play. He plays an almost Richard Nixonian figure of a World War two destroyer, minesweeper pilot who is completely paranoid. Fred McMurray plays a character you would never expect him to play. This is not my three sons.

这是弗雷德里克·默里作为严肃演员饰演军事律师的突破之作，堪称公海上偏执心理的研究典范。这部电影吸引你的是什么？还是你单纯被剧情吸引？

This is this is Frederick Murray as a very serious actor playing a playing a military lawyer, and it's a study in paranoia on the high seas. What appeals to you about the movie, or do you just get swept on it?

是因为这些演员演绎了与大众印象截然相反的角色吗？还是有其他原因？

Is it that these actors are doing what seems diametrically opposed to what people associate them with? Is it something else?

嗯，其实不只是因为反差——我本身就钟爱严肃戏剧。而且我特别喜欢看像鲍嘉这样的演员突破类型限制。虽然《马耳他之鹰》为他定型了整个职业生涯，但在此之前他塑造过许多性格多变的卑劣小人角色。我记得他还在一部改编自詹姆斯·M.小说的作品中演过偏执杀手。

Well, I'm not pretty I just love high drama. And I often do love to see an actor like Bogard play a character who you don't expect. Maltese Falcon typecast him for the rest of his career. Before that, he played many, many roles, which were often shifting, nasty little men. And he played a paranoid killer once in an adaptation, I believe, of a James M.

凯恩小说。而且，你知道，我特别喜欢看到演员们摆脱观众期待束缚时的表现。罗伯特·米彻姆能做到的那些事，他确实非同凡响。但我也喜欢看那些真正在探索自身可能性的电影，那些正在寻找自我的作品。比如《愤怒的葡萄》，这部电影在追寻自己的定位，但它的探索方式极具感染力。

Kane novel. And, you know, I I love to see the actors when they aren't trapped by the audience's expectations. The things that Robert Mitchum was capable of, he was pretty extraordinary. But also I like to see the movies that that really were discovering what they could do and, well, are finding them. If you look at Grapes of Wrath, that movie is hunting for what it is, but it's doing so in such a compelling way.

它以一种令人心碎的方式呈现。亨利·方达在那部电影中的表现堪称非凡。而且，我就是喜欢被伟大导演掌控的感觉。这就是为什么我总是不停地回到希区柯克的作品里。我太爱重温他的老电影了。

It's got it in such a aching way. Henry Fonda is extraordinary in that movie. And, also, I just like to get in the hands of a great director. That's why I do keep getting back to his shock. I love falling back into one of his old movies.

我经常看《蝴蝶梦》，真的，每晚都看。

I get a lot watch Rebecca, I swear, every night.

我从来没看过。看来必须把它列入我的

I've never seen it. So that's gotta be on my

哦，那片子太棒了

Oh, it is so good

待看清单。

To watch.

而且这是你能看到的最浪漫的电影之一，偶尔还非常诡异。这是部约会电影。

And it is one the most romantic movies you'll ever see, and it's, occasionally very spooky. It's a date movie.

搞定了。谢谢你帮我做作业。除了漫画本身，还有哪些艺术家或艺术形式影响了你的其他作品？

Done. Thanks for doing my homework for me. What artists or art forms have influenced the work that you do outside of comics themselves?

嗯，电影。影响很大。还有我读过的很多书，你知道的，非常多。

Well, movies. A lot. And lots of books I've read, you know. Lots of books.

哪些类型的书？

What types of books?

我成长过程中读过米奇·斯皮兰的小说，由此涉猎了所有其他犯罪题材。后来不知怎么，我爱上了古代历史。这就是《300勇士》等作品的灵感来源。历史就是无尽的宝藏，每转一个方向都能发现更多。

When I grew up reading Mickey Spillane novels, and from that, all the other crime stuff. And somewhere along, I fell in love with, like, ancient history. And, you know, that's where I got 300 and all of that. The history is just it's endless wealth. It's like everywhere you turn, there's more and more to get.

这非常令人震撼。小时候我看了很多电视，但具体也说不上来。是啊。

It's been very breathtaking. When I was a kid, I watched a lot of TV, but I don't know. Yeah.

让我们回到《300勇士》和你在好莱坞的其他冒险。你学到了什么？我这么问有点自私。我工作时是个控制狂，彻头彻尾的控制狂。我很多朋友也是，我见过太多当好莱坞及其体系与视作品如己出的创作者相撞时发生的灾难。

Let's come back to 300 and your other adventures in Hollywood. What have you learned? Because I ask this selfishly. When I work on my stuff, I'm a control freak, complete control freak. And a lot of my friends are control freaks, and I've just seen a number of different train wrecks when Hollywood and the structures in Hollywood collide with a creative who has a story or something that they view as their baby.

我见过太多混乱局面，所以想请教你在娱乐业或好莱坞工作中学到了什么。

I've just seen a lot of messes, and I'm wondering what you have learned about working in entertainment or Hollywood.

哦，其实我有个最重要的原则。就是，比任何事情都重要的是，找到合适的人。当我与合适的人共事时，经历总是美妙的，结果也总是出色的。你是怎么...

Oh, well, I've got one overriding thing. Okay. Which is just I mean, more important than anything else is, you know, the right people. It's like when I've worked with the right people, the experiences have been wonderful and the results have been wonderful. How do you

判断谁才是合适的人呢？毕竟洛杉矶有太多圆滑的家伙。无意冒犯任何洛杉矶人。但老兄，你会不会只听到想听的话？

know for you who the right people are? Because there's so many slick folks in LA. No offense to anyone in LA. I know. But, man, do you get told what you wanna hear?

嗯哼。我很想知道你在行业里摸爬滚打后，是如何识人的。我不...

Uh-huh. And I'd love to know how you identify having spent some time in the trenches. I don't

说不好，伙计。我只能告诉你，我有次极其走运，另一次更是幸运得难以形容。遇到扎克·施奈德是莫大的幸运，因为那次是他掌控全局，他全权负责。

know, man. All I can tell you is that is that I've been exceedingly lucky once. I've been unspeakably lucky the other time. I was exceeding lucky with Zach Snyder because in his case, it was he was taking control. He was gonna do it.

明白吗？他做得非常出色。而和罗伯特·罗德里格兹合作简直是天堂，那是人生难得的冒险经历。当合作没那么紧密时，结果往往就...你懂的。

Okay? And he did a brilliant job. In in the case of Robert Rodriguez, that was heaven because it was the adventure of life's said a lifetime. When it's been more distant than that, it's been bye bye baby more. You know?

情况总是这样，自然而然发生的。但就像我参与的漫威漫画改编作品，最后看到自己的创作被混搭得像《辣手神探》加《史酷比》，难免会让人觉得...没那么带劲了。

It's been that's been the same thing, that it just happens. But it's something I did like, you know, if it's something that I did in a, you know, Marvel comic that gets adapted, that I end up seeing pieces of what I did mixed in with things that feel like they came out of a Dirty Harry movie, mixed with things that came out of Scooby Doo, and it's it all gets a little, you know, less exciting.

假设你在未来十二个月创作了部杰作，整个好莱坞都在争抢。你如何决定与谁合作？会打电话问罗伯特'你觉得这些人怎么样'吗？还是同样咨询扎克·施奈德？

Let's just say you created a masterpiece in the next twelve months that everyone in Hollywood's fighting over. How do you make some of the important decisions about who to work with? Do you call Robert and you're like, hey, what do you think about these people? Do you call Zach Snyder and ask him the same question?

答案就在房间对面。我是说，赛琳·托马斯管理着我的公司，她确实非常专业。在我还没听说任何事之前，她就已经认识这些人，了解他们的所作所为。我甚至不会称之为雇佣。

The answer is right across the room. I mean, Celine Thomas runs my company and she really knows what she's doing. And before I really hear about anything, she already knows all these people and what they're doing and everything. I wouldn't even call it a hire.

这是

It's a

这是一种合作关系。

it's a partnership.

是啊，你懂吧？

Yeah. You know?

我就是这个意思。

That's what I mean.

条条大路通赛琳。她正在背景里鞠躬呢。

All roads lead to Celine. She's bowing in the background.

她在挥手示意我们离开。我

She's waving us away. I

想问问关于酒精的事。你和酒精的关系如何？它对你有利还是有弊？

wanna ask about alcohol. What is your relationship to alcohol? What has it done for or against you?

哦，这个问题我不会说它容易，但足够简单，尤其是你这样的提问方式。简单回答，没有。说它对我有害，是谎言。对我有利，也没有。完全没有。

Oh, that's I wouldn't call it an easy question, but it's a simple enough one, especially the way you phrased it. Simple answer, no. Against me, a lie. For me, nothing. Nothing.

我花了很长时间才得出这个结论。这是我人生中一个重要的方面。这是一种我放任失控的遗传倾向。我得说我确实用它来解除抑制，可能因此工作得非常、非常有成效，做出了一些有灵感的、偶尔鲁莽的事。但它的有害影响以及对我生活其他方面的影响，不。

It's taken a long time to come to that conclusion. It's a big old aspect of my life. It's a it's a genetic condition that I allow to get out of control. I would say I did use it to disinhibit me and probably worked very, very productively because of it, and did stuff that was inspired, occasionally reckless. But the deleterious effects and the ways it's affected other parts of my life, no.

它没给我带来一丁点好处。我是被迫戒酒的。我和其他人都认定我会死，他们安排我住进一个地方接受监护。你知道，时间必须流逝，药物需要服用，这类事情需要时间。我真心实意地告诉你。

It hasn't done me a goddamn bit of good. I was coerced to stop. I was I was Silen and others decided I was gonna die, and they arranged for me to be put in a place and watched. And, you know, the time had to pass, and and, you know, medicines given and that sort of thing takes a while. I will tell you this in all sincerity.

这对你们俩来说都不是儿戏。在这方面，我正经历人生中最美好的时光。我是说，在创造力方面，就像现在我可以认真起来了。好吧。

This is not boxering and bit for either one of you. I'm having the time of my life in that respect. I mean, creatively, it's just like I'm now I'm going like, okay. Now I can get serious. Okay.

你知道，就像，戒酒后会发生什么。我想任何类似的瘾症都是这样。你意识不到内心积压了多少愤怒，以及你以为的燃料是什么。我是说，我以为我是被这种火焰驱动的。哦，它并不滋养你。

You know, it's like, for one thing is what happens when you get off the sauce. I imagine any addictions like this. You don't realize how much anger that has been bottled up in and how what you thought was fuel. I mean, I thought I was fueled by all this, you know, this kinda like fire. Oh, it doesn't feel you.

它并不滋养你。就像说便秘时胃部这种感觉很棒一样。保持专注和行动要好得多。清醒的感觉相当美妙。

It doesn't feel you. It's like saying, oh, it's great to have my stomach feel this way when you're constipated. It's a lot better to be focused and moving. Clarity is quite lovely.

那么，戒酒本身是否消解了怒火或愤怒，还是清醒状态让你能以某种方式更好地处理这些情绪？

So did the getting off of alcohol in and of itself dissipate the fire or the anger, or did the getting sober allow you to better deal with that in some way?

它能帮助你理解何时何地适合表达愤怒。值得愤怒的事情很多。但他不是这种游离的状态——我是在生自己的气吗？还是在生这个世界的气？

It helps you understand when and where it's appropriate. There's plenty to be angry about. But he's not this free floating, am I mad at myself? Am I mad at the world?

对于一个想要进入漫画行业的专注新手，你会给什么建议？我是说

What advice would you give to a dedicated novice who's looking to get into comics, and I'm

以为他们是想开始喝酒。

thinking they're looking to get into drinking.

比如，开始喝酒。等等。他们应该...你最喜欢的鸡尾酒是什么？不对。是漫画。

Like, get into drinking. Wait. Where should they what's your favorite cocktail? No. Comics.

对。

Yeah.

而且他们是这门技艺的学生，他们痴迷于此，非常专注。是的。他们拥有尼尔可能在你身上看到的那些原始天赋。嗯。对吧？

And they're they're a student of the craft, they're obsessed, they're dedicated. Yeah. They have the raw ingredients that maybe Neil saw on you. Mhmm. Right?

你会给他们什么建议？

What advice would you give to them?

就像我在书里说的，就是故事、故事、故事。首先，把它视为一门手艺。不要分开考虑写作和绘画。这是一回事，随着深入自然会明白。但更重要的是，漫画创作是将复杂的事物变得简单。

It's what I said in the book, which is story, story, story. First, think of it as one craft. Don't think of writing and drawing. It's one thing, and it will become clear what it is. But beyond that, it's cartooning is making things that are complicated and making them quite simple.

这才是你最该关注的地方。现阶段，复杂化不是你的朋友。要传达信息，然后学习——比如拿起斯科特·麦克劳德的《理解漫画》，看看他是如何解析漫画运作原理的。同时，阅读西德·菲尔格的剧本创作书，掌握三幕式叙事的简洁方法。

That's where your mind should be going more than anywhere else. At this stage, complication is not your friend. The convey information, then learn learn that I mean, pick up Scott McCloud's book on understanding comics, for instance, and see how he breaks down how comics work. At the same time, pick up Sid Fiegel's book on screenplay. Get a good sense for a simple approach to three act storytelling.

你会用这个方法一两年，之后就不会再用了。但它能带你入门。学会如何画画。

You'll use it for a year or two, then, you know, you won't be using it anymore. But it gets you somewhere. Learn how to draw.

怎么学画画？书里应该提到过，尼尔·亚当斯建议你买些玩具车来学习正确绘制汽车。这建议太棒了。

How do you learn how to draw? I think this is in the book, but Neil Adams telling you to go out and buy some toy cars so you can learn how to draw cars correctly. That was great advice. Great advice.

对吧？多好的建议啊！如此简单的解决方法。学画画有什么难的？

Right? What great advice? So what a simple solve. What a simple solution. How does someone learn to draw?

是啊，比如画人。人体才是大难题，天啊，各种棘手技巧。我可以推荐几本书给你。

Yeah. Like humans. Humans are the big problem, you know. And, oh, man, every dirty trick there is. I mean, I can give you some names of some books.

好的，那太棒了。

Yeah. That'd be great.

请说。乔治·布里奇曼。乔治·布里奇曼。好的。没问题。

Please. George Bridgeman. George Bridgeman. Yeah. Okay.

布里奇曼（Bridgeman）这个词里没有字母e。乔治（George）里有e，这是完全的生活绘画指南，只专注于人物画。

There's no e in it in Bridgeman. There is an e in George, and it's the complete guide to drawing from life. It's only about the figure.

你为什么喜欢那本书？绘画书籍那么多，为什么偏爱这一本？

Why do you like that book? There's so many books on drawing. Why do you like this one?

这本书之所以好，是因为作者本质上是个漫画家。他把身体当作机器来处理，这样更容易理解。你能学到动态感，但最终还得靠自己领悟。内容完全非摄影式，介于米开朗基罗的思维和漫画家的思维之间。

This one's good for because he's at heart a cartoonist. He treats the body like a machine, so it's easier to understand. You do get the gesture, but you'll have to bring that yourself anyway. Stuff's completely non photographic. It's somewhere between the thinking of Michelangelo and the thinking of a comic book artist.