#839：李飞飞博士，AI教母——提出大胆问题、文明科技与寻找你的北极星

要知道，这比物体分类还要复杂得多。

You know, that's even more complicated than objects.

但那样就过于复杂了。

But then that's dialing too complicated.

所以每个科学探索都必须有正确的假设并提出正确的问题。

So every scientific quest you have to have the right hypothesis and asking the right question.

因此成功的部分原因在于我们将视觉物体分类定义为正确的假设。

So that's one part of the success is we defined visual object categorization as the right hypothesis.

我想这是其中一个正确之处。

That was one rightness I guess.

另一个正确之处在于人们总以为'哦这很简单，只要收集大量数据就行'。

Another rightness is that people just think, oh it's easy, you just collect a lot of data.

首先这工作非常繁琐，但即便抛开繁琐性不谈，你如何定义数据质量？

Well first of all it's laborious, but even aside from being laborious, how do you define the quality?

你可能会说'如果数量足够大，我们就不在乎质量'

You could say, well if quality is big enough we don't care about quality.

但你如何在大小与优劣之间进行权衡？

But how do you dial between what is big, what good?

又该如何取舍？

And how do you trade off?

这是一个需要我们深入研究的重要科学问题。

That is a deeply scientific question that we have to do a lot of research on.

另一个极其困难的决策是关于如何定义图像质量的标准？

And then another decision that is a set of decisions that is really hard is what defines quality in terms of image?

是每张图像都必须有更高分辨率吗？

Is it every image has higher resolution?

是要达到照片级真实感吗？

Is it it's photorealistic?

是因为它是看起来非常杂乱的日常图像吗？

Is it because it's everyday image that looks very cluttered?

还是所有产品图都要看起来干净整洁？

Is it all product shots that look clean?

这些问题如果你离得太远甚至都不会想到要问，但作为科学家，在我们构建物体识别这一深刻问题时，我们必须从多个维度来探讨。

These are questions that if you're too far away you wouldn't even think about asking, but as a scientist, as we were formulating the deep question of object recognition, we have to ask this in so many dimensions.

然后你提到了亚马逊土耳其机器人。

And then you mentioned Amazon Mechanical Turk.

这其实是出于绝望的无奈之举。

That is actually a consequence of desperation.

因为当我们提出这个假设时，我们的结论是需要至少数千万张跨越所有可能维度的优质图像，无论是用户照片、产品图还是库存摄影，同时还需要高质量的标注。

Because when we formulated this hypothesis our conclusion is we need at least tens of millions of high quality images across every possible diverse dimension, whether it's user photos, or is it product shots, or is it stock photography, like, and then we need also high quality labels.

一旦做出这个决定，我们就意识到必须从数十亿张图像中人工筛选。

Once we made that decision we realized this has to be human filtered from billions of images.

因此我们变得非常绝望。

So with that we became very desperate.

我们当时想，这该怎么办？

We were like, how are we going to do that?

你知道，我确实尝试过雇佣普林斯顿的本科生。

You know, I did try to hire Princeton undergrads.

如你所知，普林斯顿本科生非常聪明，但

As you know, Princeton undergrads are very smart, but

他们对自己时间的价值评价很高。

They have very high opinion of the value of their time.

是的，而且他们很贵，但即使我有全世界的钱（实际上我们没有），那也会花费太长时间。

Yes, and they're expensive, but even if I had all the money in the world, which we didn't, it would have taken so long.

所以我们被卡住很久很久。

So we were very very stuck for very very long.

我们以为有其他捷径，但事实是人工标注才是黄金标准。

We thought we had other shortcuts, but the truth is human labeling is a gold standard.

我们希望训练出能与人类能力匹敌的机器，所以当时不能走捷径。

We want to train machines that are measured against human capabilities, so we cannot shortcut that at that time.

于是我们不得不转向后来发现的众包工程、众包技术，这在当时还是亚马逊刚推出约一年的新技术。

So we had to go to what we eventually found out called crowd engineering, crowd sourcing, and that was a very new technology, was barely a year old or so by Amazon.

他们创建了一个在线市场，让人们通过完成能上传到互联网的小任务来赚钱。

They created an online marketplace for people to do small tasks to earn money when these tasks can be uploaded on the internet.

我记得当我听说亚马逊土耳其机器人时，我登录了我的亚马逊账户，and the first task I checked out to do, just to try, was labeling wine bottles or transcribing wine bottle labels.

I remembered when I heard about Amazon Mechanical Turk, I logged into my Amazon account, I checked the first task I checked out to do, just to try, was labeling wine bottles or transcribing wine bottle labels.

任务会给你一张葡萄酒瓶的图片，你需要标注这是1999年份的某某酒之类的信息。

So the task will give you a picture of a wine bottle and you have to say this is 1999 bird dough and all that.

人们上传这类微任务后，像我这样的在线工作者就可以在闲暇时登录平台，领取任务并获取报酬。

So people upload these kind of micro tasks and then online workers, like someone in their leisure time like me, if I had leisure time, I would just go sign up and get paid to do that.

我们意识到，在绝望中，这实际上是通过全球在线人口进行的大规模并行处理来为我们完成这项工作。

And we realized that was, again out of desperation, that was a massive parallel processing with online global population to do this for us.

就这样，我们标记了数十亿张图像，并从中提炼出1500万张高质量图片。

And that's how we labeled billions of images and distilled it down to 15,000,000 high quality images.

当你回顾这些故事时，感觉真是太不可思议了。

It's just so wild when you look at these stories.

我刚读完一本关于基因泰克的书，里面提到了许多让事情得以实现的小技术转折点。

Just finished a book on Genentech, and there were all these little technical inflection points that also allowed things to happen.

所以如果早五年或者可能早三年，没有Mechanical Turk的话，天啊，那会是个大挑战。

So if it had been five years earlier or maybe three years earlier, right, without Mechanical Turk, boy, like, presents a challenge.

但正如你指出的，在科学领域，获得答案是一回事，但前期需要基于合理假设或好问题来输入。

But also, as you pointed out, I mean, in science, it's one thing to get answers, but you need the input on the front end with a proper hypothesis or a good question.

即便是使用Mechanical Turk，如果只关注雇佣机制本身，也可能陷入困境。比如我读到过这个例子：如果人们因识别照片中的熊猫而获得报酬，那么有什么能阻止他们在每张照片中都标注熊猫——无论照片里是否真有熊猫？

And even with Mechanical Turk, if you're only focused on the mechanics of employing that, you can get yourself into trouble because if humans are incentivized to let's just say, I think this was the example I read about, identify pandas in photographs and they're paid for identifying pandas, well, what's to stop them from identifying a panda in every photo, whether they exist in the photos or not?

没错。

Yes.

所以你也必须考虑激励机制的设计。

So you have to follow the incentives as well.

你们是如何解决这个问题的？

How did you solve for that?

是的，我明白。

Yeah, I know.

这就是为什么我和我的学生花了数不清的时间讨论质量控制问题。

This is where, you know, my student and I had I cannot tell you how many hours and hours of conversation we have about controlling the quality.

我们必须通过多个步骤来解决这个问题。

We have to solve for that in multiple steps.

我们首先需要筛选出认真对待工作的线上工作者，例如设置一些前置测试，确保他们理解什么是熊猫，阅读问题说明。通过测试后，他们才能开始标注熊猫图片。但我们事先准备了部分已知正确答案的图片——有些确实是熊猫，有些不是，标注者并不知情。

We need to first filter out online workers who are serious about doing the work, So for example we have to have some upfront quizzes so that they understand what a panda is, they read the question, and then once they qualify for that, we ask them to label PANDAS, but there are some images we have pre, we know the correct answers, some are true PANDAS, some of them are not true PANDAS, so the labelers don't know.

这样我们通过掌握黄金标准答案的位置，就能间接监控标注质量。

So in a way we implicitly monitor the quality of the work by knowing where the gold standard answers are.

这类计算策略是我们确保标注质量必须采用的方法。

So these are the kind of computational tactics we have to use to ensure the quality of labeling.

太棒了。

Amazing.

是啊，简直不可思议。

Yeah, just incredible.

好的。

Alright.

我想推荐一本书，我朋友小迈克·梅普尔斯写的《模式破坏者》。

And I'll actually just put a recommendation out there for a book, Pattern Breakers, by a friend of mine, Mike Maples Jr.

他最初教会我天使投资的诀窍。在识别拐点方面，当某些技术趋势首次交汇使某事成为可能时——就像你们创建ImageNet的案例中，具备相关知识储备的你和合作者们抓住的机遇——《模式破坏者》对这类情况是非常好的读物。

He taught me the ropes initially of angel investing, but in terms of identifying inflection points and converging technological in some cases, converging technological trends that for the first time makes something possible, which then opens an opportunity, right, for something with the right prepared mind in your case and those of your collaborators and the people you built upon for something like ImageNet, Pattern Breakers is a really good read for folks.

那我们暂且跳到当下，我很想请教你，毕竟你被我们的校友杂志和其他地方称为AI教母。

So let's hop to modern day then for a moment, and I would love to ask you, right, because you've been called the godmother of AI in our alumni magazine, in fact, and elsewhere.

但你不仅拥有技术视角，更有历史性的观察维度。

But you've you've had such a not just technical, but historical viewpoint.

也就是说，在很长的时间跨度里——以AI领域的标准而言相当广阔——你见证了这个技术的发展、分支、风险与希望。

Meaning, you've over a broad timeline, you've been well, broad by AI standards, been able to watch the development and forking and perils and promise of this technology.

人们忽略了什么？

What are people missing?

你认为什么话题吸走了所有注意力？

What do you think is eating up all the oxygen in the room?

人们遗漏了哪些关键？

What are people missing?

无论是他们应该了解的事实，还是应该保持怀疑的方面，抑或其他。

Whether it's things they should know or things they should be skeptical of or otherwise.

尤其是我现在正从硅谷中心地带给你打电话。

Especially I'm here calling you from the heart of Silicon Valley.

我认为人们忽视了人在AI中的重要性，这个观点有多个层面，即AI绝对是一项文明级技术。

Think people are missing the importance of people in AI, and there's multiple facades or dimensions to this statement, is that AI is absolutely a civilizational technology.

我将文明级技术定义为：由于这项技术的强大力量，它已经对我们的社会在经济、社会、文化、政治等方面产生了深远的下游影响。

I define civilizational technology in the sense that because of the power of this technology it'll have already having a profound impact in the economic, social, cultural, political, downstream effects of our society.

我刚听说——这尚未证实——去年美国GDP增长的50%要归功于AI的增长。

So I just heard, this is unverified, but I just heard that 50% of The US GDP growth last year is attributed to AI growth.

具体来说，这个数字是美国GDP增长了4%。

So apparently this number is 4% for US GDP, have grown 4%.

如果剔除AI因素，增长率只有2%。

If you take away AI, it's only 2%.

这就是它的意义所在。

That's what it means.

从经济角度来看，这就是文明级的影响。

So that's civilizational from an economic point of view.

它显然正在重新定义我们的文化，对吧？

It's obviously redefining our culture, right?

想想看，你正在谈论一个让整个房间都为之窒息的话题。

Think about, you're talking about the word sucking oxygen out of the room.

从好莱坞到华尔街，从硅谷到政治竞选，再到TikTok、YouTube和Instagram，无处不在。

Everywhere from Hollywood to Wall Street to Silicon Valley to political campaign to TikTok to YouTube, to Insta.

日本的出租车。

Taxis in Japan.

我刚去过那里，出租车后排座椅头枕上播放的视频全都在讨论人工智能。

I was just there, and the videos playing on the back of the headset in the taxi were all talking about AI.

它无处不在。

It's everywhere.

这具有文化影响力。

It's culturally impactful.

不仅是影响，它正在改变我们的文化。

Not only impactful, it's shifting our culture.

它将改变教育体系。

It's gonna shift education.

如今每位父母都在思考孩子该学什么才能拥有更好的未来。

Every parent today is wondering what should their kids study to have a better future.

每位祖父母都在说，真庆幸自己出生得早，不用面对人工智能，却仍为孙辈的未来担忧。

Every grandparent is saying, I'm so glad I'm born early, I don't have to deal with AI, but still worry about their grandchildren's future.

因此人工智能是一项文明级技术。

So AI is a civilizational technology.

但我认为目前缺失的是，硅谷热衷于讨论技术及其带来的增长。

But what I think is missing right now is that Silicon Valley is very eager to talk about tech and the growth that comes with the tech.

政客们大概只热衷于谈论能赢得选票的话题。

Politicians are just eager to talk about whatever gets the vote, I guess.

但归根结底，人才是一切的核心。

But really at the end of the day, people are at the heart of everything.

人类创造了AI，人类将使用AI，人类会受到AI影响，人类理应对AI拥有话语权。

People made AI, people will be using AI, people will be impacted by AI, and people should have a say in AI.

无论AI如何发展，人类作为个体、社群和社会成员的尊严都不应被剥夺。

And no matter how AI advances, people's self dignity as individuals, as a community, as a society should not be taken away.

这正是我所担忧的，因为我认为有太多焦虑源于尊严感、自主权以及作为未来一部分的认同感正在部分人群中逐渐消失。

And that's what I worry about because I think there's so much more anxiety that because the sense of dignity and sense of agency, sense of being part of the future is slipping in some people.

我认为我们需要改变这种状况。

And I think we need to change that.

首先感谢我们的赞助商，节目稍后继续。

Just a quick thanks to our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show.

对市场和资金而言这是疯狂的一年，但管理现金不必成为一场猜谜游戏。

It has been a wild year for money in the markets, but managing your cash doesn't have to be a guessing game.

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Wealthfront has a simple solution to help you cut through all the chaos and manage your money with confidence.

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With the Wealthfront Cash account, your cash can earn 3.5% variable annual percentage yield from partner banks.

您可以随时向符合条件的账户进行即时免手续费提现。

You get instant fee free withdrawals to eligible accounts twenty four seven.

您的资金在需要时总能随时取用。

Your money is always accessible when you need it.

当你准备好投资时，将资金转入Wealthfront专家构建的投资组合中简直易如反掌。

And when you're ready to invest, transferring funds into one of Wealthfront's expert built investing portfolios is easy peasy.

限时优惠期间，Wealthfront为我的听众（就是你们）提供为期三个月的基础利率额外0.65%加成，这意味着你的前15万美元存款可获得高达4.15%的年收益率。

For a limited time, Wealthfront is offering my listeners, that's you guys, an additional 0.65% boost over the base rate for three months, which means you can get up to 4.15% APY on your first $150,000 in deposits.

已有超过100万人信任Wealthfront来帮助他们积累财富。

More than 1,000,000 people trust Wealthfront to help build their wealth.

访问wealthfront.com/tim即可获得加成年收益率优惠，立即开始赚取高达4.15%的浮动年收益率。

Go to wealthfront.com/tim to receive the boosted APY offer and start earning up to 4.15% variable APY today.

这是Wealthfront的付费推广内容。

This is a paid endorsement of Wealthfront.

Wealthfront经纪业务并非银行机构。

Wealthfront brokerage isn't a bank.

基础年收益率截至2025年11月7日有效，并可能发生变动。

The base APY is as of 11/07/2025 and subject to change.

更多信息请参阅节目描述。

For more information, see the episode description.

嘿，各位。

Hey, folks.

我是Tim。

Tim here.

我与爆炸猫团队合作制作的畅销卡牌游戏《Coyote》，刚刚荣获2025年Pop Insider最佳极客游戏奖，以及2025年Made for Mums玩具奖的最佳圣诞袜填充物奖。

My best selling card game Coyote, which I made with the amazing team at Exploding Kittens, just won the Pop Insider best geeky game of 2025 and also best stocking filler in the Made for Mums Toy Awards twenty twenty five.

这款游戏正在全球热销中。

It is on sale everywhere.

价格实惠。

It's cheap.

上手超快。

It's fast to learn.

五星好评4.8分。

It has 4.8 stars out of five.

大家都爱不释手。

People are loving it.

Coyotegame.com会带你找到所有零售商，但你随处都能买到。

Coyotegame.com will take you to all the retailers, but you can find it everywhere.

这是一款需要快速思考、更快笑出声的游戏。

It is a game of thinking fast and laughing faster.

就像你画我猜遇上烫手山芋，再加一堆脑力乐趣。

Think charades meets hot potato meets a bunch of brain fun.

对大脑很有益处。

It's good for your head.

非常适合有10岁孩子的家庭，或是童心未泯、不愿太较真的成年人。

It's perfect for families with kids aged 10 or adults who are kids at heart or don't take themselves too seriously.

很多成年人都爱玩这款游戏。

A lot of adults love this game.

就像我刚才说的，到处都能买到。

And as I said, it's available everywhere.

亚马逊、沃尔玛、塔吉特，8000多家零售店，应有尽有。

Amazon, Walmart, Target, 8,000 plus retail locations, you name it.

所以请去看看吧。

So please check it out.

我真的很喜欢制作它。

I loved making it.

人们非常喜欢它。

People are really enjoying it.

游戏视频在网上的社交浏览量已超过3亿或4亿次。

It has 300 or 400,000,000 plus social views of gameplay online.

试试看吧。

And try it.

在这个假期好好享受它。

Enjoy it this holiday season.

去看看它吧。

Check it out.

再重复一次：Coyotegame.com

Coyotegame.com one more time.

网址是coyotegame.com，或者在任何你购买游戏的地方。

That's coyotegame.com or anywhere you buy your games.

现在回到节目正题。

Now back to the episode.

我听过你说自己是个乐观主义者，因为你是一位母亲，而极端的乐观主义和悲观主义都会以无益的方式使我们产生偏见或制造盲点。

I've heard you say that you're an optimist because you're a mother, and both optimism and pessimism to an extreme can bias us in ways that are unhelpful or create blind spots.

我很好奇，如果你尝试戴上最客观的帽子（这对任何人来说都很困难），你认为对于那些并非AI公司CEO、建设者和工程师的普通人来说，他们是过于担忧、不够担忧，还是在担忧错误的事情？

And I'm curious if you try to put your most objective hat on, which is difficult for any human, but if you try to do that, do you think people are too worried, not worried enough, or worrying about the wrong things for people who are not the CEOs and builders and engineers behind AI?

当然，你是对的。

Because you're right, of course.

我是说，所有人都会认同这一点：很多人都非常担忧。

I mean, everybody will agree with this that a lot of people are very worried.

我只是怀疑这种担忧是否放错了地方，因为如果你和一些最大的投资机构VC交流，他们当然持有那种在我看来超越所有可能性的技术乐观主义观点，认为AI能解决一切问题。

And I'm just wondering if it's ill placed because I don't really if you talk to some of the VCs who are the biggest investors, of course, they have this sort of, in my view, sort of beyond all possibilities techno optimist view of the future where AI solves everything.

很难相信天上会掉馅饼。

And it's hard to believe there's a free lunch there.

然后还有末日论者，那些悲观绝望的人认为明年就会出现天网，我们都会成为机器人的奴隶或被消灭变成回形针。

And then you have the doomers, the doom and gloom where suddenly it's Skynet next year and we're all slaves to robots or eliminated turned into paper clips.

而现实可能介于这两种极端之间。

And reality is probably in between those two.

那么你认为人们是在担心正确的事情，还是在某种程度上已经迷失了方向？

So do you think people are worrying about the right things, or are they have they lost the plot in some way?

首先，我称自己为务实的乐观主义者。

First of all, I call myself a pragmatic optimist.

我不是乌托邦主义者，所以其实是比较无趣的那种。

I'm not a utopian, so I'm actually the boring kind.

我两种极端都不相信。

I don't believe in extreme on both sides.

我经常环游世界。

I travel around the world.

就在上个月，我去了中东、欧洲、英国、加拿大，然后回到美国的家。

Just last month I was in Middle East, I was in Europe, I was in UK, I was in Canada, I came back home in America.

我认为美国和西欧的人们比中东、亚洲等地的人们更担忧人工智能。

I think people in America and people in Western Europe are more worried about AI than say people in Middle East, in Asia.

我们不必深究他们为何更担忧，就聚焦美国本土来讨论吧。

We don't have to litigate on why they're more worried, but just to come closer to home, just talk about US.

真希望能用扩音器告诉美国民众：你们素以最具创新精神著称。

I wish I had a megaphone to tell people in The US that you're known to be one of the most innovative people.

我们国家为人类文明创造了如此多的伟大发明。

Our country has innovated so many great things for humanity, for civilization.

我们拥有一个自由而充满活力的社会。

We have a society that is free and vibrant.

我们的政治体系仍能让我们对国家的建设方向拥有充分话语权。

And we have a political system that we still have so much say in how we want to build our country.

我确实希望我们国家能对人工智能的未来应用展现出比现在更多的乐观与积极态度。

I do wish that our country has more an optimism and positivity towards the future of using AI than what is being heard now.

像我这样生活在硅谷的技术从业者，在正确的公众传播方面肩负着重大责任。

I think people like me, technologists living in Silicon Valley, a lot of responsibility in the right kind of public communication.

有很多事情没有被有效地传达。

So there's a lot of things that was not communicated in an effective way.

但我确实希望我们能够给国内的每个人灌输更多希望感和自主权，因为我认为正确使用人工智能有太多好处。

But I do hope that we can instill more sense of hope and self agency into everybody in our country, because I think there is so much upside of using AI in the right way.

我不只希望硅谷或曼哈顿的人们，更希望农村社区、传统行业、全美50个州的人们都能拥抱并受益于人工智能。

And I want not just people in Silicon Valley or in Manhattan, but I want people in rural communities, in traditional industries, in everywhere, 50 states, to be able to embrace and benefit from AI.

你为什么要做你现在做的事情？

Why are you building what you're building?

WorldLabs是什么？

What is WorldLabs?

为什么决定做这个？

Why decide to do this?

其实我经常向团队每个成员回答这个问题。

I actually answer this question very often to every member of my team.

我创建了WorldLabs。

I build WorldLabs.

从技术角度来看，这个答案有两个层面。

There are two levels of this answer from a technology point of view.

WorldLabs正在构建专注于空间智能的下一代人工智能，因为空间智能与语言智能一样，是解锁机器惊人能力的基础，从而帮助人类创造得更好、制造得更好、设计得更好、建造出更优秀的机器人。

WorldLabs is building the next generation AI focusing on spatial intelligence, Because spatial intelligence, just like language intelligence, is fundamental in unlocking incredible capabilities in machines so that it can help humans to create better, to manufacture better, to design better, to build better robots.

因此空间智能是一项关键技术。

So spatial intelligence is a linchpin technology.

但更深层次地说，我之所以仍是一名技术专家，是因为我相信人类是唯一能构建文明的物种。

But one level up, why am I still a technologist, It's because I believe humanity is the only species that builds civilizations.

动物会建立群落或兽群，但我们会建立文明。

Animals build colonies or herds, but we build civilizations.

我们构建文明是因为我们渴望不断进步。

We build civilizations because we want to be better and better.

尽管过程中我们做过许多错事，但我们始终向往行善。

We want to do good, even though along the way we do a lot of bad things.

正是对更美好生活、更优质社区、更完善社会、更健康长寿、更繁荣昌盛的渴望，构成了文明建立的基础。

But there is a desire of having better lives, having better community, having better society, live more healthily, have more prosperity, that desire is where civilization is built upon.

正因为我坚信人类能够做到这一点，我认为科学技术是最强大的工具之一，是构建文明最有力的工具之一。

And because I believe that humanity can do that, I believe science and technology is the most powerful tool, one of the most powerful tools in building civilizations.

而我想为此做出贡献。

And I want to contribute to that.

这就是为什么我依然是一名科学家和技术专家，并为此创建了世界实验室。

That's why I'm still a scientist and a technologist, and I'm building world labs for that.

能否向人们解释一下什么是空间智能？以及你们正在打造的产品，就目前而言是怎样的？

Can you explain to people what spatial intelligence is and what the product is, so to speak, at least as it stands right now that you're building?

空间智能是人类超越语言的一种能力——当你把三明治装进袋子、在山间跑步或徒步、粉刷卧室时，所有涉及视觉并将场景转化为对三维世界的理解、对环境认知的过程，进而与之互动、改造、享受并创造新事物。

Spatial intelligence is a capability that humans have which goes beyond language, is when you pack a sandwich in a bag, when you take a run or a hike in a mountain, when you paint your bedroom, everything that has to do with seeing and turning that scene into understanding of the three d world, understanding of the environment, and then in turn you can interact with it, you can change it, you can enjoy it, you can make things out of it.

这种从观察到行动的完整闭环，正是由空间智能的能力支撑的，对吧？

That whole loop between seeing and doing is supported by the capability of spatial intelligence, right?

你能打包三明治意味着你了解面包的形状、知道如何用刀切开、懂得把生菜叶放在面包上、明白怎么把三明治装进密封袋。

The fact that you can pack a sandwich means you know what the bread looks like, you know how to put the knife in between, you know how to put the lettuce leaf on the bread, you know how to like put the sandwich into a ziplock bag.

这每一个环节都体现着空间智能。

Every part of this is spatial intelligence.

那么当今的AI具备这种能力吗？

And does today's AI have that?

虽然正在进步，但与语言智能相比，AI在视觉感知、逻辑推理以及虚拟与现实三维世界中的行动能力方面仍处于非常初级的阶段。

It's getting better but compared to language intelligence AI is still very early in that ability to see, to reason, and also to do in world, in both virtual three d world as well as real three d world.

这正是世界实验室正在攻克的方向。

So that's what World Labs is doing.

我们正在开发一种前沿模型，使其具备创造世界、对世界进行逻辑推理的智能能力，并赋能创作者、设计师或机器人与世界互动——这就是空间智能。

We are creating a frontier model that can have intelligent capability in the model to create world, to reason around the world, and to enable, for example, creators or designers or robots to interact with the world, that's spatial intelligence.

能否详细说明设计师、创作者或机器人与世界互动的具体场景？

Could you expand on the, you know, designers or creatives or robots interacting with the world?

这是否意味着你们可以...（我的团队已经在试用部分工具了，非常感谢）

So does that mean that you could, and my team has been playing with some of the tools, so thank you for that.

这具体意味着什么？

What does that mean?

对吧？

Right?

假设从现在起一年或两年后，你能描绘一幅场景吗？人们或机器人可能会如何使用这项技术？

If you could paint a picture for, let's say, a year from now, two years from now, how might someone use this or how might a robot use this?

几周前我刚和某人聊过，很受启发——高中剧院的预算通常非常有限，对吧？

I was just talking to someone a couple of weeks ago and it was really inspiring, is that high school theatres are very low budget, right?

比如，我有时会去旧金山歌剧院或音乐剧，那些为剧院搭建的布景简直美轮美奂。

Like, okay, sometimes I go to San Francisco opera or musicals and the sets that's built for theatre are just so beautiful.

但要让中学或高中拥有这样的预算来制作布景非常困难。

It's very hard for high school or middle school have that budget to do that.

想象一下，你可以用我们现在的世界实验室模型（我们称之为'marble'），在虚拟世界里搭建一个中世纪法国小镇的布景。

Imagine that you can take today's world lab model, we call it marble, and then you create a set in, I don't know, in medieval French town.

然后将其作为背景，利用数字形式帮助演员和表演融入那个世界。

And then you put that in the background and use that digital form to help transport the actors and action into that world.

当然，根据辅助技术的不同，无论是通过电脑还是未来人们使用头显设备，你都能获得身临其境置身中世纪法国小镇的体验。

And of course depending on the auxiliary technology, whether you're on a computer or eventually people can use a headset or whatever, you can have that immersive feeling of being in a medieval French town.

这对许多创作者来说都将是个令人惊叹的创意工具。

That would be an amazing creative tool for a lot of creators.

这是几周前我和某人讨论的一个例子，但我们已经看到世界各地的创作者。

That was an example someone and I was talking about it a couple of weeks ago, but we already see creators all over the world.

其中有些是视觉特效创作者，有些是室内设计创作者，有些是游戏创作者，还有些是想构建虚拟世界让学生获得不同体验的教育工作者——他们已经开始使用我们的模型，因为他们发现能轻松创建可用于沉浸式体验的3D世界非常强大。

Some of them are VFX creators, some of them are interior design creators, some of them are gaming creators, some of them are educators who want build some worlds that transport their students into different experiences, are already starting to use our model because they find it very powerful at their fingertip to be able to create three d worlds that they can use to immerse either their characters or themselves into.

就流程而言，如果有人好奇如何使用，假设是一位公立学校老师，希望激励学生并付出额外努力。

And just to process wise, if someone's wondering how this works, let's just say it's a public school teacher, let's just say, who's hoping to inspire and teach their students going the extra mile.

对使用者来说具体是什么体验？

What does it look like for someone to use this?

他们是输入文字描述想创造的世界，还是上传素材或照片——就像图片板那样？

Are they typing in text, describing the world they'd like to create, uploading assets or photos almost like an image board?

如果使用者不懂技术怎么办？

How does it work if someone's non technical?

是的，他们完全不需要懂技术。

Yes, so they don't need to be technical at all.

他们可以在电脑或手机上打开我们的页面，不过电脑版更有趣，因为功能更丰富。

They open our page on desktop or in their phone, but desktop is more fun because it has more features.

然后他们可以输入，比如‘法国中世纪小镇’，或者他们实际上可以去任何地方。

And then they can type, you know, a French medieval town or they can actually go to anywhere.

他们可以使用Midjourney或Nano Banana生成一张法国中世纪小镇的照片，或者直接获取一张相关实景照片。

They can use Midjourney or Nano Banana to create a photo of a French medieval town or they can get an actual photo about that.

上传后我们称之为提示词，几分钟后我们的模型就会生成一个3D世界，比如小镇的某个部分。

And then they upload it, we call it prompt, and then after a few minutes our model gives you a three d world that is, say, a part of the town.

它的范围确实存在一定限制。

It does have a limit in its range.

这个3D世界之所以是3D的，是因为你可以用鼠标拖动视角、转身走动，全方位观察这个世界。

And then that three d world is generally three d because you can just use the mouse to drag and turn around and walk around and see that world.

后续使用时，你有多种应用方式。

And then downstream, if you want to use it, you have many ways to use it.

你甚至可以用我们网站上的工具添加摄像机位，将其制作成一部电影。

You can actually create a movie out of it by using one of our tools on the website to just put cameras and you can make a particular movie out of it.

如果你是游戏开发者

If you're a game developer

我正想说这听起来很像游戏引擎。

I was just going to say it sounds a lot like a gaming engine.

是的，你可以在里面放入很多角色。

Yes, you can put a lot of characters in it.

如果你是视觉特效专业人士（我们有很多这样的用户），他们可以直接把这个应用到电影拍摄的工作流程中，让真实演员在场景中表演。

If you're a VFX professional, we have a lot of VFX professionals, they can actually take this and put it in the workflow of their movie shooting and have real actors shooting movies.

我们还有心理学研究人员在特定精神病学研究中使用这种沉浸式世界。

We also have psychology researchers using that immersive world in particular psychiatric studies.

我们还可以将其用于机器人训练的模拟，因为许多机器人训练需要大量数据，然后利用它来生成各种不同的数据。

We could also use that as the simulation for robotic training, because a lot of robotic training needs a lot of data, and then use that for generating a lot of different data.

那么这就像是机器人进入现实世界之前的飞行模拟器吗？

So is it almost like a flight simulator for robots before they go into the real world?

这是目标的一部分。

That's part of the goal.

我们仍处于早期阶段，所以这个飞行模拟器尚未完善。

We are still early, so the flight simulator is not complete yet.

对。

Right.

但这就是探索过程的一部分。

But that's part of the journey.

你提到了精神病学研究，我想你刚才说的就是这个。

You mentioned psychiatric studies, I think that's what you just mentioned.

具体会是什么样的研究呢？

What might that look like?

是的，实际上有位研究人员联系我们，他们正在研究强迫症等心理障碍患者——这些患者会被特定环境触发症状，他们想研究这些触发因素以及治疗方法。

Yes, so we actually got this researcher who called us and they're studying people who have psychological disorders like obsessive compulsive disorder, where they're triggered by certain environments and they want to study the trigger and also just study how the treatment.

但你要如何触发一个对草莓田有特定问题的人呢？

But how do you trigger someone who, let's say, is particularly have issue with let's say a strawberry field?

我只是随便举个例子。

I'm just making it up.

我的意思是，你可以带他们去草莓田，但如果你想知道是夏季的草莓田、夜晚的草莓田，还是草莓交配季节的田呢？

I mean you can take them to a strawberry field but what about you want to know if it's strawberry field in the summer, or strawberry field at night, or it's or it's mating strawberry.

这具体要怎么做呢？

Like how do you do this?

研究人员突然意识到，我们为他们提供了最经济的方式来调整各种变量维度，他们可以据此进行测试并开展研究。

Suddenly the researcher realized we give them the cheapest possible way of varying all kinds of dimensions and they can test this out and do their studies.

这真的很有意思。

That's really interesting.

是的，我能想象它被应用于——可能是所谓的暴露疗法——听你这么描述，我能看出它几乎可以被整合进所有领域，对吧？

Yeah I could see it being applied to, it might be called exposure therapy, in terms of now that you're describing it I could see how it could be added into, I mean, pretty much everything, right?

我是说，如果你思考人类在现实世界中的行为方式。

I mean, if you think about how humans operate in the real world.

没错。

Yes.

现实世界与数字世界的界限正变得越来越模糊，因为我们同时生活在多个屏幕中，既在现实世界生活，也在虚拟世界活动，未来还会创造能同时在虚实两界运作的机器，我们在数字与物理空间的交互会越来越多。

The boundary between real world and digital world is less and less, thinner and thinner because we live in many screens, we live in the real world, we do things in virtual world, we do things in real world, we'll create machines that can do things in real world and virtual world, so there's a lot we do in digital and physical spaces.

有哪些不太知名、尚未被大众熟知的科学家或研究者是你比较关注的？

Who are some scientists or researchers who you pay attention to, who are not necessarily kind of the big brand names and marquee lights that are already very public in the world?

有没有哪些特别杰出的人让你印象深刻，让你觉得他们确实在做着非凡的工作？

Is there anybody who stands out where you're like, you know, there's some really tremendous people doing good work?

嗯，这正是我写这本书的原因之一，特别是在中间章节，我描述了将认知科学与计算机科学相结合的图像处理之旅。

Well, that's part of the reason I wrote the book, especially in the middle chapters where I wrote about the journey of doing image that combines cognitive science with computer science.

实际上我谈到了心理学家、神经科学家和发展心理学家。

And I actually talk about psychologists and neuroscientists and developmental psychologists.

你知道，他们中有些人还在世，有些人已经离世了。

You know, some of them are still with us, some of them are not.

比如已故的安·特雷斯曼（Ann Treisman），还有欧文·比德曼（Irv Biederman），他们都在过去几年去世了，但他们是认知科学领域的巨人，其工作影响了计算机科学并最终影响了人工智能。

For example, the late Ann Treisman, Irv Biederman, they all passed away in the last few years, but they were giants in cognitive science whose work has informed computer science and eventually AI.

你知道，世界各地仍有许多科学家，其中很多在美国，他们是发展心理学领域的思考者。

You know, there are still lots of scientists around the world, many of them are in The US, who are thinkers in developmental psychology.

在人工智能领域，我关注他们的工作。

In AI, I follow their work.

我认为科学界有很多杰出人物，比如哈佛大学的莉兹·贝尔克（Liz Belke），伯克利的艾莉森·高普尼克（Alison Gopnik），我尤其喜欢前MIT机器人专家罗德尼·布鲁克斯（Rodney Brooks）。

I think that the world of science, just to name some names, right, Liz Belke in Harvard, Allison Gopnik in Berkeley, I love Rodney Brook who was a former MIT professor in robotics, there's just a lot of them.

我不是特意要单独指出他们，但你让我列举那些不在AI新闻中出现的人物。

I don't mean to just single them out, but you're asking me for names that are not in the news of AI.

是的，

Yeah,

这太棒了，谢谢。

that's perfect, thank you.

我也想听听你对近期发展中看似不可避免的趋势的看法——虽然'不可避免'是个很强烈的词。

I would also love to get your perspective on what might be this is a very strong word, but seemingly inevitable in in terms of developments in the near intermediate future.

我给你举个例子说明我的意思。

And I'll give you an example of what I mean.

2008、2009年时，我参与了Shopify这家公司，那时他们只有大约10名员工。

In 2008, 2009, I became involved with Shopify, the company back when they had, like, 10 employees.

当时有几件事情正在发生。

And there were a few things happening around that time.

你可以提出关于未来十年或二十年发展的问题。

And you could ask questions, you know, in the next ten years or twenty years.

宽带接入会增多还是减少？

Will there be more broadband access or less?

会更多。

More.

好的。

Okay.

电子商务会增多还是减少？

Will there be more ecommerce or less?

会更多。

There'll be more.

好的。

Okay.

当你在足够长的时间跨度内对四五个这类问题都得到绝对肯定的答案时，就能大致描绘出未来的发展方向。

And when you have four or five of those that seem over a long enough time horizon, absolute yeses, it begins to paint a picture of where things are going.

你认为未来几年内有哪些被低估、却近乎必然的趋势？

Are there any things that in the next handful of years you think are perhaps underappreciated as near inevitabilities?

你是想让我谈谈被低估的领域吗？

You want me to talk about underappreciated?

我的意思是，我不确定它们是否被高估，但肯定是被认可的——对能源的需求是被认可的，AI发展趋势是增多而非减少是被认可的，机器人技术长期趋势是被认可的，这些都是被认可的。

I mean, I don't know if they're overappreciated, but they're definitely appreciated, the need for power is appreciated, trend of more AI not less AI is appreciated, the long term trend of robots coming is appreciated, So these are appreciated.

真正被低估的是空间智能——当所有人还在讨论大语言模型时，对像素级三维世界的建模能力其实被低估了。正如你所说，这种能力支撑着从叙事创作到娱乐体验，再到机器人仿真的众多领域。

What's underappreciated is spatial intelligence is underappreciated in the sense that everybody is still now talking about large language models, but really world modeling of pixels, of three d worlds is underappreciated because like you were saying, it powers so many things from storytelling to entertainment to experiences to robotic simulation.

我认为AI在教育领域的价值被低估了。我们将看到AI能加速主动学习者的进步，这将对学校体系产生深远影响，并改变人力资本格局——比如我们如何评估合格劳动者。

I think AI in education is underappreciated because what we are going to see is that AI can accelerate the learning for those who want to learn, which will have downstream implications in our school system, as well as in just human capital landscape, like how do we assess qualified workers.

要知道，过去人们看重毕业院校和学位，这种情况将会改变。

You know, it used to be which school you graduate from, with which degree, that will be changing.

当AI触手可及地服务于大众时，这种便利性是被低估的。

With AI being at the fingertips of so many people, that's underappreciated.

我认为AI对经济结构（包括劳动力市场）的影响被低估了。

I think AI's impact in our economic structure, including labor market, is underappreciated.

其中的微妙之处被低估了。

The nuance is underappreciated.

我认为那些要么完全乌托邦式的后稀缺时代言论，要么说所有人的工作都将消失的说法都过于夸张。

I think this whole rhetoric of either total utopia post scarcity is hyperbolic or like everybody's job will be gone is hyperbolic.

但真正被低估的是这个混乱的中间过程——从知识工作者到蓝领再到服务业，所有这些正在发生的变化，我们的政策制定者、学者乃至整个社会都认识不足。

But the messy middle is how from knowledge worker to blue collar to hospitality to all these changes that's happening is underappreciated by our policy workers, by our scholars, by just overall society.

那么从就业角度来看，有哪些细微差别呢？

Well, what are some of the nuances from the job perspective?

这可能与我之前承诺要问你的问题相关，就是你会告诉或将要告诉家里不同年龄段的孩子推荐什么？

Maybe this ties into what I promised earlier I was gonna ask you, which is what you are telling or will tell at home other ages your children are recommending?

假设我们不知道他们具体年龄，但为了讨论方便，假定他们正处于需要决定学习方向、专注领域的年龄段。

Let's just say, don't know how old they are, but if we assume that they just for the sake of discussion of the age where they're trying to decide what they should study, where they should focus, things of that nature.

你会如何考虑回答这个问题，哪怕是暂时性的建议？

How would you think about answering that, even provisionally?

我认为学习能力变得更重要了，因为当学习工具较少时，按部就班跟随既定路径更容易。

I think the ability to learn is even more important because when there were fewer tools to learn, it's easier to just follow tracks.

你读完小学、初中、高中、大学，然后接受一些职业培训，这曾经是条常规路径。

You go through elementary school, middle school, high school, college, and then get some training vocationally, and that's kind of a path.

随之而来的是一整套结构化的学历证书体系。

And with that is a set of structured credentials from degrees and all that.

但人工智能真正改变了这一点。

But AI has really changed it.

比如在我的初创公司，当我们面试软件工程师时，老实说，我个人觉得他们拥有的学位现在对我们来说没那么重要了。

For example, my startup, when we interview a software engineer, honestly, how much I personally feel the degree they have matters less to us now.

更重要的是你学到了什么、使用什么工具、以及你如何快速掌握这些工具来增强自己？

It's more about what have you learned, what tools do you use, how quickly can you superpower yourself in using these tools?

其中很多都是人工智能工具。

And a lot of these are AI tools.

你使用这些工具的心态对我来说更为重要。

What's your mindset towards using these tools matter more to me?

就2025年World Labs的招聘而言，我不会聘用任何不接受AI协作软件工具的软件工程师。

At this point in 2025 hiring at World Labs, I would not hire any software engineer who does not embrace AI collaborative software tools.

这并不是因为我认为AI软件工具是完美的。

It's not because I believe AI software tools are perfect.

因为我认为这首先体现了一个人能否跟上快速发展的工具包的成长能力、开放心态，而且最终结果是——如果你能使用这些工具，你就能学习，就能更好地赋能自己。

It's because I believe that shows, first of all, the ability of the person to grow with the fast growing toolkits, the open mindedness, and also the end result is if you're able to use these tools, you're able to learn, you can superpower yourself better.

所以这种转变是必然的。

So that is definitely shifting.

回到你的问题，应该告诉年轻人和孩子们什么？我认为学会学习的能力、学习能力本身的永恒价值，现在变得更为重要。

So coming back to your question, what do you tell young people, tell children, I think the timeless value of learning to learn, the ability to learn, is even more important now.

是啊，我们聊到这里我突然意识到，对于有抱负的人来说，要成为超级自学者只会变得越来越容易。

Yeah, it strikes me as we're talking that it's only going to get increasingly easier for the ambitious to act as superpowered autodidacts.

我们已经看到这一点，YouTube现在就有很好的记录。

We've already seen this with certainly YouTube has a nice track record now.

你可以娱乐至死，逃避那些有助于自我成长和发展的事情，也可以借此加速成长。

You can either entertain yourself to death and avoid doing things that help with self growth and development, or you can supercharge it.

AI也是如此，对吧？我们甚至不需要展望未来，但问题是教师如何审核学生是否完成了他们应该做的工作。

And similarly with AI, right, you flash forward, we don't even need to flash forward, but it's how does a teacher audit that their students are doing the work they're supposed to be doing.

在太多层面上，事情已经发展到这个程度了。

On so many levels, it's getting to the point.

虽然存在一些例外情况，但几乎不可能实现。

There are some exceptions, but of near impossibility.

学生要么逃避所有作业，要么可以大幅提升自己的作业质量，但至少在短期内，产出看起来可能非常相似。

And students can either avoid all work or they can supercharge their own work, but the output might look very similar, at least for a period of time.

所以学校教育将会发生巨大变化。

So schooling is gonna change a lot.

这非常有趣。

It's very, interesting.

蒂姆，我其实认为，如果学校评估的结构设计成AI给出的结果和学生给出的结果完全一样，那么这个评估体系本身就存在问题。

I actually think, Tim, if the school evaluation is structured in a way that whatever AI gives and whatever the student gives is the same, there's something wrong with the structure of the evaluation.

好的。

Okay.

能详细说说吗？

Can you say more about that?

这很有意思。

That's interesting.

比如说英语论文。

So for example, English essay.

这不是我的亲身经历，而是我听来的一个我非常认同的故事，我要复述一下：一位高中新生英语课老师告诉我关于他们孩子学校的故事。

This is not me, this is me hearing a story that I so agree with, I'll retell the story, is that as a high school freshman English class teacher, someone told me the story of their kid's school.

开学第一天，老师竟然对全班说：我要向你们展示我会如何给AI打分。

On the first day of school, the teacher actually said to the class, I want to show you how I would score AI.

于是老师布置了一篇论文题目，向学生展示了最佳AI生成的范文，并解释哪些地方好、哪些不好、哪些不够理想，最后给了B-的评分。

So the teacher gave an essay topic, showed the students this is what the best AI gave me, and I'm going to show you how I think this is good, this is bad, how this is suboptimal, and I'll give it a B minus.

现在我要告诉你这是我的标准。

Now I will tell you this is my bar.

如果你懒到让AI代写论文，那你只能得到这样的结果。

If you're so lazy that you ask AI to write your essay, this is what you're going to get.

你可以使用AI，这完全没问题。

You can use AI, that's totally fine.

但如果你能亲自完成作业、学习、思考，成为最优秀的人类创作者，并在此基础上更进一步，你就能达到A，甚至A+的水平。

But if you can do the work, learn, think, be the best human creator you can, and work on top of that, you can get to A, you can get to A pluses.

在我看来，这才是构建评估体系的正确方式。

And that would be, in my opinion, the right way to structure the evaluation.

重点不是让人工智能与人类对立，然后试图监管AI的使用与否，而是要展示工具的基准线在哪里，以及人类学习者应该达到的标准在哪里。

It's not to pit humans against the AI and then try to police the use or not use of AI is that to show where the tools, the bar of the tools are, and where the bar of the human learner should be.

我要好好思考这个例子，并尝试想出更多类似的案例。

I'm gonna sit with that example and try to think of more examples.

这非常有意思。

It's very interesting.

天啊，这些模型的进步速度真的让我震惊。

And boy, oh, boy, I've been shocked by how quickly the models improve.

不过，是的，作为一个思想实验，我会好好琢磨这个观点。

But, yes, that's like, as a thought experiment, I'm gonna chew on that.

我知道我们只剩下几分钟了。

I know we only have a few minutes left.

李飞飞，我想问你一个经常问的问题：如果你能在广告牌上放一句话或一条信息，让数百万、数十亿人看到，你会选择什么？

Fei Fei, I wanted to ask you a question I ask a lot, which is if you could put a quote or a message, something on a billboard, something to get in front of millions, billions of people.

就假设他们都能理解。

Just assume they all understand it.

可以是一张图片、一个问题、一句引文，任何东西都可以。

Could be an image, could be a question, could be a quote, anything at all.

一句谚语、箴言，什么都行，几乎可以是任何内容。

A saying, mantra, doesn't matter, could be almost anything.

你会或可能会在那块广告牌上放什么？

What would you or what might you put on that billboard?

你的北极星是什么？

What is your north star?

你的北极星是什么？

What is your north star?

这当然至关重要。

This is, of course, critically important.

回到你如何定义或为自己找到它，我是说，我们正在讨论大胆的问题，然后由此引出一个北极星假设。

And coming back to how you define that or find that for yourself, I mean, were talking about audacious questions and then that leading to a North Star hypothesis.

除此之外，你还会用什么其他方式鼓励人们寻找他们的北极星？

Is there another way that you would encourage people on top of that to think about finding their North Star?

我认为这正是让我们如此人性化、如此充满生命力的原因——作为一个物种，我们能够超越对基本需求的追逐，对吧？

I believe that's how that makes us so human and makes us to be so fully alive, is that we as a species can live beyond the chasing of just basic needs, right?

而是追求梦想、使命、目标和激情。

But dreams, missions, and goals, and passion.

每个人的北极星都不同。

And everybody's North Star is different.

这很正常。

And that's fine.

并非所有人都把AI当作他们的北极星。

Not everybody has AI as their North Star.

但寻找北极星又回到了教育的核心，我指的不是正规的课堂教育，而是整个教育历程。

But finding that goes to the heart of education again, and I don't mean formal classroom education, it's just the journey of education.

很大程度上，这关乎认识自我的能力，学会如何确立你的北极星，并懂得如何追寻它。

A lot of that is the ability to learn who you are and to learn how to formulate your North Star and how to chase after that.

最后一个问题。

Last question.

你父母有没有解释过为什么给你取名飞飞？

Did your parents ever explain to you why they named you Fei Fei?

是的，因为我妈妈分娩时，我爸像往常一样迟到了医院，路上他抓到了一只鸟。

Yes, it's because when my mom was going through labor, my dad was characteristically late to the hospital and along the way he caught a bird.

他后来放了它，但他确实抓到过一只鸟。

He let it go but he did catch a bird.

我也不知道，他就是分心了。

I don't know, he was just distracted.

那是在北京城里，我爸骑车去医院看我妈妈，这件事启发他给我取名飞飞。

It was in Beijing, in the city of Beijing, my dad was bicycling to my mom's hospital and that inspired him to call me Fei Fei.

飞飞。

Fei Fei.

飞飞，哦等等，抱歉。

Fei Fei, oh wait, sorry.

对于不说中文的人，我忘了你是会说中文的。

For those who don't speak Chinese, I forgot you do speak Chinese.

但对于不说中文的人，'飞'意味着飞翔。

But for those who don't speak Chinese, fei means flying.

所以，是的。

So, yeah.

所以是被一只鸟启发的。

So be inspired by a bird.

你知道吗，我简单说一下，因为这有点好笑。

You know, really quick, I'll just say it because it's kinda funny.

我的第一个中文名字是费挺诚，因为我当时非常直率诚实，所以叫挺诚。

My first Chinese name that I had was Fei Ting Chung, which is because I was very blunt and honest, so Tingcheng.

但费飞挺诚。

But Fei Fei Tingcheng.

但我刚开始时，我的中文声调不标准，人们以为我说自己叫'飞机场'。

But when I was first starting, my tones in China were not polished, and people thought I was saying that my name was Fei Jicheng, which is airport.

所以我改了个名字，我向老师们申请后，我们换了个不那么容易混淆的名字。

So I changed to a we've I petitioned my teachers and we changed my name to something less less confusing.

你的新名字是什么？

What's your new name?

哦，好的。

Oh, okay.

就像是...但底部没有那个部分。

It's like it's like but it's without the at the bottom.

对。

Yeah.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

恩西这个名字。

Ensie name.

这比我的名字高级多了。

That's way more sophisticated than mine.

嗯，我能和我的中文老师一起设计这个，所以我有个不公平的优势。

Well, I get to script it with my Chinese teachers, so I have an unfair advantage.

李博士，非常感谢您抽出时间。

Doctor Lee, thank you so much for the time.

我们会在tim.blog/podcast上为大家提供节目笔记的链接。

We will link to the show notes for everybody at tim.blog/podcast.

他们能轻松找到你，大家也应该去看看worldlabs.ai，我们会把所有其他链接、你的社交媒体等都放在节目链接里。

They'll be able to find you easily, and everybody should check out worldlabs.ai, and we'll put every other link, your social, and so on in the show links.

但还是感谢您的时间。

But thank you for the time.

我真的很感激。

I really appreciate it.

我很享受我们的对话。

I enjoyed our conversation.

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

我也是。

Likewise.

再见。

Bye.

嘿，各位。

Hey, guys.

我是Tim，又见面了。

This is Tim again.

在结束前还有一件事要提，那就是「周五五件事」。

Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Friday.

你愿意每周五收到我发来的一封简短邮件，为周末增添一点乐趣吗？

Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend?

目前有150万到200万人订阅了我的免费简报——我那份超级简短的简报叫做「周五五件事」。

Between one and a half and 2,000,000 people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bold Friday.

注册简单，取消也方便。

Easy to sign up, easy to cancel.

基本上就是每周五我发送的半页内容，分享那一周我发现、探索或开始研究的最酷的东西。

It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week.

有点像我的酷物日记。

Kinda like my diary of cool things.

通常包括我正在阅读的文章、书籍，也许还有专辑、小工具、各种科技技巧等等。

It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on.

这些都是朋友们发给我的，其中很多是播客嘉宾。

They get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests.

这些稀奇古怪的东西最终会出现在我的视野里，我测试后就会与你们分享。

And these strange esoteric things end up in my field, and then I test them, and then I share them with you.

如果这听起来有趣的话，再次强调，内容非常简短。

So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short.

在你开启周末前的一点小小美好。

A little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend.

值得思考的事情。

Something to think about.

如果你想试试，只需访问 tim.blog/friday。

If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog/friday.

在浏览器中输入 tim.blog/friday。

Type that into your browser, tim.blog/friday.

留下你的邮箱，就能收到下一期内容。

Drop in your email and you'll get the very next one.

感谢收听。

Thanks for listening.

如许多听众所知，过去几年我一直使用本期赞助商Helix Sleep的Midnight Luxe床垫。

As many of you know, for the last few years, I've been sleeping on a midnight luxe mattress from today's sponsor Helix Sleep.

我在楼下客房也放了一张，朋友们的反馈一直很棒。

I also have one in the guest bedroom downstairs and feedback from friends has always been fantastic.

他们总会主动提起这件事，完全不需要我提示。

It's something they comment on without any prompting from me whatsoever.

我最近也有机会试用了Helix Sunset Elite床垫。

I also recently had a chance to test the Helix Sunset Elite.

Sunset Elite床垫在提供卓越舒适感的同时，能在关键部位给予恰到好处的支撑。

The Sunset Elite delivers exceptional comfort while putting the right support in the right spots.

它采用五层定制泡沫结构，包括带有全周分区腰部支撑的底层——正好支撑在我需要的部位。

It is made with five tailored foam layers including a base layer with full perimeter zoned lumbar support right where I need it.

中间层采用优质泡沫和微型线圈，能带来柔软的贴合感。

Middle layers with premium foam and micro coils that create a soft contouring feel.

Helix提供100晚睡眠试用、快速免费配送和15年质保服务。

Helix offers a one hundred night sleep trial, fast free shipping, and a fifteen year warranty.

快去了解详情吧。

So check it all out.

现在登录官网可享受全站商品8折优惠。

And now you can get 20% off anything on their website, so site wide.

只需访问helixsleep.com/tim即可。

So just go to helixsleep.com/tim.

再说一次，helixsleep.com/tim。

One more time, helixsleep.com/tim.

有了Helix，更好的睡眠从现在开始。

With Helix, better sleep starts now.

几十年来，我一直对微生物组、益生菌以及益生元着迷，但产品从未真正达到宣传的效果。

I have been fascinated by the microbiome and probiotics as well as prebiotics for decades, but products never quite live up to the hype.

现在情况开始改变，包括本集的赞助商——Seeds DSO1 Daily Symbiotic。

Now things are starting to change, and that includes this episode's sponsor, seeds d s o one daily symbiotic.

我一直对大多数益生菌持怀疑态度，但在将两粒Seeds DSO1加入早晨日常后，我注意到消化和整体健康状况都有所改善。

I've always been very skeptical of most probiotics, but after incorporating two capsules of seeds d s o one into my morning routine, I have noticed improved digestion and improved overall health.

那么为什么Seed的DSO1如此有效呢？

So why is Seed's DSO1 so effective?

首先，它是一种二合一的益生菌和益生元配方，含有24种经过临床和科学研究的菌株。

For one, it is a two in one probiotic and prebiotic formulated with 24 clinically and scientifically studied strains.

但如果益生菌菌株没有到达正确的位置，它们就不会那么有效。

But if the probiotic strains don't make it to the right place, they are not as effective.

因此Seed开发了一种专利胶囊和递送系统，能够经受消化过程，将活性益生菌精准释放到结肠。

So Seed developed a proprietary capsule and capsule delivery system that survives digestion and delivers a precision release of the live and viable probiotics to the colon.

现在使用优惠码20tim在seed.com/tim下单，可以享受首月八折优惠，记得输入优惠码20tim。

And now you can get 20% off your first month with code 20 tim at seed.com/tim using code 20 tim all put together.

再重复一遍。

One more time.

访问seed.com/tim，优惠码20。

Seed.com/tim, code 20.

嗨。

Hi.