第853期：荒野独居冠军乔丹·乔纳斯——生存的艺术、游牧部落的智慧、苦难通往内心平静之路、如何应对凶残的狼獾，以及为何不要拍摄攻击中的熊

所以它让情况变得可见，容易理解。

So it makes it visible, easy to grasp.

在他们2025年的调查中，十分之八的用户表示Monarch帮助他们对财务更有掌控感。

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Monarch已帮助用户平均每月节省超过200美元。

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您还可以免费与伴侣或财务顾问共享您的Monarch账户，十分之七的用户表示这改善了他们关系中的财务沟通。

You can also share your Monarch account with a partner or financial adviser at no extra charge, and seven out of 10 members say it's improved financial conversations in their relationship.

这一点对我的员工以及那些在财务上保持一致的伴侣来说也是如此。

This is true for my employees as well as couples being on the same page.

所以，用Monarch为2026年的财务成功做好准备。

So set yourself up for financial success in 2026 with Monarch.

去试试吧。

Check it out.

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Use code Tim at monarch.com for half off of your first year.

在 monarch.com 使用代码 Tim，首年享受五折优惠。

That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code Tim.

所以听起来你跟不少当地人挺熟的。

So it sounds like you got close to quite a few of the locals.

你能描述一下吗？希望这个提示已经足够了。

Can you describe hopefully, this is enough of a cue.

我们之前在山里徒步时你跟我提起过，这次旅行我学了几个俄语单词，我想其中一个可能是 dorak。

You told me about this when we were out in the woods in the mountains, but it involves I picked up a few Russian words on this trip, and I think one of them was dorak.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所以，如果这足以作为热情欢迎的提示……哦，是的。

So if that's enough of a cue in terms of warm welcome Oh, yeah.

你知道，你第一次抵达时是什么情形？

You know, what was your first arrival like?

那大概是2005或2006年，我第一次前往俄罗斯，不知道会面临什么，但我们降落在了莫斯科机场。

This is probably two thousand five or six, but I was heading over to Russia the first time and didn't know what to expect, but we'd land in the Moscow Airport.

然后，来接我们飞机的不是巴士之类的，而是一辆蓝色的农用拖拉机，后面还拖着一个木制拖车。

And instead of having like a bus or something come up to our airplane, it was like a farm tractor, this blue farm tractor and a wooden trailer.

我当时心想，不可能吧。

And I was like, no way.

快下飞机。

Get off the plane.

然后，你知道的，我们就爬进了那辆拖车。

And, you know, we're climbing into this trailer.

所以，我当然就拍了张照片，而那边站着的那位军官，杜洛克，意思就是，白痴。

And so, of course, I took a picture and this officer standing over there, Durock, which means like, idiot.

不。

No.

俄罗斯的第一次问候通过我的手机传过来，让我删掉了它。

The first greeting of Russia came over to my phone, made me delete it.

欢迎来到俄罗斯。

And welcome to Russia.

然后，这倒是很贴切。

And then, so that was fitting.

我想这和你在肯尼迪机场可能受到的待遇差别不大。

I guess it's guess it's not that different from how you would probably get treated at JFK.

就像拍照一样。

It's like taking pictures.

说得通。

Fair enough.

说得通。

Fair enough.

一点文化上的无知。

Little bit of cultural ignorance.

那么让我们回到最初的动因和催化剂吧。

So let's go back then to the impetus, the catalyst.

作为我们即将深入的背景概要，你是在哪里长大的？

Just as a skeletal backstory that we're gonna dive into, but where'd you grow up?

我在爱达荷州长大，在北爱达荷的一个农场。

I grew up in Idaho, on a farm in North Idaho.

嗯。

Mhmm.

大部分时间都在

Most part and

那你小时候是通过家人学俄语，后来在学校继续学，然后去俄罗斯的吗？

Did you grow up learning Russian from family members then studying in school and then going to Russia?

不是。

No.

我从未特别关注过俄罗斯，尽管我对历史非常感兴趣。

I never had any particular never thought particularly a lot about Russia, although I was really into history.

所以我读了很多关于二战的书，俄罗斯的战争回忆录，这些我都读过，而且《古拉格群岛》深深影响了我。

And so I had read about a lot about World War two, Russian war memoirs, you know, all this I had read and really was impacted by the Gulag Archipelago.

所以我对俄罗斯有一定了解，但从未想过把它当作目的地。

So I had a familiarity with Russia, but it was never a destination that I had thought about.

而且，你知道的，我的人生起步很普通。

And, you know, lived a fairly typical beginning to life.

我13岁就找到了工作，一直不停地工作。

Got a job when I was 13, worked, worked, worked.

当我大约18岁的时候，我哥哥邀请我搭货运火车。

And then when I was about 18, my brother invited me to ride freight trains.

这某种程度上让我踏上了旅程。

So that kinda sent

我开始了这段经历。

me on.

所以我们跳过这一点，稍后再回来，嗯。

So we're gonna skip forward from there and come back Mhmm.

来说说为什么，我们开始吧。

To why Let's do it.

流浪汉霍博。

Hobo Jordo.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

到底发生了什么，让你最终登上了飞机？

So what on earth happened that led to actually getting on a plane?

你知道，我是在一个基督教家庭长大的，我亲眼见证了这条道路在我生活中的成果。

You know, I grew up in a Christian household and I had seen the fruit of that path in my life.

我也在周围的人、我的家族历史中看到了这些。

I'd seen it in people around me, my family history.

你知道，我真的很珍惜它，它对我来说意义重大。

You know, I really valued it and it was really meaningful to me.

但当我成长为青少年时，我产生了许多之前从未得到满意解答的问题。

But as I was, you know, a teenager and grown up, had a lot of questions that I hadn't had satisfactorily answered.

因此，尽管我非常重视基督教，认为它非常好，但我发现自己在某种程度上难以与它建立联系。

And so I found myself, although I really valued Christianity and saw it as very good, I found myself in a place where I was struggling to connect with it on any level.

那时，作为一个年轻人，我处于相当黑暗的境地。

And so I was in a fairly dark place as a young man there.

我记得当时我读到过这样一节经文，大意是：凡行义路却仍在黑暗中的人，要继续前行。

And I remember at that time I had read this particular verse and it basically said, He who follows a path of righteousness and is in the darkness continue.

这在我当时引起了共鸣，因为我想，原来有些人努力做正确的事，却依然身处黑暗，这也没关系。

And that struck me at the time because like, okay, there's people that try to do the right thing and are still in darkness and that's so that's okay.

但它并没有解答我很多疑问，而我又不想全盘否定，因为我亲眼见过它的好处。

But it didn't answer a lot of the questions I had and I didn't wanna bulldoze it all because I had seen that it was good.

而且我也知道自己还年轻，那又怎样

And I also knew I was young and What do

你所说的‘彻底抛弃’是什么意思？

you mean by bulldoze it?

我不想把我对基督教的信仰以及它所代表的一切都丢弃掉。

Well, I didn't wanna take my faith in Christianity and everything that it meant and just Discard it.

说这是对的。

Say this is yeah.

我要作为一个18岁的年轻人，把它全扔了，走自己的路。

I'm gonna discard it and go my own way as an 18 year old.

你当时有哪些问题？

What types of questions did you have?

是的。

Yeah.

其实这些问题都相当简单。

They were actually fairly simple.

而且这关系到下一个回答，我主要有两个问题：第一个是，地球显然不可能只有六千年历史。

And and this goes to the next answer, I had a my two main questions was one, like, surely though your earth is not 6,000 years old.

第二个问题是，我很难将旧约的伦理观与基督的教导对应起来。

And then two was, now I just had a hard time matching up old testament ethics with Christ's message.

我不知道该如何处理这些事情。

And I just didn't know how to do those things.

因此，我背负了大量我称之为文化包袱的东西。

And so I had a lot of what I would call cultural baggage.

我的信仰中有很多包袱，但因为我认识到其中的美好，我就想：我要坚持下去，但必须把婴儿和洗澡水分开。

There was a lot of baggage with my faith, but because I recognize it as good, I was like, I'm gonna try to stick with it, but I have to separate the baby from the bathwater.

这是一项艰巨的任务，因为信仰是一生的旅程，但耶稣确实如此，这给了我巨大的支持。

And that's kind of a daunting task because it's kind of a lifelong journey of faith, but I was given a great boost by the fact that actually Jesus did.

他在新约的某处说，总结一下，律法和先知的要点是什么？

He said in one part of the New Testament, he says, to give a summary, but what's the point of the law and the prophets?

这一切究竟为了什么？

Like, what is all this for?

他说：你要全心全意爱主你的神，并且爱人如己。

And he says, love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.

当我读到这段话时，我感到非常震惊，心想：哇。

So I was shocked when I read it because I was like, wow.

等一下。

Wait a second.

他把所有的洗澡水都倒掉了，只留给你婴儿。

He takes all the bathwater and throws it out for you and leaves you the baby.

要全心全意爱主你的神，并且爱人如己。

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and love the your neighbor as yourself.

这正是律法和先知一切教导的核心。

That was the whole point of the law and the prophets and everything else.

所以当时我不必去弄清楚所有其他事情。

And so I didn't have to figure everything else out at the time.

我愿意看看这是否真的能实现。

And I was okay with seeing if that would play out.

正如我所说，我看到过足够的果实，所以我不想彻底推翻它。

You know, like I said, I'd seen enough fruit that I didn't wanna bulldoze it.

你见过什么样的果实呢？

What kind of fruit had you seen

亲自见过的？

for yourself?

比如我妈妈就是一个真正有信仰的女性，我们家总是会有单亲妈妈来住。

So like my mom for one was like a real woman of faith and we'd always had single moms come over and live at the house.

她总是努力为囚犯、那些在外面的孩子们准备圣诞礼物。

And she would always work to like give gifts to Christmas gifts to prisoners, children that are out.

你知道，我一直看到她以爱的方式在世上行事。

You know, know, I always had her acting in the world in love.

在我年轻的时候，你有这样一个理想，它与你本能的欲望相互冲突。

And in my own life as a young man, you know, you got this thing, this ideal that's pushing against your natural lust and this and that.

你知道，这会打乱你的自然倾向，无论是愤怒还是其他什么，它为你的生活叠加了一种爱的理想。

You know, it kinda throws a wrench into your natural tendencies, whether that be to anger or to, you know, it overlays your life with a love ideal.

我觉得这是好的。

And I saw that as good.

因此，在那时，基于这两点信息，我决定即使在黑暗中也要继续前行，并且可以把其他所有事情都暂停。

And so I chose at that time with those two bits of information that like continue even in the darkness and that I can like put everything else on pause.

我唯一需要去接受或不接受的，就是爱主这个核心。

The only thing I need to like accept or not accept is like love the Lord, that core.

我当时想，我愿意接受这一点。

And I was like, I'm okay with accepting that.

然后我做了一次非常深刻的祷告，希望有一天我能拥有与之相匹配的信仰，但我其实并不确定自己是否真的相信它。

And then I had this really deep prayer that someday I just wish I had the faith to match, but I didn't actually know if I per se believed it.

我只是知道，我会无论如何都去做。

I just knew that I'm gonna do it anyway.

在那段时间里，我也在旅行，去纽约，去弗吉尼亚，四处奔波。

So in that time, I was also traveling and going to New York and going to Virginia and running all around.

我听说了一个去俄罗斯建造孤儿院的机会。

And I had heard of this opportunity to go to Russia and build an orphanage.

因此，这是我对俄罗斯的最初想法。

So that was the first thought of Russia.

而且again，那只是个遥远的想法，我没太当真，但我确实祈祷了：主啊，如果你希望我去，你得给我一个征兆，因为我根本没有理由去。

And again, it was the distant and I didn't think much of it, but I did pray, well, if you want me to go, Lord, you know, you're gonna have to give me a sign because I don't have any reason to go.

然后我去了纽约。

And then I went to New York.

我想那是个有点随意的祈祷。

It was kind of a flippant prayer, I think.

我去纽约时遇到了一位俄罗斯人，她主动提出教我俄语，因为话题刚好聊到了。

I went to New York and met a Russian there and she had offered to give me Russian lessons because, you know, the topic came up.

我接受了，但我不知道那究竟是什么，也许是因为让一个模糊的概念有了具体的面孔，或是上帝的作为，不管你怎么称呼它。

And I did, and I don't know what it was, but I think it was maybe either putting a face to a vague idea or a act of God or whatever you wanna call it.

但不知为何，它深深触动了我的情感。

But for some reason, it hit me really emotionally.

我回到那里我姐姐的公寓，只是不停地哭，天哪。

Like I would went back to the my apartment there, my sister's apartment, and just would cry like, oh man.

我感到一种沉重的负担，而这负担甚至不是针对她的。

Like, I felt like a heavy burden for it wasn't even directed at her.

这针对的是那种模糊的去意。

It was directed at this vague idea of going.

我当时也说不清楚。

And I couldn't tell.

即使在当时，我也觉得很难解释，但这件事其实是可以解释的。

Even at the time, was like, I couldn't quite explain it, but it could be explicable.

但我也愿意把它看作是我祈求的那股推动力。

But also I could just accept it as the kick that I prayed for.

于是我就这么做了。

And so I kinda did.

而且，我依然没有一个具体的人影可以对应。

And again, I still didn't have the face to match.

然后我记得，我对自己说：好吧，我要去了。

Then I remember going, I was like, okay, I'm gonna go.

我把这当作是对我的回应。

I'm taking it as an answer.

我买了一张为期一年的票，去了一个连自己都不太清楚的地方。

I bought a ticket for a year and headed over to I didn't even really know where.

那里有个家伙，叫贾斯汀·沃克，是个很棒的人。

And there was a guy over there, Justice Walker, awesome dude.

他正在负责那所孤儿院的建设项目。

He was getting heading up that orphanage building project.

所以那成了我唯一的联系。

And so that was my only connection.

然后我记得在火车上，我心想，离开真不容易，因为我喜欢一个女孩，还有许多其他想法——我想继续深造，也许成为海军陆战队的军官。

And then I remember on the train, I was like, it was hard for me to go because I had like a girl I had a crush on and all these, I wanted to pursue my education and maybe become an officer in the Marines.

你知道，我原本有这么多规划。

You know, all these things I had ideas for.

但就在那列火车上，我放弃了这一切，任由列车轰鸣着穿越远方。

And then I was on this train and had given all that up, like on the transit being really chugging across.

我记得当时只是默默祈祷：主啊，如果我能拥有一样东西，求你有一天赐给我与我牺牲意愿相匹配的信念。

I remember just like, Lord, if I could have one thing, someday give me faith to match my, like, willingness to sacrifice.

这就是我前往俄罗斯的契机，有点漫无目的，我只抓住了一件事。

So that was my kick into Russia, kinda open ended and I just had one thing I was grasping.

那就是，要爱人如己。

Like, love your neighbor as yourself.

让我看看能否在我所处的任何地方，在世界上践行这一点。

Let me see if I can implement this in the world in whatever place I am.

除此之外，我并没有刻意想要做其他任何事情。

I wasn't trying to per se do anything other than that.

告诉我，这样理解是否恰当。

Tell me if this is a fair read.

我经常对自己和别人说这句话，而且我绝对是借用别人的。

I've often said to myself and to other people, and I absolutely borrowed it from someone else.

这不是我自己想出来的。

I did not come up with this.

但总的原则是，通过行动来改变思维方式，比通过思考来改变行为方式要容易。

But the general maxim that it's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking than to think your way into a new way of acting.

是的。

Mhmm.

是的。

Mhmm.

所以，就像假装一样。

So act as if.

假装一样。

Act as if.

确实如此。

That's very much so.

对。

Right.

我认为，尤其是在面对冷漠或爱这类问题时，或者你如何与世界建立联系时，尤其如此。

And I think particularly when you're dealing with something like apathy or love, or, you know, like how do you relate in the world?

有一件事很明确，那就是：这其实是一种行动，你知道的，所以我们就要这么做。

Like one thing that was clear is like, oh, well actually it's an action, you know, like, and so we're gonna do this.

你知道，你不能在这种状态下停滞不前。

You know, you can't be stagnant in that orientation.

但我认为这很好地总结了。

But I think that's a good summary.

是的。

Yes.

你是怎么从孤儿院去到伊万基的？

How did you go from orphanage to Ivanky?

我去那里帮忙协助贾斯汀·沃克建造这座孤儿院。

I went over to help Justice Walker build this orphanage.

那挺有意思的，但我不确定。

And that was neat, but I I don't know.

当时就我一个人。

It was just me.

他需要大量基础工作，比如打井，但后来他找齐了一支团队，准备过来真正搭建结构并完成所有工程。

And he needed a lot of groundwork laid and wells dug, but he eventually had a crew lined up that was gonna come over and actually frame the thing and put the thing up and do all that.

所以我当时在那里打基础。

So I was there kinda doing the groundwork.

我们挖了井，做了很多事，但那仍然只是初步工作。

We dug a well and did all this stuff, but it was still pretty preliminary.

我在那里待了几个月，非常享受在俄罗斯的日子，但我意识到自己真的很想和俄罗斯人一起生活。

And I was there for a few months, really enjoyed being in Russia, but I was struck by the fact that I actually really wanna live with Russians.

你知道吗？

You know?

于是我跟Justice说了这个想法，他说：‘那我们给邻村打个电话吧。’

And so I told that to Justice, and he was like, Well, let's call the neighboring village.

他给他打了电话。

He called him up.

那人说：‘哇哦。’

And the guy was like, Woah.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

把那个美国人派过来。

Send the American over.

我妻子在医院，我需要人照看我的孩子。

My wife's in the hospital and I need someone to watch my kids.

你在三号那里待了多久？

How long had you been there at Three that

几个月吧，我猜。

months, I would guess.

那时候你会说多少俄语？

How much Russian did you speak at that point?

很少。

Very little.

很少。

Very little.

我是想学点，但问题在于，正义是个我见过读书最多的人之一，和他聊天特别有趣。

Like, I was trying to pick it up, but that was part of the problem is Justice was so much he's one of the most well read people I've ever been with, so it was so fun to just talk to him and

这比你做自己的工作容易多了。

It's a lot easier than working on your

没错。

Exactly.

所以我当时并没有刻意去学，但当你刚到一个国家时，你会惊讶于自己能通过非语言方式交流多少，然后突然就碰到了瓶颈。

And so I was not doing it to the and when you first go to a country, you're so struck by how much you can communicate through non verbally and then you all a sudden hit a wall.

然后你就觉得，好吧。

And then it's like, okay.

我想尽快突破这个瓶颈。

I wanted to get past that as fast as possible.

于是我去了那个小村庄，完全融入了西伯利亚的乡村生活。

So I went to that little village and was fully immersed in a Siberian, you know, village life right there.

是的。

Yeah.

这挺搞笑的，因为我之前从来没接触过孩子之类的。

It was pretty funny because I hadn't dealt with kids before or anything like that.

尤罗不得不回去继续他的伐木厂工作。

Euro had to go back to his lumber mill job.

他是个高大的俄罗斯汉子，你知道的，那种大力握手。

And so he was big Russian dude, you know, that big handshake.

太高兴你来了。

Oh, so glad you're here.

然后他带我四处逛了逛。

And showed me around.

这是孩子们，一个五岁男孩和一个两岁女孩，他介绍了我们认识，还让我喝点茶。

And here's the kids, five year old boy and a two year old girl, you know, introduced, have some tea.

第二天，他就已经去上班了。

Then the next day, he's already off to work.

他给我指了杂货店在哪里。

He'd pointed me where the grocery store is.

于是我被扔进深水区，得独自照顾这两个孩子。

And so I was in the deep end trying to take care of these two kids.

我以前从来没干过这种事。

I'd never done that before.

我去帮他买菜。

Grocery shop for him.

我甚至不懂他们的语言。

I didn't even know the language.

我想，这就是我真正踏入俄罗斯生活的开端吧。

And that was my splash into Russia proper, I guess, in that regards.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那你是怎么进入驯鹿地区的呢？

And then how do you get into reindeer territory?

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

所以这些家伙，他们之前都进过监狱，那个是谁来着？

So that's been so these guys these guys had all the year had been to prison before and and Who was that?

抱歉。

Sorry.

那个俄罗斯人。

The Russian guy.

那个手很大的家伙。

The guy with the big hand.

一起住。

Live with.

是的。

Yeah.

那个高大的俄罗斯人。

The big Russian.

是的。

Yeah.

他的邻居叫伊戈尔，他也坐过牢。

And he his neighbor was named was Igor, and he had also been to prison.

这些人都来自西伯利亚，有着颇为传奇的过往。

And these are all guys in Siberia with pretty storied pasts.

但他们真的很喜欢我去他们那里。

But they really enjoyed having me over there.

首先，我真的很努力工作，对他们来说，有个美国人出现实在太意外了，他们俩经常争着把我拉到各自家里。

For one, I was, like, really trying to just work hard, and it was so random for them to have an American that they would kinda tug of war me back between their two houses.

那个美国人？

That American?

是的。

Yeah.

它

It

他们俩都像家人一样对待我。

was they both became like families to me.

你知道，他们俩都有孩子，各自以不同的方式过得非常开心。

You know, they both had kids and both a lot of fun in different ways.

但第二个家庭，埃格一家，曾和一位来自远北地区的原住民毛皮猎人一起坐过牢。

But Eager, the second family there, had been in prison with a native fur trapper from the Far North.

他们关系非常亲密，因为他们在狱中一起找到了信仰，诸如此类的事情。

And they're really close because they had like found God in prison together and this and that.

所以他总是告诉我，你一定要去北方见见我的毛皮猎人朋友。

And so he was always telling me, you gotta go north and meet my fur trapping buddy.

所以在俄罗斯生活了一年后，就在那年年底，猎人尤里来到镇上卖毛皮，我们见了面，他邀请我去他那里住。

So after that year of living in Russia, I right at the end of it, Yuri, trapper came through town to sell furs and we met and he invited me up to live with him.

于是我心想，好，我要先回美国续签签证，赚点钱，然后再回来。

So I was like, yeah, I'm gonna go home to America, renew my visa, get some earn some money and then I'll come back.

于是我回去后，几乎直接向北出发了。

And so I went back and headed straight north more or less.

而且这次我更是深陷其中了。

And and I was in even more over my head.

那么，当你第一次抵达极北地区时，第一天、第一周是什么样的？

So what was what was the first day like when you land first day, first week, when you land in the far north?

哦，挺有趣的。

Oh, was funny.

这是在西伯利亚腹地吗？

Now this is in Siberia proper?

我们其实一直在西伯利亚，只是逐渐往更北的地方走，属于中西伯利亚地区。

Well, we've been in Siberia the whole time, but it was just incrementally further north in kind of Central Siberia.

极北地区有多冷？

How cold does it get in the far

在最北端，也就是我后来和游牧民族待在一起的地方，温度会降到零下58度，甚至零下六十度左右，那种程度就算非常寒冷了。

the northernmost north, you know, where I would end up being with the nomads, it'd get to negative 58, negative sixties, like kind of the the cutoff, chilly.

刚到北方时，挺有意思的。

First getting to the north, it's funny.

老实说，我刚到俄罗斯时印象最深的一点是，那里的人喝酒特别多。

Well, one thing I was struck by, honestly, when I got to Russia was there's a lot of drinking.

是的

Yeah.

每当我往北走一步，每到一个新地方，我都会逐渐适应那里的温度。

Every bit I went further north, every time I would get used to it at one place.

我记得有一次在村庄里开车。

And I remember driving in a village.

在第一个村庄，我和贾斯汀一起，在一个寒冷的冬日坐在巴士里慢悠悠地行驶，突然车子避开了路上躺着的一个人。

In the first village, I was with Justice, and we're just cruising along on a cold winter day in the bus, and it swerves around this guy laying in the road.

但我们当时在荒无人烟的地方。

But we're out in the middle of nowhere.

我当时想：天啊。

I was like, woah.

外面太冷了。

Like, it's cold out.

我们打算停车，而坐在我对面的那位女士，我勉强用我那点蹩脚的俄语和她交流。

We're gonna stop, and the lady across from me, and I could, make out with my bad Russian.

她就说：‘啊，他是个醉鬼。’

She's like, ah, he's a drunk.

他死了。

He's dead.

我当时想：哇。

I was like, woah.

所以那挺激烈的，但你会逐渐适应新的常态。

And so it was kinda intense, but you kinda recalibrate at the new norm.

当我到达下一个更北的村庄时，我又一次被震撼了。

And when I went to the next northern village, it re struck me again.

我当时想：哦，这里一片混乱。

I was like, oh, there's chaos.

第一周之所以这样，是因为我和尤拉在一起，他带我四处逛，你知道的，我们去了第一户人家，我想甚至可能是在从机场接人的路上，我们顺路接了一个陌生的醉汉，他拿出手机说：‘听这个。’

And that first week was that because I was with Yura and he was showing me around and, you know, we go to this first house and, I mean, I think even it might've been even on the way from the airport, but pick up some random drunk guy and he's like, yeah, he holds up his phone, listen to this.

他老婆正在狠狠地训斥他、骂他。

And just his wife just chewing him out and cussing him out.

他说，这就是俄罗斯女人的怒火，你知道的，因为他已经失踪了不知多久。

He's like, that's the fury of Russian woman, you know, because he's been missing for who knows how long.

我们来看看。

Let's see.

我该怎么总结一下昨晚晚餐时我们聊的一些内容呢？

How can I summarize some of what we we were talking about at dinner last night?

对。

Yeah.

如果我哪里说错了，请纠正我。

Correct me if I get anything wrong.

比如在伊万基，你有这些靠狩猎、捕猎为生的人，他们拥有百科全书般的知识和能力。

Like, in the Ivanky, you have these sustenance hunters, trappers, etcetera, with encyclopedic knowledge and wherewithal.

没错。

Absolutely.

这真是令人难以置信。

It's it's just mind boggling.

对吧？

Right?

我还没有机会去那个地区，但肯定去过中美洲和南美洲、非洲等地。

I I haven't had an opportunity to spend time in that region of the world, but certainly in Central And South America and Africa and so on.

当你开始观察，比如说，南非的沙加纳追踪者，或者嗯。

When you start to look at, let's just say, like, Shangan trackers in South Africa or Mhmm.

他们有不同的层次，比如卡拉哈里布须曼人，而且还有不同的层次，而且

There are, like, levels and then the Kalahari Bushman, and then there are levels, and

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们对环境的熟悉程度令人难以置信。

It's unbelievable how fluent they are in their environment.

是的。

Yep.

对吧？

Right?

而且

And

同时，这些群体中的许多人都有一个致命弱点

at the same time, many of these groups have an Achilles heel

这正是我的感觉。

That's what it feels like.

那就是酒精。

Which is alcohol.

嗯。

Mhmm.

为了更清楚地说明，因凶杀、自杀或酒精相关事故导致的死亡比例是多少？

And to put it in perspective, what is the percentage of deaths attributable to homicide, suicide, or alcohol related accidents?

是的。

Yeah.

我听说在北方原住民村庄中，有百分之三十的人死于凶杀或自杀。

The statistic I heard for the northern native villages was thirty percent of people die from homicide, suicide.

我真的在这里生活了很久，所以很感谢你能稍微退一步看问题，因为我并不想把家丑外扬，而没有提供适当的背景。

It's really and having lived there a long time, like, actually, appreciate you stepping back a little bit because I don't wanna, like, air dirty laundry and not put the proper context.

我真的很爱那些人，他们是我的朋友，我的很多朋友都有这个问题。

Like, I love those people and they're my friends and many of my friends have that issue.

但当这种情况达到那个程度时，后果是非常实实在在的。

But it has really tangible consequences when it's at that level.

但没错，那真的很惊人，因为你会走进村庄，看到人们躺在地上醉上好几个星期，持续不断地酗酒，只有把他们带进森林里才能打破这种状态。

But yes, it was amazing because these people, you know, you'd go in the village and they'd be just on the ground drunk for like weeks on end, just binges that could only be broken by taking them back out in the woods.

但当他们进入森林、清醒过来后，这些人却是最酷、最有知识的人。

But when they get in the woods and sober up, these are like the coolest, most knowledgeable people.

然后你还会遇到那些看似快乐、生活充实、非常开放友善、很快就能像家人一样相处的人。

And then people that you would say are happy and living a fulfilled life and also just really open and pleasant and quick to become family basically.

但这一切几乎可以用他们多年来所经历的文化动荡来解释，因为直到上世纪三十年代，苏联和斯大林才真正开始强力干预，而在此之前，当地一直延续着与俄罗斯毛皮猎人共存的传统生活方式。

But it was almost explicable just in the cultural tumult that they've had to endure over time because, you know, it was just in the thirties and stuff that basically the Soviet Union and Stalin like kind of really grabbed ahold of what was had been long before just the traditional way of life that continued forward alongside Russian fur trappers and this and that.

他们以铁腕手段强制集体化，将所有精神领袖——包括萨满和其他人——全部送进了劳改营。

And they grabbed ahold of it with, an iron fist force collectivized that all the people that were spiritual leaders of any kind, shamans, and everybody else got sent to prison camps.

任何真正有生产力的人。

Anyone that was really productive.

所以，比如，谁要是有超过500头驯鹿，就会被当作富农之类的人送进劳改营。

So, like, anyone that had more than 500 reindeer were sent to prison camps as kulaks or whatever.

你知道的。

You know?

然后他们几乎彻底摧毁了这些人的智慧与精神核心，接着强行建起了这些村庄。

And then they kinda just gutted the intellectual and spiritual soul from them and then forced built these villages.

他们强迫他们变成那样。

They forced them to be them.

原本他们拥有驯鹿，自由地生活在荒野中，但后来却被改造成集体农庄。

And then instead of them having reindeer and being people existing freely out in the wilderness, they turned them into collective farms.

现在你被雇去放牧政府的驯鹿，而你的妻子可能被雇去当帐篷工人，住在帐篷里。

So now you're hired as a reindeer herder to herd the government's reindeer and your wife might be hired as a teepee worker to live in the teepee.

于是他们彻底重组了整个生活方式。

And so they just restructured the life.

现在孩子们不再和你们一起住在森林里了。

The kids now don't live with you in the woods.

他们去寄宿学校了，家庭被拆散了。

They go to boarding school, separated the families.

但不知怎么的，这种模式还真行得通，你知道吗？

And then somehow they actually made that kind of work, you know?

在某种程度上，虽然驯鹿的独立性不如从前，但它们的数量大幅增长，人们也变得有生产力，而且酒精被禁止了。

And to some degree, the reindeer, while less independent than they were prior, they flourished in that they had big herds of reindeer and people were productive and alcohol was banned.

所以他们确实相当有生产力。

So they kind of were quite productive.

然后苏联解体了，一夜之间，所有的驯鹿都变成了价高者得。

And then the Soviet Union collapsed and overnight, all the reindeer just became for the highest bidder.

于是，那些有钱的俄罗斯人和外地人涌入进来，买走了这些原本属于爷爷奶奶们用血汗养大的驯鹿，把它们宰杀后送到肉铺。

So the, you know, Russians and people from out of town that had a lot of money just came in and bought all these reindeer that were grandpa's and grandma's, you know, blood and sweat and just butchered them and send them to the meat shops.

而驯鹿牧民们则凑齐了仅有的一点钱，买下几头驯鹿，重新回到森林里。

And the reindeer herders scrape together what little bit of money they could and bought a few reindeer and went back into the woods.

我住的那家人姓范德克托维奇，我刚到那儿时，那位老人已经失明了，但他正是那些驯鹿的拥有者，他把儿子们从寄宿学校接回来，在森林里把他们养大。

The family I lived with was Van Dyktorvich, was the the old man when I first got there and he was blind, but he was the guy that had, like, got some of these reindeer, took his sons out of the boarding school and raised them in the woods.

因此，我也真正体会到了传统生活方式的价值，因为我见过那些没有坚持驯鹿放牧的村庄。

And so it gave me a real appreciation also for the traditional ways of life because I could see it in villages where reindeer herding hadn't been hung on to.

那些地方就像黑洞一样。

And they just felt like black holes.

每个人都只是喝酒，无所事事，也没有任何途径能让他们以自己native的方式获得成就感。

Like everybody was just drinking and there was nothing to do and they don't have an outlet to flourish with something they're proud of in their native ways.

所以感觉非常绝望，但那个有驯鹿放牧的村庄却完全不同，你知道的，那些在外面放牧驯鹿的人。

So it felt pretty dead end, but the village with the reindeer herding had this whole thing and they you know, the reindeer herders out there.

正因为如此，即使那些不从事放牧的人，也为自己是驯鹿放牧者而感到自豪，他们会把孩子送到那里过夏天，人们心中有一种微弱但真实的文化动力，这真的很

And because of that, even the people that don't do it are proud to be reindeer herders and they're a place to send their kids in the summer and people have this there's a little bit of cultural momentum that Let's is really

我们来深入剖析一下‘驯鹿’这个词和这种动物的意义吧，因为它被反复提及，人们总是说，

unpack this word and this animal and the significance of reindeer because it's come up a ton, and people are like,

到底怎么回事

what is up

这些神奇的驯鹿吗？

with these magical reindeer?

大概是吧。

Probably.

首先，为了让大家有个直观的印象，这可能帮不上忙，但驯鹿和北美驯鹿有多相似？

So first of all, just to paint a picture for folks, and this might not help, but how similar are reindeer to caribou?

非常相似。

Very similar.

几乎你分辨不出区别，但它们确实因为长期隔离而有轻微的基因差异。

Almost you probably wouldn't recognize the difference, but they do have a slight genetic just from separation.

驯鹿原产于旧大陆，而北美驯鹿是新大陆（比如加拿大等地）的类似动物。

So reindeer are technically in the old world and caribou are the similar animal, but in the new world, so Canada and stuff.

它们可以互相交配，但后代情况很差。

And they can breed with each other and stuff, but the results turn out poorly.

它们会继承双方最糟糕的特征。

Like, they get the worst traits of both.

而在旧世界，尤其是很早以前，驯鹿就被驯化了，大约一万年前左右。

And then in the old world, more so than well, an old world, it's the reindeer were domesticated very long ago, like ten thousand years ago or whenever.

因此，实际上已经形成了一种略微家养化的驯鹿品种。

So there's actually kind of become a bit of a domestic strain of reindeer.

如今，原住民已经无法驯化野生的驯鹿了。

Like the natives now can't domesticate the wild ones.

如果一只野生驯鹿混入并和它们交配，后代永远都会是野生的。

And if a wild one comes in and breeds with theirs, then it's always gonna be wild.

这种生活方式已经持续了足够长的时间，以至于野生驯鹿和半家养驯鹿之间甚至出现了遗传上的差异。

So it's been a way of life long enough that there's some even genetic separation between the wild and the semi domestic.

那么，驯鹿的作用是什么？

And what is the role of the reindeer?

它们为什么如此重要？

Why are they so important?

这是否类似于北美大平原印第安人对野牛的依赖？

Is it is it analogous to, say, bison for some of the Plains Indians in North America?

这有区别吗？

Is it different?

因为驯化而不同。

Different the because domestication.

没错。

Exactly.

我想说，这和野牛类似，因为他们的整个文化故事都与驯鹿紧密相连。

I was gonna say it's analogous in that, you know, their whole cultural stories and everything are all connected with the reindeer, like with the bison.

但确实有所不同，因为驯鹿实际上让在泰加林、那些偏远的北方森林中生活成为可能。

But it does differ because the reindeer actually practically make living in the woods in the Taiga, in those remote northern forests, a thing.

这让人们能够全年在野外生存，并拥有交通工具。

Like, makes it possible to exist out there year round and have transportation.

他们像骑马一样骑驯鹿。

So they ride the reindeer like you would horses.

冬天的时候，他们还会乘坐雪橇。

And then they also, in the wintertime, ride, you know, sleighs.

当狩猎不顺利时，它们提供肉类。

They provide meat when the hunts don't go well.

它们提供毛皮，你知道的，几乎提供了一切。

They provide the furs that you know, so they kind of provide everything.

它们还提供了文化背景。

They also provide just the cultural context.

你可以去那里，当然，搭个帐篷，生活，带些面条，然后，过得很好。

Like you could go out there, sure, and set up a teepee and live and bring in noodles and, you know, be just fine.

但如果没有驯鹿所创造的生活节奏，那里就会显得相当死寂。

But but it would feel fairly dead without just the rhythms of life that are created by the rangers.

所以它们对这一切至关重要。

So they're really core to to that.

某种意义上的生活节奏。

Sort of the rhythms.

生活的节奏。

To the rhythms.

而且实际上，我一向讨厌雪地摩托，因为它们很容易出故障，然后你就被困在离营地四十公里的地方。

And and but also they're very practically I always hated snowmobiles because they're gonna break down and then you're gonna be stuck, you know, 40 kilometers from camp.

就像你说的，你的手都冻得不听使唤了。

And like you said, your hands aren't working.

你得想办法修理这一大堆东西。

You gotta try to work on this whole thing.

当你有驯鹿和雪橇的时候，就完全不是问题。

When you had a reindeer and a sleigh, no problem.

你知道的？

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所以，我在森林里住了一段时间后，学到一个有意思的观点：你其实已经回家了。

And so you can there's a point that is interesting to make that I learned living in the woods for a while is, like, you're home.

无论你在哪里，你都已经在家了。

You're just already home wherever you are.

所以，当你有驯鹿这些东西的时候，你就不会迷路。

And so, like, when you have your reindeer and stuff, you're not lost.

你就在家。

You're home.

你所在的地方就是家，你能将这种感觉真正地融入其中，成为大自然的一部分。

You're just where you are is kind of home, and you're able to take that and really embody it and become, like, a part of the wilderness in that way.

嗯。

Mhmm.

简单感谢一下我们的赞助商，马上回来继续节目。

Just a quick thanks to our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show.

睡眠是这一切的关键。

Sleep is the key to it all.

它是基础。

It is the foundation.

你们很多人听过我谈论今天的赞助商Eight Sleep如何通过它的智能床罩改善了我的睡眠。

Many of you heard me talk about how today's sponsor Eight Sleep has improved my sleep with its pod cover.

Pod Five推出了Eight Sleep的最新产品——毯子，它使用与床罩相同的温控技术，将温度调节覆盖全身。

Pod five introduces Eight Sleep's latest product, the blanket, which uses the same technology as the pod's cover to extend temperature regulation across the entire body.

平均而言，用户表示使用Pod后，入睡速度提升了44%，深度睡眠增加了34%，每晚多睡了整整一小时。

On average, members report the pod has helped them fall asleep 44% faster, 34% deeper sleep, and given them up to one added hour of sleep each night.

此外，Pod的打鼾检测和自动抬升平台功能已将用户的打鼾情况减少了45%。

Also, the pod snoring detection and automatic elevating platform have reduced users snoring by 45%.

你每天早上还会收到一份个性化报告，帮助你追踪睡眠阶段、心率变异性、呼吸频率等数据，而且无需佩戴任何设备。

You'll also get a personalized report each morning, allowing you to track your sleep stages, heart rate variability, respiratory rate, and more, all without having any devices strapped onto you.

所以，请前往8sleep.com/tim并使用代码Tim，即可享受高达350美元的Pod Five Ultra优惠。

So head over to 8sleep.com/tim and use code Tim to get $350 off of your very own Pod five Ultra.

你可以在家中试用30天，如果不满意可以退货。

You can try it at home for thirty days and return if you don't like it.

再次提醒，访问8sleep.com/tim即可享受350美元优惠。

Again, that's 8sleep.com/tim for $350 off.

全球许多国家都提供配送服务。

Shipping is available to many countries worldwide.

再说一遍，8sleep.com/tim。

One more time, 8sleep.com/tim.

听众们多年来一直听我谈论'先创造，后管理'的理念。

Listeners have heard me talk about making before you manage for years.

这对我来说意味着，当我醒来时，我会留出三到四个小时来处理最重要、最具创造性的事情，比如播客、写作等等，然后才去处理邮件、行政事务、被动应对的事情以及别人对我时间的安排。

All that means to me is that when I wake up, I block out three to four hours to do the most important things that are generative, creative, podcasting, writing, etcetera, before I get to the email and the admin stuff and the reactive stuff and everyone else's agenda for my time.

对我来说，我需要找到擅长管理的人，而这正是Crescent Family Office的用武之地。

For me, I need to find people who are great at managing, and that is where Crescent Family Office comes in.

它的拼写是c r e s s e t。

You spell it c r e s s e t.

Crescent Family Office。

Crescent Family Office.

我是由世界上顶级的CPG投资者之一介绍给他们的。

I was introduced to them by one of the top CPG investors in the world.

Cressett 是一家为首席执行官、创始人和企业家提供服务的知名家族办公室。

Crescent is a prestigious family office for CEOs, founders, and entrepreneurs.

他们负责处理复杂的财务规划、不确定的税务策略、及时的退出计划、账单支付、资金转账，以及财富管理和财务管理中其他数十项琐碎事务，这些原本会分散我专注于我最热爱的事情——创造、掌握技能、与我在意的人共度时光的时间。

They handle the complex financial planning, uncertain tax strategies, timely exit planning, bill pay, wires, all the dozens of other parts of wealth management and just financial management that would otherwise pull me away from doing what I love most, making things, mastering skills, spending time with the people I care about.

多年来，我每周至少有几天被这些事务牵扯，但现在我已完全摆脱了这些干扰。

And over many years, I was getting pulled away from that stuff at least a few days a week, and I've completely eliminated that.

在顶尖财富管理团队的支持下，体验专注于对你重要的事情的自由。

So experience the freedom of focusing on what matters to you with the support of a top wealth management team.

你今天就可以在 crescentcapital.com/tim 预约一次通话。

You can schedule a call today at crescentcapital.com/tim.

拼写是 cresset，访问 cressettcapital.com/tim，了解 Cressett 如何帮助你简化财务规划并增加财富。

That's spelled cresset, cressettcapital.com/tim to see how Cressett can help streamline your financial plans and grow your wealth.

网址是 cressettcapital.com/tim。

That's cressettcapital.com/tim.

此外，我本人是 Cressett 的客户。

And disclosure, I am a client of Cressett.

除了这个付费证言外，没有其他重大利益冲突。

There are no material conflicts other than this paid testimonial.

当然，所有投资都涉及风险，包括本金损失。

And, of course, all investing involves risk, including loss of principal.

所以请做好尽职调查。

So do your due diligence.

我们一会儿再回到跳绳和火车的话题，但你刚才略过了《古拉格群岛》。

So we're gonna get back to hop and trains in a second, but you kinda passed over Gulag Archipelago.

对。

Right.

你说它对你有影响。

And you're like, it had an influence.

它对我产生了影响。

It had an impact on me.

这看起来可能还是轻描淡写了。

Seems like that might be an understatement.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

我不知道。

I don't know.

对于那些好奇的人，这可不是一本轻松随意的百页读物。

For people who are wondering, this is not a light breezy 100 page read.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

我们马上就会谈到这一点。

And we're gonna come to that in in just a second.

但你的童年教育是怎样的？

But what did your childhood education look like?

我接受的是家庭教育。

I was homeschooled.

我妈妈非常认真对待，她亲自参与我们的教学。

So my mom took it real seriously and she was pretty hands on in teaching us.

不知为什么，我从小就很着迷于历史。

And I, for whatever reason, really got into history as a young kid.

所以即使大概十二岁的时候，我就读了一本厚厚的书，我记得那是我第一本真正厚重的书，讲的是硫磺岛和二战以及其他战役。

So even probably was 12, read this big I remember it was my first real thick book, but it was about Iwo Jima and like World War II and other battles.

后来我特别沉迷于回忆录，读了很多关于二战的德国回忆录，这些书总是令人震惊，因为它们描述了人们经历的种种苦难。

Then I got really into those memoirs, read a bunch of German memoirs from World War II, which were always crazy because they had to go through so much.

然后我又读了俄罗斯的回忆录，总之我读了所有能找到的回忆录，后来不知怎么就发现了《古拉格群岛》。

And then the Russian ones because I was anyway, got in all the memoirs and then somehow came across the Gulag Archipelago.

我当时还很年轻，大概十七八岁的时候第一次读到它。

And I was fairly young, you know, was probably 17, 18 when I first read it.

这本书以很多方式影响了我，尤其是对我之前那条微小的精神探索之路，因为书中很多内容都提到，幸福不应该是人生的终极目标。

And it impacted me in a lot of ways that were relevant to my, the little spiritual path that I was on before, because a lot of what he talks about is that happiness can't be our ultimate goal in life.

我们必须有目标。

We have to have purpose.

你能给那些不太了解的人简单解释一下吗？当然，我自己也不是特别熟悉，但什么是，是的。

Could you just for people who, and certainly I'm not intimately familiar with it, but what is Yeah.

这本书写了什么？

What is written about?

亚历山大·索尔仁尼琴是二战前线的一名士兵，他曾写信批评斯大林之类的事情。

Alexander Scholzhenitsyn was a guy who's on the front in World War II and wrote a letter back criticizing Stalin or something.

当然，他因此被审查、逮捕，并被送往古拉格——这些是遍布整个苏联的苏联劳改营。

And of course, he got checked and he got arrested and sent to, Gulag, which were the Soviet prison camps that kinda snaked their way all through the Soviet Union.

与普通罪犯相比，政治犯受到的待遇尤其严酷。

They were particularly harsh on political prisoners as opposed to crime prisoners.

他们把这些囚犯送到几乎等于死亡营的地方，去采矿或从事维持系统运转的繁重劳动。

They would send these guys out to basically death camps and have a mine or do the labor basically that kept the thing going.

但这些地方的设计本就极其残酷和黑暗。

But they were designed to be really brutal and dark places.

由于政治犯处于最底层，他们甚至允许强奸犯和其他罪犯掌控营地、制定规则。

The fact that even, you know, because the political prisoners were the bottom of the rung, they allowed the like rapists and those guys to kind of rule the roost and set the rules.

因此，情况逐渐恶化成相当可怕的境地。

And so they degraded into some pretty terrible situations.

但这些在西方基本上无人知晓，而他却是个极具智慧的人。

But this was all unknown basically to the West and he was, some kind of a brilliant mind.

在监狱里度过的八年或更长时间里，他拥有百科全书般的记忆力。

And he, over his eight or however many years he was in the prison camp, had an encyclopedic ability to, like, remember.

也许他记录了下来，我不确定，但这些故事都是关于那些经历过各种遭遇的人。

Maybe he wrote down, I don't know, but all these stories of people who had been through all these situations.

当你读到这些内容时，我深深感到，天啊，那些关于这位女士的短短段落。

And when you read it, I was just struck by like, man, there's all those little paragraph about this lady.

这位女士的故事完全值得写成一本书。

That lady should have her own book.

这些书中凝聚了如此惊人的悲剧、故事和种种经历。

Like that's a crazy amount of tragedy and story and all the stuff packed in those books.

另一个特别突出的例子是，当你进监狱时，每个人都会对自己说：我一定要活下去，你知道的？

Another example of something that really stood out was like, you know, when you get in prison, everybody says to themselves, I'm gonna survive, you know?

然后几乎漫不经心地加上一句：不惜一切代价。

Then you add at any cost to the end almost nonchalantly.

然后很快你就走上了这条道路，为了生存而踩踏他人，因为你必须优先照顾自己，适者生存。

And then pretty soon you start down this path where you're basically stomping on others to survive because you need to look out for number one, survival of the fittest.

他说，几乎所有人都采纳了这种心态。

And he was like And everybody basically adopted that mentality.

他说，只有偶尔一些腐败的东正教会不知怎的培养出了这些老奶奶，这些老太太们没有让自己的灵魂走上那条路。

He's like, except for these occasional like corrupt Orthodox church had somehow created these babushkas, these old ladies that didn't allow their soul to go down that path.

他说，她们都死了，但在她们走向死亡的过程中，都是黑暗中的一束光。

And he's like, they all died, but they all were a light in the darkness on their way.

然后他逐渐点明了这一点：是的，你可以失去生命，但不能失去灵魂。

And then kinda gets at the point of, yeah, the lose your life, but don't lose your soul.

幸福不能成为你最终的目标。

And like happiness can't be your ultimate goal.

幸福可能因为健康状况的改变、被投入古拉格，或任何其他事情而被剥夺。

That can be taken from you by a health change or by getting thrown in a gulag or by whatever it is.

你必须拥有更深层、更自我锻造的目标，你知道的。

You have to have something deeper and self forging a purpose, you know.

我想聊聊家庭教育，因为虽然没有一个固定的模式，但人们脑海中可能有一些刻板印象，比如认为 homeschooling 就是像一个粗犷的山地男子那样。

I wanted to talk about the homeschooling because not that there is a single mold, but there are certain, I suppose, maybe archetypes that people might have in their heads as to what constitutes, like, a rugged mountain man effectively.

昨晚我和女朋友聊天时，她说：他并不符合我心目中那种粗犷山地男子的形象，但她并不是在说你

And I was chatting with my girlfriend last night, she was like, he doesn't really fit my vision of, like, a rugged mountain man, which is not she's not saying you're

不够粗犷。

not rugged.

但是

But

当你谈到，我想我们之后也会谈到，比如17岁时读亚述历史和《古拉格群岛》这样的事情。

when you're talking about and I'm sure we'll get to this, like, Assyrian history and reading Gulag Archipelago as a 17 year old.

这些事情通常不会被这样联系在一起。

Like, these are not terribly common things that get woven together.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你妈妈是怎么进行家庭教育的？

How did your mom do the homeschooling?

那一个星期是什么样子的？课程计划是怎样的？

Like, what did a week look like or the lesson plans?

这样说你能明白吗？

Does that make any sense?

我只是在想，对于美国很多人来说，家庭教育似乎是一种异常现象。

I'm just wondering because homeschooling, I think, for a lot of people in The United States seems like an aberration.

但当你看看我们读过的那些人的经历时，嗯。

But when you look at some of the people whose books we read Mhmm.

他们中的很多人其实都经历过类似家庭教育的阶段。

A lot of them had some equivalent of homeschooling.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这其实是因为公立学校有统一的标准，所有人都要按照这个标准接受教育，而且有一个最低门槛。

You know what I think it kind of is, is it's a public school, there is a standard and everybody's gonna be taught to that standard and there's kind of a minimum bar in this and that.

家庭教育则提供了更多元的选择，无论是消极的还是积极的方面。

Homeschooling allows for more divergent options, both on the negative and the positives.

你可以把孩子留在家里，什么都不教，照样过日子。

Can keep your kid at home and not teach them anything and go on.

但你也可以专注于孩子的独特兴趣和能力，让他们在这些方面取得卓越发展，而这在公立学校体系中是很难实现的。

But also you can really focus on your kid's unique interests and abilities and they can really excel and develop those in a way you wouldn't in kind of the public school realm.

因为我当时真的很喜欢历史，所以我们在这方面深入钻研，而且我有时间这么做，因为说实话，在公立学校里，你浪费了太多时间在无关紧要的事情上。

So because I was, yeah, really into history, you know, we leaned into that and I had the time to, because honestly in a public school setting, you burn up so much time going into, you know, just dinking around.

而我早上只需要花几个小时就能完成真正的学业，然后就可以去追求自己的兴趣。

Whereas I could get done with my actual academic schooling in just a couple hours in the morning, a few hours maybe, then go on to my interests.

所以它让你能够这样做。

And so it allows you to do that.

而且她一开始教我们的时候，真的是事无巨细、亲力亲为。

But and she kind of taught us, you know, initially she was really hands on.

但随着我们长大，她逐渐放手，要求我们更多地自学，按照她设定的课程计划进行。

And then the older we got, it was more hands off where we had to be more self taught and follow this whatever curriculum she had.

最后两年，也就是我高中的最后两年，我去了公立高中，也体验了一番那种环境。

And then the last two years of school, so my last junior and senior year, I went to a public high school and got that experience too.

有社交吗？

Got socialized?

有社交，那是一种奇怪的经历。

Got socialized, which was an odd experience.

我不确定我对社交这件事怎么看。

I'm not sure what I think of the socialization.

我本来想说，我更想当一只家猫，但你其实不是一只家猫。

Prefer I was gonna say prefer to be an indoor cat, you're not really an indoor cat.

不是。

No.

但就家庭教育而言，我觉得它有一个非常棒的优点。

But it so with homeschooling though, I think it had a really awesome thing.

我觉得在本国，家庭教育是一个很好的选择。

You know, I think it's great that it's an option in the country.

如果你是被家庭教育的，你就得关注它的弱点，也就是社交圈、朋友以及人际关系的培养。

It is one thing if you're homeschooled, you have to focus on its weakness, which is community and friends and developing that.

所以对于那些觉得这很有趣的人，要知道这是它的弱点，然后在安排时考虑到这一点。

So for people that think that's an interesting just know that that's its weakness and then account for that in how you organize.

这就是我们为孩子所做的。

So that's what we do with our kids.

你们是怎么为孩子考虑这一点的？

How do you account for it with your kids?

我们积极努力成为我们小镇社区的推动者。

We're really active in trying to be the catalyst for community in our town.

我们总是乐于聚会，让孩子们参加柔术、体操，参与各种活动，还会打电话联系其他家庭，组织徒步旅行，确保每周多次让孩子们和朋友们聚在一起。

Like we're always ready to hang out and we're all you know, we got them in jujitsu and we got them gymnastics and got them in all the things and then make phone calls, foster, like, hiking trips with the other families and make sure we're, like, multiple times a week getting the kids together with their friends and stuff.

你知道，你真的需要在这方面投入精力和关注。

You know, you just really put effort and focus on that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我也觉得，能够建立社区和社交纽带，从而实现社交，而不是在某种奇怪的人工环境中，这在很大程度上依赖于活动。

It also strikes me that the ability to build community and social bonds and therefore socialize, but not in some oddly artificial environment is kind of dependent on activities.

这可能对男孩尤其如此。

And maybe this is particularly true for boys.

我不确定。

I don't know.

但当我到你家时，我注意到你的孩子的表兄弟姐妹们总是在外面活动。

But what I observed when I was at your house, I just remember your kid's cousins visiting, and they were always outside doing something.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得这很重要。

Which I think is important.

对吧？

Right?

他们不是只坐在那里闲聊。

They're not just sitting around talking.

对大多数人类来说，包括成年人，一直这样坐着是不自然的。

That's not actually natural for most humans, including adults, to just do that all the time.

当时有共同的活动，当表亲们离开后，我想是你家的二孩子在哭。

There were shared activities, and then when the cousins left, I guess it was your middle child who was just crying.

确实是这样。

It is so it was

太可爱了，

so adorable,

但那种真挚而深刻的情感联系。

but just such heartfelt deep connections.

同样地，当我们去树林里坐着的时候，你哥哥也在那里。

And similarly, it's like when we were out in the woods and we were sitting around, your brother was there.

也许他对柔术的影响有点关系。

Maybe he had a thing or two to do with the jujitsu influence.

我不确定。

I don't know.

另一个永远不要挑起争斗的原因。

Another reason to never start fights.

你看到他时，根本不会觉得‘我好怕这个人’。

Like, you would not see him and be like, I'm terrified of that guy.

但他却能轻松把你扭成麻花，造成许多长期的骨科问题。

And yet, he could absolutely bend you into a pretzel and and cause lots of orthopedic lifelong problems.

所以我们当时就在那里。

So we're out there.

那是你哥哥、几只骆马，其中一只头有点歪，容易摔倒。

It was, you know, your brother, couple of llamas, one with a slightly lopsided head and prone to falling over.

说来话长。

It's a long story.

还有几个男人，我的两个密友，我们围坐在篝火旁。

And just a few guys, two of my close friends, and we're all around a fire.

我记不清是谁说的了。

And I can't remember who said it.