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完美，简洁。
Optimal, minimal.
在这个海拔，我能全速跑半英里，手才会开始抖。
At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start to shake.
我能回答你的私人问题吗？
Can I answer your personal question?
现在正好是最佳时机。
Now we're just seeing a perfect time.
米歇尔，终于，我们见面了。
Michelle, at long last, here we are.
是啊，我们见面了。
Here we are.
终于见到你本人，真好。
So nice to meet you in person.
我也是，见到你真高兴。
It's so nice to meet you too.
这对我来说太激动人心了，简直像做梦一样。
This is so exciting and surreal for me.
谢谢你今天让我混进你的播客工作室。
So thank you for letting me infiltrate your podcast studio today.
当然了。
Absolutely.
我特别兴奋。
I am thrilled.
大概三年前，我第一次把你和你的频道写进了我的通讯《周五五条》里。
It looks like about three years ago that I first put you and your channel in my newsletter, Five Bullet Friday.
说不定更早之前，我们共同的朋友亚当·格兰特就一直跟我念叨：你必须请米歇尔来做一期。
And I think it was probably even before that that one of our mutual friends, Adam Grant, had been telling me repeatedly, you you have to have Michelle on the show.
我当初那么想把你写进通讯，不知道你还记不记得那句话。
And the reason that I was so excited to put you in the newsletter, I don't know if you remember the line.
我后来特地翻出来看了下，我原话是怎么说的。
I went back and I looked at what I said exactly.
我当时说，太高兴了，终于有人把这个理念真正做对了。
And one of the things I said was, I'm so happy that someone finally cracked sort of this premise and did it right.
不过大家可能根本不知道我在说什么，虽然我开头应该提过一句——那节目的核心卖点到底是什么？
But since people probably have no idea what I'm talking about, although I would have already said something in the intro, what's the logline, so to speak,
《挑战接受》啊。
for Of Challenge Accepted.
《挑战接受》。
Of Challenge Accepted.
具体是啥？
What is it?
《挑战接受》就是我尝试各种世界上最难的特技和职业的节目，比如学并挑战哈里·胡迪尼最致命的魔术——水牢逃脱，或者跟特勤局训练一周，最近呢，我还复刻了汤姆·克鲁斯在《碟中谍》里的经典镜头——在军机起飞时挂在机身侧面。
So Challenge Accepted is a show where I attempt the world's toughest stunts and professions, and that can range from learning and attempting Harry Houdini's deadliest trick, the water torture cell, to training with the Secret Service for a week, to most recently, I recreated Tom Cruise's stunt for Mission Impossible, where I was hanging off the side of a military aircraft as it was taking off.
你有六百多万粉丝，播放量超过十亿，我跟你说个事儿。
And you have more than 6,000,000 followers, more than a billion views, and I'm gonna read you know what?
咱们直接跳过开场吧，反正我也已经切入正题了。
We'll probably just skip the intro because I'm basically getting into it anyway.
米歇尔想证明，只要有足够的坚持和经历失败，任何事都可能做到。
Michelle hopes to prove that with enough dedication and failure, anything is possible.
这也是我特别欣赏这个节目的地方——就算你崩溃了、躺平了、摔跟头了，这些全都会拍进去。
And that's one of the characteristics that I most appreciate about the show is, like, if you have a breakdown, if you're flat on your back, if you stumble and fall, it's in there.
这根本不是缺点，反而是亮点。
That's a feature and not a bug.
没错。
Exactly.
所以不只是精彩片段，连低谷时刻也一并呈现。
So it's not just the highlights, it's also the lowlights.
既然都说到这儿了，我就直接念这段吧。
And since we're already getting into it, I'm just gonna read this paragraph.
好。
Alright.
米歇尔的作品拿过多个流媒体大奖，包括年度最佳节目，还登过《纽约时报》、《福布斯》、《Vogue印度》等媒体，2025年更是备受关注。
Michelle's work has earned multiple streaming awards including show of the year, has been featured in the New York Times, Forbes, Vogue India, and more in 2025.
《挑战接受》创造了历史，恭喜你们成功申请加入黄金时段艾美奖的提名名单。
Challenge Accepted made history, congratulations, successfully petitioning to join the Primetime Emmy ballot.
米歇尔因作为创作者和叙事者的影响力，被《时代》周刊评为年度百大人物。
Michelle was named a Time 100 honoree for her impact as a creator and storyteller.
咱们往回倒一倒。
Let's rewind way back.
我们刚开始之前聊了点关于路易斯安那州什里夫波特的事。
We were chatting a little bit before we got started about Shreveport, Louisiana.
哦，对。
Oh, yes.
给什里夫波特打个call。
Shout out Shreveport.
我提了句我去过那儿，你立马说：‘哎呀，真替你难过。’
And I mentioned I had been there and you were like, I'm so sorry.
没错。
Yes.
那儿没啥东西。
There's not much there.
我为啥去那儿？
Why was I there?
我当初为啥去那儿？
Why had I been there?
这跟你成长背景有啥关系吗？
And why does that tie into your background a little bit?
你小时候的经历？
Your history growing up?
你要不直接说吧，我自个儿先答了——我去Shreveport是因为那儿拍戏补贴特别给力，各种优惠都有。
If you wanna hop into it because I'll sort answer my own question, which is the reason I was in Shreveport is because they have very compelling tax incentives and other incentives for filming.
对啊。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
所以，你最早是怎么接触到这个行业——我是说，广义上的影视行业的？
So what was your first exposure to sort of the business, broadly speaking, in air quotes?
我第一次接触这个行业，是因为我爸特别特别爱看电影和电视剧。
My very first exposure to the business was my dad is a big, big movie and television lover.
他移民从印度来美国的时候，甚至在飞机上都靠看片子学英语。
He actually learned English after immigrating from India by watching films even on the plane from India to America.
小时候在什里夫波特没啥好玩的，每到周五晚上，我们全家都去电影院。
So growing up, because there's not much to do in Shreveport, every Friday night, we were at the movies.
不管是大片还是烂番茄评分低得离谱的B级片，我们都看。
Didn't matter if it was a blockbuster or a very low rated Rotten Tomatoes b side movie.
啥片子我都看过。
I saw everything.
儿童片、PG-13的，全都不落下。
Kids movies, PG 13, like, we saw it all.
看完电影，我们还会去吃披萨，边吃边聊电影。
And then we would go to a pizza shop and talk about the movie afterwards.
在什里夫波特，根本没什么别的可玩的。
Again, there's nothing to do in Street Forts.
所以去电影院简直就是最高级的娱乐了。
So this was like the pinnacle of entertainment.
自然而然地，我就像是上了一所自家办的小电影学校，你懂吧。
And so just naturally, I I started experiencing a homegrown little film school, if that makes sense.
我和我爸打印了一份AFI百大电影清单，贴在客厅里，每看一部就划掉一部。
We printed out the AFI top 100 movies and had them in our living room, and we would check them off as we watched them, me and my dad.
后来我长大点，各种税收优惠开始出现，拍电影的剧组纷纷跑到新奥尔良和什里夫波特来。
And what was special is as I got a little older, all these tax incentives started happening, bringing films to New Orleans and to Shreveport.
那会儿来了好多《暮光之城》那种跟风片。
We got a lot of, like, Twilight knockoff movies.
我记得有一部恐怖片就是在什里夫波特拍的。
I think one of the scary movies was shot in Shreveport.
我们小镇因此经历了一小波文艺经济热潮，特别带劲。
And so our town sort of experienced this little economic art renaissance, which was really exciting.
所以那时候，我们所有朋友和家人都开始去当电影和电视剧的群演，大家都特别兴奋。
And so all of our friends and and family members were becoming extras in movies and TV shows and and feeling, you know, very excited about all of that.
我最早的一份工作，是在一部巨石强森主演的电影里实习。
And so one of my first jobs was I had an internship on a movie starring The Rock.
那部电影叫《卧底》。
It was a movie called Snitch.
是2013年上映的。
It came out in 2013.
我那时候在剧组的名单上排得特别靠后。
And I think I was like so low on the call sheet.
连实习助理都排在我前面。
I was like, it was after all the PAs.
我就是那个最底层的助理实习生。
It was PA intern.
剧组名单上最后一个名字，就是我。
It was the last person on the call sheet was me.
我就负责给大家买咖啡，顺便学东西，那段经历真的太棒了。
And I was just getting coffee for people and learning, and it it was an incredible experience.
我特别喜欢这段经历，因为它让我看到了好莱坞顶级制作背后，讲好一个故事到底需要多少幕后工作。
And I love that because I got a window into the traditional scope of what it could take to tell a story at a higher Hollywood level.
所以我现在做《Challenge Accepted》时，也想把这种中间地带带进来——既有数字时代的自由和自主权，又保留对影视叙事历史的结构认知和尊重。
And that's what I hope to bring a lot of to what we do even on Challenge Accepted today is this midpoint of digital freedom, ownership, but structure and understanding and respect of the history of where our visual storytelling medium has come from.
我之所以说特别高兴终于有人把这事说清楚了，你肯定懂。
Part of the reason I said I'm so glad somebody finally sort of cracked this is you'll know this.
可能有些人还不太明白。
Some people may not.
我做这个播客其实有两个主要原因，或者说两个触发点，都跟‘拥有权’有关。
There are basically two reasons why I'm doing this podcast or the catalysts that led to this podcast, And they both relate to ownership in a sense.
第一个是《四小时厨师》，那简直是一场自杀式赶工。
The first was The Four Hour Chef, which was basically a suicide mission of a deadline.
本来该花三年写的书，硬是压缩到一年完成，这在物理上根本不可能。
Book that should have taken three years was done in a year, and that's just physically effectively impossible.
我那时候真是把自己累垮了。
So I ran myself into the ground with that.
因为你一直在亲自测试所有这些方法。
Because you are self testing all
这些技巧都是我自己试的。
of these techniques.
没错，我就是自己上阵。
I'm self test yeah.
就是这么回事。
Exactly.
我是真的把整本书都当成实验来搞，还傻乎乎地想自己学摄影，亲手拍下书里几百张照片——结果发现，摄影这活儿本身就是一门需要大量时间打磨的手艺。
I mean, I was doing everything in the book full of experiments, and somehow thought it would be a good idea to try to learn photography to do hundreds of photographs in the book myself, which turns out to be a craft in and of itself that takes a lot of time.
你至少得拍得像那么回事吧。
You wanna be even halfway decent.
结果呢，这本书的发行被拖慢了。
And what ended up happening in that case was distribution got hamstrung.
我其实有点预料到，毕竟这是一本书。
I expected some of it because it was a book.
这是当时刚刚起步的亚马逊出版公司买下的最大一部作品。
It was the largest title that had been acquired by the then very nascent Amazon Publishing.
因为大家某种程度上确实害怕亚马逊——那个无所不能、掌控一切的巨头，尤其是在发行渠道上。现在亚马逊出版居然要跟老牌出版社抢作者资源。
And because people, in some ways, rightly fear Amazon as this omnipowerful, you know, omnipotent entity that controls all of these different aspects of, in most cases, distribution, but now Amazon Publishing was gonna be competing with the big publishing houses for author talent.
对啊。
Mhmm.
这把所有人都吓坏了。
And this scared the hell out of everybody.
所以我猜可能会有巴诺书店的抵制行动。
So I expected that there would be, say, boycotts by Barnes and Noble.
但我真没料到，连所有大型连锁零售商都会参与进来，而且范围还更广。
I did not anticipate it would include all the big box retailers and much more.
所以这本书吧，我倒不觉得是烂在手里了，毕竟它已经做到了能做的最好程度。
So the book basically I don't wanna say it died on the vine because it did as well as it could have.
但与此同时，这部分我其实聊得不多。
But at the same time, roughly, this is the part I haven't talked as much about.
我那时候一直在拍，然后在2013年推出了《蒂姆·费里斯实验》。
I had been filming and then debuted in 2013, The Tim Ferriss Experiment.
《蒂姆·费里斯实验》每周都做各种实验，你懂的，当时是通过一家叫Upwave的初创公司内部直播的。
And The Tim Ferriss Experiment had me doing these experiments, as you might expect, on a weekly basis, And that was through a startup with internal broadcasting called Upwave.
但Upwave内部问题一堆。
But there were all these problems internally at Upwave.
最后这项目直接黄了。
Ultimately, that got shut down.
公司换了管理层，接下来呢？
There was a regime change, and then what happens?
要是节目成功了，新领导层捞不着功劳；要是搞砸了，锅全得他们背。
The catalog of episodes, if it succeeds, the new leadership's not gonna get any credit, and if it goes poorly, they're gonna get all the blame.
所以节目直接被锁死了，我花了两三年才把版权要回来，然后自己在Apple上发了，当时反响还挺不错的。
So it just got locked up, and it took me, like, two years or three years to get back the rights and then quote unquote self publish on Apple, and it did very well at the time.
但你刚才说的这一点太重要了。
But what you just said is so important.
我得特别强调一下，因为我一直觉得你提到的科林和萨米尔是顶尖的访谈主持人，尤其是在创作者经济和现代内容制作的细节方面，真的没谁了。
I wanna underscore it for people because I've heard you discuss wanna give a shout out to Colin and Samir, two of the best interviewers out there in my opinion, especially when it comes to creator economy and the nuts and bolts of making things in this modern era.
我真心想给他们应有的认可。
I really wanna give them due credit.
你跟他们聊过之后，我先插一句。
When you've had conversations, and I'm gonna talk for a second.
不好意思啊。
I apologize.
但当你跟那些传统媒体或者平台的人聊的时候，一说到你的制作周期，他们就会说：等等，这时间也太长了吧？
But when you've had conversations with some of these larger, let's call it traditional outlets or platforms, right, and you start to talk about your production schedule, they're like, well, wait a second.
你们花六个月、一年，甚至更久，他们觉得简直不可思议。
It takes you six months or a year or fill in the blank, in their mind, excessively long period of time.
能不能压缩到一周内做完？
Could we compress it into a week?
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Mhmm.
你特别巧妙地掌握了大部分内容的主导权。
And you have figured out very artfully how to have largely complete editorial control.
当然也有一些限制，比如跟合作伙伴、赞助商打交道的时候，得看你怎么处理。
There are some constraints, right, depending on how you wanna go about it with partners and sponsors and things like that.
但总的来说，你的日程和方向都由你说了算。
But largely, you control your schedule, your direction.
其实是完全由你掌控。
Actually, you do completely.
对吧？
Right?
你是根据自己的目标，主动选择了一些有利的限制。
You're choosing positive constraints depending on your objectives.
但蒂姆·费里斯那个实验最后变成这样：每个主题我们只有一周时间。
But what ended up happening with the Tim Ferriss experiment is like, okay, we have a week for each one.
对。
Right.
所以我穿着压缩裤，到处抹DMSO之类的玩意儿，因为上一集拍完伤得不轻，可那时候已经进后期了，紧接着还得赶路，马上又要开拍下一集。
And so I would be in compression pants and, like, putting on DMSO and all this crap because I had a ton of injuries from one episode, but we were already going into post, and then we'd have a day of travel, and then I'm starting the next episode.
这根本不可能做到。
And it was impossible.
身体上我真的到现在还受着那些伤的罪。
It was just physically, I'm still contending with injuries from that.
我们待会儿可以聊聊，跟你现在做的那些事做个对比。
We might talk about that with respect to some of the stuff that you're doing.
我特别想听听你的情况。
I wanna hear about it.
但当时有两个大问题。
But there were two issues.
对吧？
Right?
一方面是制作方面的控制问题，最后连发行都管不了。
There was the kind of production side control problem, and then ultimately didn't control distribution.
就因为这两件事，彻底压垮了我，我心想：去他的。
And for those reasons, those two straws that broke the camel's back, I was like, fuck this.
我之前用播客推过《四小时厨师》，那时候我就在想：嘿，不如……
And I'd used podcasts to launch The four Hour Chef, and I thought to myself, you know what?
我喜欢RSS订阅。
I like RSS feeds.
我喜欢这种想干嘛就干嘛、做自己的感觉。
I like this idea of being able to do whatever I want, be myself.
我想骂人就骂人。
If I wanna curse, I can curse.
当然了，骂人这事儿到底算不算艺术，可能也得看你在哪儿长大。
Not that that's ultimately I suppose it can be an art form in and of itself depending on where you grow up.
所以我们就这么走到今天了。
And that's how we ended up here today.
让我确认一下，你当时是拿自己当试验品在做《四小时厨师》？
Just so I understand, you were human guinea pigging Four Hour Chef.
对。
Yeah.
同时还在拍你的‘蒂姆·费里斯实验’。
And shooting Tim Ferriss experiment at the same time.
这两件事几乎是连着做的，中间肯定有重叠。
They were basically back to back, and there was probably some overlap.
我一边忙着完成《四小时厨师》，一边就开始做前期筹备，谁让我天生爱找罪受呢。
So I was doing preproduction while I was finishing Four Hour Chef because I'm a glun for punishment.
还没看过的人说一下，这是我第一本全彩书。
And for people who haven't seen that, it's my first four color book.
大概六七百页吧，原本有一千页左右，砍掉了一半。
It's something like 600, 700 pages cut down from like a thousand probably.
《四小时厨师》和我之前写的《四小时工作周》《四小时身体》最大的区别就在于，《四小时身体》那本，我是先把所有实验都做完了，吃透了，一点一点梳理清楚，才动笔写的。
And the absolute biggest difference between The four Hour Chef and the books that came before it, The four Hour Workweek and The four Hour Body, is that in the case of The four Hour Body, I did all of the experiments, then digested it all, combed through everything, and compiled the book.
但《四小时厨师》不一样，因为赶工期，我写前面章节的时候，后面实验还在继续做，这招太冒险了。
In the case of The Four Hour Chef, I was still, because of the deadline, doing a lot of the experiments as I was already beginning to write the earlier sections of the book, which is a very risky gambit.
更别说，我当时还觉得这主意挺棒的——虽然坑多得数不清。《四小时厨师》本身就是一个豪赌，尤其是从发行角度看，我早料到会被狠狠打脸。
And then on top of that, because I did not know, and I thought this was actually a good idea, although there were a lot of pitfalls, Because The four Hour Chef was a huge gamble, particularly from a distribution perspective, I expected I was going to get kneecapped in certain ways.
我就想，万一这书没火，至少大家还买我之前的账，毕竟我前一本书和博客都挺火的。
And I was like, well, if this doesn't work out the way I want it to, I still have the benefit of the doubt in the eyes of most people, and I can use the success of the prior book and the blog at that time.
你们还记得博客那会儿吗？
Remember blogs, people?
我想趁机把那点人气转成电视节目的机会。
To parlay that into the television.
所以我赶紧去谈合作，赶在《四小时厨师》正式出版前把合同签了，免得书一出来，大家对我没信心了，我连谈条件的资本都没了。
So I was like, let me get the deal before The Four Hour Chef fully comes out, so that I have the leverage that might become a question mark once it's published.
说实话，这世上能真懂你当时有多拼的人，恐怕没几个。
For those of you, I feel like there are so few people in the world who can truly empathize with what you put yourself through.
我想到摩根·斯普尔洛克了。
I'm thinking of Morgan Spurlock.
对。
Yeah.
他才是我们这种事儿真正的开创者。
The true pioneer of whatever it is we are doing.
愿他安息，天哪。
And rest in peace, my gosh.
大卫·布莱恩。
David Blaine.
是啊。
Yeah.
这人我也马上就想到了。
It's another that comes to mind.
很多人看你的内容，或者看我的内容时，根本没意识到，这些都不是在真空中拍出来的。
And I think what people don't realize when they watch your content or even mine is that it's not filmed in a vacuum.
生活就在继续啊。
Life is happening.
就像你提到的，你去日本可不是为了五天之内学会Yabu Sami那么简单。
As you mentioned, it's not you're not just going to Japan to learn Yabu Sami for five days.
你还要倒时差，同时可能还得回邮件、回答问题，说下一期节目到底要拍啥。
You're struggling with a jet lag, and then you're also probably answering questions and emails about what next week's episode is going to entail.
这种专业水准，真的太被低估了。
And that is a level of professional athlete that is so unappreciated.
所以，真心谢谢你。
So Well, thank you.
我特别能理解这一点。
I much empathize with that.
是啊，我懂。
I yeah.
我真的很感激。
I really appreciate that.
但我们刚才在聊决定的事。
But we were talking about decisions.
决定。
Decisions.
对。
Yeah.
所以是关于决定，然后我们再倒着回溯时间线。
So decisions, and then we're gonna go back chronologically.
好的。
Okay.
谢谢你刚才说的那些。
Like, then thank you for saying all that.
我一开始写东西的时候，其实是参考了一些前辈的经验式记者的做法。
And I was also building initially the the writing side of things based on, in some ways, models from, let's call it, experiential journalism who came before me.
这种人还真不少。
And there were quite a few.
通常呢，都会带点讽刺或者幽默的调调。
Usually, it was done with some type of satirical or humor twist.
对吧？
Right?
比如AJ·雅各布斯，要是你不知道这个人，他就是个绝佳的例子。
Like AJ Jacobs would be a great example for people who don't know.
《一年活在圣经里》这本书简直太棒了。
The the year of living biblically, think is an amazing amazing book.
我几个月前见过他，就跟他说：你得再搞一次，拍成YouTube视频。
I met him a couple months ago, and I said, you need to do that again and make it a YouTube video.
那绝对炸裂。
It would bang.
他本人特别友善。
He is such a sweet guy.
摩根·斯普尔洛克，可能有人没听过这名字，但肯定看过《超大号美式》。
Morgan Spurlock, for people who might not have recognized the name, immediately supersize me.
这简直是在打破类型、重新定义类别的实验，还有很多早期从写作角度就开始这么干的人。
Really a sort of a genre breaking, category redefining experiment, and many more who came earlier from a writing perspective.
就是说……
Just
先简单感谢一下我们的赞助商，马上回来继续节目。
a quick thanks to our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show.
过去二十年里，我合作过的创始人和创业者超过一百位，见过不少大获成功的案例，也见过一些巨无霸公司崛起，当然还有不少失败的和苟延残喘的。
I've easily worked with 100 plus founders and entrepreneurs over the last twenty years, and I've seen some massive wins, some huge companies built, and some failures and zombies.
我反复看到的一点是，客户服务能彻底成就一家公司，也能直接把它拖垮。
Among other things, repeatedly, I've seen how customer service can make or break a company.
这时候就轮到Finn出场了，F-I-N。
This is where Finn comes in, f I n.
Finn是个AI助手，现在这词儿被用得挺泛的。
Fin is an AI agent, and people throw it around a lot.
但在这儿，你就把它当成一个数字员工就行了。
In this context, think of it as a digital employee.
Finn这个数字员工能提供高质量的回答，帮你解决客户提出的复杂问题。
And Fin, your digital employee, delivers high quality answers and helps resolve complex questions that your customers may have.
很多知名品牌都在用Finn。
And a lot of name brand companies use Finn.
像Asana、Anthropic（Claude背后的公司）这样的快速成长企业，还有以前的节目赞助商Gamma和Vanta，都靠Finn为数百万客户和用户提供精准又贴心的客服支持。
Rapidly growing companies like Asana and Anthropic, the company behind Claude, and past podcast sponsors like Gamma and Vanta rely on Finn to deliver accurate and thoughtful customer support to millions of customers and users.
Finn是用成千上万次真实客户对话训练出来的定制模型，对客户服务的复杂性和细微之处，它比任何其他代理都更懂。
Finn is also built using custom models trained on thousands of actual customer interactions, and it understands the complexity and nuance of customer service like no other agent.
它具体是怎么做的呢？
This is what it does.
你把公司内部的知识库和政策喂给Finn，它就会学懂你的规则，然后帮你分担那些忙到爆的客服团队的工作。
You feed Finn your internal knowledge and policies, it learns your rules, and it can start supporting your overstretched support team.
它就像是你团队的延伸。
It's an extension.
某种程度上，它能让你的客服团队无限扩展。
It's, in a way, infinitely extensible of your support team.
而且因为每家公司的运营方式都不一样，Fin 完全可以自己管理。
And because every business runs things differently, Fin is fully self manageable.
你不妨亲自看看。
So check it out.
看看 Fin 能给你的业务带来什么改变。
See the difference Fin can make in your business.
去 fin.ai/tim 体验一下，了解更多详情。
Check it out and learn more at fin.ai/tim.
就是 fin.ai/tim。
That's fin.ai/tim.
大多数美国人——你们当中很多人在听，我猜海外情况也差不多——根据一些研究，大约95%的人都没达到每日推荐的膳食纤维摄入量。
Most Americans, that's a lot of you people listening and certainly overseas, I suspect it's similar, roughly 95% according to some studies do not meet the recommended daily fiber intake.
你可能觉得，纤维嘛，不就是帮人通便的吗？
Fiber, you might think, well, that's about staying regular.
但实际上，纤维可以说是日常健康和健身中最被忽视的‘超级营养素’之一。
But in fact, fiber is one of the most overlooked metanutrients, I would say, for everyday health and fitness.
它能帮助消化，稳定血糖，还能滋养那些影响你生活方方面面的肠道有益菌。
It supports digestion, helps keep blood sugar stable, and feeds critical gut bacteria that affect nearly every aspect of life.
所以过去两年里，纤维是我反复研究、不断尝试的最重要的关键点之一。
This is why fiber is actually one of the levers that I've revisited and pulled and experimented with the most in the last two years.
而本集赞助商Momentous推出的Momentous Fiber Plus，让补充纤维变得特别简单。
And Momentous Fiber Plus from this episode sponsor, Momentous, makes it easy.
它通过三种成分呵护你的肠道：可溶性纤维、不可溶性纤维，还有抗性淀粉。
It sports your gut via three sources, soluble fiber, insoluble fiber, and resistant starch.
不管是加到水里、奶昔里、燕麦粥还是酸奶里，都能轻松搅匀，而且有原味和天然肉桂味两种选择。
It mixes smoothly into water, smoothies, oatmeal or yogurt, whatever, and comes unflavored or in a natural cinnamon.
我甚至故意大量服用原味的，就想看看会不会难喝或者结块。
And I megadosed the unflavored just to see if it would be gross or get clumpy.
结果一点都没有。
It didn't.
完美无瑕。
It was perfect.
超级简单。
Super easy.
但你知道吗？
But you know what?
肉桂味还挺带劲的。
The cinnamon has a nice kick to it.
我超爱肉桂。
I love cinnamon.
和所有Momentous的产品一样，Fiber Plus也通过了NSF运动认证。
And like every Momentous product, fiber plus is NSF certified for sport.
标签上写的是啥，里面就是啥。
So what's on the label is what's in the product.
一点花里胡哨的东西都没有。
No hidden nonsense.
如果你在调整饮食但缺纤维，这个办法特别省事。
If you're dialing in your nutrition but lacking fiber, this is a simple fix.
来，看一下。
So check it out.
在 livemomentous.com/tim 用优惠码 Tim，首订立减 35%。
Get 35% off of your first subscription with code Tim at livemomentous.com/tim.
再强调一遍，详情请访问 livemomentous.com/tim。
One more time, learn more at livemomentous.com/tim.
就是 livemomentous。
That's livemomentous.
live 加 momentous，像 moment 一样，后面加 ous，点 com。
That's live, and then momentous,likemoment,ous,.com.
livemomentous.com/tim。
Livemomentous.com/tim.
我特别想跟大家聊聊这个，可能会有点深入，但咱们一会儿再拉回来，把整个来龙去脉说清楚。
So what I would love to know, and this is gonna get in the weeds a bit guys, but we're going to zoom out and get the Genesis story as well.
但让我特别好奇的是，你某种程度上正经历着‘自由带来的眩晕’。
But part of what I'm so curious about is you have in some ways the dizziness of freedom.
对吧？
Right?
你面临的是选择悖论——没有一点限制，如果没有一套方法来理清头绪，可能跟限制太多一样让人崩溃。
You have a paradox of choice challenge where having complete lack of constraints can be almost as bad if you don't have a framework for figuring it out as having too many constraints.
所以当你同时处理好几件事的时候，据我理解，你可能正在同时搞两三个项目。
So when you have things running concurrently, right, you might, as I understand it, be working on, like, two or three challenges at the same time.
对吧？
Right?
你可能在做其中一个的后期，另一个在做策划，第三个还在中间卡着。
You're doing post production for one, maybe you're doing planning for another, and you're in the middle of a third.
首先，你们的节目排期一般提前多久规划？
First of all, how far in advance do you plan your editorial calendar?
《挑战接受》这个节目的排期，从想法到上传，一般要提前十二到十五个月。
The editorial calendar for Challenge Accepted can be anywhere from twelve to fifteen months out from idea to upload.
举个例子，有天我得去参加宇航员训练，因为我们那期要做NASA的内容。
And an example of concurrent things happening would be there was one day where I had to do astronaut training for our NASA episode.
所以我一早起来，就跑到加州荒郊野外坐上了战斗机，飞来飞去，完全不知道自己惹上了什么麻烦。
So naturally, I began my day by going up in a fighter jet in the middle of nowhere in California, flying around, having no idea what I was getting myself into.
希望你吃了止吐药。
Hope you took your Zofran.
吐了。
Threw up.
对啊。
Yep.
天哪。
Wow.
这才对嘛。
There we go.
这才对嘛。
There we go.
我从飞机里出来了。
I exited the plane.
我们把那段拍摄结束了。
We finished filming that.
我上了车，开了三个小时回洛杉矶，然后去上芭蕾课。
I got in my car, drove three hours back to Los Angeles, and had a ballet lesson.
我觉得确实如此。
I think that Yeah.
这其实很好地展现了普通人一天的生活，尤其是同时训练好几样东西的状态。
Like, it's just a a good window into what one day of life is like and often training for multiple things at once.
但当你拥有这样的条件和特权——能自由选择怎么花时间，我就想把每一年的产出最大化。这其实源于我早年悟到的一点：你经历的里程碑式回忆越多，生命就越显得漫长。
But when you have a situation and a privilege, honestly, of the gift of choice and getting to choose how you use your time, I like to maximize my output for each year as far as it really comes down to something that I learned early, which is the more milestone memories you experience, the longer life feels.
没错。
For sure.
我后来意识到，这和我的事业是相辅相成的。
And I've realized that that goes hand in hand with my business.
我创造并记录下的里程碑式回忆越多，转化成的故事就越精彩，节目也就越有料。
The more milestone memories I create and can capture and turn into stories, it actually is a better episode.
这能带来更多的收入和机会。
It it leads to more revenue, more opportunities.
所以我把这两者融合在一起了。
And so I've sort of merged those together.
但根源在于，我是个运动员。
But it comes from I am an athlete.
我就是这样的人：你给我教练，给我训练计划，我就会照着做。
I am a person who operates in an environment where you give me a coach, you give me a training plan, I'll follow it.
你说怎么做，我就怎么做，这种环境我才最能发挥。
I'll do exactly what you tell me to, and I really thrive in that environment.
可当老板完全相反——你得同时当教练和运动员。
And being a business owner is such an oppositional to that because now you are both the coach and the athlete at the same time.
所以我现在做的，是借用我一个朋友的说法，给自己配了一支F1车队。
And so what I've had to do is, and I'm stealing this term from one of my other friends, is put a Formula One team around myself.
对。
Mhmm.
就像F1车队，我们都特别喜欢马克斯·维斯塔潘。
A Formula One team, you know, we love Max Verstappen.
他是个超棒的车手，但要不是有一整个机械师和工程师团队在背后支持，他根本做不到这些。
He's an incredible driver, and he's not able to do what he does without the support of all of the mechanics and engineers.
所以我这一路走来，每一步都在找最顶尖的人围绕在自己身边，不管是事业、个人成长、人际关系，还是内容创作、讲故事，组好这个团队对我来说特别关键。
So what I have done at every step in my life is try to find who are the best people to put around myself to continually challenge me, whether it's business, personal, relationships, content, story, and assembling that team is really important to me.
就是这些人帮我决定一天中的每一分钟该怎么花。
Those are the people who help me decide how do I spend each minute of a calendar day.
咱们待会儿要深挖几个重点。
We're gonna double click on a few things here.
待会儿话题会跳得挺开的，各位。
And we're gonna go all over the place, folks.
所以我们现在啊——
So we're we're
准备好啦。
Buckle up.
系好安全带。
Buckle up.
没错。
Right.
这可不会像宇航员训练时的呕吐彗星那样颠得厉害。
It's not quite gonna be the vomit comet for astronaut training.
希望至少能有点儿意思吧。
Hopefully, it'll be a little Yes.
更像是一场乡村巡游，沿途有不少有趣的景点和风景。
It'll be more like a tour through the countryside with lots of interesting sites and vistas.
不过我脑子里冒出几件事，想提一提，也问问你的看法。
But a few things come to mind that I wanna mention and ask about.
第一点是，科林和斯梅尔都提到过，你其实就代表了一种我希望越来越多的人能重视的趋势——重质量，不重数量。
The first is that and Colin and Smear made this point, like, you sort of exemplify something that I hope continues to gain traction, which is a focus on quality over quantity.
以前不是有人老说嘛，你得一天发五十条才行。
Because there was a point where it's like, hey, you have to post 50 times a day.
你得这么做。
You have to do this.
你得那样做。
You have to do that.
不管干嘛，你都得每十二小时拍个二十分钟的Vlog。
You have to, like, vlog twenty minutes every twelve hours no matter what you do.
你把传统媒体里最棒的叙事手法和制作水准都搬过来了，用在这些数字原生的内容里——这当然有好处，但也藏着长期的坑，你得清醒着点，我觉得你确实挺清醒的。
And you're borrowing a lot of the best storytelling techniques and production quality of quote unquote traditional, but also applying it to this sort of digital native environment, which has a lot of its own upsides and also potentially long term damaging temptations, which you have to be aware of, and I think you very much are.
不过你发得少，虽然不是所有方面都这样，但在某些层面，你其实是在跟算法对着干，毕竟很多人发视频，背后都是冲着流量和收益去的。
And when you're publishing fewer videos, however, not in all senses, but in some senses, you're kinda fighting the drive of the algorithm, and there are economic incentives that drive the frequency with which a lot of people publish.
对吧？
Right?
你做得少，当然，得给萨米尔点个赞——虽然你有一阵子没跟他聊了，但你至少能靠AdSense和广告收入撑着，再加上品牌合作，日子还是能过下去的。
So when you're doing less, and again, hat tip to call on Samir, it's like you are I want you to modify this because it's been a minute since you spoke with them, but you can keep the lights on, right, to some extent with, like, AdSense and the sort of ad revenue from that, then you've got brand partners.
所以你提前规划好内容日历挺有帮助的，这样你就能有条不紊地找那些合适的商业合作机会，不叫销售流程，但确实是个提前布局的事儿。
And that's part of the reason why it seems like it's helpful to have, like, an editorial calendar out for a period of time because you can have some type of I don't wanna call it sales process, but you have sort of forward looking thematic opportunities to look for those types of deals.
还有你的App，对吧，别的不说。
And then you've got your app, right, among other things.
我想听听你聊聊这个。
And I'd I'd like to hear you talk about that.
但当你想打破常规，做别人说做不到的事——比如把传统电视搬上互联网——你就得另辟蹊径，找到新的融资方式。
But when you're going to break a mold and you're trying to do something that people say can't be done, like traditional TV on the Internet, right, or whatever it might be, you may have to find a new approach to financing what you wanna do.
所以我特别想听你说说，为了做成你想做的事，你到底搭建了什么，又得怎么换种思路来思考。
And so I'd love to hear you speak for just a moment about kind of what you have had to build and how you've had to think differently in order to do what you wanna do.
然后我还想再回过头问你一下——当然你回答时顺带提一句也行——有些片子拍一天，有些拍一周，有的甚至要筹备半年、一年，你到底是怎么搞出甘特图之类的计划表的？
And then I want I do want to return to and you can mention this in your answer if you want, but when you have certain episodes that take a day to film, some that take a week, some that take six months, some that take a year to set up, How the hell do you create like a Gantt chart or whatever to actually do that?
我听说制作能力是你最大的强项。
And my understanding is like production is one of your superpowers.
对吧？
Right?
这简直是个半页纸的超大问题啊。
So that is a very gigantic half page question.
不过，你能说说你们到底是怎么做到的吗？
But, yeah, if you could speak to basically how you make it work.
我们是怎么做到的。
How we make it work.
对。
Right.
很多创作者其实都在被压力文化裹挟，总觉得得不停赶工、不停更新，光看发布频率。
Because a lot of creators, I think, are succumbing to the culture of cortisol drive, where they feel like they have to keep up, keep up, keep up often in terms of just frequency.
我觉得这种玩法风险太大了，原因很多。
And I think that's a really dangerous game to play for a lot of reasons.
总有人愿意拿命换更新速度，牺牲一切也要发得更勤快。
Somebody else is always gonna be able to sacrifice or be willing to sacrifice their entire lives to publish more frequently.
所以你不能把发布频率当唯一标准。
So that can't be your sole metric.
那你们到底是怎么做的？
So how do you, yeah, how do you do what you do?
你得怎么换个思路，换个做法？
How do you have to think differently, operate differently?
我们是怎么不一样地做的？
How do we operate differently?
我们的做法跟大多数创作者完全相反。
Our business is super antithetical to what most creators are doing.
我刚开始的时候，也跟你讲的那样，每周发好几条长视频。
And I started in that place that you're referring to, uploading multiple long form videos a week.
那时候连TikTok都还没出现，全是发长视频。
I mean, I was uploading before TikTok existed, so it was all long form.
后来短视频才冒出来。
Then, of course, short form came along.
我刚入行的时候，一心想着涨粉，好赚点钱，过上安稳日子。
But what happened at the beginning of my career was I was trying to grow my channel to create financial and personal stability.
我可是辞了工作，冒了挺大一个险。
I had taken a big risk by leaving my job.
作为这部分的一部分，最初的目标其实是某种意义上的稳定。
And as a part of that, the first entry point was stability in some sense.
所以我拍任何我觉得能火的视频，当然还是带着我自己的视角。
So I was making videos about anything I thought would perform well and still with my own lens, of course.
但我给自己定了个策略：每个月为‘工作室’拍三条视频——‘工作室’这个词来自传统影视圈，大导演拍完一部大片后，制片厂会允许他拍个自己想做的项目。
But I would have this strategy of I'm gonna do three videos a month for the studio, if you will, which is a term from traditional TV and film where a big director will do a big blockbuster movie, and then the studio will allow them to do their passion project.
我就这么对自己，每个月抽一天拍个真心想做的项目。
So I I would do that for myself, or once a month, I would do a passion project.
刚起步的时候，我会私信汤姆·霍兰德的替身演员这类特技演员，问他们：‘你愿意跟我一起训练一周吗？’
And at the beginning of my channel, it was I would DM stunt performers like Tom Holland's stunt double And asked them, would you train with me for a week?
然后我们能不能一起拍个视频？
And and can we make a video together?
这挺酷的，因为我们瞄准的是一些常被忽视、没人关注的群体。
And it was cool because we were targeting communities that were undervalued and unseen often.
很多特技演员其实根本不能公开自己的工作。
I mean, many stunt performers aren't allowed to share their work.
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所以给他们机会展示自己的工作，对他们来说很有帮助，也让他们特别兴奋。
And so giving them an opportunity to highlight their work was helpful to them and exciting for them.
对我自己来说也特别过瘾，因为我超想学会这些酷炫的特技，还顺便拍出个精彩的故事来。
And exciting for me selfishly because I wanna learn how to do all these incredible stunts and make an amazing story about it.
我当时发现了个市场机会——你看那些电影的幕后花絮，通常都挺……
And I saw a market opportunity because when you see BTS stuff from movies, it's very
幕后花絮。
Behind the scenes.
对。
Yeah.
幕后花絮。
Behind the scenes.
不好意思，我重复了。
My apologies.
你看那些大制作漫威电影的幕后内容，都剪得特别精致，而且特别短。
When you see behind the scenes content from big Marvel movies, very manicured and very short.
是的
Yeah.
我真的很想给这个实验性过程留出足够的空间和余地。
And I really wanted to give space and breathability to this experimental process.
结果呢，这些充满热情的项目反而超出了我原本预期会表现不错的那些内容。
And what ended up happening is those passion projects started outperforming the things I expected to just perform well.
后来我发现自己资源有限，连时间都快不够用了，没法再继续做更多这类热情驱动的项目。
And it got to this point where I was limited resource wise, just like my own time even, of being able to do more of that passion thing.
最后我们团队一致决定，就专心做《挑战接受》这一个项目了。
And I just decided we decided as a team, we're only gonna focus on Challenge Accepted.
咱们就先试试这个吧。
Let's just try that
《挑战接受》这名字是什么时候定的？
for a few When did it get named Challenge Accepted?
《挑战接受》这名字是在这个项目成型之后才起的。
It got named Challenge Accepted after Challenge Accepted existed.
所以当你回头去看《Challenge Accepted》第一季的时候，那已经是很久以前的事了，我们后来给它起这个名字，其实就是一拍脑袋：哦，对啊。
So when you go back and look at season one of Challenge Accepted, which is a while ago now, I think we went back and named it that because we're like, oh, yeah.
这可是这个节目的起点，想想真好笑。
This was the beginning of this show, which is so funny.
那时候我们在频道里干了好多事儿，最后决定把其他全砍了，就专心做这个。
But we were doing many things on the channel, and we decided to strip away everything and only go in on that.
这事儿才真正成了频道的转折点。
And that is where a true inflection point came on the channel.
说实话，蒂姆，你刚才问关键决策，我觉得吧。
I would honestly say, Tim, you were asking earlier about key decisions.
我人生里好多转折点，都是被逼到墙角才发生的。
I think a lot of the inflection points of my life have happened when my back has been against the wall.
不是那种‘我可以选’的从容，而是‘我不选，全得崩’的逼迫。
Not in a a place of I get to make a decision, but more like I have to make a decision because everything's going to break if I don't.
当时做这个决定，其实挺冒险的。
And this was a risky decision to make.
全身心投入到一档节目里，一拍就是好几个月，这可是真敢赌。
To go all in on a show where I am physically committing myself for up to months at a time.
到2025年、2026年这时候，我们一年就出八到十集。
At this point in 2026, 2025, we release eight to 10 episodes per year.
这就是我更新的节奏。
That's my upload cadence.
所以每次更新，都像押上全部身家。
And so every opportunity is a big bet.
但后来我发现，当我这么干的时候，反而发生了更特别的事。
But what I have found is that when I did that, something even more special happened.
它创造出了独一无二的东西。
It created something unique.
我发现，定义出独一无二的东西，比一味追求稳定更新或者爆款流量更有价值。
And I have found that defining something unique can be even more valuable than consistency or mass viewership.
我们挺幸运的，《Challenge Accepted》确实收获了很多观看，我们也对自己在这些剧集上的投入充满信心。
We're very blessed that Challenge Accepted does get a lot of views, and we feel strong about the bets that we make on these episodes.
但我发现，只要做出点特别的东西，反而会吸引更多人愿意支持我们。
But I have found that creating something special attracts even more people to want to support it.
所以现在我们频道里反而出现了一种广告商的稀缺心态——想上《挑战接受》？只有十期名额。
And so now what we ironically have on the channel is a scarcity mindset for advertisers that if you wanna be in an episode of Challenge Accepted, there are 10.
火车已经开了。
The train's going.
你是要上车，还是打算错过？
Are you getting on or are you getting off?
毕竟我们的广告位就这么多。
Because we only have so much inventory to sell.
正因稀缺，我们才能卖得贵，也让我们的内容变得独一无二。
We're able to sell it at a premium, and it makes what we're doing so one of one.
这一直是我最核心的理念：我们做的每一件事，都必须是独一无二的。
And that's always been my, like, big thesis is whatever we do has to be one of one.
对。
Yeah.
你这么一说，我脑子里冒出几件事，比如，拥有或创造一个全新品类特别重要。
A few things come to mind as as you're talking, you know, one is the importance of owning or creating, even better yet, a category.
像‘蓝海战略’这种概念，我十年前读的时候觉得挺有启发的，虽然现在看可能有点老了。
So this category of one idea, blue ocean strategy, I think, is a good at least at the time I read it, which was a long time ago, ten years ago, pretty good exploration of this.
不过现在回头看看整个行业，很多人问我做播客的事。
But separately, as I look at the landscape now, I've had a lot of people ask me about podcasting.
如果你现在从零开始，你会怎么搞？
If you were to start now, what would you do?
我当然能举几个例子说说我可能会怎么做，但要是从更高层面来看，我觉得我现在根本没法复制我2014年干的那套——就是用访谈形式拆解顶尖高手的模式。
And I could throw out sort of examples of what I might do, but just from a broader kind of meta level, I say, I think it would be very difficult for me to do now or start now what I started in 2014, which was kind of a broad exploration of deconstructing world class performers in an interview format.
现在这种节目都快有六百个了。
Now there are 600 of those.
如果你想做可持续的、能卖高价的项目——不是说非得这么讲，但从合作、CPM这些角度看，我最想模仿的就是你们这样的节目，虽然我本人对出镜有点怵，估计不会先做视频，但方向就是你们这种。
And if you want something that is sustainable, and this is not exactly the way right way to frame it, but premium from a partnership perspective, from a CPM perspective, from a whatever perspective, the best examples that I would try to model are shows like yours, although I'm not really I'm kind of shy with video, so I probably wouldn't do video first, but it it would be a show like yours.
要说我现在二十岁，我肯定就想做这样的节目。
I mean, if I were 20 right now, I'd be like, that's what I wanna do.
我的理想工作，就是米歇尔现在干的这份工作。
Like, if I could if I could have a job, it would be Michelle's job.
天哪。
Oh, my god.
说实话，那确实是我想要的，但如果你想找些别的例子，我可能就不会去做了，不过人家做得真不错。
I mean, honestly, it would be but if you wanna look at some other examples where I probably wouldn't pursue it, but they're doing excellent jobs.
比如《Acquired》这个节目，创始人大卫·森拉，主题特别聚焦，都是长访谈，根本没法复制——太他妈费劲了。
Acquired, for instance, founders, you know, David Senra, highly focused, long form, very hard to replicate because there's so much goddamn work.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Yes.
这事儿吧
Which is
你那儿也是这样。
true with yours also.
对。
Mhmm.
你居然想花六个月做一条视频？
It's like, oh, you wanna spend six months making a video?
咱们来瞧瞧。
Like, let's let's see.
频繁发布内容其实更容易，不用太纠结那些特别复杂的事情要花多久准备。
It's a lot easier to publish frequently without thinking as hard about the lead time of doing something that's very complex.
挑战接受这个项目也是这么规划的，你看到网上不管哪种艺术形式，人都在互相模仿。
And that was part of the strategy with Challenge Accepted too is you see many people copying one another online in any form of art.
是啊。
Yeah.
人家天天都在抄。
People are copying constantly.
所以我们防御策略的一部分就是：怎么搞点特别疯的？
And part of our defensive strategy was how do we do something that is so crazy?
我觉得，没人会疯到在一周内跑完七大洲的七场马拉松，还拍个纪录片，折腾这一大堆制作上的麻烦事。
No one would be crazy enough, I don't think, to run seven marathons on all seven continents in one single week and make a documentary about it and go through all of the production headache of that.
或者为了复刻《碟中谍》的桥段，打电话给联邦航空局三百次，就为了获准吊在军机外面。
Or call the FAA 300 times to get permission to hang off the side of a military plane to recreate the Mission Impossible stunt.
对啊。
Right.
那些看起来根本不可能做到的事，反而一下子成了绝佳的故事素材——因为挑战并战胜它们本身就很精彩。
It's almost like the things that feel so untouchable instantly become opportunities for story because it's a great story to try and overcome that.
而且，等别人想模仿我们，也得花上好久才能追上来。
And also, the second mover scenario will at least take them so long to catch up to us to get there.
没错。
Right.
因为你就是那个标杆。
Because you're gonna be the comp.
他们一看到，就会说：哦，这玩意儿跟《Challenge Accepted》差不多，就是……有点不一样。
They're gonna say, oh, it's like Challenge Accepted, but dot dot dot.
对啊。
And Mhmm.
这确实会让其他人很难超越。
That is gonna be very difficult for other people to overcome.
我想再深入聊聊这个，因为我觉得这太关键了，你在很多地方都能看到这种现象。
And I wanna explore this a little bit more because it's, I think, so critical, and you see it in a lot of different places.
有时候，最难的路，反而是长远来看最轻松的。
Sometimes the hard thing is the easier thing long term.
意思是，如果你一开始就解决了特别难的问题，以后的日子就会轻松不少，甚至轻松很多。
Meaning, if you solve a very hard problem upfront, it makes your life a little easier or a lot easier long term.
这种道理到处都适用。
And this applies everywhere.
对吧？
Right?
有个特别厉害的人。
There's a amazing amazing guy.
你一定要见见他。
You should meet him at some point.
好。
Okay.
杰尔齐·格雷戈雷克和他的妻子安吉拉·格雷戈雷克。
Jerzy Gregorek and his wife, Angella Gregorek.
他们是波兰移民。
They're Polish emigres.
他们刚到美国的时候，身上就带着十几块、最多一百美元。
They they immigrated to The US with, like, 10 or $100 in their pocket.
他们是政治难民，落脚在加州。
They were political refugees, landed in California.
直到今天，他们俩还保持着多项奥运举重的世界纪录。
And still to this day, they both have multiple world records in Olympic weightlifting.
他俩都六十多岁了，但杰尔齐能站在平衡板上，背上满负荷的杠铃，完美完成一个抓举——从臀部到脚跟，然后稳稳放下杠铃，再重复一遍，整个人还稳稳站在板子上不倒。
And I would say they're both around mid sixties, and Jerzy can get on an Indo board, like a balance board, with a fully loaded barbell and do a perfect Olympic snatch, like ass to heels, and then drop the weight and repeat while balancing on a board.
他现在至少得有六十五了吧。
He's gotta be at least 65 now.
他妻子安雅拉，我也提过，拿过好多世界纪录。
His wife, Anyela, who also, as I mentioned, has a bunch of world records.
几年前她女儿的球卡在树上了，她直接爬上去拿下来，又爬下来。
Her daughter's, I guess, ball got caught in a tree a few years ago, and she just like ran up the tree and got it and came down.
我的天，他们真是身体素质超群。
I mean, they are incredible physical specimens.
他们从来不吃任何处方药。
They take no prescription medications.
我提起他们，是因为杰尔齐有句名言：艰难的选择带来轻松的人生，轻松的选择带来艰难的人生。
And the reason I'm bringing them up is that Jerzy has this expression, which is hard choice is easy life, easy choice is hard life.
这道理在健身和健康上特别适用。
And so so it applies in physical training and health.
放诸四海而皆准，不管是搞创作还是别的事儿。
It applies in creation, broadly speaking.
这跟你现在做的事是一样的。
It's like with what you're doing.
对吧？
Right?
你正在打造一个在很多方面都很难被攻破的护城河。
You're creating a moat that is very defensible in a lot of ways.
这在创业中也一样，比如说，没错。
It applies to startups where it's like, okay, sure.
没错。
Yeah.
你确实可以随便写写代码，二十分钟就搞出个东西，挺有意思的，也值得去试试。
You can vibe code and create something in twenty minutes, and that's interesting and you should experiment with that.
现在做一款应用的技术门槛是低多了，但获取关注的门槛却从来没这么高过。
And the barrier to entry has been lower dramatically on the production of say an app, but the barrier to attention has never been higher.
所以，真正难的创业反而可能更容易成功——如果你在解决一个需要顶尖团队、硬件支持，还有各种复杂条件的难题，大多数人根本连试都不敢试。
Therefore, like, there is actually something to be said for the hard startup being the easier startup where if you're solving a hard problem that requires a really good team and, like, hardware and this, that, and the other thing, most people are never going to attempt it.
所以，只要你能执行到位，实际上你就有了某种程度的安全垫。
Therefore, you actually have a margin of safety in some respect if you can execute.
我之所以提这个，是因为我经常看到，如果你 upfront 花时间啃硬骨头，后面会省下很多麻烦。
So I I just wanted to mention that because I I see this all over the place where if you spend the time to work on something hard up front, it buys you a lot of safety.
至少这是我看待这个问题的一种方式。
This at least one way that I think about it.
你之前也提到过，要组建一支F1车队。
And you've talked about assembling this Formula One team.
是的。
Yeah.
但咱们先倒回去说。
But let's rewind.
对吧？
Right?
我猜肯定有人会想：我没钱，刚起步，哪来的钱请F1车队啊？
Because I'm sure some people are like, well, if I don't have any money and I'm just getting started, how do you afford to hire the Formula One team?
听起来挺贵的。
That sounds expensive.
咱们稍微往回说一点。
So let's go back a little bit.
你在开始做YouTube之前，都在干嘛呢？
Before you became active on YouTube, what were you doing?
我干嘛了？
What was I doing?
是啊。
Yeah.
天哪。
Gosh.
我是在什里夫波特长大的。
So I grew up in Shreveport.
对。
Mhmm.
我在那儿第一次接触到了电影行业。
Got my first taste of the film industry there.
我后来去了达特茅斯上大学。
I went to college at Dartmouth.
上大学期间，我还去上了好学校。
And then while I was in college, I did Good school.
是的。
Yeah.
那段时间特别棒。
It was great.
上大学时，我除了在行业里实习，还去谷歌实习过。
And while I was in college, I did some internships in the industry, but I also did an internship at Google.
在那里，我大概第一次看到了现在我上传内容的这个平台背后的运作，特别有意思。
And so there, I sort of saw the behind the scenes of the platform, I guess, I upload to now, which was really interesting.
就像我之前跟你说的，蒂姆，我人生中很多关键转折点，都是在我被逼到墙角的时候发生的。
And as I was mentioning to you, Tim, a lot of things that have driven key moments in my life have been moments when my back has been against the wall.
我人生中有一个这样的时刻，就是你做谷歌实习的时候——我其实没怎么提过这事，但到了夏天结束时，像很多大公司一样，你会知道能不能留下来正式工作。
And one of those moments for me was when you do a Google internship I don't think I've like talked about this much, but when you do a Google internship at the end of the summer, like many big internship, you find out if you get the job.
对。
Mhmm.
你可能会带着这种心态进入大四：天啊，我稳了。
And you can go into your senior year of college like, oh my gosh, I'm rocking.
我拿到offer了。
I got the job.
我彻底安心了。
I'm set.
最后一年可以躺平了。
I can chill out last year.
有一天，他们给整个实习班的人打电话，通知大家有没有被录用。
And there was one day where they called everybody from my internship class, letting them know if they got the job.
我们当时有个大群，大家都在刷：我拿到了！
And we're all in a big text chain together, and everyone's like, I got it.
明年见。
See you next year.
啰啰嗦嗦的。
Blah blah blah.
我买了iPhone，但没拿到offer。
Get my I phone didn't get the job.
是啊。
Yeah.
现在回想起来，这件事特别关键，也特别讽刺——因为我如今在YouTube上混得风生水起，完全走上了另一条路。
And I would say that this was pivotal and ironic now that I'm so embedded in YouTube in a completely different way.
但这件事逼着我开始反思：我这一辈子，作为运动员，总是找教练，然后百分百照着他们的指示做。
But what it forced me to do was my whole life had been about as an athlete, finding a coach, doing exactly what they tell me to do.
在学校里，老师说：‘这些书是备考SAT的必备资料。’
In school, it was here are all the books to do well on the SAT.
我就乖乖去读。
I will do them.
夏天我五点就起床，把所有东西都背下来，照着做，因为这就是所谓的标准流程
I will wake up at five in the morning over the summer and memorize everything and do it because that's the formula
通往成功的路子。
to success.
按计划执行。
Executing to plan
按套路来。
on formula.
我觉得这跟移民家庭的思维有关，总觉得医生、律师、工程师是铁饭碗，因为这些是能带来安全感的路径。
And I think it's part of the immigrant mentality of the holy trinity of doctor, lawyer, engineer is because those are systems for safety.
而且像我们家这样的移民家庭，对不稳定的生活有多可怕，那是刻在骨子里的。
And also from my family, like with many immigrant families, they know so intimately what instability feels like.
所以我就一路走到了 BuzzFeed，那其实是我第一次真正为自己冒险。
And so that led me on the course that eventually led me to BuzzFeed, which was in many ways sort of the first creative risk I had taken on myself.
那时候，它是全球增长最快的YouTube频道。
And at the time, it was the fastest growing YouTube channel in the world.
你在 BuzzFeed 做的是什么工作？
What was the job that you had at BuzzFeed?
我一开始还是实习生，后来成了 BuzzFeed 的制片人。
So I started as an intern again, And eventually, I became a producer at BuzzFeed.
‘制片人’这个词在传统行业里就够奇怪了，但在 BuzzFeed，它意思是什么都得干。
And producer is such a strange term even in traditional, but what it meant at BuzzFeed was doing everything.
从点子构思、拍摄、剪辑到上传，全是我一个人负责。
So I I I was responsible for everything from ideation to filming, editing, uploading.
可那时候我压根不会这些，虽然我爸在路易斯安那的自由港家里搞了个‘家庭版AFI电影学院’，还老拉着我拍，但那根本不够用。
And I didn't have any of those skills even though, you know, my homegrown Freeport, Louisiana, shout out Yvette Khare, my dad putting on his little AFI film school in our house.
那些家里的小把戏，根本应付不了我们实际要做的活儿。
It did not cut it for what we needed to do.
但我特别喜欢这一点：你必须亲手摸透每一个环节。
But what I loved about that was you had to learn every part of the process.
跟我在传统片场实习时不一样，那儿分工细得不得了。
Unlike when I interned on a traditional film set, it's very specialized.
那边有工会的。
There are unions.
你根本不能碰不属于你部门的设备。
You don't even touch equipment from a department that's not yours.
我见过这种情况。
I've seen that.
一不小心就会被骂。
You get yelled at.
确实会被骂，没错。
And you and you do get yelled at.
而且这么规定是有充分理由的。
And those are and there are great reasons for that.
但那种能边做边学的环境，对我特别重要。
But the learning environment was so important for me to learn.
你要是处理素材时手一抖，整个文件都可能被删光。
When you ingest footage, you can accidentally delete it all.
这真够糟的。
Like, that sucks.
我得把所有这些流程都学会，因为直到今天，我们现在有个超棒的团队，庞大的制作团队。
I needed to learn all of those processes because even today, now, we have an amazing team, a massive production team.
作为领导，能跟每个部门的人感同身受地聊上几句，真的很有帮助。
And it helps me as a leader to be able to empathetically chat with each department.
我们都待过那种公司或者片场，导演或CEO自己从来没干过手下人干的活。
We've all been at companies or on film sets where the director or CEO has never done the jobs of anyone that they're asking to do a job for.
我喜欢跟录音师聊天，至少能懂点基础的频率知识。
And I like being able to talk to the sound person in my basic understanding of what are the frequencies we're on.
这个布景有没有哪里干扰到你架吊杆的方式？需要调整吗？
Is there anything we need to adjust about this set that is disruptive to the way you have the boom pole set up?
我喜欢了解所有细节，能从每个部门的角度去思考，让大家都能干得顺心。
Like, I like knowing all of the details and being able to think critically about each department so everyone can succeed.
这问题可能有点引导性，但我还是想试试，反正试试无妨。
So this is gonna be a leading question, but I'm gonna try it I'm gonna try it anyway.
你觉得，要是你没在 BuzzFeed 工作过，而是直接从没拿到谷歌offer转去YouTube，结果会完全不同吗？
Do you think it's fair to say that if you had not had the BuzzFeed job and you'd gone straight from not getting the gig at Google to YouTube, that the outcome would have been very different?
差得不是一点半点。
Exponentially different.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得我根本不可能成功。
I don't think I would have succeeded.
是的。
Yeah.
就这么定了。
So Period.
我想花点时间聊聊这个，因为总有人问我怎么创业。
So I I wanna spend a second on this simply to say, because I get asked about starting companies all the time.
有人就说：‘我马上毕业了，打算直接开公司。’
And someone's like, I'm graduating and I'm gonna start my company.
我觉得他们有时候会很惊讶，很多教授也不认同我的观点，但这没关系，反而能让讨论更有意思。
And I think they're sometimes surprised, and a lot of professors disagree with me on this, which is fine because I think that makes for interesting conversations.
但我一贯的建议是：别一毕业就创业。
But my default recommendation is do not start a company right after school.
对。
Mhmm.
先去读个MBA，或者找个相关领域的硕士，让你能体验各种岗位，而且有人给你发工资。
Go get an MBA or a master's degree in x where you get to do every job where someone else is paying you for Exactly.
这样你才能真正学到什么叫‘有报酬的学习’。
So that you are learning pay graduates.
趁别人买单的时候，把你的傻错误都犯一遍，把第一轮蠢招都试个遍。
Learn make all your dumb mistakes or make your first massive round of dumb mistakes on someone else's dime.
对。
Mhmm.
如果你一毕业就自己创业，很可能也得不到那种更成熟公司的全面经验——我说的成熟，是指十人、二十人甚至三十人的公司。
And if you immediately start your own company, you're also not necessarily going to get the breadth of experience in a more mature and that by mature, that could be 10 or 20 or 30 employees.
不一定非得是家大公司。
It doesn't have to be a gigantic company.
但先去积累经验，等有了底气，再自己出来干，成功的几率就大得多。
But get that experience first, and then increase the odds of your own success at that point by going and starting your own gig.
我想知道，在YouTube这种领域，你觉得这还适用吗？我知道这么说有点笼统，但你就当是说YouTube吧。
And I'm curious if you think that still applies, for instance, in the world of and I know this is painting with a broad brush, but YouTube.
如果有人来找你，说我想在视频、娱乐和视觉叙事这方面做到顶尖，世界变化太快了。
If somebody came to you and they said, I wanna get really good at the world has changed so quickly in terms of video and entertainment and visual storytelling.
如果是创业，我还是会跟人说：嘿，如果你有条件，我知道我们现在都把十年后的世界想象成《疯狂的麦克斯》那样。
With a startup, I would still tell someone, hey, if you can, I know we're we're all painting this dystopian picture of Mad Max in ten years?
但咱们先别这么悲观，就当是为了规划，假设未来没那么糟。
Let's just, for the time being, for planning purposes, assume that's not gonna be the case.
先去初创公司干一阵子，再自己出来单干。
Work at a startup first, then start your own startup.
但在视觉叙事这个圈子里，你现在会建议人先去BuzzFeed这样的地方上班，积累经验，再跳去YouTube吗？还是说有别的更好的方式，来学做深度长视频的本事？
But in the world of visual storytelling, would you suggest people get a job kind of working at a place like a BuzzFeed or something like that before making the leap into YouTube now, or is there a better way to learn the skills necessary to do in-depth long form stuff?
我 definitely 认为，想在某个领域发展，先去别人公司干一段时间特别有收获。
I definitely think having experience working for someone else in the field that you want to be a part of is so educational.
不只是在邮件室里看看流程，更重要的是能搞清楚：你喜欢这家公司哪些地方，又讨厌哪些细枝末节。
Not just to be in the mail room and see how things work, but also to define a core tenant list of what you enjoy about the company and all the little things you don't like.
对。
Mhmm.
我离职的时候，心里特别清楚：这家公司这么做挺好，但等我自己干的时候，绝对不搞 x、y、z 这些玩意儿。
When I left my job, I had a very clear list of this worked great for this company, but at at my company, I'm never gonna do x, y, or z.
这对我塑造公司文化特别有帮助——让每个人的声音都被听见，员工留得住，积极性也高。
And that was super, super helpful to define company culture, to ensure people's voices are heard, to keep employee retention high.
所以咱们 Challenge Accepted 的团队运作方式才跟别人这么不一样。
And I think that's why with Challenge Accepted, our sets operate so differently.
每个人脑子里都装着一套标准：视频得这么拍才容易火，得认真琢磨留存率、片头设计这些事儿。
That everybody has a digital mind of we need to shoot it this way because it will perform well or we're thinking critically about retention and the intro and whatnot.
但同时我们也在想，讲故事这事儿，其实早就被玩透了。
But we're also thinking about storytelling as a medium has been solved.
传统的好莱坞确实有些地方做得很对，咱们得好好学学。
Traditional Hollywood, they clearly did something right, and let's learn from that.
其实就是每六个小时准时吃个午饭这么简单。
It's as simple as breaking for lunch every six hours.
就是确保前期会议安排得足够充分。
It's as simple as making sure we have enough preproduction meetings.
这些以前在我上一份工作里都是头疼的事，现在我能在挑战接受这个特别的环境里把它们落实下来——我们这儿文化超棒，工作氛围也特别好，大家都能自由表达创意、大胆尝试，同时不断学习。
And those are the things that were pain points for me at prior jobs, And I'm able to apply them in this really special space where we have an amazing, amazing culture and and work environment where people can hopefully feel that they're able to express themselves artistically, experiment, and learn at the same time.
就只是……
Just
顺便感谢一下我们的赞助商，马上回来。
a quick thanks to our sponsors, and we'll be right back
继续回到节目。
to the show.
各位，报税季又来了。
Folks, tax season is upon us.
挺有意思的。
Fun.
真有意思。
Fun.
太有意思了。
Fun.
它总能逼着我们正视自己的财务状况，不管我们愿不愿意。
It always has a way of forcing us to look at our finances whether we want to or not.
如果你一想到这个就头疼，那确实挺折腾的。
And if you're dreading that moment, it's a lot to pull together.
其实有很多办法能让理财变得更简单，压力更小。
There are ways to make your finances easier and far less stressful.
今天的赞助商Monarch，是一个一站式个人财务管理工具。
Today's sponsor, Monarch, is the all in one personal finance tool.
我好几个朋友都在用。
It's used by a bunch of my friends.
我的员工也在用，就是为了帮你把生活变得更轻松。
It's used by my employees designed to help make your life easier.
它能把你的所有财务状况都整合到手机或电脑上的一个仪表盘里。
It brings your entire financial life together in one dashboard on your phone or laptop.
我团队里有个人试过四个别的记账App，她说，用Monarch把所有账目连起来是最省事的。
One person on my team has tried four other budgeting apps, said linking everything together on Monarch was by far the easiest.
还有人说，说实话，我直接引述啊——对我而言最有用的就是那些小部件，因为我不用打开App，一眼就能看到购物、买菜和大额开销。
Another said, to be honest, and I'm quoting directly here, to be honest, the widgets are the most helpful thing for me because I can see shopping food and big expenses all on my screen without having to open the app.
然后她解释了原因。
And then she gives the reason.
我老是忘记车贷啥时候扣款，现在好了，我知道该在Target别乱花钱了。
I often forget about when things like car payments are happening, and now I know not to go overboard at Target or something like that.
对吧？
Right?
这样一来，花销就一目了然，特别好理解。
So it makes it visible, easy to grasp.
在他们2025年的调查中，有八成用户表示，Monarch 让他们对财务更有掌控感。
And in their 2025 survey, eight out of 10 members said Monarch helps them feel more in control over their finances.
Monarch 帮助用户平均每月多省了200多美元。
Monarch has helped users save more than $200 per month on average.
你还可以免费和伴侣或理财顾问共享你的Monarch账户，有七成用户说，这让他们和伴侣的财务沟通顺畅多了。
You can also share your Monarch account with a partner or financial adviser at no extra charge, and seven out of 10 members say it's improved financial conversations in their relationship.
这不光是我员工的体会，很多情侣也说，用它之后彼此更同心了。
This is true for my employees as well as couples being on the same page.
所以，2026年想财务上更顺利？就用Monarch吧。
So set yourself up for financial success in 2026 with Monarch.
去试试看。
Check it out.
去 monarch.com，用代码 Tim，首年半价。
Use code Tim at monarch.com for half off of your first year.
去 monarch.com，用代码 Tim，首年直接打五折。
That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code Tim.
那是2004年左右的事了，我在咖啡馆里有人走过来跟我说：‘嘿，老兄，幸会！’自我介绍了一下。
Back in the day, this was 2,004 maybe, I had someone approach me in a coffee shop and say, good day, mate, and introduce himself.
那人是谁啊？
Who was that?
你敢信吗？他居然是AG One的创始人，那时候可早了。
It turned out to be founder of AG One, believe it or not, way back in the day.
很多人常问我：你试过那么多补剂，二十多年下来，啥还留着没换？
And people often ask me, what has survived after twenty plus years of testing every supplement under the sun?
差不多都换了。
Just about.
那到底还有啥一直用着，没离手的？
What actually has stayed in the rotation, in the toolbox?
今天节目的赞助商AG One，就在这极短的清单顶端。
This episode sponsor AG one is at the top of that very, very short list.
我差不多十五年前就开始用了，那时候它还叫Athletic Greens。
I started using it close to fifteen years ago when it was still called Athletic Greens.
我把它写进《四小时身体》里了，没拿一分钱推广费，但它撑得比我还久，比其他我试过的都耐用。
I put it in the four hour body, didn't get paid to put it in there, and it's outlasted almost everything else that I've tried.
一勺就能搞定你日常的营养需求。
One scoop covers your nutritional bases.
对吧？
Right?
补上那些你吃不到的缺口。
Fills the gaps.
当然啦，吃好饭是根本，但这一勺里有75种以上成分——益生菌、B族维生素、全食物营养素，说白了，就是超值的营养保险。
You wanna eat good food, of course, but 75 plus ingredients, including probiotics, b vitamins, and whole food nutrients act as, in my opinion, pretty cheap nutritional insurance.
我每天早上第一件事就是用冷水冲一勺。
I take it first thing every morning with cold water.
现在都成条件反射了，跟刷牙一样自然。
And at this point, it's automatic, like brushing my teeth.
如果你想找一个最简单的日常习惯，既能护肠胃，又能补上常见的营养缺口，我第一个推荐它。
If you're looking for one simple daily habit that supports gut health and fills common nutrient gaps, this is where I'd start.
所以去了解一下吧。
So check them out.
现在就订阅，体验A.G.1的下一代产品。
Subscribe today to try the next gen of a g one.
听众首次下单还能免费获得一瓶D3K2、A.G.1欢迎礼包，还有A.G.1便携装。
Listeners will also get a free bottle of d three k two and a g one welcome kit and a g one travel packs with your first order.
赶紧从A.G.1的下一代产品开始你的改变，亲身体验不一样的效果。
So start your journey with a g one's next gen and experience the difference firsthand.
直接去 drinkag1.com/tim 就行。
Simply go to drinkag1.com/tim.
就是 drinkag1.com/tim。
That's drinkag1.com/tim.
我正琢磨着下一步该聊啥，估计会选‘恐惧预设’，因为我挺想听听这个怎么影响人的。
So I'm trying to figure out where to go next because I think it's probably gonna be fear setting just because I wanna hear how that factors into things.
明白了。
Okay.
那我们干脆直接聊这个吧？
Why don't we just go there?
因为我看过关于恐惧白板还有其他一些东西。
Because I've read about the whiteboard of fears and and other things.
不过我们也会花点时间聊聊循环练习。
I'm sure we'll spend a second on cycling also.
但这次采访能成，完全是靠一次X平台的互动。
But the way that this interview ultimately happened was because of an x exchange.
我发了个帖子，问大家有没有推荐的YouTube频道。
I put up a post about YouTube channels.
有没有哪个YouTube频道跟《四小时工作周》或者相关主题有交集？
Are there any YouTube channels out there that have some type of intersection with The 4Hour Workweek or any anything in it?
我们俩就是这么认识的。
And that's how we ultimately personally connected.
那恐惧设定在这整个故事里是怎么回事？
How does fear setting fit into the story?
嗯，蒂姆，恐惧设定在这故事里有多重意义。
Well, Tim, it fits into the story in a few ways.
当初《挑战接受》这个节目，就是我拿块白板，把所有害怕的事全写下来，再一一对应到那些逼我不得不面对它们的情境。
Challenge Accepted at its core originally began by me taking a whiteboard, writing all of my fears out, and then connecting each fear to a circumstance that would cause me to address it.
这不只是为了自我疗愈——我本身就很焦虑——更重要的是，这么做能让故事更打动人。
Not just as a, like, personal self help type of thing, because I am a very anxious person internally, but more specifically because it makes for a better story.
我们很早就意识到，展现脆弱、展现恐惧，正是斯奈德叙事结构里的关键一环。
We realized very early on showing the vulnerability, showing the fear, that's a key part of Snyder's beats of storytelling.
所以从故事里‘一切崩塌’的那个节点切入，帮我们挖出了特别精彩的一集集内容。
So starting with the all is lost moment of the story led us to unlock really, really fascinating episodes.
我们会把每集的主题定成这样：‘我想当消防员，但我没那么勇敢。’
And we would structure the thesis of each of like, I want to be a firefighter, but I'm not brave enough.
对。
Okay.
这故事有意思。
That's an interesting story.
我们在剪辑的每一个环节、前期制作的每一步，都在想着这一点。
And we're thinking about that in every piece of the edit, every piece of the preproduction.
当我真的冲进着火的大楼时，这才是情感的核心高潮，也是观众为什么如此在意的原因。
And that is the climax of the emotional core of when I finally go in a burning building, why we care so much.
《碟中谍》这个项目也是同样的道理。
It's the same in the Mission Impossible project.
我特别想出演一部《碟中谍》电影。
I would love to be in a Mission Impossible movie.
但我真有勇气像汤姆·克鲁斯那样，把自己绑在飞机侧面吗？
But am I actually brave enough to strap myself to the side of a plane like icon Tom Cruise?
嗯，有道理。
Okay.
我得先去试试这个。
I've gotta do that first.
不过蒂姆，我其实带了点东西来。
But I actually brought something, Tim.
你带了什么？
You brought something?
我带了东西来演示一下恐惧氛围的营造。
I brought something to help demonstrate fear setting.
好。
Okay.
我这就去拿。
I'm gonna bring it
现在就拿出来。
out now.
对。
Yeah.
咱们来吧
Let's do
好。
it.
我来给听音频的朋友描述一下。
I'll describe it for the audio listeners.
不用了。
No.
我觉得吧。
I reckon.
行吧。
Okay.
注意一下这个
Recognize the
我明白，好的。
I recognize the Okay.
很不幸，你对面坐着的是个风扇。
Unfortunately, you are dealing with a fan in the chair opposite from you.
但读完《四小时工作周》后，我的人生彻底改变了。
But reading The four Hour Workweek changed my life.
这是我在2016年保留的原始版本。
This is the original copy I have from 2016.
2007年书刚出来的时候我还小，所以没赶上那个版本。
I was a bit young when it came out in 2007, so I didn't have that that version.
所以这个版本可能稍微修订过。
So this might be slightly revised.
我翻了翻自己的存档，对，找到了这封邮件。
But I went back into my archives Mhmm.
找到了这封邮件。
And I found this email.
今天是几号来着？
The date is what is today?
2026年3月31号。
03/31/2026.
对。
Mhmm.
这封邮件的日期，我真没瞎编。
The date of this email I'm not making this up.
2016年3月18号。
03/18/2016.
整整十年了，哇。
It has been exactly ten years Wow.
从我发这封邮件到现在。
Since I sent this email.
明白了。
Okay.
我得特别感谢我的治疗师乔迪，要不是她让我读你的书，我根本不会看。
I have to shout out my therapist, Jody, because she's the one who told me to read your book.
我想念一段我写的‘恐惧设定’。
And I wanted to read a section of my fear setting.
天哪。
Oh my god.
太厉害了。
Amazing.
你知道的，这些记忆都来自你脑子里，那时候还没搞那个‘定义-预防-修复’表格呢。
Now, as you know, because these are your memories in your brain, this was prior to the define prevent repair chart Yeah.
就是你2017年那个TikTok的玩意儿。
Of your 2017 tech TikTok.
这根本就没进表格。
So this isn't even in a chart.
这纯粹是你当时脑子里冒出来的几个问题。
These are just a couple of questions that you had.
但我在这儿记下来了。
But I wrote here.
2020年？这太离谱了。
This 20 this is so crazy.
我的梦想是辞掉工作，开个YouTube频道， somehow 成功，掌握自己的创意，然后创办一家公司，让我能成长为一个讲故事的人，同时帮其他讲故事的人突破传统门槛，一起成长。
My dream is to leave my job, start a YouTube channel, somehow succeed, own my ideas, and start a company where I can grow as a storyteller and help other storytellers grow without traditional barriers to entry.
第一，说说你的噩梦是什么。
Number one, define your nightmare.
我先念几个重点。
I'm just gonna read a few of
精华部分。
the highlights.
对啊。
Oh, yeah.
你慢慢想。
Now take your time.
我的噩梦就是穷得叮当响，永远找不到自己最擅长的事，因为我最爱啥都试试，从不专攻一门。
Define my nightmare was going broke, never figuring out what I'm best at since I find the most joy in trying everything rather than specializing.
别人觉得我不搞笑。
People not thinking I'm funny.
最后一个，其实是我真的不够好笑。
And the last one is actually not being funny.
当然，我后来也一步步修复了这些损失。
And, of course, I went through the steps of repairing the damage.
那你有没有什么例子啊？
Well, can you do you have any examples to Yeah.
当然有。
Of course.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
因为我想简单举个例子，
Because for just I wanna give, like, a quick
讲讲你的那段经历？
talk Oh, do your spiel?
不用了。
No.
不用。
No.
不是演讲。
Not spiel.
就是简单做个背景铺垫。
Just like a quick context wrapper.
恐惧设定这事儿其实挺直接的。
So fear setting is a pretty straightforward thing.
这本质上是斯多葛学派的东西。
It's basically barred from the stoics.
我不是第一个研究这个的人。
I'm not the first person to look at this.
我只是想给自己整理出一套系统的方法。
I just tried to systematize it for myself.
这在《四小时工作周》里提到过。
It was in the four hour workweek.
这就像设定目标，但你要非常具体地找出自己的恐惧，对。
And it's like goal setting, but it's identifying your fears very specifically Mhmm.
然后把它们尽可能具体化，再想想如果这些事真的发生了，你能做些什么来预防或补救。
And then making them as concrete as possible, then talking about what you might do to prevent them and or repair them if they inevitably happened.
这样做的目的是把恐惧从那种模糊的焦虑云团，变成能放在显微镜下仔细观察的东西，对。
And the objective here is to, in a sense, demystify and take your fears from being this nebulous cloud of anxiety to something that you can put under a microscope Mhmm.
去检验它。
To test.
没错。
Yes.
所以第一步是明确最坏的情况。
So the first part is defining the nightmare.
第二步是，万一真出了事，你该采取哪些步骤来暂时止损？
The second is what steps would you take to repair the damage even temporarily?
我当时就用了在谷歌实习攒下的积蓄。
And here I had using my savings from my Google internship.
是的
Yeah.
我确实存了一些钱。
I did have savings from that.
还确保我的简历和领英资料都准备好，方便找行业内的其他工作。
And then making sure that my resume LinkedIn was ready for other jobs in the industry.
这是第三点。
This is number three.
如果你今天被裁员了，你怎么先稳住财务状况？
If you were fired from your job today, how would you get things under financial control?
我说我会先动用积蓄撑一阵子。
And I I said that I would temporarily use my savings.
如果还不行，就全力投简历，还列出了几家我打算联系的公司。
And if that didn't work out, aggressively apply for other jobs and listed some other companies I would reach out to.
这时候事情就变得特别紧张了。
This is where it gets very intense.
你因为害怕而一直在拖延什么事？
What are you putting off out of fear?
我在拖延辞职。
I'm putting off quitting my job.
我迟迟不敢去联系那些能帮我实现梦想的人，因为一旦开口，就意味着我得把心里话大声说出来。
I'm putting off reaching out to all the people I need to to make this dream a reality because it means I have to say it out loud.
我已经联系了一些人，但我知道自己还能做得更好。
I've reached out to some people, but I know I can do better.
你因为拖延行动，到底在经济上、情绪上、身体上付出了什么代价？
What is it costing you financially, emotionally, physically to postpone action?
我现在情绪压力特别大。
I'm under emotional high stress.
我想讲一些真正能打动人心的故事。
I want to tell stories that really resonate with other people.
我想和那些和我一样热爱创作、追求品质的人在一起。
I want to be around people who share creative joy and the same values of quality that I do.
我在一个感觉大家都跟我想法相反的环境里，过得不开心。
I am unhappy in an environment where I feel like people feel the opposite.
你到底在等什么？
What are you waiting for?
好了，这是最后一部分。
So this is the last section.
我一直在等一种虚假的安全感，等着有人主动找我合作，等着谁给我提供经济保障之类的。
I'm waiting for a false sense of security to inspire me to take a leap, a brand offering to collaborate, someone else offering financial stability, etcetera.
但实际上，我正被推着、被邀请着，第一次为自己创造真正的安全感。
But I'm actually being challenged and invited to create my own security for the first time.
天啊，读到这儿我都惊了。
I have oh, this is like crazy to read.
我真的有。
I have.
我一直在别人定义的成功标准里找成就感，可从来没找到过真正的快乐。
I've continually found success in other people's rubric of success, but I've actually never found happiness.
我从来没为自己定过一套成功的标准。
I've never designed my own rubric of success.
因为我根本不相信自己能定义什么是成功。
And that's because I don't trust myself to define success.
我害怕承担起这份责任。
I'm scared to assume that responsibility.
那张图其实是我对恐惧的梳理。
That was my fear setting chart.
这完全是个人化的过程。
It's very personal process.
确实如此。
It is.
我知道，你们当中真这么做过的人，一定懂这种感觉。
I know you and anyone listening who have actually like done it can empathize with that.
从我的视频里你们也看得出来，我是个特别感性的人。
I'm a very emotional person as you can see from my videos.
都是我真实的想法。
It's real.
总之，能跟你分享这段经历我特别开心。
Anyways, I was so excited to share that with you.
你愿意跟我讲这些真的太让我感动了，谢谢你能把这些事说出来。
I am so moved by you sharing that, and I really appreciate you bringing that.
是啊。
Yeah.
当然
Of
啊。
course.
而且你真的做到了啊。
And you fucking did it also.
对吧？
Right?
天啊，这也太离谱了。
God, that's crazy.
真的，兄弟们，这玩意儿真管用。
Like, guys, it works.
它真的有效。
It it actually works.
等等。
Wait.
我还没跟你说最搞笑的部分呢。
I didn't tell you the funniest part of this.
来，最搞笑的部分在这儿。
Here's the funniest part.
所以这本书，到目前为止，已经在我书架上放了十年了。
So this has obviously been on my bookshelf for ten years at this point.
我特别爱记笔记，就像你一样，手写那种。
And I am a copious, like you, handwriter, notetaker.
我把书都翻烂了。
I beat up my books.
我总在页边写写画画。
I write in the margins.
还做批注。
And proof.
你看这书，明显都磨旧了。
I mean, like, this is you can see the wear and tear on this thing.
但我一打开，居然一点笔记都没有。
But when I opened this, there was absolutely no annotation.
我当时就纳闷了：这咋回事？
And I was like, why is this?
我真是被整懵了。
And I I felt stumped on it.
后来我翻到一封邮件，这才恍然大悟。
And it wasn't until I found this email where it was revealed.
好吧。
Okay.
这是我给治疗师发邮件时附上的那个表格。
This is how I wrote to my therapist with the chart.
天啊，全是大写字母。
OMG, all caps.
我简直着了魔似的迷上《四小时工作周》这本书。
I am obsessed with the four hour work week.
用了好几个感叹号。
Several exclamation points.
我周一从同事那儿拿到这本书，之后每天晚上都看得停不下来。
I just got the book on Monday from my coworker, and I've been reading it incessantly every night.
这是我做的恐惧设定练习。
Here's my fear setting exercise.
原来这书是我偷来的。
I stole this book, apparently.
我坐那儿就想，昨晚录节目前我刚给我的治疗师打过电话。
And I sat I was like, I called my therapist last night before recording.
我在想，这书到底是谁借给我的？
I was who would I have borrowed this book from?
我真的完全不记得这书是谁的了，但它在我书架上放了整整十年。
I couldn't I have no idea whose book is in my lap right now, but it's been on my shelf for ten years.
不管是谁的，我真的太抱歉了。
Whoever it is, I'm so sorry.
对了，你其他的书我全买过。
By the way, I did buy all of your other books.
所以我确实支持了这个经济体系，只是现在手里这本蒂姆·费里斯的书是偷来的。
So I did contribute to that economy, but I have a stolen Tim Ferriss book.
这真是……
That's I
我应该把这本书捐给图书馆什么的，让循环继续下去。
should, like, contribute to the cycle and donate it to a library or something.
但是。
But.
天哪。
Oh my god.
这也太棒了。
That is so good.
特别搞笑的是，借给我这本书的同事根本不知道他们对我影响有多大，我都想不起那人是谁了。
It's so funny because the person from my job who let me borrow and steal this has no idea how much they impact me because I don't even remember who it was.
那时候我们都在一个大开间办公室，三十张桌子挤在一起。
I mean, we were all in a bullpen with 30 desks.
我估计就是从旁边座位的人那儿顺手拿的，不过……
I probably just borrowed it from someone who sat next to me, but
关于‘恐惧设定’，我有个后续问题。
So here's here's a follow-up question on the fear setting.
这可不是陷阱题，因为当人们踏上任何有野心或令人害怕的旅程时，往往都不是一条直线上升的路。
And this isn't a trick question because when people experience any ambitious or scary journey for themselves, often the same thing, it's not a straightforward line up into the right.
说完这个之后，你是什么时候开始为实现梦想采取行动的？
It's a bulky After doing that, when did you take action towards realizing the dream?
可能只是一个特别小的举动。
It could have been a very small thing.
我不太记得了。
I don't know.
但你能说说，那个真正让你走上正轨的第一步是什么吗？
But, like, what was the kind of defining first step that kinda set you on the actual path to realizing what you laid out?
我很快就行动了，但花了一年才辞掉工作。
I took action pretty immediately, but it took me a year to quit my job.
我来解释一下这两者的区别。
And I'll define what the difference is.
我立刻就行动了，虽然这听起来可能有点疯狂。
I took action immediately by this might be crazy.
这其实是蒂姆·费里斯的一个实验。
This was a Tim Ferriss experiment.
我特别有共鸣，你写到接受最坏结果的时候，我感同身受。
I really resonated with what you wrote about coming to terms with the worst possible outcome.
所以我决定，我要训练自己去面对最坏的情况。
And so I decided, I'm going to train myself for the worst possible outcome.
太棒了。
I love it.
没错。
Yeah.
于是我搬进了一间和别人合租的小公寓。
So I moved into a studio apartment with a roommate.
我把开销砍到了最低。
I financially stripped down.
其实我本来也没多少钱，但能省的我都省了，就当是模拟一下。
I mean, I didn't have much anyways, but stripped as much as I could to simulate.
万一我真的失败了，只能住在好莱坞的合租房里，那我就先习惯这种生活。
If I'm truly failing at this and having having to live in a Hollywood apartment with a bunch of roommates, I'm just gonna get used to that.
我现在就要开始适应这种生活。
I'm gonna get used to it right now.
我要取消所有会员服务，看看单靠自己怎么保持健康。
I'm gonna cancel all of my memberships and figure out how to stay healthy with just myself.
就我一个人，待在这个小地方。
Just myself in this small place.
我还要保证下班后和周末都专心写自己的故事。
I am also going to commit to working on my own stories after work, on the weekends.
因为如果现在日子还安稳的时候我都做不了，那我就得证明给自己看，我真的是在乎这件事的。
Because if I can't do it now with stability, I need to prove to myself that I actually give a shit about this, really.
我这么坚持了一整年，攒了点小积蓄，身体和心理的耐力也慢慢上来了。
And I did that for an entire year, growing a little bit of a personal savings, but also growing mental and physical stamina towards.
我当然还处在安全区，但我觉得自己已经能应付这种状态了。
I'm already in still a place of safety, of course, but I am in a situation where I think I can handle this.
我能行。
I got this.
领英资料我都更新好了。
Like, LinkedIn is up to date.
简历也弄好了。
Little resume is up to date.
我准备好了。
I am so ready.
我已经设定了预案，也做了预防，希望根本用不着走到第三步——修复那一步。
I have defined, prevent, and hopefully, we don't gotta go to that third column repair.
一年后，正好，我辞职了。
And so then a year later, exactly, I quit my job.
辞职的时候，我早就攒了两个月的视频，随时都能发。
And when I quit, I had two months of videos backlogged, ready to go.
而且，说清楚啊，都是我自己的设备，没用公司资源。
Also legally, for the record, on my own machine, not company resources.
所有东西都准备就绪了。
All of that was ready to go.
我知道我的第一个大项目会是什么——跟特技替身一起训练。
And I knew what my first big project would be, training with stunt doubles.
拍摄日期我都定好了。
I had a shoot date ready.
那时候我总共就存了三个月的积蓄。
I had taken I only had like three months of savings at that point.
我早就把这笔钱划出来，专门用来做这个梦想项目，是我频道里的第一次冒险。
And I had allocated this is going to be for the dream project, my first risk on my channel.
这笔钱谁都不能动。
Nothing will touch that.
剩下的才用来应付日常开销。
The rest is is for operating daily life expenses.
我就跟自己说：三个月，必须把这事做成。
And I said, I got three months to to make this work.
就像你说的，咱们之前也聊过，有时候真得逼自己一把，豁出去干。
And like you said, you know, like we've been talking about, sometimes you gotta put your back against the wall and go.
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