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大家好，各位小朋友和大朋友。
Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs.
我是蒂姆·费里斯。
This is Tim Ferriss.
欢迎收听《蒂姆·费里斯秀》的又一期节目。十多年来，我的工作就是拆解来自不同领域的顶尖高手，提炼出他们的方法论、最爱的书、日常习惯，这次还会分享你可以直接照着做的原话脚本。
Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show, where for more than a decade, it has been my job to deconstruct world class performers from different disciplines, all different disciplines, to tease out the frameworks, the favorite books, the routines, and in this case, the word for word scripts that you can apply to your own lives.
今天请到的嘉宾是贝基·肯尼迪医生。
My guest today is doctor Becky Kennedy.
她是‘Good Inside’的创始人兼首席执行官，这个育儿平台拥有超过一百个国家的用户，颠覆了许多主流育儿建议，帮助父母成为坚定而自信的引导者。
She is the founder and CEO of Good Inside, a parenting movement with members in more than 100 countries that overturns a lot of conventional modern parenting advice to actually empower parents to become sturdy, confident leaders.
我们会解释这到底意味着什么，以及如何培养出坚强自信的孩子。
We'll explain what that means and raise sturdy, confident kids.
现在网上育儿建议多得数不清，但贝基·肯尼迪的观点特别打动我，所以我一直想请她来做客。
Of course, there are a million people out there giving parenting advice, and doctor Becky Kennedy's advice, her thinking on this has resonated incredibly well with me, and that is why for years I've wanted to have her on.
她写的《Good Inside》是畅销榜冠军书，同时她主持的播客也稳居排行榜前列。
She is the author of the number one best selling book by the same name, Good Inside, a chart topping podcast.
《Good Inside》与贝基，主题一目了然。
Good Inside with Becky, you can see the theme here.
一场关于修复力量的TED演讲，播放量近四百万。
A TED talk with nearly 4,000,000 views on the power of repair.
我们会聊聊这到底意味着什么，具体表现又是怎样的。
We'll discuss what that means and what it looks like.
还有一本儿童读物，《那是我的卡车》，讲的是打人这件事，属于Good Inside的理念。
And a children's book, That's My Truck, a good inside story about hitting.
也许我也可以用上这一招。
Maybe I could use that too.
你可以在goodinside.com上找到她，Instagram账号是doctor Becky at good inside。
You can find her online at goodinside.com and on Instagram at doctor Becky at good inside.
简约至上。
Optimal minimal.
在这个海拔上，我能平跑半英里，手才会开始发抖。
At this altitude, I can run flat for a half mile before my hands start to shake.
我可以回答你的私人问题吗？
Can I answer your personal question?
我们现在只是坐在
Now we're just sitting at
大场面了。
the big time.
我是个赛博格，金属骨架上覆盖着活体组织。
I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.
那我就先说说刚才突然想到的吧。
Well, let's start with what popped into my head.
好。
Great.
我们就顺着这个思路继续聊下去，太棒了。
And we'll just keep rolling with that thread Love it.
看看会不会变得更有趣。
And see if it goes more interesting.
如果走不通，我就带咱们换个方向。
If it's a dead end, I'll get us out of the dead end.
不过我想聊聊你关于修复力量的那场TED演讲。
But I wanna talk perhaps about your TED talk on the power of repair.
你觉得为什么这件事能引起大家的共鸣？是什么特别打动了他们？
Why do you think this struck a chord with people, and what resonated with people from that?
一个典型的例子就是，你冲孩子大喊大叫。
A classic example is you yell at your kid for something.
对吧？
Right?
我举这个例子，跟我在TED演讲里用的不同，因为它还能引出一些常见的问题。
So I'll use this example, which is different than the one in my TED talk because it also leads to some, you know, common questions.
我孩子早上总是磨蹭。
So my kid's stalling in the morning.
我得送孩子上学，而且我送完孩子还得赶去上班，可孩子老是迟到。
Like, I gotta get my kid to school because also when I drop my kid at school, I have to get to work and my kid's late.
我迟到了。
I'm late.
整个过程都特别匆忙。
The whole thing were also rushed.
我孩子一直在那儿说，你知道的，反正就是一堆话。
And my kid is saying, you know, I don't know whatever they're saying.
今天我不去上学了。
I'm not going to school today.
你逼不了我去上学。
You can't make me go to school.
我就不穿鞋。
I'm not putting on my shoes.
你帮我穿鞋。
You put on my shoes.
你心里想，我都八岁了，得自己穿鞋才行。
And you're thinking like, I have an eight year old like they have to put on their shoes.
对吧？
Right?
然后到了某个关键时刻，作为父母——我得说我自己也有这毛病——我就会冲孩子大喊大叫。
And then we get to some crescendo moment where as a parent, and I'll say me myself because I have this too, I just yell and scream at my kid.
你到底怎么了？
What is wrong with you?
你什么都不做。
You don't do anything.
你都八岁了。
You're eight years old.
我们老是说些这样的话：你这辈子肯定没出息。
You know, we we say all like, you're never gonna amount to anything in your life.
连鞋子都不会穿，你太自私了。
You can't put on your shoes or, you know, you're so selfish.
你这样会害我迟到的。
You're gonna make me late.
你让我变成了一个怪物。
You turn me into a monster.
你为什么就不能第一次就听进去呢？
Why can't you listen the first time?
我们总说这种话？
We say this thing?
根据孩子的性格，他们的反应也不一样。
Depending on our kid's temperament, they react in different ways.
如果是那种特别想讨好大人的孩子，一听就立刻安静了。
If they're kind of in the more people pleasing type, that immediately stops them.
他们心里想：天啊，不好了。
They're like, oh, no.
爸妈生气了。
My parents mad at me.
我知道了，我以后会乖的。
You know, I'm gonna be good.
主要是因为我特别希望他们能让我感觉到，我是个好孩子。
Mostly just because I'm I really need to see that they reflect me that I'm a good kid.
我真的需要这种认可。
I, like, need that.
如果你家孩子性格不一样，他们反而会把这当成挑衅，心想：你是不是想打架？
If you have another temperament kid, they use this as a way of like, oh, you wanna fight?
那我就让你见识见识什么叫打架。
I'll show you a fight.
他们干脆说：我就不穿鞋。
And they're like, I am not putting on my shoes.
你懂的。
You know?
我以前就是这样。
That was me.
没错。
Right.
那是我第三个孩子。
That is my third kid.
我特别爱他。
Love him.
你是家里的第几个孩子？
What order are you?
我是老大。
I'm first.
你是老大？
You're first?
是的。
Mhmm.
明白了。
Okay.
但我小时候特别叛逆，对吧。
But I was a pretty defiant little kid Right.
有时候吧。
At points.
然后你就熬过那个时刻，挺过去了。
And so then you get through the moment, you get through it.
送完孩子后，当父母的往往会感到一种沉重的压力。
And then I think after drop off, there's just like immense heaviness as a parent.
你会不断回想各种事，而你内心的那声音，可能是你自己的，也可能是在你成长过程中内化来的——想象如果你是那个孩子，当年别人会怎么对你说话，但归根结底，这声音总带着责备。
And you're cycling through different things that again, whatever your voice is might be your own voice or it's probably the voice you've internalized from your own upbringing in terms of how people would have responded to you if you were your kid in that moment, but it's some version of blame.
要么怪自己，要么怪别人。
It's either blame in or blame out.
要么觉得自己是个糟糕的父母。
It's either I'm an awful parent.
我怎么就是没法保持冷静呢？
Why can't I stay calm?
为什么我连一个早晨都熬不过去？
And why can't I just get to the morning?
然后通常又会转到觉得孩子太糟糕了，简直是小混蛋，将来肯定要进监狱，一辈子都成不了器。
And then that usually cycles with I have an awful kid, and my kid's a sociopath, and gonna go to jail, and they're never gonna amount to anything.
不管哪种情况，其实都是在怪罪。
And either way, you're blaming.
而修复关系的话，某时某刻你应该对孩子说：嘿。
Where repair would be saying to your kid at some point, hey.
我刚才对你大吼大叫了。
I screamed at you earlier.
那肯定让你很害怕吧。
That probably felt scary.
接下来这话可能有点争议，但我还是想说。
And this will be the kind of maybe maybe the start of something controversial.
我冲你发火，从来都不是你的错。
It's never your fault when I yell.
我正在努力让自己更冷静一点。
And I'm working on staying calmer.
所以即使我感到沮丧，我也可以用更平静的语气说话。
So even when I'm frustrated, I can use a calmer voice.
对不起。
Like, I'm sorry.
这才是真正的修复。
That would be a repair.
我其实是在回到那段不愉快的回忆，就像重新翻开那一页一样。
I'm kind of going back to a moment that felt bad, kind of like reopening that part of the chapter.
我在为自己的行为负责。
I'm taking responsibility for my behavior.
我在给孩子讲清楚当时发生了什么，也聊聊下次我会怎么做得不一样。
I'm giving my kid a story to understand what happened, and I'm kind of talking about what I would do differently the next time.
好的。
Alright.
这太好了。
This is great.
克里斯负责磨坊的事。
Chris for the mill.
我之所以特别想邀请你来，和你聊一聊，部分原因是我们之前也提到过——你提到的这些方法其实适用范围特别广，连那些一般人不会跟育儿扯上关系的人也在用，比如海豹突击队指挥官乔科·威尔金斯，他讲的‘绝对责任’就是一回事。
And part of the reason, and we talked about this a little bit before recording, that I was excited to have you on and have a conversation, is that the tools you're talking about really apply everywhere, and they're echoed by a lot of folks people would not necessarily associate with parenting, like Jocko Willink, Navy Seal commander, extreme ownership.
我还能举出很多别的例子，我觉得今天我们聊的内容，能在各种不同的场景里用上，不管是哪个‘道场’，核心工具和方法都差不多。
And there are many other examples that I could give where I feel like what we will discuss in our conversation can be applied many different places, many different dojos for very similar tools and toolkits.
不过我猜，有一句话可能会让人卡住，而你肯定知道我想说的是什么——我冲你吼的时候，从来都不是你的错。
With that said, I suspect one line where people maybe got stuck, and you know exactly what I'm gonna say, is it's never your fault when I yell at you.
对。
Yes.
好吧。
Alright.
我特别喜欢这一点，因为再提一次乔科，他第一次上播客、第一次接受采访，就是在咱们这个节目，那都是一百年前的事了。
Part of me loves that because, just to invoke the great name of Jocko again, who did his first ever podcast, first ever interview on this podcast a hundred years ago.
当你愿意承担责任时，你就重新掌握了主动权。
When you own things, you give yourself a degree of agency.
是的。
Yes.
对吧？
Right?
但过度自责也可能是一种反面表现，就是把别人的行为和情绪都揽到自己身上，有点依赖型或者类似的情况。
But also overly blaming yourself can be the flip side of maybe taking on excessive responsibility for other people's actions and feelings and so on, meaning sort of codependent or otherwise.
我听懂你说了什么，不过我想有些听众可能会觉得：‘永远不’？
So I heard everything you said, but I suppose like some listeners, was like, always never.
这种绝对化的说法语气太重了。
These absolutes are very strong words.
没错。
Mhmm.
为什么非得说这句话呢？
Why say that particular line?
当我分享一段话时，对我来说，这些词往往代表的是某种原则。
And when I share a script, to me, it's often words that are representative of kind of principles.
我不太喜欢太纠结于字眼。
I never like to get too stuck on words.
我之所以举那些例子，其实是想引发一些思考。
I actually gave those words an example in part because I think it does bring up a lot of questions.
但我真不希望谁听了之后就觉得，好吧。
But I never want someone to hear this and think, okay.
我得把那个词原封不动记下来。
I gotta write down that exact word.
总的来说，对自己的行为负责就好。
In general, take responsibility for your actions.
给孩子讲个故事。
Give your kid a story.
下次换个方式说，或者做点不一样的。
Say what you do differently the next time.
我反而希望听的人能想到：我好像也有自己那一套类似的做法。
And I actually would hope anyone listening would say, I think I have my own brand of that.
太棒了。
Amazing.
对你和孩子来说，这比我的方式更好。
That's better for you and your kid than my brand.
所以，考虑到这一点，我大喊大叫的时候，从来都不是你的错。
So with that in mind, it's never your fault when I yell.
我之所以这么说，是因为我觉得即使你不直接说出来，只要认真想想，这个观点也很有力量。
Here's why I think that's powerful even if you don't say it to discuss and really think about.
我们对孩子反应的方式，确实和眼前的情况有关，但更根本的是，我们反应的是自己身体里的一堆情绪，加上我们用来处理这些情绪的固有模式。
The way we react to our kid, yes, has to do with the situation in front of us, but we actually react to the set of feelings in our own body combined with the circuitry we have to manage those feelings.
我觉得最值得思考的是，这套情绪管理的模式，早在孩子出生之前就存在了。
And I think the biggest thing to think about is that circuitry, those skills we have to manage emotions literally predated our kids' existence.
它们早就存在了，远在孩子出现之前。
That was there so far before them.
现在，当孩子不听话、早晨又耽误了的时候，我会感到沮丧。
Now when my kid doesn't listen and the morning is delayed, I feel frustrated.
这种情绪确实是和孩子共同造成的。
And that feeling is definitely co created with my kid.
把挫败感本身和我应对挫败感的能力分开，是两码事。
Separating frustration from my ability to manage the frustration are two really different things.
跟孩子说，是你让我大喊大叫。
And telling a kid, basically, you make me yell.
说你让我变成怪物，其实是把孩子当成你管理情绪能力不足的替罪羊。
You turn me into a monster is actually holding your kid responsible for your set of skills to manage your feelings.
另一个原因，我现在先不说了，我觉得这特别有力量，因为我总会想到我儿子。
And the other reason, and then I'll be quiet for right now, that I think it's so powerful is I think about my son.
我不确定。
I don't know.
可能是女儿，都一样。
Could be my daughter, whatever.
假设有一天他结婚了，有了伴侣。
He's married one day, let's say, and he has some partner.
他那天工作特别不顺。
And I don't He had a really bad day at work.
他回到家，碰巧我去他家做客。
And he comes home, and for some reason, I'm at his house visiting.
他的伴侣说：天哪。
And his partner is like, oh, man.
我忘了去店里买卫生纸。
I I forgot to get toilet paper from the store.
吃晚饭时，他伴侣可能给他点错了菜。
And then he sits down for dinner, and maybe his partner, like, ordered him the wrong thing.
我不清楚。
I don't know.
他冲她大喊大叫。
He yells at her.
我还听见他说：你要是一开始买了卫生纸，点菜也点对了，我至于冲你发火吗？
And I hear him saying, well, if you just got toilet paper and ordered me the right thing, I wouldn't be yelling at you.
我都能想象出那场面有多尴尬。
And I picture the cringe.
天哪，这也太离谱了吧。
I'm like, oh my god.
这简直是最让人毛骨悚然的事了。
That's like the creepiest thing.
认真的吗？
Like, seriously?
那个软件是我装的吗？
Did I install that software?
然后我们平时对小孩不也总说：你要是第一次就听进去，我也不用冲你喊了。
Then we hear ourselves say to our kids all the time, if you just listened the first time, I wouldn't have yelled.
或者吧。
Or like, okay.
要是你安安静静跟妹妹玩，我也不会对你发火啊。
Well, if you were just calmly playing with your sister, then you wouldn't get this reaction from me.
如果将来我们听到孩子对伴侣说这话时会觉得尴尬，觉得我们自己绝不会希望孩子这么说，那我们为什么觉得小时候对孩子说这种话是合理的呢？
And if that creeps us out down the line, like if we wouldn't say, I would be so proud to hear my kids say that to a partner, then I don't know why we think that's a good idea to say to our kids when they're young.
所以从这一点出发，能延伸出很多不同的方向。
So there are many different branches off of this Mhmm.
我们可以深入探讨一下。
That we could explore.
不如我们先退一步，或者换个视角，你选个喜欢的比喻吧。
Let's maybe back up or zoom out, choose your favorite metaphor.
在你看来，或者说在你的理念或世界观里，什么是当一个好父母的意义？
And perhaps you could just, in your, I suppose, framework or worldview, what it means to be a good parent.
你能解释一下，或者谈谈你的看法吗？
Could you define this or just speak to that?
对。
Yeah.
然后我们可以以此为基础，展开讨论其他很多话题。
And then we can use that as a sort of a foundation from which we can launch into a bunch of other stuff.
是的。
Yeah.
对于这个问题，我现在本该有个简洁又有力的回答。
I should have a really succinct really solid answer to that question by now.
但我
But I
好在我们时间很充裕。
Fortunately, we have a lot of time.
也许我纠结的地方在于，我们通常把‘好父母’这个词理解成一些看得见的行为表现。
Maybe part of what I struggle with is I think we probably think about that word or that term good parent is like what I'm doing on the surface is something observable.
而我觉得更核心的一点是，要把你作为一个人的内在身份——那些看不见的部分——和你实际的言行——那些看得见的部分——区分开来。
Or I think a core principle that I think about is actually separating kind of who you are in terms of your identity, which is not observable, from what you do and your actions, which usually is observable, separating those two.
我觉得，一个好父母，会把养育孩子看作是一场自我成长与探索的旅程，而不只是关注孩子的发展。
I mean, but I think a good parent probably sees parenting as a journey of self growth and discovery as much as they see it about anything related to your kid's growth.
所以，这算是第一条吧。
So I think that's number one.
第二点，我觉得好父母在面对孩子时，会更注重激发好奇心，而不是急于评判。
Number two, I think a good parent really activates curiosity over judgment in a situation with their kids.
好父母还能真正做到：做孩子最稳固的引导者，既要有坚定的界限和权威，也要有温暖的共情与支持，这两者缺一不可。
And a good parent probably can put into action the idea that really being the sturdiest leader for your kid involves equal parts, very firm boundaries, and parental authority as it does kind of warm validating connection.
你提到要以好奇心取代评判。
You mentioned curiosity over judgment.
当人们听到‘评判’这个词时，通常会想到负面的评价，但评判也可能像‘做得好’这样的正面评价。
Now when people hear this word judgment, they probably assume that as a negative judgment, but a judgment could also be something like good job.
对的。
Mhmm.
是吧？
Right?
那在取代正面或负面评判时，好奇心会是什么样子呢？
So what would curiosity look like in place of either negative or positive judgment?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得‘干得好’这种话，我见过很多家长被建议说，你就多说‘干得好’。
I think the words good job, I've gotten a lot of, like, press for parents like, you know, so say good job.
就说‘干得好’。
Say good job.
这并不会对孩子的成长造成伤害。
It's not gonna do damage to your kid.
但这里面其实有很多值得深入探讨的东西，背后有更根本的原则。
I think there's a lot we can unpack there against there's deeper principles.
对吧？
Right?
孩子取得成绩的时候，他们真正需要的是什么？
Like, oh, what do kids really need when they have accomplishments?
是的。
Yeah.
我喜欢你这种宏观的视角，其实不在于孩子用的是蜡笔、油画颜料、丙烯还是炭笔，关键是要掌握绘画的基本功。
I like how you zoom out because it's not the whether you're using, like, crayons or the oil paints or the acrylics or or charcoal, you have to learn the fundamentals of, like, drawing.
要做到这一点，你得学会怎么去观察事物。
And to do that, you need to learn how to see things.
这其实就是回归到最根本的原则。
So it's like returning to those first principles.
没错。
That's right.
对。
Right.
完全正确。
That's exactly right.
我觉得评判可能是正面的，但在育儿，其实任何关系里，我们都很容易看到别人一些让人不舒服或不够理想的行为。
So I think judgment, it can be positive, but I would say in parenting, actually in any relationship, it's just so easy to see someone's behavior that feels bad or feels less than ideal.
然后我们马上就对这些行为做出评判。
And we just activate our judgment about the behavior.
通常当你评判行为时，你其实是在无意识地把行为当成一个人本质的体现。
And usually when you judge behavior, what you're unconsciously doing is you're seeing behavior as a sign of who someone is.
所以你才会去评判它。
That's why you're judging it.
这个人太自私了。
This person's such a selfish person.
对吧？
Right?
我朋友没给我回电话。
My friend didn't call me back.
哎呀，他们真自私。
Oh, they're so selfish.
我孩子在游乐场老是打人，我都跟他说过别打人了。
Or my kid keeps hitting on the playground even though I say no hitting.
结果我们根本没意识到，自己已经在想：我孩子怎么了？
And then we don't even realize going to, what's wrong with my kid?
为什么我孩子这么不听话？
Why do have such a bad kid?
你懂的。
You know?
我孩子永远都学不会这些事。
My kid is never gonna figure things out.
我真是个不称职的父母。
I'm a bad parent.
你只看到表面，就觉得自己全明白了。
You just see something on the surface and you kind of feel like you know everything about it.
我其实从来没想过这一点。
I actually think I never thought about that.
这才是真正评判一个人的意思。
That's really what it means to judge something.
我看到的只是更大故事里的一小部分，却误以为那是全部。
I see something as probably part of a larger story, and instead I think it's the whole thing.
在我看来，关系中与评判相反的，是好奇。
To me, the opposite of judgment in any relationship is curiosity.
我觉得好奇就是当你看到一件事，只是单纯地想知道为什么。
And I think curiosity is when you see something and you just wonder about it.
对我来说，这个词特别适合用在父母身上。
To me, that's like one of the best words for parents.
好奇。
Wonder.
我很好奇，为什么我孩子会打人。
I wonder why my kid is hitting.
只要你一用‘好奇’这个词，你就没法评判了，因为你开始思考，试着去理解背后更大的图景。
As soon as you use the word wonder, you're unable to judge because you're thinking and kind of conjuring up this bigger picture.
不过，当父母们听到我说这个时，通常会想：哦，那是不是就不管了？
Now where parents usually go when they hear me say that, it's like, oh, so it's just okay.
我孩子打人，那也没关系？
My kid's hitting.
这里其实又有一种评判，我们甚至在这种情况底下也在评判
And there's this, again, judgment we even do there where
你一定得跟太多持有强烈观点的人打交道了。
You must deal with so many people with so many strong opinions.
嗯，这部分我理解。
Well, part of it is I get it.
我对父母特别有同理心，甚至能理解他们对我们这种方式的怀疑，因为我们从小就被灌输了一套‘行为第一、惩罚先行’的观念。
I have so much empathy for parents and even understand their skepticism of our approach because we have had shoved down our throat this very, very behavior first, punishment first.
我们管这叫管教。
We call it discipline.
但在生活其他领域，这简直是个笑话。
It's actually a joke to me in any other area of life.
要是老板和教练像我们对待孩子那样对下属说话，还美其名曰‘管教’，那早就没人敢用他们了，早就被炒了。
If we allowed CEOs and coaches to talk to the people in their organizations like we think parents do to kids and then we call it disciplined, it would never fly and those people would be fired.
可这种观念早就被硬塞进我们脑子里了。
But we've had that shoved down our throats.
所以任何新东西都会让人觉得不自在，而这些想法确实非常新。
And so anything new always feels uncomfortable, and these are very new ideas.
但我想到其他方面，哪怕是对孩子来说。
But I think about with other areas even with kids.
如果你的孩子不会游泳，你就教他游泳。
If your kid isn't learning how to swim, you teach them how to swim.
没人会说：‘哦，你就觉得孩子不会游泳也没关系？’
And nobody says, oh, you just think it's okay that they're not swimming?
你会觉得：‘这怎么可能？’
It's like a you'd be like, what?
我只是在教他怎么游泳。
I'm just teaching them how to swim.
关于‘好工作’这件事，我有一些想法。
So I have a bunch of thoughts on this good job thing.
我知道。
I know that
我们来谈吧。
Let's do it.
我喜欢你提出的那些替代‘好棒’的说法。
I like your potential replacements for that.
你能给大伙儿举个具体的例子吗？比如，不讲‘好棒’的话，你会怎么说？
Could you just just to give people a concrete example, like, what might you say instead of good job?
有个孩子来找我们，比如说吧，
A kid comes to us and let's say they I don't know.
一个小孩子拿了一幅画给我们，我们可能会说，‘哇，好棒。’
A young kid brings us a a painting, and we could say, oh, good job.
这太棒了。
It's amazing.
对吧？
Right?
要是大一点的孩子拿了一篇作文过来，成绩不错，我们也会说，‘好棒。’
Or let's say an older kid brings us some paper they wrote and they got a good grade, we say, good job.
明白了。
Okay.
再说一遍，说‘干得好’并不会伤害孩子。
Again, good job does not damage kids.
对的。
Mhmm.
但我认为，在这些时刻，作为父母，我们更希望真正帮助孩子建立自信。
But I think in those moments, we want as parents to kind of double down on building our kids' confidence.
这通常才是我们真正想达成的目标。
That's usually the goal we're optimizing for.
所以对我来说，问题在于：这真的是最好的方式吗？还是说，我们其实还有别的办法？
So then to me, the question is, is that like the best of all options or at least we have other tools in our toolbox?
真正能建立孩子自信的，是学会先向内看，再向外看。
And the thing that really builds kids' confidence is learning to gaze in before you gaze out.
我们现在所处的世界，却总在催促我们先向外看，再向内看。
We're in a world that is priming us to gaze out before we gaze in.
就像在说：你看我做到了什么。
Kind of like, look what I've done.
难道这世界上就没个人能告诉我，我已经足够好了吗？
And can someone in the world tell me it slash I am good enough?
我们生活的世界就是这样，让人内心空虚、脆弱，还特别焦虑。
That's basically the world we live in, and it makes you very empty and very fragile, very, very anxious.
你是在说社交媒体吗？
I'm talking about social media?
就是社交媒体。
Social media.
没错。
Yeah.
方方面面都是。
Everything.
我的意思是，有太多这样的事了。
I mean, so many things.
对吧？
Right?
肯定是社交媒体的问题。
Definitely social media.
大多数人财务信息都分散在十几个地方。
Most people's finances live in, say, a dozen places.
我也是这样。
This includes me.
账户、卡片、投资，还有好多根本互不相通的东西。
Accounts, cards, investments, more that never talk to one another.
很难管理得清楚。
It's hard to keep track of.
这一集的赞助商，也是我们团队最钟爱的工具之一——Monarch，是一款全能型个人理财应用，用人工智能帮你把所有财务状况整合成清晰完整的视图。
This episode sponsor and one of my team's absolute favorite tools, Monarch, is the all in one personal finance app that uses AI to give you a complete, organized view of your money.
账户、投资、净资产、储蓄目标，全都集中在一个地方，实时更新。
Accounts, investments, net worth, savings goal, all in one place, always up to date.
我好几个朋友也都特别喜欢这个。
A bunch of my friends also love this.
Monarch 已经帮助用户平均每月多存了 200 多美元，而且你可以问它各种问题。
Monarch has helped users save more than $200 per month on average, and you can ask it all sorts of things.
你可以向 Monarch 的 AI 助手询问任何关于你财务的问题。
You can ask Monarch's AI assistant anything about your money.
我到十二月能按时达成储蓄目标吗？
Am I on pace to hit my savings goal by December?
过去六个月我的旅行开销趋势怎么样？
Or how has my travel spend trended over the last six months?
你想问什么都可以。
You can ask it anything.
Monarch 会帮你分析好几个月的数据，省得你自己操心。
Monarch then analyzes months of data so you don't have to.
借助 AI 洞察，Monarch 还能发现你根本想不到的问题，回答超出了你的提问范围。
And with AI insights, Monarch flags things you don't think to look for, so it can go beyond your question.
现在通过代码 Tim 在 monarch.com 注册，第一年可以享半价优惠。
And now you can get half off of your first year of Monarch with code Tim at monarch.com.
现在用代码 Tim 在 monarch.com 注册，第一年只需 50 美元。
That's just $50 for your first year at Monarch dot com with code Tim.
再说一遍。
One more time.
monarch.com。
Monarch.com.
就是 monarch。
That's monarch.
monarch.com，代码 Tim。
Monarch.com code Tim.
我不是故意抱怨，但早在 2000 年初，我那时候自己做电商，那会儿的工具简直烂透了。
Not to be a salty old dog, but in the early two thousands, back in the day when I was running my own ecommerce business, the tools were atrocious.
它们倒是努力了，但真的太差劲了。
They tried hard, but man was it bad.
你得东拼西凑一大堆东西才能用。
You had to cobble all sorts of stuff together.
我以前连想都不敢想会有 Shopify 这样的平台。
I could only dream of a platform like Shopify.
Shopify 是全球数百万商家背后的电商系统，如今美国每十笔电商交易里，就有一笔是通过 Shopify 完成的。
Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, and now 10% of all ecommerce in The US is on Shopify.
回想起两千年初，那时候根本没人提人工智能这回事。
Now back to the early two thousands, then nobody even thought of AI.
谁能想到，就在过去两年里，人工智能居然能带来这么神奇的变化？
Who could have predicted, even in the last twenty four months, the magic that is now possible with AI?
Shopify 一直走在前沿，内置了大量实用的AI工具，能帮你快速生成商品描述、页面标题，甚至优化产品图片。
Shopify has been ahead of the curve, and they are packed with helpful AI tools that will accelerate everything, write product descriptions, page headlines, even enhance your product photography.
最棒的是，Shopify 还能帮你轻松搞定库存管理、跨境物流、退货处理，方方面面都包了。
Best of all, Shopify expertly handles everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond.
只要你准备好开店，Shopify 就是你的不二之选。
If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify.
现在就去 shopify.com/tim 注册，每月仅一美元，立即开始你的销售之旅。
Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/tim.
再重复一遍。
One more time.
Shopify.com/tim。
Shopify.com/tim.
到2026年，别再等了，马上用Shopify开始卖货吧。
In 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify.
而且
And
如果我回想这个时刻——我一向习惯长远思考，但我的孩子一次次让我看到一些东西。
if I think about this moment, and again, I'm often very long term thinking, but my kids over and over show me things.
将来能真正帮到他们的，会是什么？
What's gonna help them down the road?
我知道，当你二十多岁、三十多岁的时候，真正能让你未来受益的，是亲手做出点什么。
Well, I know when you're in your twenties and thirties, what's really helpful down the road is when you produce something.
也许是件艺术品。
Maybe it's art.
也许是某个项目。
Maybe it's a project.
在别人评价之前，你能先给自己一个客观的评估，这对建立自我认知、缓解焦虑和抑郁非常有帮助。
Being able to give yourself some estimation of that before others do is very helpful to your whole self-concept and protective of anxiety and depression.
我觉得这个项目我做得不错。
I think I did a good job in this project.
确实如此。
It's true.
我还没收到老板的反馈，但有点担心他会怎么说。
I didn't hear back from my boss yet, but I'm a little anxious about what my boss is gonna say.
但别人没给我回话，并不会让我陷入混乱。
But the fact that someone didn't tell me something isn't going to spiral me.
我会想到人们对好工作的渴望、追寻，甚至那种迫切感。
And I think about the yearning and the searching and the desperation for a good job.
如果每次孩子完成一件事，别人总是马上夸他‘干得好’，那他长大后就很难自己肯定自己，反而总等着别人来告诉他‘你够好了’。
Well, if every time my kid produces something, again, what they wire next to that is someone telling them good job, then they go into the world unable to give themselves that type of validation and searching for someone to say they're good enough.
那我更喜欢哪种方式呢？
So what do I like better?
任何能让孩子多分享自己的事情，其实也会让他们感觉更好。
Anything that helps your kid share more about themself actually ends up feeling better to your kid also.
我想起不久之前，我女儿画画，她画了一幅。
So I think about, you know, a little while ago, my daughter paints stuff, and she did.
她把这幅画给了我，而我本人画画可差劲了。
She gave me this painting and just I'm a horrible artist.
所以她画的任何东西，在我眼里都特别棒。
So anything she does is amazing.
但我第一句跟她说的是：你给我讲讲这幅画吧。
But what I said to her first, I said, oh, tell me about the painting.
比如，你为什么选了红色这里？
Like, what made you pick red there?
她就跟我讲了一大段故事，说她以前从来没真正见过红色的警车，等等。
She told me this whole story, this whole story about how she hasn't ever really seen a red police car and whatever it was.
她就跟我分享了她的故事。
It just and she shared her story with me.
我想到孩子交作业的时候也是这样。
Same thing I'm thinking about a kid giving us a paper.
你是怎么想到这个题目的？
Oh, how do you think it had come up with that topic?
你为什么会这样开头？
Oh, what made you start it that way?
写这篇的时候感觉怎么样？
Oh, what was it like writing that?
不管问什么问题都行。
Whatever the questions are.
我知道，一开始听起来可能有点烦人。
And I know it sounds sounds like annoying at first.
我懂。
I get it.
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作为家长，你可能会说：‘真的吗？’
Like, as a parent, you're like, oh, really?
我能直接说句‘干得漂亮’吗？
Can I just say good job?
当然可以。
And of course you can.
不过，我再举个成年人的例子。
But then again, I go to an adult example.
比如说，蒂姆，你把房子重新装修了一遍，对吧？
Like, let's say, Tim, you redid your house, Okay.
我去你家做客，发现你确实花了不少心思。
And I visited, and you really worked hard on it.
我一看就说：‘你这房子真漂亮。’
And I came and go, oh, I love your house.
干得漂亮。
Good job.
这其实很容易把话题聊死。
It's actually kind of a conversation ender.
我觉得你会跟我说声谢谢。
I feel like you'd say to me, thank you.
但要是我换种说法，问你：你是怎么挑出这个墙色和沙发搭配的？
But if instead I said, how did you pick that color wall with that couch?
那你就会说：哦，对啊。
You would oh, okay.
我会跟你详细讲讲，还给你看我的Pinterest收藏夹之类的。
Well, let me tell you and let me show you my Pinterest board or whatever it was.
就算我没说一句‘干得漂亮’，我打赌你心里还是会更开心，甚至比那种简单道谢的感觉还要好。
And even if I never said good job, I bet you would feel more lit up inside and almost better than if I had just kind of ended the conversation that way.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
For sure.
我有不少朋友。
I have a number of friends.
我是说，我认识很多有孩子的朋友，但有一个特别突出的，我就不点名了，他在这方面特别在行，是我见过的学东西最快的人之一。
I mean, I have a lot of friends with kids, but one who comes to mind, I'm not gonna name him, but he's very good at this and one of the best learners of any skill I've ever met.
他真是个了不起的人。
He's just an incredible human.
他还有一件事，那会儿连《坚毅》这类书都还没出来，我觉得那本书是安吉拉·达克沃斯写的。
The other thing that he did, and this was even prior to books like Grit, I think that's Angela Duckworth.
他从不说‘干得好’，而是会说点别的——我举个例子，这话说法是我现编的。
But instead of saying good job, another thing he would do is say something I'm making this up as an example.
他会说：‘我真为你骄傲。’
But he would be like, I'm so proud of you.
他会强调你付出了多少努力，看重的是过程，而不是结果。
You worked so hard on that to reinforce the effort, the process over the outcome.
没错。
That's right.
这听起来挺有道理的。
Which seems to make sense.
对吧？
Right?
你并不是在说，你的方法是唯一正确、绝对完美的路径，它其实可以和其他方式结合使用。
And you're not suggesting your path is the one only toolkit of purity and redemption in the sense that it can combine with other things.
只要真正理解了这些基本原则，它们是可以灵活调整的。
But the first principles are adaptable as long as you understand what those principles are.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得每个家长，有时候都会忍不住说一句：干得不错。
I think that every parent, some percentage of the time be like, great job.
挺好的。
That's cool.
太棒了。
That's awesome.
好的。
Okay.
但这些问题，比如重视过程而非结果，让孩子讲讲他们的经历，让他们自己说出来。
But those questions, process over product, asking for a kid's story, asking them to tell you.
一旦开始了，就会变得容易很多。
Once you get started, it's easier.
而且，确实，这种方式更关注孩子能掌控的部分。
And, yes, it actually focuses on what's more in a kid's control.
让孩子们即使拿不到满分，也能对自己感到满意，这其实是一种莫大的福气。
And then setting up your kids to feel good about themselves even if they're not always getting a 100 is just such a massive privilege.
这反而会让他们更努力，因为他们关注的是自己的付出和过程，而不只是结果。
And it actually makes them work harder because they're focused on their effort and process instead of just on a result.
你觉得父母把目标定为让孩子开心、一味追求幸福，这种做法怎么样？
What is your opinion of parents focusing or viewing their job as making their kids happy, optimizing for happiness.
对吧？
Right?
谁会反对幸福呢？
Because who's gonna poo poo happiness?
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，我听起来就是这样。
I mean, sounds I will.
好吧。
Alright.
那我们来深入探讨一下。
So let's wade into the deep waters.
这话人们经常随口一说。
It's something people say as a throwaway comment.
比如我丈夫，每次出去参加聚餐，总会开玩笑说。
Like, my husband always jokes when when you're out, like, a dinner party.
你就是希望孩子开心就行了。
He's almost like, you just want your kids to be happy.
对吧？
Right?
他会看着我，心里想：贝基，别破坏这美好的时刻。
And he'll look at me and think, Becky, please don't ruin this perfectly nice moment.
别扫兴。
Don't take
别上钩。
Don't take the bait.
但我总是忍不住。
And I always do.
是的。
Yeah.
不是。
No.
我觉得当父母的职责不是非要让孩子开心。
I very much would say a parent's job is not to make get happy.
而且again，因为我们很难接受复杂性，人们就会问：你希望孩子不开心吗？
And again, because we struggle to hold multiplicity, people will say, you want your kids to be unhappy?
当然不是。
No.
我绝对不是故意让孩子不开心。
I definitely don't try to make my kids unhappy.
我只是想说，你可能不太喜欢接下来我要说的。
I just stop to say you're not gonna like this maybe.
为什么大家这么容易较真，动不动就想吵架呢？
Like, why are people so stupid and just, like, wanna fight?
其实你根本不是那个意思，对吧？
It's like, obviously, you don't mean that.
我们总是非黑即白地看问题。
We think in these extremes.
这种思维在各个方面都能看到。
We see that in all areas.
在这个世界上，同时接受两种看似矛盾的观点，或者保持一种微妙的平衡，正变得越来越难，所以我们更需要在家庭里培养这些观念。
And holding two things as true or holding nuance is increasingly hard in this world, which is why it's even more important to kind of have some of these ideas in our homes.
你用了‘优化’这个词，我确实经常在想这个问题。
So you use the word optimizing, and I think about that a lot.
如果从更长远的角度来看‘内在良好’这个理念，我觉得我们的育儿方式本质上是一种着眼长远的策略。
So zooming out against again, about kind of Good Inside in general is I would say our parenting approach is just very long term greedy.
对。
Mhmm.
因为我很清楚，孩子们将来离开家的时间，会远远长于他们住在家里的时间。
Because I just think my kids are gonna be out of my house for way longer than they're in my house.
他们将来是否愿意和我保持联系，这个决定权在他们手里，而且会持续很久，远超过他们现在被‘困’在我身边的这段时间。
They're gonna choose whether they want to be in a relationship with me way longer than they're locked into a relationship with me.
不管他们八岁、十岁还是十七岁时，事情看起来多么重要，我们都知道，人生中的关键时刻只会越来越重大。
And however high the stakes feel when they're eight and 10 and 17, we know the stakes in life just get higher.
所以当我们说要让孩子开心时，其实我们真正想表达的是：我更看重孩子当下的舒适。
And so when we think about making our kids happy, what we're actually saying is I am prioritizing my kids' short term ease.
我是在短期内让孩子们的生活变得轻松舒适。
I am making my kids' life easy and comfortable in the short term.
但问题在于，这不是偶尔一次两次这么做，而是形成一种模式后，实际上限制了孩子认为自己能应对的情绪范围。
And what ends up happening, not when you do that a couple times, but as a pattern, is you actually narrow the range of emotions kids believe they can cope with.
完全正确。
100%.
当然。
For sure.
在伴侣关系里也是如此。
True in partnerships too.
在亲密关系里也是这样。
True in Yes.
总之，很多关系都是这样。
Anyway lot of relationships.
结果就是，长大的孩子会变得异常焦虑。
You end up having adults who are remarkably anxious.
所以，一味追求孩子的快乐，反而会让他们长大后充满焦虑。
So prioritizing happiness for kids leads to adulthood full of a ton of anxiety.
因为你替他们挡掉了各种情绪体验，他们就没机会建立起信心，不知道自己能应对这些复杂的情绪。
Because you're protecting them from a broader band of emotional exposure, and so they don't develop the confidence that they can handle those broader ranges.
有时候我得对自己说点夸张的话，才能逼自己去做那些很难但对孩子有益的事。
I have to sometimes use hyperbolic language with myself to, like, really get me to do something that's hard, but I think good for my kids.
比如看到孩子被排除在社交活动之外，或者小组作业时所有朋友都是一组，只有他被分到别组，又或者他拼图拼得很吃力。
Like, I see my kid, you know, who's left out of a social event or who, oh, got the school project in a group where all of his friends are together and my kid is the only one not with his friends, or my kid is struggling to do a puzzle.
我会提醒自己：贝基，别剥夺孩子发现自身能力的机会。
And one of the things I say to myself is, Becky, do not deprive my child of finding their capability.
别把它拿走。
Do not steal it.
别抢走他们的能力。
Do not steal their capability.
孩子做简单的事，是不会觉得自己有能力的。
A kid doesn't feel capable when they do something easy.
孩子即使在做困难的事时，也感受不到自己有能力。
A kid doesn't even feel capable when they're doing something hard.
孩子只有在亲眼看到自己熬过特别难的事、最终挺过来之后，才会真正建立起能力感。
Kids develop capability after watching themselves survive something that was really difficult and just get through it.
所以如果我对孩子说：‘我来给学校打电话，帮你换小组吧。’
And so if I say to my kid, I'll call the school, and I'll switch the school group for you.
‘我来帮你拼这个拼图吧，我实在不想看你崩溃。’
Oh, Oh, I'll do that puzzle for you because I just don't wanna deal with you having a meltdown.
不是一次两次，而是反复这么做。
Not once, but over and over.
我实际上是在剥夺他们的能力。
I'm actually stealing their capability.
能力才是缓解焦虑的良方。
Capability really is the antidote to anxiety.
往后想想，当我的孩子步入社会时，还有什么比‘我相信自己能在各种复杂情境中应对自如’更重要呢？而不是只活在那种狭窄、被层层保护的舒适圈里。
And going forward, when I think about my kids going into the world, what's more important than feeling like I can be capable in a wide range, not very narrow, bubbled cushion range of situations?
什么叫作一个坚韧的领导者？
What does it mean to be a sturdy leader?
我特别喜欢‘坚韧’这个词。
I love the word sturdy.
有些词我就是喜欢，虽然我是心理学家，词汇量不小，但我其实思考方式特别形象。
Like, there are certain words I love because even though I'm a psychologist and I have a lot of words to say, I actually think very visually.
对我来说，真正说得通的词，都能唤起一种我能感受到的情绪。
And to me, the words that make sense evoke an emotion that I can access.
‘坚韧’这个词就正好让我有这种感觉。
The word sturdy just does that for me.
再说一遍，我们希望CEO是坚韧的。
And again, I think sturdy leadership is what we want in a CEO.
我们希望伴侣是坚韧的。
It's what we want in a partner.
我们希望教练也是坚韧的。
It's what we want in a coach.
这在飞行员身上也一样重要。
It's definitely what we want in a pilot.
所以你是说可靠、靠得住？
So does that mean reliable, dependable?
我觉得可以从几个角度来理解。
I think there's a couple ways.
一个稳重的领导者，既懂得设界限，也懂得与你建立联结。
I think it's a leader who is equally boundaried as they are connected to you.
他们同样也清楚地知道自己是谁。
They're actually equally as connected to themselves.
我真正想要的是什么？
What do I want?
我的价值观是什么？
What are my values?
我的局限在哪里？
What are my limitations?
就像他们能够与你建立连接一样。
As they are able to connect to you.
你可能和我不一样，但我能听见、理解你的价值观、需求和感受。
Oh, you might be different, but I'm able to hear and understand your values and wants and feelings.
在我看来，把这些变成一套可操作的技能，关键就在于懂得如何设立界限。
And to me, the way that can get kind of operationalized as a kind of really set of skills is you know how to set boundaries.
我觉得大多数人对界限的理解完全错了。
And I think most people get boundaries completely wrong.
我知道怎么设立并坚守界限。
So I know how to set and hold boundaries.
同时，我也能与他人建立连接，认可他们的情感体验。
And at the same time, I'm able to connect to and validate other people's emotional experiences.
这两点才是稳固领导力的两大支柱。
Those are the two pillars of sturdy leadership.
你能给我们举个具体的例子吗？
Could you paint a scenario for us?
你有很多现成的应对方法，大家遇到事情都会来找你请教该怎么做。
You have great scripts and people come to you for scripts.
不一定要逐字逐句地照搬，但你能不能给我们模拟一个具体的场景，展示一下什么是真正的稳重和坚定？
Doesn't have to be a verbatim script, but could you just walk us through a hypothetical situation that exemplifies someone being sturdy in
就像这样？
this way?
我觉得有时候最好的解释方式，其实可以用这个飞行员比喻来说明。
I think sometimes the best way to do it is actually in this pilot metaphor.
我先回答这个问题，然后再转到
Can I do that first and then I'll move to a
咱们聊聊飞行员的事？
Let's get into the pilots?
好的。
Okay.
那你真的是飞行员吗？
So are you actually a pilot?
我一点都不觉得意外。
It wouldn't surprise me.
我不是飞行员。
I'm not a pilot.
我也说不清为什么。
I don't know why.
我确实降落过飞机，但我不是飞行员。
I have landed a plane, but I'm not a pilot.
萨利。
Sully.
就是他。
Right there.
我明白你说的是萨利。
I got Sully.
好的。
Okay.
这里有好多事情。
Here are many things.
对。
Yeah.
不是。
No.
我绝对不是你想要的那种稳重的飞行员。
Don't I'm definitely not the sturdy pilot you want.
所以，我确实不是飞行员。
So I'm definitely not a pilot.
你明白吧？
You know?
你坐飞机的时候，遇到剧烈颠簸，特别害怕。
You're a passenger on a flight, and there's, let's say, a lot of turbulence, and you're very scared.
你甚至可能环顾四周，发现大家都很害怕。
And maybe even you look around and everyone's pretty scared.
我觉得乘务员广播里会传来三种不同类型的飞行员讲话方式。
I think there's three versions of a pilot that you might hear come over the loudspeaker.
而这三种方式，恰恰完美地对应了三种不同的育儿风格。
And I actually think they perfectly exemplify three different versions of parenting.
这是第一种飞行员。
So here's pilot one.
大家都别叫了。
Everyone stop screaming.
你们小题大做，害得我没法集中精神，搞砸了一切，再这么喊下去，你们的常旅客里程全得被取消。
You're making a big deal out of nothing, and I can't focus, and you ruin everything, and you're just gonna all have your frequent flyer miles taken away if you keep screaming.
大概就是这种语气。
Something like that.
这可真让人安心不起来。
Not super reassuring.
确实不让人安心。
Not reassuring.
作为乘客，这种被否定的感觉让我有点担心：飞行员是不是根本不知道现在在颠簸？
And the invalidation there as a passenger for me almost makes me worried, does the pilot not know it's turbulent?
天啊，我尖叫和害怕，居然会让飞行员对我产生负面反应。
And oh my goodness, me screaming and being scared is enough to make the pilot kind of freak out at me.
这感觉真的很不好。
Like, that actually doesn't feel good.
好像我的情绪传染给了飞行员，搞得他们也慌了神。
It feels like I was contagious to the pilot, and they couldn't handle the situation.
好吧。
Okay.
这就是第一种飞行员的做法。
That's pilot one.
这就跟我们对孩子说‘你再不听话，下次就没甜点吃了’一个意思。
That's like when we say to her kids, if you don't listen to me the next time, you're losing dessert.
你太没礼貌了。
You're so rude.
你不准打你妹妹，每次家庭旅行都被你搞砸。
You can't hit your sister, and you ruin every family vacation.
我们动不动就对孩子们大喊大叫，还威胁些根本不会兑现的事。
Whatever we kind of just scream at our kids and we threaten things that, by the way, we never follow-up on.
我们随便惩罚孩子，其实根本不知道该怎么管。
And we just dole out punishment because we don't really know what to do.
那就是一号飞行员。
That's pilot one.
二号飞行员则完全是另一个极端。
Pilot two is almost the opposite extreme.
大家都吓坏了，你说得对。
Like, everyone's scared and it is you're right.
确实颠簸得厉害。
It is really turbulent.
我也不太清楚。
And I don't know.
我现在就把驾驶舱的门打开。
I'm just gonna open up the cockpit door.
如果你们当中有人会开飞机，那就进来接手吧。
And if any of you know how to pilot the plane, just come on in and take over.
到了这时候，你不再怕颠簸了，反而怕得要命——因为这个飞行员是你。
And at this point, you're no longer scared of turbulence, and you're just terrified that this person is your pilot.
对吧？
Right?
因为发生了某种融合。
Because there's this merger.
我的焦虑变成了你的焦虑，你就在我面前彻底垮了。
My overwhelm became your overwhelm, and you just melted in front of me.
这太吓人了。
That is so scary.
我们真正需要的飞行员，是个沉着稳重的领导者，他大概会这么说。
The pilot we wanna hear is the sturdy leader, and they'd probably say something like this.
我听见你在喊叫。
I hear you screaming.
这很合理。
That makes sense.
现在颠簸得厉害。
It's very turbulent.
这种事我经历过无数次了。
And I've done this a million times.
我知道自己在做什么。
I know what I'm doing.
让你害怕的事，对我来说根本不算什么。
What scares you does not scare me.
我现在关掉广播，回去开飞机了，洛杉矶地面见。
And so I'm gonna get off the loudspeaker and go back to piloting the plane, and I'll see you on the ground in Los Angeles.
有意思的是，我觉得你可能会想，如果自己是那个乘客，就算颠簸程度一样，也会感觉没那么紧张。
And what's crazy is I think you think about a passenger in that situation, and I'm gonna guess even if the turbulence was the same, they feel calmer.
真正有担当的领导者会告诉你：我明白你正在经历什么。
Because what a sturdy leader really does is they say to you, I see what's happening for you.
我承认你的感受是真实的，但这些感受不会把我压垮。
I see your feelings as real, and your feelings don't overwhelm me.
这里有一条清晰的界限。
There's a boundary.
我能理解你的感受并与之共鸣，同时依然保持自己的立场。
I can see yours as real and connect to them while I can maintain a separate connection for myself.
我们之间就像隔着一个驾驶舱。
And there's kind of this cockpit between us.
这就像是对你的孩子说：唉，你因为不让你早餐吃冰淇淋而闹脾气。
That's like saying to your kid, ugh, you know, they're having a meltdown because you say no to ice cream for breakfast.
对吧？
Right?
然后你说：唉，你真的很想早餐吃冰淇淋。
And you say, ugh, you really wanted ice cream for breakfast.
我明白。
I get it.
真好吃。
It's so yummy.
但这真的不行，宝贝。
And that's not an option, sweetie.
你可以吃华夫饼。
You can have a waffle.
你可以吃麦片。
You can have cereal.
等你决定好了告诉我。
Let me know when you wanna make a decision.
当我这么做的时候，家长会说：这招不管用。
And when I model that, parent will say, it's not working.
这招不管用。
It's not working.
我就想问，什么叫‘没用’啊？
I'm like, what do mean it's not working?
我孩子还是在尖叫。
Well, my kid still screams.
我想到我当飞行员的时候，说我的广播没效果。
I'm just thinking about my pilot saying, my announcement didn't work.
乘客们还是害怕颠簸。
My passengers are still scared of the turbulence.
你能想象吗？
Like, can you imagine?
他们还害怕，这有什么关系呢？
Who cares, like, in a way that they're still scared?
他们的反应并不能衡量你做得好不好，要是这么定义，很容易搞混自己的角色，那就会惹出大麻烦。
Their reaction is not a barometer for whether you are doing a good job, and defining it that way can get into real role confusion can get us into a lot of trouble.
你说的‘角色混淆’是什么意思？
What do you mean by role confusion?
我觉得每个家长都希望把孩子教育好。
Well, I think every parent wants to do a good job.
但每次我跟家长聊天，发现孩子动不动就发脾气、没礼貌，我就会问他们：在这种情况下，你的职责到底是什么？
But over and over, when I talk to parents and their kids are tantruming all the time, and they're rude, whatever it is, I'll say to them, what is your job in this situation?
结果他们都说：我完全不知道。
And all of them say, I have no idea.
可要是换到公司里，比如我在Good Inside当CEO，对员工说：今天好好干。
But again, I go to the workplace and I imagine someone at Good Inside, like, as a company showing up and me as CEO saying, do a good job today.
然后人家说：可我没有岗位说明啊。
And then saying, but I don't have a job description.
我还会说：你就好好干呗。
I'd be like, do a good job.
他们会回我：贝基，你连我具体该做什么都不知道，我怎么好好干？我还得知道别人是干嘛的。
They say, Becky, I cannot do a good job if I don't know what my job is, and I need to know what that person's job is.
这样才能分清谁该做什么，谁不该插手。
So I know what they're doing versus what I'm doing.
这完全说得通。
That's totally fair.
所以我觉得，作为父母，如果你不清楚自己的职责，就很难做好。
So I think as a parent, if you don't know what your job is, you can't do a good job.
我所说的角色混乱，首先就是你对自己的职责不够清晰。
And what role confusion what I mean by that is number one, you don't have clarity on your job.
因为任何听到这段话的父母，想想那些棘手的情况——孩子不礼貌、睡不好、撒谎，你的角色到底是什么？
Because I think any parent listening to this, if you think about any tricky situation, my kid's rude, my kid's not sleeping, my kid's lying, what is my job in the situation?
如果你连这一点都不清楚，那至少你得从这里开始。
If you don't know that with clarity, that's at least your starting point.
而且很多时候，父母会让孩子替我们完成本该由我们承担的责任。
And often as parents, we ask our kid to do our job for us.
你能不能给个具体的职责描述例子？
What would you offer as a sample job description?
绝大多数情况下，父母的职责就这两条：设定界限。
Almost always, our jobs are those two things, setting boundaries.
界限就是我们设定的限制。
Boundaries are limits we set.
这些都是我们做出的决定。
They're decisions we make.
有时候，尤其是孩子还小的时候，这些限制是实实在在的物理干预。
And sometimes, especially when our kids are younger, they're truly they're physical.
比如拦住孩子别冲到马路上，或者孩子发脾气时抱起他离开公园——哪怕他根本不乐意。
They're stopping my kid from running into the street or picking my kid up and leaving the park because they're having a meltdown even though my kid doesn't wanna be doing that.
这些才是真正的界限。
Those are boundaries.
另一面则是看到坏行为背后那个好孩子，用这种方式去和孩子建立连接。
The other side is always seeing the good kid under the bad behavior and connecting to my kid in that way.
举个具体的例子。
Here's a good example.
我经常听到有人说：‘我孩子压根不听人说话。’
I hear all the time, my kid doesn't listen to anything.
我说什么他都听不进去。
My kid doesn't listen to anything I say.
比如，他正跳在沙发上，旁边就是玻璃茶几。
For example, my kid is jumping on the couch right near a glass table.
快从沙发上下来。
Get off the couch.
别在沙发上跳了。
Stop jumping on the couch.
他就是不听。
They don't listen.
我说了别在沙发上跳。
I say stop jumping on the couch.
我还说，如果你到我数到三还没下来，我就没收你的甜点。
And then I say, if you don't get off the couch by the time I count to three, I'm gonna take away your dessert.
但我最后也没真没收，怕晚上闹得更厉害。
And then I don't really take away the dessert because I don't wanna melt down later that night.
这种事太常见了。
Like, this is so common.
听上去像是
Sounds like
一团糟。
sounds like a mess.
没错。
Right.
确实一团糟。
It's a mess.
首先，我想问问，你的工作是什么？
So number one, I would say, what is your job?
我想他们会说，我就是在尽我的本分。
Again, I think they would say I'm doing my job.
我就是想让孩子从沙发上下来。
I'm trying to get my kid off the couch.
但你其实是让你的孩子替你完成你的责任。
But you're asking your kid to do your job for you.
你看着孩子做不出明智的决定。
You're watching your kid not able to make a good decision.
这是你疼爱的孩子。
This is your kid who you like.
你本该帮他们确保安全，却反而让他们去做一件他们明明已经表现出做不到的事。
And instead of helping them be safe, you're asking them to do something they're showing you they can't do.
那你会怎么做呢？
So what would you potentially do?
很好。
Great.
那我们开始吧。
So let's start.
在说清楚什么是界限之前，我根本没法回答这个问题。
I can't even answer that without saying what's a boundary.
因为我觉得这位家长根本没有设立界限。
Because that parent I would say is not setting boundaries.
这一点不管对孩子还是其他情况都成立。
And this is true separate from kids.
把界限理解为一直遵守的规则，这样想公平吗？
Is it fair to think about boundaries as rules you follow consistently?
不过我想，事情可能没那么简单，应该更有讲究。
Or is I guess there's probably more nuance to that.
这么说吧，我觉得可以这么理解，但不算特别实用或有帮助的定义。
I mean, I guess I think it's fair to say, but I would say it's not the most actionable, helpful definition.
明白了。
Okay.
好吧。
So Alright.
很好。
Great.
对我来说，边界就是我告诉别人我会做什么，而不需要对方做任何事。
To me, my definition of boundaries, boundaries are things you tell people you will do, and they require the other person to do nothing.
这个定义有两个关键点，特别重要。
That's a really important dual kind of definition.
比如说，我会跟我孩子这么说，当然也可以是对同事或者任何人。
It's something I tell let's say it's my kid, although it could be your colleague or anyone.
我会告诉孩子，我会怎么做。
It's what I tell my kid I will do.
这其实是在表达我的主动权。
That's an assertion of my power.
这就是我会做的事。
It's what I will do.
我不会让四岁的孩子不听话就毁掉我一整天。
I'm not letting my day be ruined by my four year old not listening.
我太在乎自己，也太在乎孩子，不会让这种情况发生。
I just like myself and my kid too much to do that.
所以，界限就是我告诉孩子我会做的事，而它的成功不需要孩子做任何事。
So boundary is something I tell my kid I will do, and its success requires my kid to do nothing.
从沙发上起来。
Get off the couch.
从沙发上起来。
Get off the couch.
我不是在说我会做什么，而是要求孩子必须做点什么才算成功。
I'm not telling my kid what I will do, and it requires them to do something to be successful.
这等于完全放弃了你自己的主动权。
It's a complete giving away of your power.
没错。
Right.
但这一点常常让人意外，因为很多人以为‘Good Inside’就是那种温和放任的育儿方式。
Versus and this surprises people because too often, I think Good Inside, we get lumped in with, like, soft permissive parenting.
这跟放任一点关系都没有。
This is 0% permissive.
设定界限的同时认可孩子的感受，保持坚定的样子大概是这样的。
Setting a boundary and validating my kid's feelings, being sturdy would sound like this.
等我跟孩子说：嘿。
Once I tell my kid, hey.
从沙发上下来。
Get off the couch.
如果他没动，我会说：你看。
If they don't, I'd say, look.
我这就走过去找你。
I'm gonna walk over to you.
等我走到你身边时，如果你还坐在沙发上，我就一把抱住你。
And if by the time I get there, you're not off the couch, I will put my arms around you.
把你抱起来。
I'll pick you up.
把你放到地上，因为我的首要任务是保证你的安全，靠近那个玻璃茶几跳来跳去实在太危险了。
I'll put you on the floor because my number one job is to keep you safe, and it's just not safe to, you know, jump near that glass table.
好的。
Okay.
在我自己家里，孩子还小的时候，我会走过去跟他们说，但很多人有个误解。
Now in my own house, when my kids were younger, I'd go over to my kid, and people have this illusion.
你以为你这么一说，孩子就会自己从沙发上下来。
So you do this, and then your kid just gets off the couch.
不会。
No.
根本不会。
No.
他们不会听的。
They don't.
你得这么做。
You do this.
你得走过去。
You get over there.
如果你的孩子很正常，他会直视你的眼睛，继续蹦蹦跳跳。
If you have a normal child, they're gonna look you in the eye and keep jumping up and down.
不是因为他不尊重你，而是他还不会控制自己的冲动。
Not because they don't respect you, just because they haven't learned how to control their impulses yet.
所以我就会按我的方式来。
So then I would do my job.
我会伸出手臂。
I would put my arm.
好。
Okay.
我现在把你抱起来。
I'm gonna pick you up now.
然后把你放回地上。
I'm gonna put them on the ground.
他们不会看着你说：谢谢你这么稳重地管教我。
They will not look at you and say, thank you for your sturdy leadership.
你太棒了。
You're so amazing.
我真的很需要这句话。
I really needed that.
谢谢你拒绝了我。
Thank you for saying no.
他们会大喊大叫。
They will scream.
但只要你理解了这种当父母的视角，你就能设立界限。
But actually, when you understand this kind of parent's job visual, you set a boundary.
每次你设立界限，孩子都会不开心，直到他们慢慢适应为止。
Every time you set a boundary, your kid's gonna get upset until they get a little more used to it.
但这是因为，当你设限的时候，你其实就是告诉孩子：你不能做你特别想做的事。
But that's because when you set a boundary, you're basically just telling your kid you can't do something you want to do.
人嘛，被拦着不能做想做的事，本来就会觉得不爽。
Humans feel upset when they're stopped from doing things they want to do all the time.
他们生气了，但这反而让你能完成工作的第二部分。
They get upset, and it actually allows you to do the second part of your job.
于是我抱起我的孩子。
So I pick my kid up.
他们大喊：不要。
They scream, no.
放我下来。
Put me down.
我讨厌你。
I hate you.
不管他们在这种状态下说什么。
Whatever they say in this state.
然后我可以叹口气说：
And then I can say, ugh.
你真的很想跳到沙发上。
You really wanna jump on the couch.
你真不想在地板上跳吧。
You really don't wanna jump on the floor.
太无聊了。
It's so boring.
我这么说的时候，可一点都没打算让娃再上沙发——他们肯定会试，但我手已经准备好拦住他们了。
Again, when I say that, that doesn't mean for one instant that I let my kid back on the couch, what they will try to do, and my hands will be ready to block them.
不行。
Nope.
我不会让你这么做的。
I'm not gonna let you do that.
我觉得这在任何关系里都是个颠覆性的理念。
This is where I think it really is this revolutionary idea in any relationship.
我可以既坚定，又和对方保持真正的连接。
I can be equally strong and equally connected to someone else.
这才是真正的坚韧，才是真正把事做对了。
And that's true sturdiness and really doing our job.
我想问问你，关于做好这份工作的另一个方面，但你不能全信网上看到的东西。
I want to ask you about perhaps another facet of doing your job, but you can't trust everything you read on the Internet.
所以我换种方式来问这个问题。
So I will ask this question in the following way.
这是你一个工作坊参与者的说法。
This is from a participant in one of your workshops.
对。
Mhmm.
他们把你的方法形容为：帮助人的神经系统学会应对作为一个人在世上的种种挑战。
And they described your approach as one of, quote, coaching a nervous system to cope with being a human in the world, end quote.
这个说法准确吗？
Is that a fair description?
我们做的就是这个吗？
What we do?
是的。
Yeah.
或者你会说，还不太准确。
Or would you say, not quite.
差那么一点。
Close but a miss.
我喜欢这个说法，因为它比大多数人最初来找我们的原因更贴近本质。
What I love about that is it captures something that's so much more true than why most people initially come to us.
他们来找我们，是因为孩子发脾气、睡不好、不礼貌、叛逆。
They come to us because their kids are having tantrums, their kids aren't sleeping, their kids are being rude, their kids are being defiant.
但他们最终收获的，是自己内心变得更坚韧，同时学会从一开始就把这些传递给孩子。
And what they end up getting is they themselves get rewiring to be sturdier in the world while they learn how to give that to their kids from the start.
所以我觉得这个说法挺接近的。
So I think that that's close.
是的。
Yeah.
这其实是在呼应我之前在这段对话里提到的内容。
I mean, that's referring back to what I've mentioned earlier in this conversation.
这和我之前接触过的很多理念都非常契合，尤其是在Good Inside这个理念里，孩子确实是核心。
It's really simpatico with so many other things that I've been exposed to, but you're it seems like with Good Inside, in the child is yes.
你是在和孩子互动。
You're interacting with the child.
没错。
Yes.
其中一个目标是成为更好的父母，建立更深的联结，做一名更有定力的引导者。
One of the objectives is to become a better parent and be more connected and be a sturdy leader.
而你的孩子就像一面镜子，让你通过他们来反思和成长自己。
And your child is also a mirror and a medium through which you get to work on yourself.
如果你自己情绪失控了，那会怎样呢？
Because if you're dysregulated, guess what?
你又怎么能指望孩子保持平静呢？
Like, how can you expect your kid Yeah.
对吧？
To be regulated?
有些人肯定会反感这一点，因为我很清楚，人类的孩子不是狗。
And, I mean, some people are gonna hate this because I recognize that human children are not dogs.
但举个例子，有本特别好的书。
But for instance, there's a great book.
关于训狗的书烂大街了，有一本标题不太讨喜，叫《别朝狗开枪》，作者是凯伦·普赖尔。
There's so many terrible books on dog training, but one which has terrible title unfortunately called Don't Shoot the Dog is written by Karen Pryor.
她把海豚训练用的点击器技术引入了狗狗的行为塑造。
She took clicker training from marine mammals and brought it over to shaping behavior with dogs.
点击器训练就是，当你看到狗狗做出正确行为时，就点击一下作为标记，然后立刻给奖励，这样能精准地引导它朝对的方向发展。
So clicker training is when you click to reward a certain behavior or getting directionally moving towards the right behavior, and then you're able to sort of time mark that and offer reward.
但我提这个，并不是说你应该用点击器来训练孩子。
But the reason I'm bringing this up is not that you should use clicker training with humans.
我试过，纯属开玩笑。
I've tried that as a joke.
结果完全搞砸了。
It generally lands really poorly.
但她反复强调，大多数狗狗的问题其实都是主人的问题。
But rather, she reinforces over and over again why most dog problems are actually owner problems.
你必须保持一致。
And you need to be consistent.
如果你想塑造行为，就得非常非常一致——我知道这可能会引发争议，但她的方法里，主要靠奖励，而不是惩罚。
If you are trying to shape behavior, you also need to be very, very consistent with and I know this might open up some debate, but rewards, generally not punishments in her approach.
几乎完全是正面强化。
It's almost all positive reinforcement.
比如，虽然她今天没来，但我养了一只训练得很好的狗。
And when I see, for instance I mean, she's not here today, but I have a very well trained dog.
我对训狗的重复性挺能耐受的，说实话，还觉得特别放松。
And I have some tolerance for the monotony of dog training, and I find it very soothing, actually.
但当我看到那些因为从小没接受训练、现在行为出问题的狗，主人却急得又打又骂，我就觉得，这根本就是主人的问题。
But when I see dogs that are misbehaving because they were never trained early on, and then their owners are freaking out, maybe hitting them, being really abusive, I'm like, that is an owner problem.
这根本不是狗的问题。
That's not a dog problem.
我猜在育儿方面也经常出现类似的情况，肯定有。
And I have to imagine they're probably similar examples in parenting, and there must be.
我大儿子曾经说过一句话，他可能没觉得有多深刻，但这句话一直留在我心里。
My oldest son said something once that I don't think he meant to be as profound, but it's something that sticks with me a lot.
有一次我们在车里，我丈夫以为是我儿子关的门，结果不是，他一倒车，车就被车库门夹住了。
And it goes kind of problem blame where we're in a situation in the car and essentially, my husband thought my son had closed the door, and he didn't and kind of backed out the car and the car got caught in the garage the door.
总之，他当时对儿子说了点什么。
Anyway and he kinda said something to my son.
我儿子就回了一句：这不怪我。
And my son just said, it's not my fault.
我丈夫就问：那怪我咯？
And my husband said, so it's my fault?
我儿子那时候大概八岁，他说：有时候事情搞砸了，其实谁都不怪。
And my son said, I think he was, I don't know, eight at the time, he goes, you know, sometimes bad things happen and it's nobody's fault.
我觉得对当父母的来说，这句话永远都对。
And I think for parents, this is always true.
比如，当孩子特别挣扎的时候，这是孩子的错吗？
Like, when your kid is really struggling, is it a kid's fault?
是父母的错吗？
Is it a parent's fault?
我们总是纠结于谁该负责。
Like, we're obsessed with fault.
为什么非得要追究谁的错呢？
Why is it anybody's kind of fault?
我常对父母说，孩子现在这样挣扎，并不是你的错。
I always say to parents, it's not your fault your kid's struggling the way they are.
责怪这种思路根本没用。
Fault's just not a useful framework.
你是这个家的引领者。
You are the leader of your home.
假如一家大公司里所有员工都状态不好，你不会直接从基层员工开始干预吧。
And if all the associates in some big company, you know, were struggling, I don't think you would start an intervention at the associate level.
领导者会说，好吧。
Leadership would say, okay.
不是你的错，但你是负责人。
Not our fault, but like, we're the leaders.
那我们该怎么做呢？
So what are we gonna do?
而且我
And I
不是你的错，但这是你的责任。
your fault, but it's your responsibility.
责任。
Responsibility.
没错。
Exactly.
还有一点，我觉得当我们成为父母时，孩子的困扰并不只是他们的错，也不只是我们的错，但我看到一个更积极的视角：如果你愿意把这当成一段旅程，通过孩子，你会真正了解自己，了解自己的童年。
And the other thing is I think when we become parents, it's not just like our kids' problems are our fault or our problems, but I see a much more hopeful framework where through your kids, if you wanna take this on as a journey, you will learn everything you ever needed to know about yourself, your own childhood.
顺便说一句，你会看到你伴侣的童年在你眼前重演。
By the way, you watch your partner's childhood play out.
你就会想，原来他是这么长大的。
You're like, oh, that's how you were raised.
我现在明白了。
I see it now.
这里面有太多需要学习的东西了。
And there's so much learning.
对吧？
Right?
这真的不容易。
And that's hard.
学习本身就是一件难事。
Learning is hard.
成长更是不容易。
Growth is hard.
这其实是个难得的机会，而不是把孩子的问题归咎于自己或当成自己的责任。
And it is kind of this amazing opportunity rather than my kid's problem being my fault or my problem.
这其实是每个人都能从中受益的机会。
It could be like, there is an opportunity for everyone here.
MGI 是什么？
What is the MGI?
我特别喜欢这种缩写词。
I love a good acronym.
我读临床心理学博士的时候，总能听到一些特别出色的人演讲，我和同学们听完都会说，太棒了。
So when I was in my clinical psychology PhD program, I'd always hear these amazing people speak, and I'd go with my classmates and be like, that was amazing.
对，确实很棒。
And I say, yes.
真的很了不起。
It's amazing.
但接下来我们该做点什么？
But what are we gonna do about it?
我就会问，你这话是什么意思？
And I'd be like, what do mean?
你好好想想。
Just think about it.
我不喜欢光有想法却没有行动。
I really don't love thoughts without actions.
我就想知道，好吧。
I just like to know, okay.
那我具体该怎么做？
Well, what do I do?
我该怎么把这好想法落实下去？
How do I action on this great idea?
在我看来，孩子也好，我们每个人，内在的本质都是好的，和行为是分开的。
And to me, this idea that your kid, all of us, we are good inside identity separate from behavior.
这个观点很有力量，但我觉得它还不够具体，不好操作。
It's a very powerful idea, but I don't find it as actionable as I would like.
所以对我来说，实践这个想法的方法就是MGI这个概念。
So to me, the way to action on that idea is this idea of MGI.
而我觉得，这在我们所有的关系中都适用。
And to me, this is something in all of our relationships.
哪怕事情已经发生了，到了晚上，我们也可以问自己。
Even if it's just after the fact, at the end of the day, we can ask ourselves.
MGI就是最善意的解读。
An MGI just stands for most generous interpretation.
对于孩子的行为、同事的行为、队友的行为，我能给出的最善意的解读是什么？
What is the most generous interpretation I can come up with of my kid's behavior, of my colleague's behavior, my teammate's behavior?
因为我觉得，我们通常都会不自觉地选择最坏的解读。
Because I think what happens naturally is we default to the LGI, the least generous interpretation.
比如你看到孩子当面撒了一次谎。
So you see your kid, they lie to your face once.
不。
No.
我没在吃饭前吃士力架，只是手上沾了点碎屑，结果就被说成这样。
I didn't take Kit Kats from I didn't eat before dinner, they, like, chalk all over.
这真的太容易了。
And it's just so easy.
你一下子就想到，我孩子是个反社会人格。
You just go to, like, my kid is a sociopath.
我孩子根本不尊重我。
My kid doesn't respect me.
可实际上呢，就是我孩子吃了一块士力架。
You're like, well, my kid ate a Kit Kat.
然后一下子这就变成尊重不尊重我的问题了。
And like all of a sudden, this is a matter of like respecting me.
对吧？
Right?
或者，我孩子打人了。
Or, you know, my kid is hitting.
他们现在正处于爱打人的阶段。
They're in a hitting stage.
再说，我们总是觉得孩子以后肯定交不到朋友。
And again, we just go to my kid is never gonna have any friends.
我家孩子太黏人了。
My kid is clingy.
他以后在派对上肯定总是被冷落，根本没法和人正常聊天。
They're always gonna be the loser at parties, and they're never gonna be able to converse with anyone.
而LG I之所以几乎危险，就在于它让我们犯这种急于下结论的错误。
And then what happens and why the LGI is so almost dangerous is it makes us do this fast forward error.
我们看到眼前的一个情况。
We take a situation today.
然后立刻脑补二十年后孩子会变成什么样，再根据这些恐惧做出当下反应，而不是就事论事。
We fast forward to what that means about our kid, I don't know, twenty years from now, and then we respond in the moment based on all of that fear rather than what's just going on in the moment.
而MGI真的能让我们从这种思维里清醒过来。
And MGI really shakes us out of that.
我孩子当着我的面撒谎，最善意的理解会是什么？
What is the most generous interpretation of why my kid would lie to my face?
每当我问父母这个问题，都很有意思。
Whenever I ask parents that, it's amazing.
他们的表情会从对四岁孩子怒气冲冲，突然变成：哦，他们可能是怕我的反应。
Their countenance goes from, like, so angry at their four year old to, like, oh, they're probably scared of my reaction.
明白了。
Okay.
那接下来我该怎么做？
And then eventually, what do I do?
但我们在生活中持有的心态，决定了我们会采取什么样的应对方式。
But the mindset we're in in life determines the interventions we use.
我可以肯定地告诉你，只要你用这种灾难化思维对待孩子、伴侣或同事，就根本不可能产生任何积极的结果。
And I can promise you as long as you're in an LGI mindset with your kid, with your partner, with your colleague, zero productive things can happen.
然后我们又会问：那我该怎么办？
And then we say, what do I do?
那我该怎么办？
What do I do?
答案是别再用那种心态做事了，换个问题问问自己，转到更有效的思维模式，再从那里采取行动。
The answer is to stop doing from that mindset and ask yourself a different question to get in a more productive mindset and then intervene from there.
这是我们第一次见面。
So we're meeting for the first time.
结果发现，我们有很多共同的朋友。
We have a lot of mutual friends, it turns out.
但我总觉得，我们在做事方式上可能有相当多相似之处，就像基因里带的一样。
But I have this suspicion that we have a fair amount of shared DNA just in terms of how we operate.
你提到想法固然有趣，但如果没有实际行动，这些想法也没多大意义，我觉得这正好是个自然的过渡点。
And as you're mentioning the thoughts as being interesting, but not that interesting if there's no action to apply these thoughts, I thought that might be a useful place for a segue.
我读到说你是个喜欢规划的人，你丈夫还给你一些关于规划的建议。
So I read that you're a planner and that your husband gave you some advice around planning.
这么说，够不够给你一个提示呢？
Is this enough of a cue to prompt?
我不知道。
I don't know.
不是你不懂。
It's not You don't.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我需要更多信息。
I need more.
好的。
Alright.
这是来自 romper.com 的内容。
So this is from romper.romper.com.
对。
Yep.
这是记者说的话。
And so this is the journalist speaking.
好的。
K.
我总是容易往最坏的方向想，当我们陷入困境或重复不好的模式时，我会马上想到最糟糕的结果，但我告诉自己要相信，我们最终会走出低谷，变得更好。
I tend to catastrophize, jump to the worst case scenario when we're struggling with a difficult phase or unpleasant pattern, but I tell myself to have faith to believe that we will work ourselves to a better place.
接下来这段，我觉得是在引用你的话，我猜你是个喜欢规划的人，她这么回应。
And then this is, I believe, quoting you, I'm guessing you're a planner, she responds.
我也是个喜欢规划的人。
I'm a planner too.
疫情期间我老公跟我说，我从来没想过喜欢做计划的人其实是悲观的。
My husband said to me over the pandemic, I never thought of planners as pessimists.
但与规划相反的，不是灾难。
But the opposite of planning is not catastrophe.
而是你能够对自己说，不管发生什么，我都能想办法应对。
It's being able to say to yourself, I'll figure it out no matter what happens.
对。
Mhmm.
与灾难化思维相反的，不是一味期待好事发生。
The opposite of catastrophizing isn't predicting the good.
而是对自己说：我能站稳脚跟。
It's saying to yourself, I'll find my feet.
不管遇到什么，我都有能力应对。
I'll be able to cope with what comes my way.
所以，我这么绕个弯子是想问问，从过去到现在，你在育儿方面遇到的最大困难是什么？
So this is a a roundabout way of asking what historically or currently have been your biggest challenges in parenting.
是的。
Yeah.
可能跟你孩子有关。
That could be with your kids.
也可能跟你丈夫有关，或者其他方面，你最先想到的是什么？
It could be with your husband, could be other, but what comes to mind?
这个过渡真好，确实如此。
It's a great segue, and that is true.
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