#873：戴维·艾伦——把事情做完的艺术（GTD）（重发）

所以我只是待在那里，就被卷进了欧洲的历史与文化中，这让我眼界大开。

So I was thrust into the middle of European history and culture just by being there, and that kinda opened my eyes a good bit.

我还有一个同父异母的姐姐。

Also, had a I had a half sister Mhmm.

她比我大很多，嫁给了B世代的一位重要文化记录者，叫约翰·克莱伦·霍姆斯。

Much older than me who had wound up marrying one of the intellectual chroniclers of the B generation, a man named John Clellen Holmes.

如果你查过约翰·霍姆斯，也就是约翰·克莱伦·霍姆斯，就会发现他写过几本特别有意思的作品，他们住在康涅狄格州。

If you ever looked up John Holmes, John Clellen Holmes, you know, he wrote some very interesting books and they lived in Connecticut.

他们俩特别前卫，非常有范儿。

They were very, very hip.

我爸爸在我很小的时候就去世了，我九岁那年，妈妈带我去见了雪莉和她的丈夫约翰。

My dad died when I was really young and my mom, when I was nine, took me to visit Shirley and John, her husband.

于是，我第一次接触到了当时最前沿的文化圈——纽约曼哈顿的垮掉一代。

And so I got introduced to probably the hippest of the hip in terms of intellectual culture, New York City, Manhattan, beat.

说起来，我姐夫约翰和卡罗瓦克，就是一起创造了‘垮掉’这个词，他们看着有人在中央公园里慢悠悠地走，那种状态，就叫‘垮掉’。

Matter of fact, my brother-in-law, John and Karowak, coined the term beat together, you know, watching somebody kind of beat themselves, you know, walk down Central Park.

总之，那时候我很早就接触到了一个完全不同的、充满 sophistication 和文化的世界。

Anyway, so I got introduced early on to a whole new different world of sophistication and culture really back then.

我并没有因为发现世界远比我在路易斯安那长大的小天地要大得多而感到震惊。

I wasn't kind of blindsided by the fact that the world was a lot bigger than my world I was growing up in in Louisiana.

所以我一有机会就想离开那里。

So I kind of wanted to get out of there as soon as I could.

这并不是说那里不好。

Nothing against that.

我依然很喜欢路易斯安那。

I still love Louisiana.

我至今还是会回去，看看那里的文化、美食、沼泽地，还有各种各样的东西。

I'm still going back and, you know, sort of seeing the culture and the food and the bayous and so forth and all that.

到那时候，我的视野已经大大开阔了，我也很想去进一步探索这些。

I, certainly my world had expanded by that point, and you know, I was interested in sort of pursuing that.

我一开始可能想学法律，但后来在瑞士待了一段时间，接触了那么多文化之后，我对人文、哲学这些东西反而更感兴趣了。

So I fought law maybe to begin with, but then after being in Switzerland, being around all that culture, then interest in the liberal arts, philosophy, and so forth was more interesting to me.

所以一上大学，我就把这当成了我的重点。

So when I got into college, that was my focus.

对那些不太了解这条职业路径的人来说，这具体是怎样的呢？

For those of you who aren't familiar with the career path, so to speak, what did that look like?

我去了一所挺特别的佛罗里达小学院，叫新学院，可以自己设计课程，没有分数，全是自主学习。后来我对哲学家们有点厌了。

Crazy little college in Florida, the design your own education, no grades, independent study, called New College, got bored by the philosophers.

他们总是用自己一开始的假设来证明自己的假设。

They wound up proving their original hypothesis using their original hypothesis.

就是这么个循环。

So that kind of a circle thing.

但更吸引我的其实是这些哲学家本人。

But what was more interesting was the philosophers themselves.

我有个特别好的朋友。

And I had a great friend.

他后来成了我的学术导师，也是个不错的伙伴，研究的是思想史。

He turned out to be he was my academic advisor, turned out to be a good friend who was an intellectual historian, history of thought.

于是他让我接触到了文化史和思想史。

So he turned me on to history of culture, history of thought.

我觉得这特别有意思。

And I thought, that was really cool.

那时候我们根本还不用‘范式’这个词，但这就是我第一次接触到的东西。

And we didn't even use the word paradigm back then, but that's what I got introduced to.

我读了奥斯瓦尔德·斯宾格勒的《西方的衰落》，那是上百年前最早一批讨论文化拥有自身精神、自身世界观的书之一，讲的是这种内在气质如何影响艺术、哲学、数学、科学、医学，甚至方方面面，因为每种文化都有其独特的印记，能在所有这些领域里看出来。

I read Oswald Spengler, The Decline of the West, which is one of the earliest books, you know, over a hundred years ago, talking about cultures having their own psyche, their own geist, and how that affected art, philosophy, math, science, medicine, you know, and everything because there was kind of a thumbprint or a signature in the various cultures that you could see through all of those things.

我对这个特别着迷。

So I was fascinated by that.

我想，这大概就是我最初对模型产生兴趣的起点。

So I guess that was kind of the early stages of me being interested in models.

如果能理解一个模型，或许就能让这个世界变得更清晰，我一直对这个挺有吸引力的。

Understanding a model, if we could understand a model that could help the world make a lot more sense, I've always been somewhat attracted to that.

我也一直对看不见的东西如何影响看得见的世界很感兴趣。

I've always also been attracted by how the invisible affects the visible.

如果你回看我的职业生涯，我五岁第一份工作是当魔术师。

If you look back in my career, you know, my first job was a magician at age five.

在德克萨斯州的巴勒斯坦街头，我收五美分一场魔术表演。

On the sidewalks of Palestine, Texas, I charged 5¢ for my magic show.

如果你稍微往前推一推，其实一切都能追溯到那时候。

So you could trace it if you, you know, kind of stretch a little bit, but you could trace it all the way back to there.

我一直对一件事着迷：如果我们能理解那些看不见却影响着每个人的力量，并掌握它，就能彻底改变我们管理生活的方式。

Now I've always been fascinated by how if we could understand what's going on invisibly that's affecting everybody and get a hold of it, that could make a huge difference in how you manage your life.

你似乎尝试过很多不同种类的工作，我们也不必一一细数。

It seems like you tried your hand at many different types of jobs, and we certainly don't have to trace through all of them.

但你是怎么走上为企业和效率培训这条路的呢？当然，也许‘效率’这个词也不太准确。

But how did you end up teaching, say, corporations or productivity, whichever and that may not be the Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

你是怎么

How how would you

我长话短说。

I'll make a very long story very short.

我进了美国思想史的研究生院。

I got into graduate school in American intellectual history.

这可是1968年的伯克利。

Now again, this is Berkeley 1968.

有人说，如果你还记得1968年在伯克利的事，那你根本就没在那儿。

They say if you can remember being in Berkeley in 1968, you probably weren't there.

但那时候在那儿，真是令人热血沸腾。

So but that was heady times to be there.

后来我突然意识到，我真正想要的，是自己去获得觉悟，而不是光研究别人是怎么觉悟的。

And at some point, I realized, wait a minute, I really wanted to get my own enlightenment instead of just study people who had theirs.

于是我明白，学术圈并不是我要找的地方。

So I just figured that academia was not the place for it.

所以我干脆转身离开，就这么决定了。

And so I jumped ship, you know, left that, said, okay.

然后我就踏上了自己的探索之路。

And then I got, went on my own personal exploration path.

各种事情都试过，毒品啊、武术啊、灵修啊，样样都沾过。

You know, lots of things, you know, lots of drugs, but also martial arts, spiritual stuff.

哎，这可是六十年代啊。

Know, come on, this is the sixties.

这是伯克利，七十年代初的伯克利，你懂的。

This is Berkeley, you know, in the early seventies.

在研究这些的时候，我更关心的是我是谁、真理和宇宙的本质，而不是找份工作。

So as I studied all of that, I was more interested in finding out who I was and finding out about God truth and the universe than having a job.

不过，清粥小菜、洞穴修行，那也不是我的风格。

But of course, rice bowl and cave wasn't my style.

所以我心想，行吧，房租得交。

So I said, okay, I gotta pay the rent.

那我该怎么赚钱呢？

How do I do that?

后来我有几个朋友，他们很清楚自己想做什么，已经开始创业，经营小生意了。

Well, so then I had several friends who themselves kind of knew what they wanted to do and they were starting their own businesses and, you know, running small businesses.

于是我就成了一个特别靠谱的二把手。

And so I wound up being a good number two guy.

为了有份工作，我帮两个哥们在洛杉矶开了一家新奥尔良风格的餐厅。

So just to have a job, I helped two guys start a New Orleans style restaurant in LA.

我还帮一个朋友打理过圣费尔南多谷的园林公司。

I helped a friend run a landscape company in San Fernando Valley.

我卖过踏板车。

I sold mopeds.

对啊。

Right.

你要是去维基百科上查，能翻出一堆我干过的活儿。

You know, you could read the list in Wikipedia.

我做过的事情挺多的，但说到底，我就是去问问：我能怎么帮你们把事儿做成？

There's a lot of stuff that I did, but I was just, basically, I would go in and see, well, how can I help them do what they're doing?

我们还能让这事儿变得多简单一点呢？

And how much easier can we make this?

我这个人就是懒，你知道的，所以我就帮他们改进流程——现在叫流程优化，其实我就想少干点活。

Because I'm just a lazy guy, you know, then I'd help improve their Now we call that process improvement, but I was just trying to not have to work so hard.

然后我去把问题解决了，接着就无聊了。

And then I went fix it, and then I get bored.

所以我就去找下一份工作。

So then I go find another job.

有一天我突然发现，原来这种人有名字，还拿工资，叫顾问，你知道吧？

And then I discovered one day they call those people something, they pay them, they call consultant, you know?

1931年，我挂出了招牌，艾伦联合公司。

So 1931, hung out my shingle, Allen Associates.

那时候连名字都不会拼，现在倒是会了。

Couldn't spell it, now I are one.

于是我心想，好吧，那就一个项目接一个项目，主动去找人合作，看看能不能把这事儿做起来。

So then I said, okay, well, me see if I can sort of just throw myself out there project by project with people and, you know, make that work.

但话说回来，因为我懒得干太多活，我就想，我对那些能真正起作用的模型特别感兴趣。

But then again, because I didn't wanna have to work so hard, I thought, well, I'm really interested in models that would work.

万一我一时看不出怎么帮人改进流程，要是手里有个现成的模型能拿出来用，那该多好，这样多少也能帮他们改善状况。

In case I can't see obviously how to help somebody in their process, it'd be nice if I had a model in my back pocket to pull out and be able to help them, because that would somehow improve their condition.

所以我特别渴望找到这样的模型。

So I got very hungry for those models.

再加上我平时打坐、修心、练武术，我特别喜欢头脑清晰的感觉。

Also, because of my meditation, spiritual work, martial arts work, I I really loved the idea of being clear in my head.

练武术的时候，我学过很多怎么让脑子清空的方法，好让你能冷静应对战斗。

You know, I had a lot of training in the martial arts about how do you clear your head, you know, so you can fight appropriately.

但后来生活越来越复杂，我发现这事儿把我的脑子搞乱了。

But then my life got more complex, and I said, well, that's kind of screwing up my clear head.

所以，一方面我想保持头脑清醒，另一方面又想用好模型帮别人，这两样慢慢吸引我，一点一点地积累，最终二十年后就形成了GTD这套方法。

So both my interest in keeping a clear head as well as, you know, good models to help people had me start to get attracted to and pull in piece by piece, you know, and fast forward all the stuff that became ultimately GTD and getting things done, you know, twenty years later.

但当时并没有什么顿悟的瞬间。

But there was no grand epiphany.

一路上其实是一些小小的顿悟，慢慢被我拼凑成了一个系统性的方法。

There were just little small epiphanettes along the way that I began to cobble together in a system, in a systematic approach.

我找到一些对我有用的东西。

And, you know, I found some stuff that worked for me.

有几位导师教了我这些关键要点，我当时就想，这太棒了。

You know, I had a couple of mentors teach me some of the key elements of these things, and I went, God, that's really cool.

后来我把这些方法用在自己的客户身上，结果也一样——他们脑子里更清晰了，注意力更集中，内心也更踏实了。

And then I turned around and used those techniques with my own clients, and it produced the same result, more clarity, more focused, more meaningful space in their head.

我觉得，这真不错。

And I thought, well, that's cool.

于是这成了我咨询工作中的核心部分。

So that became a key part of my consulting.

那时候我们不叫它辅导，其实就是咨询。

We didn't call it coaching back then, which is consulting.

后来一家大公司的HR负责人看到我做的这些，就说，天啊，大卫，我们公司整个都需要这套方法。

And then I, you know, head of HR in a big corporation saw what I was doing and said, wow, we need that in our whole company, David.

你能用这套方法设计一个培训项目，让更多人接触到这些内容吗？

Can you design a training program with this methodology so we can reach a lot of people with this stuff?

于是我花了几个月时间，设计了一个为期两天半的个人效率培训课程，1983到1984年，我们在洛克希德公司对一千多名高管和经理做了试点。

So I spent a couple of months and designed a two and a half day personal productivity training, and we did a pilot program for a thousand executives and managers at Lockheed in 1983 and '84.

一下就戳中了痛点。

Hit a nerve.

我莫名其妙就被推到了企业培训这个圈子里。

And I found myself thrust into the corporate training world.

这事儿要搁以前，我根本想不到。

Could have fooled me.

要是1968年在伯克利读美国思想史的时候，有人跟我说将来我会干企业培训，我准得问：你抽的啥好东西？

If you'd told me as an American intellectual history major in Berkeley in 1968 that I'd be in the corporate training world, I'd say, what do you smoke?

真是没想到。

Jeez.

但后来发现，恰恰是这群人对我的发现最感兴趣。

But it turned out that that it happened to be the audience that was most attracted to what I had found out.

那时候，中高级专业人士刚开始面对电子邮件，还有涌向企业界的海量信息。

You know, the mid to senior level professionals were just starting to get hit with stuff like email and the tsunami of stuff that was starting to hit the corporate world.

他们也是真正愿意为培训和辅导付费的客户，毕竟这些服务能帮到那些岗位上的人。

And they were also the clients that were interested in actually paying for training and coaching and so forth, you know, that would assist, you know, people in those roles.

这其实是我漫长故事的一个极简版。

That's a very short version of a very long story.

谢谢您分享这些背景。

I appreciate the background.

我很想多听听关于您的导师们的事。

I would love to hear a bit more about your mentors.

有没有哪几位导师对GTD的形成特别关键？

Are there any particular mentors who were particularly important to the formation of GTD?

有两位，我刚在阿姆斯特丹的舞台上请他们一起来了，因为我想让听众听听GTD最初的源头。

They were two, and I just had them on stage with me in Amsterdam because I invited them to to you know, we just did the GTD Global Summit, and I wanted people to sort of hear some of the original DNA of where GTD started.

一位是迪安·艾奇逊，另一位是拉塞尔·毕晓普。

One was Dean Acheson, the other was Russell Bishop.

迪恩是一位有二十五年经验的高管咨询顾问，专攻组织变革。

Dean was a had been a twenty five year consultant in executive consulting in organizational change.

他摸索出一套关键方法，能帮人打破思维定式，真正推动改变，而不是被旧有的业务模式拖住脚步。

He had uncovered the techniques that were critical to be able to loosen people up so they were able to make change instead of having a lot of old business prevent them from being able to to do that.

所以，‘清空大脑’这个想法——把杂念都倒出来——是我从迪恩那里学来的。

So the whole idea of a mind sweep, getting stuff out of your head, learned from Dean.

他发现，这对高管尤其重要，因为如果脑子里还塞满一堆旧事，想接受新目标和新愿景，简直就像在流沙里游泳。

He had figured that out, that that was absolutely critical for executives, particularly because, you know, if they had all this old business spinning around in their head, for them to buy into some new goal and vision was like swimming in quicksand.

于是他找到办法，让人把那些杂念清空，然后明确下一步具体该做什么。

So he discovered that getting that stuff out of their head and having them make next action decisions, the very specific next action.

因此，‘清空大脑’和‘下一步行动’这两个方法，都是我从迪恩那里学到的，到现在依然是核心，任何人想理清思路、摆脱承诺的负担，都离不开这两样。

So I learned the mind sweep and the next actions from Dean, and those are still core elements that anybody needs, you know, to get clarity, you know, to get your head clear, you know, in terms of commitments.

拉塞尔·毕晓普是洞察研讨会的联合创始人，那是一个关于个人成长和自我发展的项目，我一九七八年就参与进去了。

And Russell Bishop was the co founder of Insight Seminars, which was a sort of personal growth self development thing that I got involved in in 'seventy eight.

我当时特别喜欢那个项目。

And, you know, I loved that.

我特别喜欢那次培训。

I loved that training.

那次培训的很大一部分内容都是关于承诺的。

And a large part of that training was about commitments.

我从那里学到了承诺的重要性，以及它有多大的力量。

So I learned about commitments there and how powerful that was.

那对我来说是一次改变人生的体验。

And it was a transformative experience for me.

后来我干脆成了Insight Seminars的培训师，和Russell一起工作，设计一些个人效率的课程，还把它们带进了企业环境。

And then I actually became a trainer for Insight Seminars working with Russell and we were designing some sort of personal productivity workshops and we were being brought into the corporate world.

七十年代末到八十年代初，企业界开始对个人成长这一类东西产生兴趣。

Back in the seventies, late seventies, early eighties, a lot of the corporate world was starting to be interested in sort of what the personal growth had to offer.

像Actualizations、Lifespring、Insight这类项目，突然间就被引入了企业领域。

Actualizations, Lifespring, Insight, things like that were suddenly being brought into the corporate world.

这有点冒险，因为你得放下防备，而大多数企业的文化并不开放，容不下这些东西，但那确实是一次有趣而大胆的尝试。

It was a little dangerous because, you know, you had to be a little vulnerable, most corporate cultures were not that open for all of that kind of stuff, but it was an interesting experiment and foray into that world.

所以我跟拉塞尔一起工作。

And so I worked with Russell.

我们成立了洞察咨询公司，开始把从迪恩那里学到的、还有我自己的一些心得，应用到企业环境中。

We created the Insight Consulting Group and we started to do some of these, you know, what I had learned both from Dean and my own work, we started to do versions of this stuff in the corporate world.

那时候，拉塞尔是我很多年的合作伙伴。

And that's where, you know, Russell was my partner for many years.

很多事就是从那时候开始的。

That's where a lot of that started.

我很想深入聊聊下一步行动的决策。

I'd love to dig into next action decisions.

这是一个非常有力的概念，也是一个很多人搞不清楚的重要区别。

This is a really powerful concept and a really important distinction that, many people do not have a whole lot of clarity on.

你能讲讲什么是下一步行动的决策吗？它和大多数人列在待办清单上的东西有什么不同？

So could you talk about next action decisions and how they perhaps differ from what a lot of people put on their to do lists?

我们说的下一步行动，指的是具体到你得去哪儿、做什么，才能真正推动这件事、落实这个承诺。

When we talk about next actions, that means as granular as where physically, visibly are you going to go to do what to move the needle on this thing, on this commitment?

是坐在电脑前写邮件吗？

Is that at your computer to write an email?

是坐在电脑前浏览网站吗？

Is that at your computer surf a website?

是去五金店买钉子吗？

Is that at the hardware store to buy nails?

是跟伴侣谈一谈吗？

Is that at your life partner to have a conversation?

为了搞清楚妈妈的生日、提高银行信用额度、聘一位副总裁，或者好好过日子，你接下来最该做的具体事情是什么？

What is the very, very next thing you need to do to get clarity on mom's birthday or increasing your bank credit line or hiring a vice president or getting a life?

你没意识到

You don't see the

那个下一步该做的事。

very next action.

如果你别的什么都不用做，就只做这一件事，你会去干什么？

If you had nothing else to do but that, what would you go do?

人们总是避之唯恐不及，就像躲瘟疫一样。

And people avoid that decision like the plague.

确实如此。

They do.

我本来还以为不是这样，但当我们辅导别人时，他们往往要花一到六个小时，才能把所有分散注意力的事情都列出来，然后还得花一两天，逐项去想：关于猫粮、关于聘副总裁、关于怎么过好这一生、关于该不该离婚，下一步到底该做什么？

Could have fooled me, but you know, when we coach people, it takes one to six hours for them to identify all the stuff they have attention on, and then the rest of a day or two to go through each one of those and say, okay, what's the very next thing you need to do about cat food, about vice president, about get a life, about should you get divorced or not?

关键是，下一步该做什么？

Know, what's the next thing?

要做出这些决定，人确实得动脑筋。

And it takes, people actually have to think to make those decisions.

其实并不难。

It's not hard.

要获得清晰感，其实有两个关键点得结合起来：一是下一步具体该做什么，二是如果一个动作完不成这个承诺，那它算不算一个项目？

There are actually two aspects of getting clarity that I have to tie together is what's the very next action, and if one action won't complete whatever this commitment is, what's the project?

如果你看看大多数人待办事项清单，可能会以为上面写的是‘妈妈’、‘银行’这类词。

If you look at most people's to do list, you think you see things like mom, you know, in bank.

是的。

Yeah.

你当然有妈妈，那为什么她会出现在清单上？

Well, sure you had a mom, so why is that on the list?

因为她的生日快到了。

Well, her birthday's coming.

你打算怎么处理她生日的事？

What are you gonna do about her birthday?

我不知道。

I don't know.

我觉得快到了。

Think it's coming.

所以像这样的事，你已经把它记下来了。

So taking something like that and then, well, you captured the idea.

很好。

Great.

所以这就是第一步。

So you that's step one.

但第二步是，你得明确具体要怎么操作。

But then step two is you need to then clarify what exactly you're gonna do about that.

最终的目标是什么？

And you know, what's the final outcome?

给妈妈办个生日派对，记到我的项目清单里，然后给妹妹打个电话，问问她觉得给迈尔斯过生日该怎么做，这就是下一步。

So give mom a birthday party, goes on my project list, and call my sis to see, you know, what she thinks we ought to do for Miles birthday as the next action.

听起来很简单，但目标和行动其实是效率的基石，可大多数人根本没搞清楚，那些占据他们注意力的事情，到底该达成什么目标、该采取什么行动。

As simple as that sounds, outcome and action are the zeros and ones of productivity, but most people have not actually identified the outcomes and the specific actions, you know, of the things that have their attention.

别骗我了。

Good or fool me.

但确实有极少数人是例外。

But there are very few people that that are exceptions to that.

大多数人手头都堆着一大堆事。

And most people have tons of stuff.

现在正在听的任何人，赶紧拿出你的待办清单，我来给你看看我说的是什么意思。

Anybody listening to this right now, just pull out your to do list, you know, and I'll show you what I'm talking about.

你清单上的大部分事情，根本不是你接下来该做的具体行动，而且这些事情也往往不是你真正想达成的完整结果。

Most of the things on your to do list are not the deep very next action you need to take about those, and probably the things on your to do list are not the complete outcome that you're trying to achieve by whatever you action you need to take.

挺讽刺的是，生产力的‘0’和‘1’这么简单，可大家偏偏都在躲着不碰。

So it's funny that zeros, ones are productivity, people are avoiding.

我的意思是，要想把事办成，你得先搞清楚‘完成’到底是什么意思。

I mean, getting things done, you need to know what done means.

你得知道，什么时候才算真正做完？完成的样子是什么？在哪儿完成？

You get to mark it off as complete when what's true, and what does doing look like and where does it happen?

比如，是打个电话，还是去商店买个东西，或者跟谁谈一谈。

Oh, that's a phone call, or that's a thing to buy at the store, or that's a conversation I need to have with somebody.

我知道这听起来挺 obvious 的，蒂姆，但大多数人真得练一练，才能回答这些关于事情的问题，因为这得动脑子。

I know it's kind of a duh, Tim, but it's something that most people need to train a cognitive muscle to answer those questions about stuff because it requires thinking.

动脑子挺累的。

Thinking's hard.

这还需要重新思考一下，什么样的待办事项清单或下一步行动清单才算有效，连名字本身都得改。

It also requires a sort of a reframe as to what an effective to do list or next action list looks like, even the label itself.

对吧？

Right?

我是不是不该用‘待办事项’这个词来指代‘妈妈’‘银行’这类事情？

Should I be using the term to refer to mom, bank, etcetera, as a to do list?

当‘银行’两个字大写的时候，它到底意味着什么？

What does that actually mean when applied to bank in all caps?

在我们这儿，这些就只是收集清单。

In in our case, it would just be your capture list.

对的。

Mhmm.

你已经把这些都收进来了。

You've captured those.

很好。

Good.

很好。

Great.

然后把这些都放进你的收集箱，再逐一进行判断。

Then you need to throw those in your entry, and then go through this decision making process.

这件事能行动吗？

Is it actionable?

能还是不能？

Yes or no?

如果不能，那就归为参考资料、丢掉，或者搁置。

If no, it's either reference or trash or incubate.

如果能，那下一步该做什么？

If yes, then it is, okay, so what's the next action?

如果一个动作完不成，那它算哪个项目？

And if one action won't complete it, what's the project?

这些问题看似简单，但正是靠它们让你的收件箱清空，而不是靠把所有事都做完。

So as simple as those questions are, that's how you get your in basket empty, not by finishing everything.

对。

Yeah.

两分钟内能做完的事，就立刻搞定。

Anything you can do at two minutes, you should finish right then.

这就是两分钟法则。

That's the two minute rule.

但除此之外，你只需要把事情弄清楚。

But otherwise, you just need to clarify it.

然后，第三步就是把提醒事项整理到合适的地方。

And then, you know, step three would be organize the reminders in some appropriate place.

我很想聊聊自上而下和自下而上的方法，当然如果你觉得有更好的表达方式，也可以换种角度讲。

I would love to talk about and please feel free to to rephrase this or take a different angle if if better, but sort of top down versus bottom up systems.

我看了不少听众提出的问题，其中有一个是：在做完头脑风暴、把事项分类为‘立即做’‘丢掉’‘委托他人’‘推迟’之后，有些人发现剩下的清单还是特别长，即使已经果断删减了，还是不确定该怎么进一步精简——比如那些根本没必要做的任务。

And, specifically, I looked at a number of listener questions that were posed, and one was related to after doing a mind sweep and sorting the results into do it, discard it, delegate it, defer it, some people still having an extremely large list after discarding aggressively and not being sure of how to then eliminate more if there are tasks or items that they can simply discard, things that are not worth doing.

如果有人问：‘我不知道什么重要，也不知道该怎么排序’，你有什么建议或想法可以帮到他们吗？

How you help people to if they say, I don't know what is important or I'm not sure how to prioritize things, if you have any advice or thoughts for those people.

当然。

Sure.

我有不少建议。

I got a bunch.

你可以从优先级的层次结构来理解这个问题。

One way to think about it is from a hierarchical standpoint of priorities.

这些年来，我发现我们对事物的承诺其实分六个层次。

You know, one of the things that that I uncovered over all these years is the six horizons that we actually have commitments.

每个层次的内容都不一样。

And they're at different levels with different content.

最顶层的问题是：你的人生目标是什么？

The top horizon would be what's your life purpose?

这个方法也可以用在公司或任何你关注的组织上，但咱们先说个人层面。

And you can do this iterated on your company or any enterprise you want, but let's do it.

咱们就从个人角度来谈。

Let's talk about personal.

那你来到这个世界上，是为了什么？

So why are you on the planet?

你此生真正想完成的是什么？

What are you here to do?

说白了，你的使命到底是什么？

You know, what's your purpose?

这自然会决定你的优先级，对吧？

Obviously, that's gonna set your priorities, right?

你可别偏离了自己的目标。

You don't wanna be off purpose.

这就是最顶层的层面。

So that's top level.

当然，光知道目标并不能帮你决定先回哪封邮件，但往下走，就是操作层面了。

Of course, knowing your purpose is not gonna help you decide which email to write first, a little bit, you know, but then the next level operationally.

我说的‘往下’，不是说重要性更低。

And I say down, not as less.

这其实更偏向于操作层面，也就是你的目标实现后，理想中的样子是什么。

It just means it's more operational would be what's the vision of your purpose being fulfilled successfully.

五年后，蒂姆，你希望自己在哪儿？

Five years from now, Tim, where do you wanna be?

你的生活方式会是什么样子？

What does your lifestyle look like?

我知道，选择住在纽约而不是硅谷，肯定是你长远愿景的一部分，而不是一时的决定。

You know, I'm sure living in New York as opposed to Silicon Valley was some part of a vision that you had as opposed to day to day.

你心里其实有个画面：如果我真的想做自己想做的事，那生活该是什么样、听起来什么样、感觉又该是什么样。

So you had some sort of a picture about, hey, if I really wanna do kind of what I wanna do, here's what it would look, sound, and feel like.

公司里常说的三到五年战略或愿景，就是这个层面的东西。

So that's the vision level that people have in companies that'd be three, four, five year long term plan or vision in terms of where does company wanna be.

但你为自己人生、事业和生活方式设定的这个愿景，能帮你决定哪封邮件最重要吗？

Now, the vision that you have in terms of life and career and lifestyle, is that gonna help you decide which email is most important?

是的，能帮上一点忙。

Yeah, a little bit more.

再往下一层，就是具体的目标和任务了。

Then there's a next level operationally down from that, which is goals and objectives.

如果真想实现这个愿景，未来三到二十四个月里，你得完成哪些事？

If you wanted that vision to actually come true, what do you need to accomplish over the next three to twenty four months?

这通常就是人们说的年度计划之类的东西。

That'd be usually what people talk about in terms of annual plans and so forth.

是的，我得确保孩子能考上大学。

Yeah, well, I need to make sure my kids get into college.

我得确保新部门能顺利建立起来。

I need to make sure that we set up this new division.

我得把那本书写出来，诸如此类的事情吧。

I need to, you know, I wanna publish the book, you know, whatever those things are.

这些目标，都是为了实现你愿景而自然浮现出来的。

Those would be goals that emerge as a way to get to your vision.

所以，使命是第五个层次，愿景是第四个层次，目标和任务是第三个层次。

So purpose would be horizon five, horizon four would be vision, horizon three would be goals and objectives.

第二层 horizon 非常重要，它涵盖所有你必须维持的事情，这些对你来说很关键，能让你保持平衡，朝着正确方向前进。

Horizon two, importantly, is all the things that you need to maintain that are important to you to maintain so that you get there, that you're balanced and you're moving in the right direction.

举个例子，个人层面就是：你的健康怎么样？

So personally, this would be how's your health?

你的财务状况如何？

How's your finances?

你的关系处理得还好吗？

How's your relationships?

你的精神生活呢？

How's your spiritual life?

你的狗狗还好吗？

How's your dog?

你的乐趣和放松呢？

How's your fun factor?

就是那些你心里清楚、必须持续维护的方方面面。

You know, whatever all those things are that you say, I need to maintain these.

你不用把它们全部做完。

You don't finish that.

你只需要确保这些方面都达标，能帮你达成目标。

You just need to make sure that they're up to par in terms of getting you where you wanna go.

这就是第二层次。

So that's horizon two.

在你的组织里，这就相当于你的岗位职责。

In your organizations, that would be your job description.

哪些事情是你必须做好、负起责任的？

What are the things you're accountable to do well?

资产管理、团队培养、客户服务、项目设计，诸如此类。

Asset management, staff development, customer service, project design, yada yada.

所以，当你明确了岗位职责，或者梳理了生活中的各个维度，就能更清楚地判断哪封邮件才是最该发的。

So that'd be looking at those levels there and saying, Okay, well, once you defined your job description or once you looked at your aspects of your life, that's gonna help you decide a little bit more about what's the most important email you need to send.

接下来再更具体一点，想想在这些方面，你到底有哪些事情必须完成。

Then you get more operational and say, well, what are all the things you need to finish about any of those things at both?

项目。

Projects.

大多数人手头都有三到十个。

And most people have between 30 and a 100.

给车换轮胎、安排下一次度假、招人、养狗、研究一下能不能让孩子学跆拳道，诸如此类。

Get tires on your car, handle the next vacation, hire the person, get a dog, research whether I can give my kids karate lessons or not, yada yada.

这就是项目层面。

So then that's the project level.

这是一级目标。

That's horizon one.

再往下就是具体行动。

And then the ground level.

在欧洲，我们用地面层加一层、二层、三层这样往上数，跟美国不一样。

We use ground and then one, two, three, four, five, elevators in Europe as opposed to US.

因为涉及国际差异，所以我们得调整一下。

That's where so international now, so we had to change.

在第一本书里，我用的是五千英尺、五万英尺、四万英尺这样的说法，但欧洲人不用英尺。

In the first book, I called 5,000, 50,000 feet and 40,000 and so forth, but they don't use feet in Europe.

总之，地面层就是那些你必须去做的事情。

Anyway, so then the ground level is these were all the things you need to do.

这些都是你需要采取的具体行动。

That's the actions you need to take.

大多数人手里都有上百到两百件事情要处理，比如发邮件、去商店买东西、跟人沟通之类的。

And most people have a 100 to 200 of those emails to send, stuff to buy at the store, stuff to talk to people about, etcetera.

所以当你问，我该怎么安排优先级？

So when you say, how do I set my priorities?

我会反问：是哪一个层次还不够清晰，需要你再多花点心思？

I say, well, which one of those horizons is not clear enough to you needs more work?

或者，你需要回过头去看哪个层次，才能决定列表上什么最重要？

Or which one do you need to refer back to to then decide what's most important on your list?

这可是个大话题，大多数人要想明白这个都不容易。

And that's a big conversation, as you can imagine, for most people to try to figure that out.

我尽量把它简化了，但我不能骗任何人。

I tried to get it as simple as I could, but I can't lie to anybody.

这确实是实情。

That's the truth.

这些事要么是你有意识的，要么不是。

Those are all things that are either conscious or not.

但它们对每个人都有影响。

They're still at effect for everybody.

所以，意识到你在各个层面上的内容是什么，会带来很大帮助，甚至能帮你解决很多问题。

And so being aware of what your content is on all those different levels is gonna help a lot, help a ton.

从更简单、更实际的角度来说，我就是看什么最牵动我的注意力。

On a more simple practical level, I just set priorities by saying, what's most got my attention?

现在什么最吸引我的注意力？

What's most got my attention right now?

我最需要先处理哪件事，才能让心里腾出空间来？

What most do I need to handle so I get to clear space again?

现在我的生活已经简化到这个地步了。

At this point in my life, I got that kind of simplified.

咱们聊聊地点吧，因为我对这个特别好奇。

Let's talk about location for a second because this is something that I'm certainly very curious about.

我也经常想这个问题。

And think about a fair amount.

我现在在纽约写东西，因为在这里我有一套固定的写作习惯，而且我还住在纽约的乡下，挺安静的。

I'm in New York right now for writing because I have a very set writing routine here in New York, and it's I'm also pretty isolated in rural New York.

我从硅谷搬到奥斯汀，这个决定确实跟你说的那些更高层次的考量直接相关。

The move that I made from Silicon Valley to Austin, Texas was certainly dependent on my answers and descriptions to those higher levels that you described.

对。

Mhmm.

我相信这些内容 somewhere 有写过，但我没想在聊之前专门去查一遍。

And I'm sure this is written somewhere, but didn't want to try to research everything before the conversation.

你为什么搬去阿姆斯特丹？

Amsterdam, why did you move to Amsterdam?

当时主要是哪些因素或原因促使你们做出这个决定的？

What were the drivers or the reasons behind that?

嗯，其实是很多因素凑到了一起，形成了一种完美的风暴。

Well, there's kind of a perfect storm of a lot of factors.

其中一个原因就是，我们想离开美国。

One is we wanna get out of The US.

在思维方式上，我们有点厌倦了那种以美国为中心的观点。

We were a bit tired of US centricity in terms of thinking.

我们也考虑过京都，我们很喜欢京都。

And we thought about, we love Kyoto.

我们也很喜欢其他一些地方，但欧洲看起来是更合适的选择。

We love other places, but Europe seemed to be the place to go.

我和我妻子没有孩子，所以在这方面我们比较自由。

My wife and I don't have kids, and so we're a little freer to do that.

我的工作变得越来越虚拟化，而且实际上也更加全球化了。

My work was becoming much more virtual and actually much more global.

如今，阿姆斯特丹才是我生活的中心，远比圣巴巴拉重要得多。

And Amsterdam is much more the center of my world these days than Santa Barbara was.

我们之前去过这座城市几次，一下子就爱上了它。

And we'd been to this city a couple of times and fell in love with it.

我们真的很喜欢这座城。

We loved the city.

这地方美得像画一样，漂亮又宜人。

It's an eye candy city and it's just gorgeous and it's lovely.

我们当初天真地想，不如先在那儿待三个月，再在米兰待六个月，其他地方也轮流住住，毕竟现在我的工作越来越虚拟化，完全有这个自由。

We kind of naively thought, well, let's spend three months there and six months in Milan and six months in whatever, because now that my work was becoming so virtual, you know, we had the ability to be able to do that.

当然，等我们真去了解怎么合法定居时，才发现手续多得让人头疼。

Of course, once we found out what it takes to be legal and get legal residency at any place, you know, there's a lot of hoops to jump through.

最后我们干脆随便一指，就选了阿姆斯特丹。

And it turns out that and we just kinda threw a dart and said Amsterdam.

那里比哥本哈根或斯德哥尔摩暖和，也没那么阴暗。

It was warmer and not quite as dark as Copenhagen or Stockholm.

比伦敦更有异国情调，也更让人觉得冒险一些。

A little more foreign, you know, and adventurous than London.

而且这儿人人都说英语，所以这点特别方便。

And everybody here speaks English, so, you know, that was easy.

我们来了之后，发现这里的生活质量真的太好了，越住越爱这座城市，五年后的今天还是这样。

And, you know, once we were here, the quality of life here is just so wonderful and we just fell in love with the city even more so and still are five years later.

所以我们打算长期留下来。

So we intend to stay.

事实上，我们想移民过来。

As a matter of fact, we wanna immigrate.

我们特别喜欢荷兰人。

So we love the Dutch.

我们也特别喜欢这个国家。

We love the country.

说实话，这里简直就是全球视野和开放包容的一片绿洲。

Now, golly, it's just an oasis of global thinking and openness or whatever.

现在这年头，这种地方可不多见了。

That's kind of rare in the world these days.

这绝对是全球我最喜爱的城市之一。

It is definitely one of my favorite cities in the world.

你提到了好多很棒的地方，但阿姆斯特丹真的方方面面都合心意。

You mentioned a lot of wonderful places, but Amsterdam really does check so many boxes.

这座城市真是令人惊叹。

It's a marvel of a city.

确实如此。

It really is.

真的没错。

It really is.

而且它运转得特别好。

And it works.

你懂的。

You know?

我们五年没买车了。

We haven't had a car in five years.

真的完全够用。

It just works.

我和凯瑟琳每人都有两辆自行车。

Catherine and I both have two bikes apiece.

我们走路出行。

We walk.

公园美得不得了。

Gorgeous parks.

这座城市对狗特别友好。

It's a very dog friendly city.

我们最爱的餐厅都允许带狗进去。

Our favorite restaurants allow dogs.

你明白吧，这就是我们选择搬来阿姆斯特丹的原因。

You know, that's where moving to Amsterdam is.

哪个地方？

Which is that?

那是2004年左右的事了，我在一家咖啡馆里有人走过来跟我打招呼，说‘嗨，老兄’，然后自我介绍。

Back in the day, this was 2004 maybe, I had someone approach me in a coffee shop and said, good day, mate, and introduce himself.

那人是谁？

Who was that?

没想到，他居然是AG1的创始人，那时候可早了。

It turned out to be founder of AG1, believe it or not, way back in the day.

很多人问我，这么多年我试过无数种营养补充剂，最后还剩下哪些一直没断过？

And people often ask me what has survived after twenty plus years of testing every supplement under the sun Just about.

到底哪些东西一直留在我的日常清单里？

What actually has stayed in the rotation, in the toolbox?

这次的赞助商AG1，就在这份极短的清单顶端。

This episode sponsor, AG1, is at the top of that very, very short list.

我差不多十五年前就开始用了，那时候它还叫Athletic Greens。

I started using it close to fifteen years ago when it was still called Athletic Greens.

我把它写进《四小时身体》里了，没人付我钱让我推荐，但它比我试过的几乎所有东西都更持久。

I put it in the four hour body, didn't get paid to put it in there, and it's outlasted almost everything else that I've tried.

一勺就能满足你日常的营养需求。

One scoop covers your nutritional bases.

对吧？

Right?

补上那些你平时容易漏掉的营养缺口。

Fills the gaps.

当然，你得吃好饭，但这里有75种以上成分，包括益生菌、B族维生素和全食物营养素，在我看来，这相当于花小钱买了一份超值的营养保障。

You wanna eat good food, of course, but 75 plus ingredients, including probiotics, b vitamins, and whole food nutrients act as, in my opinion, pretty cheap nutritional insurance.

我每天早上一睁眼就用冷水冲着喝。

I take it first thing every morning with cold water.

现在这已经成了习惯，跟刷牙一样自然。

And at this point, it's automatic like brushing my teeth.

如果你想找一个简单又有效的日常习惯，来支持肠道健康、填补常见营养缺口，我建议你就从这个开始。

If you're looking for one simple daily habit that supports gut health and fills common nutrient gaps, this is where I'd start.

去了解一下吧。

So check them out.

现在就订阅，体验AG1的下一代产品。

Subscribe today to try the next gen of AG one.

首次下单的听众还能免费获得一瓶D3K2、AG1入门套装和旅行装。

Listeners will also get a free bottle of d three k two and AG one welcome kit and AG one travel packs with your first order.

立即从AG1的下一代产品开始你的健康之旅，亲身体验其中的差别。

So start your journey with AG1's next gen and experience the difference firsthand.

直接访问 drinkag1.com/tim。

Simply go to drinkag1.com/tim.

网址是 drinkag1.com/tim。

That's drinkag1.com/tim.

本集由《五点快讯》赞助播出。

This episode is brought to you by Five Bullet Friday.

它已成为全球最受欢迎的邮件通讯之一，拥有数百万订阅者。

It's become one of the most popular email newsletters in the world with millions of subscribers.

每周五，我会发五条最酷的发现，都是我这周淘到的好东西。

Every Friday, I send out five bullet points of the coolest things I found that week.

完全免费。

It's free.

以后也一直免费，想了解更多请访问 tim.blog/friday。

It's always gonna be free, and you can learn more at tim.blog/friday.

只有通过邮件订阅，才能收到《Five Bullet Friday》。

Five bullet friday is only available if you subscribe via email.

如果我举办小型线下聚会、提供初创公司优先体验、内测资格、特别优惠或其他活动，都会第一时间通知《Five Bullet Friday》的订阅读者。

Also, if I'm doing small in person meetups, offering early access to startups, beta testing, special deals, or anything else, I share it first with Five bullet Friday subscribers.

去看看吧。

So check it out.

tim.blog/friday。

Tim.blog/friday.

再次提醒，地址是 tim.blog/friday，谢谢你的关注。

Again, that's tim.blog/friday, and thanks for checking it

出来。

out.

你是

How

你觉得你的身心状态，不管是情绪上还是精神上，有没有因为长期待在阿姆斯特丹和待在加州而有明显的不同？

have you found your state of being, whether it's your emotional state, mental state, if it differs at all, to differ being, say, in Amsterdam after a number of years versus being in California?

其实差别不大。

Not really that much.

得了吧。

Come on.

圣巴巴拉是个特别美的地方。

Santa Barbara is a gorgeous place.

那地方其实没那么完美。

It was not exactly right.

我说真的，别太较真了。

You know, come on.

我们以前住在俄亥俄州。

We lived in Ohio.

那里的生活

The hard

俄亥俄州艰苦的街头生活。

the hard streets of Ohio.

是啊。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

一住就是二十二年，我们特别喜欢那儿。

And, you know, and for twenty two years, and we loved that.

我们还以为会一辈子待在那里。

We thought we're gonna be there permanently.

那是个美丽的地方，人很好，生活方式也很淳朴，特别适合居住。

It's a beautiful place, wonderful place, great people, you know, a great style of a sort of a country place to live.

所以我们俩都没想到，突然之间就感觉一切都结束了。

So it kinda surprised us that all of a sudden, we just felt like we were done.

我把这叫做因果宿命，或者随你怎么叫吧。

And I call it dharma karma, destiny, whatever it is.

人生里总有些时候，事情就这么自然而然地画上了句号。

It's like somehow just, you know, there are times in our lives where just things just are over.

我们一点都没觉得遗憾。

And so we haven't missed anything at all.

其实生活没什么改变。

It didn't really change.

这里的生活质量真的特别好。

Quality of life here is just so nice.

能这样生活，确实挺好的。

I mean, that's nice to do it.

这里没人乱丢垃圾，也没流浪狗，跟加州不一样。

I mean, there are stray people and no stray dogs here as opposed to California.

这是不是一种长期积累的念头？

Was it a lingering desire over time?

是慢慢想搬，还是某一天、某次谈话后，你突然觉得就到此为止了？

Maybe we should move, or was there an event or a day or a conversation where you just said, this is it.

我们结束了。

We're done.

这其实是一个四五年间慢慢从‘总有一天’转变成‘咱们真该认真考虑了’的过程。

It kind of was a four or five year move from sort of someday maybe to, yeah, let's kinda start to see if we can get real about it.

我们在奥海镇自己盖了个小办公室，所以得慢慢抽身出来。

We had built our own little sort of jewel box office building in Ojai, so we needed to kinda unhook from that.

我们1992年买的那栋房子，美得不得了。

Our house that we bought in 1992 was so gorgeous.

就在奥海镇东端的戈塞尔湖边上。

It was like Gosselt Lake here out on the East End Of Ojai.

那是一小块特别漂亮的地方。

It's just beautiful little property.

院子里有几棵老橡树，地方也特别大。

It had old oaks in it, and it was so far.

本来这房子就快拆了，根本算不上能住。

It would but it was kind of a tear down house to begin with.

我们实在没钱拆了再重建。

We just couldn't afford to tear it down and rebuild.

后来发现白蚁也没那么快就把房子吃垮。

And we discovered the termites don't move that fast.

于是干脆在周围建了个大花园。

So basically, just built a huge garden around it.

后来我们有一英亩地，就盖了个户外壁炉。

Then we had one acre, and we just built outdoor fireplace.

那个花园美得不得了。

We had this stunning garden.

我们有个特别棒的朋友，是景观设计师，那段时间真是过得特别开心。

We had this fabulous friend who was a landscape gardener, and there was just, you know, so we just had a great time.

我们整天都待在户外。

We just lived outdoors.

那真是特别美好。

So that was wonderful.

后来白蚁开始占上风，我和凯瑟琳商量，以我们的风格和她的偏好，真该在这地方盖个全玻璃、混凝土和铁艺结构的新房子。

Then the termites started to win, and we said, you know, with Catherine and my style and her inclinations, we would have rebuilt it with glass and concrete and iron in that environment.

那地方要是那样改，肯定美得不得了，可惜我们没那个钱。

It would have been just gorgeous there, but we didn't have the money to do that.

于是我们就想，干脆给这房子标个价吧。

So we said, you know, let's just put a price on the house.

可那时候楼市太差了。

And they would the market was crap at the time.

我们说，估计也没人会来看房，但反正试试也没损失，标个价吧。

We said, you know, probably nobody is gonna show up, but, you know, come on, let's just put a price on it.

管他呢。

What the heck?

你知道，不管怎样，这房子买起来都会挺有感情的。

You know, it would be an emotional buy anyway.

我们就想，嗯，也许一两年后吧，谁知道呢？

And we said, figured, yeah, maybe one or two years from now, who knows?

结果两周后，有个人直接上门，说：我就按这价格买了。

And two weeks later, somebody walked on and said, I won it right for that price.

我当时就想，这会不会是个信号。

And I went, this might be a sign.

于是我们从那栋房子里搬了出来，但那时候还没准备好去欧洲。

So we got out from under the house and we said, but we weren't quite ready to move to Europe at the time.

那边和本地的生意上，我还有一些事情没做完。

There was still more work I needed to do sort of there and locally with the business.

所以我们决定，先找个过渡的方案吧。

So we said, well, let's kinda get trainer wheels.

于是我们就在圣巴巴拉买了一套联排别墅，住了三年。

So we then got a townhouse in Santa Barbara that we were at for three years.

我们算是给去欧洲之旅装上了辅助轮。

We sort of got trainer wheels for Europe.

我们买了荷兰自行车，住在一个离镇上很近的联排别墅里。

We got Dutch bikes, and we lived in a townhouse close to town.

走路就能到镇上，诸如此类的。

We could walk into town and so forth.

所以，这算是我们过渡到那里的一步。

So, you know, that was kind of our transition move there.

后来某个时候，我们决定：好了，放手一搏吧。

And then at a certain point, we said, okay, let's throw the dart.

该出发了。

Time to go.

我们就这样做了。

That's what we did.

你们就动身了。

Off you went.

越来越多的美国朋友开始把这里当作可能的定居地，我感觉是这样。

It seems to be landing on the radar of more and more of my American friends is a possible home base.

这确实是个很棒的选择。

It's it really is a wonderful choice.

这地方糟透了。

It's a terrible place.

你根本不会想来。

You'd never wanna come.

他们眨眼睛。

They wink.

他们不眨眼睛。

They don't wink.

这里已经满员了。

It's full.

这里已经满员了。

It's full.

他们讨厌狗，街上到处都是流浪汉。

They hate dogs, stray people everywhere.

有些决定，至少在我的人生中，我相信在你的生活中也是如此，它们就像翻过一章，会深刻影响之后的许多事情。

There are certain decisions, at least in my life, I would imagine in your life that are the old chapter changes and end up informing many, many things that come thereafter.

我想问问你，你这辈子做过最有价值的个人投资是什么？

I'd love to ask you, what is one of the most worthwhile or the best personal investments you've ever made?

我来解释一下我的意思。

And I'll explain what I mean.

这可能是钱、时间、精力，或者其他任何东西。

That could be money, time, energy, anything else.

比如，如果我问托尼·罗宾斯，他会提到自己当时当清洁工时攒钱参加的一场吉姆·罗恩的讲座。

So for instance, if I asked Tony Robbins that, he would point to a Jim Rohn seminar that he paid for at the time when he was working as a janitor.

如果我问障碍赛四届世界冠军阿米莉亚·布恩，她说第一次凑齐报名费参加大型赛事时，才真正展现出自己多么适合这项运动。

If I talk to Amelia Boone, who's a four time world champion in obstacle course racing, she'd say the first time she cobbled together the fees to pay for one of the larger competitions, which then ended up showcasing how well built and designed she was for this sport.

你有没有想到过，哪一项投资对你来说特别重要，而且产生了长远的影响？

Does anything come to mind as a particularly important investment that you made that had long standing ripple effects?

是的。

Yeah.

说实话，可能有一打之多，但我先说一个最突出的。

I mean, there are probably a dozen, But I'll tell you one that comes to mind.

这件事我平时很少跟人提起。

I don't think I've shared this with many people.

但你这么一说，我想起多年前在伯克利认识的一个人，他后来成了我特别要好的朋友，也是我的导师。

But as you mentioned it, what pops to mind is I had a guy that became a very good friend of mine and a mentor of mine many many years ago that I met in Berkeley.

就是他主动提出教我空手道。

And he was the guy who offered to teach me karate.

这个人特别有意思。

And he was quite an interesting guy.

他曾经是奥运击剑选手。

He was a Olympic fencer.

他还参加过方程式赛车。

He was a formula racer.

他有黑带段位。

He had a black belt on karate.

他真是个特别有意思的人。

He was just a fascinating guy.

他还是个通灵者。

He was also a psychic.

宾夕法尼亚大学曾经专门研究过他，就因为他那些经历、所见所闻，还有他早年就掌握的那些事——那时候大学刚开始关注通灵现象的来源。

He was studied by the University of Pennsylvania just because of experiences that he had and things that he saw and things that he knew back in the early days when universities were starting to study this psychic phenomenon and where it came from.

后来，迈克尔成了我非常要好的朋友。

And, you know, Michael became a very close friend of mine.

他开始教我空手道的时候，我的生活就开始变了。

And as he started to teach me karate, I sound my life started to change.

之前，我一直在做那些看起来很酷、别人觉得我该做的事。

And I suddenly I'd kind of been doing all the things that were cool to do and that sort of were expected of me to do.

我一直是门门全优的学生。

You know, I'd been a straight a student.

我上过一所特别潮流又酷的大学。

I'd gone to a very hip and cool college.

自然就进了研究生院。

Obviously, got into graduate school.

成绩也一直不错。

You know, had good grades.

娶了个漂亮的老婆。

Married a, you know, beautiful woman.

在伯克利买了房子。

Got a house in Berkeley.

说实话，那时候的生活简直完美到没话说。

I mean, this was, you know, as cool a life as one could have.

可有一天早上我醒来，突然意识到这根本不是我想要的生活。

And then one day I woke up and realized this wasn't the life I wanted.

我其实一直在压抑自己，不敢去追求真正的冒险。

That there was adventure that I was holding myself back from.

我想去探索、去拓展一些事情，这些想法改变了我，你知道的。

That there were things I wanted to explore and expand and so forth that I I wanted to do and that sort of changed me, you know.

有一天，我干脆决定不再回学校了。

One day I just decided to not go back to school.

我不知道加州大学伯克利分校现在还留着我的什么记录，但我就是没回去。

And I have no idea what kind of records the University of California Berkeley has of me, but I just didn't go back.

那不适合我。

I said, not for me.

于是我离开了婚姻，离开了原来的生活，踏上了一段内外兼修的冒险旅程，那真是一段充满冒险的经历。

So left my marriage, left my life, left all of that, and then embarked on a inner and outer adventure that was quite adventurous.

后来我遇到了不少事，你在网上能读到很多关于我的故事。

I ran into, you know, you can read a lot of stuff about me out there.

我经历过不少失败，也碰过不少钉子，但这些都是我探索的一部分。

Ran into a lot of false starts and a lot of things that didn't work very well, but that was all in my exploration.

这根本不是逃避。

It wasn't really escape.

我当时就是到处看，探索了大量东西，后来慢慢找到了更稳定、更内在的方式，让自己的意识和内心更加平和，而不是之前那种随意又零散的状态。

I was just looking, you know, exploring an awful lot of things, and then found more and more stable ways to, and more inner ways to, much more consciousness and stability than kind of random and ad hoc.

这么多年来，我逐渐成长了，外在生活变得安静许多，但内心依然非常丰富。

So I kinda grew up from that over the years, and sort of my outer life became a lot quieter even though my inner life was still quite rich.

我想，对我而言，最关键的决定就是离开别人眼中的那种堪称最好、最酷的生活方式，然后踏上属于自己的路。

So I suppose that that was a hallmark event was for me to make that decision to sort of leave what people would probably consider which, you know, one of the best and coolest kind of lifestyles you would have, and, you know, go on my own trip.

这个决定很难吗？

Was that a difficult decision?

我不太想老生常谈，但这是不是某一天突然决定的，还是慢慢积累起来的？

I mean, and I hate to sound like a broken record, but was this a kind of one day I'm done, or was it something that developed over time?

很多人根本不会离开那样的处境，我意思是……

I mean, that's a lot people don't leave situations that Well, I

具体是几天、几周还是几个月，我已经记不清了，但肯定不是一时冲动。

can't remember exactly whether it was days or weeks or months, but it was certainly wasn't.

我觉得不像是花了好几个月才决定的。

I don't think it was months.

我想，那个念头大概持续了几个星期。

I think it was probably weeks that I had that thought.

但你知道，我这个人特别在乎别人的认可。

But you know, I'm Mr.

我就是个渴望被认可的人。

Approval sucker.

我喜欢别人喜欢我。

You know, I like people's approval.

我不喜欢当叛逆者，也不喜欢格格不入。

I don't like being the rebel and being out.

你懂的。

You know?

我希望别人喜欢我。

I like people to like me.

所以，要放下这一切，真的很难。

And so that was tough to give all that up.

你当时跟妻子/伴侣是怎么谈的？

What was the conversation like with your wife, with your partner at the time?

不太愉快。

Not fun.

是啊。

Yeah.

我的意思是，就直接说‘我今天要走了’，还是提前给了些时间准备？

I mean, was it just short, like, I'm leaving today, or was it more of a lead time more lead time than that?

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

不是。

No.

时间很短。

It was short.