第1集：凯文·罗斯

信用卡公司问：这是你的签名吗？

credit card company, is this your signature?

我就说：搞什么

I'm like, what the

你觉得这是什么？这是个阴茎。当然，这不是我的

fuck do you think? It's a penis. And, of course, it's not my

比...更多的涂鸦阴茎，

more scribbled penises than,

就像，他说，你甚至相信。他说，人们

like, he's like, you even believe. He's like, people

喝醉了就直接签个阴茎。我觉得这挺

are drunk and they just sign a penis. I thought that was pretty

酷的。我怎么从来没这么干过？

awesome. Why have I never done that?

我不知道。

I don't know.

我都不好意思承认自己从没签过阴茎。

I'm embarrassed to admit that I've never signed penis before.

所以如果你去那儿，对，对。见到克里斯拿到那个折扣，就签那个带阴茎标志的。

So if you go there Yeah. Yeah. And you see Chris and you get that discount, sign with the penis.

签那个带阴茎标志的。说到平衡科技之类的，我不把自慰算进去——再提一下这个。每天两次，每次二十分钟的超觉冥想，等等。改天再详谈。我想聚焦在你身上，凯文·罗斯。

Sign with the penis. So speaking of balance technology and so on, so I don't count masturbation just to come back to that. Twenty minutes a day, twice a day, transcendental meditation, blah blah blah. I'll talk about it more another time. I wanna focus on you, Kevin Rose.

科技确实导致很多界限模糊。你得到的是工作生活混合而非平衡。你认为哪一项或两项科技可以没有？电视。绝对可以。

Technology, it does cause a lot of blurring. So you get this work life blending instead of balance. What is one technology you think you could live without or two? Television. Absolutely.

好吧。

Okay.

除了看足球。

Except for football.

好吧。假设现在不行——因为有很多自以为是的旧金山科技从业者，我肯定其他地方也有，他们会说'我从不看电视，我连电视都没有'，然后每天看五个小时该死的YouTube视频。对吧。

Okay. So what if we can't now let's just say because there are a lot of self righteous San Francisco techies and I'm sure they're elsewhere who are like, oh, I never watch television. I don't even have a television. And then watch five hours of fucking YouTube every day. Right.

这太荒谬了。

And that's just ridiculous.

是啊。

Yeah.

你不能说你不看，不不，那没关系。但如果你在网上看美洲豹攻击鳄鱼、小猫视频和跑酷之类的，一看就是四个小时，其实是一回事。

You can't say you don't watch No no, that's fine. But if you're watching for like like jaguars attacking crocodiles and like kitten videos and parkour for four hours on the internet, like it's the same thing.

是啊，时间上确实如此。我是说，他们讨论美国家庭平均看多少电视。没错。别误会，我也喜欢看精彩的电影。

Yeah. Time wise, yeah. I mean, they talk about how much the average American household watches TV. Yeah. And like, don't get me wrong, I do enjoy a great movie.

我也喜欢迷你剧，比如《银河战星》之类的。但只有在它播出了

I enjoy a mini series like like, you know, about Star Galactica or something like that. But only once it's been a

几季后，大家都说

few seasons in and people are

‘你一定要看这个’。是啊。但与其那样，我宁愿花时间经营生意或做自己的事。我觉得这是你之前谈到的企业家、成功企业家的关键特质之一。我认识的所有优秀企业家，他们的工作都会渗透到个人生活中，这很可悲，但却是事实。

like, oh, you gotta see this. Yeah. But like, rather than that, I would rather spend time working on businesses or building my own stuff. I think that's like one of the key you were talking earlier about like traits that entrepreneurs, like successful entrepreneurs have. And like, no all the great entrepreneurs I know, like, they they they work, their projects bleed into their personal life and it's it's sad, but it's true.

是啊。他们专注于那些事。所以你知道，当我过去创办几家公司时，一直都是关于削减那些无关的东西。找出哪些可以修剪、削减，创造更多空间，这样你才能真正投入十到十二小时的工作日。尤其是对你真正热爱的事情时，甚至感觉不到时间流逝。

Yeah. And they they they're focused on that. And so like, you know, when I was building several some of the companies I built in the past, like, it has always been about cutting out that type of stuff. Like figuring out where you can prune and cut and create more space so that you can actually have the time to put in the ten, twelve hour days. And it doesn't feel like it, especially when something you're really passionate about.

看起来你投入的时间并不多。但你要明白，想成为成功的企业家，光朝九晚五工作是不行的。那样根本行不通。

It doesn't feel like you're putting in that much time. But like, it's you you can't expect to be a successful entrepreneur just working at nine to five. Like, it just doesn't work

我想澄清一个普遍误解，关于那个所谓的'四小时工作制'——

And that you know, just to address common, I think misconception with the whole four hour shit that

就是它。大家都会...我懂的。就像我说的那样。他们会说'哦，凯文说得对'。

is it. Everyone's gonna I know. It's like I said that. They're like, oh, Kevin's right.

我知道，蒂姆·费里斯，

I know. Tim Ferriss,

搞什么鬼？

what the fuck?

让我来解释一下。对于没读过这本书的人，《每周工作四小时》讲的是优化每小时产出。仅此而已。重点是把每小时效率提升5到10倍。

So let me address that. The for people who haven't read it, the four hour work week is about optimizing per hour output. That's it. End of story. So you maximize your per hour, but increase it five to 10 x.

假设你是风投或投行从业者，工作时长不变，但产出量会提升。创业者同理。关键在于明智分配时间，专注你热爱的事。对你来说可能是某些创业项目，而对我来说，能像阿基米德杠杆那样产生广泛影响的，就是这本书。

Then if you're, let's say, a VC or investment bank or whatever, you still work the same number of hours, but you just have you have improved volume of output. Same for startup people. The objective is to use your time wisely and allocate it to the things that you're passionate about. And in that case, for you, it would be, let's say, some of your startups that you've worked on. For me, where I feel like I am an Archimedes lever or can utilize Archimedes lever to really have the broadest impact is, say, with the book.

所以我会花三年时间写一本书。这是相当长的时间投入。但目的不是为了消磨时间，这一点要特别强调。我认为一旦你...你应该寻找能让你全情投入的事情。我知道这可能听起来有些消极，但如果你对所做的事情不是百分百确定，那为什么要做呢？

So I'll spend three years on a book. That's a serious investment of time. But, the the objective is not to be idle, so just to emphasize that. And I think that once you've you should be looking for something that consumes you in a way. And I know that might sound negative to some people, but it's like if you're not a hell yes about what you're doing, then why are you doing it?

或者你应该寻找其他事情？

Or should you be looking for something else?

是的。我觉得这是个

Yeah. I think that's a

很好的观点。那么电视。好吧。有道理。说得对。

good point. So television. Alright. Fair enough. Speaking alright.

我们...我们别谈电视了。你提到了纪录片。有什么喜欢的纪录片吗？

Let's let's drop TV. You mentioned documentary. Any favorite documentaries?

嗯，我是说，有...天哪。我得回顾一下我看过的那些。比如，《食品公司》之类的。

Yeah. I mean, there's oh, gosh. I'd have to go back and look at the stuff that, I've watched. Like, what is it? Like, Food Inc.

《食品公司》。《食品公司》是一部

Food Inc's. Food Inc's a

说得好。那个真的很棒。我非常喜欢那部作品。它某种程度上揭示了工业化食品加工的过程有多么肮脏可怕。嗯。

good one. That's a great one. I really enjoyed that one. It kinda, like, shed some light on, like, the industrial food process and how nasty and horrible it is. Mhmm.

那绝对是我的首选。我没有什么特别让人兴奋的推荐，《走钢丝的人》倒是值得一看。

That's definitely top of my list. I don't really have any that jump out as being super exciting that's Man on Wire is worth watching.

听起来很有趣。你看过

That's fun. Have you seen

《谁杀死了电动车》吗？没看过。那部好看吗？我听说挺不错的。格雷厄姆给了好评。

who killed the electric car? No. Is that any good? I I heard that was pretty good. Graham's given the thumbs up.

格雷厄姆还是...我们的搭档。这个三人播客。《谁杀死了电动车》？讲什么的？

Graham or or Our partner. This three person podcast. Who killed the electric car? What's it about?

嗯，就是讲电动车第一次尝试起步时是怎么夭折的。对，就是通用汽车的EV1。挺有意思的。

Well, just the the the how the electric car died the first time around when they try to get off the ground. Yeah. The yeah. The GM EV one. Interesting.

是哪个公司曾经推出过Nova车型来着？感谢红酒让我英语说得这么糟糕。还有

Who was it that came out with the Nova at one part at at at one point? Thank you wine for that English fuck up. And

Nova？什么？Nova。

The Nova? What? The Nova.

然后他们试图在西班牙语国家销售，结果发现Nova的意思是'不走'。所以

And then they tried to sell it in Spanish speaking countries, and it was the Nova. It doesn't go. And so

他们卖不出去这辆车。哦，这真是

they couldn't sell the car. Oh, that's

有趣。哎呀。好吧。如果你能让时间停止，永远停留在某个年龄，你会选择几岁？

funny. Oops. Okay. If you could stop the clock and live forever at a particular age, what age would you choose

然后呢？老兄，这问题问得好。可能...我是说，这确实是个好问题，因为你显然不知道未来会怎样。但我会说就目前...就像我整体的...我现在

and what? Man, that's a good one. Probably I mean, that's a good question because, obviously, you don't know how things are gonna feel in the future. But I would say as far as, like, my my general I'm

我确定你的关节和肌肉会变好

sure your joints and muscles will improve

随着时间推移。

as you go there.

斯潘克，我曾住在你的

Spunk, I was living in your

你的那股韧劲和从困境中恢复的能力

your spunkiness and and just ability to recover from

你的葡萄酒做得真糟糕

You're doing a shitty job on your wine.

老兄，我我我说过我来之前喝了一杯，两杯。所以不。不。不。

Dude, I I I told you I had a glass, two glasses before I got here. So No. No. No.

我不是想纵容你

I'm not trying to be an enabler.

我只是

I'm just

说你做得太差劲了。你在努力

saying you're doing a shitty job. You're trying

在你这破节目里推广酗酒，第一期播客有点硬核。我在等

to promote alcoholism on your shit. First podcast, it's a little hardcore. I'm waiting for the

等着酒精品牌赞助我的第三期节目。

waiting for the alcohol brands to sponsor me for my third episode.

是的。你刚才想问什么问题来着？

Yes. What was the question again you wanna know?

任何年龄。你当时在哪？

Any age. Where were you?

24岁。

24.

24岁。好吧。嗯。我我觉得差不多。我想24岁

24. Okay. Yeah. I I That sounds about right. I think the 24

我是说，二十多岁中期算是你的黄金时期对吧？是的。

I mean, it's your mid twenties are kind of like your prime. Right? Yeah.

身体上，你最受不了哪些小事？哪些事情会让你抓狂？

Physically What are some of your pet peeves? What are the things that drive you insane?

让我抓狂的事情之一就是，我觉得在我们这个行业里，有很多人

Pet peeves one of the things that drives me insane is that I feel as though in our industry, there are a lot of people

都是技术型的。

that are Tech.

技术型的人往往不够直接。当人们拐弯抹角时真的让我很恼火。嗯。其实你只需要说出真相，因为尽管现在会让人痛苦难受，但至少大家知道你的立场。是的。

Tech, that aren't really direct. It drives it drives me nuts when people beat around the bush. Mhmm. And really, you just need to say the truth because, like, even though it's painful and it stings now, at least people know where you stand. Yeah.

我觉得这能为所有人节省大量时间。真的省下很多时间。而且我认为这就像是

I saves feel everybody a lot of time. It saves everyone a ton of time. And I feel that that's like What

能举个具体例子吗？什么情况下会这样？

would be an example of that? What circumstance?

就是感觉，你知道，我经常看到这种情况，甚至在我的风险投资领域也是如此。比如很多人会说，我最近改变了拒绝别人的方式。

It just feels that you know, I I see this all the time and even my world in the venture capital world. Like, a lot of people will say, I I recently changed the way that I say no to people now.

因为这非常有趣

Because this is of great interest

对我来说。我想说大多数时候，就像风险投资家那样，当你出去创业想要融资时，你会见到风投公司的人，他们坐下来让你展示想法。通常24到48小时后你会收到邮件，说他们想继续推进还是不推进。而拒绝邮件往往像是'我和合伙人讨论过，目前觉得不太合适'，或者'我手头投资太忙没时间接新项目，但还是谢谢你的时间'之类的套话。

to me. I would say that the majority of the time, like, venture capitalists, when you go out and you're an entrepreneur and you're looking to raise some money and, you know, you meet with someone at a VC firm and they sit down and they say, oh, show me your idea and then you go through it. And then typically you get an email twenty four to forty eight hours later saying, this is how we wanna proceed or not proceed. And oftentimes the email on not proceeding is like, you know, I talked with our partnership and I don't think it's a good fit at this time or you know, I'm so busy with my current investments that I I don't think I have time to take on anything new, but thank you for your time and like it it really Let's talk let's talk

六个月后再说之类的。

in six months or whatever.

这太扯了，老兄。

It's such b s, man.

委婉的拒绝。

Soft maybe slash no.

委婉的拒绝。我觉得挺有意思——前几天我正坐着写拒绝邮件，以前我通常会写'认真考虑过了，确实不是我们想投资的方向，谢谢但希望未来能保持联系'之类的套话对吧？

Soft maybe and it's just like I was like it's funny. I I just the other day, was sitting there. I was writing a no, like, saying no to someone email, which for me, in the past, has typically been like, you know, thought about it. Really don't think it it's it's something that that that we wanna invest in. Thanks, but I'd love to talk to you in the future blah blah blah, right?

就是那种随处可见的标准回复。然后我突然想，天啊，我必须试着对创业者直截了当，看看对方反应。虽然可能会显得我很混蛋——这就是我的顾虑。

The typical one that you read everywhere else, right? And then, you know, I just started thinking like, gosh, there's gotta be I'm gonna try and be very direct with the entrepreneur and just like see what the response is like because I feel like that's just like, I might come off as a dick and that's the that's the worry. Right? The concern is that

你刚来

you just come

表现得就像你只是在做他那样

off like you're just being He's

像个混蛋，他们应该在其他地方跟你谈。

a dick and they should talk to you other places.

但你知道吗，我觉得至少人们会明白，你知道的，我们清楚他的立场。

But you know what, but I I think that like at least people would be like, you know what, We know where he stands.

是啊。是啊。

Yeah. Yeah.

没错。所以我上周第一次尝试了。那位创业者回复说，老兄，谢谢你的诚实。我

Exactly. So I I tried it for the first time last week, actually. The entrepreneur wrote back and he was like, dude, thanks for being honest. I

很感激。你是怎么表达的？我很好奇，因为这是很多人纠结的问题

appreciate it. What was your wording? I'm curious because this is something think a lot of people battle

关于如何拒绝。我喜欢这个创意，但我觉得这个领域总体上相当乏味。

with. How to say no? So I like the idea. I thought that the space was generally really boring.

是啊。

Yeah.

我当时不知道这会发展成多大的事业。他们确实有一定的市场吸引力，显然能因此获得下一轮融资。但这并不是让我兴奋到会积极回复邮件、充满干劲的事情，对吧？于是我给他写了封邮件说：听着，我觉得我不是你们合适的合作伙伴。

I didn't know how big a business it would become. I thought that they had decent traction. They were clearly gonna get their next round of funding because of that traction. But it wasn't something where I was gonna be over the top excited about to answer their emails and get pumped up about, right? And so I wrote the guy an email and I was like, listen, I don't think I'm the right partner for you.

我认为这个想法本身没问题，但我对这个领域完全提不起兴趣。它无法激发我的热情，而且当你需要有人支持帮助时，我觉得我可能不会是最积极响应的那个合作伙伴，大概就是这样。他回复说：老兄，感谢你的直接反馈，或者说诚实反馈，期待下次你进城时见面——因为他当时在外地。这感觉...哇，这是我第一次有这样的体验。

I think the idea is sound, but I am not excited about this space at all. It doesn't get me excited and I just don't think like when you need someone to reach out to and to help you out, like, I'm gonna be the one that's gonna to jump back and and be the the right partner, you know, more or less. And he wrote back and he's like, dude, thanks for the the direct feedback or honest feedback and, you know, look forward to see you next time you're in town because he's out of town. Cool. And it was like, it was the first time where I was like, wow.

其实我

I actually

这样的创始人也很难得，我是这么认为的。

like It's also a good founder. You know, I take it.

以前和某些工程师合作时我也这样做过，总觉得...这总是...我有点想开始贯彻这种做法，因为我认为这是正确的选择。

I've done that before on on in working with some engineers, and I I feel like it just it always I I kinda like I wanna start living by that because I think it's the right thing to do.

所以我认为你是个非常优秀的沟通者。同时你也是个很棒的谈判专家。我亲眼见过你的表现。我觉得这两者密切相关。你认为自己是个好的沟通者吗？为什么是或不是？

So I think I think you're a very good communicator. You're also a very good negotiator. I've I've seen you live. I think both are very interrelated. Do you think you're a good communicator, and why or why not?

好的。我们先谈这个，然后显然核心问题是：什么造就了一个优秀的沟通者/谈判者？我认为这两者是相辅相成的。

Yeah. Let's do that first, and then the, obviously, the overarching question is what makes a good communicator slash negotiator? I think they go together.

这个很难说...说来好笑，我今天刚在谈汽车租赁的事，我觉得自己谈判水平一般，因为那个销售完全碾压了我。

I think on the that's hard because I I it's funny. I was just negotiating a car lease today, I don't think I'm that good of a negotiator because this guy is, like, mopped the floor with me.

是啊。但你根本不在乎租车条款。这才是原因。我见过你谈判真正在意的事情，那时你表现得很好。

Yeah. But you don't give a shit about your car lease. That's why. Yeah. That's probably I've seen you negotiate things you care about, and you're good.

不...这倒是事实。在沟通方面，我感觉...怎么说呢...

No. That's that's probably true. So on the communications front, I I feel that, like, plus that

那家伙重复同样的谈判流程都上百万次了

guy's done the same fucking negotiation a million

他确实很专业。该死的...

times. He's really good. Does does damn

他说，我很高兴你问了那些废话。让我知道。

car He's like, I'm so glad you asked that blah blah blah bullshit. Let me know.

我知道。今天我刚走出那个地方，走在街上，那家伙就发短信叫我回去，说我们可以谈谈。我就想，为什么45分钟前我在你办公室坐着的时候不谈？现在却说有回旋余地了。

I know. Like, verbally walked out of the place today, walked down the street, and the guy's texting me, like, come back. Like, we can talk about this. And I'm like, why didn't we talk about this twenty minutes ago when I sat in your office for forty five minutes? Like, he's like, oh, could there's wiggle room now.

我就纳闷，45分钟前怎么就没有回旋余地？你还给我端来那杯难喝的咖啡，我坐在办公室里汗流浃背。热死了。总之就是...我讨厌...我真希望...

And I'm like, how is there there wasn't wiggle room forty five minutes ago and you've brought me that crappy coffee and I'm like sitting there in the office sweating my ass off. It's hot. Anyway, it was just like I I hate I wish to

消失吧。

get lost.

我需要创立一家新的汽车初创公司，因为行业需要直白透明的实话实说，不需要谈判。虽然现在还有很多汽车公司，但沟通方面...虽然感谢夸奖，但人们总说我有时会因此惹麻烦——当年在DIG做公关时，我总是口无遮拦地说大实话，虽然未必是最佳策略。

I need to invent a new car startup because like there needs to be like straight transparent real talk like no negotiation. I don't know. There's still a lot of car companies out there. But communication wise, I feel that, you know, I don't know that I'm I'm I'm I I appreciate the compliment, but I think for me, it's it's what people have said is that I don't really sometimes I get in trouble for this. I I always did when I was doing PR at DIG and I was like, I would just say whatever was the truth and not necessarily the best thing to say, but just really the honest things.

就像当年我在运营dig时遇到用户集体抗议——那是个高度社交化的网站，数百万用户在网上反对我们。我会直接对着镜头说：'没错，糟透了。服务器崩了，我们现在压力山大。'

Like when we were having user revolts on our site, when when I was running dig, the very like, it was a very social site. So we had, like, millions of users revolting against us on online. Like, you know, I would get in front of the camera and just be like, yeah, sucks. Our servers are falling over. We're getting crushed right now.

然后公关部门就会说：'下次你应该这样措辞...' 但我觉得这种套路很虚伪。问题就在于——如果你照本宣科，人们根本不会信任你。

Blah blah blah. And like, you know, PR would be like, okay, you can kinda like say like this and like, you should word it like this next time. And it's like, I don't know, man. I think like a lot of suck that at that. But that's the thing is like because people don't trust you if you're reading a Exactly.

那是一种陈旧的处理方式和思维模式。现在人们一眼就能看穿这种把戏。所以实际上你只需要说实话。不管情况好坏，比如我有次惹了麻烦，另一次在台上讨论我们的工程问题时...

And that is an old, like, process and old way of thinking. Like, people nowadays can see right through that crap. And so, like, literally just you have to tell the truth. I mean, it's like, you just have whether it sucks or doesn't suck, like, you know, I got in trouble one time. Another time when I was on stage, was talking about our engineering problems that did

是谁批评了你？是董事会吗，那些高管们？

Who chastised you? This is board of directors, desktops?

其实是这样的...我在这里分享些内部消息，我们在Facebook有个前DIG员工组成的群组。嗯哼。首先我...

This was this was, like, actually so, I mean well, I'm sharing some insider information here, but we have, like, we had this, like, group on Facebook that was a bunch of ex DIG employees. Uh-huh. And, you know, I first of all

专门为前DIG员工设立的。

Dedicated to being ex DIG employees.

他们确实是...但我也在那个群里，因为当时我已经离开DIG了。责任确实从一开始就在我，毕竟我是公司创始人。所以最终责任都在我这儿，对吧。

They they they they were, but, like, they I was also a member of that group because I had since left DIG. Yeah. And, you know, the blame is definitely on me from the get go because I'm one that founded the company. So, like, I can I can't can't really the the buck stops with me? Right.

但我有权反思并找出错误，希望未来能避免重蹈覆辙。我当时说了很多自认做错的事，包括没有像杰克·多西说的那样——在我采访他时他说过，要持续优化团队配置，确保人岗匹配。作为成功企业家，这是他一直在实践的。

But, you know, I'm allowed to tweak and figure out what I did wrong so I can hopefully avoid those mistakes in the future. Of course. And so I was saying a lot of what I thought I did wrong, including not, like, as Jack Dorsey puts it, the in an interview that I did with him, he he says that you need to constantly be pruning and editing your team to make sure that you have the the right people in the right roles. Yep. And then that's like something that you as a successful entrepreneur, he has constantly done.

这意味着有时要和员工进行艰难对话并解雇人。我在台上谈到这些，说会如何不同处理等等，结果惹恼了很多前员工。

That means sometimes having very difficult tough conversations with employees and letting people go. Yep. And so I talked about that on stage and talked about how would have done things differently, blah blah blah, and I upset a lot of of past employees.

是什么让他们不高兴了？

I What what upset them?

嗯，就是当他们认为责任在上层管理时，我却把责任归咎于工程部门，诸如此类。别误会，责任绝对在上层管理，而且我认为到处都有责任。就像，我可以指出一千件我们下次会做得不同的事情。

Well, just that I would put the blame on engineering when they thought the blame was on upper management and blah blah blah. And and don't get me wrong, the blame was absolutely on upper management, and there was there's I think that there's, you know, there's you there's there's blame to be put all over the place. Like, it's it's like, I could point to a thousand different things that that we would do differently next time around.

好吧，如果我试着回到最初的问题，你似乎出奇地适应进行令人不适的对话。我见过几次你现场这样做，你要求的东西可能是别人不会要求的，但你应该要求。你说的话可能不符合某些政治正确的标准，但你说了。你是怎么做到这一点的？因为很多人失败的原因，无论是谈判加薪、谈判任何类型的交易、要求他们想要的任何东西，还是坦白以避免一些巨大的公关丑闻，只是因为他们一开始就不愿意进行那些令人不适的对话。

Well, if I if I were to just try to bring it back to this original question, it seems like you're surprisingly comfortable having uncomfortable conversations. And I've seen you do this live a couple of times where you're asking for things that perhaps other people wouldn't ask for, but that you should ask for. You're saying things that maybe you shouldn't say by some political correct standard politically correct standard, but you do. And how did you get to that point? Because it seems like the reason a lot of people fail in, whether it's negotiating for a raise or negotiating any type of deal or asking for anything they want or coming clean and avoiding some huge fucking PR scandal just by being honest at the outset, they're not willing to have those uncomfortable conversations.

那么，你为什么觉得自己这么适应这样做呢？

So why do you think you're so comfortable doing that?

我想可能是因为我想避免以后进行更困难的对话，如果第一次没有说实话被抓到的话。是的，进行对话说‘哦，是的，我在最初的对话中没有完全揭露一切’要困难得多。而且我觉得，我不知道，伙计，如果你承认自己的错误，别人就不能在你身上指出来。

I think it's probably because I wanna avoid an even more difficult conversation down the road if I'm caught not speaking the truth the first time around. Yeah. It's a lot more difficult to have the conversation to say like, oh, yeah, I kinda wasn't like fully bringing everything to light in this original conversation. So and and I feel like I just I don't know, man. Like, if you admit your faults, then other people can't point them out in you.

嗯，你明白我的意思吗？是的，当然。如果我能...是的。

Mhmm. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Definitely. Like, if I if I can Yeah.

你的意思是，这和那些自嘲的脱口秀演员一样。这是一个非常英联邦的表达，但是，在观众之前自嘲，这样他们就能掌控局面，做他们想做的事。

You make I mean, it's the same thing with, like, stand up comics who take who take the piss. That's a really fucking commonwealth expression, but, make fun of themselves before the audience can to just, like, steal the thunder in that way so that they can run the show and do what they wanna do.

是的。也许这就是原因，我之前从没想过这个问题。你提起这个很有趣，但我觉得很可能是因为我想把所有负面的事情都说出来，这样我们就能排除这些障碍。这样我就不用担心被人嘲笑。特别是在Digg的时候，我们时刻都处于严密的审视之下。

Yeah. Maybe that's that I I think, yeah, I never thought about this before. It's funny that that you bring it up, but, I I feel like that's probably the reason why because I want to say everything there is to be said that's negative so that we can get that out of the way. So I don't have to be ridiculed in some way. Like, I I think that at Digg, especially, we were under a lot of scrutiny all the time.

没错。因为我们有非常直言不讳的受众，他们经常搞垮网站和服务器，因为我们流量太大了。

Yeah. Because we had such a very vocal audience, like, that was taking down sites and servers and because we had so much traffic.

搞垮了我的服务器。第一次服务器宕机我记得很清楚，那是在纽约，我写了一篇很奇怪的博客叫《从极客到怪胎：如何在二十天内增肌34磅》

Took down my server. First time my server my servers got taken down, I remember very clearly, it was in New York City and I had this very odd blog post called from geek to freak, how I gained 34 pounds of muscle in twenty

八天。对。

eight days. Yeah.

那篇文章登上了DIG首页，结果把我整个该死的网站都搞垮了。

That hit the DIG front page and took down my whole fucking site.

然后它

And it

成了件大事，那对我来说是个非常重要的决定性时刻。要知道，Digg在很长一段时间里影响力非常大。

was like a big deal, and that was a very important defining moment for me. Remember. I mean, Big was extremely powerful for a very long time.

是的。正因为如此，媒体总是喜欢这样，比如，

Yeah. It was and and because of a lot of that, the press used to always love to, like,

坐下来问我们，

sit down with us and be like,

“你们如何看待自己的观众？他们会对某些用户发表这类评论，或者有些帖子——你知道的，那些穿比基尼的女孩上了首页，获得大量点击，然后男人们都在说这些粗俗的话——这让你感觉如何？”而我总觉得被这类问题狂轰滥炸，像是“你们真差劲，告诉我们为什么你们不差劲”。最后我只能说，好吧，你说得对，我们确实差劲。这种时候你只能认了。

what do you think about your audience and like the fact that they make these types of comments about certain users and or there's a post about, you know, you know, certain ladies in bikinis and they hit the front page and it got all these clicks and all these men are saying these really crude things like, how does that make you feel and I I felt like I was always being hit with all these kind of like like, you suck, tell us why you don't suck questions, you know. That that I was just like, you know what, you're right, we do suck, you know. It's like that's only the thing you can do.

人性就是这么残酷。抱歉，但如果你有——我是说，你们每月独立访客量是多少？

Like, humanity's fucking brutal. Like, I'm sorry. I'm like If you have how many, I mean, how many monthly unique visitors do you have?

3800万，是的。

A 38,000,000 was Yeah.

所以如果

It's like so if

你拿30个，比如，在

you take 30, like, people in the

同一个礼堂里总会有那么几个混蛋，你不可能完全避开他们。抱歉这么说。想象一下礼堂里上千人，就像任何学校的演出那样，对吧？

same assholes in a fucking auditorium, like, you're gonna have not assholes. I'm sorry. Like, a thousand people in an auditorium. Like, think of any school play. Right?

或者随便哪个少年联赛比赛。三百个爸爸里，总会有四五个混蛋爸爸在那儿大喊大叫，脸都涨得通红。所以你把三千八百万人口按这个比例推算。

Or, like, any little league game. Right. And you have And you have, like, 300 dads, they're always gonna be four fucking asshole dads who are, like, yelling and screaming and blue in the face. Right. So you take 38,000,000 people and you extrapolate it out.

当然，你他妈肯定会遇到几个网络喷子。

Of course, you're gonna have a fucking messenger.

是啊。我当时突然意识到，到那种时候你只能投降别硬刚，就听着。实际上这样效果特别好，因为人们会觉得'哦他也是普通人'。虽然我确实...

Yeah. It was so I I just realized that, like, at that point, you just gotta surrender and not fight and just be like, listen. And and it actually helps out a ton because they people are like, oh, he's just human. He's like, he's Well, I do

我觉得很重要的一点是，不是要强调，但至少要提一下自己不擅长的事。这既能为你后面说的话提供背景，也能帮你筛选用户群。通过说明谁不适合用你的产品来筛选用户，懂我意思吗？你觉得自己在哪方面是世界级的？

you know, that's really important, I think, is to emphasize, not emphasize, but at least mention the things you suck at as a way of qualifying not like credentializing everything you say after that, but also qualifying the users that come to your site. Right? So or that use your product by explaining who should not use your product, if that makes sense. What would you say that you are world class at?

我觉得每隔几年，我都能想出一些前所未见的点子。我这辈子最享受的事——除了感情方面比如找到人生伴侣、约会那些——职业生涯中最棒的就是那些灵光乍现的时刻。当你想到一个原创点子，发现这从没人做过，然后你做出原型，看着成品感叹'哇'。

I would say every couple years, I will come up with something idea wise that I have never seen done before. And so the thing that I enjoy more than anything else, of anything I've ever done in life, outside of, like, the emotional side of, like, you know, finding your wife and dating and things like that has to be Things like that. Well, I'm just saying, like, that's that's another thing because that's awesome too. But I'm I'm saying, like, career wise has to be those moments where you have those original ideas, you know, that they they come to you that you're just like, this has never been done before. And you you prototype it and you build it and you look at it and you're just like, wow.

虽然不知道会不会火，但我是第一个想到的人。Digg历史上我们有10到15次这样的时刻，创造了后来被数百万人使用的东西。那种感觉太棒了，老兄。你会对它产生情感联结。有趣的是，Digg早期做的很多功能后来被其他产品沿用，从Facebook的点赞按钮（我们最早搞的社交投票系统）到实时投票数据显示这些核心机制，最终都出现在了比我们规模大得多的产品里。

Like, I don't know if this is ever gonna be anything big, but I'm the first person that thought of this. Like, that is a really cool idea and like we had, you know, maybe 10 or 15 moments throughout Diggs history where we were the first ones to do some of these things and like, that is the coolest feeling, man. When you create something that like millions of people end up using and you're just like, dude, I made that. Like, it's like, you feel so emotionally tied to it and then you also you know, it's funny, it's because we built a lot of stuff very early days at Digg that went on to be used in many other products, including everything from, you know, stupid things like Facebook using a like button when we, like, created social voting way back in the day and had it spread to profiles and a lot of the the kind of nuts and bolts of how that stuff worked. Like a lot of that eventually, you know, some of the common stuff that we did with the voting and like a lot of like really crazy stuff we did on like showing real time data around votes and like all this stuff eventually made it into much bigger products than what we had created.

但是老兄，知道你曾短暂参与其中并扮演了一个小角色，那真的很酷。就像...我记得扎克伯格穿着人字拖来到我在DIG的办公室，坐在地板上跟我闲聊，那时Facebook规模比Digg还小，他跟我讨论他想在Facebook上构建的东西，觉得我们超厉害。现在回想起来，我当时还在想‘这小子是谁啊’，如今只觉得‘天啊，那太酷了’。

But, dude, to know that you were there for a minute and played a little role in that, that, you know, that was really cool. Like Yeah. I can remember when, like, Zuckerberg came down to my office at DIG, sat on my floor with his flip flops on, you know, Facebook at the time was like smaller than Digg and was like shooting the shit with me about like what he wanted to build at Facebook and like, you know, thought we were the shit. And I was like, damn, that was the know, now that I look back on that at that time, I was like, who is this kid? Now I look back on that and I'm like, dude, that's so cool.

那个瞬间，我们创造的东西让他着迷，他觉得非常酷，并把其中一些想法融入了他后来构建的产品中，最终推向的受众规模是我们的百倍。但老兄，能成为那场运动的一部分，是我永远珍视的经历。

Like that that was like a moment where like, we had created something that he was like caught up in and thought it was really cool and baked some of those ideas into some of the stuff that he built and went on to to to obviously launch to an audience that's a 100 x what we ever were. Yeah. But like, dude, just being a part of that, like, that whole movement was was something that I will forever cherish,

你知道的。

you know.

所以你的问题是我真正擅长什么？我想说，我享受那些时刻。如果说我能给那些关注我作品的人带来什么，我希望这辈子能多创造几个这样的瞬间。是的，真正推出些让人惊叹的东西——不一定要规模宏大，微小也可以。

And it's like, those what I so your question is like, what am I really good at? It's like, I enjoyed those moments and I think that, like, if anything I can bring to my my like, the people that have followed my work and that continue to follow the stuff that I do, I hope to have a few more of those in my lifetime. Yeah. And and build actually launch some stuff that people are like, wow, he he it doesn't have to be big. It can be super small.

我只想让人们觉得‘哇，这我从没见过’。懂吗？我喜欢那种感觉。

It just I I want people to think like, wow, that's something I've never seen before. You know? I like that feeling.

所以我完全感同身受，比起规模化，我更享受新颖性、创造性和那个灵光乍现的时刻。有时这反而对我不利。比如量化自我运动，我从第一次会议就参与其中，2010年2月出版《每周工作4小时》意味着我在2007-2008年就开始研究，甚至更早就开始记录了。

So I feel exactly the same way, and I enjoy the newness, the inventiveness, the moment more than the scaling. And I think it's sometimes to my detriment. Right? So you say, look at the quantified self movement and so on. It's like I was at the first meeting, been there since the beginning, did the four hour body, published 02/2010, which means that I was doing research in 02/2008, 02/2007, recording did even before that.

前几天iPhone发布会你看了吗？关于生物识别的部分？不，不是那个。

And Did you see with the iPhone announcement a couple days ago? Biometrics? No. No. Not that.

新芯片。叫什么来着？M7芯片。不对。他们正在把它集成到芯片里。

The new chip. The what is it called? The m seven chip. No. They're so they're building in to a chip.

他们把计步功能都卸载了，能判断你是否处于良好状态。在车里、走路、跑步时，所有这些都将以超低功耗集成在芯片上，持续运行。这将支持整套很酷的量化自我功能，而且效果不错。

They're offloading all the pedometer stuff, they can tell when you're nice. In a car, when you're walking, when you're running, all that stuff is gonna be built on chip super low power, always on. So it's gonna power like a whole another, like, suite of of Cool. Quantified self stuff. But, like Nice.

说到你的观点，你早就接触这些东西了，对吧？现在它才真正进入主流。

To your point, like, you're on that shit a long time ago. Right. And and now it's actually, like, hitting mainstream.

没错，现在进入主流了。像戴夫·阿斯普雷这样聪明的人——防弹咖啡创始人等等，他个人赚的钱可能比我多得多。但我更喜欢在宇宙大爆炸般的初创阶段参与，而不是扩张期。

Right. Now it's hitting mainstream. So you have I think people like, Dave Asprey, who's who's quite smart, Bulletproof Coffee and so on, will probably generate more revenue for himself than I ever will personally. But I enjoy being there inception at, like, the big bang moment Mhmm. More than the scaling.

这是我纠结的地方，因为我觉得，妈的，要是我能晚一两年赶上那波潮流，让别人去做所有研发...

And it's it's something that I struggle with because I feel like, fuck. Like, you know, if I could have caught that wave of, like, a year or two later, let someone else do all the r and

对。

d Right.

你本可以更有效地变现。

You could monetize it so much more effectively.

现在还不算太晚，老兄。

It's not too late, man.

但我最享受的就是那个灵光乍现的时刻。对。我是说，好吧。那行。所以你觉得我该怎么做？

But I enjoy the inception moment more than anything else. Yeah. Well, I mean, okay. So fine. So, like, what do you think I should do?

我是说，我认为

I mean, I think

不是关于为时不晚的问题。我是

Not in terms of not being too late. I'm

好奇。说实话，量化自我这些东西，就像最近安卓系统更新后，他们已经在API层面自动集成了。能判断你在走路、跑步还是在车里。苹果三天前刚在他们的最新芯片里宣布了同样的功能。

curious. I mean, honestly, the quantified self stuff, like, just now in the last Android release, they're now automatically building in at the API level. They can tell whether you're walking, running, in a car. Apple just announced that in their latest chip, like, three days ago. Same thing.

这些API和接口都已经准备好了。是的。你想在上面开发什么取决于你。你可以基于它做很多不同的东西。没错。

Like, the APIs and the hooks for all this stuff are there. Yeah. It's up to you what you wanna build on top of it. You could do you could do so many different things on top of that. Yeah.

我只是觉得现在还处于早期阶段。想想你看过的所有资料，关于实时阅读之类的。老兄，我第一次...说起来挺有趣的。我给你讲个蒂姆·费里斯的故事。我记得你书里也提到过。我们当时一起看电影，你还记得是哪部电影吗？

I'm just And it's early days, man. Like, if you think about all the stuff that you've looked at, like, as far as reading, like, real time I mean, dude, when I first it's funny. I'll tell a great story, a Tim Ferriss story. Like, I think this is in your book too. We were hanging out and we're watching a movie, do you remember what movie that was?

这是几年前的事了。

This is years ago.

那是《无耻混蛋》对吧？混蛋。

It was was Inglourious Basterds. Right? Bastard.

哦天哪，那部电影太棒了。我超爱那部电影。

Oh, man. That was such a great movie. I love that movie.

确实是部好电影。

It was a good movie.

当时我们在看《无耻混蛋》，蒂姆正在为他的书做调研。

So we're watching Inglourious Basterds and, like, Tim's doing research for his book.

不，这不是我的书。这是...哦你

This is No. This isn't my book. This is Oh, you

当时是在为你的书做准备对吧？

were doing something for your book. Right?

是的。我我本来想，但但是不。我们我们还没谈过这个

Yeah. I I was, but but no. We we haven't talked about this

不过。好吧。是啊。是啊。我们当时坐在电影院里，坐下后，你居然都没想跟我说句话。

though. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So we're sitting there in the movie theater and, like, we sit down and, like, literally, you didn't even think to say a thing to me until we sat down.

我们之前明明还在一起玩什么的，结果你一坐下就说，兄弟，我在做这个疯狂的实验之类的。什么情况？然后你掀起衣服，腰上还插着个注射器。

Like, we were, like, hanging out before then or something and, like, you sit down and, like, you're, like, dude, I'm doing this crazy experiment or something like that. I'm, what what's what's up? And you, pull up your shirt and you have, like, some kind of syringe in your side.

我有。我植入了一个持续血糖监测仪，就在我的腹部。

I have it. I had a glue I had a a continuous glucose monitor implanted into my side, my abdomen.

你身上插着针头，还有个无线的小玩意儿

You have but you have like a needle in you and then a wireless little Two

有两三根针头植入皮下连接着发射器，数据会传到我皮带上的无线接收器。

or three needles stuck under my skin implanted into a transmitter that then went to a a wireless receiver that was on my belt.

是啊是啊。我当时就想，这家伙在搞什么鬼？这简直是量化自我的极端案例，而且这还是多年前的事。

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, what the fuck is this guy doing? Like, that was like but like, talk about quantified self stuff. I mean, this was years ago.

是啊。哦，就像

Yeah. Oh, like

很久以前。

Long time ago.

而且你想想看，我们现在仍然无法获取那些数据。是的。不过，至少在我看到的一些外部资料中，有很多关于收集类似数据的新方法讨论。比如，现在有一堆新方法可以测量心率，测量...就是你身上散发出的汗液那种。

And and you think about like, we don't we still don't have that data available to us. Yeah. But like, there's there's a lot of talk in in at least in some of the stuff that I've seen at external ways of gathering very similar data. Like, they're a bunch of new ways that like get it heart rate, get it. That was the the perspiration that you have coming off of you.

就像一堆

Like a bunch

嗯，不同的...比如皮肤电反应。对，没错。这很常见。是的。

of Well, different there's like galvanic skin response. Right. Exactly. It's common. Yeah.

有一家初创公司。我不认为

There's a startup. I don't think

我谈论的是

I talk about

还没呢。Basis很酷。我是Basis的投资者。Basis手表非常棒。还有另一家初创公司。

it yet. Basis is cool. I'm an investor in Basis. So the Basis watch is very cool. There's another startup.

希望很快能聊聊这个，它基本上像是一个24小时跟踪所有数据的尼古丁贴片。太酷了。真他妈酷。是的，超级超级酷。

Hopefully, I can talk about sometime soon, which is basically like a nicotine patch that tracks all that stuff twenty four seven. That's cool. Fucking cool. Yeah. It's super super cool.

但我想说的是，在这个领域，显然有很多讨论和事物的起源——你显然在其中扮演了重要角色——然后会出现一个转折点，硬件终于赶上了普遍讨论的水平，接着硬件就能实现整个...

But anyway, what what I'm getting at is, like, it it obviously, it's like I feel like, especially in this sector, like, there's a lot of talk and, like, the origins of something, which obviously you were a big part of, and then there's the that inflection point where the hardware catches up with the with the the general discussion, and then the hardware enables a whole Piece of the

Harbor。我们现在正达到一个很棒的血液酒精浓度点。

Harbor. We're getting to a great blood alcohol content point now.

你知道，硬件。但硬件现在终于跟上节奏了，未来几年你会看到很多我们曾认为不可能的东西真正应用到穿戴设备上。没错。

You know, the hard the hardware. But the hardware is finally up to speed now to where, like, you're gonna see in the next few years, like, a lot of this stuff that we thought was impossible actually make it into devices that we wear. Well, exactly.

坦白说，问题一直在于数据输入。因为设备很烂——或者不该说烂，而是非常原始——只能捕捉加速度计数据。而其他所有生物特征数据，比如血液值，获取方式都极具侵入性。对吧？

And the issue has been up to this point, quite frankly, data entry. Right? Because you have shitty devices, or I shouldn't say shitty, but very primitive devices that only capture accelerometer data. And every other biometric data point that you want, say blood values, is really intrusive. Right?

你得让人上门服务，或者自己去Quest实验室之类的。

You have to have someone come to your house or you have to go to Quest Labs or

除非你是卡特尔的人。

Unless you're a Cutter.

确切地说，除非你是卡特尔的人，对吧？各位都该看看《秘书》这部电影，很棒，很硬核。

LabQuest rather or unless you're Cutter. Right? To watch The Secretary, everyone. It's a great movie. It's hardcore.

真是部好电影。但关键是，你必须接受这些侵入性——或者说非侵入性但具有侵入感的检测，才能获得想要的数据。当然，我也考虑到了时间因素。

Such good movie. But the the the point being that you you would have to have these intrusive or I should say not intrusive, but invasive, test done to get the data that you want. Sure. And I think time around that too.

完成检测需要时间。

It takes time to get the test done.

确实需要很长时间。所以我认为这个延迟大约是3到7天。而一旦这个难题解决，就像尼古丁贴片那样，你可以贴上一个能持续7天的追踪贴片——必须用尼古丁吗？不。

Does. It takes lot of time. So I think that, you know, the latency on that is, say, three to seven days. Whereas as soon as that nut is cracked, where you have something like a nicotine patch that you can slap on that's good for seven days that tracks does that have to be nicotine? No.

不，不是尼古丁。

No. No. It's not nicotine.

它就是个贴片。我还以为你说的是买一送一呢。不不。

It's just like a patch. It's like a I thought you're like, as a two for No. No.

买二送一，来点尼古丁。那玩意儿让我难受死了。尼古丁劲儿太大了。我...我们改天再聊这个吧。

As a two for, get nicotine. That stuff makes me so sick. Nicotine's so strong. I can't I I we can talk about that another time.

修剪一下你的脚趾甲。那个真的太长了。

Trim trim your toenails. That one is really long.

是啊，我知道很恶心。各位，我可是有猛禽爪的人。因为如果你靠近...

Yeah. They're gross. I know. I have talons, people. Because if you close to

那些简直就是龙爪。

me Those are literally like dragon talons.

我会说那个大脚趾。那是什么鸟来着，格雷厄姆？有什么见解吗？有种鸟叫食火鸡。对。

I'll be like That big toe. What's that what's that bird, Graham? Any any insight? There's a bird in cassowary. Yes.

一种澳大利亚鸟，基本上会用蹄子...用指甲把你的心脏撕开。

An Australian bird that will, like, rip your heart open with a with a with a with hooves, basically. Nails on

这个应该是

its This should be

你第一个节目的标题。那是我的播客《食火鸡》。妈的，根本没人会拼写这个名字。有点像17种不同的SEO版本，那太糟糕了。

the title of your first show. That's my podcast, the cassowary. Shit fucking no one will be able to spell it. It's a little bit like 17 different SEO versions. That would suck.

等等，让我...如果你能来个突然转折，但我们正在...

Hold on. So let me, if you could just a non sequitur, but we're

继续继续。如果你是颗彩色糖豆，会是什么颜色？

going going for it. You're a colored jelly bean. What color would it be?

去你妈的。哇哦。不是字面意思。比喻地说，我想让你去死。如果能外包一项日常任务，你会选什么？为什么？

Suck my balls. Wow. Not literally. Figuratively, I wanted to suck my balls. If you could outsource one of your daily tasks, what would it be and why?

因为你他妈没有任何借口。对吧？我是说，你混得不错，想买什么都能买。但你现在的日常重复性任务，日复一日的那些，有什么想外包的？为什么还没做？

Because you have no fucking excuse. Right? I mean, you're you're, like, you're doing well. You can pay whatever for whatever. But what of your current daily tasks, your repetitive tasks, daily or weekly, would you like to outsource and why haven't you?

说实话，我觉得没什么需要外包的了。好吧，我其实挺可悲的。

You know, I don't think there's anything else left that I have to I wanna outsource. Okay. I think I'm actually pretty sad.

好吧。那你抱怨什么又不愿外包的事？顺便问下，你的酒怎么样？很棒。

Okay. So what do you bitch about that you don't wanna outsource? How's your wine, by the way? It's great.

我觉得我在想...我还在努力中。我挺好的，大概三分吧。所以我想，你知道，我不确定我...

I think I'm I'm thinking I'm I'm still working on it. I'm good. I'm like I'm like a three. So I think that, you know, I don't know that I

格雷厄姆，你怎么样？还好吗？

Graham, how you doing? You good?

其实我觉得，要抱怨的话，就是没时间专注在我真正想投入的事情上。比如，我想学正规的园艺。我知道这听起来有点逊，但...你在开玩笑吗？

I I think that if anything, I complain that I don't have time to focus on some of the things I'd really like to get behind. Like, I I wanna learn how to garden properly. I know that sounds lame, but like Are you kidding me?

听起来很棒啊，哪种园艺？

That sounds amazing. What type of gardening?

嗯，我是说我现在有个菜园子。

Well, I mean, I've got a vegetable garden right now.

你们都知道威尔医生吧？记得他的花园吗？哦，威尔医生。

And both know doctor Weil. You remember his garden? Oh, doctor Weil.

威尔医生简直是我的偶像，老兄。

Doctor Weil is my freaking idol, man.

老兄，那家伙的花园太棒了。

Dude, that guy's garden is amazing.

所以我们很幸运能见到安德鲁·威尔博士。你可能在Whole Foods超市货架上见过那个留着大白胡子的家伙。这位医学博士看起来像圣诞老人，简直太神奇了。

So we we were lucky enough to go up to doctor Andrew Weil. If you you probably know him as the dude with the big white beard on all the Whole Foods stores shelves. MD looks like Santa Claus. He looks like Santa Claus. He's amazing.

我们有幸去了他在加拿大的家，那家伙简直就是大师级人物。他有个超棒的花园。我现在有专人帮忙打理花园，虽然懂些基础知识，但还想深入了解土壤成分之类的专业知识，只是实在抽不出时间。

We got lucky to go to his house, up in Canada and, like, freaking the dude is, like, the master. He had an amazing garden. Yeah. So anyway, yeah, I would like to learn more about that. I mean, think that like right now it's a very I have someone help out that comes by and like basically helps with the garden and I just I understand the basics, but I need to understand like, I wanna get to the level of like, understand the soil composition and a bunch of other things and like, you know, I just don't have the time to do it.

真希望我有时间。嗯...我觉得生活需要些小爱好，比如冥想啊园艺啊，可能还有那么几件事。我甚至想再去快餐店打工。

I wish I did. Mhmm. So I think there's a bunch of little hobbies. I think that you're getting that with the meditation, with the garden, like there's probably, you know, a handful of things. I'd like to work in fast food again.

详细说说？

Elaborate, please.

我...我有个叫RealityCamp的项目？我有这个...

I I have this RealityCamp? I have this

我们聊过RealityCamp了。

We talked about RealityCamp.

我有种特别奇怪的想法，想再去快餐店打工。

I have this really weird thing where I wanna go and work in, like, fast food again.

我们讨论过这个真人秀摄像头的事。

We talked about this reality cam.

直到有人走过来喊‘凯文’，我就会立刻逃跑。就像，我想我想...

Until someone comes up and is like, Kevin, and then I'm gonna run out. Like, I want I want

Chipotle点餐队伍。额外加牛油果酱。先生，要加1.5美元。

Chipotle line. Extra guacamole. It's a dollar 50, sir.

不，我是认真的。我确实想去做些那样的工作，比如...

No. I'm I'm being dead serious. Like, I would like to do do some of that, like,

我们聊过这个，白领工作带来的认知税。对吧？就是当你整天面对收件箱，不停接电话开视频会议时，那种对精神和灵魂的消耗。你根本没有...

just Well, we talked about this, like, the cognitive tax that comes along with white collar work. Right? In the sense that when you're in front of an inbox constantly and you're on the phone in conference calls constantly, there is a, like, mental and soul tax that You don't interact

与人交流的机会。这感觉就像...不在你的...

with people. You it's like it's not On your

那种不允许你与他人互动的工作。所以我们都有这种幻想，比如在Chipotle的生产线上工作，就像我会加入冥想一样。是的，这种情境。多么他妈的美好。

own that does not allow you to interact with other people. And so we both have this fantasy of, like, working on the Chipotle line in this, like I will join to meditative, Yeah. Context. How fucking awesome that Also,

我真的很想分析一下——我想了解那些经过精细调整的企业。我尊重这些企业的一点是...虽然我不一定认为Chipotle有多出色，听说他们的食材还不错。但像麦当劳这种地方，我永远不想在那里工作，却又有点想。我想去那里工作的原因，是想了解他们建立了什么流程才能达到这样的效率。

I would really like to just analyze I wanna understand businesses that are fine tuned and all about, like one of the things I I respect about these businesses, I don't necessarily Triple A is decent in that I heard their ingredients are pretty good, but like McDonald's, a place that I would never ever really wanna work at, but I kinda do. And the reason I wanna go work there is because I wanna understand what processes they put in place to get the efficiencies that they do. Yeah. And like, I really would like to like, you you gotta imagine that you're dealing with like 16 to 18 year old kids as a majority of your workforce. These are like the most unruly, crazy, spit in your hamburger type of like like, how do you manage that?

那可能是最难管理的人群。我16到18岁时也做过各种疯狂愚蠢的事。所以我猜他们肯定有...我甚至无法想象...

Like that's the kind of be the hardest segment of people to manage. Like, I know when I was 16 to 18, like I was doing all kinds of crazy stupid stuff. And so like, I would imagine that they have I wouldn't even think about

你16岁时做汉堡的经历。

burgers when you were 16.

不，你不会的。现在也不会。但我觉得当你观察他们的管理体系时——从监控员工的方式，到制作汉堡的标准流程（'做这个汉堡需要三个步骤'、'做那个汉堡需要七个步骤'）——我就是想了解这个流程，弄明白如何成功特许经营并扩展这种业务。

No, know. You wouldn't. You still wouldn't today. But like, I would imagine that like when you look at like what they have in place, everything from like, the ways that they monitor their employees to the the system they have set up to like, here are the three things you have to do to make this burger, here are the seven things you have to to make this burger. Like, I just wanna understand that process so I can figure out how someone would successfully franchise and scale a business like that.

纯粹是好奇。而且我觉得...服务他人这件事本身就有意义。这其实是件很酷的事，我不介意...

I'm just curious. Yeah. And I also think it would be, you know, there's something about like there's something about like actually serving people. Like, think that's like a cool thing to do. Like, I wouldn't mind yeah.

我想...实际上我很想...

I would like to and I actually like to

跟你聊聊这个。

talk to you about this.

我不介意贡献一些时间。实际上我想重新加入童子军，嗯。并且帮忙，因为我曾是鹰级童子军，从小在童子军长大。我觉得很怀念我父亲生前做的事——在我小时候，他是我们队伍里许多孩子的导师。我认为这非常重要，他也乐在其中。要知道，虽然没人明说，但在拉斯维加斯，童子军里有很多被单亲妈妈送来、缺乏父亲形象的孩子。对他们来说，这是生活中唯一能获得父亲般引导的途径。

I wouldn't mind like donating some of my time. I I actually want to join the Boy Scouts again Mhmm. And help out, because I I was an Eagle Scout, and I went I was in Scouts all growing up, and I I feel that, like, I really miss one of the things that my dad did when he was alive is that when I was a little kid, he was a mentor to a lot of other kids in our troop. And I think that it was really important, and he enjoyed it because, you have to understand that the Boy Scouts, even though there is one of the things that nobody ever really talks about is that, at least in Las Vegas, was that there was a lot of kids that were dropped off by their moms who didn't have father figures. And they were like, this is the only way they're gonna get, like, a father figure in their life.

那里有很多男孩从未见过自己的父亲。我父亲就像是他们的第二个爸爸。在他的葬礼上，有位他长期辅导的童子军成员——现在三十多岁了——说把我父亲视为第二个父亲。这太棒了。我想找机会重新参与其中，离开电脑，实实在在地帮助一些人。

And there were a lot of boys there that just, like, never knew their dads. And, like, my dad was, like, a second dad and like at my dad's funeral, there was like, you know, a couple people, well, one in particular that was a good long time friend of my dad's and now is in his, you know, late thirties that was like, you know, a scout that my dad kinda mentored because, you know, he considered him like a second father. And so That's awesome. You know, I I would like to to figure out like a way to like get back and involved in that and and, you know, actually do something outside of the computer and just get help help some people out.

兄弟，我陪你一起做。

Dude, I'll do that with you.

那会很有趣。太棒了。

That'd be fun. Amazing.

我今天看到海报去参加了冥想课，像匿名打卡一样。对，就是那样。

I, I saw a poster today. I went to a meditation class. My check-in, like, a clock's anonymous. Yeah. Exactly.

凯文正在做那个不雅的手势

Kevin's doing a jerk off motion with

他的左手。不。为什么我是左撇子，但我当时在要更多酒。

his left hand. Not. Why I'm left handed, but I I was asking for more wine.

全球通用的要酒手淫手势。于是我去了个冥想课，按凯文的说法，要是由他决定就该叫手淫课。那里有张女童子军海报，所以请别再提手淫了，上面写着——说真的今天这海报启发了我。是张这妞在...抱歉，'妞'这词你们懂的，去你们的。

The universal more wine jerk off gesture. So I went to a meditation session, I e as Kevin would have it, if it were up to him, a masturbation session. And there was a poster for the girl scouts, so no more masturbation references, please, which said, and I was really actually inspired by this today. It was this it was a picture of this chick doing sorry. Chick what you know, fuck you guys.

'妞'这词挺带劲。海报上是这个超酷的妞在练跆拳道，来个高踢腿，配文是'克利奥帕特拉18岁就统治埃及了。你在干嘛？'

Chick is fun. It was a picture of this this, like, badass chick doing Taekwondo and doing, like, a high kick, and it said, Cleopatra ruled Egypt when she was 18 years old. What are you doing?

哇靠，这标语真硬核。确实。确实。而且它

Oh, damn. It was That's strong. Yeah. Yeah. And it

是张女童子军海报。

was a Girl Scouts poster.

而我

And I

当时就想：靠，这海报真棒。现在觉得自己像个懒鬼。我得去干点正事。不过确实很励志。

was like, fuck. That is a good poster. Now I feel like a lazy asshole. I need to go do something. But it was very inspiring.

而且，我觉得那确实是一个你能产生巨大影响力的领域。对我来说，我一直以为自己会成为九年级或十年级的老师，因为那对我来说是个关键时期——当时我正在决定人生方向，身边有很多不良影响可以选择，

And, I feel like I feel like that's a place where you could have a huge amount of impact, certainly. And, for me, you know, I always thought I was gonna be a nine ninth or tenth grade teacher because I felt like that was a really critical time for me where I was deciding where my life was gonna go and I had a lot of bad influences to choose from and

很多

a lot

也有很多好的影响可以

of good influences to

选择。说真的，九年级啊，太关键了。就是那个阶段。特别关键。

choose from. Actually, ninth grade, man, so key. That's the one. So key.

所以我总想着要回去教九到十年级

And so I thought I was always gonna go back and teach ninth to tenth grade

或者十年级。顺便说一句，你会是个超棒的老师。

or one You'd be an awesome teacher, by the way.

应该去做的。会乐在其中的。你知道，我总以为自己会走上那条路，结果后来书籍、博客、这些那些的，一切都成了教学的载体。

Should do it. Would enjoy it. You know, I always thought I was going to and it just turned out that the books and the blog and this and blah blah blah, everything everything came up as a vehicle for teaching.

我有个想法想快速分享一下。很多人都在讨论这个非学校教育运动

Have you so here's one thing I just wanna throw out there real quick. There's a lot of people talking about this unschooled movement

嗯。

Yeah.

就是那种开源式学校，孩子们可以自主选择不同的课程，按照自己的节奏学习。你有没有考虑过制作一些类似在线课程的节目？只要遵循非学校教育的原则，你基本上可以为同龄人创建自己的课程。

Where it's like open source school, like, where, like, the kids can pick, like, the different classes and and their own kind of, like, at their own leisure. Have you considered doing, like, you could put out episodes that are like some courseware and the class online that, like, you know, that would as long as you adhere to, like, some of the unschooled stuff, like, you could basically create your own class for the same Yeah. You know, age group.

我对这个想法持开放态度。格雷厄姆，我想听听你的看法，凯文也是。但我觉得——再次声明这是从男性视角出发——对我影响最大的人往往是那些直接告诉我‘事情就该这么做’的男性，比如摔跤教练或某些学科老师，他们给了我缺乏的结构性指导。

I'd be open to doing that. Graham, I'd be curious to get your thoughts on this, Kevin too. But I feel like the the figures that and, again, speaking as a male, and so this may be unique to men or to me, but many of the people who had the biggest impact on me were males who were just like, here's the fucking way it is, and, like, this is the program we're gonna follow, whether that was wrestling coaches or teachers in specific subjects who gave me structure that I lacked. Right? So

你需要多一点纪律性。你需要一些

You needed a little bit more discipline. You needed a little bit

更多的...我认为要成为好领导，首先必须学会如何做一个好的追随者。

more I think it's I think it's very I think that in order to be a good leader, you have to learn how to be a good follower first.

感觉你刚才引用了一句名言吧？

I feel like that's a famous quote that you just took from somewhere.

我可能从别人那里偷来了这个观点。但我的信念是，学会在他人手下做一个好的追随者、门徒或士兵，对他们日后成为领导者是非常有用的训练。我不认为这对15岁的我有什么好处。我能非常清楚地指出14、15、16岁那段时间，我很幸运地遇到了一些对我的成长有巨大影响的人。在那个阶段，我觉得自己需要好的引导。

I may have stolen that from someone. But the, but that's that's I mean, that's my belief is that learning to be a good follower or disciple or soldier underneath someone else is very useful training for them being a leader later. And I don't think that it would have been a service to me as a, say, 15 year old. And I can I can very clearly identify this, like, 14, 15, 16 year old period where I was very lucky to encounter certain people who had a huge formative impact on my development? In that period, I feel like I needed good guidance.

我需要好的领导者。我不需要——现在回想起来也不想要——有人对我说‘你自己决定想做什么’。我不知道，也许是我太天真，但我真的觉得那时候需要有人教我如何遵循一个好的结构，而不是自己摸索。你怎么看？

I needed good leaders. I didn't need I didn't need nor would I have, in retrospect, wanted someone to say, you decide what you want to do. I don't know. Maybe that's me being naive, but I I really feel like at that point in time, I need someone to show me how to follow a good structure as opposed to admit my own. What are your what are your thoughts?

我觉得每个人都不一样。当然，那种方式可能更传统一些。我是说，现在就是这样。对吧？就像人们说的，这是你必须上的课。

I think everyone's different. I think that certainly that that approach is is one that, is probably a little bit more traditional. I mean, that's the way things are today. Right? Like, people are saying, like, this is the class you have to take.

这是你必须做的事

This is the thing that you have

我是说，但四年本科做那些狗屁事情是不一样的。我完成了学业，拿到了普林斯顿的学位。很好很棒。但有很多白痴也从普林斯顿和其他常春藤学校毕业，人们却因为简历上有这个就觉得我聪明，这很可笑，但现实就是这样。我觉得那是四年时间，而有一个好的欧比旺·克诺比则不同。

to I mean, but the but there's a difference between taking, say, four years of undergrad doing all the fucking bullshit. I mean, I you know, and I finished, and I got my degree from Princeton. Great and fantastic. And there are a lot of fucking retards who graduate from Princeton and every other Ivy League school, but people think I'm smart because I have that on my resume or whatever, which is silly, but that's the way it is. I think there's that, which is four years versus having a good, like, Obi Wan Kenobi.

我确实认为...是的。从出生就成为自己的欧比旺·克诺比是很难的，中间需要有个人在你15岁傲慢自大的时候管教你——可能这不适用于女性，我不是女人所以不好说，但每个15岁的小伙子都觉得自己什么都懂。你明白我的意思吗？

And I I do think Yeah. It's hard to go from, like, being born to being your own Obi Wan Kenobi as opposed to having someone in between who really puts you in check when you're just being an arrogant prick as a 15 year old, which like, perhaps it's not applicable to females. I can't speak to that because I'm not a woman, but, like, every 15 year old dude thinks he knows everything about fucking everything. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

你需要一个长辈对你说‘不，很好，我很高兴你有自信，但让我告诉你这玩意儿到底怎么运作。我会把你逼到极限，你觉得你做不到，但我觉得你可以，所以我会继续逼你’。我记得我有位特别的导师巴克斯顿先生，他是个非常非常了不起的人。

And you need, like, you need an elder to just be like, no. That's great. I'm glad you're confident, but, like, let me show you how this shit actually works. And, like, I'm gonna push you to the breaking point, and you don't think you can do it, but I think you can do it, so I'm gonna push you even further. And I remember just having, this particular mentor of mine, mister Buxton, who is an amazing, amazing, amazing guy.

以DonorsChoose的首席执行官兼创始人为例。我是说，你看看我的摔跤队，就能从中预见这些惊人的成就，而根据我目前的经验，无一例外，我都将其归功于巴克斯顿先生是个他妈的天才般的严厉摔跤教练。比如，你以为自己能做七个？他会说，不，不行。

The CEO of DonorsChoose, for instance, and founder of DonorsChoose. I mean, you just you look at my wrestling team and you can just you can telescope them out to these amazing outcomes and all of them, without exception in my experience so far, I attribute it back to mister Buxton being a fucking, like, brilliant hard ass in wrestling. Like, he would not you thought you could give seven? He'd be like, no. No.

不，你能做十个，他会把你逼到极限。

No. You can give 10, and he would just push you to the breaking point.

而且

And

每当我在生活中遇到困难时，我就会回顾高中时的经历。我会想，好吧，这比巴克斯顿先生逼我做的事更难吗？不，并没有。

that was just and whenever I whenever I face anything that is difficult in my life, I look back on my experience when I was high school. It's like, alright. Is this harder than what mister Buxton pushed me to do? No. It isn't.

所以，我能做到。

Therefore, I can do it.

我认为关于选择自己的道路有件事值得一提，但我觉得一旦选定了方向，在那个特定领域里有个严厉的导师完全没问题。比如你说想学计算机科学，完全可以有个狠角色督促你做到最好。对吧？我深有同感。

I think there's there 's something that need be said about, like, choosing your own path, but I don't think I think that once you've chosen that path, there's there's I agree that, like, you can there's no reason why you can't have a hard ass under that particular, like, vertical of whatever you've chosen. Right? Like, you say, okay, I wanna get into computer science, like, you you can have a badass, like, hard ass in computer science that, like, drives you to be the best. Right? Like, I feel the same way.

就像我在健身房请教练一样——为什么？因为我会把自己逼到

Like, I have a trainer at the gym and why? Because I'll push myself to

如果让我自己来，顶多使出六分力。

a freaking six if I'm left to my own devices. If I go in with

要是跟着教练练，我会拼到十一分力，练完浑身酸痛得几乎爬不回车里，懂吗？对。所以我同意他的说法。为什么是爬回车里？

the trainer, I'm going 11 and walking out of there sore as hell and can barely limp back to my vehicle, you know? Right. And so like, I I I agreed To his vehicle. Why is that? Back to your vehicle.

别这样。我不想说小摩托，因为我真有辆小摩托。

Come on. I didn't wanna say scooter because I have a scooter.

我喜欢'车'这个说法，很...

I like vehicle. It's very

我都是...

I take

骑着小摩托

a little scooter

往返健身房的。这样效率高。我有辆蠢萌的...

to and from the gym. It's efficient. I got a stupid I

就喜欢你在健身房练得超级壮实然后套上件背心的样子，不过

love that you get fucking, like, super jacked at the gym and then jump on a vest but

不，我真的很尴尬因为选错了颜色。我买了件该死的金色背心，丑爆了。

No. I'm really embarrassed because I got the wrong color. I got a freaking gold vest but it's so ugly.

老兄，真有胆。就像在伊比萨岛有个胖家伙穿着丁字裤到处晃悠那样离谱。

Dude, that's ballsy. It's like being the fucking fat guy in like Ibiza wearing the fucking There is a man thong just walking around.

我本来想要黑色的，多莉不喜欢黑色，然后她说金色不错。我就想，嗯，金色是还行。

I wanted black and Dory didn't like black and then I was like and she's like, gold's nice. I'm like, yeah, gold's kinda nice.

结果我最后买了那件金色的。

And I ended up getting the gold one.

谁想要金色滑板车啊？太糟糕了。

Who wants a gold scooter? It's the worst.

这非常...自信，我喜欢

That's very, confident. I like

那个。总之。

that. Anyway.

好吧。所以，我的意思是，如果你能找到一位导师，我们不会花太多时间。但如果你能找到某种类型的导师，你觉得你需要什么样的导师？

Alright. So so, I mean, if the if you could find a mentor, we're not gonna do too much longer. But if you if you could find a mentor of some type, like, what type of mentor do you think you need?

你知道，我认为对我来说，关键是找到一个能填补我短板的人。我觉得当你想要经营一家企业或开始新事物时，你能做的最好的事情——这也是我年轻时二十出头创办DIG时学到的重要一课——就是埋头专注于产品。因为那是我熟悉且擅长的事情。我几乎对其他所有商业环节都视而不见，无论是财务、运营、招聘、解雇还是规模化。那些我不懂的部分，我就假装它们不存在，雇别人来处理，只专注自己最擅长的领域。

You know, I think that it's it's for me, it's it's finding someone that fills in the gaps. I think that there is you know, when when you wanna run a business or you wanna start something new, the the best thing that you can do, and the thing that I kind of like was, I would say that one of the big learnings that I had when I was a lot younger in my early twenties and started DIG was that I put my head down, I put my headphones on, and I said, I'm gonna focus on product. Because it was the thing that I was comfortable with, and it was the thing that I understood, and I knew how to do well. I kind of, you know, closed my eyes to every other aspect of the business, whether it was financials, whether it was running the business, whether it was hiring, firing people, whether it was, you know, scaling, like there was a bunch of pieces that I just was like, I don't understand those, I'm gonna close my eyes and pretend they don't exist, I'm gonna hire other people to run them and I'm going to just focus on what I know best.

现在回想起来，我可能会坦诚面对自己的不足，主动寻找能帮助我的导师。过去十年我学到最重要的一课就是：承认自己不懂某件事并不丢人。你可以选择不懂装懂然后搞砸，也可以选择承认一次、学会它、继续前进，成为更全面的人，真正认真对待创业。作为创始人，你不能只擅长一件事，必须理解从A到Z的全貌，至少要有足够知识做出明智决策。

In retrospect, I would probably go in and say, well, I know for a fact, I would be honest with myself about what I don't know and go and absolutely try and pair up with mentors that can help me out. I think if anything that I've learned in the last, you know, ten years of doing this is that there is no shame in admitting that you don't understand something because you can either fuck it up, and that's when you act act like you understand something and you actually don't. Or you can admit it one time, learn it, and then move on and become a better person and just more well rounded and actually, you know, get serious about building a business. Like, there's there's you can you you if you ever gonna be a founder and you're gonna run that business, you have to understand that you can't just be good at one thing. You have to understand the whole gamut, the a to z, and and at least have enough knowledge to be able to make an educated decision around certain things.

我觉得当时的我非常不成熟，总是逃避不懂的事情。直到今天，在财务等方面我还有很多不明白的地方，比如——

And I think that I was very, immature, and I I hid from the things that I didn't understand. And so even today, there's a lot of things I still don't understand, when it comes to finance, like

你现在最不擅长什么？我是说，如果能凭空召唤一位完美导师，你最想提升哪些方面？

What are you worst at right now? I mean, what if if you could conjure the perfect mentor from the ether, like, what what are the things that you would want to most improve upon?

就目前而言，我虽然能读懂法律文件但绝非专家。律师总喜欢在融资文件里埋些奇怪的条款和陷阱，作为风投必须仔细审查这些条款对公司的影响。就在今天，我遇到一个从未见过的条款，我以为是某个意思，结果完全理解错了。我们的律师特意提醒我说：'你确定理解正确了吗？这其实指的是...'

I think that for me, currently, it you know, I am decent at reading legal documents, but I'm by no means a pro. And so like, there's a lot of little weird things that attorneys like to throw on these little curveballs and weird things into financing documents that as a VC, have to go through and pour through and like look at, you know, certain terms understanding how they might impact the company. And like even today, there was a term that I had never seen in a document. I thought it meant one thing, and it actually meant something else. And our attorney like I'm ed me and she's like, do you actually realize that this means this and not this?

我当时就想，天啊，我完全不知道这事。谢谢你。这真的太棒了。我根本没想到如果我们决定做x、y和z，真的会影响到我们。所以，你知道，就像坐下来然后问，你能解释下这些事吗？

And I was like, oh shit, I didn't know that. Thank you. Like, that was awesome. Like, I had no idea it really would impact us if we ever decided to do x, y, and z. And so, you know, just just like sitting down and and saying, like, can you explain these things?

这需要时间，你知道，就像，你不能指望了解每个业务的每个小细节，特别是因为领域这么多... 你不可能去读个学位，然后精通商业、金融、市场营销所有这些不同领域。能拿一个学位就不错了，如果真能拿到的话。

And and it just takes time, you know, and it's it's like, it's something that that you can't be expected to to know every little facet of every business, especially because there's so many diff like, don't go and get a degree and, you know, business and finance and marketing and, like, all these different areas. You get one degree if that Yeah.

更何况那些课程都不会教你如何分析风险投资协议。

Plus none of those teach you how to analyze venture capital agreement.

哦，确实。这点毫无疑问。

Oh, yeah. No doubt about that.

我是说，有本很好的书。我记得叫《风险投资协议》，作者是布拉德·菲尔德和他的合伙人杰森。发生什么了？抱歉。

I mean, there's there is a very good book. I believe it's called Venture Deals by Brad Feld and his partner, Jason, I believe it is. What's what's happening? Sorry.

我刚喝了一口，还以为是水。

I just drank that. Thought it was water.

不，那是红酒。这本书非常擅长向人们介绍风险投资的一些常见术语和初创企业融资协议的基本知识。除此之外还有什么？哦对了，我们还有那个冥想的事。

No. It's wine. Which is very good at introducing people to some of the common terms of venture capital and just general startup finance agreements. Outside of that, what else? So we got that meditation.

导师方面。

Mentor wise.

是啊。我是说，冥想、园艺这些。你知道吗，我还要说的是，有个发泄渠道真的很重要，可以是你的配偶，也可以是你知道的...这挺有趣的。就像是在尝试...我是说，我们现在聊得很深入了。你想继续吗？

Yeah. I mean, the meditation, the gardening. Know, the other thing I will say is it's really good to have an outlet to just vent, and that can be with your spouse, that can be with you know, it's funny. It's like, it's trying to, you know I mean, this is we're getting really deep here. Do you wanna keep going?

我是说，我觉得你也是这样，兄弟。认识你这么久，你是个比较封闭的人，我也是。你会隐藏一些情绪，把它们压抑着...但是

Let's do I mean, it's it's one of those things where I think that you're like this too, dude. Having known you long enough now that, like, you are a kind of a closed off person, you know, and and so am I. And that, like, you know, you hide some emotional stuff and you keep it like But

你对好人太好，不这样他们反而会害死你。我

you do good people will fucking kill you if you don't. I

是啊。但是，你知道，就像是

mean Yeah. But, like, also, you know, it's like

我是说，面对Valley Wagon那些破事，你如果不防备就会被整得很惨。不，你需要一定程度的自我保护。不。

I mean, just dealing with, like, Valley Wagon shit, you'll get fucking slaughtered. No. You don't have some degree of protective No.

我知道。我知道。但我想说的是，理解能够自由向伴侣倾诉、或找人聊天、或有个好兄弟、甚至寻求咨询的价值。有个渠道去获得不同方面的真实反馈，我认为是非常健康的事。是啊。

I I know that. I know that. But I'm saying, like, understanding the value in being able to freely vent to a significant other or to talk to someone or have like a good bro or even like seek counseling or whatever it may be. Like having an outlet to be able to go out there and, get gut checks on different things, I think is a really healthy thing. Yeah.

对我来说，在湾区有一些很好的朋友，比如你，我们之前聊过很多深刻的话题。我和Prager还有其他一些朋友也这样交流过。我认为拥有这样的关系是非常健康的事，某种程度上他们就像导师。你懂我的意思吗？

And so like, you know, for me, like, I've had some some good friends, in in the Bay Area that like, you know, like you, for example, we've talked about a bunch of deep stuff before. I've I've done that with Prager and some other friends and things like that. And I think that, like, just having those, I think, is a really healthy thing. And so, like, those act as mentors in a way. You know what I mean?

我觉得，你的密友某种程度上可以充当导师的角色。

Like, I think that, like, your close friends, like, that can act as as mentors.

那么我有个问题要问你。最近——这是我之前从未提过的——我大约两三个月前第一次去看了心理医生。我发现和一个完全不带偏见的人交谈非常有帮助。起初我觉得这是一种逃避，因为去看心理医生像是承认自己软弱。

So here here is a question for you. So I've I've recently this is nothing I've talked about before, but went to a therapist for the first time, maybe two or three months ago. And I found it extremely helpful to speak with someone who is completely non biased. And I viewed it as a bit of a cop out in the beginning because I felt like it was a it was a an admission of weakness to go to Sure. A therapist.

绝对是的。

And Absolutely. Yes.

就因为这个原因

For this for this

同样原因我也从未服用过抗抑郁药物。虽然我生活中确实遇到过这类问题，但我从未服用过百忧解或任何SSRI类药物，因为我觉得这是示弱的表现，我应该能用其他方式应对。嗯。

for the same reason that I haven't used mean, I'm not antidepressant. No. Like, I've never used antidepressants even though I've I've dealt with that shit in my own life. Like, I've never taken Prozac or any, like SSRIs or anything like that because I feel like it's it's an admission of weakness and that I should be able to deal with it in other ways. Mhmm.

所以我从未真正去看过心理医生，很多人可能称之为商业教练之类的来掩饰。但这次去看了心理医生后觉得很有帮助，却再没去过第二次——尽管第一次咨询就让我受益匪浅。这是为什么

So I'd never gone to a therapist per se, and many people might call it a business coach or whatever just to hide the fact. But went to this therapist, found it very helpful and have not gone to a second session. Even though I found the first session extremely helpful. Was why

是吗？是不是事后你会觉得，天啊，我做不到。因为这件事带有污名。

was it? Was it you just felt like afterwards you're like, oh god, I can't. Because there's a stigma attached to that.

我根本没多想。我就是觉得，我他妈太忙了，不行。我不会去做的。但为什么不呢？没有理由拒绝啊。

There was there was no overthinking it. I was just like, I'm fucking busy, like, no. I'm not gonna do it. So Why not though? There's no reason not to.

有意思，你居然提到这个，

It's funny. You should mention that, like,

你知道吗，我今天做了两小时物理治疗，因为我搞伤了右肩膀。对吧，太疯狂了

You know, it's like I did two hours of physical therapy today because I fucked up my right shoulder doing Right. Crazy

我觉得

I think

我们需要像对待

we need to treat our brains

那样对待大脑。就像你需要把它当作另一块需要锻炼的肌肉，你得明白，这其实是件积极的好事。真希望有个更随性的心理治疗师。

like that though. Like, you need to treat treat it like another muscle that you would work out, and you need to figure out, like, you know, that that's actually a good positive thing. What I wish there was a more casual therapist.

与某些事物无关的某件事

Something that didn't involve Something that

不像那些会有的情况，比如一个朋友

didn't involve like those There's gonna be like a a like a friend is

去check.com看看。

Go check.com.

就像那种场景，你只是说'哦，是我来喝咖啡'。就像有个朋友打赌你会付钱给他们。

Like something where you're just like, oh, it's me for coffee. And it's like somebody that's just like a friend that bet you'd pay them.

Paidfriend.co.u 你

Paidfriend.co.u You

懂我意思吗？应该有种方式能让气氛轻松点，不至于那么...是啊。不。还有太多...

know what mean? There's gotta be a way to like lighten it up a little bit so it's not like Yeah. No. There's so

我觉得人们对'治疗师'这个头衔有太多心理包袱。是啊。所以这事永远不会发生。

much I think people have so much baggage associated with the title of therapist Yeah. That it never happens.

哦，毫无疑问，老兄。

Oh, no doubt, man.

这确实很有用，坦白说可能仅仅是因为我能听自己说上一个小时的话

It was just useful, and it may have been quite frankly just the fact that I was able to hear myself talk for an hour

是啊。

Yeah.

并且在没有朋友主观上试图帮助我的情况下把事情想清楚。让我想想。那么，根据你经历的一切和学到的一切，你会给20岁或25岁的自己什么建议？

And think through shit without a friend who was subjectively trying to help me. Let's see. So, what advice would you give to your, like, twenty or twenty five year old self, given everything that you've gone through and everything you've learned?

25岁的自己，我会说少喝点酒。这其实是个好问题。我还没想过...我是说，我们今天谈到的很多事，比如围绕自己寻找导师，以及要直面而非逃避不理解的事物。如果纯粹从商业角度来说，我会说你可以用更少的资源做更多的事。

20 or 25 year old self, I would say 25. I'd say drink a little bit less. That's a good question, actually. I I haven't thought about I mean, I I think a lot of the things that we talked about today about, surrounding yourself with mentors and understanding to to confront the things that you don't understand rather than hide from them. I think that, I would say that if it's from a straight business point of view, I would say that do you can do more with less.

我认为，当你开始看到一些成功时，总有种诱惑想要投入更多人力、服务器和人员来解决问题。但实际上，关键在于确保让合适的人担任合适的角色。我记得谷歌有个法则，可能记不太准确，但大意是10倍法则——一个合适岗位上的人能完成十个不合适岗位人员的工作量。

I think that, like, there's this temptation when you start seeing some success to, like, throw bodies and servers and more people at the problem. When in reality, it's like just making sure that the you have the right people in the right roles. I think they have this rule at Google. It's called, I'm gonna screw this up, but you get the gist that it's like the 10 x rule. And like the right person in the right role can do the work of 10 people in the wrong role.

所以他们有这样一个理念：如果能找到适合那个关键岗位的人，就能获得10倍的绩效。我完全相信这是真的。这就是为什么Instagram能用10个人就把产品发展到...我记得他们出售时用户数超过5000万还是多少。

And so like they they they've got this thing where, you know, if the if you can if they can fit that find that person for that right role, you'll get 10 x the performance. And I I totally believe that's true. I think that's, so that that you know, there's a reason why Instagram grew to, you know, I don't know when they sold was 50 plus million people or something like that using their product with 10 people.

你知道吗？凯文就像是个聪明的孩子。

You know? It's like Kevin's a smart boy.

那是，叫什么来着？对，凯文·斯特罗姆。没错，聪明的小伙子。

It's, what's that? Yeah. Kevin Systrom. Yeah. Smart dude.

但是，你知道我的意思，他当时

But, know I mean, the he was

表现得很好，整个团队都做得非常出色，这是显而易见的。那么好吧，最后一个问题，因为我想体谅大家的时间，各位听众。还有我们尊贵的凯文·罗斯，这次访谈的第三位绅士。最后一个问题。

good like the whole team did really well, obviously. What's, so alright. Last question because I wanna be sensitive to, obviously, everyone's time, you guys listening. The fine Kevin Rose, a third Esquire involved with this interview. Last question.

其实我才是第三个。

I am the third, actually.

真的吗？

Are you really?

是啊。但不是凯文，是罗伯特·罗斯，

Yeah. But not Kevin. Robert Rose,

我的名字。

my first name.

是的，嗯，

Yeah. Well,

我说对了。真有趣。你觉得我未来应该在这个播客中采访谁？有什么提名吗？很多人建议我采访UFC的达纳·怀特。

I got that right. That's funny. Who do you think I should interview on this podcast in the future? Any nominations? I've had a lot of people say Dana White of the UFC.

有意思。UFC的总裁，我当然很乐意采访他，很明显我是UFC的超级粉丝。

Interesting. President of the UFC, which, I'd totally be down for, obviously, big UFC fan.

我觉得，如果……那会很有趣，就是如果你能，对，我是说，你得跳出科技圈。显然湾区有很多科技人士，但我真正想听的是，因为你经常周游世界，总是出现在各种奇特的国家。对，你应该把那些文化带到节目里。哪怕你把不同采访片段拼接起来凑成半小时或四十分钟的内容，比如你在菲律宾或泰国时遇到某个做面条超棒的厨师，在街头做个五分钟的采访。

I think that, like, the thing that that that would be fun is if you just, yeah, I mean, you gotta get outside of tech. I mean, obviously, there's a lot of tech people, but in the in the Bay Area, but I think that the thing that I would love to hear about is if you as you because you travel the world so much, you're like always all over the place in weird crazy countries. Yeah. You you need to bring some of that culture to the show. And I think like even if you could like if you did something where you splice together a bunch of different interviews to fill out like a half hour, forty minutes, like if you were like, if you were in freaking The Philippines and you you are in Thailand and you met some phenomenal freaking like chef making amazing noodles and you're like, did a five minute like on the street interview Yeah.

聊聊他们的动力、使用的食材、他们热爱的生活。我觉得你见识过那么多有趣的事物，我很想稍微体验一下。对，那会很酷。就像

About like what drives them, what they use in their ingredients, like what they love about their life. Like, I think that like, just like you you see so much interesting stuff like that, that I I would love to get a little taste of that. Yeah. That'd be cool, know. It's like

会很有趣的。

It'll be fun.

我知道你一向追求那种极简主义，疯狂沉浸于真实的文化体验。你不是那种普通的，比如去第三世界国家却住在四季酒店的人。对吧？对吧？你懂我意思吧？

I I know that you're you're always about like, the really minimalist, like, crazy, like, getting the actual feel of the culture. You know, like, you're not the the average, like, I'm just gonna go to, like, a third world country and stay in the Four Seasons. Right. Right. You know?

所以我觉得，把这种风格带入节目，引入一些美国本土之外的人物个性，可能会非常棒。

So I think that, like, like, bringing that flavor to the show and, like, like, bringing in some of those personalities that are outside of of what we get here in The States, I think would be maybe pretty awesome.

酷，我完全支持。各位，我想尊重Kevin、Graham和你们的时间，所以我要结束这次讨论了。

Cool. I am up for all of it. Well, guys, I wanna be respectful to Kevin's time and Graham's time and your time. So I'm gonna bring this to a close.

这期三小时的播客

This three hour podcast

该结束了。

is close.

播客到此结束。

Podcast to a close.

录了多久？四十五分钟。一小时四十五分。一小时四十五分，挺好的。

How long was it? Forty five. Hour forty five. Hour forty five. That's good.

那太长了。差不多有

That's long. That's, it's like half

播客时长的一半了。

the length of the podcast.

我觉得我们可能已经失去大部分听众了。如果你真的听到这里，请在推特上@Kevin Rose，加上标签#TimTimGoodGood。好吧。

I think we lost pretty much everyone. At reply me at Kevin Rose on Twitter with Tim Tim Good Good as the hashtag if you even listen to it this far. Alright.

我打赌最多会有四个人回复。大概两三个人吧。告诉我你的想法，我很想听听你的建议——你喜欢什么、不喜欢什么、想多听哪些内容、少听哪些内容。发邮件到tferris@tf e r r I s s。

I bet you there'll be, like, four people. It'll be, like, two or three people. And, let me know what you think. I would love to hear your suggestions, what you liked, what you didn't like, what you'd like to hear more of, less of. Send me a note at tferris, t f e r r I s s.

注意有两个s和两个r，代表双重虔诚、双重性感。开个玩笑。告诉我你的想法吧。感谢收听，希望能做更多期，但前提是你们喜欢。所以请告诉我你的意见。

It's two s's, two r's for double religious, double sexy. Just kidding. And let me know what you think. Thanks for listening so far and hope to do more of these, but only if you guys like it. So let me know what you think.

说到这个，凯文，干杯。

And to that point, Kevin, cheers.

干杯。谢谢邀请我。

Cheers. Thanks for having me.

合十礼。合十礼。下次再见。晚安，各位。

Namaste. Namaste. Until next time. Good night, guys.

如果你想收听更多《蒂姆·费里斯秀》，可以在iTunes上订阅播客，或访问4hourblog.com。

If you want more of the Tim Ferriss Show, you can subscribe to the podcast on iTunes or go to 4hourblog.com.

四小时博客点康姆。

F o u r h o u r b l o d dot com.

在那里你会发现一个获奖博客，大量音频和视频访谈故事，采访对象包括沃伦·巴菲特和林肯公园的麦克·信田等人。还有书籍以及更多内容。在Twitter上关注蒂姆，账号是twitter.com/tferris。就是t

Where you'll find an award winning blog, tons of audio and video interview stories with people like Warren Buffett and Mike Shinoda from Lincoln Park. The books plus much, much more. Follow Tim on Twitter at twitter.com/tferris. That's t

ferriss。

ferriss.

或在Facebook上关注facebook.com/timferris。下次见，感谢收听。

Or on Facebook at facebook.com/timferris. Until next time, thanks for listening.